From nick.wilkens at mnxsolutions.com  Thu Apr  1 12:11:48 2010
From: nick.wilkens at mnxsolutions.com (nick wilkens)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:11:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] JOB: Linux Administrator, Monroe MI
Message-ID: <r2mfd015c281004010911obf572f54s7538dfdd990e3a46@mail.gmail.com>

MNX Solutions is a Linux consulting company based in Monroe MI, we are
seeking an experienced Linux administrator to join our growing team.

Visit, http://www.mnxsolutions.com/jobs for further details.

Thanks,
Nick Wilkens
(734) 344-4942
nick.wilkens at mnxsolutions.com
http://www.mnxsolutions.com - Open Source Enterprise Services


From box at blogdetroit.com  Wed Apr  7 19:50:00 2010
From: box at blogdetroit.com (marytee)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:50:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Rochester Linux and Unix Enthusiasts Monthly Meetup April 21
In-Reply-To: <4145b6791003261247k1b491635p7f991d56287d4d65@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100316205458.GF3557@grossmeier.net>
	<4145b6791003261247k1b491635p7f991d56287d4d65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BBD1A28.7010306@blogdetroit.com>


To Anyone up in the Rochester /Troy area 

The April Meetup of the Rochester Linux and Unix Enthusiasts will take 
place here:

Panera Bread Company 
<http://www.meetup.com/asternix/venue/233047/?eventId=13119030&popup=true>
823 E Big Beaver Rd
Troy, MI 48007
(248) 526-0822

Wednesday April 21 at 7PM

Here is a link to the meetup page

http://www.meetup.com/asternix/calendar/13119030/

Googlemaps link: *http://tinyurl.com/ybywbdz*

This is a relatively fledgling group, looking to grow.  If you're 
interested, sign up on the meetup page.

Thanks,


Mary


From otakurider at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 20:14:32 2010
From: otakurider at gmail.com (Gmail-otakurider)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 20:14:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Droid report
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E0370492B56F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E0370492B56F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <4BBD1FE8.6040908@gmail.com>

 I will concur with the writeup. Had my Droid for over a month and am
loving it better then the iphone.
Now that the 2.1 update in out and installed I find it is much faster in
all functions from scrolling to typing.
Also the pinch and zoom on the default browser is a welcome addition. I
would like more menu screens but
I am getting used to only adding really wanted apps. If you pick up the
charging station it will give another micro
USB connector so that will be nice. A main point I don't like is the
fact all my contacts are on Google. Having a palm 700p
previous I do like the idea of only having the contacts on the laptop
and the phone only.

As the appstore is expanded daily and the apps are of good quality and
quantity. Multi-app stability when switching from one to
another so far has never been a issue. I would recommend a wired or
wireless headset the phone does get a bit warm
after a while of talking. Having used the VNC/RDP client it is strange
to have the size of the screen but still able to see
what is going on on the other system. The app is not super stable but
usable for playing around. The SSH clients are
rock solid as well as the FTP client/server app. It has a very good
weather, twitter, facebook and Digg app.

A few sites to look into is droid-life and droid-forums (Google for
proper URL) these sites have great info on what is out there
and any issues.

Rooting Droid, still not sure if I will or now so will keep all posted.
I have been expanding a blog with my tips and ideas on blogger.



Thanks

Pat Baker


Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  I've had my Droid phone for close to a week, and figured I'd give a
> little report on it.
>
>  Hardware-wise, it's awfully good. The screen is beautiful. The camera
> takes decent pictures and good video. The speakers are entirely
> competent and the sound is good through headphones. The keyboard isn't
> quite as good as the rest of it, but it's perfectly serviceable, or will
> be once I've messed with the software a little. The micro-USB hookup is
> mildly annoying; I have a ton of mini-USB cables laying around, but only
> the micro-USB cable that came with the Droid, for now. (Anyone know a
> cheap source of micro-USB cables?)
>
>  The software is pretty good. Definitely some rough edges, but workable.
> The internet functions are solid: the browser's very usable, email works
> fine, etc. Had no trouble hooking up to my 802.11g WAP, etc. I was able
> to find SSH and VNC clients; haven't tried the VNC client yet, but the
> SSH client did well.
>
>  Downloaded a few games and toys, enjoyable enough. I've managed to move
> over my contacts and secured passwords from my Treo with some conversion
> tools. Still working on the calendar, but it looks doable - I found a
> Perl script to convert a Palm calendar to iCal format, and that should
> be importable once I remove some personal entries.
>
>  Video plays very well on this device. With an 854x480 screen, there's
> room for every single pixel on a DVD. I've put together some scripts
> that convert DVDs and videos for viewing on the Droid (which doesn't
> like the AVI or FLV formats but seems happy with MP4) and the results
> are a joy to behold. Commuting on the bus is going to be even more
> entertaining now. F/X blockbusters were a little anemic at 320x240 (to
> fit on the Treo's 320x320 screen) but on the Droid they look beautiful.
>
>  There are several programs that I need to write. First up, to my
> surprise, is a decent text editor. I figured out how to cut and paste,
> but none of the free text editors I've looked at support search or
> replace, nor jumping to a particular point in a file. Fortunately,
> development doesn't look too hard.
>
>  The second thing up is a modification to keyboard input. On the Treo,
> there was a utility called "KeyCaps" that sped up typing considerably.
> Hold a key for a brief time (I had it set to 1/4 sec) and you'd get the
> capital letter. Double-tap within a set time (again, 1/4 sec for me),
> and you'd get the punctuation character. Not having to chord keys on a
> small keyboard is very useful, and makes a surprising difference in
> typing speed and ease.
>
>  I want to make a client for my "Ostiary" program, of course, and an
> encrypted, secure diary/journal program.
>
>  After that, I figure it should be possible to port the old "Maelstrom"
> game (Asteroids clone from the original color Macs) without too much
> trouble. By the time I've got all the above under my belt, I should be
> ready to port a BZflag client that uses the accelerometers for
> steering...
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317
>
>    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right;
>         and if wrong, to be set right." - Carl Schurz
>
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>   



From az at delqn.com  Thu Apr  8 10:14:38 2010
From: az at delqn.com (Delyan Raychev)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:14:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] =?utf-8?q?any_GNU/Linux_Contributors=3F?=
Message-ID: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>

Are there any active GNU/Linux developers/contributors subscribed to this
list?

If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
e-mail.

This is the first step in an attempt to determine how much of the Free
Software revolution is actually fueled from the Detroit-Flint-AnnArbor
area.

Thank you!


From mark.stanislav at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 11:08:22 2010
From: mark.stanislav at gmail.com (Mark Stanislav)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:08:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
Message-ID: <315F66AC-B877-4F1D-9D24-A2FA5B9F9E39@gmail.com>

Could I ask what the purpose of your research is? Just interested.



On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Delyan Raychev <az at delqn.com> wrote:

> Are there any active GNU/Linux developers/contributors subscribed to  
> this
> list?
>
> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to  
> this
> e-mail.
>
> This is the first step in an attempt to determine how much of the Free
> Software revolution is actually fueled from the Detroit-Flint-AnnArbor
> area.
>
> Thank you!
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From az at delqn.com  Thu Apr  8 11:32:04 2010
From: az at delqn.com (Delyan Raychev)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 11:32:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] =?utf-8?q?any_GNU/Linux_Contributors=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <315F66AC-B877-4F1D-9D24-A2FA5B9F9E39@gmail.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<315F66AC-B877-4F1D-9D24-A2FA5B9F9E39@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfb81d9a8be05495eb578856d84186e9@delqn.com>

The purpose of the research is driven by the following event:

Less than a month ago I attended Libre Planet 2010
(http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/LibrePlanet2010).  It was inspiring and
eye-opening experience.  I also got a chance to attended a few sessions
with other GNU hackers ('hacking' as in developing/writing code for various
project, NOT stealing, breaching security or breaking laws)

Also - had a chance to visit a few hack-a-thons at MIT and was fascinated
by the community.

I found these communities and events to be very productive, inspiring,
encouraging and educational.  (Here is what an MIT hackathon looks like:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/linenfabric/4459037703/)

And since I have not been able to find similar community in the Metro
Detroit area - decided to ask and see if GNU/Linux developers exist at all
in the greater Detroit area.


Del


On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:08:22 -0400, Mark Stanislav
 wrote:
> Could I ask what the purpose of your research is? Just interested.
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Delyan Raychev wrote:
> 
>> Are there any active GNU/Linux developers/contributors subscribed to 
>> this
>> list?
>>
>> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
>> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to 
>> this
>> e-mail.
>>
>> This is the first step in an attempt to determine how much of the Free
>> Software revolution is actually fueled from the Detroit-Flint-AnnArbor
>> area.
>>
>> Thank you!
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Apr  8 11:41:35 2010
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:41:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03704A7DE56@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Delyan Raychev

> Are there any active GNU/Linux developers/contributors subscribed to this
> list?

Well, I wrote and maintain some software called "Ostiary": http://ingles.homeunix.net/software/ost/

It hasn't been updated recently, but it hasn't needed to be.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                      (313) 227-2317

 "If PacMan had affected us as kids we'd be running around in
 dark rooms, munching pills and listening to electronic music."
                          - iso

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.



From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Apr  8 22:13:52 2010
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:13:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>

2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
> e-mail.

I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:

Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner

TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman

TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10

They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 22:46:50 2010
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:46:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] DIYers Hack Windows Mobile Phones to Run Android
Message-ID: <r2pb02c40e91004081946s393cceafj12eef9f3f5831a45@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting way to recycle an old Windows phone:
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/windows-mobile-android/


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 23:12:24 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 23:12:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
>> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
>> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
>> e-mail.
> 
> I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
> 
> Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
> 

Why not just call it filerunner?

Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
name needs to begin with the letter j?


I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
for independent programs to all start with J...I just
don't get it.


> TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
> 

Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?

Why not just call it ViewMan?


> TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10
> 
> They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
> code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
> days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.
> 


From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr  9 08:56:19 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:56:19 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Fw: Metro Detroit Linux Users Group on CNN Airport
	Network/American Ai	rlines
Message-ID: <20100409.085619.25571.1@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>



---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: "Steven James" <sj at skyradionet.net>
To: "Raymond" <president at mdlug.org>
Subject: Metro Detroit Linux Users Group on CNN Airport Network/American Airlines
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:50:39 -0700

Time-Sensitive Material
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group

Hi Raymond,

Great news!  The rates for our upcoming edition of "The Innovators" including both radio and TV exposure have been lowered substantially.

We will produce a TV commercial for you to air multiple times on CNN Airport Network throughout 48 of the nation's busiest airports, as well as a talk radio interview to broadcast two full months on American Airlines reaching 8.4 million travelers starting at only $4,895.

For complete details, click http://www.skyradionet.net/cnn.

Please contact me asap as this offer will be sold out soon.

Steven James
Producer
Sky Radio Network
5320 Laurel Canyon Boulevard
Valley Village, CA 91607
818-232-7069 Direct
818-301-2085 Fax
sj at skyradionet.net
www.skyradionet.com

Producers of the #1 Talk Shows in the Sky and on the Web

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, copy, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.  To be removed from our invitation list, reply to this email stating your intent or click the following link: Unsubscribe me from this list
____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
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From smunro622 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 09:59:52 2010
From: smunro622 at gmail.com (Stuart Munro)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 09:59:52 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] DIYers Hack Windows Mobile Phones to Run Android
In-Reply-To: <r2pb02c40e91004081946s393cceafj12eef9f3f5831a45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <r2pb02c40e91004081946s393cceafj12eef9f3f5831a45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <w2v710dfd771004090659n4b0c1644yb3720f00e49d9c5d@mail.gmail.com>

i have a old motorola Q black i can donate is any one wants to try

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Interesting way to recycle an old Windows phone:
> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/windows-mobile-android/
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a "Yes"
merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
-- Mahatma Gandhi


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Apr  9 10:37:43 2010
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins II)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:37:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] DIYers Hack Windows Mobile Phones to Run Android
In-Reply-To: <w2v710dfd771004090659n4b0c1644yb3720f00e49d9c5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100409145232.97FC74C06B@impelind.com>

Sounds awesome. I have an old HTC Smartphone that I will have to see if I
can do that to.

If it can be done and works well... I might hold off on switching up to an
iPhone for a little while longer. (I'll still be getting an iPhone since it
has integration features with my car and iPhone specific apps available from
the manufacturer of my car.)

-Rob
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Munro
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:00 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Cc: LugWash
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] DIYers Hack Windows Mobile Phones to Run Android
> 
> i have a old motorola Q black i can donate is any one wants to try
> 
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Jeff Hanson 
> <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Interesting way to recycle an old Windows phone:
> > http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/windows-mobile-android/
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater 
> than a "Yes"
> merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
> -- Mahatma Gandhi
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From danno at umich.edu  Fri Apr  9 10:37:56 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:37:56 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>

Perhaps you should make use of the freedoms accorded to you
by the GPL and release your own versions, named like you want
them named.

On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 11:12:24PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Michael Corral wrote:
> > 2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
> >> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
> >> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
> >> e-mail.
> > 
> > I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
> > 
> > Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
> > 
> 
> Why not just call it filerunner?
> 
> Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
> name needs to begin with the letter j?
> 
> 
> I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
> suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
> for independent programs to all start with J...I just
> don't get it.
> 
> 
> > TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
> > 
> 
> Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?
> 
> Why not just call it ViewMan?
> 
> 
> > TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10
> > 
> > They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
> > code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
> > days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From fireblosom at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 13:34:02 2010
From: fireblosom at gmail.com (Michael Persello)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:34:02 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Officers meeting
Message-ID: <h2qcc6463331004091034nd8c7b29fv6c5967efdd25142a@mail.gmail.com>

Let's not forget that the officers meeting is at 10:30 am tomorrow before
our regular meeting.



Michael Persello


From raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 16:34:03 2010
From: raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com (Raymond S McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:34:03 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
	<20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BBF8F3B.3020907@gmail.com>


I don't think that a duplicate fork of a project just for the sake of a
better name would really contribute much to the free software environment.

Aaron asks a legitimate question. Not that I really care. Come to think
of it, the naming convention that Michael uses does have the affect that
alphabetized lists of of software packages *do not* sort by topic, or
purpose. This is a noticeable lack of convenience. Yes, most package
managers do provide a search feature. But they usually start with an
alphabetized list.



Dan Pritts wrote:
> Perhaps you should make use of the freedoms accorded to you
> by the GPL and release your own versions, named like you want
> them named.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 11:12:24PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Michael Corral wrote:
>>> 2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
>>>> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
>>>> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
>>>> e-mail.
>>> I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
>>>
>>> Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
>>>
>> Why not just call it filerunner?
>>
>> Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
>> name needs to begin with the letter j?
>>
>>
>> I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
>> suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
>> for independent programs to all start with J...I just
>> don't get it.
>>
>>
>>> TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
>>>
>> Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?
>>
>> Why not just call it ViewMan?
>>
>>
>>> TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10
>>>
>>> They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
>>> code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
>>> days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.
>>>
> danno
> --
> dan pritts
> danno at umich.edu
> 734-929-9770



From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 16:13:37 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:13:37 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
	<20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BBF8A71.4050806@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> Perhaps you should make use of the freedoms accorded to you
> by the GPL and release your own versions, named like you want
> them named.
> 

I'm just wondering why software authors prefix J or tk in
front of apps written in java and tk,  but we DON'T see
this sort of prefix the name with a letter signifying the
programming language for programs written  in Fortran,
Basic (any variant), Pascal, C, C++, Lisp, Simula, perl, etc.

Why is it that this is standard procedure for Java and TK,
but not for any other language...either compile or interpreted?

> On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 11:12:24PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Michael Corral wrote:
>>> 2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
>>>> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
>>>> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
>>>> e-mail.
>>> I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
>>>
>>> Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
>>>
>> Why not just call it filerunner?
>>
>> Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
>> name needs to begin with the letter j?
>>
>>
>> I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
>> suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
>> for independent programs to all start with J...I just
>> don't get it.
>>
>>
>>> TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
>>>
>> Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?
>>
>> Why not just call it ViewMan?
>>
>>
>>> TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10
>>>
>>> They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
>>> code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
>>> days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> danno
> --
> dan pritts
> danno at umich.edu
> 734-929-9770
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Apr  9 21:16:06 2010
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:16:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004092050100.2299@banana.sluggo.net>

2010-04-08, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
>>
>> Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
>
> Why not just call it filerunner?

Because that name was already taken. :) In fact, my program is pretty
much a Java clone of Filerunner, with some improvements.

> Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
> name needs to begin with the letter j?

Heh, I guess you're gonna hate the name of my Java xchat clone. :)

> I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
> suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
> for independent programs to all start with J...I just
> don't get it.

There are lots of Gtk+ apps that begin with g, Qt apps that begin
with q, Python apps that begin with py, etc.

>> TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
>
> Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?
>
> Why not just call it ViewMan?

Because I want people to know that it uses Tcl/Tk.

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Apr  9 21:29:51 2010
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:29:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <4BBF8F3B.3020907@gmail.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
	<20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BBF8F3B.3020907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004092118270.2299@banana.sluggo.net>

2010-04-09, Monsieur Raymond S McLaughlin a ecrit:
> Aaron asks a legitimate question. Not that I really care. Come to think
> of it, the naming convention that Michael uses does have the affect that
> alphabetized lists of of software packages *do not* sort by topic, or
> purpose. This is a noticeable lack of convenience. Yes, most package
> managers do provide a search feature. But they usually start with an
> alphabetized list.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that the name of
a program should begin with letters or words that indicate its
purpose? So how would "Firefox" or "vi" fit in with that?

Michael


From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr  9 22:19:23 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 02:19:23 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Officers meeting
Message-ID: <20100409.221923.12917.0@webmail14.vgs.untd.com>


Okay, sounds good to me.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Michael Persello <fireblosom at gmail.com>
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
Subject: [mdlug] Officers meeting
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:34:02 -0400

Let's not forget that the officers meeting is at 10:30 am tomorrow before
our regular meeting.



Michael Persello
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
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From tesral at wowway.com  Fri Apr  9 22:35:42 2010
From: tesral at wowway.com (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:35:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004092118270.2299@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>	<20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BBF8F3B.3020907@gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004092118270.2299@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <4BBFE3FE.2070807@wowway.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that the name of
> a program should begin with letters or words that indicate its
> purpose? So how would "Firefox" or "vi" fit in with that?
>   

It is one way to do it. Not saying it is the right way, should be done
or should not be done. However it is a valid reason to do it that way. 
Not everyone agrees.  If they did we would have MzFireFox and
MzThunderbird.  We do not.


-- 
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.

We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is
in it -- and stop there -- lest we be like the cat that sits down on a
hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again, and
that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one any more.
-Mark Twain
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org


From john_re at fastmail.us  Sun Apr 18 01:31:38 2010
From: john_re at fastmail.us (giovanni_re)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:31:38 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] Linux at BerkeleyTIP-Global meeting on Sunday April 18
 12N-3P, & April 27
Message-ID: <1271568698.8455.1370527791@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Come discuss Linux via VOIP. :)
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/voice-voip-conferencing

Hot topics: Ubuntu 10.04, Free Culuture, VOIP, Set up the web server &
mail list & asterisk/freeswitch on the BTIP box with Ubuntu 10.04?

Tues April 27 5-6P VOIP online meeting also.

http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/

Join the mail list, tell us what you're interested in.
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/mailing-lists


From petertheplumber at att.net  Thu Apr 15 17:42:46 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:42:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AOL IMAP
Message-ID: <20100415174246.031b9c4f@Nokia-N800-43-7>


Hi Everyone,
    I was very surprised to find out that AOL supports imap client
access. Indeed AOL has instructions on how to set up email clients to
get email <http://postmaster.aol.com/imap/>. I found this pleasantly
surprising recently, being able to set up a client to pull email in;
for a friend; rather than have to go to the web. Does anyone have any
knowledge about how it acts, compared to the other free services?
-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber
Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet


From petertheplumber at att.net  Fri Apr 16 06:49:00 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:49:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AOL IMAP
Message-ID: <20100416064900.1f850ae8@Nokia-N800-43-7>


Hi Everyone,
    I was very surprised to find out that AOL supports imap client
access. Indeed AOL has instructions on how to set up email clients to
get email <http://postmaster.aol.com/imap/>. I found this pleasantly
surprising recently, being able to set up a client to pull email in;
for a friend; rather than have to go to the web. Does anyone have any
knowledge about how it acts, compared to the other free services?
-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber
Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet


From raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 19:10:39 2010
From: raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com (Raymond S McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:10:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>

test


From skyefire at skyefire.org  Fri Apr 16 21:59:14 2010
From: skyefire at skyefire.org (David McMillan)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 21:59:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
Message-ID: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>


	I have never had this happen before on any of my other Linux machines, 
but this is the second time it's happening on this one, on installs of 
two different versions of Ubuntu.  So far, I can't find the culprit, or 
a way to fix this.

	I use this machine as a headless file server, so I keep almost nothing 
in the /home directory, which has its own 45GB partition on the boot 
drive.  All of the served drives are physically separate drives.

	And today, I logged in, and discovered that my /home directory was down 
to 0% free.  It was something more like 60% or better the other day. 
There's nothing in my /home directory but my own home, and lost+found, 
which is empty.

	I had about 2GB of working files in my home directory.  I eliminated 
them, and got back some free space according to df -h, although only a 
few hundred MB.  A few minutes later, df -h showed my /home partition to 
be back to 0% free.  But I don't have any programs running aside from 
the samba and ssh server daemons.  According to the Disk Usage Analyzer, 
my own home directory only has 92MB of contents.

	I'm stumped.  There's nothing that explains this.
I looked for ballooning log files in /var/log, but the total of all the 
log files was only a couple gigs.

	Since the unique thing about this machine vs my other linux boxes is 
that it's a server, my guess is that this is somehow related.  But I 
can't find *what* is eating up all the space in the partition.  Does 
this remind anyone of anything?  Or does anyone know of a good way to 
list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?



From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr 16 08:07:01 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:07:01 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Cloud computing unconference
Message-ID: <20100416.080701.26648.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com>

 
Cloud computing unconference:
http://www.cloudcamp.org/detroit
____________________________________________________________
Medicare 2010
Looking For Medicare Supplement Insurance? Request Your Free Info Kit!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bc8533ec21c92a3a3bst04vuc

From gib at juno.com  Sun Apr 18 11:22:17 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:22:17 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100418.112217.25705.0@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>


I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.

http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html


____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 19 10:57:03 2010
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Network mapping SW
Message-ID: <29816.26946.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm not sure if my post made it.
?
What network mapping software is out there? 
?
Is there one that creates a visio drawing?
?
?
David C. Lane 


      

From gib at juno.com  Sun Apr 18 16:23:59 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:23:59 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] MDLUG: Tony as webmaster
Message-ID: <20100418.162359.19760.2@webmail03.vgs.untd.com>


Anyone know how we can get Tony set up as the webmaster for the MDLUG website?

____________________________________________________________
$13/Month Car Insurance?
Insurance deal just passed now allows you to get car insurance for $13
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb6a981c65b2eff85st03vuc


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 17:33:35 2010
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:33:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
Message-ID: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>

How can I get some simple stats from a data stream of numbers using R?

Here's what I would like to do:

$ seq 1 100 | stats.r
 Min.   :  1.00
 1st Qu.: 25.75
 Median : 50.50
 Mean   : 50.50
 3rd Qu.: 75.25
 Max.   :100.00

Where stats.r is an R script that returns simple stats on the data.

Here is what I am currently doing:

$ seq 1 100 > file.csv
$ R
> num <- read.csv("file.csv",head=FALSE)

> summary(num)
      V1
 Min.   :  1.00
 1st Qu.: 25.75
 Median : 50.50
 Mean   : 50.50
 3rd Qu.: 75.25
 Max.   :100.00

That works, but I'd prefer to pipe the data in rather than go through
the intermediary of a file or a named pipe.

Regards,
- Robert


From tony at bemushosting.com  Mon Apr 19 20:41:36 2010
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:41:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] test
In-Reply-To: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
References: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1271724096.4671.2.camel@tony-laptop>

Reply to the test

On Mon, 2010-04-19 at 19:10 -0400, Raymond S McLaughlin wrote:
> test
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug




From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Apr 19 20:57:55 2010
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:57:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
In-Reply-To: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004192052370.2428@banana.sluggo.net>

2010-04-15, Monsieur Robert Citek a ecrit:
> How can I get some simple stats from a data stream of numbers using R?
>
> Here's what I would like to do:
>
> $ seq 1 100 | stats.r
> Min.   :  1.00
> 1st Qu.: 25.75
> Median : 50.50
> Mean   : 50.50
> 3rd Qu.: 75.25
> Max.   :100.00
>
> Where stats.r is an R script that returns simple stats on the data.

You could do it like this:

R --vanilla --slave --args $(seq 1 100) < stats.r

where the file stats.r consists of these two lines:

num <- as.numeric(commandArgs(TRUE))
summary(num)


Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 21:03:30 2010
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:03:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
Message-ID: <q2sb02c40e91004191803r5f101989y8ba445d7dc4acba4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 9:59 PM, David McMillan <skyefire at skyefire.org> wrote:
> ? ? ? ?I had about 2GB of working files in my home directory. ?I eliminated
> them, and got back some free space according to df -h, although only a
> few hundred MB. ?A few minutes later, df -h showed my /home partition to
> be back to 0% free. ?But I don't have any programs running aside from
> the samba and ssh server daemons. ?According to the Disk Usage Analyzer,
> my own home directory only has 92MB of contents.
>
> ? ? ? ?I'm stumped. ?There's nothing that explains this.
> I looked for ballooning log files in /var/log, but the total of all the
> log files was only a couple gigs.
>

Use the lsof command and grep the output for your home directory.

