From lamber45 at msu.edu  Fri Feb  1 06:59:04 2008
From: lamber45 at msu.edu (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 06:59:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
Message-ID: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>

I have a Compaq Armada laptop running Linux.  I've been using a PCMCIA Ethernet adapter:  "Network Everywhere Fast Ethernet 10/100", model NP100.  It's the kind that has a little dongle to connect to the Ethernet cable.  

The other day,  one of my sons pulled either the dongle or the card out while the computer was on,  and now it won't work.  I actually have two cards (exactly the same) and only one dongle, so I tried it with the other card; it still won't work.  In the past I've been able to connect and disconnect the dongle without causing trouble.  The cards show up in "pccardctl ls", and I have an "eth0" interface,  but the lights on the dongle don't come on and I can't ping any other host on the network I'm connected to.  

I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the PCMCIA slot is still OK, then I can get another card of the same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a wireless PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?

--
DLL


From lnovak1 at ford.com  Fri Feb  1 07:40:42 2008
From: lnovak1 at ford.com (Novak, Louis (L.M.))
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:40:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
References: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE945@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>


Go wireless and you'll never go back.

I have a couple of older Orinoco Gold cards that
are well supported.

Do you want one? 


-- 
Louis Novak  lnovak1 at ford.com   (313)248-6788 
Ford Motor Co., IT Learning & Organizational Development
Eco-Tip: Printing emails is usually a waste. 
Make this tip go viral, add it to your email signature.
Ask me about my Mercury Mariner Hybrid  



-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of David Lee Lambert
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 6:59 AM
To: MDLUG's main mailing list
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working

I have a Compaq Armada laptop running Linux.  I've been using a PCMCIA
Ethernet adapter:  "Network Everywhere Fast Ethernet 10/100", model
NP100.  It's the kind that has a little dongle to connect to the
Ethernet cable.  

The other day,  one of my sons pulled either the dongle or the card out
while the computer was on,  and now it won't work.  I actually have two
cards (exactly the same) and only one dongle, so I tried it with the
other card; it still won't work.  In the past I've been able to connect
and disconnect the dongle without causing trouble.  The cards show up in
"pccardctl ls", and I have an "eth0" interface,  but the lights on the
dongle don't come on and I can't ping any other host on the network I'm
connected to.  

I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the PCMCIA slot is
still OK, then I can get another card of the same model and hope the
dongle works,  or get a wireless PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If
the slot itself is burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.
Any advice?

--
DLL
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb  1 07:48:51 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 07:48:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
References: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <47A31533.7070106@ameritech.net>

David Lee Lambert wrote:

> The other day,  one of my sons pulled either the dongle or the card out while 
> the computer was on,  and now it won't work.  I actually have two cards 
> (exactly the same) and only one dongle, so I tried it with the other card; it
> still won't work.  In the past I've been able to connect and disconnect the
> dongle without causing trouble.  The cards show up in "pccardctl ls", and I
> have an "eth0" interface,  but the lights on the dongle don't come on and I
> can't ping any other host on the network I'm connected to.  

> I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the PCMCIA slot is still OK,
> then I can get another card of the same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a
> wireless PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is burned out or
> something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?
> 
> --
> DLL

Take a flashlight and look in the slot for any bent or broken pins.
Can you locate another laptop with a cardbus slot to try the cards in?
Do you have any other cards to try in the slot?
I would suspect the slot or the dongle, it seems unlikely that both
cards were damaged.




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  1 09:00:48 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:00:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

I had some trouble a couple days ago encoding a DVD for my Palm Pilot. The machine
locked up hard (so hard the reset button didn't work, and I had to cut the power from
the power supply) a couple of times.

 The next night, it worked for one chapter, then I set it to work on another chapter
and went to bed. The next morning, the screen was totally locked and I had to ssh in
over Bluetooth from my Palm and shutdown the machine from there. Then, it failed to
boot up again, locking up after the drives were identified.

 I think I now know why it didn't work. Last night when I tried to boot it, I noticed
that the BIOS was reporting only 1 CPU, though there are two there - Athlon MPs. I have
to presume one of the CPUs failed, and I'll have to yank it and hope the other CPU is
operational and I can boot the machine.

 Prices for the 2GHz Athlon MPs are over a hundred bucks. I rather doubt I'll be picking
one up any time soon.

 Oy.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317

 "There is a fine line between being on to something and on something."
                          -Friar Broccoli
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 09:13:10 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:13:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>

Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
the MS purchase.

Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
but with the current Bush administration, who knows?

~~ Mikey


From wolfger at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 09:33:10 2008
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:33:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>

That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.

On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
> the MS purchase.
>
> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
>
> ~~ Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  1 09:33:27 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:33:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: David Lee Lambert
 
> I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the 
> PCMCIA slot is still OK, then I can get another card of the 
> same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a wireless 
> PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is 
> burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?

 It sounds very like the dongle has a problem. I had a PCMCIA ethernet card
with similar issues, though the dongle would generally work if it were held
in a particular position.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                    (313) 227-2317

 "The opponents of disarming Saddam have sneered even at the possibility of
     a link between al Qaeda and Iraq, but that is not the kind of linkage
    either side would advertise. There is plenty of evidence that Iraq has
  harbored al Qaeda members..." - Wall Street Journal editorial, 2003/03/18

 "Any links between Al Qaeda and Iraq is a separate issue that was barely
 mentioned in the run-up to war." - Wall Street Journal editorial, 2007/02/12
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Feb  1 13:29:48 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:29:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>

Just when I was starting to warm up to Python:

http://www.itnews.com.au/News/69326,breaking-the-python-code.aspx

Michael


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb  1 13:34:57 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:34:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20080201183352.EF354C0B1@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Ingles, Raymond
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:01 AM
> To: Mdlug (E-mail)
> Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
> 
> I had some trouble a couple days ago encoding a DVD for my 
> Palm Pilot. The machine locked up hard (so hard the reset 
> button didn't work, and I had to cut the power from the power 
> supply) a couple of times.
> 
>  The next night, it worked for one chapter, then I set it to 
> work on another chapter and went to bed. The next morning, 
> the screen was totally locked and I had to ssh in over 
> Bluetooth from my Palm and shutdown the machine from there. 
> Then, it failed to boot up again, locking up after the drives 
> were identified.
> 
>  I think I now know why it didn't work. Last night when I 
> tried to boot it, I noticed that the BIOS was reporting only 
> 1 CPU, though there are two there - Athlon MPs. I have to 
> presume one of the CPUs failed, and I'll have to yank it and 
> hope the other CPU is operational and I can boot the machine.
> 
>  Prices for the 2GHz Athlon MPs are over a hundred bucks. I 
> rather doubt I'll be picking one up any time soon.
> 
>  Oy.
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                                              
> (313) 227-2317
> 

	Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.

	-Rob



From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Feb  1 13:41:00 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:41:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011340260.2303@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-01, Monsieur Wolfger a ecrit:
> That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.

Until Microsoft buys them out. ;)

Michael


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  1 13:42:18 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:42:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <20080201183352.EF354C0B1@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543D@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.

 I replaced the power supply last year. I'm doubtful it's the power supply at
this point.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 15:59:56 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:59:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>
	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>

At 10:24 PM 1/31/08, Robert Meier wrote:

>The underlying hardware, if access is supported,
>should be available via ioctl(2).
>Start by looking at tty_ioctl(4), including TIOCM_CD.
>It is probable you will have to load some additional
>CONFIG_SERIAL_8250 kernel modules.
>It is possible you will have to recompile your kernel,
>as IIRC tty_ioctl support is no longer standard.
>
>To interpret much of the above man pages you will need to download and
>understand the spec sheet for the 8251 Universal Asynchronous Receiver
>Transmitter that is the canonical hardware implementation of RS-232.

     I'm looking at the man page for tty_ioctl(4), from which it 
looks like I need
to write a C program or something which can #include and call the function,
executing "ioctl(fd, TIOCMGET, &modeminfo);" then "modeminfo &= TIOCM_CAR;"

     Most of the info that I need (eg, values for TIOCMGET and TIOCM_CAR)
should be in the header files, and I could theoretically write the 
program without
ever knowing what these constants are.

     Finding a value for fd (the serial port handle) is a bit more 
problematic: For
all TRUE returns, it is anticipated (in fact part of the definition 
of a valid TRUE
return) that the serial port will be in use, grabbed by VMware. I found that
PalmOS allows multiple programs to open the (same) serial port; but 
I'm not sure
about whether Linux does.


> >> * If there is no actual modem, but just a straight serial connection
> >>    using pins 2, 3, and ground, can reading Carrier Detect in that
> >>    manner be relied upon to return an OFF status?
>
>No.

     Then I need to find some other way to determine whether the serial
port is connected *and* refrain from using it from VMs for any serial work
(eg, Palm apps)...



>If your goal is security,
>then you might consider wiring the carrier detect line to a parallel
>port pin to monitor it.


     I might look into the parallel pin method a bit more anyway, but my goal
doesn't have anything to do with security.

     What I'm after is something that will automatically keep count of how many
minutes I've been connected to Netzero dialup during the month, without my
having to remember to do anything special before starting it up. I only get 10
hours a month, and they don't seem willing to provide a way to determine how
much time is left.

     I always do this from a Windows 98 virtual machine, as this makes it easy
to reset the system to a known good state every few uses; and I have minicom
on the host for direct dialing. So I figured that actual modem 
traffic (as opposed
to serial I/O without a modem) && the serial port in use by a virtual machine
would be a good indicator of whether to increment the minutes-in-the-month
counter (to be kept in/written to a file somewhere).

     A second serial port would get around some of the problems; I could then
dedicate /dev/ttyS0 to the modem and use the other port(s) for Palm and other
serial work, instead of unplugging and replugging cables all the time. However,
the only serial boards I have (or even heard of) are ISA, and I only have PCI
slots (and only three of those). There is provision for a second serial port on
the motherboard, but as a Winmodem, and I think there is physical interference
with use of one of the PCI slots.

     Any suggestions or ideas?

----

   - Drew.



From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb  1 14:09:56 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:09:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543D@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20080201190852.60B75C0B1@impelind.com>


> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > 	Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.
> 
>  I replaced the power supply last year. I'm doubtful it's the 
> power supply at this point.
> 

	Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...

	Besides, would you rather pay a restocking fee* on a $30+ item or a
$100+ item?

	-Rob




* Obviously assuming that where you go has a restocking fee.



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  1 15:27:23 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:27:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <20080201190852.60B75C0B1@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165440@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...

 Well, first I'm going to see if the machine will run with one CPU, and if
so, which one.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "A mother raising children is not considered 'a worker.' She
     is treated as if she has no input or productivity to
        contribute to the 'real economy'." - R.D. Green
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From gib at juno.com  Fri Feb  1 15:33:48 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:33:48 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
Message-ID: <20080201.153348.512.2@webmail08.vgs.untd.com>

 
Try Discount Computer - Telegraph just south of Plymouth Road. I've had good restocking experience with them.
http://discomp.com/


-- "Robert Adkins" <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:


> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.
> 
>  I replaced the power supply last year. I'm doubtful it's the 
> power supply at this point.
> 

Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...

Besides, would you rather pay a restocking fee* on a $30+ item or a
$100+ item?

-Rob




* Obviously assuming that where you go has a restocking fee.

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Find the perfect technology franchise.  Click here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iihB0RsgLFktTpu5p47OmW35eDRjY0dpUAbbGR5q1wP0IKqDC/


From admin at linuxtechdaily.com  Fri Feb  1 11:02:38 2008
From: admin at linuxtechdaily.com (Rich Hughes)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:02:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Level 3 Systems Administrator Position
Message-ID: <47A3429E.5070504@linuxtechdaily.com>

Hi,

Thought I would pass this along. Fused Network is looking for a systems 
administrator, telecommute position 10-40 hours per week. I use them for 
hosting and can't speak highly enough of them.

Here is the link:
http://www.fusednetwork.com/careers.php

Thanks,
Rich H


From Stan at mcomputersolutions.com  Fri Feb  1 18:50:20 2008
From: Stan at mcomputersolutions.com (Stan Green)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:50:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <200802011850.20611.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>

I know this will sound stupid, but have you cleaned the heat sink on the 
CPU's? DVD encoding is very CPU intense and can cause the CPU to get very 
hot. If not cooled, it can overheat and lock up the system. I have had this 
happen  on two different PC.  Now I clean them about once every 6 months.

HTH,
Stan Green
On Friday 01 February 2008 09:00, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> I had some trouble a couple days ago encoding a DVD for my Palm Pilot. The
> machine locked up hard (so hard the reset button didn't work, and I had to
> cut the power from the power supply) a couple of times.
>
>  The next night, it worked for one chapter, then I set it to work on
> another chapter and went to bed. The next morning, the screen was totally
> locked and I had to ssh in over Bluetooth from my Palm and shutdown the
> machine from there. Then, it failed to boot up again, locking up after the
> drives were identified.
>
>  I think I now know why it didn't work. Last night when I tried to boot it,
> I noticed that the BIOS was reporting only 1 CPU, though there are two
> there - Athlon MPs. I have to presume one of the CPUs failed, and I'll have
> to yank it and hope the other CPU is operational and I can boot the
> machine.
>
>  Prices for the 2GHz Athlon MPs are over a hundred bucks. I rather doubt
> I'll be picking one up any time soon.
>
>  Oy.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317
>
>  "There is a fine line between being on to something and on something."
>                           -Friar Broccoli
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or
> disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us
> immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Fri Feb  1 22:18:32 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:18:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:29:48 -0500 (EST)
Michael Corral wrote:

> Just when I was starting to warm up to Python:
> 
> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/69326,breaking-the-python-code.aspx
> 
> Michael

I'm awaiting details before judging.  I like Python a lot, though there
are details I dislike.  Python 3 _might_ be a really good thing.

David


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 23:44:36 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:44:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory tree to
	lower case
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>

I was trying to get an old application to work under Wine.  As you all
know, file and directory names are case sensitive in Linux but not in
Windows.  Wine hides the differences from the Windows applications.
When an executable update is applied to a Windows app that is designed
to overwrite existing files, Wine treats them as case insensitive so
the correct ones get clobbered.  But in the case of the app I was
working with, the update is a zip file that needs to be extracted over
the existing app tree in order to replace some of the files in various
subdirectories.  Just to make it fun, the file names in the zip had
different case than the target tree.  Not just all upper or lower case
either - lots of random CamelCase also.  Since Wine hides the case
from the app renaming everything to lower case doesn't affect it so I
went looking for a shell script, command, or graphical utility to do
that.  I found lots of script examples and apps but none of them
worked.  The problem is that none of them can handle renaming
directories recursively, especially more than one level deep.  The
"find" command can exec another command like "rename" but it parses
the full tree first then runs the app which then fails as soon as it
tries to access a subdirectory of a directory it just renamed.  I
threw together this hideous script that exhaustively parses the tree
but does anyone have a better method?  My script handles hidden file
names with spaces and other nonsense and I attached a tar.gz of the
tree I was testing against.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: renlctree.sh
Type: application/x-sh
Size: 1070 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080201/60d1c40b/attachment.sh>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: test_tree.tar.gz
Type: application/x-gzip
Size: 531 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080201/60d1c40b/attachment.gz>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 23:47:10 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:47:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802012047u54392c89g4afe9fb0958b56b6@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 1, 2008 10:18 PM, David Relson <relson at osagesoftware.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:29:48 -0500 (EST)
> Michael Corral wrote:
>
> > Just when I was starting to warm up to Python:
> >
> > http://www.itnews.com.au/News/69326,breaking-the-python-code.aspx
> >
> > Michael
>
> I'm awaiting details before judging.  I like Python a lot, though there
> are details I dislike.  Python 3 _might_ be a really good thing.

GCC has broke source compatibility in the past so I hesitate to hold
them to a higher standard.


From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb  2 03:44:58 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 03:44:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <20080201190852.60B75C0B1@impelind.com>
References: <20080201190852.60B75C0B1@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47A42D8A.7070804@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...
>
> 	Besides, would you rather pay a restocking fee* on a $30+ item or a
> $100+ item?
>   

And a power supply tester is a good thing to have.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Sat Feb  2 08:19:50 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 08:19:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <47A42D8A.7070804@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080202131842.21464C0B1@impelind.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 3:45 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...
> >
> > 	Besides, would you rather pay a restocking fee* on a 
> $30+ item or a 
> > $100+ item?
> >   
> 
> And a power supply tester is a good thing to have.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 

	Couldn't agree more.

	-Rob



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb  1 18:50:51 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:50:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A3B05B.4020008@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
> At 10:24 PM 1/31/08, Robert Meier wrote:
> 
>> The underlying hardware, if access is supported,
>> should be available via ioctl(2).
>> Start by looking at tty_ioctl(4), including TIOCM_CD.
>> It is probable you will have to load some additional
>> CONFIG_SERIAL_8250 kernel modules.
>> It is possible you will have to recompile your kernel,
>> as IIRC tty_ioctl support is no longer standard.
>>
>> To interpret much of the above man pages you will need to download and
>> understand the spec sheet for the 8251 Universal Asynchronous Receiver
>> Transmitter that is the canonical hardware implementation of RS-232.
> 
>      I'm looking at the man page for tty_ioctl(4), from which it 
> looks like I need
> to write a C program or something which can #include and call the function,
> executing "ioctl(fd, TIOCMGET, &modeminfo);" then "modeminfo &= TIOCM_CAR;"
> 
>      Most of the info that I need (eg, values for TIOCMGET and TIOCM_CAR)
> should be in the header files, and I could theoretically write the 
> program without
> ever knowing what these constants are.
> 
>      Finding a value for fd (the serial port handle) is a bit more 
> problematic: For
> all TRUE returns, it is anticipated (in fact part of the definition 
> of a valid TRUE
> return) that the serial port will be in use, grabbed by VMware. I found that
> PalmOS allows multiple programs to open the (same) serial port; but 
> I'm not sure
> about whether Linux does.
> 
> 
>>>> * If there is no actual modem, but just a straight serial connection
>>>>    using pins 2, 3, and ground, can reading Carrier Detect in that
>>>>    manner be relied upon to return an OFF status?
>> No.
> 
>      Then I need to find some other way to determine whether the serial
> port is connected *and* refrain from using it from VMs for any serial work
> (eg, Palm apps)...
> 
> 
> 
>> If your goal is security,
>> then you might consider wiring the carrier detect line to a parallel
>> port pin to monitor it.
> 
> 
>      I might look into the parallel pin method a bit more anyway, but my goal
> doesn't have anything to do with security.
> 
>      What I'm after is something that will automatically keep count of how many
> minutes I've been connected to Netzero dialup during the month, without my
> having to remember to do anything special before starting it up. I only get 10
> hours a month, and they don't seem willing to provide a way to determine how
> much time is left.

YOu can get DSL for like $13 a month now through Verizon/AOL.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb  1 20:45:04 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 20:45:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>

Wolfger wrote:
> That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.
>

I've been putting off moving my "email of last resort" from
yahoo to gmail.  This sealed it... and in fact, gmail has
improved its service so much (not just webmail, but both
POP and IMAP service, too!) that gmail is probably going to
be my ONLY email service.

Now I'm just fighting with the configuration -- I've got
IMAP working properly, but for some reason, I can't
mail out through the SMTP yet.


> On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
>> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
>> the MS purchase.
>>
>> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
>> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
>> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
>>
>> ~~ Mikey




From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sat Feb  2 12:18:22 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 12:18:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543D@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543D@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802021217390.4385@rich.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008, Ingles, Raymond wrote:

>> From: Robert Adkins
>
>> 	Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.
>
> I replaced the power supply last year. I'm doubtful it's the power supply at
> this point.

I agree with Rob. I'm not so sure, either. I've seen P/S that would fail 
in 3 hours after purchase.


From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Feb  2 13:22:28 2008
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 13:22:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com>

On Friday 01 February 2008 09:33, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> > From: David Lee Lambert
> >
> > I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the
> > PCMCIA slot is still OK, then I can get another card of the
> > same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a wireless
> > PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is
> > burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?
>
>  It sounds very like the dongle has a problem. I had a PCMCIA ethernet card
> with similar issues, though the dongle would generally work if it were held
> in a particular position.

My wife looked carefully at the dongle's plug (the one that plugs into the 
card) and noticed that the plastic had cracked on one side.  The place where 
I originally bought the card is still selling them for $9.99 each, so I 
ordered a replacement.  I'm using a USB Ethernet adapter until that arrives. 

Thanks to all for the advice.

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb  2 14:13:22 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 14:13:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <47A4C0D2.2020602@hotpop.com>

David Lee Lambert wrote:
> On Friday 01 February 2008 09:33, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>>> From: David Lee Lambert
>>>
>>> I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the
>>> PCMCIA slot is still OK, then I can get another card of the
>>> same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a wireless
>>> PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is
>>> burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?
>>  It sounds very like the dongle has a problem. I had a PCMCIA ethernet card
>> with similar issues, though the dongle would generally work if it were held
>> in a particular position.
> 
> My wife looked carefully at the dongle's plug (the one that plugs into the 
> card) and noticed that the plastic had cracked on one side.  The place where 
> I originally bought the card is still selling them for $9.99 each, so I 
> ordered a replacement.  I'm using a USB Ethernet adapter until that arrives. 
> 
> Thanks to all for the advice.
> 

I would just stick with the USB adapter.
1: You probably have more USB connectors than PCMCIA slots.

2: You can plug a USB hub into a USB connector, giving you
    even more USB connectors.

3: If one of your PCMCIA slots gets damaged, you're down
to only one.

So basically, use the PCMCIA slots ONLY when you have
a job that can't be solved with a USB device.




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  2 19:06:38 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:06:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802021606k314dd337vc3956bde1e2ae5c8@mail.gmail.com>

I use Yahoo and CNN for news but their coverage overlaps a lot so
dropping the former won't matter much.  I used to go through
Netscape.com before it changed to a Propeller portal
(www.propeller.com) which is similar to Slashdot.  Now I see it's just
a rebranded AOL portal.  Fark is more entertaining anyways.


From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Feb  2 21:50:21 2008
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 21:50:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <47A4C0D2.2020602@hotpop.com>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com> <47A4C0D2.2020602@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802022150.22858.davidl@lmert.com>

On Saturday 02 February 2008 14:13, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> David Lee Lambert wrote:
> > On Friday 01 February 2008 09:33, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> >>> From: David Lee Lambert
> >>>
> > [...]  I'm using a USB Ethernet adapter until
> > that arrives.
>
> I would just stick with the USB adapter.
> 1: You probably have more USB connectors than PCMCIA slots.

Only one USB port on this laptop,  but two PCMCIA slots.

> 2: You can plug a USB hub into a USB connector, giving you
>     even more USB connectors.

I tried that here.  I have a small USB 1.1 hub, but the adapter stopped 
working (dropping about 80% of TCP/IP packets) when I plugged it and a flash 
drive into the hub at the same time.  I don't know whether it was a power 
issue or a bandwidth issue.

> 3: If one of your PCMCIA slots gets damaged, you're down
> to only one.
>
> So basically, use the PCMCIA slots ONLY when you have
> a job that can't be solved with a USB device.

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From otakurider at gmail.com  Sat Feb  2 22:24:29 2008
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 22:24:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <cd5131a50802021924oe725a7er66e19b7cea6adc8d@mail.gmail.com>

Still may be a chance that Google or even Apple may buy it - yahoo not
really a search engine like google its more of a portal so the conflict is
not the same.  And if Apple buys it that will grind Ballmers butt I bet.
Microsquish buying could see a lot of top people leaving or at least a
really bad proxy fight with the board.  the stock is near the bid price
currently so it my pop a bit in a few days to make it not worth doing.

One can only hope


Pat
VP MDLUG


On Feb 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:

> Wolfger wrote:
> > That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.
> >
>
> I've been putting off moving my "email of last resort" from
> yahoo to gmail.  This sealed it... and in fact, gmail has
> improved its service so much (not just webmail, but both
> POP and IMAP service, too!) that gmail is probably going to
> be my ONLY email service.
>
> Now I'm just fighting with the configuration -- I've got
> IMAP working properly, but for some reason, I can't
> mail out through the SMTP yet.
>
>
> > On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
> >> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
> >> the MS purchase.
> >>
> >> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
> >> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
> >> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
> >>
> >> ~~ Mikey
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Sun Feb  3 13:34:54 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 13:34:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>

Drew wrote:

>      What I'm after is something that will automatically keep count of how many
> minutes I've been connected to Netzero dialup during the month, without my
> having to remember to do anything special before starting it up. I only get 10
> hours a month, and they don't seem willing to provide a way to determine how
> much time is left.
> 
	Well, now that you've defined the problem domain, this might easier to 
solve than you might think.

	Take a look at the pppd manpage, and the "SCRIPTS" section.

	There's a environment variable called "CONNECT_TIME", which, per the 
manpage is defined as:

"The number of seconds from when the PPP negotiation started until the 
connection was terminated."

This variable gets set when the connection is terminated and PPP runs 
one of its standard scripts.  You could probably call something from the 
/etc/ppp/ip-down or auth-down scripts when the ppp link goes down to 
read that variable (or pass it as a parameter) to do the link time 
accounting that you're trying to do based on that number of seconds.

	While the serial port method would probably be workable in the end, 
having pppd log things after disconnect may be the least painful way to 
do what you're trying to do.


-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Sun Feb  3 15:19:17 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:19:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: laptop power problems
Message-ID: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>

Hi All,

I know this is off topic but ...

My son is a sophomore at the U.M. School of Engineering and his laptop
has a problem.  The laptop is a Dell Inspiron E1505 that's 18 months
old.

The laptop works fine off of the battery.  Plugged in (but without the
battery) it doesn't run. He's tested with a friend's power brick and
the symptoms are the same. We suspect a problem with the power jack
(port) in the laptop.

Does anybody have experience with such problems?  What do you recommend?
Obviously one solution is ship it back to Dell for repairs.  I presume
that's slower than one would wish.  Are there any reasonable
homebrew solutions?  Do any of the local (Ann Arbor) computer stores
do such repairs?

Thanks.

David

P.S. Please "Reply All" as he's not on the mailing list.



From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 17:43:12 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:43:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>
	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>

At 01:34 PM 2/3/08, Joseph C. Bender wrote:


>         Well, now that you've defined the problem domain, this 
> might easier to
>solve than you might think.
>
>         Take a look at the pppd manpage, and the "SCRIPTS" section.
>
>         There's a environment variable called "CONNECT_TIME", which, per the
>manpage is defined as:
>
>"The number of seconds from when the PPP negotiation started until the
>connection was terminated."

     Problem is, the ppp is being handled in the Windows virtual 
machine, and thus is
not likely to be visible to the Linux host. All the host is likely to 
know is that the serial
port is being used by VMware, and maybe if I'm lucky whether or not 
the modem is
talking over the phone. (There had for a while been no version of NZ 
for Linux; and I
think one might still be lacking.)

     Now this doesn't mean I can't use the idea. But I will have to 
successfully install the
software to run via Wine, and get a handle on keeping a tarball of 
the known good state
around to restore periodically, and also denying access to the rest 
of the system to
all the netzero stuff...Maybe NZ via Wine in a Kanotix VM?

     I'd still like to see what can be done with simple serial port 
monitoring first.

----

   - Drew.



From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 17:43:12 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:43:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>
	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>

At 01:34 PM 2/3/08, Joseph C. Bender wrote:


>         Well, now that you've defined the problem domain, this 
> might easier to
>solve than you might think.
>
>         Take a look at the pppd manpage, and the "SCRIPTS" section.
>
>         There's a environment variable called "CONNECT_TIME", which, per the
>manpage is defined as:
>
>"The number of seconds from when the PPP negotiation started until the
>connection was terminated."

     Problem is, the ppp is being handled in the Windows virtual 
machine, and thus is
not likely to be visible to the Linux host. All the host is likely to 
know is that the serial
port is being used by VMware, and maybe if I'm lucky whether or not 
the modem is
talking over the phone. (There had for a while been no version of NZ 
for Linux; and I
think one might still be lacking.)

     Now this doesn't mean I can't use the idea. But I will have to 
successfully install the
software to run via Wine, and get a handle on keeping a tarball of 
the known good state
around to restore periodically, and also denying access to the rest 
of the system to
all the netzero stuff...Maybe NZ via Wine in a Kanotix VM?

     I'd still like to see what can be done with simple serial port 
monitoring first.

----

   - Drew.



From rstaff at sprynet.com  Sun Feb  3 16:14:15 2008
From: rstaff at sprynet.com (Richard Staff)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 16:14:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>

Hey, I didn't know that Python was a Microsoft product!   ;-)
Will there be conversion tools or at least analysis tools that can 
identify where changes must be made to 2.x code?
Peace, Rick
================[]
David Relson wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:29:48 -0500 (EST)
> Michael Corral wrote:
>
>   
>> Just when I was starting to warm up to Python:
>>
>> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/69326,breaking-the-python-code.aspx
>>
>> Michael
>>     
>
> I'm awaiting details before judging.  I like Python a lot, though there
> are details I dislike.  Python 3 _might_ be a really good thing.
>
> David
>
>   


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 20:01:46 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:01:46 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 3, 2008 1:14 PM, Richard Staff <rstaff at sprynet.com> wrote:
> Hey, I didn't know that Python was a Microsoft product!   ;-)
> Will there be conversion tools or at least analysis tools that can
> identify where changes must be made to 2.x code?

Google is leading the charge on Python 3000, so we'd have to assume
that they will make it easy to transition.  They have the resources
:-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Sun Feb  3 20:27:32 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:27:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080203202732.21eabb1a@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:01:46 -0800
Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:

> On Feb 3, 2008 1:14 PM, Richard Staff <rstaff at sprynet.com> wrote:
> > Hey, I didn't know that Python was a Microsoft product!   ;-)
> > Will there be conversion tools or at least analysis tools that can
> > identify where changes must be made to 2.x code?
> 
> Google is leading the charge on Python 3000, so we'd have to assume
> that they will make it easy to transition.  They have the resources
> :-)
> -- 
> Kristian Erik Hermansen
> "Know something about everything and everything about something."

Kristian,

Have you any links indicating planned changes going into Python 3 ???

Given a while I'm sure I could come up with more than a few things that
annoy me in the current Python.  It'd be interesting to see if the
plans address any of my thoughts.

David


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 20:33:04 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:33:04 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <20080203202732.21eabb1a@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080203202732.21eabb1a@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802031733q58effa23h532dbd55f6c5a35d@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 3, 2008 5:27 PM, David Relson <relson at osagesoftware.com> wrote:
> Have you any links indicating planned changes going into Python 3 ???
>
> Given a while I'm sure I could come up with more than a few things that
> annoy me in the current Python.  It'd be interesting to see if the
> plans address any of my thoughts.

A friend sent along some info to me, so I don't have links.  But, from
what I know, print will not be a statement.  print() is now a function
-- which will probably break a lot of code :-)  There are lots of
other changes in unicode to support it properly.  There are many
architectural changes that will probably break old code too.  And
perhaps we will see better threading/multiprocessing support...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Sun Feb  3 22:20:44 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:20:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802031733q58effa23h532dbd55f6c5a35d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080203202732.21eabb1a@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<fe37588d0802031733q58effa23h532dbd55f6c5a35d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080203222044.5ad1c4b1@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:33:04 -0800
Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:

> On Feb 3, 2008 5:27 PM, David Relson <relson at osagesoftware.com> wrote:
> > Have you any links indicating planned changes going into Python
> > 3 ???
> >
> > Given a while I'm sure I could come up with more than a few things
> > that annoy me in the current Python.  It'd be interesting to see if
> > the plans address any of my thoughts.
> 
> A friend sent along some info to me, so I don't have links.  But, from
> what I know, print will not be a statement.  print() is now a function
> -- which will probably break a lot of code :-)  There are lots of
> other changes in unicode to support it properly.  There are many
> architectural changes that will probably break old code too.  And
> perhaps we will see better threading/multiprocessing support...
> -- 
> Kristian Erik Hermansen
> "Know something about everything and everything about something."

I did a quick search for "Python 3000".  Indeed, print changes from a
statement to a function.  Also of interest, sort() changes from
"in-place" to returning an object.

For example, instead of

   keys = dictionary.keys()
   keys.sort( )
   for key in keys:

Python will allow

   for key in dictionary.keys().sort():

(or something like that).

David


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Sun Feb  3 22:33:57 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:33:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A687A5.6050806@bendorius.com>

Drew wrote:

>      Problem is, the ppp is being handled in the Windows virtual 
> machine, and thus is
> not likely to be visible to the Linux host. All the host is likely to 
> know is that the serial
> port is being used by VMware, and maybe if I'm lucky whether or not 
> the modem is
> talking over the phone. (There had for a while been no version of NZ 
> for Linux; and I
> think one might still be lacking.)
>
	Oh!  I got it backwards.  My mistake.

>      I'd still like to see what can be done with simple serial port 
> monitoring first.
> 
	I'm still wondering if there's a way to query VMWare as to when the 
serial port is open or closed.  The fact that VMware is involved may 
cause issues with making stty calls at it.  YOu might want to see if 
there's anything in the VMWare API to see if you can query the status of 
the virtual serial port that way.

	I take it that the Netzero Linux client won't do you any good?  I 
thought they had one?


-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Sun Feb  3 22:36:01 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:36:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>

Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> Google is leading the charge on Python 3000, so we'd have to assume
> that they will make it easy to transition.  They have the resources
> :-)

	The cynic in me assumes that Google will be making it easy for Google 
to transition to Python 3.  They, if you think about it, have no reason 
to make it easy for anyone else to do so.

	Why everyone assumes Google are the good guys is beyond me.  I'm 
waiting for the day where Microsoft gets the prestige and goodwill that 
IBM does, because Google is the New Evil Company.



-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 23:03:02 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:03:02 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802032003t56e44711v4876883f9562b04e@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 3, 2008 7:36 PM, Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com> wrote:
>         The cynic in me assumes that Google will be making it easy for Google
> to transition to Python 3.  They, if you think about it, have no reason
> to make it easy for anyone else to do so.
>
>         Why everyone assumes Google are the good guys is beyond me.  I'm
> waiting for the day where Microsoft gets the prestige and goodwill that
> IBM does, because Google is the New Evil Company.

Google has given me a number of free services which have greatly
simplified the way I live my life.  If that is a crime, then so be it.
 I assume that they use my data.  The fact is, I attempt not to put
any data that I really care about in any form on Google services.
Most of my data, however, is not sensitive.  Sure, they can infer a
lot about me based on some habits of mine and who I communicate with,
but I make ti difficult for them to track me.  I utilize a lot of
software that prevents them from data mining me as an individual...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From tcameron at redhat.com  Mon Feb  4 01:18:28 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:18:28 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Red Hat is Hiring
Message-ID: <47A6AE34.9010604@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Howdy All -

My name is Thomas Cameron, and I am the solutions architect (a.k.a.
sales engineer) team lead for the central region of the United States.
I am not a recruiter, I'm a technical employee at Red Hat based out of
Austin, Texas.

We're looking for sales engineers, consultants and technical trainers in
the Detroit area.

Please be aware that all three of these positions requires *extensive*
travel.  We do our best to get our people home for the weekends, but in
many cases you can expect to travel 75% or more.  Sales engineers spend
3-5 days/week on the road.  Trainers spend 5 days/week on the road with
a target of one week off per month for professional development and
curriculum development.  Consultants are on the road 5 days/week with
pretty sporadic weeks off, just depending on what sorts of projects we
have in the pipeline.

If you're interested and have a strong background in enterprise
computing with Linux (RHCE *heavily* preferred), please do two things:

1) Fill out the form at
https://redhat.ats.hrsmart.com/cgi-bin/a/editprofile.cgi and list my
e-mail address (tcameron at redhat.com) as an employee referral in the "How
did you hear about us?" section.

2) Send me an e-mail with your interest (sales engineer, consultant of
trainer) and your resume.

Please feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who might be
qualified and interested.
- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office 512-585-5631 cell 512-857-1345 fax
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHpq40mzle50YHwaARAi0uAJ4xWPNmyb9xFZQwgPLyl8nKv4DF+gCfUkIG
fdQWOlEBZ86oOBNAUQpd7u4=
=6sVq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From wolfger at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 05:21:55 2008
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 05:21:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330802040221x7c18f044mb3b2d7987d1d802@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 3, 2008 10:36 PM, Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com> wrote:

>         Why everyone assumes Google are the good guys is beyond me.  I'm
> waiting for the day where Microsoft gets the prestige and goodwill that
> IBM does, because Google is the New Evil Company.

If Google is "the New Evil", then sign me up and give me a black hat.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Feb  4 08:45:08 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 08:45:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <200802011850.20611.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165444@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Stan Green

> I know this will sound stupid, but have you cleaned the heat sink on the 
> CPU's? DVD encoding is very CPU intense and can cause the CPU to get very 
> hot. If not cooled, it can overheat and lock up the system.

 Yup, that's what I think happened. However, I *also* think permanent damage
has been done, since even after having been left off overnight, the machine
will no longer boot, and as I said, the BIOS reports only one CPU. I'm pretty
sure at least one of the CPUs in the machine is fried, and possibly both.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                (313) 227-2317

 "Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it
 will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation [of power] first, and
     then corruption, its necessary consequence." - Thomas Jefferson
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Feb  4 10:57:34 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 10:57:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory
	tree tolower case
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165446@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jeff Hanson

> The "find" command can exec another command like "rename" but it parses
> the full tree first then runs the app which then fails as soon as it
> tries to access a subdirectory of a directory it just renamed.

 I think you can used the "-depth" argument to force it to handle the
directory entries first, then the directories. This would allow you to
rename the files, then the enclosing directory, then the next highest
directory, and so forth...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "Improvements succeeded each other so rapidly, that machines
 which had never been finished were abandoned in the hands of
 their makers, because new improvements had superceded their
             utility." - Charles Babbage, 1832
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 13:18:13 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:18:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory
	tree tolower case
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165446@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165446@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802041018h7d34354avd2cde2d659ce771e@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 4, 2008 10:57 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  I think you can used the "-depth" argument to force it to handle the
> directory entries first, then the directories. This would allow you to
> rename the files, then the enclosing directory, then the next highest
> directory, and so forth...

Thanks.  That worked much better.  I must have overlooked the option
in the man page.  The simplified solution which covers both file and
directory names is:
find <dir> -depth -execdir rename 'y/A-Z/a-z/' {} \;


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 14:03:09 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:03:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <cd5131a50802021924oe725a7er66e19b7cea6adc8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
	<cd5131a50802021924oe725a7er66e19b7cea6adc8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802041103t52a0f901o52d17655edb50e1a@mail.gmail.com>

Here is a link to how to configure the google IMAP services:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/internet/setting-up-gmail-imap-support-in-thunderbird-2x/It's
pretty straight forward but the ports are a little non-traditional.
The
folders are a little strange.

I don't think M$ will ruin too much of the traditional Yahoo structure that
has been struggling the last few years. What I am nervous about is the
support that Yahoo has recently dedicated to improving the Web. YUI and the
developer video center have been invaluable tools to me. MS obviously has no
intention of improving the Web....

On Feb 2, 2008 10:24 PM, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:

> Still may be a chance that Google or even Apple may buy it - yahoo not
> really a search engine like google its more of a portal so the conflict is
> not the same.  And if Apple buys it that will grind Ballmers butt I bet.
> Microsquish buying could see a lot of top people leaving or at least a
> really bad proxy fight with the board.  the stock is near the bid price
> currently so it my pop a bit in a few days to make it not worth doing.
>
> One can only hope
>
>
> Pat
> VP MDLUG
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>
> > Wolfger wrote:
> > > That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.
> > >
> >
> > I've been putting off moving my "email of last resort" from
> > yahoo to gmail.  This sealed it... and in fact, gmail has
> > improved its service so much (not just webmail, but both
> > POP and IMAP service, too!) that gmail is probably going to
> > be my ONLY email service.
> >
> > Now I'm just fighting with the configuration -- I've got
> > IMAP working properly, but for some reason, I can't
> > mail out through the SMTP yet.
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
> > >> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
> > >> the MS purchase.
> > >>
> > >> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
> > >> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
> > >> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
> > >>
> > >> ~~ Mikey
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Feb  4 14:14:21 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:14:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directorytree
	tolower case
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802041018h7d34354avd2cde2d659ce771e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716544A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jeff Hanson

> Thanks.  That worked much better.  I must have overlooked the option
> in the man page.