> ? ? ? ?Since the unique thing about this machine vs my other linux boxes is
> that it's a server, my guess is that this is somehow related. ?But I
> can't find *what* is eating up all the space in the partition. ?Does
> this remind anyone of anything? ?Or does anyone know of a good way to
> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?
>

Use the "find" command.  Something like:
find /home -type f -exec ls -la '{}' \;

This will run "ls -la" against every file found.  Capture the output
to a text file.


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 21:48:18 2010
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:48:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
Message-ID: <z2h4145b6791004191848jad0e9c02x6a0ba26752668c0@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 9:59 PM, David McMillan <skyefire at skyefire.org> wrote:
> ? ? ? ?Since the unique thing about this machine vs my other linux boxes is
> that it's a server, my guess is that this is somehow related. ?But I
> can't find *what* is eating up all the space in the partition. ?Does
> this remind anyone of anything?

Yes.  A running process is writing to a file that has been deleted.
The process is still running and writing data to the file, but there's
no record of the file.  Here's an example of how to do that:

$ for i in {1..10000} ; do date ; sleep 1 ; done > foobar &
$ rm -f foobar
$ lsof -p $!

> Or does anyone know of a good way to
> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?

$ du -k /home/ | sort -n

Good luck and let us know how things go.

Regards,
- Robert


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 22:49:42 2010
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:49:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004192052370.2428@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004192052370.2428@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <p2k4145b6791004191949g725d090ei7d9e401f701bbb03@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> You could do it like this:
>
> R --vanilla --slave --args $(seq 1 100) < stats.r
>
> where the file stats.r consists of these two lines:
>
> num <- as.numeric(commandArgs(TRUE))
> summary(num)

Thanks, Michael.  That'll work in a pinch for small datasets.  Looks
like for larger sets I'll have to find some other way.

One way I've been exploring is piping a script to R, using bash's
here-document feature with variable interpolation.  Works even for 1
MM numbers:

$ cmd="seq 1 1000000"  ; { cat <<eof
summary(read.csv(pipe("$cmd"), head=FALSE))
eof
} | time -p R --slave
       V1
 Min.   :      1
 1st Qu.: 250001
 Median : 500000
 Mean   : 500000
 3rd Qu.: 750000
 Max.   :1000000
real 12.50
user 15.98
sys 0.26

I can then substitute various commands for the cmd variable.  Not
ideal, but will work.

Regards,
- Robert


From carl at carltm.com  Tue Apr 20 05:57:10 2010
From: carl at carltm.com (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 05:57:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
Message-ID: <f0a585114f0c692f89050bea706a2777.squirrel@www.carltm.com>

David McMillan wrote:
> this remind anyone of anything?  Or does anyone know of a good way to
> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?

To find 20 largest files at least 1 gig in size:
find /home -type f -size +1G -exec du -m {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20

To find 20 largest directories:
find /home -type d -exec du -sm {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20

c





From petertheplumber at att.net  Tue Apr 20 07:59:25 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 07:59:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] test
In-Reply-To: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
References: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100420075925.301502be@Nokia-N800-43-7>

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:10:39 -0400
Raymond S McLaughlin <raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com> wrote:

> test
> 
    Whew, I was worried I'd been excommunicated
-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber
Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet


From skyefire at skyefire.org  Tue Apr 20 08:16:43 2010
From: skyefire at skyefire.org (David McMillan)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:16:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <f0a585114f0c692f89050bea706a2777.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
	<f0a585114f0c692f89050bea706a2777.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
Message-ID: <4BCD9B2B.6060503@skyefire.org>

On 4/20/2010 5:57 AM, Carl T. Miller wrote:
> David McMillan wrote:
>> this remind anyone of anything?  Or does anyone know of a good way to
>> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?
>
> To find 20 largest files at least 1 gig in size:
> find /home -type f -size +1G -exec du -m {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20
>
> To find 20 largest directories:
> find /home -type d -exec du -sm {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20


	...I rebooted, and /home went back to normal size.  What.  The.  Heck. 
  I am completely baffled.  Happy, but baffled.

	Still, the last time this happened to me, using 9.04 on this same 
machine, rebooting most definitely did NOT fix this problem.  So I'll be 
keeping these posts for future reference.  Thanks, everyone.




From billings at negate.org  Tue Apr 20 08:39:22 2010
From: billings at negate.org (Jonathan Billings)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:39:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
In-Reply-To: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100420123922.GA16239@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu>

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 05:33:35PM -0400, Robert Citek wrote:
> That works, but I'd prefer to pipe the data in rather than go through
> the intermediary of a file or a named pipe.

I believe you can refer to "stdin" (I've also seen /dev/stdin) as the
file in scan:

% cat test.r 
#!/usr/bin/Rscript

num <- scan("stdin",quiet=TRUE)
summary(num)

% seq 1 100 | ./test.r 
   Min. 1st Qu.  Median    Mean 3rd Qu.    Max. 
   1.00   25.75   50.50   50.50   75.25  100.00 


-- 
Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org>


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Tue Apr 20 09:00:16 2010
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:00:16 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <4BCD9B2B.6060503@skyefire.org>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
	<f0a585114f0c692f89050bea706a2777.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
	<4BCD9B2B.6060503@skyefire.org>
Message-ID: <9FB6372000B099469B46478B643EE4690225D9527A@EXCCRVS1.mi.corp.rockfin.com>

This behavior describes exactly the scenario that someone else proposed of a file being created, written to, left open, and then removed and continuously written to.  Your best bet if this happens again is to 'lsof | grep /home' and or 'fuser -c /home' to find any processes that have files open on that filesystem.

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of David McMillan
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:17 AM
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition

On 4/20/2010 5:57 AM, Carl T. Miller wrote:
> David McMillan wrote:
>> this remind anyone of anything?  Or does anyone know of a good way to
>> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?
>
> To find 20 largest files at least 1 gig in size:
> find /home -type f -size +1G -exec du -m {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20
>
> To find 20 largest directories:
> find /home -type d -exec du -sm {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20


	...I rebooted, and /home went back to normal size.  What.  The.  Heck. 
  I am completely baffled.  Happy, but baffled.

	Still, the last time this happened to me, using 9.04 on this same 
machine, rebooting most definitely did NOT fix this problem.  So I'll be 
keeping these posts for future reference.  Thanks, everyone.


_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 10:56:16 2010
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:56:16 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
In-Reply-To: <20100420123922.GA16239@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu>
References: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100420123922.GA16239@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <j2u4145b6791004200756n20d9fd1esc8ffb926f5eb0e70@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 05:33:35PM -0400, Robert Citek wrote:
>> That works, but I'd prefer to pipe the data in rather than go through
>> the intermediary of a file or a named pipe.
>
> I believe you can refer to "stdin" (I've also seen /dev/stdin) as the
> file in scan:
>
> % cat test.r
> #!/usr/bin/Rscript
>
> num <- scan("stdin",quiet=TRUE)
> summary(num)
>
> % seq 1 100 | ./test.r
> ? Min. 1st Qu. ?Median ? ?Mean 3rd Qu. ? ?Max.
> ? 1.00 ? 25.75 ? 50.50 ? 50.50 ? 75.25 ?100.00

Perfect!  Rscript with -e and "stdin" were the trick.   Here's exactly
what I wanted to do:

$ seq 1 1000000 |\
time -p Rscript -e 'summary(read.csv("stdin", head=FALSE))'

       V1
 Min.   :      1
 1st Qu.: 250001
 Median : 500000
 Mean   : 500000
 3rd Qu.: 750000
 Max.   :1000000
real 11.07
user 10.55
sys 0.20

Thanks for all the replies.

Regards,
- Robert


From gib at juno.com  Tue Apr 20 11:26:34 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:26:34 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Message-ID: <20100420.112634.10148.2@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>

I'll be around.  I hope to stop in.  

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Greg Grossmeier <greg at grossmeier.net>
To: Michigan Ubuntu Local Community Team <ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:44:02 -0400

Here's the event:
http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/96/detail/

Please RSVP so we know how many people to expect.

Rock!

-- 
|       Greg Grossmeier |
| http://grossmeier.net |

-- 
ubuntu-us-mi mailing list
ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-mi
____________________________________________________________
TODAY: iPads for $23.74?
Special Report: Macbooks are being auctioned for an incredible 80% off!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcdc7f6b01d546376st05vuc

From gib at juno.com  Tue Apr 20 14:29:28 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:29:28 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Message-ID: <20100420.142928.14771.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>


Oh, I think Jorge (a member we see in the MUG.org meetings) is going to do a Ubuntu Q&A Friday April 30th 6:00 PM at Penguicon.  So, we can go directly from his presentatin to the bar.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
To: ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com
Cc: discuss at mug.org, mdlug at mdlug.org, ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:26:34 GMT

I'll be around.  I hope to stop in.  

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Greg Grossmeier <greg at grossmeier.net>
To: Michigan Ubuntu Local Community Team <ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:44:02 -0400

Here's the event:
http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/96/detail/

Please RSVP so we know how many people to expect.

Rock!

-- 
|       Greg Grossmeier |
| http://grossmeier.net |

-- 
ubuntu-us-mi mailing list
ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-mi


____________________________________________________________
TODAY: iPads for $23.74?
Special Report: Macbooks are being auctioned for an incredible 80% off!
QuiBids.com

____________________________________________________________
Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210


From mdlug at wowway.com  Tue Apr 20 16:16:33 2010
From: mdlug at wowway.com (Dean Durant)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:16:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <262184449.152481.1271794183691.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>

Hello, I've just finished reading Dan Bernstein's comments on what he calls the IPv6 mess. I think his points are valid. 

However, someone out there (IETF, IANA, ICANN, I don't know) obviously controls those Class E "reserved for future use" addresses. My idea is that while it was smart to reserve them, it's not smart to never use them. If now is not the time to use them, when will be? Is this an old idea, or not workable ? 

So I say, whoever controls those addresses should say, OK, we'll give you one, or two, or ten, but, by law (pass the law if needed), you must use them to route back and forth between IPv4 and IPv6. Give financial incentives if necessary. 

Only give them to the highest level providers. They then can turn around and charge a small premium (perhaps) for access to IPv6 in this fashion. People can still route directly from IPv6 to IPv6 on their own, but Bernstein has pointed out why this will never happen: there is no existing IPv6 infrastructure. 

http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/ipv6mess.html 

Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to IPv4. My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as makes sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all are there? 

However, I am not a networking professional. Just a curious bystander. But, if the U.S. Congress has stated that IPv4 exhaustion is a national security issue, and China *is* building an IPv6 infrastructure, maybe "natting forever" is not going to work. 

Thoughts? 


From jjn at nuge.com  Tue Apr 20 17:12:20 2010
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:12:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>

Greetings,

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, Dean Durant wrote:

> Hello, I've just finished reading Dan Bernstein's comments on what he
> calls the IPv6 mess. I think his points are valid.

   Be carefull not to drink the refreshments at that KoolAid stand...

 
> However, someone out there (IETF, IANA, ICANN, I don't know) obviously
> controls those Class E "reserved for future use" addresses. My idea is
> that while it was smart to reserve them, it's not smart to never use
> them. If now is not the time to use them, when will be? Is this an old
> idea, or not workable ?

   IANA released a couple more Class-A (or /8) blocks just a couple weeks
ago and a couple more this week.  One of them the 1.0.0.0/8 space which
will go to YouTube.  TONS of garbage in that space as every damn hotel
WiFi hotspot uses 1.2.3.4 to sign-on or off their networks.  It also has
tons of spam traffic and other garbage.  Merit is helping YouTube measure
and plan for how to filter the trash when they put this address space to
use.

   My point is, there are still a number of MUCH larger blocks than all
the tiny Class-E blocks still un-assigned.  IANA is delving them out on a
NEED basis -- the IANA policy has always been you need to PROVE you will
use the space efficiently before you can get any assigned.

   And just an FYI -- a /8 has a street value of about $500,000 per year
nowadays!

 
> So I say, whoever controls those addresses should say, OK, we'll give
> you one, or two, or ten, but, by law (pass the law if needed), you must
> use them to route back and forth between IPv4 and IPv6. Give financial
> incentives if necessary.

   Laws?  In what country?  No country 'owns' the address space.  
International organizations control the Internet, not the U.S.


 
> Only give them to the highest level providers. They then can turn around
> and charge a small premium (perhaps) for access to IPv6 in this fashion.
> People can still route directly from IPv6 to IPv6 on their own, but
> Bernstein has pointed out why this will never happen: there is no
> existing IPv6 infrastructure.
> 
> http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/ipv6mess.html 
> 
> Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to
> IPv4. My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not
> saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as makes
> sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all are there?

   Exactly, IPv6 is NOT an extension - was never meant to be.  V6 does a
lot more than just provide addresses.  IPv6 is not just about more
addresses, V6 has automatic neighbor discovery, some automatic
configuration facilities, and various security features all built into it.
     

   There are over 318,000 "networks" announced on the Internet (big I) as
of last weeks reports.  Each of these announces numerous blocks of IP
address space (see "the CIDR report").  In those reports you will note
that only 2/3rds of the IPv4 space is actually being USED.  The rest is
either ASSIGNED but UNANNOUNCED, or is not yet assigned to anyone.  If
companies/networks would clean up what they do use, a ton more addresses
*could* be recovered.  But it's agreed that the work would better be spent
to migrate to IPv6 instead, rather than re-number then a few years later
have to migrate to V6 anyway.  Might as well just do it once.

 
> However, I am not a networking professional. Just a curious bystander.
> But, if the U.S. Congress has stated that IPv4 exhaustion is a national
> security issue, and China *is* building an IPv6 infrastructure, maybe
> "natting forever" is not going to work.

   IPv6 crossed the 5% line just recently.  That is, about 5% of the
Internet now supports IPv6 interconnection.  HE.net (Hurricane Electric)  
and many others have been running IPv6 backbones for the past few years.  
ComCrap is now offering IPv6 to their customers (www.comcast6.net).  And
off the shelf consumer products as well as MicroSloth, Linux, BSD, Apple
have all had IPv6 compatability in them for some time.

   The slowness of deploying IPv6 has been a "need" issue.  People have to
have a need before they are willing to make a change.  Not just end users,
but the ISP's and NSP's as well have to feel the 'need'.  Predictions are
we will run out of IPv4 in about 2 years (at the current growth curve).  
When we hit that wall the 'need' will be high enough and the change will
wash over us like a tsunami!!!

   Two tidbits:

   1) China recently boofed the pooch and fat-fingered some BGP route
announcements and were sinking some 18,000 network routes into China that
didn't belong to them.  One of these was DELL.COM's address space.  That
outage took close to 3 days to clean up!  China did a similar blunder a
few months ago.  No... limited V4 is NOT a national security issue, but
not filtering one's BGP4 route announcements is!

   2) If every IPv6 address were an M&M, they would fill Lake Erie SEVEN
times over and still have a lot left over.  IPv4 barely half fills Lake
St.Clair.  IPv4 is only 32 bits long while IPv6 is 128 bits.  This is a
HUGE increase in size alone.


   As far as NAT goes, IPv6 was *NOT* designed to support NAT as there was
no need.  You either run a clean box or you don't in V6.  Hiding behind
NAT with some false sense of security has proven bad bad bad.  When ISP's
can hand me a /48 without blinking - I have far enough IP addresses to
assign to every single belonging in my house let alone every PC, printer,
phone, and toaster!!  No, there is NO need for that cluster-F known as NAT
to survive beyond IPv4, thank you very much :-/


      --- Jay Nugent

Train how you will Operate, and you will Operate how you were Trained.
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)649-0850/Cell       |
|   Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]                            |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.org] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  4:01pm  up 28 days, 13:32,  4 users,  load average: 0.09, 0.15, 0.26



From raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 18:38:51 2010
From: raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com (Raymond S McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:38:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] test
In-Reply-To: <20100420075925.301502be@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
	<20100420075925.301502be@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <4BCE2CFB.5030007@gmail.com>

Peter Bart wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:10:39 -0400
> Raymond S McLaughlin <raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> test
>>
>     Whew, I was worried I'd been excommunicated

Nope, it was just the old mail server needing a slap on the back. As far
as I can tell, it was due to ClamAV disabling all old installations.
<http://www.clamav.net/lang/en/>

This would be a good time to warn all of you using Windows systems for
your email. The MDLUG mail server has been configured to pass all
messages through ClamAV basically as a courtesy to the Windows using
members. Linux systems are largely immune to viruses. Since there is no
easy source for the new version of ClamAV for the server's OS (SUSE
LINUX 10.0) this is getting to be more trouble than it's worth. I
back-dated the install to db version 0.86, have taken steps to avoid
further updating/disabling.

One more reason to use a Linux mail client.

Raymond McLaughlin
serveradmin at mdlug.org


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Wed Apr 21 06:12:08 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:12:08 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <1271844728.16972.15.camel@linux-pqce.site>

On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 16:16 -0400, Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, I've just finished reading Dan Bernstein's comments on what he
> calls the IPv6 mess. I think his points are valid. 

No, he's wrong; speaking as an admin that has deployed IPv6.  There is
no mess.  It isn't as 'tidy' as a network that uses only one protocol -
but (a) the Internet has been multi-protocol before and (b) the solution
is to relegate IPv4 to second-class status.

> However, someone out there (IETF, IANA, ICANN, I don't know) obviously
> controls those Class E "reserved for future use" addresses. My idea is
> that while it was smart to reserve them, it's not smart to never use
> them. If now is not the time to use them, when will be? Is this an old
> idea, or not workable ? 

Personally, I just don't care, and don't understand why anyone would
care, about resuscitating IPv4.  It is a 20th century protocol in a 21st
century world;  IPv4 is at this point a mountain of hacks,  from
variable subnetting to bolted on multicast to NAT [ugh!].  And still no
real solution for mobile devices.  Let old horses die.

> So I say, whoever controls those addresses should say, OK, we'll give
> you one, or two, or ten, but, by law (pass the law if needed), you
> must use them to route back and forth between IPv4 and IPv6. Give
> financial incentives if necessary. 

No.  There are already at least two techniques for IPv4/IPv6
interoperability;  for tunneling IPv6 over IPv4 and vice versa.  Hey,
tunneling as a concept is built right into IPv6!

> Only give them to the highest level providers. They then can turn
> around and charge a small premium (perhaps) for access to IPv6 in this
> fashion. People can still route directly from IPv6 to IPv6 on their
> own, but Bernstein has pointed out why this will never happen: there
> is no existing IPv6 infrastructure. 

False, False. False.  Check out Hurricane electric.  Get yourself on
IPv6 so you can see - yep, the Internet is there.  An no large IPv6
networks?  Comcast, Verizon, the DoD, several of the large European
ISPs, and a sizable chunk of Asia.

> Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to
> IPv4.

And thank goodness.  IPv4 is a withered old crone,  once you start using
IPv6 any fondness you feel for IPv4 will quickly reveal itself as
nothing but nostalgia.

> My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not
> saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as
> makes sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all
> are there? 

There is no point.

> However, I am not a networking professional. Just a curious bystander.
> But, if the U.S. Congress has stated that IPv4 exhaustion is a
> national security issue, and China *is* building an IPv6
> infrastructure, maybe "natting forever" is not going to work. 

NAT is stupid.  All it does it cause interoperability problems and choke
performance.  Just use IPv6.   And the USA *is* building IPv6
infrastructure.  So no cause for alarm.



From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Wed Apr 21 06:28:41 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:28:41 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
Message-ID: <1271845721.16972.31.camel@linux-pqce.site>

On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 17:12 -0400, Jay Nugent wrote:
>  Exactly, IPv6 is NOT an extension - was never meant to be.  V6 does a
> lot more than just provide addresses.  IPv6 is not just about more
> addresses, V6 has automatic neighbor discovery, some automatic
> configuration facilities, and various security features all built into it.

Not to mention: better performance.  Simple headers, no fragmentation,
no per-hop checksum, much larger MTUs, and ***much*** smaller routing
tables provide an enormous load reduction for routers.  [The IPv4
routing table is horribly bloated by things like class E subnets].
Comparing the amount of work a router has do to process an IPv4 packet
vs. an IPv6 packet is rather astounding;  and given the power of modern
routers [thanks in part to IPv4's bad design] the thought of them
shoveling mostly IPv6 packets is rather exciting.

> But it's agreed that the work would better be spent
> to migrate to IPv6 instead, rather than re-number then a few years later
> have to migrate to V6 anyway.  Might as well just do it once.

+1
 
>   2) If every IPv6 address were an M&M, they would fill Lake Erie SEVEN
> times over and still have a lot left over.  IPv4 barely half fills Lake
> St.Clair.  IPv4 is only 32 bits long while IPv6 is 128 bits.  This is a
> HUGE increase in size alone.

Maximum address utilization is estimated at about 80% (called the HD
ratio).  So given IPv4 in a perfect world [hah!] that is about 50
million hosts;  for IPv6 using the same ratio gives you 5.07*10^30
hosts.  Or roughly 1,000 hosts for every gram of mass in planet Earth
[or 20,108,758,371,078 addresses per pound-of-planet].  That's a *big*
&@^*&$ network.   Or as it was explained to me: a network
79,228,162,514,264,337,593,543,950,336 *TIMES* the size of the current
Internet.   

So lets just do that - and forget about all this subnetting madness.
Let's just build an efficient, scalable, and *simpler* Internet.  Some
people/organizations won't move to IPv6 - that is what the ash bin is
for.

> As far as NAT goes, IPv6 was *NOT* designed to support NAT as there was
> no need.  

Thank goodness!

> You either run a clean box or you don't in V6.  Hiding behind
> NAT with some false sense of security has proven bad bad bad.  When ISP's
> can hand me a /48 without blinking - I have far enough IP addresses to
> assign to every single belonging in my house let alone every PC, printer,
> phone, and toaster!!  

Every mite living in your carpet can have its own address!



From tony at bemushosting.com  Wed Apr 21 10:48:11 2010
From: tony at bemushosting.com (tony at bemushosting.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:48:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
In-Reply-To: <BBEE43C2388245A79A757FC9546DD6A6@racathlon>
References: <20100418.112217.25705.0@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
	<BBEE43C2388245A79A757FC9546DD6A6@racathlon>
Message-ID: <1770432462.69634.1271861291920.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxusltgw05.schlund.de>

I think that would be a good time for me.
?
I will also volenteer to bring my Linux MCE machine for video playback.
?
Tony Bemus
?

On April 21, 2010 at 12:47 PM Robert Clyne <clyne at lodden.com> wrote:

> Could we have a planning meeting next Wednesday, April 28th, to try to
> finalize plans for the Penguicon hospitality room? That would leave 1 day
> for completion of any tasks before Penguicon.
>
> There are still a number of critical items on Gibson's list, see URL below,
> that are not covered e.g. crock pot, and several more not-quite-so-critical
> items to be either covered or dropped.
>
> Among other things, I think we have to make a decision about food, other
> than the chili, and soft drinks. As I recall, last year, a couple of guys
> went shopping for food and beverages, but I have heard of no similar plans
> for this year.
>
> Bob
>
> Robert Clyne
> clyne at mich.com
> 810-387-3101
> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
> http://www.semco.org
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:22 AM
> > To: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
> > richard55 at sbcglobal.net; clyne at mich.com; sanzicar at yahoo.com;
> > warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org
> > Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
> >
> >
> >
> > I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.
> >
> > http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
> > Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
> > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb2405258102e7684st03vuc
>

From danno at umich.edu  Thu Apr 22 13:45:32 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 13:45:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
Message-ID: <20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 05:12:20PM -0400, Jay Nugent wrote:
> > Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to
> > IPv4. My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not
> > saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as makes
> > sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all are there?
> 
>    Exactly, IPv6 is NOT an extension - was never meant to be.  V6 does a
> lot more than just provide addresses.  

> IPv6 is not just about more addresses, 

Nah, it's pretty much just about more addresses.  All the other stuff is
gravy.

> V6 has automatic neighbor discovery, some automatic
> configuration facilities, and various security features all built into it.

The neighbor discovery and autoconfiguration features are 95% solved
in ipv6, and about 95% solved in the standard ipv4 world (although
admittedly not as part of ipv4 per se).  Different 5% missing in
each - address autoconfiguration missing in ipv4, all the stuff beyond
address configuration that dhcp gives you missing in ipv6.  DHCPv6 is
fine but not all operating systems support it yet.

the security features that are "mandatory" in the specs (eg, IPSec) are often 
(usually?) unimplemented in practice.


So yes, v6 is an improvement, but hardly worth a complete upgrade on
these bases (basises?)

v6 has problems still, too:  Multihoming is still an unsolved problem
(at least, there is not a commonly agreed-upon solution).  

Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.

Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
(put in a good A record, too).

the browser will think the site is v6-connected, and will prefer that.

It'll time out on each and every http hit.  At least, it did with
safari 3 and firefox 3, on xp and macos 10.5.  I haven't tried with
safari 4 or firefox 3.5, or chrome.  I can't remember what IE did.  
I think but i'm not sure firefox on linux acted the same.

Camino worked "better" - no v6 support at all :)

>    As far as NAT goes, IPv6 was *NOT* designed to support NAT as there was
> no need.  You either run a clean box or you don't in V6.  

NAT != firewall; you can still have a little firewall box in front of your
system without it doing NAT.

I certainly agree that NAT needs to go away.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From danno at umich.edu  Thu Apr 22 14:00:06 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:00:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <1271845721.16972.31.camel@linux-pqce.site>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<1271845721.16972.31.camel@linux-pqce.site>
Message-ID: <20100422180006.GB86536@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 06:28:41AM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> Not to mention: better performance.  Simple headers, no fragmentation,
> no per-hop checksum, much larger MTUs, 
 
In practice, MTUs are a layer-2 issue, not a layer-3 issue.   

yes, ipv6 specifies a larger minimum MTU (1280 vs 500-something),

And yes, ipv4 is limited to 64k MTU while ipv6 doesn't really have
a limit (right?).

but in practice nearly everyone uses standard ethernet's 1500, or
1492 if they're stuck behind PPPOE.  In the data center, or in HPC
transfers over WANs, 9000 bytes is common.

Bigger MTUs are great, don't get me wrong, but ipv4 can handle an MTU
7x as big as the current standard "jumbo frame" of 9000 bytes.

> and ***much*** smaller routing
> tables provide an enormous load reduction for routers.  [The IPv4

those small routing tables are why multihoming is broken.  

Don't get me wrong, it's possible to design around the lack of
multihoming at higher layers, but it's not simple and that work has
not yet been done.   And there's something to be said to moving the
complexity out of the network and into the edge; it's more scalable
that way, for sure.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Thu Apr 22 15:28:35 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:28:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 13:45 -0400, Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 05:12:20PM -0400, Jay Nugent wrote:
> > > Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to
> > > IPv4. My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not
> > > saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as makes
> > > sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all are there?
> >    Exactly, IPv6 is NOT an extension - was never meant to be.  V6 does a
> > lot more than just provide addresses.  
> > IPv6 is not just about more addresses, 
> Nah, it's pretty much just about more addresses.  All the other stuff is
> gravy.

Nah, working multicast and mobile IP support are a big deal.

And I hardly call the radical reduction of CPU resources to perform
routing to be 'gravy' for backbone routers.  Think about it: IPv4
requires a CRC check at each hop,  do that on every packet in a ^&*^&*@
YouTube video stream for every &^&*# YouTube user at every hop and that
adds up to a lot of processing, ASIC or no ASIC.  Just dispensing with
that is a big deal.

> > V6 has automatic neighbor discovery, some automatic
> > configuration facilities, and various security features all built into it.
> The neighbor discovery and autoconfiguration features are 95% solved
> in ipv6, and about 95% solved in the standard ipv4 world (although
> admittedly not as part of ipv4 per se).  Different 5% missing in
> each - address autoconfiguration missing in ipv4, all the stuff beyond
> address configuration that dhcp gives you missing in ipv6.  DHCPv6 is
> fine but not all operating systems support it yet.

The issue of autoconfig of name resolution in IPv6 is a pretty stunning
oversight.

> the security features that are "mandatory" in the specs (eg, IPSec) are often 
> (usually?) unimplemented in practice.

True.  Don't get me started on IPSec. What a cluster *@&#*@.

> Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
> does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
> site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.
> Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
> server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
> (put in a good A record, too).

Eh.  Seriously, that is your complaint?  Fix your DNS.  I don't expect a
client application to compensate for incorrect information.

> the browser will think the site is v6-connected, and will prefer that.
> It'll time out on each and every http hit.  At least, it did with
> safari 3 and firefox 3, on xp and macos 10.5.  I haven't tried with
> safari 4 or firefox 3.5, or chrome.  I can't remember what IE did.  
> I think but i'm not sure firefox on linux acted the same.
> Camino worked "better" - no v6 support at all :)
> >    As far as NAT goes, IPv6 was *NOT* designed to support NAT as there was
> > no need.  You either run a clean box or you don't in V6.  
> NAT != firewall; you can still have a little firewall box in front of your
> system without it doing NAT.
> I certainly agree that NAT needs to go away.




From danno at umich.edu  Thu Apr 22 16:03:47 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:03:47 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
Message-ID: <20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 03:28:35PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> Nah, working multicast and mobile IP support are a big deal.

IPv4 SSM works more or less as well as IPv6 multicast does.

Mobile IP support, yeah, that's cool.

> And I hardly call the radical reduction of CPU resources to perform
> routing to be 'gravy' for backbone routers.  Think about it: IPv4
> requires a CRC check at each hop,  do that on every packet in a ^&*^&*@
> YouTube video stream for every &^&*# YouTube user at every hop and that
> adds up to a lot of processing, ASIC or no ASIC.  Just dispensing with
> that is a big deal.

somehow, all the packets get moved.  It's a lot less effort to do this in
the network than it is to change absolutely everything 


> > Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
> > does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
> > site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.
> > Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
> > server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
> > (put in a good A record, too).
> 
> Eh.  Seriously, that is your complaint?  Fix your DNS.  I don't expect a
> client application to compensate for incorrect information.

My complaint isn't what happens when DNS is broken.  My problem is 
what happens when:

  My system has a v6 and v4 address
  The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
  I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server

This happens pretty frequently in my experience.  

Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 16:26:47 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:47 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 03:28:35PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> Nah, working multicast and mobile IP support are a big deal.
> 
> IPv4 SSM works more or less as well as IPv6 multicast does.
> 
> Mobile IP support, yeah, that's cool.
> 
>> And I hardly call the radical reduction of CPU resources to perform
>> routing to be 'gravy' for backbone routers.  Think about it: IPv4
>> requires a CRC check at each hop,  do that on every packet in a ^&*^&*@
>> YouTube video stream for every &^&*# YouTube user at every hop and that
>> adds up to a lot of processing, ASIC or no ASIC.  Just dispensing with
>> that is a big deal.
> 
> somehow, all the packets get moved.  It's a lot less effort to do this in
> the network than it is to change absolutely everything 

Only for the first packet delivered by IPv6 via that node
(topologically) within your network.
After this one-time cost is paid, the benefits of lower costs
accrue both immediately, and forever.


> 
> 
>>> Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
>>> does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
>>> site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.
>>> Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
>>> server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
>>> (put in a good A record, too).
>> Eh.  Seriously, that is your complaint?  Fix your DNS.  I don't expect a
>> client application to compensate for incorrect information.
> 
> My complaint isn't what happens when DNS is broken.  My problem is 
> what happens when:
> 
>   My system has a v6 and v4 address
>   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
>   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
> 
> This happens pretty frequently in my experience.

Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?

> 
> Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.

More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
administration somewhere.

> 


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Thu Apr 22 16:55:34 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:55:34 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1271969734.3940.23.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 16:26 -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dan Pritts wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 03:28:35PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> >> Nah, working multicast and mobile IP support are a big deal.
> > IPv4 SSM works more or less as well as IPv6 multicast does.
> > Mobile IP support, yeah, that's cool.
> >> And I hardly call the radical reduction of CPU resources to perform
> >> routing to be 'gravy' for backbone routers.  Think about it: IPv4
> >> requires a CRC check at each hop,  do that on every packet in a ^&*^&*@
> >> YouTube video stream for every &^&*# YouTube user at every hop and that
> >> adds up to a lot of processing, ASIC or no ASIC.  Just dispensing with
> >> that is a big deal.
> > somehow, all the packets get moved. 

???  Slower than they could have otherwise.

>  It's a lot less effort to do this in
> > the network than it is to change absolutely everything 

So, just use IPv4 forever?  And there will be protocol overlap for at
least a decade.  Rebuilding all those apps to support filenames longer
than 8 characters was hard too.   And moving from green screens to GUIs.
And transitioning local networks from NetBIOS and IPX to IP.  Somehow we
managed.

> Only for the first packet delivered by IPv6 via that node
> (topologically) within your network.
> After this one-time cost is paid, the benefits of lower costs
> accrue both immediately, and forever.
> >>> Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
> >>> does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
> >>> site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.
> >>> Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
> >>> server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
> >>> (put in a good A record, too).
> >> Eh.  Seriously, that is your complaint?  Fix your DNS.  I don't expect a
> >> client application to compensate for incorrect information.
> > My complaint isn't what happens when DNS is broken.  My problem is 
> > what happens when:
> >   My system has a v6 and v4 address

If there was no IPv6 connectivity your client should not have acquired a
routeable IPv6 address. 



From gib at juno.com  Thu Apr 22 20:33:25 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:33:25 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100422.203325.22104.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>


Yes, I can meet on Wednesday April 28th.  Where?  Do we want to meet at the Panera Bread on Ford Road in Dearborn Heights again? Perhaps 6:00PM?

Panera Bread  
26580 Ford Rd, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127 
(313) 724-1861

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
To: <gib at juno.com>, <officers at mdlug.org>, <clyne at lodden.com>, <board at mug.org>, <sanzicar at yahoo.com>, <warnermach at gmail.com>, <mdlug at mdlug.org>, "Richard Jackson \(E-mail\)" <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>, "Mike Bader \(E-mail\)" <mdbader at wowway.com>, "Franz Breidenich \(E-mail\)" <franzb at ameritech.net>, "Ronald Green \(E-mail\)" <argie4444 at yahoo.com>, "John Lodden \(E-mail\)" <jrl at lodden.com>, "Mike Rudas \(E-mail\)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:47:49 -0400

Could we have a planning meeting next Wednesday, April 28th, to try to
finalize plans for the Penguicon hospitality room? That would leave 1 day
for completion of any tasks before Penguicon.

There are still a number of critical items on Gibson's list, see URL below,
that are not covered e.g. crock pot, and several more not-quite-so-critical
items to be either covered or dropped.

Among other things, I think we have to make a decision about food, other
than the chili, and soft drinks. As I recall, last year, a couple of guys
went shopping for food and beverages, but I have heard of no similar plans
for this year.

Bob

Robert Clyne
clyne at mich.com
810-387-3101
SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
http://www.semco.org



> -----Original Message-----
> From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:22 AM
> To: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
> richard55 at sbcglobal.net; clyne at mich.com; sanzicar at yahoo.com;
> warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org
> Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>
>
>
> I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.
>
> http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
> Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb2405258102e7684st03vuc




From danno at umich.edu  Fri Apr 23 17:07:06 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:07:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:26:47PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> >   My system has a v6 and v4 address
> >   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
> >   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
> > 
> > This happens pretty frequently in my experience.
> 
> Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?

My dns server does not have problems.  the ipv6 internet has problems.


> 
> > 
> > Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.
> 
> More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
> administration somewhere.

I'm curious how much experience you have using v6 on a daily basis.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From danno at umich.edu  Fri Apr 23 17:16:16 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:16:16 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <1271969734.3940.23.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<1271969734.3940.23.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
Message-ID: <20100423211616.GB67735@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:55:34PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> So, just use IPv4 forever?  And there will be protocol overlap for at

I said something along the lines of "it's all about the address
space.  All the rest is gravy."

So, no, don't use ipv4 forever.  but let's not get ourselves worked
up about how this is the greatest thing we'll ever do; it's a big pain
in the ass, but a necessary one.

I think it's gonna be ugly for a few years, though, when the address
space runs out.   

> If there was no IPv6 connectivity your client should not have acquired a
> routeable IPv6 address. 

should not != did not

this happened to some of my users somehow.  I think it was when
people moved from our wired net (has v6) to our wireless net
(braindead, v4 only).  Might have just been a problem with XP.

I've also read that certain apple airport base station/routers 
had a bug wherein they advertised v6 connectivity when there was none.

just a bug in a stupid router, yes.  Exacerbated by bad application
software behavior.


regardless of the above, it happens much more frequently that the
ipv6 internet is fragmented (even though ipv4 connectivity is still
available to the site in question).  Borked routing somewhere,
usually.

it's a vicious cycle; nobody uses v6, so the providers don't notice
when it's broken.  So, nobody uses it, because it's broken.


danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 17:57:04 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:57:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:26:47PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>>   My system has a v6 and v4 address
>>>   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
>>>   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
>>>
>>> This happens pretty frequently in my experience.
>> Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?
> 
> My dns server does not have problems.  the ipv6 internet has problems.
> 
> 
>>> Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.
>> More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
>> administration somewhere.
> 
> I'm curious how much experience you have using v6 on a daily basis.
> 

I didn't say that YOu are administrating your DNS box wrong,
I'm saying that somewhere in the DNS resolution chain,
someone is doing incompetent or improper administration.

And it really doesn't matter if it's "easy" or "difficult",
merely that it's correct or incorrect.


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 18:05:21 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:05:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100423211616.GB67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>	<1271969734.3940.23.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100423211616.GB67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD219A1.5090504@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:55:34PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> So, just use IPv4 forever?  And there will be protocol overlap for at
> 
> I said something along the lines of "it's all about the address
> space.  All the rest is gravy."
> 
> So, no, don't use ipv4 forever.  but let's not get ourselves worked
> up about how this is the greatest thing we'll ever do; it's a big pain
> in the ass, but a necessary one.
> 
> I think it's gonna be ugly for a few years, though, when the address
> space runs out.   
> 

The sooner the migration, the better.

I think the big stumbling block right now will be the massive
amount of software which will need to be, at the very least,
recompiled (assuming that the authors used symbolic names
for IP addresses defined in the .h files rather than declaring
addresses as "long int"

>> If there was no IPv6 connectivity your client should not have acquired a
>> routeable IPv6 address. 
> 
> should not != did not
> 
> this happened to some of my users somehow.  I think it was when
> people moved from our wired net (has v6) to our wireless net
> (braindead, v4 only).  Might have just been a problem with XP.
> 
> I've also read that certain apple airport base station/routers 
> had a bug wherein they advertised v6 connectivity when there was none.
> 
> just a bug in a stupid router, yes.  Exacerbated by bad application
> software behavior.
> 
> 
> regardless of the above, it happens much more frequently that the
> ipv6 internet is fragmented (even though ipv4 connectivity is still
> available to the site in question).  Borked routing somewhere,
> usually.
> 
> it's a vicious cycle; nobody uses v6, so the providers don't notice
> when it's broken.  So, nobody uses it, because it's broken.

When the ISPs run out of address space, they'll not only notice,
THEY will force the issue on their customers, whether the
customers want it or not.  And it will be hastily done, because
that's how American management tends to operate (do everything
as late as possible), because that's what they teach them in
the management schools (because, unlike business schools which
teach "bring in as much revenue as possible" which encourages
development of new services and capabilities, management schools
teach "keep overhead costs as low as possible" which discourages
pro-active development of future revenue expansion.)

:-/

To me, the big question will be -- which ISP will heavily
advertise that they offer IPv6 -- to the point that then
non-technical community becomes aware that there is even
an issue.


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 18:55:13 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:55:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Thank You for Standing Up for Net Neutrality]
Message-ID: <4BD22551.706@gmail.com>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Thank You for Standing Up for Net Neutrality
Date: 	Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: 	Timothy Karr <list at freepress.net>
Reply-To: 	Timothy Karr <list at freepress.net>
Organization: 	Free Press: media reform through education, organizing 
and advocacy
To: 	akulkis00 at gmail.com


> 
> 
> 
> free press: media is the issue <http://www.freepress.net/>
>  
> 
> Dear Aaron,
> 
> Thank you for taking action to protect the open Internet once and for 
> all. This is a critical time for Net Neutrality. Can you forward the 
> email below to share this action with your friends?
> 
>  
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The deadline is fast approaching to take action on Net Neutrality, the 
> principle that safeguards our freedom to do what we want and connect to 
> whomever we choose on the Internet.
> 
> Can you sign this letter to the FCC to protect the open Internet once 
> and for all? http://free.convio.net/site/Advocacy?pagename=homepage&id=437
> 
> Thanks!

Here is the text of what I sent:

The FCC must reclassify broadband as a "telecommunications service" so that it can keep the Internet open and free of corporate gatekeepers. 

Without vital Net Neutrality protections and the ability to enforce them, the Internet will cease to be a public platform for free speech, equal opportunity, economic growth and innovation. Instead, companies like AT&T, Verizon and Comcast, which have a commercial incentive to limit the free-flowing Web, will decide whose voices are heard.

We already have (for several decades now at the very least) the same sort of neutrality regarding telephone systems.  Telcos are neither allowed to give preferential call connection to some people you call, vs other people, based solely on whether the recipient of your call has paid ransom money to the telephone carrier.  Neither are telephone companies allowed to listen in on your calls, and determine if your conversation is "appropriate" or favorable to the telephone company's interests or not -- and then improve or degrade your call connection on that basis. 

They are legally limited to merely moving sound (currently digitized, and moved over the SAME connections and hardware as the internet), and providing whatever service level which the caller (not the recipient) pays for.

ISPs should either operate under the same common carrier rules which telephone companies operate under  -- which provide them immunity from prosecution for conversations over their voice networks which involve criminal acts or consiparacies to commit criminal acts, in exchange for not being responsible, or even allowed to monitor traffic on their networks unless ordered by a court to do so).  Likewise, if a criminal takes a taxi a bus to preparation for, or in the commission of a crime, or fleeing the police after the fact, such carriers are not held responsible for unknowingly transporting such an individual, because, by law, they must treat all customers according only to their willingness to pay the fares, and nothing more.


As long as ISPs continue to inspect the content of data network traffic (for the purpose of elevating or lowering connection priority solely on the basis of the content, or where the other end of the network connection ends -- such as google.com or whatever), then they should be held legally responsible for taking part in any illegal activity conducted over their networks. -- after all, they ARE willingly inspecting both the content of the traffic, and passing judgement based upon where the content comes from -- if they choose to lower the precedence of legal traffic, while also delivering traffic which is criminal in nature, then there is no logical alternative other than to have he officers of that ISP charged as accessories to such crimes.
 
You still have the power to protect the public interest. Please restore to the internet the same freedoms we have enjoyed with the telephone system.

A business which receives a large number of telephone calls (such as a carry-out restaurant, or a telephone/mail-order house) does not, and never has, been subjected to pricing structures that if they want their customer's telephone calls to be given the same priority as other calls, that they must pay the telephone company an extra sort of ransom on top of the money already being charged to the caller.  Businesses by as many telephone lines as they need, and purchase as much bulk data bandwidth as they want.  To degrade customers' data connections because the company has not paid an additional ransom ON TOP of the bandwidth purchased from the ISP is both prejudicial and wrong.  The ISP has already been paid for their bandwidth and the associated hardware and infrastructure to deliver it.

As a computer systems engineer for over 20 years, I see the recently stated desires of ISPs to discourage the use of "unfavored" sites -- by offering slow deliver, or limiting the number of data connections through their network  -- for example, if hulu.com or google.com does not pay the ISP a ransom -- in favor of their "partner" sites which would not be 
similarly limited, is both prejudicial, and wrong.

Similarly, the recent practice ISPs to interfere with internet traffic using data transport protocols such as bittorrent -- which is a very efficient way of delivering large files and helps lower aggregate network traffic for the same amount of data delivered as compared to protocols which are not disfavored (such as FTP)) is both prejudicial and wrong.

As a common carrier, a telephone company is prohibited from operating a content business -- precisely to prevent this sort of conflict of interest.  The same rules should be made to apply to ISP's, with the threat of charges to being accessories to crime for ANY criminal acts committed by transmitting data through their network (child porn downloads, "phishing" scams, virus propagation via emails and web-sites, etc.)  After all, if the ISP is inspecting and making judgements about traffic based upon such inspections, then they should likewise be held responsible in the criminal courts for delivering ANY such traffic which aids in the commission of a crime, or which is criminal in and of itself.  Anything less would be wrong.

With such a persuasive stick of both corporate and personal criminal charges for the legal liability for delivering criminal traffice which naturally stems from inspecting data content, and prioritizing on that basis, I am quite sure that ISPs will EAGERLY accept the proposal that they adopt the same content-neutral and source-neutral rules which already govern our telephone systems.




From gib at juno.com  Sat Apr 24 21:12:56 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 01:12:56 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100424.211256.17865.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com>


Super.  Thank you.

Please note: message attached

From: c sanzi <sanzicar at yahoo.com>
To: officers at mdlug.org, clyne at lodden.com, board at mug.org,  richard55 at sbcglobal.net, clyne at mich.com, warnermach at gmail.com,  mdlug at mdlug.org, "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
Subject: Re: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:31:37 -0700 (PDT)


____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bd3975fd19b41b989ast02vuc
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An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: c sanzi <sanzicar at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:31:37 -0700 (PDT)
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URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20100425/4929e244/attachment.mht>

From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 21:27:40 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:27:40 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Tired of indistinguishable Konsoles in KDE task bar?
Message-ID: <4BD4EC0C.40200@gmail.com>


Put the following code snippet in your ~/.bashrc file.

Each window will include the tty device name
(/dev/pts/nn) munged to pts/nn.

Note, this has NOT been tested with gnome or other anything
other than Konsole

   ---------- code begins below ----------

# Begin KDE Konsole Window title code
TTY=`/usr/bin/tty`

		# /dev/pts is a windowed pseudo-terminal
		# /dev/ttynn is a virtual console
		# /dev/ttySnn is a serial line
case $TTY in
   /dev/pts/* )
		# magic kde konsole window title bar escape codes
	export PS1="\u@\h:\w> \[\e]30;\H:`tty|sed -e 's:/dev/::'`\a\] "
	;;

   default )
	export PS1="\u@\h:\w> "
esac

# End KDE Konsole Window title code


From petertheplumber at att.net  Mon Apr 26 10:07:32 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:07:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
Message-ID: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>

Good Morning,
    I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid? I'm thinking of
getting some adapters from Radio Shack; with the fuses in them; and
putting them on my car chargers. Fuses appropriate for the load of
course. The specific charger I'm talking about is the Asus brand car
charger <http://estore.asus.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=4446&catid=734>.
It has a transformer brick to step up voltage to 13 volts and lots of
references to supposed internal overcurrent/voltage protection. But
nothing official. What do the great minds at MDLUG think? I should
mention that almost every electric appliance in my house is plugged
into some sort of APC surge arrester/battery backup/voltage regulator.
My notebook power supplies have the small inline ones strapped right to
the brick. Any thoughts?

-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber
Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 11:25:06 2010
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:25:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
In-Reply-To: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <v2nb02c40e91004260825p714ef36dm6c5a8d988a36cc58@mail.gmail.com>

I can almost guarantee the Asus adapter has overcurrent protection.
It's almost impossible to find voltage regulator semiconductor devices
that don't have overcurrent/thermal protection.

The cigarette lighter/accessory socket circuit in any vehicle always has a fuse.

A fuse is only intended to protect the wiring from overload, not the device.

On 4/26/10, Peter Bart <petertheplumber at att.net> wrote:
> Good Morning,
>     I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
> point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
> lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
> dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
> fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid? I'm thinking of
> getting some adapters from Radio Shack; with the fuses in them; and
> putting them on my car chargers. Fuses appropriate for the load of
> course. The specific charger I'm talking about is the Asus brand car
> charger <http://estore.asus.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=4446&catid=734>.
> It has a transformer brick to step up voltage to 13 volts and lots of
> references to supposed internal overcurrent/voltage protection. But
> nothing official. What do the great minds at MDLUG think? I should
> mention that almost every electric appliance in my house is plugged
> into some sort of APC surge arrester/battery backup/voltage regulator.
> My notebook power supplies have the small inline ones strapped right to
> the brick. Any thoughts?
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Peter The Plumber
> Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 11:43:21 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:43:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
In-Reply-To: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <4BD5B499.4090007@gmail.com>

Peter Bart wrote:
> Good Morning,
>     I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
> point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
> lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
> dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
> fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid? I'm thinking of
> getting some adapters from Radio Shack; with the fuses in them; and
> putting them on my car chargers. Fuses appropriate for the load of
> course. The specific charger I'm talking about is the Asus brand car
> charger <http://estore.asus.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=4446&catid=734>.
> It has a transformer brick to step up voltage to 13 volts and lots of
> references to supposed internal overcurrent/voltage protection. But
> nothing official. What do the great minds at MDLUG think? I should
> mention that almost every electric appliance in my house is plugged
> into some sort of APC surge arrester/battery backup/voltage regulator.
> My notebook power supplies have the small inline ones strapped right to
> the brick. Any thoughts?
> 

The cigarette lighter in your car most likely already
has a fuse, either 10 Amp or 15 Amp.


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Mon Apr 26 11:43:07 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:43:07 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
In-Reply-To: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <1272296587.9749.24.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 10:07 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> Good Morning,
>     I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
> point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
> lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
> dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
> fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid?

Yes.  Modern automobiles are loaded with solid-state electronics and
have solid-state voltage regulators to provide [regulate] that current.
Your automobiles voltage isn't nearly as dirty or variable as it used to
be.

I wouldn't worry about it (and I don't, in practice).  [I remember the
days of installing line noise filters and such things, but those days
are long gone].



From danno at umich.edu  Mon Apr 26 16:30:21 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:30:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>

the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.

Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 05:57:04PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dan Pritts wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:26:47PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> >>>   My system has a v6 and v4 address
> >>>   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
> >>>   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
> >>>
> >>> This happens pretty frequently in my experience.
> >> Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?
> > 
> > My dns server does not have problems.  the ipv6 internet has problems.
> > 
> > 
> >>> Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.
> >> More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
> >> administration somewhere.
> > 
> > I'm curious how much experience you have using v6 on a daily basis.
> > 
> 
> I didn't say that YOu are administrating your DNS box wrong,
> I'm saying that somewhere in the DNS resolution chain,
> someone is doing incompetent or improper administration.
> 
> And it really doesn't matter if it's "easy" or "difficult",
> merely that it's correct or incorrect.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 19:07:36 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:07:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
	<20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
> site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
> i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
> in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
> exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.
> 

And if IPv4 was screwed up in the middle, the same problems
would occur.  Otherwise, we could all just put random numbers
in, and networking would still work.

> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 05:57:04PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Dan Pritts wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:26:47PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>>>>   My system has a v6 and v4 address
>>>>>   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
>>>>>   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
>>>>>
>>>>> This happens pretty frequently in my experience.
>>>> Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?
>>> My dns server does not have problems.  the ipv6 internet has problems.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.
>>>> More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
>>>> administration somewhere.
>>> I'm curious how much experience you have using v6 on a daily basis.
>>>
>> I didn't say that YOu are administrating your DNS box wrong,
>> I'm saying that somewhere in the DNS resolution chain,
>> someone is doing incompetent or improper administration.
>>
>> And it really doesn't matter if it's "easy" or "difficult",
>> merely that it's correct or incorrect.______
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From petertheplumber at att.net  Mon Apr 26 21:42:29 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:42:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
In-Reply-To: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <1272332549.5111.770.camel@plumber-notebook.site>

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 10:07 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> Good Morning,
>     I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
> point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
> lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
> dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
> fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid? I'm thinking of
> getting some adapters from Radio Shack; with the fuses in them; and
> putting them on my car chargers. Fuses appropriate for the load of
> course. The specific charger I'm talking about is the Asus brand car
> charger <http://estore.asus.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=4446&catid=734>.
> It has a transformer brick to step up voltage to 13 volts and lots of
> references to supposed internal overcurrent/voltage protection. But
> nothing official. What do the great minds at MDLUG think? I should
> mention that almost every electric appliance in my house is plugged
> into some sort of APC surge arrester/battery backup/voltage regulator.
> My notebook power supplies have the small inline ones strapped right to
> the brick. Any thoughts?
> 

	Thanks to all for the input, I'll leave well enough alone!
-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber



From danno at umich.edu  Tue Apr 27 13:29:36 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:29:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
	<20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100427172936.GA44628@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 07:07:36PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dan Pritts wrote:
> > the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
> > site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.
> > 
> > Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
> > i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
> > in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
> > exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.
> > 
> 
> And if IPv4 was screwed up in the middle, the same problems
> would occur.  Otherwise, we could all just put random numbers
> in, and networking would still work.

"this is to be expected in this transitional phase." 

back in 1989, IPv4 got screwed up in the middle a lot more than it
does now.  We didn't have anything else then, but today, deploying
ipv6, we have a pretty reliable ipv4 internet.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 14:38:13 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:38:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100427172936.GA44628@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>	<20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>
	<20100427172936.GA44628@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD72F15.3020108@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 07:07:36PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Dan Pritts wrote:
>>> the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
>>> site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.
>>>
>>> Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
>>> i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
>>> in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
>>> exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.
>>>
>> And if IPv4 was screwed up in the middle, the same problems
>> would occur.  Otherwise, we could all just put random numbers
>> in, and networking would still work.
> 
> "this is to be expected in this transitional phase." 
> 
> back in 1989, IPv4 got screwed up in the middle a lot more than it
> does now.  We didn't have anything else then, but today, deploying
> ipv6, we have a pretty reliable ipv4 internet.

So we should just stick with IPv4 for another 3 years
until we have a crisis situation?

The solution is not to say "oh, the IPv6 doesn't work, lets
just be content with IPv4"... the solution is to tell the
ISP to get their IPv6 situation straightened out, or you will
not only change vendors, but you will also see them in
court for breech of contract, and you'll also be forming
a legal class for a class action suit (which distributes
your legal costs among all participants -- and many trial
lawyers will take on such a case for free if the class
turns out to be big enough).

Once it's cheaper to fix their IPv6 configuration than
to pay for lawyers, they'll fix their IPv6.


From danno at umich.edu  Wed Apr 28 11:14:23 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:14:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD72F15.3020108@gmail.com>
References: <20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
	<20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>
	<20100427172936.GA44628@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD72F15.3020108@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100428151423.GA88436@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 02:38:13PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dan Pritts wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 07:07:36PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> >> Dan Pritts wrote:
> >>> the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
> >>> site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
> >>> i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
> >>> in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
> >>> exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.
> >>>
> >> And if IPv4 was screwed up in the middle, the same problems
> >> would occur.  Otherwise, we could all just put random numbers
> >> in, and networking would still work.
> > 
> > "this is to be expected in this transitional phase." 
> > 
> > back in 1989, IPv4 got screwed up in the middle a lot more than it
> > does now.  We didn't have anything else then, but today, deploying
> > ipv6, we have a pretty reliable ipv4 internet.
> 
> So we should just stick with IPv4 for another 3 years
> until we have a crisis situation?


"having application software that exacerbates the problem just makes
users want to turn off v6"


danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 10:03:15 2010
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:03:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
Message-ID: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>

And so it begins...
"Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents, licenses HTC
(update: talking to other Android manufacturers as well)"
<http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/28/microsoft-says-android-infringes-on-its-patents-licenses-htc>

I'm kinda surprised it didn't happen earlier.  Software patents suck!

~~ Michael Rudas
  My home page: http://MRudas.2Ya.com
  http://www.Facebook.com/ScienceMikey


From rmdion at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 10:50:44 2010
From: rmdion at gmail.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:50:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>

 >>Microsoft has a decades-long record of investment in software 
platforms. As a result, we have built a significant patent portfolio in 
this field, and we have a responsibility to our customers, partners, and 
shareholders to ensure that competitors do not free ride on our 
innovations. <<

"Investment" You mean stealing.

On 04/29/2010 09:03 AM, Michael Rudas wrote:
> And so it begins...
> "Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents, licenses HTC
> (update: talking to other Android manufacturers as well)"
> <http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/28/microsoft-says-android-infringes-on-its-patents-licenses-htc>
>
> I'm kinda surprised it didn't happen earlier.  Software patents suck!
>


From jaketodd422 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 13:32:45 2010
From: jaketodd422 at gmail.com (Jacob Todd)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:32:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 09:50:44AM -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> "Investment"[?] You mean stealing.

What have MS stolen? Patents are theft, they're monopolies.
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From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Thu Apr 29 13:46:24 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:46:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:32 -0400, Jacob Todd wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 09:50:44AM -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> > "Investment"[?] You mean stealing.
> What have MS stolen? 

Nothing; if they hold the patent then they own it.  You can't steal from
yourself.

I don't understand why people in FOSS land get so worked up about these
[apparently randomly choosing one to have a fit about].  Especially the
Novell / Microsoft patent deal - what a @*&^*$ to-do about nothing.
Tech companies sign these kind of agreements every day;  it is how
business is done until the legislature changes it. 

Does Android violate any M$ patents?  Without a doubt, one doesn't even
have to look.  It certainly violates patents from dozens of other
organizations as well.  So these organizations all sign agreements with
each other to cover their hindquarters from the potential costs.  And M$
signs such agreements with IBM as undoubtedly M$ tech violates lots of
IBM patents [who holds more patents than anybody]

I personally wonder what is more annoying:  software patents or software
patent FUD as perpetrated by
call-themselves-FOSS-advocates-but-are-really-just-malcontents.

<quote
source="http://www.jprl.com/Blog/archive/development/mono/2009/Jan-19.html">
What I find even "funnier" is that Microsoft supposedly holds a number
of patents in a number of areas frequently used by open-source projects,
such as HTML, CSS, C++, XML, and others. So why don't we ever see any
suggestions to avoid these technologies because the Big Bad Microsoft
might sue?</quote>

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam at whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA
<http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com>
OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba



From tesral at wowway.com  Thu Apr 29 14:13:29 2010
From: tesral at wowway.com (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:13:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4BD9CC49.5010508@wowway.com>

Jacob Todd wrote:
> What have MS stolen? Patents are theft, they're monopolies.
>   

QDOS for starters.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it -- and stop there -- lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again, and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one any more. -Mark Twain
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From rmdion at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 14:26:08 2010
From: rmdion at gmail.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:26:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
	<1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
Message-ID: <4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>

MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it or invented it. Which 
leaves everyone else to either pay up or spend millions to prove the 
patent invalid.

One only has to look as far back and the i4i suit to know MS has no 
respect for IP of others.

On 04/29/2010 12:46 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:32 -0400, Jacob Todd wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 09:50:44AM -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
>>> "Investment"[?] You mean stealing.
>> What have MS stolen?
>
> Nothing; if they hold the patent then they own it.  You can't steal from
> yourself.
>
> I don't understand why people in FOSS land get so worked up about these
> [apparently randomly choosing one to have a fit about].  Especially the
> Novell / Microsoft patent deal - what a @*&^*$ to-do about nothing.
> Tech companies sign these kind of agreements every day;  it is how
> business is done until the legislature changes it.
>
> Does Android violate any M$ patents?  Without a doubt, one doesn't even
> have to look.  It certainly violates patents from dozens of other
> organizations as well.  So these organizations all sign agreements with
> each other to cover their hindquarters from the potential costs.  And M$
> signs such agreements with IBM as undoubtedly M$ tech violates lots of
> IBM patents [who holds more patents than anybody]
>
> I personally wonder what is more annoying:  software patents or software
> patent FUD as perpetrated by
> call-themselves-FOSS-advocates-but-are-really-just-malcontents.
>
> <quote
> source="http://www.jprl.com/Blog/archive/development/mono/2009/Jan-19.html">
> What I find even "funnier" is that Microsoft supposedly holds a number
> of patents in a number of areas frequently used by open-source projects,
> such as HTML, CSS, C++, XML, and others. So why don't we ever see any
> suggestions to avoid these technologies because the Big Bad Microsoft
> might sue?</quote>
>


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Thu Apr 29 14:57:21 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:57:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
	<1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site> <4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1272567441.7661.29.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:26 -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it 

That is exactly what a patent means.  They own it.




From painbank at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 14:55:11 2010
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:55:11 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
	<1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2pcafacd831004291155o7ce97f5buf46c148a052db4bf@mail.gmail.com>

Flame war!

On 4/29/10, Bob Dion <rmdion at gmail.com> wrote:
> MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it or invented it. Which
> leaves everyone else to either pay up or spend millions to prove the
> patent invalid.
>
> One only has to look as far back and the i4i suit to know MS has no
> respect for IP of others.
>
> On 04/29/2010 12:46 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:32 -0400, Jacob Todd wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 09:50:44AM -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
>>>> "Investment"[?] You mean stealing.
>>> What have MS stolen?
>>
>> Nothing; if they hold the patent then they own it.  You can't steal from
>> yourself.
>>
>> I don't understand why people in FOSS land get so worked up about these
>> [apparently randomly choosing one to have a fit about].  Especially the
>> Novell / Microsoft patent deal - what a @*&^*$ to-do about nothing.
>> Tech companies sign these kind of agreements every day;  it is how
>> business is done until the legislature changes it.
>>
>> Does Android violate any M$ patents?  Without a doubt, one doesn't even
>> have to look.  It certainly violates patents from dozens of other
>> organizations as well.  So these organizations all sign agreements with
>> each other to cover their hindquarters from the potential costs.  And M$
>> signs such agreements with IBM as undoubtedly M$ tech violates lots of
>> IBM patents [who holds more patents than anybody]
>>
>> I personally wonder what is more annoying:  software patents or software
>> patent FUD as perpetrated by
>> call-themselves-FOSS-advocates-but-are-really-just-malcontents.
>>
>> <quote
>> source="http://www.jprl.com/Blog/archive/development/mono/2009/Jan-19.html">
>> What I find even "funnier" is that Microsoft supposedly holds a number
>> of patents in a number of areas frequently used by open-source projects,
>> such as HTML, CSS, C++, XML, and others. So why don't we ever see any
>> suggestions to avoid these technologies because the Big Bad Microsoft
>> might sue?</quote>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Rich Elswick


From mat.enders at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 15:03:30 2010
From: mat.enders at gmail.com (mat.enders at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:03:30 +0000
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
Message-ID: <1329644716-1272567810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147800514-@bda326.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Not when they were granted the patent in error, which is I believe what Bob was saying.
------Original Message------
From: Adam Tauno Williams
Sender: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
ReplyTo: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
Sent: Apr 29, 2010 14:57

On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:26 -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it 

That is exactly what a patent means.  They own it.


_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


Sent on the Sprint? Now Network from my BlackBerry?

From jjn at nuge.com  Thu Apr 29 15:17:15 2010
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:17:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <1329644716-1272567810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147800514-@bda326.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004291516410.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>

Greetings,

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 mat.enders at gmail.com wrote:

> Not when they were granted the patent in error, which is I believe what Bob was saying.

   Or if the alleged patent is "Patent Pending".



> ------Original Message------
> From: Adam Tauno Williams
> Sender: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org
> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
> ReplyTo: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
> Sent: Apr 29, 2010 14:57
> 
> On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:26 -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> > MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it 
> 
> That is exactly what a patent means.  They own it.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> Sent on the Sprint? Now Network from my BlackBerry?
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 

             
Train how you will Operate, and you will Operate how you were Trained.
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)649-0850/Cell       |
|   Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]                            |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.org] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  3:01pm  up 37 days, 12:38,  5 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.01



From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 19:45:49 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:45:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] for those looking to copy backup/convert video material
Message-ID: <4BDA1A2D.5080304@gmail.com>


<http://www.xdimax.com/common/default.html>


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 30 03:38:57 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 03:38:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <1272567441.7661.29.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>	<1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
	<1272567441.7661.29.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
Message-ID: <4BDA8911.1000200@gmail.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:26 -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
>> MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it 
> 
> That is exactly what a patent means.  They own it.
> 

And they've FREQUENTLY been caught filing patent on
the work of others.. in fact, even when the prior art
was well known within the industry.

The only thing that allows them to keep up this racket
is the fact that the patent examiners seem to be utterly
clueless about software in general (as in, what were
already established practices even DECADES ago), let
alone the state of the art.

But, it really won't mean anything in a couple of years.
there's a good 5-2 majority in the Supreme Court to
get rid of these odious things -- business methods have
already been struck down solidly, and the questioning
from the justices on that case indicates that they
fairly agree that business methods and computer
algorithms are indistinguishable.

The problem isn't so much Microsoft's wanting to patent
things .. it's that Gates, and the other upper management
are all paranoid, and behave as the business equivalent
of psychotic megalomaniacs (even arguing that what is
illegal for other companies should be OK for them, because
they're Microsoft, and the other companies are not).


From gib at juno.com  Thu Apr 29 08:16:52 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:16:52 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100429.081652.21775.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com>

Thank you.  It was good to see all of you.  
We were able to settle all of the outstanding issues (except room key assignments).
Every object that we need per our list now has someone signed up to bring it.  
We can still use more volunteers to watch the room.
Any additional money that anyone wants to contribute would be welcome. I'm currently $20 in the red for known expenses. I can cover this or some of you can donate for additional goods. 
Please provide a receipt if you want money. 
You can make this easy if you wish to just bring something instead of donating money.  But be aware that we have people signed up for specific items and you may duplicate.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Warner Mach <warnermach at gmail.com>
To: Richard Jackson <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: clyne at lodden.com, gib at juno.com, officers at mdlug.org, board at mug.org,  sanzicar at yahoo.com, mdlug at mdlug.org, mdbader at wowway.com, franzb at ameritech.net,  argie4444 at yahoo.com, jrl at lodden.com, open.computing at yahoo.com,  "Ed Zaremba (E-mail)" <edz at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 04:55:15 -0400

I will try to be there ... Warner

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Richard Jackson
<richardj55 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I will be there.
>
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
> To: <gib at juno.com>
> Cc: <officers at mdlug.org>; <board at mug.org>; <sanzicar at yahoo.com>;
> <warnermach at gmail.com>; <mdlug at mdlug.org>; <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>;
> <mdbader at wowway.com>; <franzb at ameritech.net>; <argie4444 at yahoo.com>;
> <jrl at lodden.com>; <open.computing at yahoo.com>; "Ed Zaremba (E-mail)"
> <edz at comcast.net>; "Mike Rudas (E-mail)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:13 PM
> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>
>
>> OK Let's meet on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 at 6:00PM at the Panera Bread
>> on
>> Ford Road in Dearborn Heights (same place as last time).
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> Robert Clyne
>> clyne at mich.com
>> 810-387-3101
>> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
>> http://www.semco.org
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 8:33 PM
>>> To: clyne at lodden.com
>>> Cc: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
>>> sanzicar at yahoo.com; warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org;
>>> richardj55 at sbcglobal.net; mdbader at wowway.com; franzb at ameritech.net;
>>> argie4444 at yahoo.com; jrl at lodden.com; open.computing at yahoo.com
>>> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I can meet on Wednesday April 28th.  Where?  Do we want
>>> to meet at the Panera Bread on Ford Road in Dearborn Heights
>>> again? Perhaps 6:00PM?
>>>
>>> Panera Bread
>>> 26580 Ford Rd, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127
>>> (313) 724-1861
>>>
>>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>>> From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
>>> To: <gib at juno.com>, <officers at mdlug.org>, <clyne at lodden.com>,
>>> <board at mug.org>, <sanzicar at yahoo.com>,
>>> <warnermach at gmail.com>, <mdlug at mdlug.org>, "Richard Jackson
>>> \(E-mail\)" <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>, "Mike Bader
>>> \(E-mail\)" <mdbader at wowway.com>, "Franz Breidenich
>>> \(E-mail\)" <franzb at ameritech.net>, "Ronald Green \(E-mail\)"
>>> <argie4444 at yahoo.com>, "John Lodden \(E-mail\)"
>>> <jrl at lodden.com>, "Mike Rudas \(E-mail\)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:47:49 -0400
>>>
>>> Could we have a planning meeting next Wednesday, April 28th, to try to
>>> finalize plans for the Penguicon hospitality room? That would
>>> leave 1 day
>>> for completion of any tasks before Penguicon.
>>>
>>> There are still a number of critical items on Gibson's list,
>>> see URL below,
>>> that are not covered e.g. crock pot, and several more
>>> not-quite-so-critical
>>> items to be either covered or dropped.
>>>
>>> Among other things, I think we have to make a decision about
>>> food, other
>>> than the chili, and soft drinks. As I recall, last year, a
>>> couple of guys
>>> went shopping for food and beverages, but I have heard of no
>>> similar plans
>>> for this year.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> Robert Clyne
>>> clyne at mich.com
>>> 810-387-3101
>>> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
>>> http://www.semco.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
>>> > Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:22 AM
>>> > To: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
>>> > richard55 at sbcglobal.net; clyne at mich.com; sanzicar at yahoo.com;
>>> > warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org
>>> > Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.
>>> >
>>> > http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>> > Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
>>> > Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
>>> > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb2405258102e7684st03vuc
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr 30 15:56:22 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:56:22 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Room Number is 211 - - -Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and
	SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100430.155622.12145.0@webmail09.vgs.untd.com>

Per the Penguicon room part list our room number is 211.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
To: warnermach at gmail.com
Cc: richardj55 at sbcglobal.net,  clyne at lodden.com,  officers at mdlug.org,  board at mug.org,  sanzicar at yahoo.com,  mdlug at mdlug.org,  mdbader at wowway.com,  franzb at ameritech.net,  argie4444 at yahoo.com,  jrl at lodden.com,  open.computing at yahoo.com,  edz at comcast.net
Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:16:52 GMT

Thank you.  It was good to see all of you.  
We were able to settle all of the outstanding issues (except room key assignments).
Every object that we need per our list now has someone signed up to bring it.  
We can still use more volunteers to watch the room.
Any additional money that anyone wants to contribute would be welcome. I'm currently $20 in the red for known expenses. I can cover this or some of you can donate for additional goods. 
Please provide a receipt if you want money. 
You can make this easy if you wish to just bring something instead of donating money.  But be aware that we have people signed up for specific items and you may duplicate.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Warner Mach <warnermach at gmail.com>
To: Richard Jackson <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: clyne at lodden.com, gib at juno.com, officers at mdlug.org, board at mug.org,  sanzicar at yahoo.com, mdlug at mdlug.org, mdbader at wowway.com, franzb at ameritech.net,  argie4444 at yahoo.com, jrl at lodden.com, open.computing at yahoo.com,  "Ed Zaremba (E-mail)" <edz at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 04:55:15 -0400

I will try to be there ... Warner

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Richard Jackson
<richardj55 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I will be there.
>
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
> To: <gib at juno.com>
> Cc: <officers at mdlug.org>; <board at mug.org>; <sanzicar at yahoo.com>;
> <warnermach at gmail.com>; <mdlug at mdlug.org>; <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>;
> <mdbader at wowway.com>; <franzb at ameritech.net>; <argie4444 at yahoo.com>;
> <jrl at lodden.com>; <open.computing at yahoo.com>; "Ed Zaremba (E-mail)"
> <edz at comcast.net>; "Mike Rudas (E-mail)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:13 PM
> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>
>
>> OK Let's meet on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 at 6:00PM at the Panera Bread
>> on
>> Ford Road in Dearborn Heights (same place as last time).
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> Robert Clyne
>> clyne at mich.com
>> 810-387-3101
>> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
>> http://www.semco.org
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 8:33 PM
>>> To: clyne at lodden.com
>>> Cc: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
>>> sanzicar at yahoo.com; warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org;
>>> richardj55 at sbcglobal.net; mdbader at wowway.com; franzb at ameritech.net;
>>> argie4444 at yahoo.com; jrl at lodden.com; open.computing at yahoo.com
>>> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I can meet on Wednesday April 28th.  Where?  Do we want
>>> to meet at the Panera Bread on Ford Road in Dearborn Heights
>>> again? Perhaps 6:00PM?
>>>
>>> Panera Bread
>>> 26580 Ford Rd, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127
>>> (313) 724-1861
>>>
>>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>>> From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
>>> To: <gib at juno.com>, <officers at mdlug.org>, <clyne at lodden.com>,
>>> <board at mug.org>, <sanzicar at yahoo.com>,
>>> <warnermach at gmail.com>, <mdlug at mdlug.org>, "Richard Jackson
>>> \(E-mail\)" <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>, "Mike Bader
>>> \(E-mail\)" <mdbader at wowway.com>, "Franz Breidenich
>>> \(E-mail\)" <franzb at ameritech.net>, "Ronald Green \(E-mail\)"
>>> <argie4444 at yahoo.com>, "John Lodden \(E-mail\)"
>>> <jrl at lodden.com>, "Mike Rudas \(E-mail\)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:47:49 -0400
>>>
>>> Could we have a planning meeting next Wednesday, April 28th, to try to
>>> finalize plans for the Penguicon hospitality room? That would
>>> leave 1 day
>>> for completion of any tasks before Penguicon.
>>>
>>> There are still a number of critical items on Gibson's list,
>>> see URL below,
>>> that are not covered e.g. crock pot, and several more
>>> not-quite-so-critical
>>> items to be either covered or dropped.
>>>
>>> Among other things, I think we have to make a decision about
>>> food, other
>>> than the chili, and soft drinks. As I recall, last year, a
>>> couple of guys
>>> went shopping for food and beverages, but I have heard of no
>>> similar plans
>>> for this year.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> Robert Clyne
>>> clyne at mich.com
>>> 810-387-3101
>>> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
>>> http://www.semco.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
>>> > Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:22 AM
>>> > To: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
>>> > richard55 at sbcglobal.net; clyne at mich.com; sanzicar at yahoo.com;
>>> > warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org
>>> > Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.
>>> >
>>> > http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>> > Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
>>> > Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
>>> > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb2405258102e7684st03vuc
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr 30 18:05:05 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 22:05:05 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Room Number is 1211 - - -Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and
	SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100430.180505.23979.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com>


Correction room number is 1211.

Please note: message attached

From: "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
To: gib at juno.com
Cc: warnermach at gmail.com,  richardj55 at sbcglobal.net,  clyne at lodden.com,  officers at mdlug.org,  board at mug.org,  sanzicar at yahoo.com,  mdlug at mdlug.org,  mdbader at wowway.com,  franzb at ameritech.net,  argie4444 at yahoo.com,  jrl at lodden.com,  open.computing at yahoo.com,  edz at comcast.net
Subject: Room Number is 211  - - -Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:56:22 GMT


____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bdb54658a5ac251068st05vuc
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
Subject: Room Number is 211  - - -Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:56:22 GMT
Size: 14913
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20100430/075feb91/attachment.mht>

From nick.wilkens at mnxsolutions.com  Thu Apr  1 12:11:48 2010
From: nick.wilkens at mnxsolutions.com (nick wilkens)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:11:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] JOB: Linux Administrator, Monroe MI
Message-ID: <r2mfd015c281004010911obf572f54s7538dfdd990e3a46@mail.gmail.com>

MNX Solutions is a Linux consulting company based in Monroe MI, we are
seeking an experienced Linux administrator to join our growing team.

Visit, http://www.mnxsolutions.com/jobs for further details.

Thanks,
Nick Wilkens
(734) 344-4942
nick.wilkens at mnxsolutions.com
http://www.mnxsolutions.com - Open Source Enterprise Services


From box at blogdetroit.com  Wed Apr  7 19:50:00 2010
From: box at blogdetroit.com (marytee)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:50:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Rochester Linux and Unix Enthusiasts Monthly Meetup April 21
In-Reply-To: <4145b6791003261247k1b491635p7f991d56287d4d65@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100316205458.GF3557@grossmeier.net>
	<4145b6791003261247k1b491635p7f991d56287d4d65@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BBD1A28.7010306@blogdetroit.com>


To Anyone up in the Rochester /Troy area 

The April Meetup of the Rochester Linux and Unix Enthusiasts will take 
place here:

Panera Bread Company 
<http://www.meetup.com/asternix/venue/233047/?eventId=13119030&popup=true>
823 E Big Beaver Rd
Troy, MI 48007
(248) 526-0822

Wednesday April 21 at 7PM

Here is a link to the meetup page

http://www.meetup.com/asternix/calendar/13119030/

Googlemaps link: *http://tinyurl.com/ybywbdz*

This is a relatively fledgling group, looking to grow.  If you're 
interested, sign up on the meetup page.

Thanks,


Mary


From otakurider at gmail.com  Wed Apr  7 20:14:32 2010
From: otakurider at gmail.com (Gmail-otakurider)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 20:14:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Droid report
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E0370492B56F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E0370492B56F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <4BBD1FE8.6040908@gmail.com>

 I will concur with the writeup. Had my Droid for over a month and am
loving it better then the iphone.
Now that the 2.1 update in out and installed I find it is much faster in
all functions from scrolling to typing.
Also the pinch and zoom on the default browser is a welcome addition. I
would like more menu screens but
I am getting used to only adding really wanted apps. If you pick up the
charging station it will give another micro
USB connector so that will be nice. A main point I don't like is the
fact all my contacts are on Google. Having a palm 700p
previous I do like the idea of only having the contacts on the laptop
and the phone only.