 Find's syntax is, um, kind of baroque. Not the same as "broke", though sometimes
I wonder. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                       (313) 227-2317

 Joe and Suzanne Werfelman of Sciota, Pa., were shocked to hear
 from their son, Richard, a 23-year-old law student called up by
 his military-police unit, that he had been issued a protective
 vest without the plates that stop automatic-rifle rounds. They
  bought and shipped the plates themselves, at a cost of $660.
          http://www.msnbc.com/news/991161.asp?0cv=KB10
              ("Support the Troops", indeed.)
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 17:01:54 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:01:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: laptop power problems
In-Reply-To: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802041401n59f27e77rd496438251b67cbf@mail.gmail.com>

--- David Relson wrote:

> The laptop works fine off of the battery.  Plugged in (but without the
> battery) it doesn't run. He's tested with a friend's power brick and
> the symptoms are the same. We suspect a problem with the power jack
> (port) in the laptop.

> Does anybody have experience with such problems?  What do you recommend?

It's almost certainly a broken connection at the power jack or a
broken power jack.  This is a common problem -- the power plug acts
like a lever to damage the PC board that the jack is soldered to, or
even pry the connector itself apart.  These connectors are fairly
common and the PCB can be repaired as needed, locally.

~~ Mikey


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb  3 05:23:41 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 05:23:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <200802022150.22858.davidl@lmert.com>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com>
	<47A4C0D2.2020602@hotpop.com> <200802022150.22858.davidl@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <47A5962D.8020606@hotpop.com>

David Lee Lambert wrote:
> On Saturday 02 February 2008 14:13, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> David Lee Lambert wrote:
>>> On Friday 01 February 2008 09:33, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>>>>> From: David Lee Lambert
>>>>>
>>> [...]  I'm using a USB Ethernet adapter until
>>> that arrives.
>> I would just stick with the USB adapter.
>> 1: You probably have more USB connectors than PCMCIA slots.
> 
> Only one USB port on this laptop,  but two PCMCIA slots.
>

Ouch.
In that case, never mind.

>> 2: You can plug a USB hub into a USB connector, giving you
>>     even more USB connectors.
> 
> I tried that here.  I have a small USB 1.1 hub, but the adapter stopped 
> working (dropping about 80% of TCP/IP packets) when I plugged it and a flash 
> drive into the hub at the same time.  I don't know whether it was a power 
> issue or a bandwidth issue.

It's probably bandwidth.
You need a 2.0 hub.

> 
>> 3: If one of your PCMCIA slots gets damaged, you're down
>> to only one.
>>
>> So basically, use the PCMCIA slots ONLY when you have
>> a job that can't be solved with a USB device.
> 





From relson at osagesoftware.com  Mon Feb  4 20:33:22 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 20:33:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [WLUG] OT: laptop power problems
In-Reply-To: <47A7B712.7090202@nthstone.mi.org>
References: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A7B712.7090202@nthstone.mi.org>
Message-ID: <20080204203322.7a2ebc62@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:08:34 -0500
tony audas wrote:

> David Relson wrote:
> > ... We suspect a problem with the power jack
> > (port) in the laptop.
> >
> > Does anybody have experience with such problems?  What do you
> > recommend? 
> yup, could be a loose power jack.
> 
> i can professionally recommend MCRS on South Industrial 663-3646.
> they have someone onstaff experienced with solder and epoxy.
> i work at Computer Alley on State St.
> we are not currently doing component-level repairs (soldering).
> --


Eric had figured that it was the DC power jack and, with Rick Green's
help, we're going to take a shot at fixing it tomorrow.  If we're not
successful, it's good to know that there _are_ still places in Ann
Arbor that do repairs.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Regards,

David


From gib at juno.com  Mon Feb  4 20:35:05 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 01:35:05 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
Message-ID: <20080204.203505.6148.2@webmail24.vgs.untd.com>


I heard that Google stock took a hit today.  Seems you can't even say anything bad about Microsoft.

-- Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
Here is a link to how to configure the google IMAP services:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/internet/setting-up-gmail-imap-support-in-thunderbird-2x/It's
pretty straight forward but the ports are a little non-traditional.
The
folders are a little strange.

I don't think M$ will ruin too much of the traditional Yahoo structure that
has been struggling the last few years. What I am nervous about is the
support that Yahoo has recently dedicated to improving the Web. YUI and the
developer video center have been invaluable tools to me. MS obviously has no
intention of improving the Web....

On Feb 2, 2008 10:24 PM, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:

> Still may be a chance that Google or even Apple may buy it - yahoo not
> really a search engine like google its more of a portal so the conflict is
> not the same.  And if Apple buys it that will grind Ballmers butt I bet.
> Microsquish buying could see a lot of top people leaving or at least a
> really bad proxy fight with the board.  the stock is near the bid price
> currently so it my pop a bit in a few days to make it not worth doing.
>
> One can only hope
>
>
> Pat
> VP MDLUG
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>
> > Wolfger wrote:
> > > That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.
> > >
> >
> > I've been putting off moving my "email of last resort" from
> > yahoo to gmail.  This sealed it... and in fact, gmail has
> > improved its service so much (not just webmail, but both
> > POP and IMAP service, too!) that gmail is probably going to
> > be my ONLY email service.
> >
> > Now I'm just fighting with the configuration -- I've got
> > IMAP working properly, but for some reason, I can't
> > mail out through the SMTP yet.
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
> > >> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
> > >> the MS purchase.
> > >>
> > >> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
> > >> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
> > >> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
> > >>
> > >> ~~ Mikey
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_____________________________________________________________
The pressure is on! Click now for a new pressure washer!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iietu9myAGbwgwQaBpVgEVTzy1mOeSv0xhITBxcQQUsde0mfa/




From Bhaskar at anitej.com  Mon Feb  4 21:29:43 2008
From: Bhaskar at anitej.com (Bhaskar Navaneetham)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 21:29:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [WLUG] OT: laptop power problems
In-Reply-To: <20080204203322.7a2ebc62@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A7B712.7090202@nthstone.mi.org>
	<20080204203322.7a2ebc62@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <14d67c8d0802041829u6c718110k289eea9a6c2f07ff@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

The power card cost around $ 50.00 or may less if you buy from dell store or
buy a universal adapter from radio shack or circuit city that will help you
even  lot better if you use some other laptop, camcorder, camera. If you
decide to go with universal adapter, my recommendation don't go for iGO
product. They are expensive and hard to get the plug from them.

Best of luck for your research.

Bhaskar




On 04/02/2008, David Relson <relson at osagesoftware.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:08:34 -0500
> tony audas wrote:
>
> > David Relson wrote:
> > > ... We suspect a problem with the power jack
> > > (port) in the laptop.
> > >
> > > Does anybody have experience with such problems?  What do you
> > > recommend?
> > yup, could be a loose power jack.
> >
> > i can professionally recommend MCRS on South Industrial 663-3646.
> > they have someone onstaff experienced with solder and epoxy.
> > i work at Computer Alley on State St.
> > we are not currently doing component-level repairs (soldering).
> > --
>
>
> Eric had figured that it was the DC power jack and, with Rick Green's
> help, we're going to take a shot at fixing it tomorrow.  If we're not
> successful, it's good to know that there _are_ still places in Ann
> Arbor that do repairs.
>
> Thank you all for your feedback.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb  3 20:32:34 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 20:32:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A66B32.5090601@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
> At 01:34 PM 2/3/08, Joseph C. Bender wrote:
> 
> 
>> Well, now that you've defined the problem domain, this 
>> might easier to
>> solve than you might think.
>>
>> Take a look at the pppd manpage, and the "SCRIPTS" section.
>>
>> There's a environment variable called "CONNECT_TIME",
 >> which, per the manpage is defined as:
>>
>> "The number of seconds from when the PPP negotiation
 >> started until the connection was terminated."
> 
>      Problem is, the ppp is being handled in the Windows
 > virtual machine, and thus is not likely to be visible to
 > the Linux host. All the host is likely to know is that
 > the serial port is being used by VMware, and maybe if
 > I'm lucky whether or not the modem is talking over the
 > phone. (There had for a while been no version of NZ for
 > Linux; and I think one might still be lacking.)
> 


GEEZE...spend another $2 per month and get 24x7 DSL.

Some problems just are NOT worth solving, because there's
another method that's in a completely different class.


>      Now this doesn't mean I can't use the idea. But I
 > will have to successfully install the software to run
 > via Wine, and get a handle on keeping a tarball of the
 > known good state around to restore periodically, and
 > also denying access to the rest of the system to all
 > the netzero stuff...Maybe NZ via Wine in a Kanotix VM?
> 

Or you could just stop with this stupid dial-up stuff
and be done with this non-problem.

>      I'd still like to see what can be done with simple
 > serial port monitoring first.
> 
> ----
> 




From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Feb  5 02:04:17 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 02:04:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's Mail Bag
Message-ID: <47A80A71.7030005@ameritech.net>


> Dear Metro Detroit Linux Users Group Members:
> 
> Join us for the briefing "Managing requirements throughout the software 
> development lifecycle" and learn how to use IBM's Rational and WebSphere 
> tools from business modeling to design and testing.
> Detroit on February 14
> Register Today
> 
> Get an in-depth look at the process of defining and managing requirements 
> throughout the Software Development Lifecycle, as well as the IBM Rational 
> and IBM WebSphere tools used throughout the process.
> Join us for a complimentary continental breakfast at 8:30 a.m. The 
> briefing runs from 9:00 a.m. to 12:45 p.m. 
> Get more information on IBM developerWorks Live! events worldwide.
> We look forward to seeing you at the briefing. 
> Sincerely,
> The IBM developerWorks team



From tony at bemushosting.com  Tue Feb  5 13:50:54 2008
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 13:50:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's Mail Bag
In-Reply-To: <47A80A71.7030005@ameritech.net>
References: <47A80A71.7030005@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1202237454.6006.17.camel@bemus-tony>

Where can I register for this?

Tony Bemus


On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 02:04 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote: 

> > Dear Metro Detroit Linux Users Group Members:
> > 
> > Join us for the briefing "Managing requirements throughout the software 
> > development lifecycle" and learn how to use IBM's Rational and WebSphere 
> > tools from business modeling to design and testing.
> > Detroit on February 14
> > Register Today




From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Feb  5 16:06:30 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:06:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's Mail Bag
In-Reply-To: <1202237454.6006.17.camel@bemus-tony>
References: <47A80A71.7030005@ameritech.net>
	<1202237454.6006.17.camel@bemus-tony>
Message-ID: <47A8CFD6.6060304@ameritech.net>

Sorry,
The URL wasn't included in the text, only the html, so it got stripped.
<http://ibm.com/developerworks/ecma/campaign/er.jsp?id=251451&imid=55988242>


Tony Bemus wrote:
> Where can I register for this?
> 
> Tony Bemus
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 02:04 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote: 
> 
>>> Dear Metro Detroit Linux Users Group Members:
>>>
>>> Join us for the briefing "Managing requirements throughout the software 
>>> development lifecycle" and learn how to use IBM's Rational and WebSphere 
>>> tools from business modeling to design and testing.
>>> Detroit on February 14
>>> Register Today




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb  4 16:27:46 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:27:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory
 tree to	lower case
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A78352.8050902@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> I was trying to get an old application to work under Wine.  As you all
> know, file and directory names are case sensitive in Linux but not in
> Windows.  Wine hides the differences from the Windows applications.
> When an executable update is applied to a Windows app that is designed
> to overwrite existing files, Wine treats them as case insensitive so
> the correct ones get clobbered.  But in the case of the app I was
> working with, the update is a zip file that needs to be extracted over
> the existing app tree in order to replace some of the files in various
> subdirectories.  Just to make it fun, the file names in the zip had
> different case than the target tree.  Not just all upper or lower case
> either - lots of random CamelCase also.  Since Wine hides the case
> from the app renaming everything to lower case doesn't affect it so I
> went looking for a shell script, command, or graphical utility to do
> that.  I found lots of script examples and apps but none of them
> worked.  The problem is that none of them can handle renaming
> directories recursively, especially more than one level deep.  The
> "find" command can exec another command like "rename" but it parses
> the full tree first then runs the app which then fails as soon as it
> tries to access a subdirectory of a directory it just renamed.  I
> threw together this hideous script that exhaustively parses the tree
> but does anyone have a better method?  My script handles hidden file
> names with spaces and other nonsense and I attached a tar.gz of the
> tree I was testing against.


You didn't take advantage of the find command:

I would approach it like this:


#!/bin/bash
# recursively rename files and directories by translating
# upper case letters to lower case.
#
# Note -- beware of filename collisions when updating with
# files from microsoft platforms:
#
# 1.  Run once to convert all files to lowercase BEFORE
#     installing update files
#
# 2. Install updated MS-platform files
#
# 3. Run again, in event of name collision,
#     new files will overwrite older files
#
#
#
# usage:  scriptname
#
# No arguments... operates on the contents of the current directory
#
# Date		Author			Action
# ------------	-----------------------	---------------------------
# 04 Feb 2008	Aaron R. Kulkis		0.1 Code (untested)


filetolower()
{ FILENAME=$1
   NEWFILENAME=`echo $FILENAME | tr [:upper:] [:lower:] `
   mv $FILENAME $NEWFILENAME
}

find . -print -exec  filetolower \{\}\;





From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 18:02:02 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 18:02:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory
	tree to lower case
In-Reply-To: <47A78352.8050902@hotpop.com>
References: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A78352.8050902@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802051502t1864ae91o6f0c8ea04b1d60ac@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 4, 2008 4:27 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> You didn't take advantage of the find command:
>
> I would approach it like this:
>
>
> #!/bin/bash
> # recursively rename files and directories by translating
> # upper case letters to lower case.
> #
> # Note -- beware of filename collisions when updating with
> # files from microsoft platforms:
> #
> # 1.  Run once to convert all files to lowercase BEFORE
> #     installing update files
> #
> # 2. Install updated MS-platform files
> #
> # 3. Run again, in event of name collision,
> #     new files will overwrite older files
> #
> #
> #
> # usage:  scriptname
> #
> # No arguments... operates on the contents of the current directory
> #
> # Date          Author                  Action
> # ------------  ----------------------- ---------------------------
> # 04 Feb 2008   Aaron R. Kulkis         0.1 Code (untested)
>
>
> filetolower()
> { FILENAME=$1
>    NEWFILENAME=`echo $FILENAME | tr [:upper:] [:lower:] `
>    mv $FILENAME $NEWFILENAME
> }
>
> find . -print -exec  filetolower \{\}\;

Thanks for the tip.  I need to start using functions more in my
scripts.  It hasn't been a major problem yet due to my script
structures but it would help readability if I planned for it in
advance.


From Stan at mcomputersolutions.com  Tue Feb  5 20:40:12 2008
From: Stan at mcomputersolutions.com (Stan Green)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 20:40:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
Message-ID: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>

I picked up a 8GB USB drive at Micro Center. It is one of their store brand 
devices. When I went to use it I realized it is formated FAT32 which has a 
4GB file size limit. The reason I got the drive was to move large (6-7GB) 
files. I know ext2 can support larger files, but I hesitate to reformat the 
USB drive for fear of destroying it. (I have seen some indications on the 
internet that trying to reformat a USB drive has destroyed it.)

My thought is to keep a small FAT32 partition to store the Windows and Mac 
ext2 drivers in case I need them one of these systems. 

Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?

Thanks,
Stan Green


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 20:44:45 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 17:44:45 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802051744j5f951cc4pfeba0e5019501948@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 5, 2008 5:40 PM, Stan Green <Stan at mcomputersolutions.com> wrote:
> I picked up a 8GB USB drive at Micro Center. It is one of their store brand
> devices. When I went to use it I realized it is formated FAT32 which has a
> 4GB file size limit. The reason I got the drive was to move large (6-7GB)
> files. I know ext2 can support larger files, but I hesitate to reformat the
> USB drive for fear of destroying it. (I have seen some indications on the
> internet that trying to reformat a USB drive has destroyed it.)
>
> My thought is to keep a small FAT32 partition to store the Windows and Mac
> ext2 drivers in case I need them one of these systems.
>
> Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?

Yes, you may format however you like.  I once created a nice Ubuntu
USB live stick using ext3, but I bet ext2 would work as well.  If you
have enough space, you can even keep a FAT partition on it around for
use on windows...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Tue Feb  5 22:58:57 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Tue,  5 Feb 2008 22:58:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a
	directory	tree to lower case
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802051502t1864ae91o6f0c8ea04b1d60ac@mail.gmail.com>
	(jhansonxi@gmail.com)
References: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A78352.8050902@hotpop.com>
	<b02c40e90802051502t1864ae91o6f0c8ea04b1d60ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080206035857.08E3915EA04@starfox.local>

Jeff,

> Thanks for the tip.
> I need to start using functions more in my scripts.
> It hasn't been a major problem yet due to my script
> structures but it would help readability if I planned for it in
> advance.

The situation of selecting files and performing some operation
crops up often enough to have it's own POSIX.2 idiom.

     find ... -print | while read f; do ... "$f" ...; done

Note the use of quotes each parameter/command/... expansion
which avoids the often unintended splitting
of names with spaces into separate tokens.
Note that using one-pathname-per-line from -print allows use of "$f" in
dirname and other utilities in portable scripts.

     ---- function-find-while-test.sh ----
#!/bin/sh
# Project: Tutorials
# File:    Demonstration of function, find, while use
# Type:    /bin/sh
# Compl:   POSIX.2
# Author:  Dr. Robert J. Meier <robert.meier at computer.org>
# History: 2006.08.12 -rjm- file creation
#          2008.01.05 -rjm- added function demo



# First generate a function
changecase() {
  FILENAME="$1"			# quotes dont split words containing spaces
  NEWFILENAME="$( echo "$FILENAME" |
    tr "[:upper:][:lower:]" "[:lower:][:upper:]" )"
  echo "$FILENAME => $NEWFILENAME"
  mv "$FILENAME" "$NEWFILENAME"
}
export -f changecase		# functions are not auto exported to subshells

# Create some files to change
TESTDIR=/tmp/test-function-find-while
test -e "$TESTDIR" && rm -r "$TESTDIR"
mkdir -p "$TESTDIR/bibbity/bobbity"
cd "$TESTDIR"
touch Abracabra bibbity/bobbity/boo 'Hocus Pocus'

# Change them using find-while idiom
find . -type f -print |
  while read f; do (cd "$(dirname "$f")"; changecase "$(basename "$f")"); done
ls -R
     ---- function-find-while-test.sh ----

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Bob

  "You are responsible, forever, for what you have tamed.
   You are responsible for your rose."
     -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery




From tony at bemushosting.com  Tue Feb  5 23:03:30 2008
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:03:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802051744j5f951cc4pfeba0e5019501948@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<fe37588d0802051744j5f951cc4pfeba0e5019501948@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1202270610.9596.0.camel@bemus-tony>

I agree,  I have done the same and my flash drives still work.
Tony


On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 17:44 -0800, Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:

> >
> > Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?
> 
> Yes, you may format however you like.  I once created a nice Ubuntu
> USB live stick using ext3, but I bet ext2 would work as well.  If you
> have enough space, you can even keep a FAT partition on it around for
> use on windows...


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 23:53:26 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 23:53:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802052053h3cb39a61q737e58487d28b6e1@mail.gmail.com>

--- Stan Green wrote:
> I picked up a 8GB USB drive at Micro Center. It is one of their store brand
> devices. When I went to use it I realized it is formated FAT32 which has a
> 4GB file size limit.
> Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?

Why ext2 instead of ext3?  As a journaled file system, ext3 should be
more robust -- this might be a useful feature for a flash drive.

~~ Mikey


From shmi85 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  6 01:34:29 2008
From: shmi85 at yahoo.com (Elisa Gomez)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 22:34:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] More External Drive Problems
Message-ID: <269912.54239.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

I have an amazing ability to exponentially cause more
problems for myself. This occurred because I think I
edited a some file to permanently name my drive (I
named it 'franz') instead of having it rename itself a
different thing each time it gets remounted. Someone
on this list gave directions on how to do this, but
for the life of me I cannot remember what file I
edited.

When I shut down, unplug my laptop and start it back
up with the drive physically disconnected, this is
what happens during start-up:

Activing swap... [OK]
Checking root file system...
fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
/dev/sda2: clean, 210976/2093056 files,
1508440/4182924 blocks [OK]

Checking file systems...
fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
fsck.ext2: Unable to resolve 'LABEL="franz"'
fsck died with exit status 8 [fail]

*File system check failed
A log is being saved in /var/log/fsck/checkfs if that
location is writeable.
Please repair the file system manually.
*A maintenance shell will now be started.
CONTROL-D will terminate this shell and resume system
boot.
bash: no job control in this shell
bash: groups: command not found
bash: lesspipe: command not found
bash: Command: command not found
bash: The: command not found
bash: dircolors: command not found
bash: Command: command not found
bash: The: command not found
root at trotsky:~#  *Stopping the Firestarter firewall...


And then it would freeze up and pressing ctrl-d did
nothing.

I just recreated this again because I wanted to paste
in the log results for everyone and this time it did
continue with start-up after I pressed ctrl-d a couple
of times. However, I'd prefer to fix it somehow so
that it just checks to see if the drive is connected
and if it's not, it carries on normally without
breaking fsck. This is the log file:

Log of fsck -C -R -A -a 
Wed Feb  6 01:27:15 2008

fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
fsck.ext2: Unable to resolve 'LABEL="franz"'

fsck died with exit status 8

Wed Feb  6 01:27:15 2008
----------------


Any ideas? I really wish I could remember what file I
added an entry to about the external drive.

~Elisa


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Wed Feb  6 07:32:59 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 07:32:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More External Drive Problems
In-Reply-To: <269912.54239.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <269912.54239.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080206073259.6e275e93@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 22:34:29 -0800 (PST)
Elisa Gomez wrote:

> I have an amazing ability to exponentially cause more
> problems for myself. This occurred because I think I
> edited a some file to permanently name my drive (I
> named it 'franz') instead of having it rename itself a
> different thing each time it gets remounted. Someone
> on this list gave directions on how to do this, but
> for the life of me I cannot remember what file I
> edited.
> 
> When I shut down, unplug my laptop and start it back
> up with the drive physically disconnected, this is
> what happens during start-up:
> 
> Activing swap... [OK]
> Checking root file system...
> fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
> /dev/sda2: clean, 210976/2093056 files,
> 1508440/4182924 blocks [OK]
> 
> Checking file systems...
> fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
> fsck.ext2: Unable to resolve 'LABEL="franz"'
> fsck died with exit status 8 [fail]
> 
> *File system check failed
> A log is being saved in /var/log/fsck/checkfs if that
> location is writeable.
> Please repair the file system manually.
> *A maintenance shell will now be started.
> CONTROL-D will terminate this shell and resume system
> boot.
> bash: no job control in this shell
> bash: groups: command not found
> bash: lesspipe: command not found
> bash: Command: command not found
> bash: The: command not found
> bash: dircolors: command not found
> bash: Command: command not found
> bash: The: command not found
> root at trotsky:~#  *Stopping the Firestarter firewall...
> 
> 
> And then it would freeze up and pressing ctrl-d did
> nothing.
> 
> I just recreated this again because I wanted to paste
> in the log results for everyone and this time it did
> continue with start-up after I pressed ctrl-d a couple
> of times. However, I'd prefer to fix it somehow so
> that it just checks to see if the drive is connected
> and if it's not, it carries on normally without
> breaking fsck. This is the log file:
> 
> Log of fsck -C -R -A -a 
> Wed Feb  6 01:27:15 2008
> 
> fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
> fsck.ext2: Unable to resolve 'LABEL="franz"'
> 
> fsck died with exit status 8
> 
> Wed Feb  6 01:27:15 2008
> ----------------
> 
> 
> Any ideas? I really wish I could remember what file I
> added an entry to about the external drive.
> 
> ~Elisa

H'lo Elisa,

All is not lost!  The file is likely to be /etc/fstab.  If not that
file, it's a file in directory /etc.  Using grep's "-r" (recursive)
flag you can find the file by running "grep -n -r franz /etc".

HTH,

David


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Wed Feb  6 07:56:10 2008
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:56:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <C3CF189A.583B8%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Sorry for being terse, but I call BS on the "indications on the internet
that trying to reformat a USB drive has destroyed it."  If writing
filesystem information to a USB drive destroys it, then I can't see that you
wouldn't lose your data anyways, since that is all a format is really doing.

I hope that makes sense - my first cup of coffee is sitting in front of me,
undrunk as of yet.

Greg


On 2/5/08 8:40 PM, "Stan Green" <Stan at mcomputersolutions.com> wrote:

> I picked up a 8GB USB drive at Micro Center. It is one of their store brand
> devices. When I went to use it I realized it is formated FAT32 which has a
> 4GB file size limit. The reason I got the drive was to move large (6-7GB)
> files. I know ext2 can support larger files, but I hesitate to reformat the
> USB drive for fear of destroying it. (I have seen some indications on the
> internet that trying to reformat a USB drive has destroyed it.)
> 
> My thought is to keep a small FAT32 partition to store the Windows and Mac
> ext2 drivers in case I need them one of these systems.
> 
> Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?
> 
> Thanks,
> Stan Green
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Wed Feb  6 07:18:24 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed,  6 Feb 2008 07:18:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com> (message from
	Stan Green on Tue, 5 Feb 2008 20:40:12 -0500)
References: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <20080206121824.693B515EA04@starfox.local>

Stan,

> I have an amazing ability to exponentially cause more
> problems for myself. This occurred because I think I
> edited a some file to permanently name my drive (I
> named it 'franz') instead of having it rename itself a
> different thing each time it gets remounted. Someone
> on this list gave directions on how to do this, but
> for the life of me I cannot remember what file I
> edited.

I suspect the file editted is /etc/fstab,
a configuration file for mount(8).
It is a DIF (Data Interchange Format) file with six fields.

  "The sixth field, (fs_passno), is used by the fsck(8) program to  deter-
   mine the order in which filesystem checks are done at reboot time.  The
   root filesystem should be specified with a fs_passno of  1,  ...
   If the sixth field is not present or zero, ... fsck will assume that
   the filesystem does not need to be checked."
     -- fstab(5)

Removable media does not nominally need to be checked at reboot.

From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Feb  6 09:46:40 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:46:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare?
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716544F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

I've got a problem with my Windows machine at work. Recently, it's started
locking up hard when running VMWare. (The reason we need VMWare is pure
Microsoft silliness - their own compilers are slightly incompatible between
versions, so we need different revs of the compilers and libraries to work on
different revs of our product.) By "locking up hard" I mean the screen freezes,
audio playback halts, and nothing can be done but cutting the power and rebooting.
The system is stable except when running VMWare.

 I haven't been able to identify anything in particular causing the problem. I've
upgraded to a bigger disk recently, but I've uninstalled and reinstalled VMWare
Workstation 5 and 6, and started from scratch with new VMWare machine images, and
I still get the same lockups.

 I've heard that one can run a Windows install on a physical partition from
within VMWare. I'm trying to decide if I should shrink a partition on this
machine, install Linux, and run a couple of instances of VMWare from within
Linux - one for my day-to-day office stuff (like Outlook), and one for compiling
and development. I'd like to keep the existing Windows stuff insofar as possible,
just running it from within VMWare on Linux. I strongly suspect that VMWare will
be more stable on Linux than XP. The machine is a 2GHz P4 with 2GB of RAM, so I
figure it won't have too much trouble handling the load.

 Does anyone have any experience with this? Any tips or gotchas or warnings or
suggestions?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                           (313) 227-2317

 "Capitalism works primarily because most of the ways that a company
  can be scum end up being extremely bad for business when there's
                   working competition." -rra
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From rmclaughlin at mdlug.org  Wed Feb  6 16:51:32 2008
From: rmclaughlin at mdlug.org (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:51:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <47AA2BE4.mailNL31ECUTB@mdlug.nuge.com>

test


From rmclaughlin at mdlug.org  Wed Feb  6 16:56:08 2008
From: rmclaughlin at mdlug.org (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:56:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MDLUG Mailing list
Message-ID: <47AA2CF8.mailNQD19OMB4@mdlug.nuge.com>

MDLUGers:
The MDLUG mailing list server is doing just fine, but our DNS is kind of wonked
while we're transitioning our registrar. Please bear with us, service will resume
soon.

Thankyou
Raymond McLaughlin
MDLUG Server Admin


From mailman at mdlug.org  Thu Feb  7 04:40:08 2008
From: mailman at mdlug.org (GNU mailing list manager)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 04:40:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <47AAD1F8.mail14411SUTB@mdlug.nuge.com>

Day two test.


From rmclaughlin at mdlug.org  Thu Feb  7 12:46:58 2008
From: rmclaughlin at mdlug.org (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 12:46:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Still working on it
Message-ID: <47AB4412.mail2TD11VEUK@mdlug.nuge.com>

MDLUGers:

Sorry for the continued lack of access to your regular riviting discussions.
We are currently awaiting a password known only to someone who seems to be out of town.
We do have our regular meeting this Saturday at 12:30. For more info look here
<http://216.144.208.32>
With that IP you can browse the whole web site, unfortunately it doesn't seem to work for email.
We'll make an announcement when lie list is back up.

Sincerly
Raymond McLaughlin
Server Admin MDLUG


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb  7 20:57:10 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:57:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <47ABB6F6.9070901@ameritech.net>

test


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb  7 21:07:16 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:07:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] We're coming back up, but don't all post at once
Message-ID: <47ABB954.4000207@ameritech.net>

We're coming back up, but don't all post at once- Please
The config is still a little wonky, so give me a couple more hours.

It looks like Our presenter for this Saturday has experienced a
scheduling conflict and so we'll need to take a rain check. Vice
President Baker sounded like he could pull out a presentation on short
notice. Or maybe we'll just have to amuse our selves.

I hope to see lots of you this Saturday. Please hold your posts for a
couple hours

Raymond McLaughlin
Server-Admin mdlug.org


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb  7 21:38:20 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:38:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Testing my patience
Message-ID: <47ABC09C.2020300@ameritech.net>

Thinner...


From dobwan at comcast.net  Thu Feb  7 22:41:29 2008
From: dobwan at comcast.net (Duane Brown)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:41:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
Message-ID: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>

My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound 
business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I 
believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.

They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error 
something like "communications error on port 25".

I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of knowledge 
in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS environment with less than a 
handful of machines. I'm guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they 
can share the connection.

I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.

If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll forward your 
information to my niece.

I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put them in 
touch with someone who can get this fixed with out wasting their time.

Duane


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb  7 23:04:37 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:04:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Let the punitry and profundity commence!
Message-ID: <47ABD4D5.2060300@ameritech.net>

MDLUGers,

Sorry about the glitch. The MDLUG mailing lists are back up and functioning.

Here's what happened:

Bradley Glonka, an MDLUGer from way back in the SGI days, has been the
holder of the mdlug.org domain name for the last eight year of so. Every
year for the last several we have offered to compensate him or take it
off his hands, and he has always declined and just paid it himself.
(Thanks much Bradley!) Until this year. The Domain name was up for
renewal soon and Bradley took us up on our offer.

Since we were changing the ownership of the domain name we decided to
also shop for a cheaper registrar. The implementation of this strategy
was delegated and arrangements made. The plan was too change only the
registrar, leaving the Authoritative Nameserver and IP address
unchanged. With these attributes remaining unchanged the transition
should have been smooth.

This plan fell apart in the implementation. By some miscommunication the
new registrar left the Authoritative Nameserver and IP address at
*their* defaults. And to make matters worse the transfer, arranged last
week, went through on Wednesday, when the delegatee who was the primary
contact was out of town and out of contact.

Eventually contact was made, passwords were passed, and now things seem
to be working as they should. Since the smooth transition thing didn't
happen I went ahead and let the registrar provide Authoritative
Nameservice. Jay you don't need to do that any more, thanks.

So let the punitry and profundity commence! The MDLUG mailing lissts are
back on the air.

Raymond McLaughlin
MDLUG Server Admin


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 23:28:09 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:28:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Let the punitry and profundity commence!
In-Reply-To: <47ABD4D5.2060300@ameritech.net>
References: <47ABD4D5.2060300@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802072028p36f6b118n8cdea962079e07b@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 7, 2008 11:04 PM, Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
> So let the punitry and profundity commence! The MDLUG mailing lissts are
> back on the air.

That's good.  I guess I won't be needing the recall petition posters I
was working on. :D


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Fri Feb  8 00:09:10 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Fri,  8 Feb 2008 00:09:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net> (message from Duane Brown on Thu, 
	07 Feb 2008 22:41:29 -0500)
References: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080208050910.B13AB15EA04@starfox.local>

Duane,

> My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound 
> business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I 
> believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.

I recently switched to AT&T DSL and have found them linux friendly.
Their phone support had no trouble supplying the mail server address,
authentication protocol and particulars, when asked.

> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error 
> something like "communications error on port 25".

Port 25 is the IANA assignment for smtp.

Have you tried "bash> telnet mail.att.net 25"?
  (Replace mail.att.net with the mail server assigned by AT&T.)

See rfc2821 simple mail transport protocol for details.

> I am assuming this is configuration issue ...
> This is a mixed Apple and ... environment with less than a 
> handful of machines. I'm guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they 
> can share the connection.

Did you change your mail settings (e.g. relayhost (postfix), DS (sendmail))?

IIRC, your distro has gui tools for configuring mail.
SuSE uses "bash> sudo /sbin/yast2 mail".

AT&T DSL requires that I authenticate with the mail server using sasl
(rfc2222 simple authentication and security layer).
My prior isp used chap (challenge protocol(?)).
Both are supported by both postfix and sendmail,
as well as most mail user agents.



> I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put them in 
> touch with someone who can get this fixed with out wasting their time.

IMHO, a business is usually wise to pay a skilled local
for such non-core issues.

Good luck,
-- 
Bob

  "Touch a scientist and you touch a child."
     -- Ray Bradbury



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  8 01:15:42 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 01:15:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
References: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802072215h72301d67ife117d5b18ec7f1b@mail.gmail.com>

Duane Brown wrote:

> My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound
> business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I
> believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.

> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error
> something like "communications error on port 25".

AT&T/Yahoo! recently changed their mail protocols to SSL, with
"standard" settings for same.   My old non-SSL settings worked, but
Yahoo's mail server groused every time I hit it until I made the
switch to SSL.  Looking at the settings I JUST changed a few days ago
(after not using POP mail for a few months):

Inbound mail (POP) is on port 995 (default SSL in-port on
IceApe/SeaMonkey/Thunderbird).
Outbound mail (SMTP) is on port 465 (default SSL out-port on
IceApe/SeaMonkey/Thunderbird).

These look like the general defaults for SSL-encrypted mail transport.
 It all works fine.  You can check the Yahoo! Mail FAQs for details,
I'm sure...

~~ Mikey


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb  8 06:34:56 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 06:34:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080208113340.BE023C0C0@impelind.com>

Do they host their own internal Email server or do they access one outside
of their building via an outside webhost?

We utilize AT&T Business DSL, we host our own internal email server with all
incoming/outgoing email on our own equipment. The business service includes
5 outside IP Addresses that are on permanent lease to our account.

The solution to the problem you describe depends upon how they send/receive
email.

If it is an inhouse email server, I would take a look at their router,
assuming that their inhouse email server worked fine with their previous
ISP.

If it is an outside server, then they are probably being blocked somewhere
in AT&T's network, probably as a measure to combat spam, if they are setup
with a dynamic "residential" class DSL. Which means a lengthy telephone
conversation with AT&T's Level 1 support people, before being pushed to
Level 2 for another lengthy conversation before possibly being given a
number to their network routing team for another lengthy conversation that
should provide some resolution. 

	-Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Duane Brown
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:41 PM
> To: mug - discuss; MDLUG's main mailing list
> Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
> 
> My niece works for a company that is having problems with 
> their outbound business email. They need some help getting it 
> straightened out. I believe it is directly related to a 
> change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.
> 
> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an 
> error something like "communications error on port 25".
> 
> I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of 
> knowledge in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS 
> environment with less than a handful of machines. I'm 
> guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they can share the 
> connection.
> 
> I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.
> 
> If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll 
> forward your information to my niece.
> 
> I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put 
> them in touch with someone who can get this fixed with out 
> wasting their time.
> 
> Duane
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb  8 06:36:29 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 06:36:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare?
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716544F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20080208113514.5201DC0C8@impelind.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Ingles, Raymond
> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:47 AM
> To: Mdlug (E-mail)
> Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare?
> 
> I've got a problem with my Windows machine at work. Recently, it's 
> started locking up hard when running VMWare. (The reason we need 
> VMWare is pure Microsoft silliness - their own compilers are slightly 
> incompatible between versions, so we need different revs of the 
> compilers and libraries to work on different revs of our product.) By 
> "locking up hard" I mean the screen freezes, audio playback halts, and 
> nothing can be done but cutting the power and rebooting.
> The system is stable except when running VMWare.
>

	I had something similar happen under Linux while running VMWare
hosting a Windows Server 2003 VM. On a whim, I recompiled the VMWare
launcher, which you must do with every kernel upgrade otherwise VMWare will
refuse to launch, and the problem simply disappeared.

> 
>  I haven't been able to identify anything in particular causing the 
> problem. I've upgraded to a bigger disk recently, but I've uninstalled 
> and reinstalled VMWare Workstation 5 and 6, and started from scratch 
> with new VMWare machine images, and I still get the same lockups.
> 
>  I've heard that one can run a Windows install on a physical partition 
> from within VMWare. I'm trying to decide if I should shrink a 
> partition on this machine, install Linux, and run a couple of 
> instances of VMWare from within Linux - one for my day-to-day office 
> stuff (like Outlook), and one for compiling and development. I'd like 
> to keep the existing Windows stuff insofar as possible, just running 
> it from within VMWare on Linux. I strongly suspect that VMWare will be 
> more stable on Linux than XP. The machine is a 2GHz P4 with 2GB of 
> RAM, so I figure it won't have too much trouble handling the load.
> 

	On my laptop, I dual boot Windows XP Pro and Linux (OpenSuSe 10.3),
I noticed no real difference between the performance and stability of VMWare
under either host OS.

	I am unsure as to whether or not you will be able to run a Windows
Install on a physical partition. I can take a looksee on my laptop, I am
only using the free downloadable VMWare client, which may have limitations
precluding that ability.

	I do know that Windows Vista performance with VMWare is incredibly
lackluster. I was running the same Windows Server 2003 VM on a brand new
dual-core, 2GB or RAM higher end Dell workstation running Windows Vista and
the performance of VMWare was simply appaling. My laptop, which is nearly 5
years old, ran circles around the Vista machine with VMWare performance.

>
>  Does anyone have any experience with this? Any tips or gotchas or 
> warnings or suggestions?
> 

	I have heard that VMWare can hose the heck out of network drivers on
both Windows and Linux, if you setup the client to provide network
capability to the virtual machines. I never had a reason to have network
access for the VM I was running, so I am unable to verify this rumor. I
would look into that before running into networking with VMWare.

	-Rob



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb  8 06:46:51 2008
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:46:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
Message-ID: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
 & runs squid.   

I had it set up so that eth0 was internal, and eth1 was external.  The
 iptables example that I found that seemed to do what I wanted
 had them switched, so I switched them.   Now for some reason, if the
 internal network is working, I can't ping outside URLs.   I can change
 the default gateway to be the external route, and then I can ping outside
 URLs, but then the internal network stops working.    

Should it be easy to ping remote hosts on both the internal network and
 the outside?   Did switching the 2 nics somehow screw things up?   It
 worked before.   My only other choice is to completely reinstall linux
 it seems, then squid, then a kernel that I can recompile to support
 forwarding IP packets.   

I thought, if I can only add the right route(s) to my routing table, I
 can fix this.  I could switch the bindings on the nics back, but then the iptables nat doesn't work.

How does the kernel normally know which interface to use when you issue
 a ping, or an http get?   Can I have 2 default gateways?    Why does
 only 1 seem to work at a time?   Here's my routing table so far:
Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth0
192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth0
169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 eth1
default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth0
default         alpine11        0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth1





       Thanks for any help or insight
 anyone can offer.    Dean. 


From rborromeo at the5spot.com  Fri Feb  8 08:08:32 2008
From: rborromeo at the5spot.com (rborromeo at the5spot.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:08:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <11da01c86a53$b5449660$0300c80a@terzo>

You can't  have 2 default routes what you will have to do is costing of 
routes with route lookup tables.

Look at the man pages for  iproute2 it's pretty much baked into any modern 
distro it's been a while since I've done it and I think they've improved 
since I used it
so the verbage may not be the same anymore. I think it was something like 
this-

ip route add default equalize nexthop via gatewayip1 weight 1 dev eth2 
nexthop via gatewayip2 weight 1 dev eth1



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dean Durant" <mdlug at sbcglobal.net>
To: <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:46 AM
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?


>
> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
> & runs squid.
>
> I had it set up so that eth0 was internal, and eth1 was external.  The
> iptables example that I found that seemed to do what I wanted
> had them switched, so I switched them.   Now for some reason, if the
> internal network is working, I can't ping outside URLs.   I can change
> the default gateway to be the external route, and then I can ping outside
> URLs, but then the internal network stops working.
>
> Should it be easy to ping remote hosts on both the internal network and
> the outside?   Did switching the 2 nics somehow screw things up?   It
> worked before.   My only other choice is to completely reinstall linux
> it seems, then squid, then a kernel that I can recompile to support
> forwarding IP packets.
>
> I thought, if I can only add the right route(s) to my routing table, I
> can fix this.  I could switch the bindings on the nics back, but then the 
> iptables nat doesn't work.
>
> How does the kernel normally know which interface to use when you issue
> a ping, or an http get?   Can I have 2 default gateways?    Why does
> only 1 seem to work at a time?   Here's my routing table so far:
> Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use 
> Iface
> host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 
> eth1
> 10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 
> eth0
> 192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 
> eth1
> 10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 
> eth0
> 169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 
> eth1
> default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 
> eth0
> default         alpine11        0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 
> eth1
>
>
>
>
>
>       Thanks for any help or insight
> anyone can offer.    Dean.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From rrclark at rrclark.net  Fri Feb  8 08:32:03 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:32:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.00.0802080824510.8879@geek.private.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:

>
> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
> & runs squid.
>
> I had it set up so that eth0 was internal, and eth1 was external.  The
> iptables example that I found that seemed to do what I wanted
> had them switched, so I switched them.   Now for some reason, if the
> internal network is working, I can't ping outside URLs.   I can change
> the default gateway to be the external route, and then I can ping outside
> URLs, but then the internal network stops working.
>
> Should it be easy to ping remote hosts on both the internal network and
> the outside?   Did switching the 2 nics somehow screw things up?   It
> worked before.   My only other choice is to completely reinstall linux
> it seems, then squid, then a kernel that I can recompile to support
> forwarding IP packets.
>
> I thought, if I can only add the right route(s) to my routing table, I
> can fix this.  I could switch the bindings on the nics back, but then the iptables nat doesn't work.
>
> How does the kernel normally know which interface to use when you issue
> a ping, or an http get?   Can I have 2 default gateways?    Why does
> only 1 seem to work at a time?   Here's my routing table so far:
> Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
> host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth1
> 10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth0
> 192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth1
> 10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth0
> 169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 eth1
> default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth0
> default         alpine11        0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth1
>
>       Thanks for any help or insight
> anyone can offer.    Dean.

Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?

net.ipv4.ip_forward=1

Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set 
to 0, change it to 1.


From tmorris at ugs.com  Fri Feb  8 08:44:41 2008
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 07:44:41 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E204C315BE@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

...

 

---------------

Tim Morris

Systems Engineer

Siemens PLM Software Inc.

 



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  8 08:57:50 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:57:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare? - obviated
In-Reply-To: <20080208113514.5201DC0C8@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165453@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	I had something similar happen under Linux while running VMWare
> hosting a Windows Server 2003 VM. On a whim, I recompiled the VMWare
> launcher, which you must do with every kernel upgrade otherwise VMWare will
> refuse to launch, and the problem simply disappeared.

 This is Windows hosting Windows, though. I have a separate physical Linux box.

 I found a good reference on running Windows from a physical partition under
Linux:

 http://news.u32.net/articles/2006/07/18/running-vmware-on-a-physical-partition

 However, before I could implement it, I discovered what was causing the problem
with VMWare. I have a Radeon 7000 in the Windows box, with dual-monitor support.
One video card, two monitors. I've run VMWare before, plenty of times, without
trouble, but I noticed when I was experimenting that if I started up VMWare and
locked the screen, it would run all night. As soon as I came in in the morning
and unlocked the screen, within a few minutes - bang. Dead box.

 So I upgraded to the latest ATI drivers (had to install .NET for the config
utility, can you believe that?) and it's been running fine for about 40 hours
now. So it looks like I won't need to repartition and such now. At least, for
*this* problem.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                  (313) 227-2317

 "[T]he U.S. film industry, in the midst of the worst box-office slump in
   20 years, looks for possible explanations as to why Americans are not
    flocking to movie theaters. In a totally unrelated development, The
  Adventures of Sharkboy and Lavagirl opens nationwide, to be followed in
 coming months by The Dukes of Hazzard and Deuce Bigalow, European Gigolo."
                             - Dave Barry
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb  8 08:58:02 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:58:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47AC5FEA.40807@hotpop.com>

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>  & runs squid.   
> 
> I had it set up so that eth0 was internal, and eth1 was external.  The
>  iptables example that I found that seemed to do what I wanted
>  had them switched, so I switched them.   Now for some reason, if the
>  internal network is working, I can't ping outside URLs.   I can change
>  the default gateway to be the external route, and then I can ping outside
>  URLs, but then the internal network stops working.    
> 
> Should it be easy to ping remote hosts on both the internal network and
>  the outside?

Everything *should* be easy.

Whether it *IS* easy or not is another question.




From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb  8 09:48:00 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 09:48:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.00.0802080824510.8879@geek.private.rrclark.net>
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.0802080824510.8879@geek.private.rrclark.net>
Message-ID: <47AC6BA0.9070700@ameritech.net>

Rich Clark wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:
> 
>> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>> & runs squid.

>>SNIP> 

> Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?
> 
> net.ipv4.ip_forward=1
> 
> Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set 
> to 0, change it to 1.

Don't you need to reboot for this to have any effect? Or atleast restart
networking? That's my general understanding of the files under /etc/.

Isn't there a similar flag under /var, like /var/run/<something> that
can do this on the fly?


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Fri Feb  8 10:36:53 2008
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:36:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <47AC6BA0.9070700@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <C3D1E145.587AB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

After editing sysctl.conf, running sysctl -p will make the changes active.
Echoing the values into the appropriate files in /proc will have the same
effect.  

Also note that having more than one default gateway on a system can have
expected results.  A default gateway, as the name implies is a catchall.
Based on your setup, you should have two gateways defined: one to point at
your internal network (looks like 10.10.1.0/24) and your default gateway
should be the directroute.eda. entry from your routing table.  So something
like this:

Destination    Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth0
192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth0
169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       alpine11        255.255.255.0   UG    0      0        0 eth1
default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth0

The other thing to consider is that you do not even need a router for your
internal network if your entire internal network is flat (on the same
subnet).

Greg


On 2/8/08 9:48 AM, "Raymond McLaughlin" <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:

> Rich Clark wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>>> & runs squid.
> 
>>> SNIP> 
> 
>> Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?
>> 
>> net.ipv4.ip_forward=1
>> 
>> Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set
>> to 0, change it to 1.
> 
> Don't you need to reboot for this to have any effect? Or atleast restart
> networking? That's my general understanding of the files under /etc/.
> 
> Isn't there a similar flag under /var, like /var/run/<something> that
> can do this on the fly?
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb  7 22:27:19 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:27:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] Re: openSUSE Boxed Editions]
Message-ID: <47ABCC17.5020604@hotpop.com>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [opensuse] Re: openSUSE Boxed Editions
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:11:11 +0100
From: Hans Witvliet <hwit at a-domani.nl>
To: opensuse at opensuse.org
References: 
<33d293f80801121317p17debc65t9a6b13acbd37e18f at mail.gmail.com>	 
<47AA0FC7.2030702 at hotpop.com> <200802071354.04867.sh at suse.de>	 
<200802071451.36390.thomas.schraitle at suse.de> 
<47AB32A6.4050406 at dodin.org>

On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 17:32 +0100, jdd wrote:
> Thomas Schraitle a ?crit :
> 
> > documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of
> > minor importance for most. ;)
> 
> no, but it's almost impossible to fix a printed book :-) and the next 
> one is different, so fixing it is not possible either...
> 

Well, it depends....

Some time ago i send a bug report to the guys from QNX.
A lot of nice features were not working as extensively described in
their manuals....

A month later a got a update from Canada:
Not new software, but a new set of manuals in which they removed all the
pages I referenced.

One way of "resolving issues".




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb  8 12:24:03 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:24:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <C3D1E145.587AB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C3D1E145.587AB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <47AC9033.7090607@arb.net>

In the classic sense "Duel homed" would refer to both interfaces being 
world facing with world routable addresses - Like if you had one on DSL 
and the other on a cable modem with another provider. In your case, you 
appear to be talking about a gateway host between an inside non-world 
routable network (like 10.x.x.x) and the outside world.  If this is the 
case, Greg is describing what you need to do - one default route on your 
outside interface.

The first one of these I setup was on kernel 1.12.22 and you had to 
compile 1.12.1 and apply patches one by one to get to .22 . Oh the bad 
old days :-)
-dave

Wojtak, Greg wrote:

>After editing sysctl.conf, running sysctl -p will make the changes active.
>Echoing the values into the appropriate files in /proc will have the same
>effect.  
>
>Also note that having more than one default gateway on a system can have
>expected results.  A default gateway, as the name implies is a catchall.
>Based on your setup, you should have two gateways defined: one to point at
>your internal network (looks like 10.10.1.0/24) and your default gateway
>should be the directroute.eda. entry from your routing table.  So something
>like this:
>
>Destination    Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
>host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth1
>10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth0
>192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth1
>10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth0
>169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 eth1
>10.10.1.0       alpine11        255.255.255.0   UG    0      0        0 eth1
>default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth0
>
>The other thing to consider is that you do not even need a router for your
>internal network if your entire internal network is flat (on the same
>subnet).
>
>Greg
>
>
>On 2/8/08 9:48 AM, "Raymond McLaughlin" <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Rich Clark wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>>>>& runs squid.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>SNIP> 
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?
>>>
>>>net.ipv4.ip_forward=1
>>>
>>>Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set
>>>to 0, change it to 1.
>>>      
>>>
>>Don't you need to reboot for this to have any effect? Or atleast restart
>>networking? That's my general understanding of the files under /etc/.
>>
>>Isn't there a similar flag under /var, like /var/run/<something> that
>>can do this on the fly?
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From admin at linuxtechdaily.com  Fri Feb  8 12:36:59 2008
From: admin at linuxtechdaily.com (Rich Hughes)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:36:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
References: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47AC933B.4080703@linuxtechdaily.com>

AT&T probably blocks port 25. I have their U-verse service, and they do 
for that. They just need to switch to port 587. I use port 26.

Take care,
Rich H

Duane Brown wrote:
> My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound 
> business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I 
> believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.
>
> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error 
> something like "communications error on port 25".
>
> I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of knowledge 
> in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS environment with less than a 
> handful of machines. I'm guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they 
> can share the connection.
>
> I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.
>
> If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll forward your 
> information to my niece.
>
> I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put them in 
> touch with someone who can get this fixed with out wasting their time.
>
> Duane
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb  8 12:53:13 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:53:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <20080208113340.BE023C0C0@impelind.com>
References: <20080208113340.BE023C0C0@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47AC9709.3030109@arb.net>

If this is the case, be sure to get AT&T to setup your reverse DNS for 
your email server's IP address - you will have to have the forward DNS 
for this IP address setup already or they will not do the reverse. This 
will keep many of your messages from being blocked as "residential" 
(Bot-ed WIN spammer).

-dave

Robert Adkins wrote:

>Do they host their own internal Email server or do they access one outside
>of their building via an outside webhost?
>
>We utilize AT&T Business DSL, we host our own internal email server with all
>incoming/outgoing email on our own equipment. The business service includes
>5 outside IP Addresses that are on permanent lease to our account.
>
>The solution to the problem you describe depends upon how they send/receive
>email.
>
>If it is an inhouse email server, I would take a look at their router,
>assuming that their inhouse email server worked fine with their previous
>ISP.
>
>If it is an outside server, then they are probably being blocked somewhere
>in AT&T's network, probably as a measure to combat spam, if they are setup
>with a dynamic "residential" class DSL. Which means a lengthy telephone
>conversation with AT&T's Level 1 support people, before being pushed to
>Level 2 for another lengthy conversation before possibly being given a
>number to their network routing team for another lengthy conversation that
>should provide some resolution. 
>
>	-Rob
>
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
>>[mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Duane Brown
>>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:41 PM
>>To: mug - discuss; MDLUG's main mailing list
>>Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
>>
>>My niece works for a company that is having problems with 
>>their outbound business email. They need some help getting it 
>>straightened out. I believe it is directly related to a 
>>change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.
>>
>>They can receive email fine but when they send they get an 
>>error something like "communications error on port 25".
>>
>>I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of 
>>knowledge in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS 
>>environment with less than a handful of machines. I'm 
>>guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they can share the 
>>connection.
>>
>>I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.
>>
>>If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll 
>>forward your information to my niece.
>>
>>I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put 
>>them in touch with someone who can get this fixed with out 
>>wasting their time.
>>
>>Duane
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Fri Feb  8 15:45:23 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:45:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <47AC6BA0.9070700@ameritech.net>
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.0802080824510.8879@geek.private.rrclark.net>
	<47AC6BA0.9070700@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.00.0802081540580.11772@geek.private.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:

> Rich Clark wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>>> & runs squid.
>
>>> SNIP>
>
>> Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?
>>
>> net.ipv4.ip_forward=1
>>
>> Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set
>> to 0, change it to 1.
>
> Don't you need to reboot for this to have any effect? Or atleast restart
> networking? That's my general understanding of the files under /etc/.

Execute as root 'sysctl -p /etc/sysctl.conf' for immediate changes to take 
effect. If you do change or add the line to sysctl.conf, they become 
permanent.

> Isn't there a similar flag under /var, like /var/run/<something> that
> can do this on the fly?

Nah, easiest I know if is as above.


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb  8 20:34:39 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:34:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Meeting Saturday (Tomorrow) Pat Bake presenter
Message-ID: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>

MDLUGers,

MDLUG meeting 12:30 tomorrow. See website <mdlug.org> for location details.

Pat Baker has stepped into the breach and will be doing a presentation
on openVPN and, time allowing tor.

We hope to see you there.

Raymond McLaughlin
President MDLUG


From jjsalens at typotech.net  Fri Feb  8 20:34:14 2008
From: jjsalens at typotech.net (Jesse J. Salens)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:34:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
References: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47AD0316.2080600@typotech.net>

If they use an outside mail service, such as a hosting provider, AT&T 
blocks port 25 by default. You can request to be unblocked through their 
abuse reporting page:

http://helpme.att.net/servabuse.php

Just select "**Opt out port 25" from the Abuse type.

-Jesse

Duane Brown wrote:
> My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound 
> business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I 
> believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.
>
> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error 
> something like "communications error on port 25".
>
> I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of knowledge 
> in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS environment with less than a 
> handful of machines. I'm guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they 
> can share the connection.
>
> I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.
>
> If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll forward your 
> information to my niece.
>
> I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put them in 
> touch with someone who can get this fixed with out wasting their time.
>
> Duane
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Sat Feb  9 09:23:29 2008
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:23:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
Message-ID: <4292224.1202567009750.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hi,

I am trying to change the resolution in my laptop display (SuSE 10.1 on Dell Latitude D820). When I open sax2, I see two display information. On the top it says

Nvidia GEForce GO 7400

Monitor-> LCD 1024x768&70HZ

with 'Options' and 'Change' button. The Change button allows for changing resolution and frequency, Below that is a pull down for 'Resolution' and 'Colors' (currently set at 1280x800 and 16M). I changed the one at the bottom for a different resolution. What is the one at top? How do I find out / change the current refresh frequency?

When I connect this laptop to a HD TV, I get hazy characters. I presume this has something to do with the current refresh rate

Thanks for any help.

Raj

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sat Feb  9 09:43:04 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:43:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu and Run levels
Message-ID: <47ADBBF8.5030201@ameritech.net>

A couple of months age there was some discussion on another list about
Ubuntu and run level control. I complained that run level 3 did give
just a text login like I thought it should. There were several
replies which, on closer examination, were not completely correct.

One of my findings was that you could select runlevel 3 at boot and the
system would still boot as it always did. *Even after you had completely
deleted the directory /etc/rc3.d!* I was gathering more such findings
for a more detailed post, and this got pushed to the back burner...

This article <http://www.linux.com/feature/125977> explains a lot.
It seems that with Feisty Fawn Ubuntu has started to transition away
from the SysV init scheme to something called "initng". Ah! Something
new to learn. Sounds interesting. I wonder if I'll like it.

Raymond McLaughlin


From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb  9 11:33:32 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 11:33:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Meeting Saturday (Tomorrow) Pat Bake presenter
In-Reply-To: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> MDLUGers,
>
> MDLUG meeting 12:30 tomorrow. See website <mdlug.org> for location details.
>
> Pat Baker has stepped into the breach and will be doing a presentation
> on openVPN and, time allowing tor.
>
> We hope to see you there.
>
>
>   

Doesn't look like I;m making it this month. 

Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
the web. 

So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
any weird distro in my folder.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From carl at carltm.com  Sat Feb  9 13:04:42 2008
From: carl at carltm.com (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:04:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] checking settings on domains
Message-ID: <58045.70.136.184.6.1202580282.squirrel@www.carltm.com>

There is a new website that lets you check the settings for
a domain.  The URL is <http://www.intodns.com>.  Just fill
in the domain name, click "Report" and hope to see lots of
green check marks.

c





From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 14:32:14 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:32:14 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu and Run levels
In-Reply-To: <47ADBBF8.5030201@ameritech.net>
References: <47ADBBF8.5030201@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802091132y4391e105q1c57fd56519a06bc@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 6:43 AM, Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
> This article <http://www.linux.com/feature/125977> explains a lot.
> It seems that with Feisty Fawn Ubuntu has started to transition away
> from the SysV init scheme to something called "initng". Ah! Something
> new to learn. Sounds interesting. I wonder if I'll like it.

It's called 'upstart', iirc...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  9 14:33:53 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:33:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you have
	a static IP address)
Message-ID: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"

register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that is not the case.

Is there a place that I can register my ".com"? 

David


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb  9 14:36:54 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 14:36:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] checking settings on domains
In-Reply-To: <58045.70.136.184.6.1202580282.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
References: <58045.70.136.184.6.1202580282.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
Message-ID: <47AE00D6.9020104@arb.net>

Thanks Carl - Good find.

-dave

Carl T. Miller wrote:

>There is a new website that lets you check the settings for
>a domain.  The URL is <http://www.intodns.com>.  Just fill
>in the domain name, click "Report" and hope to see lots of
>green check marks.
>
>c
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb  9 14:40:06 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 14:40:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you
 have	a static IP address)
In-Reply-To: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47AE0196.2030801@arb.net>

Be careful about the fine print for a "free" service. ALL registrars pay 
something to register a domain. I've know some people who thought they 
are getting a nearly free registration and it was a marketing scam.

-dave

David Lane wrote:

>I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"
>
>register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that is not the case.
>
>Is there a place that I can register my ".com"? 
>
>David
>
>
>      ____________________________________________________________________________________
>Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 15:21:51 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:21:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Free Tax service
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091221y409c31ddx6ae551c41e6945d0@mail.gmail.com>

Just discovered this free TurboTax filing option from Intuit:
http://turbotax.intuit.com/system_requirements_check.jhtml?productid=512

I didn't complete the filing but it seems to work with Firefox on
Linux in spite of the warning.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 15:33:13 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:33:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you
	have a static IP address)
In-Reply-To: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091233n6f49b0a8yb7a324b1815dd40a@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 2:33 PM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"
>
> register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that is not the case.
>
> Is there a place that I can register my ".com"?

Some useful info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_name_registrar

Probably no free ones available.  At a minimum it would be bundled
with other services you would have to pay for.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 15:58:35 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:58:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare?
In-Reply-To: <20080208113514.5201DC0C8@impelind.com>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716544F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<20080208113514.5201DC0C8@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091258h7f2f9cfel8a204ff57b51747b@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 8, 2008 6:36 AM, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>         I have heard that VMWare can hose the heck out of network drivers on
> both Windows and Linux, if you setup the client to provide network
> capability to the virtual machines. I never had a reason to have network
> access for the VM I was running, so I am unable to verify this rumor. I
> would look into that before running into networking with VMWare.

I've always had networking for XP in VMware Player.  It's been quite a
while since I've had any problems with it.  Usually it's caused by
major network reconfiguration but you just have to run
/usr/bin/vmware-config-network.pl to fix it.  On my laptop I switch
between various networks all the time and don't have any problems
under Ubuntu.


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb  9 15:59:15 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Sat,  9 Feb 2008 15:59:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
In-Reply-To: <4292224.1202567009750.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	(rkannan@peoplepc.com)
References: <4292224.1202567009750.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20080209205915.60F5115EA04@starfox.local>

Raj,

> ... When I open sax2, I see two display information.
> On the top it says with 'Options' and 'Change' button.
> The Change button allows for changing resolution and frequency, ...

<IIRC>
I believe this is your current graphics card and monitor selection.
You can enable/disable features of your graphics card.
You can choose from among multiple monitors (if you have more than one).
</IIRC>

> Below that is a pull down for 'Resolution' and 'Colors' ...

These are the modelines found by SaX2,
from which you can choose a default.
I don't believe SaX2 providees support for multiple modes.

> ... How do I find out / change the current refresh frequency?

Interpret the report from SaX2 (top window) as
   <width>x<height>&<frequency>

> Monitor-> LCD 1024x768&70HZ

1024 pixels wide by 768 pixels high by 70Hz refresh frequency

> When I connect this laptop to a HD TV, I get hazy characters.
> I presume this has something to do with the current refresh rate

Probably.  You need to match your TV requirements.
See the TV manual for the resolution and refresh rate requirements.

If you are not using choked cable,
you may also be picking up interference.

If you are using the EPAL (a.k.a. NTSC, TV) output from your laptop,
be advised that the analog modulators and demodulators are usually
of low quality, especially trying to operate at other than 700x525x60Hz.

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Bob

  "I think computer viruses should count as life.
   I think it says something about human nature,
   that the only form of life we have created so far,
   is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image."
     -- Stephen Hawking



From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 16:26:22 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 16:26:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you
	have a static IP address)
In-Reply-To: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802091326k11f33730h26b21c984224c11e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 2:33 PM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"
>
> register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that
> is not the case.
>
> Is there a place that I can register my ".com"?
>
> David
>
>
>
>  ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


I've used ZoneEdit for years without having to pay anything and have had
zero problems with them.  They're great if you only have a couple of domain
names.

http://www.zoneedit.com


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 16:29:54 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 16:29:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Free Tax service
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802091221y409c31ddx6ae551c41e6945d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90802091221y409c31ddx6ae551c41e6945d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802091329u1bedec8aq526a9ae3a99ee11e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just discovered this free TurboTax filing option from Intuit:
> http://turbotax.intuit.com/system_requirements_check.jhtml?productid=512
>
> I didn't complete the filing but it seems to work with Firefox on
> Linux in spite of the warning.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

It works just fine.  My taxes are filed through TurboTax using Firefox on
Linux.

Clinton


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Sat Feb  9 18:02:27 2008
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 18:02:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
Message-ID: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Thanks Dr. Meier but...
-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Meier <list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net>
>Sent: Feb 9, 2008 3:59 PM
>To: mdlug at mdlug.org
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] sax2 question
>
>Raj,
>
>> ... When I open sax2, I see two display information.
>> On the top it says with 'Options' and 'Change' button.
>> The Change button allows for changing resolution and frequency, ...
>
><IIRC>
>I believe this is your current graphics card and monitor selection.
>You can enable/disable features of your graphics card.
>You can choose from among multiple monitors (if you have more than one).
></IIRC>
>
>> Below that is a pull down for 'Resolution' and 'Colors' ...
>
>These are the modelines found by SaX2,
>from which you can choose a default.
>I don't believe SaX2 providees support for multiple modes.
>
>> ... How do I find out / change the current refresh frequency?
>
>Interpret the report from SaX2 (top window) as
>   <width>x<height>&<frequency>
>
>> Monitor-> LCD 1024x768&70HZ
>
>1024 pixels wide by 768 pixels high by 70Hz refresh frequency

I got that much but why are there two sets of values the one at the top says 1024x763 at 60 and the pull down at the bottom says 1280x800. When I changed the pne at the bottom, it changed the resolution of my display. So what is the one at the top.
>
>> When I connect this laptop to a HD TV, I get hazy characters.
>> I presume this has something to do with the current refresh rate
>
>Probably.  You need to match your TV requirements.
>See the TV manual for the resolution and refresh rate requirements.
>
>If you are not using choked cable,
>you may also be picking up interference.

My TV apparently can go as high as 1024x768 at 70 HZ. When I set this in Windoze the display was fine but the Linux display is hazy (not sharp) at any  resolution.

>
>If you are using the EPAL (a.k.a. NTSC, TV) output from your laptop,
>be advised that the analog modulators and demodulators are usually
>of low quality, especially trying to operate at other than 700x525x60Hz.

I have a VGA (15 pin) input in my TV which is what I am connecting to.
>
>Hopefully helpful,
>-- 
>Bob
>
>  "I think computer viruses should count as life.
>   I think it says something about human nature,
>   that the only form of life we have created so far,
>   is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image."
>     -- Stephen Hawking
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 18:47:53 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:47:53 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
In-Reply-To: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802091547y1b473dcev122c43b09a2fdbaa@mail.gmail.com>

http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Xorg_HDTV
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sat Feb  9 19:20:40 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:20:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>

Garry Stahl wrote:

> Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
> the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
> the web. 
> 
> So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
> any weird distro in my folder.

Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sat Feb  9 19:24:18 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:24:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu and Run levels
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802091132y4391e105q1c57fd56519a06bc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47ADBBF8.5030201@ameritech.net>
	<fe37588d0802091132y4391e105q1c57fd56519a06bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AE4432.9010204@ameritech.net>

Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 6:43 AM, Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
>> This article <http://www.linux.com/feature/125977> explains a lot.
>> It seems that with Feisty Fawn Ubuntu has started to transition away
>> from the SysV init scheme to something called "initng". Ah! Something
>> new to learn. Sounds interesting. I wonder if I'll like it.
> 
> It's called 'upstart', iirc...

You are correct, initng was for Debian. I quickly looked back at the
article while posting and picked out the wrong alternative.


From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Sat Feb  9 19:45:48 2008
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:45:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>

On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 19:20 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Garry Stahl wrote:
> 
> > Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
> > the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
> > the web. 
> > 
> > So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
> > any weird distro in my folder.
> 
> Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.
> _______________________________________________

CentOS - http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=15

Knoppix - http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 21:13:08 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:13:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 7:45 PM, Mathew Enders <mathew.enders at prodigy.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 19:20 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> > Garry Stahl wrote:
> >
> > > Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
> > > the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
> > > the web.
> > >
> > > So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
> > > any weird distro in my folder.
> >
> > Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.
> > _______________________________________________
>
> CentOS - http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=15
>
> Knoppix - http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
>

Don't forget Gentoo.  Do you think Darth Beemer could handle producing
an up-to-date version on the fly by downloading the sources,
compiling, and writing the bins to the CD/DVD in real-time?  :D


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb  9 21:46:14 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Sat,  9 Feb 2008 21:46:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
In-Reply-To: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	(rkannan@peoplepc.com)
References: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20080210024614.5A885127C8C@starfox.local>

R,

I'm sorry I was too concise before.

X encapsulates timing information, resolution, refresh frequency,
and other information in a data structure called a Modeline.
Each Modeline is addressed by a name, called a Mode,
which is usually the <width>x<height>@<frequency>.

xorg.conf specifications are grouped into named sections.
The Monitor section(s) contain information about the attached
video hardware, including the Modes it supports.
The Device section(s) contain information about the installed
graphics cards, including Modes it supports (timing limits).
The Screen sections(s) contain information about the
mapping of Devices to Monitors, run-time selectable Modes, ...

Online registries hold prewritten sections addressed by
ModelName and Driver respectively.
For generic monitors, the ModelName is usually the highest supported Mode.
For generic cards, the Driver is usually the chipset and key features.

SaX2 comes with a directory /usr/share/sax/api/data from
which it can unpack a large registry of Monitor and Device
sections for popular graphics cards and video display hardware.



To display properly, a Mode must be simultaneously compatible
with all your graphics cards and all your monitors is use.

There are usually several (typically ~20) Modes that will work.

Most people only want a "full-size", and "zoom" Mode.
Many laptop users want a few Modes compatible with VGA projectors
they use.

In xorg.conf, you specify a default "full-size" Mode and
your chosen alternate Modes.
At run-time, you can usually cycle through these alternate Modes
without restarting your session using \M-\C-\N+ (alt-ctl-numpad+).

See xorg.conf(5) for further details.



> ... why are there two sets of values [displayed by SaX2]
> the one at the top says 1024x763 at 60 and the pull down
> at the bottom says 1280x800.

The Card: Driver identifies the Device section that SaX2 will save.

The Monitor: ModelName identifies the Device section that SaX2 will save.

When you start SaX2, the Card: Driver and Monitor: ModelName are
discovered from your xorg.conf file, probing the monitor and
graphics card, from the registry, ...
These represent SaX2's recommended safe settings.
The Monitor: ModelName is usually generic, the current Mode.

See /usr/share/doc/packages/sax2/sax.pdf for further details.



> When I changed the [one] at the bottom,
> it changed the resolution of my display.

The Properties at the bottom are the Modes that SaX2 thinks
might be compatible with your monitor and graphics card.
They were discovered in your xorg.conf, SaX2's data, ...
and SaX2 found no reason to eliminate them.

Each time you select a Resolution and Colors, type [OK],
test, and [Save], SaX2 adds that Mode to the list of usable
Modes in the Screen section that SaX2 will save.
When SaX2 adds a Mode, it usually removes Modes with higher resolution.
Most people save Modes in increasing resolution order.

See /usr/share/doc/packages/sax2/sax.pdf for details.



> So what is the one at the top[?]

  o Monitor section selected that SaX2 will write

  and also
  o at startup, SaX2's recommendation
  o at startup, usually current default (full-size) resolution
  o menu for users with multiple monitors
  o usually the X startup Mode that SaX2 will write

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Bob

  "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well."
     -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery



From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb  9 22:49:35 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:49:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AE744F.3030802@comcast.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 7:45 PM, Mathew Enders <mathew.enders at prodigy.net> wrote:
>   
>> On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 19:20 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
>>     
>>> Garry Stahl wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
>>>> the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
>>>> the web.
>>>>
>>>> So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
>>>> any weird distro in my folder.
>>>>         
>>> Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>       
>> CentOS - http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=15
>>
>> Knoppix - http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
>>
>>     
>
> Don't forget Gentoo.  Do you think Darth Beemer could handle producing
> an up-to-date version on the fly by downloading the sources,
> compiling, and writing the bins to the CD/DVD in real-time?  :D
>   

Let me get a little more ram and you can set it up.  It's a 1.8 gig
processor with currently 320 meg of ram.  1 gig max.  (Ddram 2100 BTW.) 
As to download on the fly we are talking the school network.  I don't
think so.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 22:59:27 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 22:59:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47AE744F.3030802@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AE744F.3030802@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091959k33dd69a9kce0a453cfea3c7ae@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 10:49 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Let me get a little more ram and you can set it up.  It's a 1.8 gig
> processor with currently 320 meg of ram.  1 gig max.  (Ddram 2100 BTW.)
> As to download on the fly we are talking the school network.  I don't
> think so.

I was joking.  To compile on the fly would require a cluster running distcc.


From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Feb  9 23:40:09 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 23:40:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>

On Feb 9, 2008 7:45 PM, Mathew Enders <mathew.enders at prodigy.net> wrote:
>>> Garry Stahl wrote:
>>>> So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,

"Fedora Core" is no more. It's called just "Fedora" now, since version 7.

>>> Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.
>>
>> CentOS - http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=15

CentOS is definitely worth checking out. I just installed the x86_64
version of CentOS 5.1 on my new AMD64-based mobo, and it's been great.

Slackware is another one to try. I've got 12.0 on a spare machine and
it seems pretty good.

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 23:59:30 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 23:59:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 11:40 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> "Fedora Core" is no more. It's called just "Fedora" now, since version 7.
>
> CentOS is definitely worth checking out. I just installed the x86_64
> version of CentOS 5.1 on my new AMD64-based mobo, and it's been great.
>
> Slackware is another one to try. I've got 12.0 on a spare machine and
> it seems pretty good.

Puppy is good for really old systems:
http://www.puppylinux.org/user/downloads.php


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 03:20:56 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 03:20:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080210031245.0289a290@pop.gmail.com>

     At the meeting I was told that the daemon controlling the sound 
card was most likely the
culprit in videos not playing sound. So I went looking for it in the 
Services GUI, and can't
find anything which could be that sound daemon. How do I find exactly 
which one to turn off?

     While we're at it, I've got firefox-2.0.0.12.tar.gz. There's a 
readme.txt, which refers me to
the Firefox download site. Clicking a link labeled "installation 
instructions" sends me to the
middle of that web page where some issues are discussed, but where no 
actual installation
instructions can be found. How does one install this tarball?

-----

   - Drew.



From carl at carltm.com  Sun Feb 10 09:18:16 2008
From: carl at carltm.com (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:18:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080210031245.0289a290@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080210031245.0289a290@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21361.216.144.215.245.1202653096.squirrel@www.carltm.com>

Drew wrote:
>      At the meeting I was told that the daemon controlling the sound
> card was most likely the
> culprit in videos not playing sound. So I went looking for it in the
> Services GUI, and can't
> find anything which could be that sound daemon. How do I find exactly
> which one to turn off?

Drew, check out this picture of the various programs available to
process sound in Linux.

<http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/linuxaudio.png>

ESD and aRts are the two most common daemons, so check for them
first.  Next try running ps aux | cut -c66- > my_list.  Remove
everything from the list that you know isn't sound related and
look for names from linuxaudio.png.  If you still don't find it,
you might need to do a Google search for each unknown process.

c




From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 14:22:24 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:22:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MOFO (MOWFO) Mondays
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802101122y14f7dec7wb19869885684d0ce@mail.gmail.com>

There seemed to be some interest in this at yesterday's meeting, so
I'm posting it now.

Our SF fandom group, MOFO, meets each Monday at 8 p.m.  We alternate
between the Redford Grill (tomorrow's meeting) located on the
south-west corner of Beech-Daly and Five Mile Road and the Ram's Horn
(next week's meeting) on Dequindre just south of 13 Mile Road.

The con chair and several ConCom members of Penguicon attend on a
regular basis.  It's not ALL about science fiction, though it is a
focus -- we just have fun in general.  On a regular basis, we organize
a group to go to the Redford Theatre on Lahser north of Grand River --
I expect we will have a bunch at "The Blues Brothers" showing coming
soon.  We also have an entertaining Yahoo! Group.

MOWFO = Macomb-Oakland-Wayne Fandom Organization / MOFO = Michigan
Open Fandom Organization -- same group -- it's a long story...

~~ Michael Rudas


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 10 15:19:04 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:19:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
Message-ID: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>

Hello Everyone,
I just got my new (factory refurb) Thinkpad T61 and I allready have
problems. <sigh> It seems the new machines come with a hidden partition
that has a factory image on it that you can then use to reload the
original os. There are lots of how to's regarding leaving that
functionality in place and still have Linux work. I would like to
reclaim that space; 7GB in this case; to use. 
	Not knowing any of this, I loaded openSUSE 10.3 not really paying any
attention to the amount of disk space available. I simply partitioned
the available space, more than I've ever had. When it came time to boot
into the fresh install I got a "operating system not found". So I found
I hosed my rescue image; no big deal; but I still had a hidden partition
as well.
	I've gotten into the rescue system using openSUSE 10.3 dvd. I found the
disk label using fdisk -l, then ran fdisk /dev/sda. I deleted all
partitions from there with d, verified that with p which reports a 100GB
disk. Then used w to save and exit. Then I started the openSUSE install
again but when it came to the partitioning I still saw only 93GB
available.  I went back in with the rescue system to verify that I
indeed had saved the changes to the table and I saw a 100GB hd. Okay, so
then I found out about the hidden part. So I read more about GRUB and I
can unhide what is still hidden but I need to know what it's called.
That's where I am right now. I can't seem to get any further. I can't
seem to figure out how to find out what this hidden ?partition? is
called to unhide it so I can delete it. 
	I allready have XP disks on the way from Lenovo so I can then load it
into VMWare, and I still have XP disks and valid COA's from my other
boxes. I would really rather have the space! Any idea's?

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 10 15:42:34 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:42:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>

You can enter "expert" option with the SuSE install and have full 
control of the partition - that is how I would do it. It will still 
offer you suggestions in expert mode.

If you don't like that option, some times it is just quicker to boot 
with another OS boot disk and partition the entire drive as one and bail 
on the install after the partition table was written. Do you have 
another OS on disk ? 


-dave

Peter Bart wrote:

>Hello Everyone,
>I just got my new (factory refurb) Thinkpad T61 and I allready have
>problems. <sigh> It seems the new machines come with a hidden partition
>that has a factory image on it that you can then use to reload the
>original os. There are lots of how to's regarding leaving that
>functionality in place and still have Linux work. I would like to
>reclaim that space; 7GB in this case; to use. 
>	Not knowing any of this, I loaded openSUSE 10.3 not really paying any
>attention to the amount of disk space available. I simply partitioned
>the available space, more than I've ever had. When it came time to boot
>into the fresh install I got a "operating system not found". So I found
>I hosed my rescue image; no big deal; but I still had a hidden partition
>as well.
>	I've gotten into the rescue system using openSUSE 10.3 dvd. I found the
>disk label using fdisk -l, then ran fdisk /dev/sda. I deleted all
>partitions from there with d, verified that with p which reports a 100GB
>disk. Then used w to save and exit. Then I started the openSUSE install
>again but when it came to the partitioning I still saw only 93GB
>available.  I went back in with the rescue system to verify that I
>indeed had saved the changes to the table and I saw a 100GB hd. Okay, so
>then I found out about the hidden part. So I read more about GRUB and I
>can unhide what is still hidden but I need to know what it's called.
>That's where I am right now. I can't seem to get any further. I can't
>seem to figure out how to find out what this hidden ?partition? is
>called to unhide it so I can delete it. 
>	I allready have XP disks on the way from Lenovo so I can then load it
>into VMWare, and I still have XP disks and valid COA's from my other
>boxes. I would really rather have the space! Any idea's?
>
>Best Regards,
>  
>


From gib at juno.com  Sun Feb 10 16:16:02 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:16:02 GMT
Subject: [mdlug]  MOFO (MOWFO) Mondays
Message-ID: <20080210.161602.21829.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com>


Can you provide links to a web site or to the Yahoo group?