As the appstore is expanded daily and the apps are of good quality and
quantity. Multi-app stability when switching from one to
another so far has never been a issue. I would recommend a wired or
wireless headset the phone does get a bit warm
after a while of talking. Having used the VNC/RDP client it is strange
to have the size of the screen but still able to see
what is going on on the other system. The app is not super stable but
usable for playing around. The SSH clients are
rock solid as well as the FTP client/server app. It has a very good
weather, twitter, facebook and Digg app.

A few sites to look into is droid-life and droid-forums (Google for
proper URL) these sites have great info on what is out there
and any issues.

Rooting Droid, still not sure if I will or now so will keep all posted.
I have been expanding a blog with my tips and ideas on blogger.



Thanks

Pat Baker


Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  I've had my Droid phone for close to a week, and figured I'd give a
> little report on it.
>
>  Hardware-wise, it's awfully good. The screen is beautiful. The camera
> takes decent pictures and good video. The speakers are entirely
> competent and the sound is good through headphones. The keyboard isn't
> quite as good as the rest of it, but it's perfectly serviceable, or will
> be once I've messed with the software a little. The micro-USB hookup is
> mildly annoying; I have a ton of mini-USB cables laying around, but only
> the micro-USB cable that came with the Droid, for now. (Anyone know a
> cheap source of micro-USB cables?)
>
>  The software is pretty good. Definitely some rough edges, but workable.
> The internet functions are solid: the browser's very usable, email works
> fine, etc. Had no trouble hooking up to my 802.11g WAP, etc. I was able
> to find SSH and VNC clients; haven't tried the VNC client yet, but the
> SSH client did well.
>
>  Downloaded a few games and toys, enjoyable enough. I've managed to move
> over my contacts and secured passwords from my Treo with some conversion
> tools. Still working on the calendar, but it looks doable - I found a
> Perl script to convert a Palm calendar to iCal format, and that should
> be importable once I remove some personal entries.
>
>  Video plays very well on this device. With an 854x480 screen, there's
> room for every single pixel on a DVD. I've put together some scripts
> that convert DVDs and videos for viewing on the Droid (which doesn't
> like the AVI or FLV formats but seems happy with MP4) and the results
> are a joy to behold. Commuting on the bus is going to be even more
> entertaining now. F/X blockbusters were a little anemic at 320x240 (to
> fit on the Treo's 320x320 screen) but on the Droid they look beautiful.
>
>  There are several programs that I need to write. First up, to my
> surprise, is a decent text editor. I figured out how to cut and paste,
> but none of the free text editors I've looked at support search or
> replace, nor jumping to a particular point in a file. Fortunately,
> development doesn't look too hard.
>
>  The second thing up is a modification to keyboard input. On the Treo,
> there was a utility called "KeyCaps" that sped up typing considerably.
> Hold a key for a brief time (I had it set to 1/4 sec) and you'd get the
> capital letter. Double-tap within a set time (again, 1/4 sec for me),
> and you'd get the punctuation character. Not having to chord keys on a
> small keyboard is very useful, and makes a surprising difference in
> typing speed and ease.
>
>  I want to make a client for my "Ostiary" program, of course, and an
> encrypted, secure diary/journal program.
>
>  After that, I figure it should be possible to port the old "Maelstrom"
> game (Asteroids clone from the original color Macs) without too much
> trouble. By the time I've got all the above under my belt, I should be
> ready to port a BZflag client that uses the accelerometers for
> steering...
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317
>
>    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right;
>         and if wrong, to be set right." - Carl Schurz
>
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>   



From az at delqn.com  Thu Apr  8 10:14:38 2010
From: az at delqn.com (Delyan Raychev)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 10:14:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] =?utf-8?q?any_GNU/Linux_Contributors=3F?=
Message-ID: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>

Are there any active GNU/Linux developers/contributors subscribed to this
list?

If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
e-mail.

This is the first step in an attempt to determine how much of the Free
Software revolution is actually fueled from the Detroit-Flint-AnnArbor
area.

Thank you!


From mark.stanislav at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 11:08:22 2010
From: mark.stanislav at gmail.com (Mark Stanislav)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:08:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
Message-ID: <315F66AC-B877-4F1D-9D24-A2FA5B9F9E39@gmail.com>

Could I ask what the purpose of your research is? Just interested.



On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Delyan Raychev <az at delqn.com> wrote:

> Are there any active GNU/Linux developers/contributors subscribed to  
> this
> list?
>
> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to  
> this
> e-mail.
>
> This is the first step in an attempt to determine how much of the Free
> Software revolution is actually fueled from the Detroit-Flint-AnnArbor
> area.
>
> Thank you!
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From az at delqn.com  Thu Apr  8 11:32:04 2010
From: az at delqn.com (Delyan Raychev)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 11:32:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] =?utf-8?q?any_GNU/Linux_Contributors=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <315F66AC-B877-4F1D-9D24-A2FA5B9F9E39@gmail.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<315F66AC-B877-4F1D-9D24-A2FA5B9F9E39@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfb81d9a8be05495eb578856d84186e9@delqn.com>

The purpose of the research is driven by the following event:

Less than a month ago I attended Libre Planet 2010
(http://groups.fsf.org/wiki/LibrePlanet2010).  It was inspiring and
eye-opening experience.  I also got a chance to attended a few sessions
with other GNU hackers ('hacking' as in developing/writing code for various
project, NOT stealing, breaching security or breaking laws)

Also - had a chance to visit a few hack-a-thons at MIT and was fascinated
by the community.

I found these communities and events to be very productive, inspiring,
encouraging and educational.  (Here is what an MIT hackathon looks like:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/linenfabric/4459037703/)

And since I have not been able to find similar community in the Metro
Detroit area - decided to ask and see if GNU/Linux developers exist at all
in the greater Detroit area.


Del


On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:08:22 -0400, Mark Stanislav
 wrote:
> Could I ask what the purpose of your research is? Just interested.
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 8, 2010, at 10:14 AM, Delyan Raychev wrote:
> 
>> Are there any active GNU/Linux developers/contributors subscribed to 
>> this
>> list?
>>
>> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
>> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to 
>> this
>> e-mail.
>>
>> This is the first step in an attempt to determine how much of the Free
>> Software revolution is actually fueled from the Detroit-Flint-AnnArbor
>> area.
>>
>> Thank you!
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Apr  8 11:41:35 2010
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:41:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03704A7DE56@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Delyan Raychev

> Are there any active GNU/Linux developers/contributors subscribed to this
> list?

Well, I wrote and maintain some software called "Ostiary": http://ingles.homeunix.net/software/ost/

It hasn't been updated recently, but it hasn't needed to be.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                      (313) 227-2317

 "If PacMan had affected us as kids we'd be running around in
 dark rooms, munching pills and listening to electronic music."
                          - iso

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.



From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Apr  8 22:13:52 2010
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:13:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>

2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
> e-mail.

I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:

Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner

TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman

TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10

They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 22:46:50 2010
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:46:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] DIYers Hack Windows Mobile Phones to Run Android
Message-ID: <r2pb02c40e91004081946s393cceafj12eef9f3f5831a45@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting way to recycle an old Windows phone:
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/windows-mobile-android/


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  8 23:12:24 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 23:12:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
>> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
>> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
>> e-mail.
> 
> I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
> 
> Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
> 

Why not just call it filerunner?

Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
name needs to begin with the letter j?


I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
for independent programs to all start with J...I just
don't get it.


> TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
> 

Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?

Why not just call it ViewMan?


> TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10
> 
> They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
> code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
> days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.
> 


From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr  9 08:56:19 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:56:19 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Fw: Metro Detroit Linux Users Group on CNN Airport
	Network/American Ai	rlines
Message-ID: <20100409.085619.25571.1@webmail05.vgs.untd.com>



---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: "Steven James" <sj at skyradionet.net>
To: "Raymond" <president at mdlug.org>
Subject: Metro Detroit Linux Users Group on CNN Airport Network/American Airlines
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 16:50:39 -0700

Time-Sensitive Material
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group

Hi Raymond,

Great news!  The rates for our upcoming edition of "The Innovators" including both radio and TV exposure have been lowered substantially.

We will produce a TV commercial for you to air multiple times on CNN Airport Network throughout 48 of the nation's busiest airports, as well as a talk radio interview to broadcast two full months on American Airlines reaching 8.4 million travelers starting at only $4,895.

For complete details, click http://www.skyradionet.net/cnn.

Please contact me asap as this offer will be sold out soon.

Steven James
Producer
Sky Radio Network
5320 Laurel Canyon Boulevard
Valley Village, CA 91607
818-232-7069 Direct
818-301-2085 Fax
sj at skyradionet.net
www.skyradionet.com

Producers of the #1 Talk Shows in the Sky and on the Web

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, copy, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.  To be removed from our invitation list, reply to this email stating your intent or click the following link: Unsubscribe me from this list
____________________________________________________________
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Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
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From smunro622 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 09:59:52 2010
From: smunro622 at gmail.com (Stuart Munro)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 09:59:52 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] DIYers Hack Windows Mobile Phones to Run Android
In-Reply-To: <r2pb02c40e91004081946s393cceafj12eef9f3f5831a45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <r2pb02c40e91004081946s393cceafj12eef9f3f5831a45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <w2v710dfd771004090659n4b0c1644yb3720f00e49d9c5d@mail.gmail.com>

i have a old motorola Q black i can donate is any one wants to try

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Interesting way to recycle an old Windows phone:
> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/windows-mobile-android/
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a "Yes"
merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
-- Mahatma Gandhi


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Apr  9 10:37:43 2010
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins II)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:37:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] DIYers Hack Windows Mobile Phones to Run Android
In-Reply-To: <w2v710dfd771004090659n4b0c1644yb3720f00e49d9c5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100409145232.97FC74C06B@impelind.com>

Sounds awesome. I have an old HTC Smartphone that I will have to see if I
can do that to.

If it can be done and works well... I might hold off on switching up to an
iPhone for a little while longer. (I'll still be getting an iPhone since it
has integration features with my car and iPhone specific apps available from
the manufacturer of my car.)

-Rob
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Munro
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:00 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Cc: LugWash
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] DIYers Hack Windows Mobile Phones to Run Android
> 
> i have a old motorola Q black i can donate is any one wants to try
> 
> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Jeff Hanson 
> <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Interesting way to recycle an old Windows phone:
> > http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/windows-mobile-android/
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater 
> than a "Yes"
> merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
> -- Mahatma Gandhi
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From danno at umich.edu  Fri Apr  9 10:37:56 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 10:37:56 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>

Perhaps you should make use of the freedoms accorded to you
by the GPL and release your own versions, named like you want
them named.

On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 11:12:24PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Michael Corral wrote:
> > 2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
> >> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
> >> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
> >> e-mail.
> > 
> > I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
> > 
> > Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
> > 
> 
> Why not just call it filerunner?
> 
> Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
> name needs to begin with the letter j?
> 
> 
> I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
> suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
> for independent programs to all start with J...I just
> don't get it.
> 
> 
> > TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
> > 
> 
> Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?
> 
> Why not just call it ViewMan?
> 
> 
> > TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10
> > 
> > They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
> > code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
> > days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From fireblosom at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 13:34:02 2010
From: fireblosom at gmail.com (Michael Persello)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:34:02 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Officers meeting
Message-ID: <h2qcc6463331004091034nd8c7b29fv6c5967efdd25142a@mail.gmail.com>

Let's not forget that the officers meeting is at 10:30 am tomorrow before
our regular meeting.



Michael Persello


From raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 16:34:03 2010
From: raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com (Raymond S McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:34:03 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
	<20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BBF8F3B.3020907@gmail.com>


I don't think that a duplicate fork of a project just for the sake of a
better name would really contribute much to the free software environment.

Aaron asks a legitimate question. Not that I really care. Come to think
of it, the naming convention that Michael uses does have the affect that
alphabetized lists of of software packages *do not* sort by topic, or
purpose. This is a noticeable lack of convenience. Yes, most package
managers do provide a search feature. But they usually start with an
alphabetized list.



Dan Pritts wrote:
> Perhaps you should make use of the freedoms accorded to you
> by the GPL and release your own versions, named like you want
> them named.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 11:12:24PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Michael Corral wrote:
>>> 2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
>>>> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
>>>> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
>>>> e-mail.
>>> I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
>>>
>>> Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
>>>
>> Why not just call it filerunner?
>>
>> Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
>> name needs to begin with the letter j?
>>
>>
>> I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
>> suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
>> for independent programs to all start with J...I just
>> don't get it.
>>
>>
>>> TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
>>>
>> Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?
>>
>> Why not just call it ViewMan?
>>
>>
>>> TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10
>>>
>>> They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
>>> code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
>>> days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.
>>>
> danno
> --
> dan pritts
> danno at umich.edu
> 734-929-9770



From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  9 16:13:37 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:13:37 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
	<20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BBF8A71.4050806@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> Perhaps you should make use of the freedoms accorded to you
> by the GPL and release your own versions, named like you want
> them named.
> 

I'm just wondering why software authors prefix J or tk in
front of apps written in java and tk,  but we DON'T see
this sort of prefix the name with a letter signifying the
programming language for programs written  in Fortran,
Basic (any variant), Pascal, C, C++, Lisp, Simula, perl, etc.

Why is it that this is standard procedure for Java and TK,
but not for any other language...either compile or interpreted?

> On Thu, Apr 08, 2010 at 11:12:24PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Michael Corral wrote:
>>> 2010-04-08, Monsieur Delyan Raychev a ecrit:
>>>> If you have committed code/art/text to any GNU/Linux related project
>>>> within the last year - please send me a direct message or reply to this
>>>> e-mail.
>>> I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
>>>
>>> Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
>>>
>> Why not just call it filerunner?
>>
>> Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
>> name needs to begin with the letter j?
>>
>>
>> I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
>> suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
>> for independent programs to all start with J...I just
>> don't get it.
>>
>>
>>> TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
>>>
>> Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?
>>
>> Why not just call it ViewMan?
>>
>>
>>> TK10: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tk-10
>>>
>>> They haven't been updated in the last year, but that's because the
>>> code is so rock-solid! :) Actually, I should update them one of these
>>> days, plus release the Java-based IRC client I've been working on.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> danno
> --
> dan pritts
> danno at umich.edu
> 734-929-9770
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Apr  9 21:16:06 2010
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:16:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004092050100.2299@banana.sluggo.net>

2010-04-08, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> I've written a few free GPL'ed programs for Linux:
>>
>> Jfilerunner: http://freshmeat.net/projects/jfilerunner
>
> Why not just call it filerunner?

Because that name was already taken. :) In fact, my program is pretty
much a Java clone of Filerunner, with some improvements.

> Why is it that most every java programmer thinks that his program
> name needs to begin with the letter j?

Heh, I guess you're gonna hate the name of my Java xchat clone. :)

> I can understand a family of programs (such as the KDE
> suite naming most programs to fit the pattern k*), but
> for independent programs to all start with J...I just
> don't get it.

There are lots of Gtk+ apps that begin with g, Qt apps that begin
with q, Python apps that begin with py, etc.

>> TkViewMan: http://freshmeat.net/projects/tkviewman
>
> Same thing goes for tk-writers. WHY?
>
> Why not just call it ViewMan?

Because I want people to know that it uses Tcl/Tk.

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Apr  9 21:29:51 2010
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:29:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <4BBF8F3B.3020907@gmail.com>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>
	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>
	<20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BBF8F3B.3020907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004092118270.2299@banana.sluggo.net>

2010-04-09, Monsieur Raymond S McLaughlin a ecrit:
> Aaron asks a legitimate question. Not that I really care. Come to think
> of it, the naming convention that Michael uses does have the affect that
> alphabetized lists of of software packages *do not* sort by topic, or
> purpose. This is a noticeable lack of convenience. Yes, most package
> managers do provide a search feature. But they usually start with an
> alphabetized list.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that the name of
a program should begin with letters or words that indicate its
purpose? So how would "Firefox" or "vi" fit in with that?

Michael


From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr  9 22:19:23 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 02:19:23 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Officers meeting
Message-ID: <20100409.221923.12917.0@webmail14.vgs.untd.com>


Okay, sounds good to me.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Michael Persello <fireblosom at gmail.com>
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
Subject: [mdlug] Officers meeting
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:34:02 -0400

Let's not forget that the officers meeting is at 10:30 am tomorrow before
our regular meeting.



Michael Persello
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
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From tesral at wowway.com  Fri Apr  9 22:35:42 2010
From: tesral at wowway.com (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 22:35:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] any GNU/Linux Contributors?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004092118270.2299@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <1a9b29f7acf6949f6ed5774e3babca57@delqn.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004082206230.3210@banana.sluggo.net>	<4BBE9B18.6010001@gmail.com>	<20100409143756.GA36762@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BBF8F3B.3020907@gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004092118270.2299@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <4BBFE3FE.2070807@wowway.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that the name of
> a program should begin with letters or words that indicate its
> purpose? So how would "Firefox" or "vi" fit in with that?
>   

It is one way to do it. Not saying it is the right way, should be done
or should not be done. However it is a valid reason to do it that way. 
Not everyone agrees.  If they did we would have MzFireFox and
MzThunderbird.  We do not.


-- 
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.

We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is
in it -- and stop there -- lest we be like the cat that sits down on a
hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again, and
that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one any more.
-Mark Twain
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org


From john_re at fastmail.us  Sun Apr 18 01:31:38 2010
From: john_re at fastmail.us (giovanni_re)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 22:31:38 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] Linux at BerkeleyTIP-Global meeting on Sunday April 18
 12N-3P, & April 27
Message-ID: <1271568698.8455.1370527791@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Come discuss Linux via VOIP. :)
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/voice-voip-conferencing

Hot topics: Ubuntu 10.04, Free Culuture, VOIP, Set up the web server &
mail list & asterisk/freeswitch on the BTIP box with Ubuntu 10.04?

Tues April 27 5-6P VOIP online meeting also.

http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/

Join the mail list, tell us what you're interested in.
http://sites.google.com/site/berkeleytip/mailing-lists


From petertheplumber at att.net  Thu Apr 15 17:42:46 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:42:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AOL IMAP
Message-ID: <20100415174246.031b9c4f@Nokia-N800-43-7>


Hi Everyone,
    I was very surprised to find out that AOL supports imap client
access. Indeed AOL has instructions on how to set up email clients to
get email <http://postmaster.aol.com/imap/>. I found this pleasantly
surprising recently, being able to set up a client to pull email in;
for a friend; rather than have to go to the web. Does anyone have any
knowledge about how it acts, compared to the other free services?
-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber
Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet


From petertheplumber at att.net  Fri Apr 16 06:49:00 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 06:49:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AOL IMAP
Message-ID: <20100416064900.1f850ae8@Nokia-N800-43-7>


Hi Everyone,
    I was very surprised to find out that AOL supports imap client
access. Indeed AOL has instructions on how to set up email clients to
get email <http://postmaster.aol.com/imap/>. I found this pleasantly
surprising recently, being able to set up a client to pull email in;
for a friend; rather than have to go to the web. Does anyone have any
knowledge about how it acts, compared to the other free services?
-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber
Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet


From raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 19:10:39 2010
From: raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com (Raymond S McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:10:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>

test


From skyefire at skyefire.org  Fri Apr 16 21:59:14 2010
From: skyefire at skyefire.org (David McMillan)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 21:59:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
Message-ID: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>


	I have never had this happen before on any of my other Linux machines, 
but this is the second time it's happening on this one, on installs of 
two different versions of Ubuntu.  So far, I can't find the culprit, or 
a way to fix this.

	I use this machine as a headless file server, so I keep almost nothing 
in the /home directory, which has its own 45GB partition on the boot 
drive.  All of the served drives are physically separate drives.

	And today, I logged in, and discovered that my /home directory was down 
to 0% free.  It was something more like 60% or better the other day. 
There's nothing in my /home directory but my own home, and lost+found, 
which is empty.

	I had about 2GB of working files in my home directory.  I eliminated 
them, and got back some free space according to df -h, although only a 
few hundred MB.  A few minutes later, df -h showed my /home partition to 
be back to 0% free.  But I don't have any programs running aside from 
the samba and ssh server daemons.  According to the Disk Usage Analyzer, 
my own home directory only has 92MB of contents.

	I'm stumped.  There's nothing that explains this.
I looked for ballooning log files in /var/log, but the total of all the 
log files was only a couple gigs.

	Since the unique thing about this machine vs my other linux boxes is 
that it's a server, my guess is that this is somehow related.  But I 
can't find *what* is eating up all the space in the partition.  Does 
this remind anyone of anything?  Or does anyone know of a good way to 
list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?



From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr 16 08:07:01 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:07:01 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Cloud computing unconference
Message-ID: <20100416.080701.26648.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com>

 
Cloud computing unconference:
http://www.cloudcamp.org/detroit
____________________________________________________________
Medicare 2010
Looking For Medicare Supplement Insurance? Request Your Free Info Kit!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bc8533ec21c92a3a3bst04vuc


From gib at juno.com  Sun Apr 18 11:22:17 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 15:22:17 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100418.112217.25705.0@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>


I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.

http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html


____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb2404aaa8935053fst05vuc


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 19 10:57:03 2010
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Network mapping SW
Message-ID: <29816.26946.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm not sure if my post made it.
?
What network mapping software is out there? 
?
Is there one that creates a visio drawing?
?
?
David C. Lane 


      


From gib at juno.com  Sun Apr 18 16:23:59 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:23:59 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] MDLUG: Tony as webmaster
Message-ID: <20100418.162359.19760.2@webmail03.vgs.untd.com>


Anyone know how we can get Tony set up as the webmaster for the MDLUG website?

____________________________________________________________
$13/Month Car Insurance?
Insurance deal just passed now allows you to get car insurance for $13
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb6a981c65b2eff85st03vuc


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Thu Apr 15 17:33:35 2010
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:33:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
Message-ID: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>

How can I get some simple stats from a data stream of numbers using R?

Here's what I would like to do:

$ seq 1 100 | stats.r
 Min.   :  1.00
 1st Qu.: 25.75
 Median : 50.50
 Mean   : 50.50
 3rd Qu.: 75.25
 Max.   :100.00

Where stats.r is an R script that returns simple stats on the data.

Here is what I am currently doing:

$ seq 1 100 > file.csv
$ R
> num <- read.csv("file.csv",head=FALSE)

> summary(num)
      V1
 Min.   :  1.00
 1st Qu.: 25.75
 Median : 50.50
 Mean   : 50.50
 3rd Qu.: 75.25
 Max.   :100.00

That works, but I'd prefer to pipe the data in rather than go through
the intermediary of a file or a named pipe.

Regards,
- Robert


From tony at bemushosting.com  Mon Apr 19 20:41:36 2010
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:41:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] test
In-Reply-To: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
References: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1271724096.4671.2.camel@tony-laptop>

Reply to the test

On Mon, 2010-04-19 at 19:10 -0400, Raymond S McLaughlin wrote:
> test
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug




From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Apr 19 20:57:55 2010
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:57:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
In-Reply-To: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004192052370.2428@banana.sluggo.net>

2010-04-15, Monsieur Robert Citek a ecrit:
> How can I get some simple stats from a data stream of numbers using R?
>
> Here's what I would like to do:
>
> $ seq 1 100 | stats.r
> Min.   :  1.00
> 1st Qu.: 25.75
> Median : 50.50
> Mean   : 50.50
> 3rd Qu.: 75.25
> Max.   :100.00
>
> Where stats.r is an R script that returns simple stats on the data.

You could do it like this:

R --vanilla --slave --args $(seq 1 100) < stats.r

where the file stats.r consists of these two lines:

num <- as.numeric(commandArgs(TRUE))
summary(num)


Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 21:03:30 2010
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:03:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
Message-ID: <q2sb02c40e91004191803r5f101989y8ba445d7dc4acba4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 9:59 PM, David McMillan <skyefire at skyefire.org> wrote:
> ? ? ? ?I had about 2GB of working files in my home directory. ?I eliminated
> them, and got back some free space according to df -h, although only a
> few hundred MB. ?A few minutes later, df -h showed my /home partition to
> be back to 0% free. ?But I don't have any programs running aside from
> the samba and ssh server daemons. ?According to the Disk Usage Analyzer,
> my own home directory only has 92MB of contents.
>
> ? ? ? ?I'm stumped. ?There's nothing that explains this.
> I looked for ballooning log files in /var/log, but the total of all the
> log files was only a couple gigs.
>

Use the lsof command and grep the output for your home directory.

> ? ? ? ?Since the unique thing about this machine vs my other linux boxes is
> that it's a server, my guess is that this is somehow related. ?But I
> can't find *what* is eating up all the space in the partition. ?Does
> this remind anyone of anything? ?Or does anyone know of a good way to
> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?
>

Use the "find" command.  Something like:
find /home -type f -exec ls -la '{}' \;

This will run "ls -la" against every file found.  Capture the output
to a text file.


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 21:48:18 2010
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:48:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
Message-ID: <z2h4145b6791004191848jad0e9c02x6a0ba26752668c0@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 9:59 PM, David McMillan <skyefire at skyefire.org> wrote:
> ? ? ? ?Since the unique thing about this machine vs my other linux boxes is
> that it's a server, my guess is that this is somehow related. ?But I
> can't find *what* is eating up all the space in the partition. ?Does
> this remind anyone of anything?

Yes.  A running process is writing to a file that has been deleted.
The process is still running and writing data to the file, but there's
no record of the file.  Here's an example of how to do that:

$ for i in {1..10000} ; do date ; sleep 1 ; done > foobar &
$ rm -f foobar
$ lsof -p $!

> Or does anyone know of a good way to
> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?

$ du -k /home/ | sort -n

Good luck and let us know how things go.