-- "Michael Rudas" <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
There seemed to be some interest in this at yesterday's meeting, so
I'm posting it now.

Our SF fandom group, MOFO, meets each Monday at 8 p.m.  We alternate
between the Redford Grill (tomorrow's meeting) located on the
south-west corner of Beech-Daly and Five Mile Road and the Ram's Horn
(next week's meeting) on Dequindre just south of 13 Mile Road.

The con chair and several ConCom members of Penguicon attend on a
regular basis.  It's not ALL about science fiction, though it is a
focus -- we just have fun in general.  On a regular basis, we organize
a group to go to the Redford Theatre on Lahser north of Grand River --
I expect we will have a bunch at "The Blues Brothers" showing coming
soon.  We also have an entertaining Yahoo! Group.

MOWFO = Macomb-Oakland-Wayne Fandom Organization / MOFO = Michigan
Open Fandom Organization -- same group -- it's a long story...

~~ Michael Rudas
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_____________________________________________________________
Click to find local singles for dating, romance and fun.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iif6R6BaPccu2DxkwRLszp3B2wXq6Atf9aaK7NPtUBO3aoMVO/




From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 10 16:26:07 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:26:07 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
Message-ID: <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:42:34 -0500
Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:

> You can enter "expert" option with the SuSE install and have full 
> control of the partition - that is how I would do it. It will still 
> offer you suggestions in expert mode.
> 
> If you don't like that option, some times it is just quicker to boot 
> with another OS boot disk and partition the entire drive as one and
> bail on the install after the partition table was written. Do you
> have another OS on disk ? 

	The expert option still has the same results, missing 7GB.
Same with any other OS.  I'm trying  to use fdisk to partition it now.

-- 
Peter The Plumber sm on the Road


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 10 16:48:00 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:48:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>  <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
Message-ID: <1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>


On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 16:26 -0500, Peter Bart wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:42:34 -0500
> Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
> 
> > You can enter "expert" option with the SuSE install and have full 
> > control of the partition - that is how I would do it. It will still 
> > offer you suggestions in expert mode.
> > 
> > If you don't like that option, some times it is just quicker to boot 
> > with another OS boot disk and partition the entire drive as one and
> > bail on the install after the partition table was written. Do you
> > have another OS on disk ? 
> 
> 	The expert option still has the same results, missing 7GB.
> Same with any other OS.  I'm trying  to use fdisk to partition it now.

	Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 17:44:57 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:44:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MOFO (MOWFO) Mondays
In-Reply-To: <20080210.161602.21829.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080210.161602.21829.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802101444i48577c40xf03a7285dba7109f@mail.gmail.com>

--- gib at juno.com wrote:

> --- "Michael Rudas" wrote:
>> Our SF fandom group, MOFO, meets each Monday at 8 p.m.  We alternate
>> between the Redford Grill (tomorrow's meeting) located on the
>> south-west corner of Beech-Daly and Five Mile Road and the Ram's Horn
>> (next week's meeting) on Dequindre just south of 13 Mile Road.

> Can you provide links to a web site or to the Yahoo group?

MOFO: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MOWFO>

My computer-club Group (OPCC): <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/opcc>

My Protopage (with Linux and F/OSS links prominent):
http://www.tinyurl.com/yk67hy

~~ Mikey


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 17:45:53 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:45:53 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802101445p272d827ex5fa308a700d27135@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 10, 2008 1:48 PM, Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net> wrote:
>         Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?

There is an option in many laptop BIOS to disable the hidden recovery
space made unavailable by certain implementations.  Look around.  I
think that is the answer to your question...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 18:10:55 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:10:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802101510r34c155e4ub2bdf15028411676@mail.gmail.com>

--- Peter Bart wrote:

> >       The expert option still has the same results, missing 7GB.
> > Same with any other OS.  I'm trying  to use fdisk to partition it now.
>         Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?

Have you tried blowing away the boot sector?  I use MBRWiz:
<http://www.mbrwizard.com> -- it can be used with a DOS boot-disk or
Linux.

~~ Mikey


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sun Feb 10 19:54:16 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:54:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>

Peter Bart wrote:

> 	Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?
> 
> Best Regards,

Before you knock yourself out looking for a phantom partition, have you
considered that sometimes
  100GB = 100*1000*1000*1000 = 100,000,000,000B
and some times
   93GB =  93*1024*1024*1024 =  99,857,989,632B
which rounds to 99.9GB or 100GB when counted the first way?



From jjsalens at typotech.net  Sun Feb 10 20:28:32 2008
From: jjsalens at typotech.net (Jesse J. Salens)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:28:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802101445p272d827ex5fa308a700d27135@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<fe37588d0802101445p272d827ex5fa308a700d27135@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AFA4C0.2070500@typotech.net>



Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2008 1:48 PM, Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net> wrote:
>   
>>         Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
>> last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
>> found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
>> allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
>> available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?
>>     
>
> There is an option in many laptop BIOS to disable the hidden recovery
> space made unavailable by certain implementations.  Look around.  I
> think that is the answer to your question...
>   

I had a Z60m model and there was definitely an option to disabled the 
recovery partition in the bios. I don't remember the exact steps, but 
this is likely where you need to look prior to partitioning.

Jesse


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 10 20:33:12 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:33:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>

This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:

http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml

Better patch your machines, pronto!

Michael


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 10 20:42:53 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:42:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>

Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto 
update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now 
working on mine.

-dave

Michael Corral wrote:

>This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
>
>http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml
>
>Better patch your machines, pronto!
>
>Michael
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 10 20:53:24 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:53:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
> Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
> update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
> working on mine.

What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
Yikes!

Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
1. Download <http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
4. Try do do some root stuff.

Michael

>> This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
>>
>> http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml


From jjsalens at typotech.net  Sun Feb 10 21:45:03 2008
From: jjsalens at typotech.net (Jesse J. Salens)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:45:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47AFB6AF.8080402@typotech.net>

7

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
>   
>> Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
>> update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
>> working on mine.
>>     
>
> What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
> At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
> get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
> I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
> Yikes!
>
> Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
> 1. Download <http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
> 2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
> 3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
> 4. Try do do some root stuff.
>
> Michael
>
>   
>>> This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
>>>
>>> http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml
>>>       
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

It didn't work on my Fedora 8 box the first time, just caused a kernel 
oops and syslogd spit up on my screen. The second time I compiled and 
ran it, I was given a root prompt.

-Jesse


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 21:48:13 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:48:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
wrote:

> This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
>
> http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml
>
> Better patch your machines, pronto!
>
> Michael
>


I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter has
to do a couple of things first:

1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your machine
remotely.

If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've got problems.

Just an observation,
Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 10 21:52:07 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:52:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47AFB6AF.8080402@typotech.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFB6AF.8080402@typotech.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102148460.5717@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-10, Monsieur Jesse J. Salens a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
>> 1. Download <http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
>> 2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
>> 3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
>> 4. Try to do some root stuff.
>
> It didn't work on my Fedora 8 box the first time, just caused a kernel
> oops and syslogd spit up on my screen. The second time I compiled and
> ran it, I was given a root prompt.

Yeah, there have been reports of that exploit having different effects,
from kernel oops to system crashes to root prompts, on various distros
with various kernels. None of the effects are good. :(

Michael


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 21:53:30 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:53:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
wrote:

> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
> > Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
> > update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
> > working on mine.
>
> What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
> At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
> get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
> I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
> Yikes!
>
> Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
> 1. Download <
> http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
> 2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
> 3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
> 4. Try do do some root stuff.
>

I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess that's a
good thing?

(running Gentoo stable)

Clinton


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 10 21:56:42 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:56:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102152470.5796@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-10, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter has
> to do a couple of things first:
>
> 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
> machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
> 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your machine
> remotely.
>
> If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've got problems.

This is a *local* root exploit. I take it you didn't actually read the
link I gave. ;)

There *are* legitimate multi-user Linux machines out there, by the way.

Michael


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 22:07:44 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:07:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102152470.5796@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102152470.5796@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802101907t4f24cc3bmf535fd67642be351@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
wrote:

> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> > I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter
> has
> > to do a couple of things first:
> >
> > 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
> > machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
> > 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your
> machine
> > remotely.
> >
> > If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've got
> problems.
>
> This is a *local* root exploit. I take it you didn't actually read the
> link I gave. ;)
>
> There *are* legitimate multi-user Linux machines out there, by the way.
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


You gave a slashdot link, where RTFA isn't required!  :)

I've tried two different systems using the instructions provided in another
message:  my Gentoo desktop and my Debian VPS server.  Slashdot's link to
proof of concept code won't compile on either system, and the concept code
provided in another message compiles on my Debian VPS but doesn't work.
Kind of a bummer I guess, I still haven't gotten my hands on a working Linux
exploit so that I can fully understand and learn how it works.

I used to do that with boot and .exe viruses back in the day.   Figuring out
the assembly was a challenge yet fun.

Clinton


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 10 22:08:22 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:08:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net> <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>


On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 19:54 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> > 	Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> > last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> > found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> > allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> > available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> 
> Before you knock yourself out looking for a phantom partition, have you
> considered that sometimes
>   100GB = 100*1000*1000*1000 = 100,000,000,000B
> and some times
>    93GB =  93*1024*1024*1024 =  99,857,989,632B
> which rounds to 99.9GB or 100GB when counted the first way?

	Yes I did think of that but since I can't boot anything despite
successfully installing openSUSE, and the references here
<http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-46088.html> describing
just exactly what I did.
	There should be some sort of option in the BIOS; yes it's been updated;
to disable the recovery partition but I haven't seen it. I've been
through the BIOS so many times I'm going to dream about it. I then found
this
<http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/Hardware/Clean_Hard_Drive_zero_fill> which promises to wipe a hard drive. That didn't do it either. Which would seem to prove that some partition is still protected?

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 10 22:11:47 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:11:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>



Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

>On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>  
>
>>2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
>>    
>>
>>>Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
>>>update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
>>>working on mine.
>>>      
>>>
>>What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
>>At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
>>get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
>>I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
>>Yikes!
>>
>>Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
>>1. Download <
>>http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
>>2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
>>3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
>>4. Try do do some root stuff.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess that's a
>good thing?
>
>(running Gentoo stable)
>
>Clinton
>
>  
>
Try it again Clinton - I got that the first time too. Second time I got 
a root prompt.

It is a big deal if you have other users on your system that have a shell.

-dave


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 22:39:53 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:39:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
Message-ID: <225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>

Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
turned off?)

On Feb 10, 2008 10:11 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:

>
>
> Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
>
> >On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
> >>>update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
> >>>working on mine.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
> >>At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
> >>get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
> >>I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
> >>Yikes!
> >>
> >>Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
> >>1. Download <
> >>http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
> >>2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
> >>3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
> >>4. Try do do some root stuff.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess
> that's a
> >good thing?
> >
> >(running Gentoo stable)
> >
> >Clinton
> >
> >
> >
> Try it again Clinton - I got that the first time too. Second time I got
> a root prompt.
>
> It is a big deal if you have other users on your system that have a shell.
>
> -dave
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sun Feb 10 22:40:34 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:40:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	(cvweiss@gmail.com)
Message-ID: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>

Clinton,

> I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.
> I guess that's a good thing?

In the sense that it stopped you from testing for the vulnerability,
it is a bad thing.
The fact that the compiler could not compile the source code,
is unrelated to whether or not your kernel has the bug.

If you were told that your home furnace might have a defect that risked
explosion and were mailed a device to test the furnace,
the fact that you didn't have the right size batteries for the test
device would not be reason to believe your furnace is without the
defect.

What the compiler error?
  Was it a link error?
    Missing library?

After compiling and executing the exploit, I could not read root files.
My SuSE kernel does not have the feature reportedly exploited.

The game is afoot
-- 
Bob

  "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
    -- Sherlock Holmes a.k.a. Arthur Conan Doyle


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sun Feb 10 22:46:47 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:46:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
References: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47AFC527.9060909@ameritech.net>

Robert Meier wrote:
> 
> After compiling and executing the exploit, I could not read root files.
> My SuSE kernel does not have the feature reportedly exploited.

How did you determine this?
Does this exploit have to be compiled on the same system as it is to
run, or against the same header files, or just with the same library
versions?



From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 23:20:40 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:20:40 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 10, 2008 7:39 PM, Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
> turned off?)

It doesn't matter -- su/sudo makes no difference.  You are given id=0...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Mon Feb 11 00:00:43 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:00:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47AFC527.9060909@ameritech.net> (message from Raymond McLaughlin
	on Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:46:47 -0500)
References: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
	<47AFC527.9060909@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20080211050043.77395127C75@starfox.local>

Ray,

>> After compiling and executing the exploit, I could not read root files.
>> My SuSE kernel does not have the feature reportedly exploited.

> How did you determine [you did not have the feature reportedly exploited]?

My principle method was of course to try the exploit before and after
hearing others' reports on its symptoms.

My preliminary method was to search the kernel source code for "vmsplice",
the feature named by slashdot, LWM, and Milw0rm.

> Does this exploit have to be compiled on the same system as it is to run,
> or against the same header files,

No.

> ... or just with the same library versions?

or reasonbly close versions.  I don't know how sensitive the exploit is
to the libraries used, but since I didn't see it mentioned during my
limited googling, I suspect library versions are not an issue,
but kernel source version 2.6.17 - 2.6.24.1 is an issue.

On offlist request, I'll send you an rpm off list.

Reporting,
-- 
Bob

  "A year spent in artificial intelligence,
   is enough to make one believe in God."
     -- Alan Perlis



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Mon Feb 11 00:03:11 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:03:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AFD70F.3070208@arb.net>

When I tried it again, su resulted in Root prompt w/o password. Yes, 
root worked at this point.

-dave

Michael wrote:

>Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
>turned off?)
>
>On Feb 10, 2008 10:11 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
>>>>>update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
>>>>>working on mine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
>>>>At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
>>>>get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
>>>>I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
>>>>Yikes!
>>>>
>>>>Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
>>>>1. Download <
>>>>http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
>>>>2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
>>>>3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
>>>>4. Try do do some root stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess
>>>      
>>>
>>that's a
>>    
>>
>>>good thing?
>>>
>>>(running Gentoo stable)
>>>
>>>Clinton
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Try it again Clinton - I got that the first time too. Second time I got
>>a root prompt.
>>
>>It is a big deal if you have other users on your system that have a shell.
>>
>>-dave
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Mon Feb 11 00:03:49 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:03:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
References: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47AFD735.6070103@arb.net>



Robert Meier wrote:

>Clinton,
>
>  
>
>>I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.
>>I guess that's a good thing?
>>    
>>
>
>In the sense that it stopped you from testing for the vulnerability,
>it is a bad thing.
>The fact that the compiler could not compile the source code,
>is unrelated to whether or not your kernel has the bug.
>
>If you were told that your home furnace might have a defect that risked
>explosion and were mailed a device to test the furnace,
>the fact that you didn't have the right size batteries for the test
>device would not be reason to believe your furnace is without the
>defect.
>
>What the compiler error?
>  Was it a link error?
>    Missing library?
>
>After compiling and executing the exploit, I could not read root files.
>My SuSE kernel does not have the feature reportedly exploited.
>
>The game is afoot
>  
>
Yes, interesting.

-dave


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 11 00:12:18 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:12:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-10, Monsieur Kristian Erik Hermansen a ecrit:
> On Feb 10, 2008 7:39 PM, Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
>> turned off?)
>
> It doesn't matter -- su/sudo makes no difference.  You are given id=0...

Heh, that makes me wonder now how many Ubuntu users out there are
thinking "I'll be safe since you can't su to root in Ubuntu". LOL!

Michael (not the one who asked the sudo/su question :)


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 00:17:25 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:17:25 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 10, 2008 9:12 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Heh, that makes me wonder now how many Ubuntu users out there are
> thinking "I'll be safe since you can't su to root in Ubuntu". LOL!

You are never safe from hackers :-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 00:55:20 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:55:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>

--- Peter Bart wrote:

    Yes I did think of that but since I can't boot anything despite
> successfully installing openSUSE, and the references here
> <http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-46088.html> describing
> just exactly what I did.
>         There should be some sort of option in the BIOS; yes it's been updated;
> to disable the recovery partition but I haven't seen it. I've been
> through the BIOS so many times I'm going to dream about it. I then found
> this
> <http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/Hardware/Clean_Hard_Drive_zero_fill> which promises to wipe a hard drive. That didn't do it either. Which would seem to prove that some partition is still protected?

Repeat question:  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up externally
on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS 6/Win98/WinME
boot floppy -- you can get those from http://www.bootdisk.com

~~ Mikey


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 03:56:26 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:56:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080211034838.0289f6f0@pop.gmail.com>

     I decided to try a couple of other programs in the host OS; 
Sound works normally in
Helix Player (playing a WAV file) and in Rythmbox (playing CD tracks) 
but does not
work in Xine (playing a movie .VOB file; I again get sound but no 
picture.)  (And I know
that the .VOB contains a soundtrack all by itself because I've played 
standalone .VOBs
and gotten sound before, on other systems.)

     Anyways, here are the results of "sudo ps aux" with most of each 
line edited out:

  TIME COMMAND
  0:01 init [5]
  0:00 [ksoftirqd/0]
  0:00 [watchdog/0]
  0:00 [events/0]
  0:00 [khelper]
  0:00 [kthread]
  0:00 [kacpid]
  0:00 [kblockd/0]
  0:00 [khubd]
  0:00 [pdflush]
  0:00 [pdflush]
  0:00 [aio/0]
  0:00 [kswapd0]
  0:00 [kseriod]
  0:00 [kjournald]
  0:00 udevd
  0:00 [kgameportd]
  0:00 [kjournald]
  0:00 [kjournald]
  0:00 [kjournald]
  0:01 syslogd -m 0
  0:00 klogd -x
  0:00 portmap
  0:00 rpc.statd
  0:00 auditd
  0:00 [kauditd]
  0:00 rpc.idmapd
  0:00 hcid: processing events
  0:00 sdpd
  0:00 [krfcommd]
  0:00 /usr/sbin/automount --timeout=60 /misc file /etc/auto.misc
  0:00 /usr/sbin/automount --timeout=60 /net program /etc/auto.net
  0:02 nifd -n
  0:00 mDNSResponder
  0:00 /usr/sbin/smartd
  0:00 /usr/sbin/acpid
  0:00 cupsd
  0:00 /usr/sbin/sshd
  0:01 /sbin/apcupsd -f /etc/apcupsd/apcupsd.conf
  0:00 sendmail: accepting connections
  0:00 sendmail: Queue runner at 01:00:00 for /var/spool/clientmqueue
  0:00 gpm -m /dev/input/mice -t imps2
  0:00 /usr/bin/iiimd
  0:00 /usr/sbin/cannaserver -syslog -u canna
  0:00 crond
  0:00 xfs -droppriv -daemon
  0:00 /usr/sbin/atd
  0:00 dbus-daemon --system
  0:00 cups-config-daemon
  0:15 hald --retain-privileges
  0:00 hald-addon-acpi
  0:19 hald-addon-hid-ups
  0:01 hald-addon-storage
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty1
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty2
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty3
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty4
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty5
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty6
  0:00 /bin/sh /etc/X11/prefdm -nodaemon
  0:00 /usr/bin/gdm-binary -nodaemon
  0:00 /usr/bin/gdm-binary -nodaemon
18:22 /usr/X11R6/bin/X :0 -audit 0 -auth /var/gdm/:0.Xauth -nolisten tcp vt7
  0:02 /usr/bin/gnome-session
  0:00 /usr/bin/ssh-agent /usr/bin/dbus-launch --exit-with-session 
/etc/X11/xinit/Xclients
  0:00 /usr/bin/dbus-launch --exit-with-session /etc/X11/xinit/Xclients
  0:00 dbus-daemon --fork --print-pid 8 --print-address 6 --session
  0:01 /usr/libexec/gconfd-2 5
  0:00 /usr/bin/gnome-keyring-daemon
  0:00 /usr/libexec/bonobo-activation-server --ac-activate --ior-output-fd=19
  0:02 /usr/libexec/gnome-settings-daemon 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_SettingsDaemon --oaf-ior-fd=23
  0:02 /usr/libexec/gam_server
  0:01 xscreensaver -nosplash
  0:15 /usr/bin/metacity --sm-client-id=default1
  0:05 gnome-panel --sm-client-id default2
  0:03 nautilus --no-default-window --sm-client-id default3
  0:00 gnome-volume-manager --sm-client-id default6
  0:00 eggcups --sm-client-id default5
  0:00 pam-panel-icon --sm-client-id default0
  3:20 /usr/bin/python /usr/bin/rhn-applet-gui --sm-client-id default4
  0:00 /sbin/pam_timestamp_check -d root
  0:08 /usr/libexec/wnck-applet 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_Wncklet_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=27
  0:00 /usr/libexec/gnome-vfs-daemon 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_VFS_Daemon_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=31
  0:00 /usr/libexec/mapping-daemon
  0:37 /usr/libexec/clock-applet 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_ClockApplet_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=35
  0:00 /usr/libexec/notification-area-applet 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_NotificationAreaApplet_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=36
  0:03 /usr/libexec/mixer_applet2 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_MixerApplet_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=34
  0:00 /usr/bin/esd -terminate -nobeeps -as 2 -spawnfd 17
  0:19 gnome-terminal --geometry 80x25
  0:00 gnome-pty-helper
  0:00 bash
  0:00 bash
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-bridge -d /var/run/vmnet-bridge-0.pid /dev/vmnet0 wlan0
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-netifup -d /var/run/vmnet-netifup-vmnet8.pid 
/dev/vmnet8 vmnet8
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-netifup -d /var/run/vmnet-netifup-vmnet1.pid 
/dev/vmnet1 vmnet1
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-natd -d /var/run/vmnet-natd-8.pid -m 
/var/run/vmnet-natd-8.mac -c /etc/vmware/vmnet8/nat/nat.conf
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-dhcpd -cf /etc/vmware/vmnet1/dhcpd/dhcpd.conf 
-lf /etc/vmware/vmnet1/dhcpd/dhcpd.leases -pf 
/var/run/vmnet-dhcpd-vmnet1.pid vmnet1
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-dhcpd -cf /etc/vmware/vmnet8/dhcpd/dhcpd.conf 
-lf /etc/vmware/vmnet8/dhcpd/dhcpd.leases -pf 
/var/run/vmnet-dhcpd-vmnet8.pid vmnet8
  0:00 [loop0]
  0:00 man unix2dos
  0:00 sh -c (cd /usr/share/man && (echo ".pl 1100i"; /usr/bin/gunzip 
-c '/usr/share/man/man1/unix2dos.1.gz'; echo ".\\\""; echo ".pl 
\n(nlu+10") | /usr/bin/gtbl | /usr/bin/nroff -c --legacy ISO-8859-1 
-mandoc 2>/dev/null | /usr/bin/less -is)
  0:00 sh -c (cd /usr/share/man && (echo ".pl 1100i"; /usr/bin/gunzip 
-c '/usr/share/man/man1/unix2dos.1.gz'; echo ".\\\""; echo ".pl 
\n(nlu+10") | /usr/bin/gtbl | /usr/bin/nroff -c --legacy ISO-8859-1 
-mandoc 2>/dev/null | /usr/bin/less -is)
  0:00 /usr/bin/less -is
  0:00 ps aux
  0:00 cut -c 60-
  0:00 sudo unix2dos

     Now can anyone pick out the sound handler?

     Thanks;

     Drew.



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Mon Feb 11 07:38:50 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:38:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net> <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>


On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 00:55 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> --- Peter Bart wrote:
> 
>     Yes I did think of that but since I can't boot anything despite
> > successfully installing openSUSE, and the references here
> > <http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-46088.html> describing
> > just exactly what I did.
> >         There should be some sort of option in the BIOS; yes it's been updated;
> > to disable the recovery partition but I haven't seen it. I've been
> > through the BIOS so many times I'm going to dream about it. I then found
> > this
> > <http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/Hardware/Clean_Hard_Drive_zero_fill> which promises to wipe a hard drive. That didn't do it either. Which would seem to prove that some partition is still protected?
> 
> Repeat question:  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
> With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up externally
> on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS 6/Win98/WinME
> boot floppy -- you can get those from http://www.bootdisk.com

	Don't think because I didn't say anything I've ignored that, just the
opposite! That does look most promising. I've been working on that
option. I didn't know you could have MBRWiz on a different computer
altogether, I'm not sure I have anything to connect them though. SSH
maybe? Since I'm using my install cd's rescue option to access my box,
and I don't have a usb floppy or cd I've been stumped. I just realized
that when I plug my handheld in the external memory card becomes
readable. That device runs a version of Debian so I should be able to
put MBRWiz on a 1gig flash card.
	Thank you all very much for all your help and suggestions. Since all
the firmware updates from Lenovo are in the form of iso images I didn't
want to start MS and the documentation turns out to be somewhat lacking.
I did go into the bios to check for the protected area, thinkwiki
referenced it but I didn't see where it could possibly be? I thought I
had checked things out between thinkwiki, Lenovo and what little written
documentation there was. Not to be :(

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 08:07:19 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:07:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802110507u6f205086vb6901dec5baa8cf7@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, didn't think I would be attacked for my comment. This exploit, if I
understood correctly, grants access to the root account. My question was
whether or not this exploit would work with the root account completely
locked (I.E. password file going to nologin). Per the group's response to my
comment the exploit gives the user access to id=0 not necessarily the root
account, am I understanding correctly?

On Feb 11, 2008 12:17 AM, Kristian Erik Hermansen <
kristian.hermansen at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 10, 2008 9:12 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> > Heh, that makes me wonder now how many Ubuntu users out there are
> > thinking "I'll be safe since you can't su to root in Ubuntu". LOL!
>
> You are never safe from hackers :-)
> --
> Kristian Erik Hermansen
> "Know something about everything and everything about something."
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Mon Feb 11 08:29:27 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:29:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802110507u6f205086vb6901dec5baa8cf7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>	<fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<225acb190802110507u6f205086vb6901dec5baa8cf7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B04DB7.5030209@bendorius.com>

Michael wrote:
> Per the group's response to my
> comment the exploit gives the user access to id=0 not necessarily the root
> account, am I understanding correctly?
> 
	Yup.  It's a privilege escalation exploit.  That being said, if an 
attacker gets UID=0, it's game over anyway, they have superuser privs.



-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 08:33:59 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:33:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47B04DB7.5030209@bendorius.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<225acb190802110507u6f205086vb6901dec5baa8cf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B04DB7.5030209@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802110533g26255888j9a5ac6cbb95744e5@mail.gmail.com>

Got it. Thanks!

On Feb 11, 2008 8:29 AM, Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com> wrote:

> Michael wrote:
> > Per the group's response to my
> > comment the exploit gives the user access to id=0 not necessarily the
> root
> > account, am I understanding correctly?
> >
>        Yup.  It's a privilege escalation exploit.  That being said, if an
> attacker gets UID=0, it's game over anyway, they have superuser privs.
>
>
>
> --
> Joseph Bender
> Bendorius Consulting
> P: 248-434-5580
> F: 248-434-5581
> jcbender at bendorius com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Mon Feb 11 08:50:37 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:50:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B052AD.5070706@bendorius.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

> I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter has
> to do a couple of things first:
> 
> 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
> machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
> 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your machine
> remotely.
> 
	There's also a #3 here (and more, but the coffee hasn't kicked in yet, 
and they're variations anyway).  This is in the form of a vulnerable 
public applications vector, which can and should be labeled as a 
distinct category from #2, in that network security measures at the 
layer 2 and layer 3 level won't do anything to protect.

	A good example is a public facing webserver that *might* be pretty well 
locked down, running as a non-priv'd user.  It does, however, have one 
little vulnerable script or executable that allows for the execution of 
code as the local user, which, in and of itself might be a trival 
exploit with very few actual issues, but combine it with a privilege 
escalation local exploit, get that code to run from that vulnerable 
script, and hey presto, that little issue just got really nasty.

	There's a couple of other nasty variations on this theme, including 
tricking a legit user to execute the "local" exploit code via an email 
attachment, URL, or some other "legitimate" vector(the MS ILOVEYOU virus 
is a good example of this).

	I'm not obviously sure what you mean by "network security measures" for 
#2, but a lot of people treat that as "firewall/NAT/layer-2/layer-3". 
To address everything through layer 7, a good IDS/IPS solution can and 
should be integrated internally and externally on the network and the 
attack signature updates done on a consistent and frequent basis, with 
updates monitored for what they're now checking for.

	For those reasons and a bunch of others, I really hate when a exploit 
gets classified as "local" vs. "remote" and the local attack isn't 
always seen as seriously as the remote exploit (I'm NOT saying however, 
that you're thinking this or seeing it that way).  Attack vector 
analysis is complex enough on any network with more than a few devices 
and operating systems on it that you can't always see how code might end 
up getting executed locally on a box.



-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Feb 11 09:29:51 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:29:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080211142846.99839C0C6@impelind.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Clinton V. Weiss
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 9:48 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
> 
> On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
> >
> > http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml
> >
> > Better patch your machines, pronto!
> >
> > Michael
> >
> 
> 
> I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the 
> exploiter has to do a couple of things first:
> 
> 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local 
> access to your machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
> 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log 
> into your machine remotely.
> 
> If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've 
> got problems.
> 
> Just an observation,
> Clinton
> 

	I agree.

	While this is certainly an issue, this is hardly dangerous if there
is no way for a user to gain remote console or local access to a machine.

	Still, once a patch is available, it is important to pop it into
place.

	-Rob



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 09:35:40 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:35:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 11, 2008 7:38 AM, Peter Bart wrote:

>>  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
>> With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up externally
>> on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS 6/Win98/WinME
>> boot floppy -- you can get those from http://www.bootdisk.com

> Don't think because I didn't say anything I've ignored that, just the
> opposite!  That does look most promising. I've been working on that
> option.

I didn't mean to sound like I was berating you... My thought was that
you could pop out the drive (I think it's relatively easy on that
model) and use an external USB drive interface to hang it off another
PC and clobber it that way...

~~ Mikey


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 11 10:37:34 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:37:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Android Mobile OS
Message-ID: <197266.75546.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Interesting read 

http://www.thestreet.com/s/how-googles-android-os-works/newsanalysis/technology-stories/10402832.html?puc=_cnnmoney&cm_ven=CNNMONEY&cm_cat=Free&cm_pla=Feed&cm_ite=Feed&puc=cnnmoney&



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 14:59:29 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:59:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080211145701.028c35d0@pop.gmail.com>

I think I've found it:

     /usr/bin/esd -terminate -nobeeps -as 2 -spawnfd 17

Now to see about turning it on and off...

----

- Drew.



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Mon Feb 11 12:45:45 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:45:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080211124545.7396fc5e@Nokia-N800-26>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:35:40 -0500
"Michael Rudas" <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 11, 2008 7:38 AM, Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> >>  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
> >> With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up
> >> externally on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS
> >> 6/Win98/WinME boot floppy -- you can get those from
> >> http://www.bootdisk.com
> 
> > Don't think because I didn't say anything I've ignored that, just
> > the opposite!  That does look most promising. I've been working on
> > that option.
> 
> I didn't mean to sound like I was berating you... My thought was that
> you could pop out the drive (I think it's relatively easy on that
> model) and use an external USB drive interface to hang it off another
> PC and clobber it that way...

Mike,
	It wasn't taken that way :) Yes the hard drives do still come
out very easily. Thanks to Gary for kicking me down that road w/another
box. I have no way to connect it then though. I do have a Nokia 770
that can connect via usb among other ways. My thought was to bring up
the T61 via live cd, connect the 770 w/MBRWhiz on it and whale away.
First I need to get w/Lenovo to find what I'm missing in the bios,
learn the correct syntax for the MBRWhiz using it that way. Neither
computer has anything on it that can't be easily replaced. But......
since it's snapped so cold the work calls are flooding in and those pay
the bills. I'm also prepping for my master plumber's exam in March, my
girlfriend doesn't know me anymore and the dog's started barking at me.
<sigh>

-- 
Peter The Plumber sm on the Road
State Licensed Plumber


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 11 11:21:54 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:21:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101907t4f24cc3bmf535fd67642be351@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102152470.5796@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101907t4f24cc3bmf535fd67642be351@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B07622.4020908@hotpop.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> 
>> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>>> I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter
>> has
>>> to do a couple of things first:
>>>
>>> 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
>>> machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
>>> 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your
>> machine
>>> remotely.
>>>
>>> If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've got
>> problems.
>>
>> This is a *local* root exploit. I take it you didn't actually read the
>> link I gave. ;)
>>
>> There *are* legitimate multi-user Linux machines out there, by the way.
>>
>> Michael
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
> 
> 
> You gave a slashdot link, where RTFA isn't required!  :)
> 
> I've tried two different systems using the instructions provided in another
> message:  my Gentoo desktop and my Debian VPS server.  Slashdot's link to
> proof of concept code won't compile on either system, and the concept code
> provided in another message compiles on my Debian VPS but doesn't work.
> Kind of a bummer I guess, I still haven't gotten my hands on a working Linux
> exploit so that I can fully understand and learn how it works.
> 
> I used to do that with boot and .exe viruses back in the day.   Figuring out
> the assembly was a challenge yet fun.

Do a google search for Morris worm.
Not linux precisely... it attacked SunOS and 4.3BSD.

Of course, to understand it, you'll first have to
learn about the VAX-11 and 680x0 cpus
[Yes, the Morris worm attacked two totally different
hardware architectures!]

The first successful dissection was by George Goble
at Purdue ECN.  He might even have a hard-copy of
the paper still laying around. [Somewhere, in a box,I
have a copy of his paper on the first dual CPU Unix].

> 
> Clinton
> 
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 11 12:31:52 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:31:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B08688.80000@hotpop.com>

Michael wrote:
> Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
> turned off?)

You can never totally "turn off" root -- User ID 0 always
exists, and will always have its "super-user" powers.
that's completely independant of whether you turn off
the ability to login to root, or su to it, or whatever,
because this is obviously bypassing the su mechanisms.


> 
> On Feb 10, 2008 10:11 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
>>>>> update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
>>>>> working on mine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
>>>> At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
>>>> get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
>>>> I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
>>>> Yikes!
>>>>
>>>> Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
>>>> 1. Download <
>>>> http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
>>>> 2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
>>>> 3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
>>>> 4. Try do do some root stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess
>> that's a
>>> good thing?
>>>
>>> (running Gentoo stable)
>>>
>>> Clinton
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Try it again Clinton - I got that the first time too. Second time I got
>> a root prompt.
>>
>> It is a big deal if you have other users on your system that have a shell.
>>
>> -dave
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 15:24:26 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:24:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MOFO (MOWFO) Mondays
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802101122y14f7dec7wb19869885684d0ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802101122y14f7dec7wb19869885684d0ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802111224g170e08d7vc79cb46c56474173@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 10, 2008 2:22 PM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Our SF fandom group, MOFO, meets each Monday at 8 p.m.  We alternate
> between the Redford Grill (tomorrow's meeting) located on the
> south-west corner of Beech-Daly and Five Mile Road and the Ram's Horn
> (next week's meeting) on Dequindre just south of 13 Mile Road.

I'll have to join you the next time I'm in Detroit.  The place I stay
at is rather close to there.


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 17:34:03 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:34:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080211172824.028c17a0@pop.gmail.com>

     I now think it's a permissions issue somehow. I was able to get 
sound out of both
xine and Firefox (after copying the files over from ~/drew/.mozilla) 
when logged into
the root account. (sudo from the user account did not help.)

     (And esd-ctl off didn't have any effect either.)

----

   - Drew.



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 00:33:22 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:33:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>

Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
excellent collection of cheat sheets:

"Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
<http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection>

Wow!

~~ Mikey


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 00:46:41 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:46:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802112146w100f2b79m9e5d478e6cc3183b@mail.gmail.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?

It looks like this is turning around and biting MS in the derriere,
big time.  Arrogance has its price, apparently...

"Microsoft's $80 Billion (and Growing) Yahoo Headache"
<http://seekingalpha.com/article/63912-microsoft-s-80-billion-and-growing-yahoo-headache>

"Yang Email on Yahoo Board Decision"
<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120274667426359131.html>

~~ Mikey


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 00:53:13 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:53:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>

Somehow the last slash got dropped, and it's needed.  Fixed now, sorry...

Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
excellent collection of cheat sheets:

"Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
<http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection/>

Wow!

 ~~ Mikey


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 02:12:51 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 02:12:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802112312h2ece61bcqdb75e3de54f2a52d@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 12, 2008 12:53 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Somehow the last slash got dropped, and it's needed.  Fixed now, sorry...
>
>
> Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
> excellent collection of cheat sheets:
>
> "Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
> <http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection/>
>
> Wow!

Very nice.  Thanks.


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Tue Feb 12 06:38:39 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:38:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112146w100f2b79m9e5d478e6cc3183b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380802112146w100f2b79m9e5d478e6cc3183b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1202816320.4099.99.camel@plumber.site>


On Tue, 2008-02-12 at 00:46 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> Michael Rudas wrote:
> > Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?
> 
> It looks like this is turning around and biting MS in the derriere,
> big time.  Arrogance has its price, apparently...
> 
> "Microsoft's $80 Billion (and Growing) Yahoo Headache"
> <http://seekingalpha.com/article/63912-microsoft-s-80-billion-and-growing-yahoo-headache>
> 
> "Yang Email on Yahoo Board Decision"
> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120274667426359131.html>
> 
> ~~ Mikey


	Good, I don't need the headache of trying to figure out how and when
this might filter down to my DSL provider, ATT
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Tue Feb 12 06:43:00 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:43:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1202816580.4099.104.camel@plumber.site>


On Tue, 2008-02-12 at 00:53 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> Somehow the last slash got dropped, and it's needed.  Fixed now, sorry...
> 
> Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
> excellent collection of cheat sheets:
> 
> "Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
> <http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection/>
> 
> Wow!
> 

	Very nice!! Thanks!

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Feb 12 09:49:04 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:49:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B1B1E0.6000601@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
> excellent collection of cheat sheets:
>
> "Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
> <http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection>
>
>   
Yea baby the very thing I have been looking for.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 11:04:36 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:04:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <47B1B1E0.6000601@comcast.net>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B1B1E0.6000601@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802120804x4957424enf129732483821346@mail.gmail.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:

> Michael Rudas wrote:
> > Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
> > excellent collection of cheat sheets:
> > "Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
> > <http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection/>

> Yea baby the very thing I have been looking for.

...and the reason I was keeping an eye out.

~~ M.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 12:20:17 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:20:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] AMD Phenom 9500 Performance?
Message-ID: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Does any one have a AMD Phenom 9500 on a system ? 

If so What is the performance?

David C. Lane 






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Feb 13 20:23:12 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:23:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] AMD Phenom 9500 Performance?
In-Reply-To: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802131723n1980e3d3m78f54c77afe2ea5c@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 13, 2008 12:20 PM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Does any one have a AMD Phenom 9500 on a system ?
>
> If so What is the performance?

New 32-bit vs. 64-bit review at Phoronix:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=998&num=1


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Feb 13 16:17:53 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:17:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] AMD Phenom 9500 Performance?
In-Reply-To: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47B35E81.10909@hotpop.com>

David Lane wrote:
> Does any one have a AMD Phenom 9500 on a system ? 
> 
> If so What is the performance?

To do what?




From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb 14 22:24:50 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:24:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <20080211050043.77395127C75@starfox.local>
References: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>	<47AFC527.9060909@ameritech.net>
	<20080211050043.77395127C75@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47B50602.3080004@ameritech.net>

Robert Meier wrote:

>> How did you determine [you did not have the feature reportedly exploited]?
> 
> My principle method was of course to try the exploit before and after
> hearing others' reports on its symptoms.
> 
> My preliminary method was to search the kernel source code for "vmsplice",
> the feature named by slashdot, LWM, and Milw0rm.
> 

Never the less:
<http://www.novell.com/linux/security/advisories/2008_07_kernel.html>

> 1) Problem Description and Brief Discussion
> 
>    This kernel update fixes the following critical security problem:
> 
>    - CVE-2008-0600: A local privilege escalation was found in the
>      vmsplice_pipe system call, which could be used by local attackers
>      to gain root access.
> 
>    This bug affects the following products:
>    - openSUSE 10.2 and 10.3
>    - SUSE Linux Enterprise Realtime 10 (SP1)
> 
>    Fixed packages have been released for openSUSE 10.2 and 10.3.
> 
>    For SUSE Linux Enterprise Realtime 10 packages are being prepared
>    currently.
> 
>    Since this problem affects Linux kernels starting with 2.6.17 and
>    vmsplice was not back-ported, no older products are affected.

An update is available, and probably advisable.




From tcameron at redhat.com  Fri Feb 15 12:52:58 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:52:58 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Red Hat is Hiring for Linux and J2EE Positions
Message-ID: <47B5D17A.1030108@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Howdy All -

Just wanted to remind you that we are looking for sales engineers,
consultants and trainers.  We need folks who have enterprise Unix/Linux
or JBoss/Websphere/WebLogic/other J2EE experience.

Ohio- or Chicago-based is preferred but not a hard requirement.  I also
want to correct my earlier posting on these jobs - if we get regional
folks, the travel will be mostly in-region.  Think "day trip," not "gone
all week."

If you know of anyone who might be interested and qualified, please have
them contact me ASAP.  We will be conducting interviews in Chicago very
soon, and want to get qualified applicants into those interviews.

Many thanks,
- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHtdF5mzle50YHwaARAgICAKDGME+GaudL+uPUBm/A2Et4VMtnIACeKg+P
kyEx2Gz7kf4OnRi8JlWynQQ=
=ZrJY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Fri Feb 15 13:27:59 2008
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
Message-ID: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...

http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Fri Feb 15 13:33:40 2008
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:33:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
Message-ID: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


BTW, Stephen Norris the founder of the capital equity company is connected to Carlyle group, a Bin-Laden + Bush family company...

-----Original Message-----
>From: "R. Kannan" <rkannan at peoplepc.com>
>Sent: Feb 15, 2008 1:27 PM
>To: mdlug at mdlug.org
>Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
>
>I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
>
>http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm
>
>________________________________________
>PeoplePC Online
>A better way to Internet
>http://www.peoplepc.com
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From blubdog at gmail.com  Fri Feb 15 16:57:47 2008
From: blubdog at gmail.com (Bruce Smith)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:57:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>

Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
say this for a very long time:

Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
web site?   ;-)

I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)

 - BS


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 15 17:42:02 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:42:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B6153A.1040306@ameritech.net>

Bruce Smith wrote:

> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
> web site?   ;-)

Yes

> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
> get rehashed here.  

Glad to amuse you.

>I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)

My inner smart-ass wishes to thank your inner smart-ass for so plainly
elucidating the obvious for us.

By way of returning the favor: Slash Dot is like the madding (or
maddening) crowd where I, for one, don't really know any one. I'm too
lazy to try to keep track. MDLUG is more like a small private club where
we all more or less know each other.

>  - BS

Thanks for sharing.


From ldaphelp at thuemmel.com  Fri Feb 15 23:51:38 2008
From: ldaphelp at thuemmel.com (Mark Thuemmel)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 23:51:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>

Bruce Smith wrote:
> Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
> suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
> really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
> say this for a very long time:
> 
> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
> web site?   ;-)
> 
> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
> get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)
> 
>  - BS

I'm kinda for coverage on the local level of SCO since Chrysler is right 
down the street from me and some of the court stuff is local too.

I think some of us have posted comments on Slashdot as well. The 
statment that "all the major slashdot stories seem to get rehashed here" 
might be a bit over the top, and well even if they are, at least there 
is a local perspective and something I can chat with fellow MDLUGers 
when I run in to them.

I'm also for any news on Ralsky, anytime, anywhere.

Its better than Microsoft bashing....too easy a target these days....

But I would agree, simply posting a link to slashdot without some 
insight is probably not worth the post.

I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little 
bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.


From blubdog at gmail.com  Sat Feb 16 07:56:31 2008
From: blubdog at gmail.com (Bruce Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:56:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
Message-ID: <b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>

> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little
> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.

I apologize if I killed this thread and getting side tracked.
Let me try to put it back on subject.

Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???

I admit not being current with SCO's business.  Do they have any
products other than SCO Unix?  If that's all they have, then I can't
imagine how they could make money.

AFAIK, SCO Unix hasn't been updated in years (decades?), and nobody in
their right mind would buy it now.  Even "back in it's day" it sucked
(IMO) - I've seen it.  The only nitch it had was the ability to run on
PC hardware (it was cheaper), but compared to other [non PC] Unix
vendors of the day, it sucked!  There are certainly much better, and
cheaper, options for running *nix on PC hardware these days!

Do they have any source of income, other than legacy Unix
implementations still paying maintenance?  That has to be shrinking.

Before he retired recently, a friend of mine was a SCO Unix admin at a
branch of the US military.  Places like that are not fast to change,
but eventually SCO Unix has to become extinct, doesn't it?

 - BS


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Sat Feb 16 12:01:28 2008
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:01:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>

Bruce Smith wrote:
>> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little
>> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.
> 
> I apologize if I killed this thread and getting side tracked.
> Let me try to put it back on subject.
> 
> Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
> Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???
> 

 From what I've read this is nothing more than a line of credit. So sco 
can carry on/drag out their litigation.

They are getting 50mil up front with the option to borrow more at 
something 20% interest.

If and when this goes through, Darl McBride must resign.

BD




From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 16 13:41:32 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:41:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802161041m5f4ae4bag6851dd3a6880ab20@mail.gmail.com>

--- R. Kannan wrote:

>> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone
to keep funding their sinking business...

> BTW, Stephen Norris the founder of the capital equity company is connected to Carlyle Group, a Bin-Laden + Bush family company...

A front, in other words.  That must be the "Middle Eastern connection"
I saw mentioned early on.   The Carlyle Group -- military hardware,
Dunkin' Donuts, and now this!  Army junk, junk food, junk litigation
-- somehow, it fits...

~~ Mikey


From blubdog at gmail.com  Sat Feb 16 16:06:53 2008
From: blubdog at gmail.com (Bruce Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:06:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>

> > Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
> > Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???
>
>  From what I've read this is nothing more than a line of credit.

Doesn't seem like a very safe loan.

> So sco can carry on/drag out their litigation.

OK, so they are gambling they can still get money from IBM.  I thought
SCO lost the court case?  Is this an appeal thing?

Any chance Microsoft is secretly funding this?

> They are getting 50mil up front with the option to borrow more at
> something 20% interest.

The lawyers are are the only ones getting money out of this
litigation.  I'm in the wrong line of work!

> If and when this goes through, Darl McBride must resign.

At least there is a bright side.   :-)

 - BS


From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 16 16:25:16 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:25:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802161041m5f4ae4bag6851dd3a6880ab20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b67fb0380802161041m5f4ae4bag6851dd3a6880ab20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B754BC.8080705@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> A front, in other words.  That must be the "Middle Eastern connection"
> I saw mentioned early on.   The Carlyle Group -- military hardware,
> Dunkin' Donuts, and now this!  Army junk, junk food, junk litigation
> -- somehow, it fits...
>   

And I'll give you any odds you want that Mickey Soft is behind it.  No
intelligent financial manager is going to make this call.  SCO is losing
in the courts and losing badly.  As mentioned they have no product worth
mentioning. 

I also notice they are taking the company private, that means their
books will be closed to the public.  Ergo the hanky panky will not be
out in the open for all to see.

SCO is a stalking horse that MS is not willing to let go of.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 15 13:50:58 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:50:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <47B5DF12.5090605@hotpop.com>

R. Kannan wrote:
> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
> 
> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm
> 

A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 15 13:53:14 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:53:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>

R. Kannan wrote:
> BTW, Stephen Norris the founder of the capital equity company is connected to Carlyle group, a Bin-Laden + Bush family company...
> 

So is everything since 21 Jan 2001 a Bush conspiracy these days?

Personally, I never liked the guy (he's far too much of
a socialist for my liking)...but the smear tactics used
against him are just way over the line.

> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "R. Kannan" <rkannan at peoplepc.com>
>> Sent: Feb 15, 2008 1:27 PM
>> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
>> Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
>>
>> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
>>
>> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 16 18:25:29 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:25:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802161818590.2423@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-15, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
> R. Kannan wrote:
>> BTW, Stephen Norris the founder of the capital equity company is connected to Carlyle group, a Bin-Laden + Bush family company...
>>
> So is everything since 21 Jan 2001 a Bush conspiracy these days?

Of course not. Nice straw man. @_@

> Personally, I never liked the guy (he's far too much of
> a socialist for my liking)...

I left you left out the smiley at the end of that statement. :)

Michael


From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 16 19:02:57 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:02:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47B779B1.4030102@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> So is everything since 21 Jan 2001 a Bush conspiracy these days?
>
> Personally, I never liked the guy (he's far too much of
> a socialist for my liking)...but the smear tactics used
> against him are just way over the line.
>   

Socialist?  Hardly, i don't know any self respecting socialist that
would own up to his policies.  Bush is a hard core mercantilist. 
Neither of which is good for you and me.  

Smear tactics are not necessary.  He has done more than enough evil by
his own hand to require anything added to it.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 16 21:07:09 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:07:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>

So far....

Unbuntu/kbuntu Gutsy Gibbon, x86, amd64, PPC

openSUSE 10.3 x86, amd64 CD and DVD.

CentOS x86, amd64 CD and DVD.

I am currently downloading Debian.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb 16 21:26:12 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:26:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
Message-ID: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>

I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in 
the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering 
the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter 
gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you 
could say I'm not am amateur.)

OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera. 
What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing 
S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with 
fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying 
to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their 
photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more 
minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.

The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone 
to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter 
release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool. 
None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery 
exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.

-dave


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sat Feb 16 22:00:49 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:00:49 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 16, 2008 6:26 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>
> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>
> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.

What model camera was this?  Of course, I am sure there are many ways
to accomplish what you believe has happened, but check out this
article...
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sat Feb 16 10:06:23 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:06:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161002550.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, R. Kannan wrote:

> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
>
> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm

Read carefully PJ's assessment of the deal and its ties to Gates and 
Microsoft through SCNP and its Saudi financier and also note webster's (a 
retired lawyer who follows groklaw like a saint) comments regarding his 
take on the deal. It may fly; it's been tailored to do so, but it can 
still be headed off or slowed down by sufficient objection from the 
parties in interest, i.e., Novell, IBM, Red Hat, etc. I'm not at all 
surprised, though.




From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sat Feb 16 10:08:02 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:08:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161006520.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, Bruce Smith wrote:

> Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
> suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
> really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
> say this for a very long time:
>
> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
> web site?   ;-)
>
> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
> get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)

I think the folks here can discuss anything Linux-related, which the whole 
SCO saga is. Thanks for your input, it will be duly noted and round-filed.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sat Feb 16 10:17:23 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:17:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161009050.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008, Bruce Smith wrote:

>> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little
>> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.
>
> I apologize if I killed this thread and getting side tracked.
> Let me try to put it back on subject.
>
> Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
> Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???

A multi-billionaire Saudi financier well-connected with Bush and Gates in 
order to keep the FUD alive.

> I admit not being current with SCO's business.  Do they have any
> products other than SCO Unix?  If that's all they have, then I can't
> imagine how they could make money.

Well, there's the Me, Inc mobile embedded software spin-off that some 
analysts think is worth a ton of dough due to its possible marketability. 
Having never seen such offering, it's impossible to tell either way, 
though. It's based on the Unix codebase, likely with lots of the odd open 
source stuff glued in there.

> AFAIK, SCO Unix hasn't been updated in years (decades?), and nobody in
> their right mind would buy it now.  Even "back in it's day" it sucked
> (IMO) - I've seen it.

I wish I had never seen it. I used to service a bunch of dental offices 
where a local OEM dumped a billing platform based on SCO's ancient 
OpenServer OS. A true nightmare to support, considering that most of those 
installations dated back to the early 90s, most of it still running on the 
original hardware.

> The only nitch it had was the ability to run on
> PC hardware (it was cheaper), but compared to other [non PC] Unix
> vendors of the day, it sucked!  There are certainly much better, and
> cheaper, options for running *nix on PC hardware these days!

Linux on any cheapo box can do it for dimes on hundreds of dollars.

> Do they have any source of income, other than legacy Unix
> implementations still paying maintenance?  That has to be shrinking.

They gots a lawsuites dat could go to teh MOON!

> Before he retired recently, a friend of mine was a SCO Unix admin at a
> branch of the US military.  Places like that are not fast to change,
> but eventually SCO Unix has to become extinct, doesn't it?

I can only imagine what a patchwork quilt the POS systems at places like 
McDonalds, Taco Hell, and Wheredy's could be, since I believe they have 
all run SCO Unix for decades.


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb 16 16:32:50 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:32:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>
	(blubdog@gmail.com)
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>
	<b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080216213250.354C719E60A@starfox.local>

>> So sco can carry on/drag out their litigation.
> ...
> Any chance Microsoft is secretly funding this?
> ...
> The lawyers are are the only ones getting money out of this litigation.

Is there anything to stop the money supporting select candidates
and/or their campaigns, or to stop it disproportionately "distracting"
voter attention from issues important to individuals and smaller businesses?

Concerned,
-- 
Bob



From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 17 00:21:18 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 00:21:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] HP-11C emulator
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>

I don't know if any of you have seen this, but it's extremely cool:

http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/

It's a program (for Linux) that emulates a lot of HP calculators,
including the 11C (my favorite), 12C, 15C, and more.

Screenshot of it in HP-11C mode on my Fedora system:
http://home.comcast.net/~micorral/hp11c.png

I love it! :)

Michael


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sun Feb 17 10:27:01 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:27:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>
	<b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802171025230.4422@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008, Bruce Smith wrote:

>>> Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
>>> Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???
>>
>>  From what I've read this is nothing more than a line of credit.
>
> Doesn't seem like a very safe loan.
>
>> So sco can carry on/drag out their litigation.
>
> OK, so they are gambling they can still get money from IBM.  I thought
> SCO lost the court case?  Is this an appeal thing?
>
> Any chance Microsoft is secretly funding this?

Every chance. It's become extremely apparent with the ties that SNCP has 
to the Saudi financier and his ties to both Gates and Bush.

>> They are getting 50mil up front with the option to borrow more at
>> something 20% interest.
> 
> The lawyers are are the only ones getting money out of this
> litigation.  I'm in the wrong line of work!

Amen. I should take up law school next.

>> If and when this goes through, Darl McBride must resign.
>
> At least there is a bright side.   :-)

Amen. Snarlin' Darl can piss up a rope for all I care.


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Sun Feb 17 13:06:20 2008
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:06:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>

Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm

Another reason to hanging on to my old 35mms.

This seems like a very broad patent, surprise. I recently saw something 
like this in a movie.

BD


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 17 13:04:20 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:04:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B87724.3090202@arb.net>



Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:

>On Feb 16, 2008 6:26 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
>>the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
>>the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
>>gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
>>could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>
>>OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
>>What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
>>S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
>>fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
>>to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
>>photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
>>minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>
>>The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
>>to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
>>release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
>>None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
>>exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>>    
>>
>
>What model camera was this?  Of course, I am sure there are many ways
>to accomplish what you believe has happened, but check out this
>article...
>http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>  
>
Very interesting.... I was guessing they were using something from the 
military to block laser guided whatever. It would be IR and certainly my 
focusing system would not be happy about it. I tried to get another 
chance but all the other motorcades last week were low value guests and 
didn't have the tailing gunship.

I have a Pentax K10 D. Its greatest asset is the anti-shake is in the 
camera body so I can use my long glass lenses from my newspaper days. 
Most of the others put the anti shake in the lens, rendering the older 
high end lenses much less useful. Its over 10m per shot and allows full 
manual for every option including turning off anti shake and auto focus. 
Both are a single separate switch.

They claim it is rain proof and the body has water seals for everything, 
but I worry about the lens, so I still shield it.

-dave


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 17:22:54 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:22:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] HP-11C emulator
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217171536.028d0a70@pop.gmail.com>

At 12:21 AM 2/17/08, you wrote:
>I don't know if any of you have seen this, but it's extremely cool:
>
>http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/
>
>It's a program (for Linux) that emulates a lot of HP calculators,
>including the 11C (my favorite), 12C, 15C, and more.

My personal favorite is emu48 on the linux desktop, and x48 on the zaurus. Both
emulate the HP48, the ROMs for which have been published by HP on their
web site, last I heard.

----

- Drew.




From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 17:28:33 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:28:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>

At 01:06 PM 2/17/08, you wrote:
>Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> > 
> http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>
>Another reason to hanging on to my old 35mms.

It seems that even digital cameras should be able to be unaffected, 
if either there is no
provision for receiving infrared signals or doing anything about 
them, or else the IR
sensor is blocked with something and you do the focusing and 
everything else manually.


>This seems like a very broad patent, surprise. I recently saw something
>like this in a movie.


They don't even have one to show yet, and they're filing for a patent 
on it!? WTF?

----

- Drew.



From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 16:29:23 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:29:23 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802171329le958ddbo49a39a1cb1fb9478@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 17, 2008 2:28 PM, Drew <drew4096 at gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems that even digital cameras should be able to be unaffected,

Doubt it.  All electronics can be affected by directed EMP pulses if
necessary :-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 02:40:20 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 02:40:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B69364.20703@hotpop.com>

Bruce Smith wrote:
> Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
> suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
> really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
> say this for a very long time:
> 
> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
> web site?   ;-)
> 
> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
> get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)
> 

I don't read slashdot (too many weenies over-reacting to
the utterly mundane.... like the periodic resurfacing
of the unmarked keyboard as if it's the holy grail of
computing hardware) so personally, I appreciate it when
someone brings a TRULY interesting news item to the list.





From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 17 17:35:43 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:35:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B8B6BF.8070106@arb.net>

Well, I suspect you have to go totally manual even with the 35mm (Yes, 
still have my work horse from the day) as even if you are on manual 
focus your metering system could be fooled by high IR jamming. Sure wish 
I had the second chance last week.

-dave

Drew wrote:

>At 01:06 PM 2/17/08, you wrote:
>  
>
>>Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
>>    
>>
>>http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>>
>>Another reason to hanging on to my old 35mms.
>>    
>>
>
>It seems that even digital cameras should be able to be unaffected, 
>if either there is no
>provision for receiving infrared signals or doing anything about 
>them, or else the IR
>sensor is blocked with something and you do the focusing and 
>everything else manually.
>
>
>  
>
>>This seems like a very broad patent, surprise. I recently saw something
>>like this in a movie.
>>    
>>
>
>
>They don't even have one to show yet, and they're filing for a patent 
>on it!? WTF?
>
>----
>
>- Drew.
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 17 18:46:09 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:46:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net> <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1203291969.4099.158.camel@plumber.site>


On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 09:35 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> On Feb 11, 2008 7:38 AM, Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> >>  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
> >> With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up externally
> >> on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS 6/Win98/WinME
> >> boot floppy -- you can get those from http://www.bootdisk.com
> 
> > Don't think because I didn't say anything I've ignored that, just the
> > opposite!  That does look most promising. I've been working on that
> > option.
> My thought was that
> you could pop out the drive (I think it's relatively easy on that
> model) and use an external USB drive interface to hang it off another
> PC and clobber it that way...

	Okay, I got the mbrwiz executable onto a memory card, that went into a
Nokia 770, that connected via usb cable too the T61 which was running on
a live cd. I apparently was able to find the right commands because I
got a complaint about missing shared libraries. Bummer. I found Parted
Magic which might do what I need and it's a live cd based on Linux. It's
running testdisk as we speak. If that doesn't work I'll try a MS boot
disk from the link you sent. I think my only other option would be to
restore my system with the recovery cd's I have and release the
partition from within XP. I'm not sure which is more agonizing.
	Interestingly I was told by Lenovo software support I had invalidated
my warranty because I had deleted XP despite the fact that Lenovo
supposedly supports Linux. That after being given some vague reference
to releasing the hidden partition from within the bios. They weren't
able to point me to the specific option. Kind of disappointing but I
know I live far below their level of consciousness.



-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 16:09:18 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:09:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>

Bruce Smith wrote:
>> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little
>> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.
> 
> I apologize if I killed this thread and getting side tracked.
> Let me try to put it back on subject.
> 
> Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
> Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???
> 
> I admit not being current with SCO's business.  Do they have any
> products other than SCO Unix?  If that's all they have, then I can't
> imagine how they could make money.
> 
> AFAIK, SCO Unix hasn't been updated in years (decades?), and nobody in
> their right mind would buy it now.  Even "back in it's day" it sucked
> (IMO) - I've seen it.  The only nitch it had was the ability to run on
> PC hardware (it was cheaper), but compared to other [non PC] Unix
> vendors of the day, it sucked!  There are certainly much better, and
> cheaper, options for running *nix on PC hardware these days!
> 
> Do they have any source of income, other than legacy Unix
> implementations still paying maintenance?  That has to be shrinking.
> 
> Before he retired recently, a friend of mine was a SCO Unix admin at a
> branch of the US military.  Places like that are not fast to change,
> but eventually SCO Unix has to become extinct, doesn't it?

The US military is moving to OS X and Linux servers to
replace the current windows servers.




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 19:51:39 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:51:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 16, 2008 4:09 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> The US military is moving to OS X and Linux servers to
> replace the current windows servers.

If that's true then how long will it be before Apple gets into
military hardware?
iTank
iDestroyer
iJet


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 02:47:02 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 02:47:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
Message-ID: <47B694F6.7070101@hotpop.com>

Mark Thuemmel wrote:
> Bruce Smith wrote:
>> Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
>> suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
>> really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
>> say this for a very long time:
>>
>> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
>> web site?   ;-)
>>
>> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
>> get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
>> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
>> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
>> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
>> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)
>>
>>  - BS
> 
> I'm kinda for coverage on the local level of SCO since Chrysler is right 
> down the street from me and some of the court stuff is local too.
> 
> I think some of us have posted comments on Slashdot as well. The 
> statment that "all the major slashdot stories seem to get rehashed here" 
> might be a bit over the top, and well even if they are, at least there 
> is a local perspective and something I can chat with fellow MDLUGers 
> when I run in to them.
> 
> I'm also for any news on Ralsky, anytime, anywhere.
> 
> Its better than Microsoft bashing....too easy a target these days....
> 
> But I would agree, simply posting a link to slashdot without some 
> insight is probably not worth the post.
> 
> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little 
> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.

Did you know that the new "investors" insisted that Darl
resign because he putting too much resources "into software
development."

Apparently, the new investors have NO interest in selling
software, just suing Linux-companies and Linux users.

Eventually, IBM, Novell and others will hit them back
with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

for driving customers away... and if financial links to Bill
Gates and friends are demonstrated to the courts...I would
bet that some long-due poetic justice will have arrived.




From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 17 20:43:56 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:43:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>
	<b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802172043140.3543@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-17, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
> On Feb 16, 2008 4:09 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> The US military is moving to OS X and Linux servers to
>> replace the current windows servers.
>
> If that's true then how long will it be before Apple gets into
> military hardware?
> iTank
> iDestroyer
> iJet

iTorture

Michael


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Sun Feb 17 20:58:33 2008
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:58:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: For Sale
Message-ID: <8681A1B99F0B164D97CDA02C4E4938AE033ADB75@QL1EXVS4.mi.corp.rockfin.com>

I have one (1) Dell PowerConnect 2224 24 port switch that I want to get rid of.  It is unmanaged, 10/100 and I would like to get $25 for it.  Please contact me off-list if you are interested.

Greg

From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 23:13:41 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:13:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> So far....
> 
> Unbuntu/kbuntu Gutsy Gibbon, x86, amd64, PPC
> 
> openSUSE 10.3 x86, amd64 CD and DVD.
> 
> CentOS x86, amd64 CD and DVD.
> 
> I am currently downloading Debian.


Cool!





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 23:23:21 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:23:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161002550.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>
References: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161002550.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>
Message-ID: <47B7B6B9.50000@hotpop.com>

Rich Clark <rrclark at rrclark.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, R. Kannan wrote:
> 
>> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
>>
>> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm
> 
> Read carefully PJ's assessment of the deal and its ties to Gates and 
> Microsoft through SCNP and its Saudi financier and also note webster's (a 
> retired lawyer who follows groklaw like a saint) comments regarding his 
> take on the deal. It may fly; it's been tailored to do so, but it can 
> still be headed off or slowed down by sufficient objection from the 
> parties in interest, i.e., Novell, IBM, Red Hat, etc. I'm not at all 
> surprised, though.
> 

What's truly sad is that there should even be a need for a site
like groklaw to exist.

(Note: I'm not complaining about the existance of groklaw..I'm
all for it!  I'm lamenting the need for it.)




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 02:11:00 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 02:11:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] HP-11C emulator
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47B7DE04.10806@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> I don't know if any of you have seen this, but it's extremely cool:
> 
> http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/
> 
> It's a program (for Linux) that emulates a lot of HP calculators,
> including the 11C (my favorite), 12C, 15C, and more.
> 
> Screenshot of it in HP-11C mode on my Fedora system:
> http://home.comcast.net/~micorral/hp11c.png

I've been unsuccessful in my search for software which emulates
modern HP calculators (circa 1986 HP-28C/HP-28S and the later
developments HP-40/48/49 (SX/GX/whatever).

I did find one, but it usually crashes whenever you try to do
an operation....

So finally, I just broke down and bought an HP-50G. $150.

VERY nice.  From what I understand, HP-49 series was
kinda junky.... lousy rubber-chiclet keypad (I seem to
recall seeing those, and the mere appearance screamed
"cheap").  The HP-50 is very much like the HP-48, except
a much faster CPU, more memory, SD card slots, and USB
port, and unfortunately, the reduction in size of the
enter-key from 2-columns wide to a single column :-(

Other annoyance with the HP-50...the HP-28's and HP-40's
had two manuals, both high quality (spiral wire bound, so
that they would lay flat on a table), the first being
something of an introductury "primer" which would get
you started with each of the major functional groups
within the software collection (statistical package,
calculus package, equation-writer, equation-solver
(numeric and symbolic), equation library,  unit conversion
library, etc.)  The 2nd manual was a complete catalog
of all several-hundred built-in operations and functions,
as well as documenting system flag values and the use
of defined memory addresses.

Now, the 1st manual is traditionally bound, is rather
poorly written, even though 95+% of the software inside
is just is a recompile of the same source code that was
on the HP-28 and HP-40 series, and so the manual didn't
even need to be rewritten!  The 2nd manual isn't even
included, other than as a PDF file, which, of course,
is formatted for 8.5 x 11, instead of the much more
handy size of the 28/40 manuals.  In this respect, I
am completely bummed out, because the 2nd manual is
what makes the calculator truly powerful in the hands
of its owner.  -- perusing it electronically is just not
the same as having it physically in my hands.

ARRRRGH!


Nevertheless, the actual calculator itself is
very good -- the keyboard is back to the quality
of the HP-11C/12C/13C/15C/28C/28S/40S/40SX, the
graphical screen is the largest ever.  The graphing
package now does 3-d, including with parametric
equations (such as x, y, and z are all functions
of some other variable, say t for time)...it now
handles rational values (integer fractions) as
integer fractions (of unlimited precision to the
limits of memory!) when doing ANY operation as
long as the rational value doesn't mix with any
floating-point value (ie. fp + rf => fp).




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 13:34:06 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:34:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B87724.3090202@arb.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B87724.3090202@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47B87E1E.8070704@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
> Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 16, 2008 6:26 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
>>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
>>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
>>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
>>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>>
>>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
>>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
>>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
>>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
>>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
>>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
>>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>>
>>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
>>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
>>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
>>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
>>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>>>    
>>>
>> What model camera was this?  Of course, I am sure there are many ways
>> to accomplish what you believe has happened, but check out this
>> article...
>> http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>>  
>>
> Very interesting.... I was guessing they were using something from the 
> military to block laser guided whatever. It would be IR and certainly my 
> focusing system would not be happy about it. I tried to get another 
> chance but all the other motorcades last week were low value guests and 
> didn't have the tailing gunship.

I know that U.S., British, and Russian main battle tanks
have all had something referred to as an "IR-dazzler" which
are designed to defeat two common uses of IR-lasers on the
battle field -- IR-laser guidance systems (TOW-2, Javelin,
many of those "smart bombs" that the Air Force uses, etc),
and IR-laser rangefinder systems (found on tanks, and also
what modern autofocus SLR's use)


> 
> I have a Pentax K10 D. Its greatest asset is the anti-shake is in the 
> camera body so I can use my long glass lenses from my newspaper days. 
> Most of the others put the anti shake in the lens, rendering the older 
> high end lenses much less useful. Its over 10m per shot and allows full 
> manual for every option including turning off anti shake and auto focus. 
> Both are a single separate switch.
> 
> They claim it is rain proof and the body has water seals for everything, 
> but I worry about the lens, so I still shield it.
> 
> -dave
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 17:37:26 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:37:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B8B726.3000907@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
> At 01:06 PM 2/17/08, you wrote:
>> Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
>> http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>>
>> Another reason to hanging on to my old 35mms.
> 
> It seems that even digital cameras should be able to be
 > unaffected, if either there is no provision for receiving
 > infrared signals or doing anything about them, or else the
 > IR sensor is blocked with something and you do the focusing
 > and everything else manually.
> 
> 
>> This seems like a very broad patent, surprise. I recently saw
 >> something like this in a movie.
> 
> 
> They don't even have one to show yet, and they're filing for a patent 
> on it!? WTF?

It has a use, quite obviously.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 17:40:48 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:40:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B8B6BF.8070106@arb.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>	<6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
	<47B8B6BF.8070106@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47B8B7F0.8010009@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> Well, I suspect you have to go totally manual even with the 35mm (Yes, 
> still have my work horse from the day) as even if you are on manual 
> focus your metering system could be fooled by high IR jamming.

Most meters aren't sensitive to IR -- the photons don't carry
enough energy.  UV yes (much more energy), but not IR.

 > Sure wish I had the second chance last week.
> 
> -dave




From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 17 21:29:36 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:29:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] HP-11C emulator
In-Reply-To: <47B7DE04.10806@hotpop.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47B7DE04.10806@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802172125180.4226@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-17, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/
>>
>> It's a program (for Linux) that emulates a lot of HP calculators,
>> including the 11C (my favorite), 12C, 15C, and more.
>
> I've been unsuccessful in my search for software which emulates
> modern HP calculators (circa 1986 HP-28C/HP-28S and the later
> developments HP-40/48/49 (SX/GX/whatever).

Here's one for the HP-42S: http://free42.sourceforge.net

It has a "realistic" skin that makes it look like the real thing:
http://home.comcast.net/~micorral/hp42s.png

Michael


From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 17 22:08:03 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:08:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>
> Cool!
>   

Except only the fist CD seems to be at the site.




-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 23:19:01 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:19:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47B90735.5050308@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Cool!
>>   
> 
> Except only the fist CD seems to be at the site.
> 

Say again. over.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 04:53:05 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:53:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>	<47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>
	<b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B95581.9030405@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Feb 16, 2008 4:09 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> The US military is moving to OS X and Linux servers to
>> replace the current windows servers.
> 
> If that's true then how long will it be before Apple gets into
> military hardware?

> iTank
> iDestroyer
> iJet

wow..if you think military hardware is overpriced now...





From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Mon Feb 18 09:10:43 2008
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:10:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: For Sale
In-Reply-To: <8681A1B99F0B164D97CDA02C4E4938AE033ADB75@QL1EXVS4.mi.corp.rockfin.com>
Message-ID: <C3DEFC13.597DB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Guess I should have included my e-mail address - greg.wojtak at gmail.com



On 2/17/08 8:58 PM, "Wojtak, Greg" <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:

> I have one (1) Dell PowerConnect 2224 24 port switch that I want to get rid
> of.  It is unmanaged, 10/100 and I would like to get $25 for it.  Please
> contact me off-list if you are interested.
> 
> Greg
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From gib at juno.com  Mon Feb 18 09:34:10 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:34:10 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
Message-ID: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>

 
I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone like to post an opinion on any of these?

_____________________________________________________________
Best Commodity Trading Platforms.  Click Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiejMCwiF1pUvNyYRzaPvSWgL1pVxkr1a4Du9cnVDAwLl9qZW/


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 12:17:22 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:17:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B95581.9030405@hotpop.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>	<47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>	<b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B95581.9030405@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47B9BDA2.9000607@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> iTank
>> iDestroyer
>> iJet
>>     
>
> wow..if you think military hardware is overpriced now...

But it will be much cooler, and you gun can access the Internet.



-- 
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 12:34:27 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:34:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47B90735.5050308@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47B90735.5050308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47B9C1A3.3070201@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Garry Stahl wrote:
>   
>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>     
>>> Cool!
>>>   
>>>       
>> Except only the fist CD seems to be at the site.
>>
>>     
>
> Say again. over.
>   

I have been unable to download anything but the first CD of some 20
odd.  That and the business card install. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 23:18:39 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:18:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in 
> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering 
> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter 
> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you 
> could say I'm not am amateur.)
> 
> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera. 
> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing 
> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with 
> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying 
> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their 
> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more 
> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
> 
> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone 
> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter 
> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool. 
> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery 
> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.

Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.

Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
*MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."

I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.




From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Mon Feb 18 14:02:54 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:02:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>


> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>
>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>
>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>
> Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.
>
> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>
> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.

Tinfoil hat alert!

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 14:01:45 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:01:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
> I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.
 > I've been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.
 > Would anyone like to post an opinion on any of these?
> 

sftp works very simply, it seems basically to be ftp
with an encryption layer thrown in. I've used (but not
managed) it, and it seems to be a well-rounded
recreation of ftp, the only serious deficiency seems to
be the lack of mget / mput.





From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 15:24:19 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:24:19 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802181224u2c3f1eefmfb29f36b433cd625@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 18, 2008 11:01 AM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> sftp works very simply, it seems basically to be ftp
> with an encryption layer thrown in. I've used (but not
> managed) it, and it seems to be a well-rounded
> recreation of ftp, the only serious deficiency seems to
> be the lack of mget / mput.

It's just SSH dude...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSH_file_transfer_protocol
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 15:42:36 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:42:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 18, 2008 9:34 AM, gib at juno.com <gib at juno.com> wrote:
>
> I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone like to post an opinion on any of these?

Haven't used them myself but here is a recent Debian howto for
encrypted FTP with TLS:
http://www.debianadmin.com/ftp-server-setup-with-tls-transport-layer-security-on-debian.html


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 15:46:36 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:46:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>  Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>  a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>  *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."

Where is your source for this information?

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 15:52:19 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:52:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>

Brian Hurley wrote:
>> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>>
>> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
>>     
>
> Tinfoil hat alert!
>   

Not really that is exactly what they say.  I've often wondered that
myself.  Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?  In
whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?

Might be better to wrap the tin foil around the camera.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 15:53:55 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:53:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B9F063.10309@comcast.net>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> Where is your source for this information?
>
>   
The label on the back of every class C device I own

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Feb 18 15:56:04 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:56:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Garry Stahl

> Not really that is exactly what they say.  I've often wondered that
> myself.  Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?  In
> whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?

 Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of that,
that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit power
levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices. They
may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that if a
legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough beans.
They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels (beyond
legal limits) to compensate.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317

 Only one thing is impossible for God: to find any sense in
       any copyright law on the planet. - Mark Twain
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 15:57:38 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:57:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802181257s706f4130m88ccdcc237eae9d2@mail.gmail.com>

sftp is by far the simplest and should be as secure as ssh, and you won't
need to set up any extra services on a box that you ssh into normally. Also
most ftp clients nowadays support sftp protocol (filezilla, fetch,
cyberduck, etc.) and the CLI is almost the exact same as regular ftp. Of
course, for me, a big problem with sftp is the lack of python support, but
it isn't really better for the other methods anyway.

On Feb 18, 2008 3:42 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 18, 2008 9:34 AM, gib at juno.com <gib at juno.com> wrote:
> >
> > I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've
> been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone like to
> post an opinion on any of these?
>
> Haven't used them myself but here is a recent Debian howto for
> encrypted FTP with TLS:
>
> http://www.debianadmin.com/ftp-server-setup-with-tls-transport-layer-security-on-debian.html
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From muteid10t at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 16:20:20 2008
From: muteid10t at gmail.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:20:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802181257s706f4130m88ccdcc237eae9d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>
	<225acb190802181257s706f4130m88ccdcc237eae9d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52995d720802181320k11dbab94x882e33892a8581ac@mail.gmail.com>

 a google search for "sftp python" turns up several ways of doing sftp
w/ python....

On 2/18/08, Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
> sftp is by far the simplest and should be as secure as ssh, and you won't
> need to set up any extra services on a box that you ssh into normally. Also
> most ftp clients nowadays support sftp protocol (filezilla, fetch,
> cyberduck, etc.) and the CLI is almost the exact same as regular ftp. Of
> course, for me, a big problem with sftp is the lack of python support, but
> it isn't really better for the other methods anyway.
>
> On Feb 18, 2008 3:42 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 18, 2008 9:34 AM, gib at juno.com <gib at juno.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've
> > been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone like to
> > post an opinion on any of these?
> >
> > Haven't used them myself but here is a recent Debian howto for
> > encrypted FTP with TLS:
> >
> > http://www.debianadmin.com/ftp-server-setup-with-tls-transport-layer-security-on-debian.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Mon Feb 18 17:16:27 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:16:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>


If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.


>> From: Garry Stahl
>
>> Not really that is exactly what they say.  I've often wondered that
>> myself.  Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?  In
>> whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?
>
>  Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of
> that,
> that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit
> power
> levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
> interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices.
> They
> may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that
> if a
> legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough
> beans.
> They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels
> (beyond
> legal limits) to compensate.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317
>
>  Only one thing is impossible for God: to find any sense in
>        any copyright law on the planet. - Mark Twain
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or
> disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us
> immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 17:43:06 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:43:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <52995d720802181320k11dbab94x882e33892a8581ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>
	<225acb190802181257s706f4130m88ccdcc237eae9d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<52995d720802181320k11dbab94x882e33892a8581ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802181443t5939898cg8a4a57de2a96144e@mail.gmail.com>

I know there are quite a few libraries out there including twisted conch,
but it's not in the default package and none are as simple as ftplib. Often
it's easier just to write sftp in bash for just a simple upload. Maybe
python 3.0?

On Feb 18, 2008 4:20 PM, Ron Blanchett <muteid10t at gmail.com> wrote:

>  a google search for "sftp python" turns up several ways of doing sftp
> w/ python....
>
> On 2/18/08, Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
> > sftp is by far the simplest and should be as secure as ssh, and you
> won't
> > need to set up any extra services on a box that you ssh into normally.
> Also
> > most ftp clients nowadays support sftp protocol (filezilla, fetch,
> > cyberduck, etc.) and the CLI is almost the exact same as regular ftp. Of
> > course, for me, a big problem with sftp is the lack of python support,
> but
> > it isn't really better for the other methods anyway.
> >
> > On Feb 18, 2008 3:42 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 18, 2008 9:34 AM, gib at juno.com <gib at juno.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've
> > > been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone
> like to
> > > post an opinion on any of these?
> > >
> > > Haven't used them myself but here is a recent Debian howto for
> > > encrypted FTP with TLS:
> > >
> > >
> http://www.debianadmin.com/ftp-server-setup-with-tls-transport-layer-security-on-debian.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > mdlug mailing list
> > > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 19:15:20 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:15:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of that,
> that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit power
> levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
> interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices. They
> may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that if a
> legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough beans.
> They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels (beyond
> legal limits) to compensate.
>   

Nor apparently sufficiently shield themselves from said interference.
That is the part I wonder about.  It's not sufficient to not cause
interference, which I think it should be, but you must allow
interference.  So If I come up with Garry's Superior RF shielding, that
keeps my device not only from interfering but from being interfered with
I can't use it?