Regards,
- Robert


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Mon Apr 19 22:49:42 2010
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:49:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1004192052370.2428@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.00.1004192052370.2428@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <p2k4145b6791004191949g725d090ei7d9e401f701bbb03@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> You could do it like this:
>
> R --vanilla --slave --args $(seq 1 100) < stats.r
>
> where the file stats.r consists of these two lines:
>
> num <- as.numeric(commandArgs(TRUE))
> summary(num)

Thanks, Michael.  That'll work in a pinch for small datasets.  Looks
like for larger sets I'll have to find some other way.

One way I've been exploring is piping a script to R, using bash's
here-document feature with variable interpolation.  Works even for 1
MM numbers:

$ cmd="seq 1 1000000"  ; { cat <<eof
summary(read.csv(pipe("$cmd"), head=FALSE))
eof
} | time -p R --slave
       V1
 Min.   :      1
 1st Qu.: 250001
 Median : 500000
 Mean   : 500000
 3rd Qu.: 750000
 Max.   :1000000
real 12.50
user 15.98
sys 0.26

I can then substitute various commands for the cmd variable.  Not
ideal, but will work.

Regards,
- Robert


From carl at carltm.com  Tue Apr 20 05:57:10 2010
From: carl at carltm.com (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 05:57:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
Message-ID: <f0a585114f0c692f89050bea706a2777.squirrel@www.carltm.com>

David McMillan wrote:
> this remind anyone of anything?  Or does anyone know of a good way to
> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?

To find 20 largest files at least 1 gig in size:
find /home -type f -size +1G -exec du -m {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20

To find 20 largest directories:
find /home -type d -exec du -sm {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20

c





From petertheplumber at att.net  Tue Apr 20 07:59:25 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 07:59:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] test
In-Reply-To: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
References: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100420075925.301502be@Nokia-N800-43-7>

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:10:39 -0400
Raymond S McLaughlin <raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com> wrote:

> test
> 
    Whew, I was worried I'd been excommunicated
-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber
Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet


From skyefire at skyefire.org  Tue Apr 20 08:16:43 2010
From: skyefire at skyefire.org (David McMillan)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:16:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <f0a585114f0c692f89050bea706a2777.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
	<f0a585114f0c692f89050bea706a2777.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
Message-ID: <4BCD9B2B.6060503@skyefire.org>

On 4/20/2010 5:57 AM, Carl T. Miller wrote:
> David McMillan wrote:
>> this remind anyone of anything?  Or does anyone know of a good way to
>> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?
>
> To find 20 largest files at least 1 gig in size:
> find /home -type f -size +1G -exec du -m {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20
>
> To find 20 largest directories:
> find /home -type d -exec du -sm {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20


	...I rebooted, and /home went back to normal size.  What.  The.  Heck. 
  I am completely baffled.  Happy, but baffled.

	Still, the last time this happened to me, using 9.04 on this same 
machine, rebooting most definitely did NOT fix this problem.  So I'll be 
keeping these posts for future reference.  Thanks, everyone.




From billings at negate.org  Tue Apr 20 08:39:22 2010
From: billings at negate.org (Jonathan Billings)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 08:39:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
In-Reply-To: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100420123922.GA16239@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu>

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 05:33:35PM -0400, Robert Citek wrote:
> That works, but I'd prefer to pipe the data in rather than go through
> the intermediary of a file or a named pipe.

I believe you can refer to "stdin" (I've also seen /dev/stdin) as the
file in scan:

% cat test.r 
#!/usr/bin/Rscript

num <- scan("stdin",quiet=TRUE)
summary(num)

% seq 1 100 | ./test.r 
   Min. 1st Qu.  Median    Mean 3rd Qu.    Max. 
   1.00   25.75   50.50   50.50   75.25  100.00 


-- 
Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org>


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Tue Apr 20 09:00:16 2010
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:00:16 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition
In-Reply-To: <4BCD9B2B.6060503@skyefire.org>
References: <4BC915F2.2080903@skyefire.org>
	<f0a585114f0c692f89050bea706a2777.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
	<4BCD9B2B.6060503@skyefire.org>
Message-ID: <9FB6372000B099469B46478B643EE4690225D9527A@EXCCRVS1.mi.corp.rockfin.com>

This behavior describes exactly the scenario that someone else proposed of a file being created, written to, left open, and then removed and continuously written to.  Your best bet if this happens again is to 'lsof | grep /home' and or 'fuser -c /home' to find any processes that have files open on that filesystem.

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of David McMillan
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:17 AM
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Something's eating my /home partition

On 4/20/2010 5:57 AM, Carl T. Miller wrote:
> David McMillan wrote:
>> this remind anyone of anything?  Or does anyone know of a good way to
>> list all files and/or directories in a partition sorted for size?
>
> To find 20 largest files at least 1 gig in size:
> find /home -type f -size +1G -exec du -m {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20
>
> To find 20 largest directories:
> find /home -type d -exec du -sm {} \; | sort -nr | head -n20


	...I rebooted, and /home went back to normal size.  What.  The.  Heck. 
  I am completely baffled.  Happy, but baffled.

	Still, the last time this happened to me, using 9.04 on this same 
machine, rebooting most definitely did NOT fix this problem.  So I'll be 
keeping these posts for future reference.  Thanks, everyone.


_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 10:56:16 2010
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:56:16 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] simple stats from piping numbers into R?
In-Reply-To: <20100420123922.GA16239@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu>
References: <k2o4145b6791004151433ta7587423o8ed76fa66f93be4b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100420123922.GA16239@caen-gx755.engin.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <j2u4145b6791004200756n20d9fd1esc8ffb926f5eb0e70@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Jonathan Billings <billings at negate.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 05:33:35PM -0400, Robert Citek wrote:
>> That works, but I'd prefer to pipe the data in rather than go through
>> the intermediary of a file or a named pipe.
>
> I believe you can refer to "stdin" (I've also seen /dev/stdin) as the
> file in scan:
>
> % cat test.r
> #!/usr/bin/Rscript
>
> num <- scan("stdin",quiet=TRUE)
> summary(num)
>
> % seq 1 100 | ./test.r
> ? Min. 1st Qu. ?Median ? ?Mean 3rd Qu. ? ?Max.
> ? 1.00 ? 25.75 ? 50.50 ? 50.50 ? 75.25 ?100.00

Perfect!  Rscript with -e and "stdin" were the trick.   Here's exactly
what I wanted to do:

$ seq 1 1000000 |\
time -p Rscript -e 'summary(read.csv("stdin", head=FALSE))'

       V1
 Min.   :      1
 1st Qu.: 250001
 Median : 500000
 Mean   : 500000
 3rd Qu.: 750000
 Max.   :1000000
real 11.07
user 10.55
sys 0.20

Thanks for all the replies.

Regards,
- Robert


From gib at juno.com  Tue Apr 20 11:26:34 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:26:34 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Message-ID: <20100420.112634.10148.2@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>

I'll be around.  I hope to stop in.  

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Greg Grossmeier <greg at grossmeier.net>
To: Michigan Ubuntu Local Community Team <ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:44:02 -0400

Here's the event:
http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/96/detail/

Please RSVP so we know how many people to expect.

Rock!

-- 
|       Greg Grossmeier |
| http://grossmeier.net |

-- 
ubuntu-us-mi mailing list
ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-mi
____________________________________________________________
TODAY: iPads for $23.74?
Special Report: Macbooks are being auctioned for an incredible 80% off!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcdc7f6b01d546376st05vuc


From gib at juno.com  Tue Apr 20 14:29:28 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:29:28 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Message-ID: <20100420.142928.14771.0@webmail01.vgs.untd.com>


Oh, I think Jorge (a member we see in the MUG.org meetings) is going to do a Ubuntu Q&A Friday April 30th 6:00 PM at Penguicon.  So, we can go directly from his presentatin to the bar.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
To: ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com
Cc: discuss at mug.org, mdlug at mdlug.org, ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:26:34 GMT

I'll be around.  I hope to stop in.  

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Greg Grossmeier <greg at grossmeier.net>
To: Michigan Ubuntu Local Community Team <ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com>
Subject: [ubuntu-us-mi] East Side Lucid Release Party!
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:44:02 -0400

Here's the event:
http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/team/96/detail/

Please RSVP so we know how many people to expect.

Rock!

-- 
|       Greg Grossmeier |
| http://grossmeier.net |

-- 
ubuntu-us-mi mailing list
ubuntu-us-mi at lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-mi


____________________________________________________________
TODAY: iPads for $23.74?
Special Report: Macbooks are being auctioned for an incredible 80% off!
QuiBids.com

____________________________________________________________
Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
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From mdlug at wowway.com  Tue Apr 20 16:16:33 2010
From: mdlug at wowway.com (Dean Durant)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:16:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <262184449.152481.1271794183691.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>

Hello, I've just finished reading Dan Bernstein's comments on what he calls the IPv6 mess. I think his points are valid. 

However, someone out there (IETF, IANA, ICANN, I don't know) obviously controls those Class E "reserved for future use" addresses. My idea is that while it was smart to reserve them, it's not smart to never use them. If now is not the time to use them, when will be? Is this an old idea, or not workable ? 

So I say, whoever controls those addresses should say, OK, we'll give you one, or two, or ten, but, by law (pass the law if needed), you must use them to route back and forth between IPv4 and IPv6. Give financial incentives if necessary. 

Only give them to the highest level providers. They then can turn around and charge a small premium (perhaps) for access to IPv6 in this fashion. People can still route directly from IPv6 to IPv6 on their own, but Bernstein has pointed out why this will never happen: there is no existing IPv6 infrastructure. 

http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/ipv6mess.html 

Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to IPv4. My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as makes sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all are there? 

However, I am not a networking professional. Just a curious bystander. But, if the U.S. Congress has stated that IPv4 exhaustion is a national security issue, and China *is* building an IPv6 infrastructure, maybe "natting forever" is not going to work. 

Thoughts? 


From jjn at nuge.com  Tue Apr 20 17:12:20 2010
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:12:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>

Greetings,

On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, Dean Durant wrote:

> Hello, I've just finished reading Dan Bernstein's comments on what he
> calls the IPv6 mess. I think his points are valid.

   Be carefull not to drink the refreshments at that KoolAid stand...

 
> However, someone out there (IETF, IANA, ICANN, I don't know) obviously
> controls those Class E "reserved for future use" addresses. My idea is
> that while it was smart to reserve them, it's not smart to never use
> them. If now is not the time to use them, when will be? Is this an old
> idea, or not workable ?

   IANA released a couple more Class-A (or /8) blocks just a couple weeks
ago and a couple more this week.  One of them the 1.0.0.0/8 space which
will go to YouTube.  TONS of garbage in that space as every damn hotel
WiFi hotspot uses 1.2.3.4 to sign-on or off their networks.  It also has
tons of spam traffic and other garbage.  Merit is helping YouTube measure
and plan for how to filter the trash when they put this address space to
use.

   My point is, there are still a number of MUCH larger blocks than all
the tiny Class-E blocks still un-assigned.  IANA is delving them out on a
NEED basis -- the IANA policy has always been you need to PROVE you will
use the space efficiently before you can get any assigned.

   And just an FYI -- a /8 has a street value of about $500,000 per year
nowadays!

 
> So I say, whoever controls those addresses should say, OK, we'll give
> you one, or two, or ten, but, by law (pass the law if needed), you must
> use them to route back and forth between IPv4 and IPv6. Give financial
> incentives if necessary.

   Laws?  In what country?  No country 'owns' the address space.  
International organizations control the Internet, not the U.S.


 
> Only give them to the highest level providers. They then can turn around
> and charge a small premium (perhaps) for access to IPv6 in this fashion.
> People can still route directly from IPv6 to IPv6 on their own, but
> Bernstein has pointed out why this will never happen: there is no
> existing IPv6 infrastructure.
> 
> http://cr.yp.to/djbdns/ipv6mess.html 
> 
> Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to
> IPv4. My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not
> saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as makes
> sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all are there?

   Exactly, IPv6 is NOT an extension - was never meant to be.  V6 does a
lot more than just provide addresses.  IPv6 is not just about more
addresses, V6 has automatic neighbor discovery, some automatic
configuration facilities, and various security features all built into it.
     

   There are over 318,000 "networks" announced on the Internet (big I) as
of last weeks reports.  Each of these announces numerous blocks of IP
address space (see "the CIDR report").  In those reports you will note
that only 2/3rds of the IPv4 space is actually being USED.  The rest is
either ASSIGNED but UNANNOUNCED, or is not yet assigned to anyone.  If
companies/networks would clean up what they do use, a ton more addresses
*could* be recovered.  But it's agreed that the work would better be spent
to migrate to IPv6 instead, rather than re-number then a few years later
have to migrate to V6 anyway.  Might as well just do it once.

 
> However, I am not a networking professional. Just a curious bystander.
> But, if the U.S. Congress has stated that IPv4 exhaustion is a national
> security issue, and China *is* building an IPv6 infrastructure, maybe
> "natting forever" is not going to work.

   IPv6 crossed the 5% line just recently.  That is, about 5% of the
Internet now supports IPv6 interconnection.  HE.net (Hurricane Electric)  
and many others have been running IPv6 backbones for the past few years.  
ComCrap is now offering IPv6 to their customers (www.comcast6.net).  And
off the shelf consumer products as well as MicroSloth, Linux, BSD, Apple
have all had IPv6 compatability in them for some time.

   The slowness of deploying IPv6 has been a "need" issue.  People have to
have a need before they are willing to make a change.  Not just end users,
but the ISP's and NSP's as well have to feel the 'need'.  Predictions are
we will run out of IPv4 in about 2 years (at the current growth curve).  
When we hit that wall the 'need' will be high enough and the change will
wash over us like a tsunami!!!

   Two tidbits:

   1) China recently boofed the pooch and fat-fingered some BGP route
announcements and were sinking some 18,000 network routes into China that
didn't belong to them.  One of these was DELL.COM's address space.  That
outage took close to 3 days to clean up!  China did a similar blunder a
few months ago.  No... limited V4 is NOT a national security issue, but
not filtering one's BGP4 route announcements is!

   2) If every IPv6 address were an M&M, they would fill Lake Erie SEVEN
times over and still have a lot left over.  IPv4 barely half fills Lake
St.Clair.  IPv4 is only 32 bits long while IPv6 is 128 bits.  This is a
HUGE increase in size alone.


   As far as NAT goes, IPv6 was *NOT* designed to support NAT as there was
no need.  You either run a clean box or you don't in V6.  Hiding behind
NAT with some false sense of security has proven bad bad bad.  When ISP's
can hand me a /48 without blinking - I have far enough IP addresses to
assign to every single belonging in my house let alone every PC, printer,
phone, and toaster!!  No, there is NO need for that cluster-F known as NAT
to survive beyond IPv4, thank you very much :-/


      --- Jay Nugent

Train how you will Operate, and you will Operate how you were Trained.
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)649-0850/Cell       |
|   Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]                            |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.org] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  4:01pm  up 28 days, 13:32,  4 users,  load average: 0.09, 0.15, 0.26



From raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com  Tue Apr 20 18:38:51 2010
From: raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com (Raymond S McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:38:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] test
In-Reply-To: <20100420075925.301502be@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <4BCCE2EF.2040002@gmail.com>
	<20100420075925.301502be@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <4BCE2CFB.5030007@gmail.com>

Peter Bart wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:10:39 -0400
> Raymond S McLaughlin <raymond.s.mclaughlin at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> test
>>
>     Whew, I was worried I'd been excommunicated

Nope, it was just the old mail server needing a slap on the back. As far
as I can tell, it was due to ClamAV disabling all old installations.
<http://www.clamav.net/lang/en/>

This would be a good time to warn all of you using Windows systems for
your email. The MDLUG mail server has been configured to pass all
messages through ClamAV basically as a courtesy to the Windows using
members. Linux systems are largely immune to viruses. Since there is no
easy source for the new version of ClamAV for the server's OS (SUSE
LINUX 10.0) this is getting to be more trouble than it's worth. I
back-dated the install to db version 0.86, have taken steps to avoid
further updating/disabling.

One more reason to use a Linux mail client.

Raymond McLaughlin
serveradmin at mdlug.org


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Wed Apr 21 06:12:08 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:12:08 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
Message-ID: <1271844728.16972.15.camel@linux-pqce.site>

On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 16:16 -0400, Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, I've just finished reading Dan Bernstein's comments on what he
> calls the IPv6 mess. I think his points are valid. 

No, he's wrong; speaking as an admin that has deployed IPv6.  There is
no mess.  It isn't as 'tidy' as a network that uses only one protocol -
but (a) the Internet has been multi-protocol before and (b) the solution
is to relegate IPv4 to second-class status.

> However, someone out there (IETF, IANA, ICANN, I don't know) obviously
> controls those Class E "reserved for future use" addresses. My idea is
> that while it was smart to reserve them, it's not smart to never use
> them. If now is not the time to use them, when will be? Is this an old
> idea, or not workable ? 

Personally, I just don't care, and don't understand why anyone would
care, about resuscitating IPv4.  It is a 20th century protocol in a 21st
century world;  IPv4 is at this point a mountain of hacks,  from
variable subnetting to bolted on multicast to NAT [ugh!].  And still no
real solution for mobile devices.  Let old horses die.

> So I say, whoever controls those addresses should say, OK, we'll give
> you one, or two, or ten, but, by law (pass the law if needed), you
> must use them to route back and forth between IPv4 and IPv6. Give
> financial incentives if necessary. 

No.  There are already at least two techniques for IPv4/IPv6
interoperability;  for tunneling IPv6 over IPv4 and vice versa.  Hey,
tunneling as a concept is built right into IPv6!

> Only give them to the highest level providers. They then can turn
> around and charge a small premium (perhaps) for access to IPv6 in this
> fashion. People can still route directly from IPv6 to IPv6 on their
> own, but Bernstein has pointed out why this will never happen: there
> is no existing IPv6 infrastructure. 

False, False. False.  Check out Hurricane electric.  Get yourself on
IPv6 so you can see - yep, the Internet is there.  An no large IPv6
networks?  Comcast, Verizon, the DoD, several of the large European
ISPs, and a sizable chunk of Asia.

> Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to
> IPv4.

And thank goodness.  IPv4 is a withered old crone,  once you start using
IPv6 any fondness you feel for IPv4 will quickly reveal itself as
nothing but nostalgia.

> My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not
> saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as
> makes sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all
> are there? 

There is no point.

> However, I am not a networking professional. Just a curious bystander.
> But, if the U.S. Congress has stated that IPv4 exhaustion is a
> national security issue, and China *is* building an IPv6
> infrastructure, maybe "natting forever" is not going to work. 

NAT is stupid.  All it does it cause interoperability problems and choke
performance.  Just use IPv6.   And the USA *is* building IPv6
infrastructure.  So no cause for alarm.



From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Wed Apr 21 06:28:41 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 06:28:41 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
Message-ID: <1271845721.16972.31.camel@linux-pqce.site>

On Tue, 2010-04-20 at 17:12 -0400, Jay Nugent wrote:
>  Exactly, IPv6 is NOT an extension - was never meant to be.  V6 does a
> lot more than just provide addresses.  IPv6 is not just about more
> addresses, V6 has automatic neighbor discovery, some automatic
> configuration facilities, and various security features all built into it.

Not to mention: better performance.  Simple headers, no fragmentation,
no per-hop checksum, much larger MTUs, and ***much*** smaller routing
tables provide an enormous load reduction for routers.  [The IPv4
routing table is horribly bloated by things like class E subnets].
Comparing the amount of work a router has do to process an IPv4 packet
vs. an IPv6 packet is rather astounding;  and given the power of modern
routers [thanks in part to IPv4's bad design] the thought of them
shoveling mostly IPv6 packets is rather exciting.

> But it's agreed that the work would better be spent
> to migrate to IPv6 instead, rather than re-number then a few years later
> have to migrate to V6 anyway.  Might as well just do it once.

+1
 
>   2) If every IPv6 address were an M&M, they would fill Lake Erie SEVEN
> times over and still have a lot left over.  IPv4 barely half fills Lake
> St.Clair.  IPv4 is only 32 bits long while IPv6 is 128 bits.  This is a
> HUGE increase in size alone.

Maximum address utilization is estimated at about 80% (called the HD
ratio).  So given IPv4 in a perfect world [hah!] that is about 50
million hosts;  for IPv6 using the same ratio gives you 5.07*10^30
hosts.  Or roughly 1,000 hosts for every gram of mass in planet Earth
[or 20,108,758,371,078 addresses per pound-of-planet].  That's a *big*
&@^*&$ network.   Or as it was explained to me: a network
79,228,162,514,264,337,593,543,950,336 *TIMES* the size of the current
Internet.   

So lets just do that - and forget about all this subnetting madness.
Let's just build an efficient, scalable, and *simpler* Internet.  Some
people/organizations won't move to IPv6 - that is what the ash bin is
for.

> As far as NAT goes, IPv6 was *NOT* designed to support NAT as there was
> no need.  

Thank goodness!

> You either run a clean box or you don't in V6.  Hiding behind
> NAT with some false sense of security has proven bad bad bad.  When ISP's
> can hand me a /48 without blinking - I have far enough IP addresses to
> assign to every single belonging in my house let alone every PC, printer,
> phone, and toaster!!  

Every mite living in your carpet can have its own address!



From tony at bemushosting.com  Wed Apr 21 10:48:11 2010
From: tony at bemushosting.com (tony at bemushosting.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:48:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
In-Reply-To: <BBEE43C2388245A79A757FC9546DD6A6@racathlon>
References: <20100418.112217.25705.0@webmail16.vgs.untd.com>
	<BBEE43C2388245A79A757FC9546DD6A6@racathlon>
Message-ID: <1770432462.69634.1271861291920.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxusltgw05.schlund.de>

I think that would be a good time for me.
?
I will also volenteer to bring my Linux MCE machine for video playback.
?
Tony Bemus
?

On April 21, 2010 at 12:47 PM Robert Clyne <clyne at lodden.com> wrote:

> Could we have a planning meeting next Wednesday, April 28th, to try to
> finalize plans for the Penguicon hospitality room? That would leave 1 day
> for completion of any tasks before Penguicon.
>
> There are still a number of critical items on Gibson's list, see URL below,
> that are not covered e.g. crock pot, and several more not-quite-so-critical
> items to be either covered or dropped.
>
> Among other things, I think we have to make a decision about food, other
> than the chili, and soft drinks. As I recall, last year, a couple of guys
> went shopping for food and beverages, but I have heard of no similar plans
> for this year.
>
> Bob
>
> Robert Clyne
> clyne at mich.com
> 810-387-3101
> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
> http://www.semco.org
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:22 AM
> > To: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
> > richard55 at sbcglobal.net; clyne at mich.com; sanzicar at yahoo.com;
> > warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org
> > Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
> >
> >
> >
> > I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.
> >
> > http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
> > Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
> > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb2405258102e7684st03vuc
>


From danno at umich.edu  Thu Apr 22 13:45:32 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 13:45:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
Message-ID: <20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 05:12:20PM -0400, Jay Nugent wrote:
> > Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to
> > IPv4. My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not
> > saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as makes
> > sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all are there?
> 
>    Exactly, IPv6 is NOT an extension - was never meant to be.  V6 does a
> lot more than just provide addresses.  

> IPv6 is not just about more addresses, 

Nah, it's pretty much just about more addresses.  All the other stuff is
gravy.

> V6 has automatic neighbor discovery, some automatic
> configuration facilities, and various security features all built into it.

The neighbor discovery and autoconfiguration features are 95% solved
in ipv6, and about 95% solved in the standard ipv4 world (although
admittedly not as part of ipv4 per se).  Different 5% missing in
each - address autoconfiguration missing in ipv4, all the stuff beyond
address configuration that dhcp gives you missing in ipv6.  DHCPv6 is
fine but not all operating systems support it yet.

the security features that are "mandatory" in the specs (eg, IPSec) are often 
(usually?) unimplemented in practice.


So yes, v6 is an improvement, but hardly worth a complete upgrade on
these bases (basises?)

v6 has problems still, too:  Multihoming is still an unsolved problem
(at least, there is not a commonly agreed-upon solution).  

Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.

Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
(put in a good A record, too).

the browser will think the site is v6-connected, and will prefer that.

It'll time out on each and every http hit.  At least, it did with
safari 3 and firefox 3, on xp and macos 10.5.  I haven't tried with
safari 4 or firefox 3.5, or chrome.  I can't remember what IE did.  
I think but i'm not sure firefox on linux acted the same.

Camino worked "better" - no v6 support at all :)

>    As far as NAT goes, IPv6 was *NOT* designed to support NAT as there was
> no need.  You either run a clean box or you don't in V6.  

NAT != firewall; you can still have a little firewall box in front of your
system without it doing NAT.

I certainly agree that NAT needs to go away.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From danno at umich.edu  Thu Apr 22 14:00:06 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:00:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <1271845721.16972.31.camel@linux-pqce.site>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<1271845721.16972.31.camel@linux-pqce.site>
Message-ID: <20100422180006.GB86536@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 06:28:41AM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> Not to mention: better performance.  Simple headers, no fragmentation,
> no per-hop checksum, much larger MTUs, 
 
In practice, MTUs are a layer-2 issue, not a layer-3 issue.   

yes, ipv6 specifies a larger minimum MTU (1280 vs 500-something),

And yes, ipv4 is limited to 64k MTU while ipv6 doesn't really have
a limit (right?).

but in practice nearly everyone uses standard ethernet's 1500, or
1492 if they're stuck behind PPPOE.  In the data center, or in HPC
transfers over WANs, 9000 bytes is common.

Bigger MTUs are great, don't get me wrong, but ipv4 can handle an MTU
7x as big as the current standard "jumbo frame" of 9000 bytes.

> and ***much*** smaller routing
> tables provide an enormous load reduction for routers.  [The IPv4

those small routing tables are why multihoming is broken.  