The wording of the rule is odd to say the least.

-- 
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com


From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Feb 18 19:39:22 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:39:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BA253A.6060505@ameritech.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in 
>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering 
>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter 
>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you 
>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>
>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera. 
>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing 
>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with 
>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying 
>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their 
>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more 
>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>
>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone 
>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter 
>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool. 
>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery 
>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
> 
> Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.
> 
> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
> 
> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
> 

Though I'm too lazy to look up a link, I remember a year and a half, to
two years age thee were a few articles about new anti-camera technology
being used at high tech trade shows. It involved a sophisticated lens
detection system that recognized the aperture of a camera lens (or the
"black body" behind it). This camera detector was coupled was coupled
with a very bright, precisely directed strobe that blinded any cameras
detected.





From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 21:00:28 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:00:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.47ba383c.2e59c5fd.757e@zaurus>

* Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote on 14:01:45:
 
> sftp works very simply, it seems basically to be ftp
> with an encryption layer thrown in. I've used (but not
> managed) it, and it seems to be a well-rounded
> recreation of ftp, the only serious deficiency seems to
> be the lack of mget / mput.

    The implimentation on my Zaurus does in fact have mget and mput. My complaint with sftp and ftp is the inability to transfer a directory tree intact.

----

- Drew.





From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 21:06:06 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:06:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA253A.6060505@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <etPan.47ba398e.35c9b524.757e@zaurus>

* Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote on 19:39:22:

> two years age thee were a few articles about new anti-camera technology
> being used at high tech trade shows. It involved a sophisticated lens
> detection system that recognized the aperture of a camera lens (or the
> "black body" behind it). This camera detector was coupled was coupled
> with a very bright, precisely directed strobe that blinded any cameras
> detected.

How would such a system react to a video camera? It seems the strobe would have to be on practically continuously.

----

 - Drew.



From brian at dangerbacon.com  Mon Feb 18 21:47:15 2008
From: brian at dangerbacon.com (Brian)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:47:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802182147.22769.brian@dangerbacon.com>

On Monday 18 February 2008 02:01:45 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> gib at juno.com wrote:
> > I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.
> >
>  > I've been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.
>  > Would anyone like to post an opinion on any of these?
>
> sftp works very simply, it seems basically to be ftp
> with an encryption layer thrown in. I've used (but not
> managed) it, and it seems to be a well-rounded
> recreation of ftp, the only serious deficiency seems to
> be the lack of mget / mput.
>
>
mget and mput aren't necessary with sftp as globbing works with just regular 
get.  mget is still there, for some reason it doesn't show it when you run 
a "help" though...

-- 
Brian
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080218/8c74812a/attachment.sig>

From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 15:13:37 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:13:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
>> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
>>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
>>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
>>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
>>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>>
>>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
>>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
>>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
>>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
>>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
>>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
>>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>>
>>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
>>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
>>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
>>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
>>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>> Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.
>>
>> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>>
>> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
> 
> Tinfoil hat alert!

If there's not a reason for this, then why doe the FCC *DEMAND*
that Class C consumer electronics accept interference causing
unwanted operation?

Basically, the designation specifically PROHIBITS (under
penalty of law) protecting the device from RFI.

As an Army National Guard soldier.. I have annual MANDATORY
civil-disturbance training (this being the primary state-level
role of the Guard).  Without going into detail, I can assure
you that there are reasons why government officials WANT
consumer electronic devices to be susceptible to any sort of
jamming system which the government has at its disposal.





From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Feb 18 22:20:43 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:20:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
> If there's not a reason for this, then why doe the FCC *DEMAND*
> that Class C consumer electronics accept interference causing
> unwanted operation?

You seem to be interpreting the word "accept" differently than I would.
I interpret it to mean that the user of the Class C device has no
recourse if any unwanted operation occurs as a result of EM
interference. I don't read it to mean that the device must be made
susceptible to such unwanted operation.


> Basically, the designation specifically PROHIBITS (under
> penalty of law) protecting the device from RFI.

I doubt this is a correct interpretation. It would amount to depriving
me of the use of my own property without due process.




From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 23:12:37 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:12:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>
	<47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47BA5735.8040304@comcast.net>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>   
>> If there's not a reason for this, then why doe the FCC *DEMAND*
>> that Class C consumer electronics accept interference causing
>> unwanted operation?
>>     
>
> You seem to be interpreting the word "accept" differently than I would.
> I interpret it to mean that the user of the Class C device has no
> recourse if any unwanted operation occurs as a result of EM
> interference. I don't read it to mean that the device must be made
> susceptible to such unwanted operation.
>
>   

Back of an RCA portable CD player and I quote:  "This device complied
with part 15 of the FCC rules.  Operation subject to the following two
conditions.  1)  This device may not cause any harmful interference and
2) This device MUST accept any interference which may cause undesired
operation."  and I end quote.

The word is "MUST".  I'm not saying why, but it is an awful funny thing
to require of anything.  No tin foil hat required.

But you might want to wrap your computer in it.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 22:41:06 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:41:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
> If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
> PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.

That only applies to sellers, not consumers.
If you don't believe me... READ IT.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 22:47:20 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:47:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BA5148.3090506@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>>  Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of that,
>> that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit power
>> levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
>> interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices. They
>> may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that if a
>> legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough beans.
>> They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels (beyond
>> legal limits) to compensate.
>>   
> 
> Nor apparently sufficiently shield themselves from said interference.
> That is the part I wonder about.  It's not sufficient to not cause
> interference, which I think it should be, but you must allow
> interference.  So If I come up with Garry's Superior RF shielding, that
> keeps my device not only from interfering but from being interfered with
> I can't use it?
> 
> The wording of the rule is odd to say the least.

Come on..think like a power-hungry politician...especially a
mayor or governor, who "doesn't want 'trouble'."

The purpose of the FCC mandate is to allow the police to be
able to disable all consumer electronic devices within an
area ON COMMAND if it is the will of the mayor or governor
for them to do so.

Not just shutting down radios and TVs
Shutting down clocks, microwave oven, ... any electronic
device which people have come to rely on, and whose way
of life becomes disrupted if all of them were suddenly
shut down.

What's the first thing the police do in a "seige" situation --
cut off the electricity and water, and oftentimes they will
follow shortly with annoying noise-generators (crappy
music, recordings of animals dying violently, etc.).




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 22:50:44 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:50:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>
	<47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47BA5214.7060801@hotpop.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> If there's not a reason for this, then why doe the FCC *DEMAND*
>> that Class C consumer electronics accept interference causing
>> unwanted operation?
> 
> You seem to be interpreting the word "accept" differently than I would.
> I interpret it to mean that the user of the Class C device has no
> recourse if any unwanted operation occurs as a result of EM
> interference.

That's correct.  And why does the FCC *DEMAND* that a Class C
device *not* be protected from interference resulting in
unwanted operation.

Hint: civil disturbance.

 > I don't read it to mean that the device must be made
> susceptible to such unwanted operation.

That and more.

> 
> 
>> Basically, the designation specifically PROHIBITS (under
>> penalty of law) protecting the device from RFI.
> 
> I doubt this is a correct interpretation. It would amount to depriving
> me of the use of my own property without due process.

If you want an RFI-proof device, then you don't purchase
a Class-C consumer electronic device.

And the government (unfortunately) has usurped a lot of
unconstitutional authority starting in the 1930's.




From tcameron at redhat.com  Mon Feb 18 23:25:43 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:25:43 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Red Hat is Hiring
In-Reply-To: <47A6AE34.9010604@redhat.com>
References: <47A6AE34.9010604@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <47BA5A47.1070301@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thomas Cameron (Red Hat) wrote:
| Howdy All -
|
| My name is Thomas Cameron, and I am the solutions architect (a.k.a.
| sales engineer) team lead for the central region of the United States.
| I am not a recruiter, I'm a technical employee at Red Hat based out of
| Austin, Texas.
|
| We're looking for sales engineers, consultants and technical trainers in
| the Detroit area.

Just a reminder - I'll be in Chicago next week doing interviews.  If
anyone has enterprise Linux experience and is interested in coming to
work at Red Hat, please fill out an online resume at
https://redhat.ats.hrsmart.com/cgi-bin/a/editprofile.cgi and send me a
soft copy of your resume and your desired position ASAP.

Thanks!
- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHulpHmzle50YHwaARAovXAJ9lALvKu5HKmtBbCa5YN3nhPqqRPQCgwr0P
N5U0u8qgj3Apz7ExD6nuhsE=
=5aDX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 23:04:42 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:04:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA253A.6060505@ameritech.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<47BA253A.6060505@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47BA555A.70005@hotpop.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in 
>>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering 
>>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter 
>>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you 
>>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>>
>>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera. 
>>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing 
>>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with 
>>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying 
>>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their 
>>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more 
>>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>>
>>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone 
>>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter 
>>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool. 
>>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery 
>>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>> Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.
>>
>> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>>
>> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
>>
> 
> Though I'm too lazy to look up a link, I remember a year and a half, to
> two years age thee were a few articles about new anti-camera technology
> being used at high tech trade shows. It involved a sophisticated lens
> detection system that recognized the aperture of a camera lens (or the
> "black body" behind it). This camera detector was coupled was coupled
> with a very bright, precisely directed strobe that blinded any cameras
> detected.

I believe I've seen images where such anti-photography technology
was in place (usually with a caption by the photographer indicating
that he/she wonders what the heck happened to ruin the shot).





From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Feb 18 23:47:02 2008
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:47:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	(brian@detroitindustrial.org)
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <20080219044702.5875F19E60C@starfox.local>

Gary et al,

>>  Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>>  a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>>  *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
> Where is your source for this information?

I'm not sure when the "class C" stickers became popular.

My 1987 Realistic Chronosette fm/am/alarm clock has no
"warning sticker", though it does have an FCC ID.

My 1994 Hewlitt Packard A4033A monitor (with FCC ID) says
   "This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC rules.
    Operation is subject to the following two conditions:
    (1) this device may not cause harmful interference, and
    (2) this device must accept any interference received,
    including interference that may cause undesired operation."

My 2006 Dorcey hand-cranked flashlight (with no FCC ID) says
   "FCC Class C
    Operation is subject to the following two conditions:
    (1) this device may not cause harmful interference, and
    (2) this device must accept any interference received,
    including interference that may cause undesired operation."

I am quite confident that my flashlight radiates less electromagnetic
energy than it reflects on a sunny day.

The FCC rule involved:
  "15.5   General conditions of operation.
   (a) Persons operating intentional or unintentional radiators shall not be
   deemed to have any vested or recognizable right to continued use of any
   given  frequency  by  virtue of prior registration or certification of
   equipment,  or,  for power line carrier systems, on the basis of prior
   notification of use pursuant to  Sec. 90.63(g) of this chapter.

   (b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is
   subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that
   interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an
   authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator,
   by industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental
   radiator.

   (c) The operator of a radio frequency device shall be required to cease
   operating the device upon notification by a Commission representative that
   the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until
   the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected."
	-- 47 CFR 15.5
           United States Code of Federal Regulations
	   Title 47 Part 15 Section 5
	   http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?
	          TITLE=47&PART=15&SECTION=5&YEAR=2005&TYPE=PDF

The jurisdiction involved:
  "15.1   Scope of this part.
   (a)  This  part  sets  out the regulations under which an intentional,
   unintentional, or incidental radiator may be operated without an individual
   license. It also contains the technical specifications, administrative
   requirements and other conditions relating to the marketing of part 15
   devices.

   (b) The operation of an intentional or unintentional radiator that is not in
   accordance with the regulations in this part must be licensed pursuant to
   the provisions of section 301 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended,
   unless otherwise exempted from the licensing requirements elsewhere in this
   chapter.

   (c)  Unless  specifically  exempted,  the operation or marketing of an
   intentional or unintentional radiator that is not in compliance with the
   administrative  and technical provisions in this part, including prior
   Commission authorization or verification, as appropriate, is prohibited
   under section 302 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and subpart
   I of part 2 of this chapter. The equipment authorization and verification
   procedures are detailed in subpart J of part 2 of this chapter."
	-- 47 CFR 15.1

Why class C (intentional radiator)?
Why not class B (unintentional radiator)?

> Not really that is exactly what they say.
> I've often wondered that myself.
> Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?
> In whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?

By Fermat's principle, shielding works both ways.
Shielding against interference, is also shielding against radiation.

As written above, 15.5, you may shield, and are required to shield
or otherwise reduce unwanted emissions (15.209),
if necessary to prevent excessive radiation.



The danger of course is that as "interference must be accepted that
may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station"
becomes "interference must be accepted ..." and then becomes
"[consumer electronic devices must be susceptible to any sort of
  jamming system which the government has at its disposal]"

The problem of course, is that like gun control laws,
legal restrictions on freedom-of-reception restrict the law-abiding
to a much greater degree than the criminal.

<SATIRE>
If you prohibit fire extinguishers
(only those careless with fire need them),
you may limit the law-abiding to cold cuts and salads,
but you'll do little or nothing to stop arsonists (or those who are careless).
</SATIRE>



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
 or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom
 of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
 assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
   -- United States Constitution, Ammendment I
	   becomes
"Congress shall not support any religion ..."
	   becomes
"[government must prohibit free exercise of religion in public]"





-- 
Bob

  Caution: all living mortals who read this must die.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 22:39:59 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:39:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BA4F8F.4030905@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Brian Hurley wrote:
>>> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>>> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>>> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>>>
>>> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
>>>     
>> Tinfoil hat alert!
>>   
> 
> Not really that is exactly what they say.  I've often wondered that
> myself.  Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?  In
> whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?

the government...so that if authorities want to, they can disrupt
the operation of all consumer goods within an area of interest.

For example, in breaking up a riot, if the devices *MUST* accept
RF interference, then it's very easy to prevent them from being
used as a means of coordination among the "ring-leaders".

This means that if you want to have a well-run riot, you need
to invest in more expensive equipment. :-)

> 
> Might be better to wrap the tin foil around the camera.
> 
> 





From mdlug3 at arb.net  Tue Feb 19 01:13:22 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:13:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <20080219044702.5875F19E60C@starfox.local>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<20080219044702.5875F19E60C@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47BA7382.6070405@arb.net>


>>nterest is requiring interference to be allowed?
>>    
>>
>
>By Fermat's principle, shielding works both ways.
>Shielding against interference, is also shielding against radiation.
>
>As written above, 15.5, you may shield, and are required to shield
>or otherwise reduce unwanted emissions (15.209),
>if necessary to prevent excessive radiation.
>
>
>
>The danger of course is that as "interference must be accepted that
>may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station"
>becomes "interference must be accepted ..." and then becomes
>"[consumer electronic devices must be susceptible to any sort of
>  jamming system which the government has at its disposal]"
>
>The problem of course, is that like gun control laws,
>legal restrictions on freedom-of-reception restrict the law-abiding
>to a much greater degree than the criminal.
>
><SATIRE>
>If you prohibit fire extinguishers
>(only those careless with fire need them),
>you may limit the law-abiding to cold cuts and salads,
>but you'll do little or nothing to stop arsonists (or those who are careless).
></SATIRE>
>
>
>  
>
Yeah Rob,  unfortunately, the current government (Senate included) does 
not follow the Constitution nor the already enacted laws - Example being 
the Senate's version of the FISA "alteration" to not only allow the 
current Executive branch's desires, but to give Big Telcom immunity from 
breaking already existing FISA law. For me, forget about all the water 
under the bridge, if you retroactively change law, what is "The Rule of 
Law" ???

-dave


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Tue Feb 19 01:36:46 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:36:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BA78FE.5010100@arb.net>



Garry Stahl wrote:

>Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  
>
>> Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of that,
>>that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit power
>>levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
>>interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices. They
>>may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that if a
>>legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough beans.
>>They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels (beyond
>>legal limits) to compensate.
>>  
>>    
>>
>
>Nor apparently sufficiently shield themselves from said interference.
>That is the part I wonder about.  It's not sufficient to not cause
>interference, which I think it should be, but you must allow
>interference.  So If I come up with Garry's Superior RF shielding, that
>keeps my device not only from interfering but from being interfered with
>I can't use it?
>
>The wording of the rule is odd to say the least.
>
>  
>
OK, My K10D has the Part 15 rule requiring it to "must accept any 
interference received including interference that may cause undesirable 
operation"

But it goes on to say -

"Changes or modification not approved by the party responsible for the 
compliance could void the user's authority to operate the equipment."

So much for Tin Foil.  Sure wish I had a second chance to photo graph a 
high value person.

-dave


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 23:02:25 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:02:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BA54D1.6050900@hotpop.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>>  Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>>  a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>>  *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
> 
> Where is your source for this information?
> 

The back of nearly any electronic device.  It's everywhere.

Picking something at random, the first object I picked up
was my new 2.5-inch SATA drive/USB 2.0 carrier, which has
the typical wording on the back:

	This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC rules.
	Operation is subject to the following two conditions:

	(1) This device may not cause harmful interference

	(2) This device must accept any interference recieved,
	including interference that may cause undesired operation.

	[FCC logo]   Tested to comply with FCC standards.



The only difference from years ago is that in the 70's
and 80's, there was a a title at the top, which said
"Class C consumer device."

In any event, you'll find it on all sorts of things.
TVs. Radios, alarm clocks.

Interestingly, my $150 HP-50G does not carry this
legend, but a $10 scientific calculator does.

The back of the HP-50G says:
		Complies with ICES-003, Class B



Class B devices cannot emit interference, but
ARE ALLOWED to reject interference.




From jjn at nuge.com  Tue Feb 19 04:16:10 2008
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:16:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA78FE.5010100@arb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0802190343120.25249-100000@home.nuge.com>

Greetings,

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Dave Arbogast wrote:

> OK, My K10D has the Part 15 rule requiring it to "must accept any 
> interference received including interference that may cause undesirable 
> operation"
> 
> But it goes on to say -
> 
> "Changes or modification not approved by the party responsible for the 
> compliance could void the user's authority to operate the equipment."
> 
> So much for Tin Foil.  Sure wish I had a second chance to photo graph a 
> high value person.

   But *if* these "important people" *are* illuminating themselves with
high levels of IR, wouldn't that be a VERY bad way of identifying the
target to any snipers???  DUH???  Just aim at the big bright spot on the 
IR scope and pull the trigger.  Or set the road bomb to go off when high 
IR levels are detected.  Again...DUH???

   And as for "MUST accept interference"... That is the way to restrict
the consumer product market from having any recourse to complain when a
perfectly good transmitter (AM/FM/TV broadcast, Ham, Police/Fire,
Aviation, etc.) interferes with them. 

   I recall back in the 70's when the ARRL (Amateur Radio Relay League)
had to work with the FCC to tighten restrictions on imported TV sets that
were *easily* interfered with by Amateur radio transmitters.  The public
was in an uproar that "those damn Hams" were interfereing, when in fact
the public were being sold incredibly crappy TV sets!  We got that problem
fixed and the Part-15 rules were tightened up quite a bit :)

   We (the Hams & the ARRL) have been having the same effect on Part-15
restrictions regarding BPL (Broadband over Power Line).  This is where
broadband Internet is delivered over the power lines.  The power lines
radiate the RF signal FAR more strongly than Part 15 allows.  Their
lobbiests even got the FCC to "relax" the requirements for awhile. But we
have been firmly in the face of the FCC and the BPL manufactureres and
system operators for the past few years *proving* the level and degree of
interference created by such systems.  Several BPL operators have even
shut down service and gone away because they could not bring their systems
into accordance with the limits :)

   And while I'm on my soapbox...  Please keep in mind that channels 1
thru 6 on your precious 2.4 GHz WiFi device *belong* to the Amateur Radio
service under Part 97.  The WiFi folks are "secondary users" under Part 15
and "MUST accept any interference" from us Hams.  Periodically a few Hams
in Livingston, Oakland, Macomb, Wayne and Washtenaw counties get to
playing with our HSMM (High Speed Multi Media) stations and some of those 
channels go Bye-Bye!  As we are allowed 1000 WATTS on those frequencies :)

   Welcome to reality.  Welcome to 'shared frequency resources'.  And
welcome to an electronic world where LOTS of things emit energy where we
would rather they not.  And thusly, electronic devices must be designed
and built to withstand that very same jungle of EMI/RFI signals.

   Enjoy!
      --- Jay Nugent  WB8TKL
             
"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
 be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0850/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  3:01am  up 118 days,  3:58,  5 users,  load average: 0.31, 0.35, 0.30



From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Tue Feb 19 08:55:00 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:55:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802190855.00939.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Monday 18 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Brian Hurley wrote:
> > If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
> > PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.
>
> That only applies to sellers, not consumers.
> If you don't believe me... READ IT.

It seems that paranoia and lack of a sense or humor go together.


-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Feb 19 09:54:36 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:54:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <200802190855.00939.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165466@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Brian Hurley

> It seems that paranoia and lack of a sense or humor go together.

 Sometimes, the fact that someone didn't laugh at your joke is *not* an
indication that they don't have a sense of humor. Sometimes it's a reflection
on the joke itself.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                             (313) 227-2317

  "We've got no place in this outfit for good losers.
  We want tough hombres who will go in there and win!"
            - Admiral Jonas Ingram, 1926
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 10:53:54 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:53:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
Message-ID: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Currently I'm building a home office infrastructure, and I'm taking a good look at CPU's.  It seems that Intel offers CPU's with more L2 cache.  And the Q6600 is a good example and runs about $250 OEM +/- where the AMD Phenom starts at 199.00.  Both have 128k L1 cache, but the Intel Q6700  has 4M L2 Cache in addition to 128k L1 But is a wopping $539.00 

I do Have E6600 and E6400 Intel chips and am very happy with them.  The E6600 runs Open Suse 10.3 and the E6400 runs Windows XP (yes, there are a hand full of application that run only on windows that I need).  Both with  good SATA hard drives are quite responsive.

The Techs tell me that the cache helps make the system faster, and that is the $300 difference in the Q6600 and the Q6700. Currently I'm happy with my E6400 & E6600.  

Does any know what performance yield is the extra cache on the Q6700?

David C. Lane 

 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 11:14:00 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:14:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
Message-ID: <192242.43827.qm@web37912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Last weekend I spent building and installing an IPCOP resource. the glitch of the build and install was a faulty hub.  Next weekend I'm going to get a netgear for the DMZ orange zone.

It looks like things  are moving a long, thanks guys.

David C. Lane 





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Feb 19 11:13:57 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:13:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080219161301.467BFC0CA@impelind.com>


What is the primary function of the majority of the PCs you will be using?

What OS/Applications will be installed?

Will these PCs only be for office or will they also be for "Play" use, as in
Video Games?

Are a small number of PCs going to be installed with Specialty Software
(Analytics, CAD/CAM, etc.)?

If you can answer those questions first, then the proverbial "we" will be
able to provide you with better information.


-Rob



> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of David Lane
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:54 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
> 
> Currently I'm building a home office infrastructure, and I'm 
> taking a good look at CPU's.  It seems that Intel offers 
> CPU's with more L2 cache.  And the Q6600 is a good example 
> and runs about $250 OEM +/- where the AMD Phenom starts at 
> 199.00.  Both have 128k L1 cache, but the Intel Q6700  has 4M 
> L2 Cache in addition to 128k L1 But is a wopping $539.00 
> 
> I do Have E6600 and E6400 Intel chips and am very happy with 
> them.  The E6600 runs Open Suse 10.3 and the E6400 runs 
> Windows XP (yes, there are a hand full of application that 
> run only on windows that I need).  Both with  good SATA hard 
> drives are quite responsive.
> 
> The Techs tell me that the cache helps make the system 
> faster, and that is the $300 difference in the Q6600 and the 
> Q6700. Currently I'm happy with my E6400 & E6600.  
> 
> Does any know what performance yield is the extra cache on the Q6700?
> 
> David C. Lane 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>       
> ______________________________________________________________
> ______________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From jcbender at bendorius.com  Tue Feb 19 11:30:19 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:30:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <etPan.47ba383c.2e59c5fd.757e@zaurus>
References: <etPan.47ba383c.2e59c5fd.757e@zaurus>
Message-ID: <47BB041B.7060105@bendorius.com>

Drew wrote:
> * Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote on 14:01:45:
> 
>     The implimentation on my Zaurus does in fact have mget and mput. 
>     My complaint with sftp and ftp is the inability to transfer 
 >     a directory tree intact.
 >
	rsync does a better job of that anyway (and usually defaults to using 
SSH as the transport these days).

	Additionally, "scp -rp" will recursively copy directories and preserve 
modes and the various file timestamps.

	All that being said, if you really *want* to, you can use SSH and tar 
to do this as well.  It goes something like this (and this is from 
memory, so it *might* be a wee bit inaccurate):

 From target host:
ssh user at hostname "cd <source directory> && tar -cf - ." | tar -xvf -
(assumes your *local* cd is where you want the files to end up)

To target host:
tar -cf - . | ssh user at hostname "cd <target directory> && tar -xvf -"
(assumes that your *local* cd is where you want your files to come from)

Add or subtract tar options to fit your particular needs.


Personally, I prefer just using rsync over SSH for this sort of thing.


-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Tue Feb 19 13:18:48 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:18:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0802190343120.25249-100000@home.nuge.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0802190343120.25249-100000@home.nuge.com>
Message-ID: <47BB1D88.1060804@arb.net>



Jay Nugent wrote:

>
>
>   But *if* these "important people" *are* illuminating themselves with
>high levels of IR, wouldn't that be a VERY bad way of identifying the
>target to any snipers???  DUH???  Just aim at the big bright spot on the 
>IR scope and pull the trigger.  Or set the road bomb to go off when high 
>IR levels are detected.  Again...DUH???
>
This was DC at the Whitehouse. The number of visibly armed officers was 
many orders of magnitude higher than I have ever seen in Michigan. 
Someone trying to ambush the random routes these motorcades take would 
likely be spotted long before they could do anything. :-)  There were a 
number of roof tops with "tents" on them nearby and people in all black 
walking about the edge of the building with devices in their hands. :-) 
For all I know they were pointing a dazzler device at me.

On bright spots, I would guess they would use the Dazzlers only when 
they see a threat - Like the B-52 jamming officers only use "Papa Jam" 
when they can't isolate the in bound threat.

-dave


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Feb 19 15:31:26 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:31:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <192242.43827.qm@web37912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <192242.43827.qm@web37912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802191231j2ff19d57s2e11ec04cb086cfd@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 19, 2008 11:14 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Last weekend I spent building and installing an IPCOP resource. the glitch of the build and install was a faulty hub.  Next weekend I'm going to get a netgear for the DMZ orange zone.
>
> It looks like things  are moving a long, thanks guys.
>
> David C. Lane

If you need more subnets try this add-on:
http://www.ban-solms.de/t/IPCop-xtiface.html

The problem with add-ons is that you often have to reinstall them
after any IPCop updates.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 15:46:45 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:46:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
Message-ID: <218142.38952.qm@web37909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you.  

For now I just need the basic zones.  However it may make since to have a few green sub-nets.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:31:26 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] IPCOP install


On 
Feb 
19, 
2008 
11:14 
AM, 
David 
Lane 
<dcl400m at yahoo.com> 
wrote:
> 
Last 
weekend 
I 
spent 
building 
and 
installing 
an 
IPCOP 
resource. 
the 
glitch 
of 
the 
build 
and 
install 
was 
a 
faulty 
hub.  
Next 
weekend 
I'm 
going 
to 
get 
a 
netgear 
for 
the 
DMZ 
orange 
zone.
>
> 
It 
looks 
like 
things  
are 
moving 
a 
long, 
thanks 
guys.
>
> 
David 
C. 
Lane

If 
you 
need 
more 
subnets 
try 
this 
add-on:
http://www.ban-solms.de/t/IPCop-xtiface.html

The 
problem 
with 
add-ons 
is 
that 
you 
often 
have 
to 
reinstall 
them
after 
any 
IPCop 
updates.
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 15:49:59 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:49:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
Message-ID: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Can you use 192.168.x.x and mask 255.255.0.0?

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:31:26 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] IPCOP install


On 
Feb 
19, 
2008 
11:14 
AM, 
David 
Lane 
<dcl400m at yahoo.com> 
wrote:
> 
Last 
weekend 
I 
spent 
building 
and 
installing 
an 
IPCOP 
resource. 
the 
glitch 
of 
the 
build 
and 
install 
was 
a 
faulty 
hub.  
Next 
weekend 
I'm 
going 
to 
get 
a 
netgear 
for 
the 
DMZ 
orange 
zone.
>
> 
It 
looks 
like 
things  
are 
moving 
a 
long, 
thanks 
guys.
>
> 
David 
C. 
Lane

If 
you 
need 
more 
subnets 
try 
this 
add-on:
http://www.ban-solms.de/t/IPCop-xtiface.html

The 
problem 
with 
add-ons 
is 
that 
you 
often 
have 
to 
reinstall 
them
after 
any 
IPCop 
updates.
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From danno at umich.edu  Tue Feb 19 15:47:22 2008
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:47:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080219204722.GA8254@maniac.deathstar.org>

If you are doing processor-intensive stuff AND the data set and the
code are small enough that it fits into whatever cache you have,
you will have much improved performance vs. not fitting in your
cache.

For typical "home office" applications you probably won't notice
much if any difference.  you probably won't notice a whole lot of
difference between one of these and a $75 Athlon X2.  

without knowing more about what "home office" means to you, I'd
suggest you spend the difference in price on more system memory rather
than a better CPU.

On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 07:53:54AM -0800, David Lane wrote:
> Currently I'm building a home office infrastructure, and I'm taking a good look at CPU's.  It seems that Intel offers CPU's with more L2 cache.  And the Q6600 is a good example and runs about $250 OEM +/- where the AMD Phenom starts at 199.00.  Both have 128k L1 cache, but the Intel Q6700  has 4M L2 Cache in addition to 128k L1 But is a wopping $539.00 
> 
> I do Have E6600 and E6400 Intel chips and am very happy with them.  The E6600 runs Open Suse 10.3 and the E6400 runs Windows XP (yes, there are a hand full of application that run only on windows that I need).  Both with  good SATA hard drives are quite responsive.
> 
> The Techs tell me that the cache helps make the system faster, and that is the $300 difference in the Q6600 and the Q6700. Currently I'm happy with my E6400 & E6600.  
> 
> Does any know what performance yield is the extra cache on the Q6700?
> 
> David C. Lane 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 16:31:38 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:31:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
Message-ID: <532791.68867.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The Next resource I'm looking it is a database server (MySQL)/Intranet HTML server .



----- Original Message ----
From: Dan Pritts <danno at umich.edu>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:47:22 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel


If 
you 
are 
doing 
processor-intensive 
stuff 
AND 
the 
data 
set 
and 
the
code 
are 
small 
enough 
that 
it 
fits 
into 
whatever 
cache 
you 
have,
you 
will 
have 
much 
improved 
performance 
vs. 
not 
fitting 
in 
your
cache.

For 
typical 
"home 
office" 
applications 
you 
probably 
won't 
notice
much 
if 
any 
difference.  
you 
probably 
won't 
notice 
a 
whole 
lot 
of
difference 
between 
one 
of 
these 
and 
a 
$75 
Athlon 
X2.  

without 
knowing 
more 
about 
what 
"home 
office" 
means 
to 
you, 
I'd
suggest 
you 
spend 
the 
difference 
in 
price 
on 
more 
system 
memory 
rather
than 
a 
better 
CPU.

On 
Tue, 
Feb 
19, 
2008 
at 
07:53:54AM 
-0800, 
David 
Lane 
wrote:
> 
Currently 
I'm 
building 
a 
home 
office 
infrastructure, 
and 
I'm 
taking 
a 
good 
look 
at 
CPU's.  
It 
seems 
that 
Intel 
offers 
CPU's 
with 
more 
L2 
cache.  
And 
the 
Q6600 
is 
a 
good 
example 
and 
runs 
about 
$250 
OEM 
+/- 
where 
the 
AMD 
Phenom 
starts 
at 
199.00.  
Both 
have 
128k 
L1 
cache, 
but 
the 
Intel 
Q6700  
has 
4M 
L2 
Cache 
in 
addition 
to 
128k 
L1 
But 
is 
a 
wopping 
$539.00 
> 
> 
I 
do 
Have 
E6600 
and 
E6400 
Intel 
chips 
and 
am 
very 
happy 
with 
them.  
The 
E6600 
runs 
Open 
Suse 
10.3 
and 
the 
E6400 
runs 
Windows 
XP 
(yes, 
there 
are 
a 
hand 
full 
of 
application 
that 
run 
only 
on 
windows 
that 
I 
need).  
Both 
with  
good 
SATA 
hard 
drives 
are 
quite 
responsive.
> 
> 
The 
Techs 
tell 
me 
that 
the 
cache 
helps 
make 
the 
system 
faster, 
and 
that 
is 
the 
$300 
difference 
in 
the 
Q6600 
and 
the 
Q6700. 
Currently 
I'm 
happy 
with 
my 
E6400 
& 
E6600.  
> 
> 
Does 
any 
know 
what 
performance 
yield 
is 
the 
extra 
cache 
on 
the 
Q6700?
> 
> 
David 
C. 
Lane 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>  
  
  
 
____________________________________________________________________________________
> 
Never 
miss 
a 
thing.  
Make 
Yahoo 
your 
home 
page. 
> 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> 
_______________________________________________
> 
mdlug 
mailing 
list
> 
mdlug at mdlug.org
> 
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan 
pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Feb 19 11:46:56 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:46:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47BB0800.9010200@hotpop.com>

David Lane wrote:
> Currently I'm building a home office infrastructure, and I'm taking a good look at CPU's.  It seems that Intel offers CPU's with more L2 cache.  And the Q6600 is a good example and runs about $250 OEM +/- where the AMD Phenom starts at 199.00.  Both have 128k L1 cache, but the Intel Q6700  has 4M L2 Cache in addition to 128k L1 But is a wopping $539.00 
> 
> I do Have E6600 and E6400 Intel chips and am very happy with them.  The E6600 runs Open Suse 10.3 and the E6400 runs Windows XP (yes, there are a hand full of application that run only on windows that I need).  Both with  good SATA hard drives are quite responsive.
> 
> The Techs tell me that the cache helps make the system faster, and that is the $300 difference in the Q6600 and the Q6700. Currently I'm happy with my E6400 & E6600.  
> 
> Does any know what performance yield is the extra cache on the Q6700?

Phenom has an L3 cache, too.

This allows the L2 to be smaller (faster) without imposing a huge
performance of hit of going out to main memory when a loop exceeds
the size of the L2.

> 
> David C. Lane 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Feb 19 11:55:51 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:55:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [opensuse] System Lockups Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <47B9DD3D.3070001@ij.net>
References: <47B9DD3D.3070001@ij.net>
Message-ID: <47BB0A17.4010201@hotpop.com>


No thanks.
Had one before.
Didn't like it.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Feb 19 17:24:16 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:24:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <20080219204722.GA8254@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20080219204722.GA8254@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <47BB5710.2040206@hotpop.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> If you are doing processor-intensive stuff AND the data set and the
> code are small enough that it fits into whatever cache you have,
> you will have much improved performance vs. not fitting in your
> cache.
> 
> For typical "home office" applications you probably won't notice
> much if any difference.  you probably won't notice a whole lot of
> difference between one of these and a $75 Athlon X2.  
> 
> without knowing more about what "home office" means to you, I'd
> suggest you spend the difference in price on more system memory rather
> than a better CPU.

I agree.

Dollars spent being equal... More memory on a slower CPU will
always yield higher performance.




From danno at umich.edu  Tue Feb 19 21:09:09 2008
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:09:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <532791.68867.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <532791.68867.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080220020908.GA86637@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 01:31:38PM -0800, David Lane wrote:
> The Next resource I'm looking it is a database server (MySQL)/Intranet HTML server .
> 

VERY broadly speaking, for most DB applications, if you have to
choose between CPU cache and more main memory, choose more main
memory.

Next (or perhaps *before* main memory) choose faster hard disks,
and/or a faster RAID controller.

If you're sure you'll have enough main memory & fast enough disks,
more CPU cache can't hurt.  

Probably, though, a better buying strategy would be to try your
application on the hardware you already have and see where the
bottleneck is.

danno


From tony at bemushosting.com  Tue Feb 19 23:19:36 2008
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:19:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>

I believe you can not because the 192.168.x.x ip range is a Class C
range with a default subnet mask of 255.255.255.0.  If you need to use
the 255.255.0.0 subnet then start with a class B address like
172.16.x.x 

Tony Bemus


On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 12:49 -0800, David Lane wrote:

> Can you use 192.168.x.x and mask 255.255.0.0?
> 
> David 
> 




From tcameron at redhat.com  Tue Feb 19 23:31:18 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:31:18 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>
References: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>
Message-ID: <47BBAD16.2090409@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sure you can!  You can subnet or supernet all you like as long as you
have control over the network.

For instance, if I want to supernet - make a standard class C-ish
network larger - I can twiddle the netmask like so:

192.168.0.0/255.255.254.0

That gives me a network which starts at 192.168.0.0 and ends at
192.168.1.255, or 512 addresses.  Perfectly legal.

More common example...  If I wanted to use only a small portion of a
large class A-ish network like 10.0.0.0 (which would "normally" have a
255.0.0.0 subnet mask), I can do this:

10.20.50.0/255.255.255.128

This gives me a subnet which starts at 10.20.50.0 and ends at
10.20.50.127, or 128 total addresses.

The only time you can't do this is if you don't own the other bits of
the network you want to use.  So if your ISP issues you (for instance)
24.55.122.8/255.255.255.248, that would give you 24.55.122.8 through
24.55.122.15.  You could not arbitrarily decide to use 255.255.255.240
and start using 16 addresses, since the ISP didn't assign them to you.
In reality, even if you did try that their router would probably not
allow it anyway, but you get the picture.

Google CIDR and read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_Inter-Domain_Routing for some
really cool info on how subnet masks are used to do routing and
sub/supernetting.

Tony Bemus wrote:
| I believe you can not because the 192.168.x.x ip range is a Class C
| range with a default subnet mask of 255.255.255.0.  If you need to use
| the 255.255.0.0 subnet then start with a class B address like
| 172.16.x.x
|
| Tony Bemus
|
|
| On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 12:49 -0800, David Lane wrote:
|
|> Can you use 192.168.x.x and mask 255.255.0.0?
|>
|> David
|>
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| mdlug mailing list
| mdlug at mdlug.org
| http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHu60Wmzle50YHwaARAvH5AJ9QUYLKgqou92T4ancQ2XHb5L7nUACfRlP0
09FkV/aCwPuOD8ltxFACnLM=
=pVWj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Tue Feb 19 23:34:37 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:34:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Monday 18 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Brian Hurley wrote:
> > If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
> > PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.
>
> That only applies to sellers, not consumers.
> If you don't believe me... READ IT.

My previous response to this was a bit glib. 

A more serious would be that yes I've read it. Perhaps you're too young to 
rmember when it didn't have the line "...EXCEPT BY CONSUMERS". The reason 
that was added was to allay just the sort of paranoia we're seeing on this 
list about the FCC label. 

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22DO+NOT+REMOVE+UNDER%0A+PENALTY+OF+LAW%22

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Feb 19 22:33:01 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:33:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <20080220020908.GA86637@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <532791.68867.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20080220020908.GA86637@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <47BB9F6D.2020703@hotpop.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 01:31:38PM -0800, David Lane wrote:
>> The Next resource I'm looking it is a database server (MySQL)/Intranet HTML server .
>>
> 
> VERY broadly speaking, for most DB applications, if you have to
> choose between CPU cache and more main memory, choose more main
> memory.



> 
> Next (or perhaps *before* main memory) choose faster hard disks,
> and/or a faster RAID controller.

Depending on the size of the database and other running apps,
and how much memory can populate the motheroard.

If the database is small enough to all fit in RAM with all of
the other processes that will be running, then buy enough RAM
to do exactly that.

If not, then buy fast disks

> 
> If you're sure you'll have enough main memory & fast enough disks,
> more CPU cache can't hurt.  
> 
> Probably, though, a better buying strategy would be to try your
> application on the hardware you already have and see where the
> bottleneck is.
> 
> danno





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Feb 20 00:29:40 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:29:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
> On Monday 18 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Brian Hurley wrote:
>>> If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
>>> PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.
>> That only applies to sellers, not consumers.
>> If you don't believe me... READ IT.
> 
> My previous response to this was a bit glib. 
> 
> A more serious would be that yes I've read it. Perhaps you're too young to 
> rmember when it didn't have the line "...EXCEPT BY CONSUMERS". The reason 
> that was added was to allay just the sort of paranoia we're seeing on this 
> list about the FCC label. 


Apples and Oranges.

The Mattress/Pillow label thing was a mistake of ommission.

The statement that a device *MUST* accept interference did
not come about by forgetting to exclude it.  It's an act
of commission...which means someone TOOK AN ACTION to include
that specification within federal law.

No government would demand that your electronics be susceptible
to interference unless the want to reserve the power to use
that weakness.

Here's an example.

When I was in Baghdad, we had equipment which takes practical
advantage of these sorts of mandated weakness in electronic
devices (these same requirements are in place in practically
all countries where modern electronic devices are manufactured),
so the same thing applies to electronics in Iraq as what you
buy here in the States.

When we arrived in theater, the commander of the company
which we were replacing showed us several videos... some
taken off Al-Queda web sites showing us how NOT to react
to IED attacks; the deadly results of driving too fast
in top-heavy vehicles on bad roads (one made by the
turret gunner who ended up being decapitated in the
roll-over accident which occurred a couple minutes
into the video which started as they left the base)...
the last one showed some idiot trying to blow up a patrol...
and he's holding his video camera while trying to trigger
an attack with a Motorola FRS (Family Radio Service)
type radio (the little "walkie-talkie" type things,
often with optional "security channels" that were
introduced about 8 years ago.

Suffice it to say that not only did he fail to trigger
his explosive device, but one of the turret gunners
spotted this man in field in the middle of nowhere,
with a video camera and a radio...which is pretty much
the signature of an IED trigger man.  So, in the
video, the camera suddenly goes from pointing at the
passing humvees to pointing up at the sky....it's like
that for about 2-minutes...until you see the camera
panning around to half a squad of American soldiers,
before aiming down to show the man, Motorola radio
still in his hand, with the incredible trauma of
having been hit in the chest with a .50 caliber bullet.

Does this now clarify for you WHY governments insist
that consumer-grade devices be vulnerable to any
interference which causes "undesired operation"



There's other things, but I can't talk about them, at
least not for a few decades.

> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22DO+NOT+REMOVE+UNDER%0A+PENALTY+OF+LAW%22
> 






From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 20 12:13:07 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:13:07 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>

I have been commissioned to create a flier for the club to pass around. 
Other than the basic contact and website info what is wanted is a quick
description of what we do, and a "hook" a line to get people to read the
flier.

I am soliciting suggest for hooks and text.  I'll listen for either two
week on till the talk dies down.  Pitch your ideas.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 12:24:33 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:24:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> I have been commissioned to create a flier for the club to pass around.
>  Other than the basic contact and website info what is wanted is a quick
>  description of what we do, and a "hook" a line to get people to read the
>  flier.
>
>  I am soliciting suggest for hooks and text.  I'll listen for either two
>  week on till the talk dies down.  Pitch your ideas.

http://www.paperplane.org

Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
make Linux users look like a cult.


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Wed Feb 20 12:40:51 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:40:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>
References: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>
Message-ID: <47BC6623.3000505@bendorius.com>

Tony Bemus wrote:
> I believe you can not because the 192.168.x.x ip range is a Class C
> range with a default subnet mask of 255.255.255.0.  If you need to use
> the 255.255.0.0 subnet then start with a class B address like
> 172.16.x.x 
> 
	
Please go and read RFC1918 (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1918.html). 
192.168.0.0 is a /16.  172.16.0.0 is a /12, NOT a /16, despite so many 
references getting it very very wrong.

I will also point out that Class A, B and C are very outdated 
nomenclature, as CIDR's been in effect for many years now.  It's more 
common to refer to networks by their CIDR bitmask (/16, /20, /19, /24).

The 3 private subnet allocations are as follows (from the RFC):

10.0.0.0        -   10.255.255.255  (10/8 prefix)
172.16.0.0      -   172.31.255.255  (172.16/12 prefix)
192.168.0.0     -   192.168.255.255 (192.168/16 prefix)

So, to answer David's question, yes, you can use 192.168.0.0/16 
(255.255.0.0) as a unpartitioned subnet.  I wouldn't advise doing that 
(just because it's a massive subnet that doesn't need to really be that 
big), but you can do it.  If you really want to allocate /16s everywhere 
and keep it in the same overall IP supernet structure, do it in 
10.0.0.0/8 space, start from the bottom and work your way up.  This is 
very useful, as it permits for simpler things like firewall rules 
addressing the supernets for things like outbound NAT rules.

David, if you want to see how various ip masks and combinations work for 
various things, try installing ipcalc on your favorite linux distro. 
It's a little command line widget that for a given network address and 
subnet mask (or bits) will give you lots of useful information.  I use 
it all the time to double check my work when I'm splitting out IP 
supernets into funky subnets that I can't always recall precisely.

HTH



-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:29:24 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 10:29:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
Message-ID: <422274.13957.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you, 

I know that it is common practice to place network resources and workstations on separate sub nets. 

However in a home office there wont be a need, But I have to protect the servers from the kids computers and the viruses they get.  

David 

----- Original Message ----
From: Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:40:51 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] IPCOP install


Tony 
Bemus 
wrote:
> 
I 
believe 
you 
can 
not 
because 
the 
192.168.x.x 
ip 
range 
is 
a 
Class 
C
> 
range 
with 
a 
default 
subnet 
mask 
of 
255.255.255.0.  
If 
you 
need 
to 
use
> 
the 
255.255.0.0 
subnet 
then 
start 
with 
a 
class 
B 
address 
like
> 
172.16.x.x 
> 
    
Please 
go 
and 
read 
RFC1918 
(http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1918.html). 
192.168.0.0 
is 
a 
/16.  
172.16.0.0 
is 
a 
/12, 
NOT 
a 
/16, 
despite 
so 
many 
references 
getting 
it 
very 
very 
wrong.

I 
will 
also 
point 
out 
that 
Class 
A, 
B 
and 
C 
are 
very 
outdated 
nomenclature, 
as 
CIDR's 
been 
in 
effect 
for 
many 
years 
now.  
It's 
more 
common 
to 
refer 
to 
networks 
by 
their 
CIDR 
bitmask 
(/16, 
/20, 
/19, 
/24).

The 
3 
private 
subnet 
allocations 
are 
as 
follows 
(from 
the 
RFC):

10.0.0.0  
  
  
  
-  
 
10.255.255.255  
(10/8 
prefix)
172.16.0.0  
  
  
-  
 
172.31.255.255  
(172.16/12 
prefix)
192.168.0.0  
  
 
-  
 
192.168.255.255 
(192.168/16 
prefix)

So, 
to 
answer 
David's 
question, 
yes, 
you 
can 
use 
192.168.0.0/16 
(255.255.0.0) 
as 
a 
unpartitioned 
subnet.  
I 
wouldn't 
advise 
doing 
that 
(just 
because 
it's 
a 
massive 
subnet 
that 
doesn't 
need 
to 
really 
be 
that 
big), 
but 
you 
can 
do 
it.  
If 
you 
really 
want 
to 
allocate 
/16s 
everywhere 
and 
keep 
it 
in 
the 
same 
overall 
IP 
supernet 
structure, 
do 
it 
in 
10.0.0.0/8 
space, 
start 
from 
the 
bottom 
and 
work 
your 
way 
up.  
This 
is 
very 
useful, 
as 
it 
permits 
for 
simpler 
things 
like 
firewall 
rules 
addressing 
the 
supernets 
for 
things 
like 
outbound 
NAT 
rules.

David, 
if 
you 
want 
to 
see 
how 
various 
ip 
masks 
and 
combinations 
work 
for 
various 
things, 
try 
installing 
ipcalc 
on 
your 
favorite 
linux 
distro. 
It's 
a 
little 
command 
line 
widget 
that 
for 
a 
given 
network 
address 
and 
subnet 
mask 
(or 
bits) 
will 
give 
you 
lots 
of 
useful 
information.  
I 
use 
it 
all 
the 
time 
to 
double 
check 
my 
work 
when 
I'm 
splitting 
out 
IP 
supernets 
into 
funky 
subnets 
that 
I 
can't 
always 
recall 
precisely.

HTH



-- 
Joseph 
Bender
Bendorius 
Consulting
P: 
248-434-5580
F: 
248-434-5581
jcbender 
at 
bendorius 
com
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 20 13:43:14 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:43:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
>
> Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
> make Linux users look like a cult.


I haven't decided on graphical elements as of yet.  I am looking for
content right now.

Three elements outside of the graphical, which I will used to dress up
and fill.

1:  The Hook:  A large statement to get attention.  So far suggested is
"Tired of Vista Yet?"

2:  The Blurb:  A brief paragraph to explain what and who MDLUG is.  It
needs to be short sweet and light.  Every word has to work for a living.

3:  The Payoff:  Web address and meeting time and location.

The deal is it doesn't have to be just one flier.  If I get several good
suggestions I can make several fliers.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From wolfger at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 14:22:50 2008
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:22:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330802201122g4a8b8beenc7564e45f0f2b0a@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 20, 2008 12:24 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
> make Linux users look like a cult.

Shut up and drink the kool-aid. ;-)


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Wed Feb 20 14:24:52 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:24:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <422274.13957.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <422274.13957.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47BC7E84.9010907@arb.net>

Sounds like the kids need a new OS ;-)

You would not believe how many of my friends have called me this month 
alone because their kids got wacked on myspace with various malware. The 
only thing they all have in common - their kids use WinDoze.

-dave

David Lane wrote:

>Thank you, 
>
>I know that it is common practice to place network resources and workstations on separate sub nets. 
>
>However in a home office there wont be a need, But I have to protect the servers from the kids computers and the viruses they get.  
>
>David 
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com>
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:40:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] IPCOP install
>
>
>Tony 
>Bemus 
>wrote:
>  
>
>I 
>believe 
>you 
>can 
>not 
>because 
>the 
>192.168.x.x 
>ip 
>range 
>is 
>a 
>Class 
>C
>  
>
>range 
>with 
>a 
>default 
>subnet 
>mask 
>of 
>255.255.255.0.  
>If 
>you 
>need 
>to 
>use
>  
>
>the 
>255.255.0.0 
>subnet 
>then 
>start 
>with 
>a 
>class 
>B 
>address 
>like
>  
>
>172.16.x.x 
>  
>
>    
>Please 
>go 
>and 
>read 
>RFC1918 
>(http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1918.html). 
>192.168.0.0 
>is 
>a 
>/16.  
>172.16.0.0 
>is 
>a 
>/12, 
>NOT 
>a 
>/16, 
>despite 
>so 
>many 
>references 
>getting 
>it 
>very 
>very 
>wrong.
>
>I 
>will 
>also 
>point 
>out 
>that 
>Class 
>A, 
>B 
>and 
>C 
>are 
>very 
>outdated 
>nomenclature, 
>as 
>CIDR's 
>been 
>in 
>effect 
>for 
>many 
>years 
>now.  
>It's 
>more 
>common 
>to 
>refer 
>to 
>networks 
>by 
>their 
>CIDR 
>bitmask 
>(/16, 
>/20, 
>/19, 
>/24).
>
>The 
>3 
>private 
>subnet 
>allocations 
>are 
>as 
>follows 
>(from 
>the 
>RFC):
>
>10.0.0.0  
>  
>  
>  
>-  
> 
>10.255.255.255  
>(10/8 
>prefix)
>172.16.0.0  
>  
>  
>-  
> 
>172.31.255.255  
>(172.16/12 
>prefix)
>192.168.0.0  
>  
> 
>-  
> 
>192.168.255.255 
>(192.168/16 
>prefix)
>
>So, 
>to 
>answer 
>David's 
>question, 
>yes, 
>you 
>can 
>use 
>192.168.0.0/16 
>(255.255.0.0) 
>as 
>a 
>unpartitioned 
>subnet.  
>I 
>wouldn't 
>advise 
>doing 
>that 
>(just 
>because 
>it's 
>a 
>massive 
>subnet 
>that 
>doesn't 
>need 
>to 
>really 
>be 
>that 
>big), 
>but 
>you 
>can 
>do 
>it.  
>If 
>you 
>really 
>want 
>to 
>allocate 
>/16s 
>everywhere 
>and 
>keep 
>it 
>in 
>the 
>same 
>overall 
>IP 
>supernet 
>structure, 
>do 
>it 
>in 
>10.0.0.0/8 
>space, 
>start 
>from 
>the 
>bottom 
>and 
>work 
>your 
>way 
>up.  
>This 
>is 
>very 
>useful, 
>as 
>it 
>permits 
>for 
>simpler 
>things 
>like 
>firewall 
>rules 
>addressing 
>the 
>supernets 
>for 
>things 
>like 
>outbound 
>NAT 
>rules.
>
>David, 
>if 
>you 
>want 
>to 
>see 
>how 
>various 
>ip 
>masks 
>and 
>combinations 
>work 
>for 
>various 
>things, 
>try 
>installing 
>ipcalc 
>on 
>your 
>favorite 
>linux 
>distro. 
>It's 
>a 
>little 
>command 
>line 
>widget 
>that 
>for 
>a 
>given 
>network 
>address 
>and 
>subnet 
>mask 
>(or 
>bits) 
>will 
>give 
>you 
>lots 
>of 
>useful 
>information.  
>I 
>use 
>it 
>all 
>the 
>time 
>to 
>double 
>check 
>my 
>work 
>when 
>I'm 
>splitting 
>out 
>IP 
>supernets 
>into 
>funky 
>subnets 
>that 
>I 
>can't 
>always 
>recall 
>precisely.
>
>HTH
>
>
>
>  
>


From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Feb 20 15:07:57 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:07:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BC889D.60102@ameritech.net>

Properly, this should have been the start of a new thread.
Even more properly it should be on the mdlug-admin mailing list.
Several ideas about recruiting, (intergroup) networking, publicity, and
extra activities were discussed at last night's officers meeting.

We agreed that we would invite all interested members to participate in
these discussions, but it should be conducted on the admin list so as to
not bother those who just want to read technical discussions.
To this end I will post my comments there. Anyone who wants to read
along can follow the discussion in the archive
<http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-admin/>. If you want to participate
you must subscribe.
<http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-admin/>

Raymond McLaughlin


Garry Stahl wrote:
> I have been commissioned to create a flier for the club to pass around. 
> Other than the basic contact and website info what is wanted is a quick
> description of what we do, and a "hook" a line to get people to read the
> flier.
> 
> I am soliciting suggest for hooks and text.  I'll listen for either two
> week on till the talk dies down.  Pitch your ideas.
> 



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 15:18:52 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:18:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802201218i7d6f4c7dr8487f35e97e3595b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>  Three elements outside of the graphical, which I will used to dress up
>  and fill.
>
>  1:  The Hook:  A large statement to get attention.  So far suggested is
>  "Tired of Vista Yet?"

That's not necessarily the best way to promote Linux but I guess it
depends on what the purpose of MDLUG is.  If it's to help new Linux
users then ignore M$ as it's just preaching to the choir.  If it's to
help others understand computer technology and try out new things
(like Linux) then maybe not mention the OS at all.  The group has a
rather diverse skill set and helping to install Firefox and
Openoffice.org on XP and giving them a LiveCD is less scary to n00bs.
Your statement could be interpreted as offering XP installation help.

>  2:  The Blurb:  A brief paragraph to explain what and who MDLUG is.  It
>  needs to be short sweet and light.  Every word has to work for a living.
>
>  3:  The Payoff:  Web address and meeting time and location.

Are we targeting any specific age group?  Offering to mentor beginner
PC techs would be another option.  Silicon Alley Recyclers is doing
that:
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=11CF013C634EE508&p_docnum=1&s_dlid=DL0108022020165116113&s_ecproduct=SUB-FREE&s_ecprodtype=INSTANT&s_subterm=Subscription%20until%3A%2012%2F31%2F2015%2011%3A59%20PM&s_subexpires=12%2F31%2F2015%2011%3A59%20PM&s_username=cgpfree&s_accountid=AC0106122119130516735&s_upgradeable=no


From escalated at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 17:43:28 2008
From: escalated at gmail.com (merc)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:43:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802201218i7d6f4c7dr8487f35e97e3595b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802201218i7d6f4c7dr8487f35e97e3595b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9852fbe30802201443h32bb4793qb948aaf6ef12c9d7@mail.gmail.com>

I think focusing on open source/free software would be cool, everyone
loves free stuff.

Problem is, sometimes free stuff is equated with lower quality...maybe
something about being good/great/better/equal to closed source stuff.

Also, if there's any popular stuff out there that uses open
source/free software that our target audience might be familiar with
it would be good to mention.

I guess all of the above fits into the blurb part, the payoff should
be website/meeting time I guess.

I have no idea for a hook.

Also, I think tux or any other distro specific graphics should be left out.

My two cents. (also note that I am incapable of forming a complete
paragraph, only short sentences).


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Wed Feb 20 18:42:49 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:42:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <9852fbe30802201443h32bb4793qb948aaf6ef12c9d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802201218i7d6f4c7dr8487f35e97e3595b@mail.gmail.com>
	<9852fbe30802201443h32bb4793qb948aaf6ef12c9d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802201838150.30529@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008, merc wrote:

> I think focusing on open source/free software would be cool, everyone
> loves free stuff.
>
> Problem is, sometimes free stuff is equated with lower quality...maybe
> something about being good/great/better/equal to closed source stuff.
>
> Also, if there's any popular stuff out there that uses open
> source/free software that our target audience might be familiar with
> it would be good to mention.
>
> I guess all of the above fits into the blurb part, the payoff should
> be website/meeting time I guess.
>
> I have no idea for a hook.
>
> Also, I think tux or any other distro specific graphics should be left out.
>
> My two cents. (also note that I am incapable of forming a complete
> paragraph, only short sentences).


What is Linux?

Linux is:

Safe and secure!
Viruses?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!
Spyware?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!
Stolen IDs?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!

Tired of the kids deleting all those photos you took or your work folder?
Fuhgeddaboudit!!

Stable!
Tired of blue screen of death?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!
Tired of crashes?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!
Tired of corrupt disks?  Fuhgeddaboutdit!!

Try it! You'll like it!!


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Feb 20 08:38:06 2008
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:38:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com> (message from Aaron Kulkis on Wed, 
	20 Feb 2008 00:29:40 -0500)
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>

Aaron,

> The statement that a device *MUST* accept interference did
> not come about by forgetting to exclude it.
> It's an act of commission...which means someone TOOK AN ACTION to include
> that specification within federal law.

I disagree.

See 47 CFR 15.5, cited earlier in this thread.
The "Class C warning stickers"  omit the "that may be caused by
[authorized users of the frequency]".

Intended use of Part 15 radiators must yield to authorized
users of the radio spectrum, just as off-road-vehicle drivers
may not block public roads, and when intersecting a public road
from off-road must yield right of way to the drivers on the road,
but are not prohibitted from driving off-road (where otherwise allowed)
nor prohibitted (where otherwise allowed) from driving on the public road.



> When I was in Baghdad, we had equipment which takes practical
> advantage of these sorts of mandated weakness in electronic
> devices (these same requirements are in place in practically
> all countries where modern electronic devices are manufactured),
> so the same thing applies to electronics in Iraq as what you
> buy here in the States.

Much of the world has no recognized legal rights of the individual.
Much less has right of free speech, free press, or peaceable assembly.
I do not recognize the absence of such legal rights elsewhere as
the vacation of those rights in the United States.
Promoting rights of the individual and rule of law,
opposing violent suppression of same,
are among the reported reasons we are involved in Iraq.



The right of free speech, free press, the right
to peaceably assemble, and their enforcement,
the authority of the individual to listen, to observe,
and to communicate (when not infringing the rights
of others), has been demonstrated to be necessary to
keep a "good" state from reacting to its fear,
by becoming the tyranny that it would oppose.

IIRC, US civil servants (including the president)
annually take an oath "to defend the Constitution
of the United States against all enemies domestic
and foreign".



Armed bank robbers are notorious for speeding and ignoring driving laws.
A mandated kill-switch on automobiles is unlikely to
stop armed bank robbers, but very likely to benefit carjackers.
Murderers are not likely to observe "government-mandated
weakness" in their IEDs.
I hope our soldiers protection equipment does not depend
on any assumed compliance of IEDs with laws of government,
as I fear this would put our soldiers unnecessarily in harms way.
I hope our soldiers protection equipment does depend,
in this matter, on the laws of physics (mandated by God, not government)
of electromagnetic radiation with which IEDs must comply,
and compliance with which is not onerous to the honest citizen.

Concerned,
-- 
Bob

  "The liberties of our country are worth defending at all hazards. We have
   received them from our worthy ancestors; they purchased them for us with
   toil, treasure and blood. It will bring an everlasting infamy on the
   present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be
   wrested from us...or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and
   designing men."
	     -- Samuel Adams, 1771.


From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Wed Feb 20 20:59:33 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:59:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802202059.34174.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Wednesday 20 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

<war story proving nothing snipped>

> Does this now clarify for you WHY governments insist
> that consumer-grade devices be vulnerable to any
> interference which causes "undesired operation"

No, not at all.


-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Feb 20 23:41:37 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:41:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BD0101.4080408@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>> I have been commissioned to create a flier for the club to pass around.
>>  Other than the basic contact and website info what is wanted is a quick
>>  description of what we do, and a "hook" a line to get people to read the
>>  flier.
>>
>>  I am soliciting suggest for hooks and text.  I'll listen for either two
>>  week on till the talk dies down.  Pitch your ideas.
> 
> http://www.paperplane.org
> 
> Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
> make Linux users look like a cult.

You mean like the Ford blue-oval cult?
or the McDonald's Giant Yellow M's cult
Or the McDonald's clown cult?
or the Marathon red flying-horse cult?
or the meso-sexual Nabisco cult?
Or the Chrysler pentagon cult?





Q. What are the three sexes?

A: Male
<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Mars_symbol.svg>

  Female
<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Venus_symbol.svg>

  Nabisco
<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Nabisco.png>






From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 00:38:20 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:38:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Aaron,
> 
>> The statement that a device *MUST* accept interference did
>> not come about by forgetting to exclude it.
>> It's an act of commission...which means someone TOOK AN ACTION to include
>> that specification within federal law.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> See 47 CFR 15.5, cited earlier in this thread.
> The "Class C warning stickers"  omit the "that may be caused by
> [authorized users of the frequency]".
> 
> Intended use of Part 15 radiators must yield to authorized
> users of the radio spectrum, just as off-road-vehicle drivers
> may not block public roads, and when intersecting a public road
> from off-road must yield right of way to the drivers on the road,
> but are not prohibitted from driving off-road (where otherwise allowed)
> nor prohibitted (where otherwise allowed) from driving on the public road.
> 

And "authorized users of the frequency" means people
specifically granted permission by the government to
use that frequency.

Numbers 1 and 2 in line to be "authorized users"
are government entities: military and police.

> 
> 
>> When I was in Baghdad, we had equipment which takes practical
>> advantage of these sorts of mandated weakness in electronic
>> devices (these same requirements are in place in practically
>> all countries where modern electronic devices are manufactured),
>> so the same thing applies to electronics in Iraq as what you
>> buy here in the States.
> 
> Much of the world has no recognized legal rights of the individual.
> Much less has right of free speech, free press, or peaceable assembly.
> I do not recognize the absence of such legal rights elsewhere as
> the vacation of those rights in the United States.
> Promoting rights of the individual and rule of law,
> opposing violent suppression of same,
> are among the reported reasons we are involved in Iraq.

And it's coming...slower than we wish, but quite fast
considering the society in question.
(it took the U.S. over 10 years to replace the Confederation
of the Revolutionary War with the present Federalist system).

> 
> 
> 
> The right of free speech, free press, the right
> to peaceably assemble, and their enforcement,
> the authority of the individual to listen, to observe,
> and to communicate (when not infringing the rights
> of others), has been demonstrated to be necessary to
> keep a "good" state from reacting to its fear,
> by becoming the tyranny that it would oppose.
> 
> IIRC, US civil servants (including the president)
> annually take an oath "to defend the Constitution
> of the United States against all enemies domestic
> and foreign".

And then practically every elected official then proceeds
to trample upon that oath :-(

> 
> 
> 
> Armed bank robbers are notorious for speeding and ignoring driving laws.
> A mandated kill-switch on automobiles is unlikely to
> stop armed bank robbers, but very likely to benefit carjackers.
> Murderers are not likely to observe "government-mandated
> weakness" in their IEDs.

It turns out is that off-the-shelf wireless systems which
are resistant to jamming are quite expensive compared to the
typical cell phone or FRS radio...by pushing up the cost of
the equipment, it has an impact on the numbers of devices
employed.

As it is, we're not finding the enemy is using jamming-resistant
radios (despite their availability)...they're opting for
cheap cell-phones and bottom-of-the-line Motorola FRS radios,
even though THEY DO KNOW that the equipment they are using
is getting jammed by our equipment.


> I hope our soldiers protection equipment does not depend
> on any assumed compliance of IEDs with laws of government,

Very little is assumed.
The "picture" (for lack of a better term) is composed of
whatever data is available.

Initially, most IEDs were detonated by command wire.

When allied forces started training to look for command
wire (or signs of command wire being concealed), the
opposing forces started switching to wireless devices
as the arming mechanism.

When our engineers developed a variety of jamming
systems, they opposition forces have switched away
from wireless control back to command wire and
passive devices hooked to timers.

Everything is changing...and the best picture is
provided by whatever EOD picks up after a detonation
(the thing about a bomb is...other than the explosives
themselves...the rest of the bomb's components,
particularly the control mechanisms, are still all
around (although usually singed and twisted/crumpled),
and readily identified when collected up and spread
out on a table.

> as I fear this would put our soldiers unnecessarily in harms way.
> I hope our soldiers protection equipment does depend,
> in this matter, on the laws of physics (mandated by God, not government)
> of electromagnetic radiation with which IEDs must comply,
> and compliance with which is not onerous to the honest citizen.

Right now, the worst thing out there is a device called
an EFP (explosively formed projectile).  It's an upgrade
of a successful assassination method -- the platter charge
attached to the bottom of a man-hole cover.

An EFP is a steel can, normally set in concrete...the can
is filled with explosive, with the detonator near the front,
and then covered with a shallow dish made of copper (concave
into the can.  When the explosive charge blows, the copper
blows-outwards while still maintaining a bond with the
rim of the steel can...as pressure builds, the copper
distends (easily because it is a ductile metal)...the
center of the now outward-bowing bowl is travelling
faster than the edges...once the edges release/tear from
the rim of the can, they snap inwards...forming a very
slender projectile, which by this time is moving at a
speed in the range of Mach 4 to Mach 6.

As you can imagine, this is extremely devastating to
anything it runs into -- even an M1 tank :-/

These devices are triggered by $15 off the shelf
motion-detectors like you would use to turn on
exterior security lighting, or to automatically
turn office lights when someone enters a room,
and turn them off some time after the room is empty.

There are some counter-measures for this device,
but the effectiveness is variable.



> 
> Concerned,





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 00:39:52 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:39:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <200802202059.34174.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
	<200802202059.34174.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47BD0EA8.6040805@hotpop.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
> <war story proving nothing snipped>
> 
>> Does this now clarify for you WHY governments insist
>> that consumer-grade devices be vulnerable to any
>> interference which causes "undesired operation"
> 
> No, not at all.

Then you're just not understanding the mindset of
bureaucrats and other power-hungry maniacs who run
for elected office.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 01:27:59 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 01:27:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Jeff Hanson wrote:
>> Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
>> make Linux users look like a cult.
> 
> 
> I haven't decided on graphical elements as of yet.  I am looking for
> content right now.
> 
> Three elements outside of the graphical, which I will used to dress up
> and fill.
> 
> 1:  The Hook:  A large statement to get attention.  So far suggested is
> "Tired of Vista Yet?"

Are you:

* TIRED of the endless forced upgrade cycle because your
current computer can't run new software?

* TIRED of buying faster and more powerful computers
every 3 years but getting slower and slower performance?

* TIRED of "security software" that still leaves you afraid?

* TIRED of buying software from a company whose only real
concern is how much money they can extort out of yours?


> 
> 2:  The Blurb:  A brief paragraph to explain what and who MDLUG is.  It
> needs to be short sweet and light.  Every word has to work for a living.
> 
> 3:  The Payoff:  Web address and meeting time and location.
> 
> The deal is it doesn't have to be just one flier.  If I get several good
> suggestions I can make several fliers.
> 
> 





From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Feb 21 02:22:19 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 02:22:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net> <47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802202322s3aabc73as97b59e8ea7a7bd97@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 1:27 AM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>  * TIRED of the endless forced upgrade cycle because your
>  current computer can't run new software?
>
>  * TIRED of buying faster and more powerful computers
>  every 3 years but getting slower and slower performance?
>
>  * TIRED of "security software" that still leaves you afraid?
>
>  * TIRED of buying software from a company whose only real
>  concern is how much money they can extort out of yours?


M$ tried the negative campaign at the corporate level with Linux.  It
didn't work.  CIOs wrote them off as biased.  Being positive by
offering both short and long-term solutions and education is what sets
enthusiasts apart from zealots.

* Is your computer showing it's age faster than you expected?
* Have your programs lost their edge?
* Do you feel technology has left you behind and are looking for a
friendly way to catch up?
* Are you dismayed that computer store staff always seem to want you
to throw money at the problem and wish you had somewhere to go for
practical advice?

Now doesn't that sound a lot better?


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 03:03:26 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:03:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802202322s3aabc73as97b59e8ea7a7bd97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
	<b02c40e90802202322s3aabc73as97b59e8ea7a7bd97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BD304E.8070009@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 1:27 AM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>>  * TIRED of the endless forced upgrade cycle because your
>>  current computer can't run new software?
>>
>>  * TIRED of buying faster and more powerful computers
>>  every 3 years but getting slower and slower performance?
>>
>>  * TIRED of "security software" that still leaves you afraid?
>>
>>  * TIRED of buying software from a company whose only real
>>  concern is how much money they can extort out of yours?
> 
> 
> M$ tried the negative campaign at the corporate level with Linux.  It
> didn't work.

Because MS lacks credibility.

 >               CIOs wrote them off as biased.

Of course.
In contrast, what money do MDLUG members stand to make or lose by
someone else's choice of OS?

 >                                               Being positive by
> offering both short and long-term solutions and education is what sets
> enthusiasts apart from zealots.
> 
> * Is your computer showing it's age faster than you expected?
> * Have your programs lost their edge?
> * Do you feel technology has left you behind and are looking for a
> friendly way to catch up?
> * Are you dismayed that computer store staff always seem to want you
> to throw money at the problem and wish you had somewhere to go for
> practical advice?
> 
> Now doesn't that sound a lot better?

Not necessarily.

With the first two re-written lines, you're not fully
tapping into the latent frustrations of the typical
Windows-using business-owner.

And most people operate more by "away from pain" strategies
more than "towards gain" strategies.

One of the keys is to gain rapport with those feelings
of frustration which are common among the Windows
community, and then amplify them to a level which compels
seeking out something which provides them with relief
from the frustration and mental anguish (caused by virus
headaches, financial outflows, etc.)


Another thing to do is run MULTIPLE flyers...




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 21 13:18:40 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:18:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>
	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>


>Right now, the worst thing out there is a device called
>an EFP (explosively formed projectile).  It's an upgrade
>of a successful assassination method -- the platter charge
>attached to the bottom of a man-hole cover.
>
>An EFP is a steel can, normally set in concrete...the can
>is filled with explosive, with the detonator near the front,
>and then covered with a shallow dish made of copper (concave
>into the can.  When the explosive charge blows, the copper
>blows-outwards while still maintaining a bond with the
>rim of the steel can...as pressure builds, the copper
>distends (easily because it is a ductile metal)...the
>center of the now outward-bowing bowl is travelling
>faster than the edges...once the edges release/tear from
>the rim of the can, they snap inwards...forming a very
>slender projectile, which by this time is moving at a
>speed in the range of Mach 4 to Mach 6.
>
>As you can imagine, this is extremely devastating to
>anything it runs into -- even an M1 tank :-/
>  
>
I think you missed one part of the physics of the copper in a EFP - it 
becomes molten at that point and acts like a plasma cutter when it comes 
in contact with simple armor. That is why the M1 and other advanced 
systems employ composite armor in many places - steel on the outside for 
conventional projectiles, and other layers of other materials 
(classified) to stop the plasma injection. The M60 in the Nam had simple 
steel armor easily penetrated by the Russian RPG with their cone shaped 
copper in the explosive, so the troops would get badly burned from the 
molten copper injecting into the tank. This copper at that point did 
little damage other than burn everything.  So, reactive armor panels 
were added to the outside of the steel - basically explosive charges 
that would detonate when the molten copper entered them, thus blowing 
the plasma away.
-dave

PS - the demolition crews world wide use this technique to topple steel 
structures like old buildings - they have sticks of plastic explosive 
about 2.5" in diameter with about a 1" copper piece in the shape of a 90 
degree right angle running the length of the explosive. It will cut 
through quite a chunk of structural steel.


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 21 13:27:50 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:27:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BDC2A6.4010001@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

>Garry Stahl wrote:
>  
>
>>Jeff Hanson wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
>>>make Linux users look like a cult.
>>>      
>>>
>>I haven't decided on graphical elements as of yet.  I am looking for
>>content right now.
>>
>>Three elements outside of the graphical, which I will used to dress up
>>and fill.
>>
>>1:  The Hook:  A large statement to get attention.  So far suggested is
>>"Tired of Vista Yet?"
>>    
>>
>
>Are you:
>
>* TIRED of the endless forced upgrade cycle because your
>current computer can't run new software?
>
>* TIRED of buying faster and more powerful computers
>every 3 years but getting slower and slower performance?
>
>* TIRED of "security software" that still leaves you afraid?
>
>* TIRED of buying software from a company whose only real
>concern is how much money they can extort out of yours?
>
You hit the nail on the head. I love the deer in the headlights look I 
get every time some Windows user complains about how their machine gets 
slower and slower. The look comes when I explain it is just as fast as 
when they bought it - faster than they can read or type, and their 
software is the same version as 3 years before, so the only thing 
changed is the 130,000 plus malwares their AV must scan for on every I/O 
operation - that it was maybe 80,000 when they bought it, and who knows 
how many in 3 more years...   The look is priceless. Then, I usually 
explain if they remove AV it will suddenly be faster than when they 
bought it, but they can't connect to any network or share any files with 
anyone because it will be minutes before they are infected on the 
internet without AV.

Too bad they don't see the light.

Hey, maybe that should be the marketing campaign for Linux !  "Don't 
dump your 3 year old PC because it has gotten slow, install Linux and 
get faster secure performance in excess of that you had when it was new."

-dave


From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Thu Feb 21 14:32:02 2008
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:32:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>
	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>


> I think you missed one part of the physics of the copper in a EFP - it 
> becomes molten at that point and acts like a plasma cutter when it comes 
> in contact with simple armor. That is why the M1 and other advanced 
> systems employ composite armor in many places - steel on the outside for 
> conventional projectiles, and other layers of other materials 
> (classified) to stop the plasma injection. The M60 in the Nam had simple 
> steel armor easily penetrated by the Russian RPG with their cone shaped 
> copper in the explosive, so the troops would get badly burned from the 
> molten copper injecting into the tank. This copper at that point did 
> little damage other than burn everything.  So, reactive armor panels 
> were added to the outside of the steel - basically explosive charges 
> that would detonate when the molten copper entered them, thus blowing 
> the plasma away.
> -dave
>
> PS - the demolition crews world wide use this technique to topple steel 
> structures like old buildings - they have sticks of plastic explosive 
> about 2.5" in diameter with about a 1" copper piece in the shape of a 90 
> degree right angle running the length of the explosive. It will cut 
> through quite a chunk of structural steel.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlu
For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or 
penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not 
a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.

The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on 
Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it 
of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.

The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a 
fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet 
to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at 
the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from 
substantially greater distances.

The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A 
half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is 
effective from at least tens of yards.

That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor 
works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor 
detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a 
coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective. 
Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active 
armor is ineffective against an EFP.

If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space 
Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can 
contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment 
field is a big flaky.

Allen



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 21 16:29:20 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:29:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>


>For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or 
>penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not 
>a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.
>
>The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on 
>Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it 
>of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.
>
>The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a 
>fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet 
>to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at 
>the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from 
>substantially greater distances.
>
>The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A 
>half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is 
>effective from at least tens of yards.
>
>That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor 
>works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor 
>detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a 
>coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective. 
>Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active 
>armor is ineffective against an EFP.
>
>If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space 
>Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can 
>contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment 
>field is a big flaky.
>
>Allen
>
WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been 
effective in confusing me ;-)

-dave


From tcameron at redhat.com  Thu Feb 21 16:39:10 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:39:10 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dave Arbogast wrote:
|> For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or
|> penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not
|> a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.
|>
|> The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on
|> Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it
|> of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.
|>
|> The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a
|> fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet
|> to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at
|> the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from
|> substantially greater distances.
|>
|> The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A
|> half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is
|> effective from at least tens of yards.
|>
|> That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor
|> works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor
|> detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a
|> coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective.
|> Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active
|> armor is ineffective against an EFP.
|>
|> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
|> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
|> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
|> field is a big flaky.
|>
|> Allen
|>
| WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
| effective in confusing me ;-)

LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.

- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHve9+mzle50YHwaARArAGAKDQMtGLZl96dc8y244qHUI75RxkkACcDsNn
S4mQlcWcghObL/DRo1sNnBg=
=8Ptp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 21 16:40:02 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:40:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>
	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>


>|> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
>|> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
>|> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
>|> field is a big flaky.
>|>
>|> Allen
>|>
>| WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
>| effective in confusing me ;-)
>
>LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
>Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.
>
>- --
>Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>
LOL !!  Would not be the first US Citizen to be hauled there w/o court, 
trial, lawyer, etc.

-dave


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 20:21:55 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:21:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>
	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BE23B3.4050807@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> Right now, the worst thing out there is a device called
>> an EFP (explosively formed projectile).  It's an upgrade
>> of a successful assassination method -- the platter charge
>> attached to the bottom of a man-hole cover.
>>
>> An EFP is a steel can, normally set in concrete...the can
>> is filled with explosive, with the detonator near the front,
>> and then covered with a shallow dish made of copper (concave
>> into the can.  When the explosive charge blows, the copper
>> blows-outwards while still maintaining a bond with the
>> rim of the steel can...as pressure builds, the copper
>> distends (easily because it is a ductile metal)...the
>> center of the now outward-bowing bowl is travelling
>> faster than the edges...once the edges release/tear from
>> the rim of the can, they snap inwards...forming a very
>> slender projectile, which by this time is moving at a
>> speed in the range of Mach 4 to Mach 6.
>>
>> As you can imagine, this is extremely devastating to
>> anything it runs into -- even an M1 tank :-/
>>  
>>
> I think you missed one part of the physics of the copper in a EFP - it 
> becomes molten at that point and acts like a plasma cutter when it comes 
> in contact with simple armor.