Don't get me wrong, it's possible to design around the lack of
multihoming at higher layers, but it's not simple and that work has
not yet been done.   And there's something to be said to moving the
complexity out of the network and into the edge; it's more scalable
that way, for sure.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Thu Apr 22 15:28:35 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:28:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 13:45 -0400, Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 05:12:20PM -0400, Jay Nugent wrote:
> > > Bernstein points out that IPv6 was not designed to be an extension to
> > > IPv4. My idea provides that extension, if my idea makes sense. I'm not
> > > saying give out all of the class E addresses, but however many as makes
> > > sense. Maybe just a total of what, 512? 1024? How many in all are there?
> >    Exactly, IPv6 is NOT an extension - was never meant to be.  V6 does a
> > lot more than just provide addresses.  
> > IPv6 is not just about more addresses, 
> Nah, it's pretty much just about more addresses.  All the other stuff is
> gravy.

Nah, working multicast and mobile IP support are a big deal.

And I hardly call the radical reduction of CPU resources to perform
routing to be 'gravy' for backbone routers.  Think about it: IPv4
requires a CRC check at each hop,  do that on every packet in a ^&*^&*@
YouTube video stream for every &^&*# YouTube user at every hop and that
adds up to a lot of processing, ASIC or no ASIC.  Just dispensing with
that is a big deal.

> > V6 has automatic neighbor discovery, some automatic
> > configuration facilities, and various security features all built into it.
> The neighbor discovery and autoconfiguration features are 95% solved
> in ipv6, and about 95% solved in the standard ipv4 world (although
> admittedly not as part of ipv4 per se).  Different 5% missing in
> each - address autoconfiguration missing in ipv4, all the stuff beyond
> address configuration that dhcp gives you missing in ipv6.  DHCPv6 is
> fine but not all operating systems support it yet.

The issue of autoconfig of name resolution in IPv6 is a pretty stunning
oversight.

> the security features that are "mandatory" in the specs (eg, IPSec) are often 
> (usually?) unimplemented in practice.

True.  Don't get me started on IPSec. What a cluster *@&#*@.

> Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
> does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
> site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.
> Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
> server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
> (put in a good A record, too).

Eh.  Seriously, that is your complaint?  Fix your DNS.  I don't expect a
client application to compensate for incorrect information.

> the browser will think the site is v6-connected, and will prefer that.
> It'll time out on each and every http hit.  At least, it did with
> safari 3 and firefox 3, on xp and macos 10.5.  I haven't tried with
> safari 4 or firefox 3.5, or chrome.  I can't remember what IE did.  
> I think but i'm not sure firefox on linux acted the same.
> Camino worked "better" - no v6 support at all :)
> >    As far as NAT goes, IPv6 was *NOT* designed to support NAT as there was
> > no need.  You either run a clean box or you don't in V6.  
> NAT != firewall; you can still have a little firewall box in front of your
> system without it doing NAT.
> I certainly agree that NAT needs to go away.




From danno at umich.edu  Thu Apr 22 16:03:47 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:03:47 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
Message-ID: <20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 03:28:35PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> Nah, working multicast and mobile IP support are a big deal.

IPv4 SSM works more or less as well as IPv6 multicast does.

Mobile IP support, yeah, that's cool.

> And I hardly call the radical reduction of CPU resources to perform
> routing to be 'gravy' for backbone routers.  Think about it: IPv4
> requires a CRC check at each hop,  do that on every packet in a ^&*^&*@
> YouTube video stream for every &^&*# YouTube user at every hop and that
> adds up to a lot of processing, ASIC or no ASIC.  Just dispensing with
> that is a big deal.

somehow, all the packets get moved.  It's a lot less effort to do this in
the network than it is to change absolutely everything 


> > Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
> > does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
> > site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.
> > Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
> > server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
> > (put in a good A record, too).
> 
> Eh.  Seriously, that is your complaint?  Fix your DNS.  I don't expect a
> client application to compensate for incorrect information.

My complaint isn't what happens when DNS is broken.  My problem is 
what happens when:

  My system has a v6 and v4 address
  The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
  I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server

This happens pretty frequently in my experience.  

Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 22 16:26:47 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:26:47 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 03:28:35PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> Nah, working multicast and mobile IP support are a big deal.
> 
> IPv4 SSM works more or less as well as IPv6 multicast does.
> 
> Mobile IP support, yeah, that's cool.
> 
>> And I hardly call the radical reduction of CPU resources to perform
>> routing to be 'gravy' for backbone routers.  Think about it: IPv4
>> requires a CRC check at each hop,  do that on every packet in a ^&*^&*@
>> YouTube video stream for every &^&*# YouTube user at every hop and that
>> adds up to a lot of processing, ASIC or no ASIC.  Just dispensing with
>> that is a big deal.
> 
> somehow, all the packets get moved.  It's a lot less effort to do this in
> the network than it is to change absolutely everything 

Only for the first packet delivered by IPv6 via that node
(topologically) within your network.
After this one-time cost is paid, the benefits of lower costs
accrue both immediately, and forever.


> 
> 
>>> Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
>>> does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
>>> site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.
>>> Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
>>> server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
>>> (put in a good A record, too).
>> Eh.  Seriously, that is your complaint?  Fix your DNS.  I don't expect a
>> client application to compensate for incorrect information.
> 
> My complaint isn't what happens when DNS is broken.  My problem is 
> what happens when:
> 
>   My system has a v6 and v4 address
>   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
>   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
> 
> This happens pretty frequently in my experience.

Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?

> 
> Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.

More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
administration somewhere.

> 


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Thu Apr 22 16:55:34 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:55:34 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1271969734.3940.23.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 16:26 -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dan Pritts wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 03:28:35PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> >> Nah, working multicast and mobile IP support are a big deal.
> > IPv4 SSM works more or less as well as IPv6 multicast does.
> > Mobile IP support, yeah, that's cool.
> >> And I hardly call the radical reduction of CPU resources to perform
> >> routing to be 'gravy' for backbone routers.  Think about it: IPv4
> >> requires a CRC check at each hop,  do that on every packet in a ^&*^&*@
> >> YouTube video stream for every &^&*# YouTube user at every hop and that
> >> adds up to a lot of processing, ASIC or no ASIC.  Just dispensing with
> >> that is a big deal.
> > somehow, all the packets get moved. 

???  Slower than they could have otherwise.

>  It's a lot less effort to do this in
> > the network than it is to change absolutely everything 

So, just use IPv4 forever?  And there will be protocol overlap for at
least a decade.  Rebuilding all those apps to support filenames longer
than 8 characters was hard too.   And moving from green screens to GUIs.
And transitioning local networks from NetBIOS and IPX to IP.  Somehow we
managed.

> Only for the first packet delivered by IPv6 via that node
> (topologically) within your network.
> After this one-time cost is paid, the benefits of lower costs
> accrue both immediately, and forever.
> >>> Probably the biggest problem is that application software often
> >>> does not handle things gracefully when a supposedly dual-connected
> >>> site is v4-reachable but not v6-reachable.
> >>> Try an experiment; put a bad AAAA record in your DNS for a test web
> >>> server, try to connect using a browser on a v6-configured host.
> >>> (put in a good A record, too).
> >> Eh.  Seriously, that is your complaint?  Fix your DNS.  I don't expect a
> >> client application to compensate for incorrect information.
> > My complaint isn't what happens when DNS is broken.  My problem is 
> > what happens when:
> >   My system has a v6 and v4 address

If there was no IPv6 connectivity your client should not have acquired a
routeable IPv6 address. 



From gib at juno.com  Thu Apr 22 20:33:25 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 00:33:25 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100422.203325.22104.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>


Yes, I can meet on Wednesday April 28th.  Where?  Do we want to meet at the Panera Bread on Ford Road in Dearborn Heights again? Perhaps 6:00PM?

Panera Bread  
26580 Ford Rd, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127 
(313) 724-1861

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
To: <gib at juno.com>, <officers at mdlug.org>, <clyne at lodden.com>, <board at mug.org>, <sanzicar at yahoo.com>, <warnermach at gmail.com>, <mdlug at mdlug.org>, "Richard Jackson \(E-mail\)" <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>, "Mike Bader \(E-mail\)" <mdbader at wowway.com>, "Franz Breidenich \(E-mail\)" <franzb at ameritech.net>, "Ronald Green \(E-mail\)" <argie4444 at yahoo.com>, "John Lodden \(E-mail\)" <jrl at lodden.com>, "Mike Rudas \(E-mail\)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:47:49 -0400

Could we have a planning meeting next Wednesday, April 28th, to try to
finalize plans for the Penguicon hospitality room? That would leave 1 day
for completion of any tasks before Penguicon.

There are still a number of critical items on Gibson's list, see URL below,
that are not covered e.g. crock pot, and several more not-quite-so-critical
items to be either covered or dropped.

Among other things, I think we have to make a decision about food, other
than the chili, and soft drinks. As I recall, last year, a couple of guys
went shopping for food and beverages, but I have heard of no similar plans
for this year.

Bob

Robert Clyne
clyne at mich.com
810-387-3101
SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
http://www.semco.org



> -----Original Message-----
> From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:22 AM
> To: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
> richard55 at sbcglobal.net; clyne at mich.com; sanzicar at yahoo.com;
> warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org
> Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>
>
>
> I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.
>
> http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
> Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb2405258102e7684st03vuc




From danno at umich.edu  Fri Apr 23 17:07:06 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:07:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:26:47PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> >   My system has a v6 and v4 address
> >   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
> >   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
> > 
> > This happens pretty frequently in my experience.
> 
> Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?

My dns server does not have problems.  the ipv6 internet has problems.


> 
> > 
> > Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.
> 
> More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
> administration somewhere.

I'm curious how much experience you have using v6 on a daily basis.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From danno at umich.edu  Fri Apr 23 17:16:16 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:16:16 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <1271969734.3940.23.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<1271969734.3940.23.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
Message-ID: <20100423211616.GB67735@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:55:34PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> So, just use IPv4 forever?  And there will be protocol overlap for at

I said something along the lines of "it's all about the address
space.  All the rest is gravy."

So, no, don't use ipv4 forever.  but let's not get ourselves worked
up about how this is the greatest thing we'll ever do; it's a big pain
in the ass, but a necessary one.

I think it's gonna be ugly for a few years, though, when the address
space runs out.   

> If there was no IPv6 connectivity your client should not have acquired a
> routeable IPv6 address. 

should not != did not

this happened to some of my users somehow.  I think it was when
people moved from our wired net (has v6) to our wireless net
(braindead, v4 only).  Might have just been a problem with XP.

I've also read that certain apple airport base station/routers 
had a bug wherein they advertised v6 connectivity when there was none.

just a bug in a stupid router, yes.  Exacerbated by bad application
software behavior.


regardless of the above, it happens much more frequently that the
ipv6 internet is fragmented (even though ipv4 connectivity is still
available to the site in question).  Borked routing somewhere,
usually.

it's a vicious cycle; nobody uses v6, so the providers don't notice
when it's broken.  So, nobody uses it, because it's broken.


danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 17:57:04 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:57:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:26:47PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>>   My system has a v6 and v4 address
>>>   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
>>>   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
>>>
>>> This happens pretty frequently in my experience.
>> Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?
> 
> My dns server does not have problems.  the ipv6 internet has problems.
> 
> 
>>> Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.
>> More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
>> administration somewhere.
> 
> I'm curious how much experience you have using v6 on a daily basis.
> 

I didn't say that YOu are administrating your DNS box wrong,
I'm saying that somewhere in the DNS resolution chain,
someone is doing incompetent or improper administration.

And it really doesn't matter if it's "easy" or "difficult",
merely that it's correct or incorrect.


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 18:05:21 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:05:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100423211616.GB67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>	<1271969734.3940.23.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100423211616.GB67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD219A1.5090504@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:55:34PM -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> So, just use IPv4 forever?  And there will be protocol overlap for at
> 
> I said something along the lines of "it's all about the address
> space.  All the rest is gravy."
> 
> So, no, don't use ipv4 forever.  but let's not get ourselves worked
> up about how this is the greatest thing we'll ever do; it's a big pain
> in the ass, but a necessary one.
> 
> I think it's gonna be ugly for a few years, though, when the address
> space runs out.   
> 

The sooner the migration, the better.

I think the big stumbling block right now will be the massive
amount of software which will need to be, at the very least,
recompiled (assuming that the authors used symbolic names
for IP addresses defined in the .h files rather than declaring
addresses as "long int"

>> If there was no IPv6 connectivity your client should not have acquired a
>> routeable IPv6 address. 
> 
> should not != did not
> 
> this happened to some of my users somehow.  I think it was when
> people moved from our wired net (has v6) to our wireless net
> (braindead, v4 only).  Might have just been a problem with XP.
> 
> I've also read that certain apple airport base station/routers 
> had a bug wherein they advertised v6 connectivity when there was none.
> 
> just a bug in a stupid router, yes.  Exacerbated by bad application
> software behavior.
> 
> 
> regardless of the above, it happens much more frequently that the
> ipv6 internet is fragmented (even though ipv4 connectivity is still
> available to the site in question).  Borked routing somewhere,
> usually.
> 
> it's a vicious cycle; nobody uses v6, so the providers don't notice
> when it's broken.  So, nobody uses it, because it's broken.

When the ISPs run out of address space, they'll not only notice,
THEY will force the issue on their customers, whether the
customers want it or not.  And it will be hastily done, because
that's how American management tends to operate (do everything
as late as possible), because that's what they teach them in
the management schools (because, unlike business schools which
teach "bring in as much revenue as possible" which encourages
development of new services and capabilities, management schools
teach "keep overhead costs as low as possible" which discourages
pro-active development of future revenue expansion.)

:-/

To me, the big question will be -- which ISP will heavily
advertise that they offer IPv6 -- to the point that then
non-technical community becomes aware that there is even
an issue.


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 23 18:55:13 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:55:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Thank You for Standing Up for Net Neutrality]
Message-ID: <4BD22551.706@gmail.com>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Thank You for Standing Up for Net Neutrality
Date: 	Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:43:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: 	Timothy Karr <list at freepress.net>
Reply-To: 	Timothy Karr <list at freepress.net>
Organization: 	Free Press: media reform through education, organizing 
and advocacy
To: 	akulkis00 at gmail.com


> 
> 
> 
> free press: media is the issue <http://www.freepress.net/>
>  
> 
> Dear Aaron,
> 
> Thank you for taking action to protect the open Internet once and for 
> all. This is a critical time for Net Neutrality. Can you forward the 
> email below to share this action with your friends?
> 
>  
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The deadline is fast approaching to take action on Net Neutrality, the 
> principle that safeguards our freedom to do what we want and connect to 
> whomever we choose on the Internet.
> 
> Can you sign this letter to the FCC to protect the open Internet once 
> and for all? http://free.convio.net/site/Advocacy?pagename=homepage&id=437
> 
> Thanks!

Here is the text of what I sent:

The FCC must reclassify broadband as a "telecommunications service" so that it can keep the Internet open and free of corporate gatekeepers. 

Without vital Net Neutrality protections and the ability to enforce them, the Internet will cease to be a public platform for free speech, equal opportunity, economic growth and innovation. Instead, companies like AT&T, Verizon and Comcast, which have a commercial incentive to limit the free-flowing Web, will decide whose voices are heard.

We already have (for several decades now at the very least) the same sort of neutrality regarding telephone systems.  Telcos are neither allowed to give preferential call connection to some people you call, vs other people, based solely on whether the recipient of your call has paid ransom money to the telephone carrier.  Neither are telephone companies allowed to listen in on your calls, and determine if your conversation is "appropriate" or favorable to the telephone company's interests or not -- and then improve or degrade your call connection on that basis. 

They are legally limited to merely moving sound (currently digitized, and moved over the SAME connections and hardware as the internet), and providing whatever service level which the caller (not the recipient) pays for.

ISPs should either operate under the same common carrier rules which telephone companies operate under  -- which provide them immunity from prosecution for conversations over their voice networks which involve criminal acts or consiparacies to commit criminal acts, in exchange for not being responsible, or even allowed to monitor traffic on their networks unless ordered by a court to do so).  Likewise, if a criminal takes a taxi a bus to preparation for, or in the commission of a crime, or fleeing the police after the fact, such carriers are not held responsible for unknowingly transporting such an individual, because, by law, they must treat all customers according only to their willingness to pay the fares, and nothing more.


As long as ISPs continue to inspect the content of data network traffic (for the purpose of elevating or lowering connection priority solely on the basis of the content, or where the other end of the network connection ends -- such as google.com or whatever), then they should be held legally responsible for taking part in any illegal activity conducted over their networks. -- after all, they ARE willingly inspecting both the content of the traffic, and passing judgement based upon where the content comes from -- if they choose to lower the precedence of legal traffic, while also delivering traffic which is criminal in nature, then there is no logical alternative other than to have he officers of that ISP charged as accessories to such crimes.
 
You still have the power to protect the public interest. Please restore to the internet the same freedoms we have enjoyed with the telephone system.

A business which receives a large number of telephone calls (such as a carry-out restaurant, or a telephone/mail-order house) does not, and never has, been subjected to pricing structures that if they want their customer's telephone calls to be given the same priority as other calls, that they must pay the telephone company an extra sort of ransom on top of the money already being charged to the caller.  Businesses by as many telephone lines as they need, and purchase as much bulk data bandwidth as they want.  To degrade customers' data connections because the company has not paid an additional ransom ON TOP of the bandwidth purchased from the ISP is both prejudicial and wrong.  The ISP has already been paid for their bandwidth and the associated hardware and infrastructure to deliver it.

As a computer systems engineer for over 20 years, I see the recently stated desires of ISPs to discourage the use of "unfavored" sites -- by offering slow deliver, or limiting the number of data connections through their network  -- for example, if hulu.com or google.com does not pay the ISP a ransom -- in favor of their "partner" sites which would not be 
similarly limited, is both prejudicial, and wrong.

Similarly, the recent practice ISPs to interfere with internet traffic using data transport protocols such as bittorrent -- which is a very efficient way of delivering large files and helps lower aggregate network traffic for the same amount of data delivered as compared to protocols which are not disfavored (such as FTP)) is both prejudicial and wrong.

As a common carrier, a telephone company is prohibited from operating a content business -- precisely to prevent this sort of conflict of interest.  The same rules should be made to apply to ISP's, with the threat of charges to being accessories to crime for ANY criminal acts committed by transmitting data through their network (child porn downloads, "phishing" scams, virus propagation via emails and web-sites, etc.)  After all, if the ISP is inspecting and making judgements about traffic based upon such inspections, then they should likewise be held responsible in the criminal courts for delivering ANY such traffic which aids in the commission of a crime, or which is criminal in and of itself.  Anything less would be wrong.

With such a persuasive stick of both corporate and personal criminal charges for the legal liability for delivering criminal traffice which naturally stems from inspecting data content, and prioritizing on that basis, I am quite sure that ISPs will EAGERLY accept the proposal that they adopt the same content-neutral and source-neutral rules which already govern our telephone systems.




From gib at juno.com  Sat Apr 24 21:12:56 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 01:12:56 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100424.211256.17865.0@webmail04.vgs.untd.com>


Super.  Thank you.

Please note: message attached

From: c sanzi <sanzicar at yahoo.com>
To: officers at mdlug.org, clyne at lodden.com, board at mug.org,  richard55 at sbcglobal.net, clyne at mich.com, warnermach at gmail.com,  mdlug at mdlug.org, "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
Subject: Re: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:31:37 -0700 (PDT)


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From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 25 21:27:40 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:27:40 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Tired of indistinguishable Konsoles in KDE task bar?
Message-ID: <4BD4EC0C.40200@gmail.com>


Put the following code snippet in your ~/.bashrc file.

Each window will include the tty device name
(/dev/pts/nn) munged to pts/nn.

Note, this has NOT been tested with gnome or other anything
other than Konsole

   ---------- code begins below ----------

# Begin KDE Konsole Window title code
TTY=`/usr/bin/tty`

		# /dev/pts is a windowed pseudo-terminal
		# /dev/ttynn is a virtual console
		# /dev/ttySnn is a serial line
case $TTY in
   /dev/pts/* )
		# magic kde konsole window title bar escape codes
	export PS1="\u@\h:\w> \[\e]30;\H:`tty|sed -e 's:/dev/::'`\a\] "
	;;

   default )
	export PS1="\u@\h:\w> "
esac

# End KDE Konsole Window title code


From petertheplumber at att.net  Mon Apr 26 10:07:32 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:07:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
Message-ID: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>

Good Morning,
    I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid? I'm thinking of
getting some adapters from Radio Shack; with the fuses in them; and
putting them on my car chargers. Fuses appropriate for the load of
course. The specific charger I'm talking about is the Asus brand car
charger <http://estore.asus.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=4446&catid=734>.
It has a transformer brick to step up voltage to 13 volts and lots of
references to supposed internal overcurrent/voltage protection. But
nothing official. What do the great minds at MDLUG think? I should
mention that almost every electric appliance in my house is plugged
into some sort of APC surge arrester/battery backup/voltage regulator.
My notebook power supplies have the small inline ones strapped right to
the brick. Any thoughts?

-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber
Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 11:25:06 2010
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:25:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
In-Reply-To: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <v2nb02c40e91004260825p714ef36dm6c5a8d988a36cc58@mail.gmail.com>

I can almost guarantee the Asus adapter has overcurrent protection.
It's almost impossible to find voltage regulator semiconductor devices
that don't have overcurrent/thermal protection.

The cigarette lighter/accessory socket circuit in any vehicle always has a fuse.

A fuse is only intended to protect the wiring from overload, not the device.

On 4/26/10, Peter Bart <petertheplumber at att.net> wrote:
> Good Morning,
>     I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
> point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
> lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
> dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
> fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid? I'm thinking of
> getting some adapters from Radio Shack; with the fuses in them; and
> putting them on my car chargers. Fuses appropriate for the load of
> course. The specific charger I'm talking about is the Asus brand car
> charger <http://estore.asus.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=4446&catid=734>.
> It has a transformer brick to step up voltage to 13 volts and lots of
> references to supposed internal overcurrent/voltage protection. But
> nothing official. What do the great minds at MDLUG think? I should
> mention that almost every electric appliance in my house is plugged
> into some sort of APC surge arrester/battery backup/voltage regulator.
> My notebook power supplies have the small inline ones strapped right to
> the brick. Any thoughts?
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Peter The Plumber
> Sent from a mobile Internet Tablet
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 11:43:21 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:43:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
In-Reply-To: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <4BD5B499.4090007@gmail.com>

Peter Bart wrote:
> Good Morning,
>     I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
> point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
> lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
> dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
> fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid? I'm thinking of
> getting some adapters from Radio Shack; with the fuses in them; and
> putting them on my car chargers. Fuses appropriate for the load of
> course. The specific charger I'm talking about is the Asus brand car
> charger <http://estore.asus.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=4446&catid=734>.
> It has a transformer brick to step up voltage to 13 volts and lots of
> references to supposed internal overcurrent/voltage protection. But
> nothing official. What do the great minds at MDLUG think? I should
> mention that almost every electric appliance in my house is plugged
> into some sort of APC surge arrester/battery backup/voltage regulator.
> My notebook power supplies have the small inline ones strapped right to
> the brick. Any thoughts?
> 

The cigarette lighter in your car most likely already
has a fuse, either 10 Amp or 15 Amp.


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Mon Apr 26 11:43:07 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:43:07 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
In-Reply-To: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <1272296587.9749.24.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 10:07 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> Good Morning,
>     I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
> point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
> lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
> dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
> fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid?

Yes.  Modern automobiles are loaded with solid-state electronics and
have solid-state voltage regulators to provide [regulate] that current.
Your automobiles voltage isn't nearly as dirty or variable as it used to
be.

I wouldn't worry about it (and I don't, in practice).  [I remember the
days of installing line noise filters and such things, but those days
are long gone].



From danno at umich.edu  Mon Apr 26 16:30:21 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:30:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>

the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.

Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 05:57:04PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dan Pritts wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:26:47PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> >>>   My system has a v6 and v4 address
> >>>   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
> >>>   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
> >>>
> >>> This happens pretty frequently in my experience.
> >> Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?
> > 
> > My dns server does not have problems.  the ipv6 internet has problems.
> > 
> > 
> >>> Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.
> >> More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
> >> administration somewhere.
> > 
> > I'm curious how much experience you have using v6 on a daily basis.
> > 
> 
> I didn't say that YOu are administrating your DNS box wrong,
> I'm saying that somewhere in the DNS resolution chain,
> someone is doing incompetent or improper administration.
> 
> And it really doesn't matter if it's "easy" or "difficult",
> merely that it's correct or incorrect.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 26 19:07:36 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:07:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
	<20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
> site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.
> 
> Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
> i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
> in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
> exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.
> 

And if IPv4 was screwed up in the middle, the same problems
would occur.  Otherwise, we could all just put random numbers
in, and networking would still work.

> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 05:57:04PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Dan Pritts wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 04:26:47PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>>>>   My system has a v6 and v4 address
>>>>>   The server has a AAAA record and an A record.  
>>>>>   I have v4 reachability but not v6 reachability to the server
>>>>>
>>>>> This happens pretty frequently in my experience.
>>>> Why does your DNS server frequently have incorrect records?
>>> My dns server does not have problems.  the ipv6 internet has problems.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Obviously this is a transitional problem - but it's a big one.
>>>> More than anything, it sounds like incompetent and/or improper
>>>> administration somewhere.
>>> I'm curious how much experience you have using v6 on a daily basis.
>>>
>> I didn't say that YOu are administrating your DNS box wrong,
>> I'm saying that somewhere in the DNS resolution chain,
>> someone is doing incompetent or improper administration.
>>
>> And it really doesn't matter if it's "easy" or "difficult",
>> merely that it's correct or incorrect.______
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From petertheplumber at att.net  Mon Apr 26 21:42:29 2010
From: petertheplumber at att.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:42:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] 12V Overcurrent/voltage Protection
In-Reply-To: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
References: <20100426100732.11553d8c@Nokia-N800-43-7>
Message-ID: <1272332549.5111.770.camel@plumber-notebook.site>

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 10:07 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> Good Morning,
>     I'm getting more and more stuff that has car chargers. The tipping
> point was my new netbook. I figured it had an inline fuse in the
> lighter plug. It does not, and neither do any of the other chargers I
> dug up at home.  I remember these car chargers having a small inline
> fuse, from days gone by. Am I being to paranoid? I'm thinking of
> getting some adapters from Radio Shack; with the fuses in them; and
> putting them on my car chargers. Fuses appropriate for the load of
> course. The specific charger I'm talking about is the Asus brand car
> charger <http://estore.asus.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=4446&catid=734>.
> It has a transformer brick to step up voltage to 13 volts and lots of
> references to supposed internal overcurrent/voltage protection. But
> nothing official. What do the great minds at MDLUG think? I should
> mention that almost every electric appliance in my house is plugged
> into some sort of APC surge arrester/battery backup/voltage regulator.
> My notebook power supplies have the small inline ones strapped right to
> the brick. Any thoughts?
> 

	Thanks to all for the input, I'll leave well enough alone!
-- 
Best Regards,

Peter The Plumber



From danno at umich.edu  Tue Apr 27 13:29:36 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:29:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>
	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
	<20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100427172936.GA44628@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 07:07:36PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dan Pritts wrote:
> > the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
> > site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.
> > 
> > Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
> > i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
> > in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
> > exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.
> > 
> 
> And if IPv4 was screwed up in the middle, the same problems
> would occur.  Otherwise, we could all just put random numbers
> in, and networking would still work.

"this is to be expected in this transitional phase." 

back in 1989, IPv4 got screwed up in the middle a lot more than it
does now.  We didn't have anything else then, but today, deploying
ipv6, we have a pretty reliable ipv4 internet.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 27 14:38:13 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:38:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <20100427172936.GA44628@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <2078622241.152696.1271794593105.JavaMail.root@md03.wow.synacor.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.44.1004201629220.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>	<20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>	<20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>	<4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>
	<20100427172936.GA44628@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <4BD72F15.3020108@gmail.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 07:07:36PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Dan Pritts wrote:
>>> the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
>>> site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.
>>>
>>> Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
>>> i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
>>> in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
>>> exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.
>>>
>> And if IPv4 was screwed up in the middle, the same problems
>> would occur.  Otherwise, we could all just put random numbers
>> in, and networking would still work.
> 
> "this is to be expected in this transitional phase." 
> 
> back in 1989, IPv4 got screwed up in the middle a lot more than it
> does now.  We didn't have anything else then, but today, deploying
> ipv6, we have a pretty reliable ipv4 internet.

So we should just stick with IPv4 for another 3 years
until we have a crisis situation?

The solution is not to say "oh, the IPv6 doesn't work, lets
just be content with IPv4"... the solution is to tell the
ISP to get their IPv6 situation straightened out, or you will
not only change vendors, but you will also see them in
court for breech of contract, and you'll also be forming
a legal class for a class action suit (which distributes
your legal costs among all participants -- and many trial
lawyers will take on such a case for free if the class
turns out to be big enough).

Once it's cheaper to fix their IPv6 configuration than
to pay for lawyers, they'll fix their IPv6.


From danno at umich.edu  Wed Apr 28 11:14:23 2010
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 11:14:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: the great IPv6 debate
In-Reply-To: <4BD72F15.3020108@gmail.com>
References: <20100422174532.GA86536@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<1271964515.3940.19.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<20100422200346.GA27514@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD0B107.9000102@gmail.com>
	<20100423210705.GA67735@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD217B0.1000206@gmail.com>
	<20100426203020.GA54671@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD61CB8.8030209@gmail.com>
	<20100427172936.GA44628@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<4BD72F15.3020108@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100428151423.GA88436@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 02:38:13PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dan Pritts wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 07:07:36PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> >> Dan Pritts wrote:
> >>> the problem is not borked DNS; it is not at the server or at the client
> >>> site.  The problem is some broken network, somewhere in the middle.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, someone somewhere screwed up; yes, they should fix it.  yes,
> >>> i should complain (and i do!).  all that said, this is to be expected
> >>> in this transitional phase.  Having application software that
> >>> exacerbates the problem just makes users want to turn off v6.
> >>>
> >> And if IPv4 was screwed up in the middle, the same problems
> >> would occur.  Otherwise, we could all just put random numbers
> >> in, and networking would still work.
> > 
> > "this is to be expected in this transitional phase." 
> > 
> > back in 1989, IPv4 got screwed up in the middle a lot more than it
> > does now.  We didn't have anything else then, but today, deploying
> > ipv6, we have a pretty reliable ipv4 internet.
> 
> So we should just stick with IPv4 for another 3 years
> until we have a crisis situation?


"having application software that exacerbates the problem just makes
users want to turn off v6"


danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 10:03:15 2010
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:03:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
Message-ID: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>

And so it begins...
"Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents, licenses HTC
(update: talking to other Android manufacturers as well)"
<http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/28/microsoft-says-android-infringes-on-its-patents-licenses-htc>

I'm kinda surprised it didn't happen earlier.  Software patents suck!

~~ Michael Rudas
  My home page: http://MRudas.2Ya.com
  http://www.Facebook.com/ScienceMikey


From rmdion at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 10:50:44 2010
From: rmdion at gmail.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:50:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>

 >>Microsoft has a decades-long record of investment in software 
platforms. As a result, we have built a significant patent portfolio in 
this field, and we have a responsibility to our customers, partners, and 
shareholders to ensure that competitors do not free ride on our 
innovations. <<

"Investment" You mean stealing.

On 04/29/2010 09:03 AM, Michael Rudas wrote:
> And so it begins...
> "Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents, licenses HTC
> (update: talking to other Android manufacturers as well)"
> <http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/28/microsoft-says-android-infringes-on-its-patents-licenses-htc>
>
> I'm kinda surprised it didn't happen earlier.  Software patents suck!
>


From jaketodd422 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 13:32:45 2010
From: jaketodd422 at gmail.com (Jacob Todd)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:32:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 09:50:44AM -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> "Investment"[?] You mean stealing.

What have MS stolen? Patents are theft, they're monopolies.
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From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Thu Apr 29 13:46:24 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:46:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:32 -0400, Jacob Todd wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 09:50:44AM -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> > "Investment"[?] You mean stealing.
> What have MS stolen? 

Nothing; if they hold the patent then they own it.  You can't steal from
yourself.

I don't understand why people in FOSS land get so worked up about these
[apparently randomly choosing one to have a fit about].  Especially the
Novell / Microsoft patent deal - what a @*&^*$ to-do about nothing.
Tech companies sign these kind of agreements every day;  it is how
business is done until the legislature changes it. 

Does Android violate any M$ patents?  Without a doubt, one doesn't even
have to look.  It certainly violates patents from dozens of other
organizations as well.  So these organizations all sign agreements with
each other to cover their hindquarters from the potential costs.  And M$
signs such agreements with IBM as undoubtedly M$ tech violates lots of
IBM patents [who holds more patents than anybody]

I personally wonder what is more annoying:  software patents or software
patent FUD as perpetrated by
call-themselves-FOSS-advocates-but-are-really-just-malcontents.

<quote
source="http://www.jprl.com/Blog/archive/development/mono/2009/Jan-19.html">
What I find even "funnier" is that Microsoft supposedly holds a number
of patents in a number of areas frequently used by open-source projects,
such as HTML, CSS, C++, XML, and others. So why don't we ever see any
suggestions to avoid these technologies because the Big Bad Microsoft
might sue?</quote>

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam at whitemice.org> LPIC-1, Novell CLA
<http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com>
OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba



From tesral at wowway.com  Thu Apr 29 14:13:29 2010
From: tesral at wowway.com (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:13:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4BD9CC49.5010508@wowway.com>

Jacob Todd wrote:
> What have MS stolen? Patents are theft, they're monopolies.
>   

QDOS for starters.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it -- and stop there -- lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again, and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one any more. -Mark Twain
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From rmdion at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 14:26:08 2010
From: rmdion at gmail.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:26:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
	<1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
Message-ID: <4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>

MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it or invented it. Which 
leaves everyone else to either pay up or spend millions to prove the 
patent invalid.

One only has to look as far back and the i4i suit to know MS has no 
respect for IP of others.

On 04/29/2010 12:46 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:32 -0400, Jacob Todd wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 09:50:44AM -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
>>> "Investment"[?] You mean stealing.
>> What have MS stolen?
>
> Nothing; if they hold the patent then they own it.  You can't steal from
> yourself.
>
> I don't understand why people in FOSS land get so worked up about these
> [apparently randomly choosing one to have a fit about].  Especially the
> Novell / Microsoft patent deal - what a @*&^*$ to-do about nothing.
> Tech companies sign these kind of agreements every day;  it is how
> business is done until the legislature changes it.
>
> Does Android violate any M$ patents?  Without a doubt, one doesn't even
> have to look.  It certainly violates patents from dozens of other
> organizations as well.  So these organizations all sign agreements with
> each other to cover their hindquarters from the potential costs.  And M$
> signs such agreements with IBM as undoubtedly M$ tech violates lots of
> IBM patents [who holds more patents than anybody]
>
> I personally wonder what is more annoying:  software patents or software
> patent FUD as perpetrated by
> call-themselves-FOSS-advocates-but-are-really-just-malcontents.
>
> <quote
> source="http://www.jprl.com/Blog/archive/development/mono/2009/Jan-19.html">
> What I find even "funnier" is that Microsoft supposedly holds a number
> of patents in a number of areas frequently used by open-source projects,
> such as HTML, CSS, C++, XML, and others. So why don't we ever see any
> suggestions to avoid these technologies because the Big Bad Microsoft
> might sue?</quote>
>


From awilliam at opengroupware.us  Thu Apr 29 14:57:21 2010
From: awilliam at opengroupware.us (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:57:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
	<1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site> <4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1272567441.7661.29.camel@linux-yu4c.site>

On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:26 -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it 

That is exactly what a patent means.  They own it.




From painbank at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 14:55:11 2010
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:55:11 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>
	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>
	<1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2pcafacd831004291155o7ce97f5buf46c148a052db4bf@mail.gmail.com>

Flame war!

On 4/29/10, Bob Dion <rmdion at gmail.com> wrote:
> MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it or invented it. Which
> leaves everyone else to either pay up or spend millions to prove the
> patent invalid.
>
> One only has to look as far back and the i4i suit to know MS has no
> respect for IP of others.
>
> On 04/29/2010 12:46 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:32 -0400, Jacob Todd wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 09:50:44AM -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
>>>> "Investment"[?] You mean stealing.
>>> What have MS stolen?
>>
>> Nothing; if they hold the patent then they own it.  You can't steal from
>> yourself.
>>
>> I don't understand why people in FOSS land get so worked up about these
>> [apparently randomly choosing one to have a fit about].  Especially the
>> Novell / Microsoft patent deal - what a @*&^*$ to-do about nothing.
>> Tech companies sign these kind of agreements every day;  it is how
>> business is done until the legislature changes it.
>>
>> Does Android violate any M$ patents?  Without a doubt, one doesn't even
>> have to look.  It certainly violates patents from dozens of other
>> organizations as well.  So these organizations all sign agreements with
>> each other to cover their hindquarters from the potential costs.  And M$
>> signs such agreements with IBM as undoubtedly M$ tech violates lots of
>> IBM patents [who holds more patents than anybody]
>>
>> I personally wonder what is more annoying:  software patents or software
>> patent FUD as perpetrated by
>> call-themselves-FOSS-advocates-but-are-really-just-malcontents.
>>
>> <quote
>> source="http://www.jprl.com/Blog/archive/development/mono/2009/Jan-19.html">
>> What I find even "funnier" is that Microsoft supposedly holds a number
>> of patents in a number of areas frequently used by open-source projects,
>> such as HTML, CSS, C++, XML, and others. So why don't we ever see any
>> suggestions to avoid these technologies because the Big Bad Microsoft
>> might sue?</quote>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Rich Elswick


From mat.enders at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 15:03:30 2010
From: mat.enders at gmail.com (mat.enders at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:03:30 +0000
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
Message-ID: <1329644716-1272567810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147800514-@bda326.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Not when they were granted the patent in error, which is I believe what Bob was saying.
------Original Message------
From: Adam Tauno Williams
Sender: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
ReplyTo: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
Sent: Apr 29, 2010 14:57

On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:26 -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it 

That is exactly what a patent means.  They own it.


_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


Sent on the Sprint? Now Network from my BlackBerry?

From jjn at nuge.com  Thu Apr 29 15:17:15 2010
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:17:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <1329644716-1272567810-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1147800514-@bda326.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.1004291516410.1019-100000@home.nuge.com>

Greetings,

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 mat.enders at gmail.com wrote:

> Not when they were granted the patent in error, which is I believe what Bob was saying.

   Or if the alleged patent is "Patent Pending".



> ------Original Message------
> From: Adam Tauno Williams
> Sender: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org
> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
> ReplyTo: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
> Sent: Apr 29, 2010 14:57
> 
> On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:26 -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
> > MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it 
> 
> That is exactly what a patent means.  They own it.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> Sent on the Sprint? Now Network from my BlackBerry?
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 

             
Train how you will Operate, and you will Operate how you were Trained.
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)649-0850/Cell       |
|   Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]                            |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.org] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  3:01pm  up 37 days, 12:38,  5 users,  load average: 0.01, 0.04, 0.01



From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 29 19:45:49 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:45:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] for those looking to copy backup/convert video material
Message-ID: <4BDA1A2D.5080304@gmail.com>


<http://www.xdimax.com/common/default.html>


From akulkis00 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 30 03:38:57 2010
From: akulkis00 at gmail.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 03:38:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft says Android infringes on its patents
In-Reply-To: <1272567441.7661.29.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
References: <w2kb67fb0381004290703ge07aef24n8592351cd09f6ac1@mail.gmail.com>	<4BD99CC4.9090500@gmail.com>	<20100429173245.GA9878@zoidberg.hsd1.mi.comcast.net>	<1272563184.7661.26.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
	<4BD9CF40.3060406@gmail.com>
	<1272567441.7661.29.camel@linux-yu4c.site>
Message-ID: <4BDA8911.1000200@gmail.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 13:26 -0500, Bob Dion wrote:
>> MS patents every thing, doesn't mean they own it 
> 
> That is exactly what a patent means.  They own it.
> 

And they've FREQUENTLY been caught filing patent on
the work of others.. in fact, even when the prior art
was well known within the industry.

The only thing that allows them to keep up this racket
is the fact that the patent examiners seem to be utterly
clueless about software in general (as in, what were
already established practices even DECADES ago), let
alone the state of the art.

But, it really won't mean anything in a couple of years.
there's a good 5-2 majority in the Supreme Court to
get rid of these odious things -- business methods have
already been struck down solidly, and the questioning
from the justices on that case indicates that they
fairly agree that business methods and computer
algorithms are indistinguishable.

The problem isn't so much Microsoft's wanting to patent
things .. it's that Gates, and the other upper management
are all paranoid, and behave as the business equivalent
of psychotic megalomaniacs (even arguing that what is
illegal for other companies should be OK for them, because
they're Microsoft, and the other companies are not).


From gib at juno.com  Thu Apr 29 08:16:52 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:16:52 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100429.081652.21775.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com>

Thank you.  It was good to see all of you.  
We were able to settle all of the outstanding issues (except room key assignments).
Every object that we need per our list now has someone signed up to bring it.  
We can still use more volunteers to watch the room.
Any additional money that anyone wants to contribute would be welcome. I'm currently $20 in the red for known expenses. I can cover this or some of you can donate for additional goods. 
Please provide a receipt if you want money. 
You can make this easy if you wish to just bring something instead of donating money.  But be aware that we have people signed up for specific items and you may duplicate.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Warner Mach <warnermach at gmail.com>
To: Richard Jackson <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: clyne at lodden.com, gib at juno.com, officers at mdlug.org, board at mug.org,  sanzicar at yahoo.com, mdlug at mdlug.org, mdbader at wowway.com, franzb at ameritech.net,  argie4444 at yahoo.com, jrl at lodden.com, open.computing at yahoo.com,  "Ed Zaremba (E-mail)" <edz at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 04:55:15 -0400

I will try to be there ... Warner

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Richard Jackson
<richardj55 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I will be there.
>
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
> To: <gib at juno.com>
> Cc: <officers at mdlug.org>; <board at mug.org>; <sanzicar at yahoo.com>;
> <warnermach at gmail.com>; <mdlug at mdlug.org>; <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>;
> <mdbader at wowway.com>; <franzb at ameritech.net>; <argie4444 at yahoo.com>;
> <jrl at lodden.com>; <open.computing at yahoo.com>; "Ed Zaremba (E-mail)"
> <edz at comcast.net>; "Mike Rudas (E-mail)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:13 PM
> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>
>
>> OK Let's meet on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 at 6:00PM at the Panera Bread
>> on
>> Ford Road in Dearborn Heights (same place as last time).
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> Robert Clyne
>> clyne at mich.com
>> 810-387-3101
>> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
>> http://www.semco.org
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 8:33 PM
>>> To: clyne at lodden.com
>>> Cc: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
>>> sanzicar at yahoo.com; warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org;
>>> richardj55 at sbcglobal.net; mdbader at wowway.com; franzb at ameritech.net;
>>> argie4444 at yahoo.com; jrl at lodden.com; open.computing at yahoo.com
>>> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I can meet on Wednesday April 28th.  Where?  Do we want
>>> to meet at the Panera Bread on Ford Road in Dearborn Heights
>>> again? Perhaps 6:00PM?
>>>
>>> Panera Bread
>>> 26580 Ford Rd, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127
>>> (313) 724-1861
>>>
>>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>>> From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
>>> To: <gib at juno.com>, <officers at mdlug.org>, <clyne at lodden.com>,
>>> <board at mug.org>, <sanzicar at yahoo.com>,
>>> <warnermach at gmail.com>, <mdlug at mdlug.org>, "Richard Jackson
>>> \(E-mail\)" <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>, "Mike Bader
>>> \(E-mail\)" <mdbader at wowway.com>, "Franz Breidenich
>>> \(E-mail\)" <franzb at ameritech.net>, "Ronald Green \(E-mail\)"
>>> <argie4444 at yahoo.com>, "John Lodden \(E-mail\)"
>>> <jrl at lodden.com>, "Mike Rudas \(E-mail\)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:47:49 -0400
>>>
>>> Could we have a planning meeting next Wednesday, April 28th, to try to
>>> finalize plans for the Penguicon hospitality room? That would
>>> leave 1 day
>>> for completion of any tasks before Penguicon.
>>>
>>> There are still a number of critical items on Gibson's list,
>>> see URL below,
>>> that are not covered e.g. crock pot, and several more
>>> not-quite-so-critical
>>> items to be either covered or dropped.
>>>
>>> Among other things, I think we have to make a decision about
>>> food, other
>>> than the chili, and soft drinks. As I recall, last year, a
>>> couple of guys
>>> went shopping for food and beverages, but I have heard of no
>>> similar plans
>>> for this year.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> Robert Clyne
>>> clyne at mich.com
>>> 810-387-3101
>>> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
>>> http://www.semco.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
>>> > Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:22 AM
>>> > To: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
>>> > richard55 at sbcglobal.net; clyne at mich.com; sanzicar at yahoo.com;
>>> > warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org
>>> > Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.
>>> >
>>> > http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>> > Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
>>> > Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
>>> > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb2405258102e7684st03vuc
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr 30 15:56:22 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:56:22 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Room Number is 211 - - -Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and
	SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100430.155622.12145.0@webmail09.vgs.untd.com>

Per the Penguicon room part list our room number is 211.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
To: warnermach at gmail.com
Cc: richardj55 at sbcglobal.net,  clyne at lodden.com,  officers at mdlug.org,  board at mug.org,  sanzicar at yahoo.com,  mdlug at mdlug.org,  mdbader at wowway.com,  franzb at ameritech.net,  argie4444 at yahoo.com,  jrl at lodden.com,  open.computing at yahoo.com,  edz at comcast.net
Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:16:52 GMT

Thank you.  It was good to see all of you.  
We were able to settle all of the outstanding issues (except room key assignments).
Every object that we need per our list now has someone signed up to bring it.  
We can still use more volunteers to watch the room.
Any additional money that anyone wants to contribute would be welcome. I'm currently $20 in the red for known expenses. I can cover this or some of you can donate for additional goods. 
Please provide a receipt if you want money. 
You can make this easy if you wish to just bring something instead of donating money.  But be aware that we have people signed up for specific items and you may duplicate.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Warner Mach <warnermach at gmail.com>
To: Richard Jackson <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: clyne at lodden.com, gib at juno.com, officers at mdlug.org, board at mug.org,  sanzicar at yahoo.com, mdlug at mdlug.org, mdbader at wowway.com, franzb at ameritech.net,  argie4444 at yahoo.com, jrl at lodden.com, open.computing at yahoo.com,  "Ed Zaremba (E-mail)" <edz at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 04:55:15 -0400

I will try to be there ... Warner

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Richard Jackson
<richardj55 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I will be there.
>
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
> To: <gib at juno.com>
> Cc: <officers at mdlug.org>; <board at mug.org>; <sanzicar at yahoo.com>;
> <warnermach at gmail.com>; <mdlug at mdlug.org>; <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>;
> <mdbader at wowway.com>; <franzb at ameritech.net>; <argie4444 at yahoo.com>;
> <jrl at lodden.com>; <open.computing at yahoo.com>; "Ed Zaremba (E-mail)"
> <edz at comcast.net>; "Mike Rudas (E-mail)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 10:13 PM
> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>
>
>> OK Let's meet on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 at 6:00PM at the Panera Bread
>> on
>> Ford Road in Dearborn Heights (same place as last time).
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> Robert Clyne
>> clyne at mich.com
>> 810-387-3101
>> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
>> http://www.semco.org
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2010 8:33 PM
>>> To: clyne at lodden.com
>>> Cc: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
>>> sanzicar at yahoo.com; warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org;
>>> richardj55 at sbcglobal.net; mdbader at wowway.com; franzb at ameritech.net;
>>> argie4444 at yahoo.com; jrl at lodden.com; open.computing at yahoo.com
>>> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I can meet on Wednesday April 28th.  Where?  Do we want
>>> to meet at the Panera Bread on Ford Road in Dearborn Heights
>>> again? Perhaps 6:00PM?
>>>
>>> Panera Bread
>>> 26580 Ford Rd, Dearborn Heights, MI 48127
>>> (313) 724-1861
>>>
>>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>>> From: "Robert Clyne" <clyne at lodden.com>
>>> To: <gib at juno.com>, <officers at mdlug.org>, <clyne at lodden.com>,
>>> <board at mug.org>, <sanzicar at yahoo.com>,
>>> <warnermach at gmail.com>, <mdlug at mdlug.org>, "Richard Jackson
>>> \(E-mail\)" <richardj55 at sbcglobal.net>, "Mike Bader
>>> \(E-mail\)" <mdbader at wowway.com>, "Franz Breidenich
>>> \(E-mail\)" <franzb at ameritech.net>, "Ronald Green \(E-mail\)"
>>> <argie4444 at yahoo.com>, "John Lodden \(E-mail\)"
>>> <jrl at lodden.com>, "Mike Rudas \(E-mail\)" <open.computing at yahoo.com>
>>> Subject: RE: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 08:47:49 -0400
>>>
>>> Could we have a planning meeting next Wednesday, April 28th, to try to
>>> finalize plans for the Penguicon hospitality room? That would
>>> leave 1 day
>>> for completion of any tasks before Penguicon.
>>>
>>> There are still a number of critical items on Gibson's list,
>>> see URL below,
>>> that are not covered e.g. crock pot, and several more
>>> not-quite-so-critical
>>> items to be either covered or dropped.
>>>
>>> Among other things, I think we have to make a decision about
>>> food, other
>>> than the chili, and soft drinks. As I recall, last year, a
>>> couple of guys
>>> went shopping for food and beverages, but I have heard of no
>>> similar plans
>>> for this year.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> Robert Clyne
>>> clyne at mich.com
>>> 810-387-3101
>>> SouthEastern Michigan Computer Organization, Inc (SEMCO)
>>> http://www.semco.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: gib at juno.com [mailto:gib at juno.com]
>>> > Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 11:22 AM
>>> > To: officers at mdlug.org; clyne at lodden.com; board at mug.org;
>>> > richard55 at sbcglobal.net; clyne at mich.com; sanzicar at yahoo.com;
>>> > warnermach at gmail.com; mdlug at mdlug.org
>>> > Subject: Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I've updated the Penguicon list. I added a party room watch list.
>>> >
>>> > http://gibby.servehttp.com/penguicon/list.html
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ____________________________________________________________
>>> > Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
>>> > Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
>>> > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bcb2405258102e7684st03vuc
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


From gib at juno.com  Fri Apr 30 18:05:05 2010
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 22:05:05 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Room Number is 1211 - - -Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and
	SEMCO
Message-ID: <20100430.180505.23979.0@webmail08.vgs.untd.com>


Correction room number is 1211.

Please note: message attached

From: "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
To: gib at juno.com
Cc: warnermach at gmail.com,  richardj55 at sbcglobal.net,  clyne at lodden.com,  officers at mdlug.org,  board at mug.org,  sanzicar at yahoo.com,  mdlug at mdlug.org,  mdbader at wowway.com,  franzb at ameritech.net,  argie4444 at yahoo.com,  jrl at lodden.com,  open.computing at yahoo.com,  edz at comcast.net
Subject: Room Number is 211  - - -Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:56:22 GMT


____________________________________________________________
Penny Stock Jumping 2000%
Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4bdb54658a5ac251068st05vuc
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Subject: Room Number is 211  - - -Penguicon Room Party - MDLUG and SEMCO
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