 From what I've learned about "terminal ballistic", all that really
matters is the momentum.

For example, when figuring out the penetration ability of a
shaped charge (bazooka, law, RPG, panzer-faust), the fact that
the copper cone is vaporized doesn't change the calculations.

They just do the calculation as if it were a slug of copper
travelling at the speed of the plasma jet.


 > That is why the M1 and other advanced
> systems employ composite armor in many places - steel on the outside for 
> conventional projectiles, and other layers of other materials 
> (classified) to stop the plasma injection. The M60 in the Nam had simple 
> steel armor easily penetrated by the Russian RPG with their cone shaped 
> copper in the explosive, so the troops would get badly burned from the 
> molten copper injecting into the tank. This copper at that point did 
> little damage other than burn everything.  So, reactive armor panels 
> were added to the outside of the steel - basically explosive charges 

Right.
Reactive armor is what defeats shaped charges -- the explosive
in the reactive armor prevents the shaped charge from properly
forming a plasma jet against the vehicle armor.

The composite armor you speak of is more for defeating solid shot.

> that would detonate when the molten copper entered them, thus blowing 
> the plasma away.
> -dave
> 
> PS - the demolition crews world wide use this technique to topple steel 
> structures like old buildings - they have sticks of plastic explosive 
> about 2.5" in diameter with about a 1" copper piece in the shape of a 90 
> degree right angle running the length of the explosive. It will cut 
> through quite a chunk of structural steel.

shaped charges are fun ;-)





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 01:50:14 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:50:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>
	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <47BE70A6.6020905@hotpop.com>

Thomas Cameron (Red Hat) wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Dave Arbogast wrote:
> |> For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or
> |> penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not
> |> a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.
> |>
> |> The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on
> |> Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it
> |> of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.
> |>
> |> The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a
> |> fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet
> |> to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at
> |> the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from
> |> substantially greater distances.
> |>
> |> The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A
> |> half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is
> |> effective from at least tens of yards.
> |>
> |> That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor
> |> works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor
> |> detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a
> |> coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective.
> |> Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active
> |> armor is ineffective against an EFP.
> |>
> |> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
> |> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
> |> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
> |> field is a big flaky.
> |>
> |> Allen
> |>
> | WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
> | effective in confusing me ;-)
> 
> LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
> Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.

No classified information there.

The enemy is fully aware that the EFP has a longer effective
range than the jet of a shaped charge.





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 01:50:05 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:50:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <47BE709D.7010600@hotpop.com>

allen wrote:
>> I think you missed one part of the physics of the copper in a EFP - it 
>> becomes molten at that point and acts like a plasma cutter when it comes 
>> in contact with simple armor. That is why the M1 and other advanced 
>> systems employ composite armor in many places - steel on the outside for 
>> conventional projectiles, and other layers of other materials 
>> (classified) to stop the plasma injection. The M60 in the Nam had simple 
>> steel armor easily penetrated by the Russian RPG with their cone shaped 
>> copper in the explosive, so the troops would get badly burned from the 
>> molten copper injecting into the tank. This copper at that point did 
>> little damage other than burn everything.  So, reactive armor panels 
>> were added to the outside of the steel - basically explosive charges 
>> that would detonate when the molten copper entered them, thus blowing 
>> the plasma away.
>> -dave
>>
>> PS - the demolition crews world wide use this technique to topple steel 
>> structures like old buildings - they have sticks of plastic explosive 
>> about 2.5" in diameter with about a 1" copper piece in the shape of a 90 
>> degree right angle running the length of the explosive. It will cut 
>> through quite a chunk of structural steel.
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlu
> For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or 
> penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not 
> a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.
> 
> The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on 
> Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it 
> of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.
> 
> The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a 
> fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet 
> to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at 
> the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from 
> substantially greater distances.
> 
> The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A 
> half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is 
> effective from at least tens of yards.
> 
> That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor 
> works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor 
> detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a 
> coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective. 
> Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active 
> armor is ineffective against an EFP.

Everything Allen wrote above is 100% correct to the best
of my knowledge.





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 01:50:23 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:50:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> |> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
>> |> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
>> |> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
>> |> field is a big flaky.
>> |>
>> |> Allen
>> |>
>> | WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
>> | effective in confusing me ;-)
>>
>> LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
>> Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.
>>
>> - --
>> Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>>
> LOL !!  Would not be the first US Citizen to be hauled there w/o court, 
> trial, lawyer, etc.

Of course, to get such special treatment, you have to work
at it -- specifically, to train with, and swear allegience
to people who are at war with the United States.

At that point, you're no longer a civilian, and you fall
under Geneva Convention rules.  If you choose to carry out
your struggle without wearing a uniform (which can be as
simple as an identification armband), or do other things
such as setting up military facilities among the civilian
populace, and other ways of deliberately causing your
enemy's actions against you to maximize civilian casualties,
or placing military equipment in protected places (such as
hospitals, religious sites, etc.) then you're a war
criminal, and even the Geneva Convention classfies you as
an "illegal combatant" and you have NO protections --
basically, the life and well-being of an illegal combatant
are at the whim of his or her captors.

Legal combatants must be freed upon the end of hostilities,
as they are not detained for reason of wrong-doing, only to
prevent them from returning to the fight.

Illegal combatants have no such rights.

During WW2, several Germans, along with one U.S. citizen
were landed on the Atlantic Coast, for the purpose of
committing sabotage against American industry.

As they were all dressed in civilian clothes, and wore
nothing to identify themselves as combatants, they
all (including the U.S. Citizen) got the Jose Padilla
treatment.  6 of the 8 were executed, including the
U.S. citizen.

Similarly, although many are reluctant to admit it,
when a bunch of aviators participated in "The Great
Escape" from a German POW camp (yes, the movie is
based on a real event, and quite accurately), and
most wore civilian clothing (or uniforms modified
to look like civilian clothing), and many were
captured, with 50 executed, IN THIS INCIDENT the
Gestapo actually was operating within the Geneva
Convention.







From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Feb 22 10:53:04 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:53:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1

Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
is possible.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tcameron at redhat.com  Fri Feb 22 10:55:03 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:55:03 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
	<47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BEF057.9030700@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Garry Stahl wrote:
|
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
|
| Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
| computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
| encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
| is possible.
|

Best.  Subject.  Ever.

- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHvvBXmzle50YHwaARAvzHAKC188sTaYu0T6SjaKkz2E8jkYW88gCgk2D4
5Z1PMQz5T6MQVKL8IJwDZKo=
=VYpk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From wolfger at gmail.com  Fri Feb 22 11:13:51 2008
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:13:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BEF057.9030700@redhat.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>
	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com> <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
	<47BEF057.9030700@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330802220813w40e4ce66y9689948a59134037@mail.gmail.com>

I was half expecting this to be viagra spam...

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Cameron (Red Hat)
<tcameron at redhat.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>
>  Garry Stahl wrote:
>  |
>  http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>  |
>  | Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>  | computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>  | encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>  | is possible.
>  |
>
>  Best.  Subject.  Ever.
>
>  - --
>  Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>  Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
>  512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax
>
>  Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
>  http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>  Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
>  Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
>  iD8DBQFHvvBXmzle50YHwaARAvzHAKC188sTaYu0T6SjaKkz2E8jkYW88gCgk2D4
>  5Z1PMQz5T6MQVKL8IJwDZKo=
>  =VYpk
>  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  mdlug mailing list
>  mdlug at mdlug.org
>  http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer


From tcameron at redhat.com  Fri Feb 22 11:27:31 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:27:31 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330802220813w40e4ce66y9689948a59134037@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
	<47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>	<47BEF057.9030700@redhat.com>
	<3b00b3330802220813w40e4ce66y9689948a59134037@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BEF7F3.3020101@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I can see it now...  "Honest, honey, it wasn't me, I swear!!!"  With the
thought bublle:  "I KNOW it was encrypted, how did she find out?!?!"

Wolfger wrote:
| I was half expecting this to be viagra spam...
|
| On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Cameron (Red Hat)
| <tcameron at redhat.com> wrote:
|> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|>  Hash: SHA1
|>
|>
|>  Garry Stahl wrote:
|>  |
|>
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
|>  |
|>  | Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
|>  | computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
|>  | encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready,
but it
|>  | is possible.
|>  |
|>
|>  Best.  Subject.  Ever.
|>
|>  - --
|>  Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
|>  Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
|>  512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax
|>
|>  Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
|>  http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
|>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
|>  Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
|>  Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
|>
|>  iD8DBQFHvvBXmzle50YHwaARAvzHAKC188sTaYu0T6SjaKkz2E8jkYW88gCgk2D4
|>  5Z1PMQz5T6MQVKL8IJwDZKo=
|>  =VYpk
|>  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
|>
|>
|> _______________________________________________
|>  mdlug mailing list
|>  mdlug at mdlug.org
|>  http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
|>
|
|
|


- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHvvfzmzle50YHwaARAhqrAKC89o+ehkvcFo8BxYt+jBVBRv9gpwCgtg8v
Auichs99RbiT6Eoag7GYWZw=
=28X+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb 22 12:06:27 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:06:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>
	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

>Dave Arbogast wrote:
>  
>
>>>|> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
>>>|> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
>>>|> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
>>>|> field is a big flaky.
>>>|>
>>>|> Allen
>>>|>
>>>| WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
>>>| effective in confusing me ;-)
>>>
>>>LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
>>>Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.
>>>
>>>- --
>>>Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>LOL !!  Would not be the first US Citizen to be hauled there w/o court, 
>>trial, lawyer, etc.
>>    
>>
>
>Of course, to get such special treatment, you have to work
>at it -- specifically, to train with, and swear allegience
>to people who are at war with the United States.
>
>At that point, you're no longer a civilian, and you fall
>under Geneva Convention rules.  If you choose to carry out
>your struggle without wearing a uniform (which can be as
>simple as an identification armband), or do other things
>such as setting up military facilities among the civilian
>populace, and other ways of deliberately causing your
>enemy's actions against you to maximize civilian casualties,
>or placing military equipment in protected places (such as
>hospitals, religious sites, etc.) then you're a war
>criminal, and even the Geneva Convention classfies you as
>an "illegal combatant" and you have NO protections --
>basically, the life and well-being of an illegal combatant
>are at the whim of his or her captors.
>
>Legal combatants must be freed upon the end of hostilities,
>as they are not detained for reason of wrong-doing, only to
>prevent them from returning to the fight.
>
>Illegal combatants have no such rights.
>
>During WW2, several Germans, along with one U.S. citizen
>were landed on the Atlantic Coast, for the purpose of
>committing sabotage against American industry.
>
>As they were all dressed in civilian clothes, and wore
>nothing to identify themselves as combatants, they
>all (including the U.S. Citizen) got the Jose Padilla
>treatment.  6 of the 8 were executed, including the
>U.S. citizen.
>
>Similarly, although many are reluctant to admit it,
>when a bunch of aviators participated in "The Great
>Escape" from a German POW camp (yes, the movie is
>based on a real event, and quite accurately), and
>most wore civilian clothing (or uniforms modified
>to look like civilian clothing), and many were
>captured, with 50 executed, IN THIS INCIDENT the
>Gestapo actually was operating within the Geneva
>Convention.
>
>  
>
Then we have become as bad as Joseph Stalin when we ignore our 
Constitution and the Geneva Convention. These "Enemy Combatants" held in 
Cuba were denied protection under the Geneva Convention for YEARS !!  
There were their Red Cross visits ? Don't get me started about water 
boarding either.

We committed various war crimes in W.W.II as well. The fire bombing of 
the German civilian population was intentional and criminal. So were the 
to atomic bombs vaporizing civilians in Japan, putting US citizens in 
prison w/o trial because they had Japanese heritage...  There are more 
examples I am sure.

Part of the responsibility of being the only current super power is 
sticking to the rule of law. We have not been in this war - FISA is 
another good example. Safety is of no value when you trample the very 
liberty from tyranny you are combating. The end does not justify the 
means any more for them than it does for us.

-dave

PS - Stalin literally worked countless former German POW's to death 
after the war. I saw some of the fruits of their forced labor in my 
wife's home town in Ukraine.....  we went on a short trip outside of 
town. The road was the best road I have seen there, but was in the 
middle of nowhere and went to a small group of "summer residences". I 
asked about this road and the laughing response was "It is the Nazi 
road. It has 4m deep foundation rather than normal 1.2m. It was made 
after the war by the German POW's"


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb 22 12:38:05 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:38:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>
	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com> <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>
>  Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>  computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>  encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>  is possible.

The security implications of loading the decryption keys into DRAM is
something I though of myself a while ago.  I hadn't realized that the
data retention was that long without power or that cooling them could
increase the data lifetime.  My theory was that it would be possible
to read the memory bus while the system was active and pick up the
keys that way.  According to the report you can chill the DRAM and
just put it in another system for reading which makes encryption about
as useful as a chastity belt.  I disagree with Steven Sprague about
the effectiveness of hardware-based encryption devices as they also
have to load the key making them just as vulnerable.  The only
advantage they offer is a more complicated architecture that would
have to be reverse engineered first so that an attacker would know
where to look before attempting to find the key (obfuscation).  I was
thinking that storing the key in a CPU register would be better as the
complexity and small feature size would make it a lot harder to
extract.  OpenBSD, IIRC, randomizes memory locations so theoretically
it would be more difficult to find a key (again obfuscation).  I think
the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
before halting or suspending.


From gib at juno.com  Fri Feb 22 13:52:58 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:52:58 GMT
Subject: [mdlug]  Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
Message-ID: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>

 
Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a statement  was made that they recovered the laptop and the encryption was not broken.  I think that once the bad guys have a laptop they can make a copy of the data and then they can allow the laptop to be returned.  They can take their time cracking the data.


-- "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>
>  Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>  computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>  encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>  is possible.

The security implications of loading the decryption keys into DRAM is
something I though of myself a while ago.  I hadn't realized that the
data retention was that long without power or that cooling them could
increase the data lifetime.  My theory was that it would be possible
to read the memory bus while the system was active and pick up the
keys that way.  According to the report you can chill the DRAM and
just put it in another system for reading which makes encryption about
as useful as a chastity belt.  I disagree with Steven Sprague about
the effectiveness of hardware-based encryption devices as they also
have to load the key making them just as vulnerable.  The only
advantage they offer is a more complicated architecture that would
have to be reverse engineered first so that an attacker would know
where to look before attempting to find the key (obfuscation).  I was
thinking that storing the key in a CPU register would be better as the
complexity and small feature size would make it a lot harder to
extract.  OpenBSD, IIRC, randomizes memory locations so theoretically
it would be more difficult to find a key (again obfuscation).  I think
the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
before halting or suspending.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on using seach engines to expand your business.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifVr4L6N73yOzTImEQJlllblPjibWxajC7Lp2ebNLBWDxzFq/


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 22 13:49:28 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:49:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
	<47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BF1938.4000705@ameritech.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>>
>>  Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>>  computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>>  encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>>  is possible.
> 
> The security implications of loading the decryption keys into DRAM is
> something I though of myself a while ago.  I hadn't realized that the
> data retention was that long without power or that cooling them could
> increase the data lifetime.

I was likewise surprised by this. It seems like motherboard
manufacturers adding a "zero all memory" routine to power up, reset,
and power down routines could go quite a ways toward mitigating this
concern.

For that matter, couldn't a "key flush" routine be added to umount
routines to zero the memory location that held the key. DRAM is not
magnetic media that retains "shadows" of its previous states.

> My theory was that it would be possible
> to read the memory bus while the system was active and pick up the
> keys that way. 

But that would require physical access to the memory bus, in which case
you are "owned" from the get go.

<SNIP>

> The only
> advantage they offer is a more complicated architecture that would
> have to be reverse engineered first so that an attacker would know
> where to look before attempting to find the key (obfuscation).  I was
> thinking that storing the key in a CPU register would be better as the
> complexity and small feature size would make it a lot harder to
> extract.  OpenBSD, IIRC, randomizes memory locations so theoretically
> it would be more difficult to find a key (again obfuscation).

Obfuscation wouldn't provide much protection. I've seen other article
mentioning researcher who's developed algorithms for finding crypto keys
in memory dumps, including "error correction" schemes to compensate for
bit rot.

> I think
> the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
> before halting or suspending.

Ah, yes that's my suggestion, you did beat me to it.

I think an understated aspect of this situation is that it pertains to
encrypted filesystems which were "very recently" mounted. I think
something to be taken away from this is that an encrypted file system
that's "always mounted" isn't really very protected.

 This also speaks well of powering notebook computers all the way down,
rather than suspending, before transport, if the security of encrypted
information is important.

Raymond McLaughlin



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 14:00:15 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:00:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
Message-ID: <185566.86775.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It is good programming practice to zero memory resources before you release them.

David 

----- Original Message ----
From: Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 1:49:28 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Dick encryption


Jeff 
Hanson 
wrote:
> 
On 
Fri, 
Feb 
22, 
2008 
at 
10:53 
AM, 
Garry 
Stahl 
<tesral at comcast.net> 
wrote:
>> 
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>>
>>  
Network 
World 
article 
pointing 
out 
that 
who 
controls 
the 
physical
>>  
computer, 
controls 
the 
data 
in 
it.  
There 
is 
a 
method 
to 
crack 
disk
>>  
encryption.  
It 
ain't 
easy, 
and 
you 
would 
have 
to 
have 
it 
ready, 
but 
it
>>  
is 
possible.
> 
> 
The 
security 
implications 
of 
loading 
the 
decryption 
keys 
into 
DRAM 
is
> 
something 
I 
though 
of 
myself 
a 
while 
ago.  
I 
hadn't 
realized 
that 
the
> 
data 
retention 
was 
that 
long 
without 
power 
or 
that 
cooling 
them 
could
> 
increase 
the 
data 
lifetime.

I 
was 
likewise 
surprised 
by 
this. 
It 
seems 
like 
motherboard
manufacturers 
adding 
a 
"zero 
all 
memory" 
routine 
to 
power 
up, 
reset,
and 
power 
down 
routines 
could 
go 
quite 
a 
ways 
toward 
mitigating 
this
concern.

For 
that 
matter, 
couldn't 
a 
"key 
flush" 
routine 
be 
added 
to 
umount
routines 
to 
zero 
the 
memory 
location 
that 
held 
the 
key. 
DRAM 
is 
not
magnetic 
media 
that 
retains 
"shadows" 
of 
its 
previous 
states.

> 
My 
theory 
was 
that 
it 
would 
be 
possible
> 
to 
read 
the 
memory 
bus 
while 
the 
system 
was 
active 
and 
pick 
up 
the
> 
keys 
that 
way. 

But 
that 
would 
require 
physical 
access 
to 
the 
memory 
bus, 
in 
which 
case
you 
are 
"owned" 
from 
the 
get 
go.

<SNIP>

> 
The 
only
> 
advantage 
they 
offer 
is 
a 
more 
complicated 
architecture 
that 
would
> 
have 
to 
be 
reverse 
engineered 
first 
so 
that 
an 
attacker 
would 
know
> 
where 
to 
look 
before 
attempting 
to 
find 
the 
key 
(obfuscation).  
I 
was
> 
thinking 
that 
storing 
the 
key 
in 
a 
CPU 
register 
would 
be 
better 
as 
the
> 
complexity 
and 
small 
feature 
size 
would 
make 
it 
a 
lot 
harder 
to
> 
extract.  
OpenBSD, 
IIRC, 
randomizes 
memory 
locations 
so 
theoretically
> 
it 
would 
be 
more 
difficult 
to 
find 
a 
key 
(again 
obfuscation).

Obfuscation 
wouldn't 
provide 
much 
protection. 
I've 
seen 
other 
article
mentioning 
researcher 
who's 
developed 
algorithms 
for 
finding 
crypto 
keys
in 
memory 
dumps, 
including 
"error 
correction" 
schemes 
to 
compensate 
for
bit 
rot.

> 
I 
think
> 
the 
Linux 
solution 
is 
to 
have 
the 
kernel 
wipe 
entire 
memory 
space
> 
before 
halting 
or 
suspending.

Ah, 
yes 
that's 
my 
suggestion, 
you 
did 
beat 
me 
to 
it.

I 
think 
an 
understated 
aspect 
of 
this 
situation 
is 
that 
it 
pertains 
to
encrypted 
filesystems 
which 
were 
"very 
recently" 
mounted. 
I 
think
something 
to 
be 
taken 
away 
from 
this 
is 
that 
an 
encrypted 
file 
system
that's 
"always 
mounted" 
isn't 
really 
very 
protected.

 
This 
also 
speaks 
well 
of 
powering 
notebook 
computers 
all 
the 
way 
down,
rather 
than 
suspending, 
before 
transport, 
if 
the 
security 
of 
encrypted
information 
is 
important.

Raymond 
McLaughlin

_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 22 13:59:10 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:59:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47BF1B7E.3070609@ameritech.net>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
> Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier
> to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data
> by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
> I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The
> inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a statement
> was made that they recovered the laptop and the encryption was not
> broken.  I think that once the bad guys have a laptop they can make
> a copy of the data and then they can allow the laptop to be returned.
> They can take their time cracking the data.

The questions become: How much time? and How much resources (computing
power). Remember that every bit added to a key's length *doubles* the
number of possible values of the key, hence doubling the difficulty of
brute recovery. I've seen estimates putting the power required to break
a 256 bit key at something like "all the computers in the world running
nonstop for the rest of the age of the universe." But I'm not sure how
good the starting numbers were.




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb 22 14:11:24 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:11:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <47BF1B7E.3070609@ameritech.net>
References: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
	<47BF1B7E.3070609@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47BF1E5C.7080501@arb.net>



Raymond McLaughlin wrote:

>gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
>
>> 
>>Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier
>>to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data
>>by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
>>I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The
>>inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a statement
>>was made that they recovered the laptop and the encryption was not
>>broken.  I think that once the bad guys have a laptop they can make
>>a copy of the data and then they can allow the laptop to be returned.
>>They can take their time cracking the data.
>>    
>>
>
>The questions become: How much time? and How much resources (computing
>power). Remember that every bit added to a key's length *doubles* the
>number of possible values of the key, hence doubling the difficulty of
>brute recovery. I've seen estimates putting the power required to break
>a 256 bit key at something like "all the computers in the world running
>nonstop for the rest of the age of the universe." But I'm not sure how
>good the starting numbers were.
>
Yeah, by far easier to find some weakness in the architecture and 
exploit that.

-dave


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb 22 14:15:06 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:15:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165478@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: gib at juno.com

> Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier 
> to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the 
> data by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely 
> safe, right?

 Well, yes and no. If an encryption scheme is solid-enough that brute-force
guessing is your scheme, and the key is sufficiently large, then there's no
realistic chance of breaking the encryption. Bruce Schneier has an article
somewhere where he shows that you'd need all the energy the Sun has produced
and ever will produce just to cycle a 256-bit register through all 2^256
possible values. As he put it: "[B]rute force attacks against 256-bit keys
will be infeasible until computers are built from something other than matter
and occupy something other than space."

 *However*, many encryption schemes have ways to drastically reduce the number
of guesses needed. Public-key algorithms, for example, just require factoring
a number, which is much simpler. They compensate by making the numbers much
bigger. Fortunately disk encryption tends to use symmetric-key algorithms from
what I understand, and there are cyphers for which there's no publicly known
attack better than brute-force guessing.

 *Further however*, just because an attack isn't *publicly* known doesn't mean
that there isn't one that's *privately* known. For example, there are
documented cases where it's been shown that the NSA knew about types of attacks
on encryption schemes decades before they were published academically.

 *Further further however*, in practice encryption keys usually need to be
remembered by humans, and not too inconvenient to type in. These are fairly
severe limitations and 'dictionary' attacks, as well as related schemes, are
often successful.

 Generally-speaking if your encrypted data may have been copied for offline
attack, it's best to assume that it *will* be broken eventually, and take
whatever steps may be appropriate. So long as a reasonable encryption scheme
has been chosen, you're likely to have some time to do so.

 As has been noted, adding a way to wipe DRAM on power-loss would be a defense
against the attack that sparked this thread. I'd imagine military/security
hardware might be built with a capacitor on-chip - if the Vcc signal is lost,
it uses the power stored in the capacitor to wipe the RAM cells...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                (313) 227-2317

  "Certitude is not the test of certainty." - Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 14:27:02 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:27:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
Message-ID: <539394.81979.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

An other thing to note when a file is deleted it is simply deleted from the Disk table, and the sectors that have the data is still populated with the file data.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: "Ingles, Raymond" <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 2:15:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable


> 
From: 
gib at juno.com

> 
Okay, 
I 
understand 
that 
having 
the 
key 
makes 
it 
a 
lot 
easier 
> 
to 
decrypt 
the 
data. 
But 
isn't 
it 
possible 
to 
decrypt 
the 
> 
data 
by 
brute 
force 
too?  
 
So, 
encryption 
is 
not 
completely 
> 
safe, 
right?

 
Well, 
yes 
and 
no. 
If 
an 
encryption 
scheme 
is 
solid-enough 
that 
brute-force
guessing 
is 
your 
scheme, 
and 
the 
key 
is 
sufficiently 
large, 
then 
there's 
no
realistic 
chance 
of 
breaking 
the 
encryption. 
Bruce 
Schneier 
has 
an 
article
somewhere 
where 
he 
shows 
that 
you'd 
need 
all 
the 
energy 
the 
Sun 
has 
produced
and 
ever 
will 
produce 
just 
to 
cycle 
a 
256-bit 
register 
through 
all 
2^256
possible 
values. 
As 
he 
put 
it: 
"[B]rute 
force 
attacks 
against 
256-bit 
keys
will 
be 
infeasible 
until 
computers 
are 
built 
from 
something 
other 
than 
matter
and 
occupy 
something 
other 
than 
space."

 
*However*, 
many 
encryption 
schemes 
have 
ways 
to 
drastically 
reduce 
the 
number
of 
guesses 
needed. 
Public-key 
algorithms, 
for 
example, 
just 
require 
factoring
a 
number, 
which 
is 
much 
simpler. 
They 
compensate 
by 
making 
the 
numbers 
much
bigger. 
Fortunately 
disk 
encryption 
tends 
to 
use 
symmetric-key 
algorithms 
from
what 
I 
understand, 
and 
there 
are 
cyphers 
for 
which 
there's 
no 
publicly 
known
attack 
better 
than 
brute-force 
guessing.

 
*Further 
however*, 
just 
because 
an 
attack 
isn't 
*publicly* 
known 
doesn't 
mean
that 
there 
isn't 
one 
that's 
*privately* 
known. 
For 
example, 
there 
are
documented 
cases 
where 
it's 
been 
shown 
that 
the 
NSA 
knew 
about 
types 
of 
attacks
on 
encryption 
schemes 
decades 
before 
they 
were 
published 
academically.

 
*Further 
further 
however*, 
in 
practice 
encryption 
keys 
usually 
need 
to 
be
remembered 
by 
humans, 
and 
not 
too 
inconvenient 
to 
type 
in. 
These 
are 
fairly
severe 
limitations 
and 
'dictionary' 
attacks, 
as 
well 
as 
related 
schemes, 
are
often 
successful.

 
Generally-speaking 
if 
your 
encrypted 
data 
may 
have 
been 
copied 
for 
offline
attack, 
it's 
best 
to 
assume 
that 
it 
*will* 
be 
broken 
eventually, 
and 
take
whatever 
steps 
may 
be 
appropriate. 
So 
long 
as 
a 
reasonable 
encryption 
scheme
has 
been 
chosen, 
you're 
likely 
to 
have 
some 
time 
to 
do 
so.

 
As 
has 
been 
noted, 
adding 
a 
way 
to 
wipe 
DRAM 
on 
power-loss 
would 
be 
a 
defense
against 
the 
attack 
that 
sparked 
this 
thread. 
I'd 
imagine 
military/security
hardware 
might 
be 
built 
with 
a 
capacitor 
on-chip 
- 
if 
the 
Vcc 
signal 
is 
lost,
it 
uses 
the 
power 
stored 
in 
the 
capacitor 
to 
wipe 
the 
RAM 
cells...

 
Sincerely,

 
Ray 
Ingles  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
(313) 
227-2317

  
"Certitude 
is 
not 
the 
test 
of 
certainty." 
- 
Oliver 
Wendell 
Holmes, 
Jr.
The 
contents 
of 
this 
e-mail 
are 
intended 
for 
the 
named 
addressee 
only. 
It 
contains 
information 
that 
may 
be 
confidential. 
Unless 
you 
are 
the 
named 
addressee 
or 
an 
authorized 
designee, 
you 
may 
not 
copy 
or 
use 
it, 
or 
disclose 
it 
to 
anyone 
else. 
If 
you 
received 
it 
in 
error 
please 
notify 
us 
immediately 
and 
then 
destroy 
it.
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb 22 14:23:52 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:23:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption
In-Reply-To: <185566.86775.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165479@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: David Lane

> It is good programming practice to zero memory resources 
> before you release them.

 In my "Ostiary" program, I handled the memory that holds password values
carefully. First, there's a syscall named mlock() that locks pages of memory
into RAM, preventing them from being swapped to disk; this ensures that examining
the swap partition or whatever won't find passwords.

 Second, you can zero-out memory before freeing it, but an optimizing compiler
might 'notice' that you don't use that memory after setting it to zero, and
'helpfully' eliminate those calls to improve the speed of the program. Fortunately,
in C, there's a way to tell the compiler "Yes, I really know what I'm doing, don't
optimize this away." Here's the call I use for wiping out such memory:

void *forced_memset(void *v, int c, size_t n)
{
  volatile char *p=v;
  while (n--) {
    *p++=c;
  }
  return v;
}

 It's the "volatile" keyword that does the magic. That tells the compiler that
it's memory-access algorithms don't apply to that variable.

 The full source code is at http://ingles.homeunix.net/software/ost/

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "A true leader now would tell Americans the unpopular truth:
   that we use too much energy, that we are spoiled children
   whose appetite for oil is making us weak and vulnerable."
  - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 22 14:42:25 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:42:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <539394.81979.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <539394.81979.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47BF25A1.20604@ameritech.net>

David Lane wrote:
> An other thing to note when a file is deleted it is simply deleted from the Disk table, and the sectors that have the data is still populated with the file data.
> 
> David 

This is where secure deletion, and tools like shred come in.

Ray
P.S.
David,
Can you please fix your mailer so it doesn't
break
the
replied
to
messages
up
like
this?
RSM


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Fri Feb 22 15:59:41 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:59:41 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <185566.86775.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <185566.86775.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802221259i739a41chb18f25c1d8b5e34b@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 11:00 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> It is good programming practice to zero memory resources before you release them.

In this case, it doesn't matter and won't help.  The keys are in
memory when the power gets cut.  Then, they may not reboot the same
computer.  Sticks may be removed and placed in another one that does
not ZERO memory on boot.  ECC memory, iirc, may mitigate this, but I
am unsure.  Worth investigating...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 22 21:34:38 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 21:34:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's Mailbag - O'Reilly  News
Message-ID: <47BF863E.7070704@ameritech.net>

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
February 22, 2008
================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------
New Releases--Books, Short Cuts, and Rough Cuts
----------------------------------------------------------------
Get 35% off from O'Reilly, No Starch, Paraglyph, PC Publishing,
Pragmatic Bookshelf, Rocky Nook, SitePoint, or YoungJin books you
purchase directly from O'Reilly. Just use code DSUG when ordering online
or by phone 800-998-9938.
<http://www.oreilly.com/store/>

Free ground shipping on orders of $29.95 or more.
For more details, go to:
<http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html>

Did you know you can request a free book or PDF to review for your
group? Ask your group leader for more information.

For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to:
<http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html>


*** Augmented Reality  (Pragmatic Bookshelf)
ISBN10:  1934356034
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781934356036>

*** C# 3.0 Pocket Reference, Second Edition
ISBN10:  0596519222
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596519223>

*** CRAFT: Volume 06
ISBN10:  0596518196
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596518196>

*** Enterprise Application Development with Flex
ISBN10:  0596514409
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514402>

*** Groovy Recipes (Pragmatic Bookshelf)
ISBN10:  0978739299
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780978739294>

*** Hacking: The Art of Exploitation, Second Edition (No Starch)
ISBN10:  1593271441
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593271441>

*** iPhone Open Application Development: Rough Cuts Version
ISBN10:  0596519516
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596519513>

*** The LEGO MINDSTORMS NXT Zoo! (No Starch)
ISBN10:  1593271700
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781593271701>

*** LINQ Pocket Reference
ISBN10:  0596519249
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596519247>

*** Rails for PHP Developers (Pragmatic Bookshelf)
ISBN10:  1934356042
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781934356043>

*** ScreenOS Cookbook
ISBN10:  0596510039
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510039>

*** Sound Mixing Tips and Tricks (PC Publishing)
ISBN10:  1906005044
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781906005047>

*** Subject To Change: Creating Great Products & Services for an
Uncertain World
ISBN10:  0596516835
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596516833>

*** Switching to the Mac: The Missing Manual, Leopard Edition
ISBN10:  0596514123
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514129>

*** Take Control of Your iPhone (TidBITS)
ISBN10:  1933671343
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781933671345>

*** The Ultimate CSS Reference (Hard Cover) (SitePoint)
ISBN10:  0980285852
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780980285857>

*** Up and Running with Joomla
ISBN10:  0596515847
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596515843>

*** Wicked Cool PHP (No Starch)
ISBN10:  1593271735
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781593271732>


***MAKE Magazine Subscriptions
The annual subscription price for four issues is $34.95. When you
subscribe with this link, you'll get a free issue--one plus four
more for $34.95. So subscribe for yourself or friends with this
great offer for UG Members: five volumes for the cost of four.
Subscribe at:
<http://www.makezine.com/go/ugsub>


***Craft Magazine Subscriptions
The annual subscription price for four issues is $34.95. When you
subscribe with this link, you'll get a free issue--one plus
four more for $34.95. So subscribe for yourself or friends with this
great offer for UG Members: five volumes for the cost of four.
Subscribe at:
<http://www.craftzine.com/go/craftug>

================================================
Upcoming Events
================================================
For more events, please see:
<http://events.oreilly.com/>

***O'Reilly Sponsors Code4lib Conference 2008, Portland, OR--Feb 25-28
The Code4lib Conference is an outgrowth of a highly successful Access
Hackfest, wrapped into a conference format. The attendees are the folks
who implement, program, administer, and manage the systems and software
libraries use. Gold sponsorship by TOC Division.
<http://code4lib.org/conference>


***E.A. Vander Veer on WDEV Radio Live--Feb 26
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on WDEV-AM & FM Radio at 8:05am Central Time on February 26th,
2008. She will be speaking for 20 minutes on various topics regarding
Facebook, security, and applications. Be sure to tune in!
<http://www.wdevradio.com/index-home.asp>


***E.A. Vander Veer on WHAM Rochester New York--Feb 26
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on WHAM Rochester NY for the Chet & Beth morning show at 8:30am
Central Time on February 26th, 2008. She will be speaking for 10 minutes
on various topics regarding Facebook, security, and applications. Be
sure to tune in!
<http://www.wham1180.com/main.html>


***PHP Conference, London, UK--Feb 29
The PHP Conference represents a great opportunity for delegates with a
potential audience that includes web-developers, programmers,
open-source enthusiasts, and business-people. As well as being able to
hear about some of the most interesting current topics within PHP from
people at the forefront of the technology, delegates will also have the
opportunity to network with the other attendees. O'Reilly will be there,
so come and browse our latest books and benefit from a 35% discount on
the day.
<http://www.phpconference.co.uk/>


***E.A. Vander Veer on the Jan Michkelson Show--Feb 29
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on the Jan Mickelson Show for WHO-AM in Des Moines at 9:05am
Central Time on February 29th, 2008. She will be speaking for 30 minutes
on various topics regarding Facebook, security, and applications. Be
sure to tune in!
<http://www.whoradio.com/main.html>


***Barcamp, Manchester, UK--Mar 1
It's been in the works for a while now, but it finally got announced:
BarCamp is coming to Manchester! And O'Reilly will be there with all
kinds of goodies. Do come and have a chat.
<http://barcamp.org/BarCampManchesterUk>


***Sean Duggan Presents "Creative Collage with Adobe Photoshop",
  Monteray, CA--Mar 1-2, 2008
This weekend workshop will focus on using Adobe Photoshop CS2 to explore
the art of the photographic composite. Explorations will range from
simple collages and blended overlays to combining two exposures of the
same scene to control contrast, to the creation of surreal,
photo-realistic flights of fancy. Topics include: masking and knockout
techniques; layers and layer groups; simple collages based on image
overlays, blend modes and opacity; advanced blending options; precision
collage control with layer masks; image transformation tools including
Free Transform and Warp; Using Smart Objects to preserve flexibility of
transformed elements; creating a photo-realistic collage from different
source photos; multi-exposure composites to control contrast; matching
color and lighting between images.
<http://www.montereyadultschool.com/seanduggan.html>


***O'Reilly at SD West, Santa Clara, CA--Mar 3-7
Stop by the O'Reilly booth (# 407) to check out our books and say hello.
<http://www.sdexpo.com/>


***O'Reilly Beautiful Code Authors at SD West 2008,
  Santa Clara, CA--Mar 3
Meet Beautiful Code Authors Elliotte Rusty Harold, Author/Adjunct
Professor, Polytechnic University; Michael Feathers, Senior
Trainer/Mentor/Consultant, Object Mentor; Alberto Savoia, CTO, Agitar
Software; Christopher Seiwald, CEO, Perforce. What makes code beautiful?
Is it all in the eye of the beholder or is there an aesthetic of code we
can all agree on? How important is it for code to be beautiful? What
trade-offs can or should be made in the name of beauty? Come hear
several authors of the best-selling O'Reilly book Beautiful Code discuss
these and other questions.
<http://www.sdexpo.com/>


***O'Reilly WCF Authors at SD West 2008, Santa Clara, CA--Mar 3-7
Meet Learning WCF Author, Michele Bustamante, Chief Architect, IDesign,
Inc. and Programming WCF Services Author, Juval Lowy, President,
IDesign, Inc.
<https://www.cmpevents.com/SDw8/a.asp?option=Chttps://www.cmpevents.com/SDw8/a.asp?option=C>


***E.A. Vander Veer on the Kathryn Zox Show--Mar 3
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on the Kathryn Zox Show with WMET-AM Washington at 11:30am
Central Time on March 3rd, 2008. She will be speaking for 30 minutes on
various topics regarding Facebook, security, and applications. Be sure
to tune in!
<http://wmet1160.com/>


***Emerging Technology Conference (ETech), San Diego, CA--Mar 4-6
The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference (ETech) centers on future
technologies that truly matter. From robotics, health care, and space
travel to gaming, finance, and art, ETech explores promising
technologies new to the innovation horizon, and investigates those that
have been on the horizon too long.
<http://en.oreilly.com/et2008/public/content/home>


***Jesse Liberty at MIX08, Las Vegas, NV--Mar 5-7
Author Jesse Liberty (Programming .NET 3.5 and Learning ASP.NET with
AJAX) will be talking about Microsoft Silverlight.
<http://visitmix.com/2008/default.aspx>


***O'Reilly Authors Host Book Readings at SXSW, Austin, TX--Mar 7-11
O'Reilly authors Steve Souders (High Performance Web Sites), Todd
Wilkens (Subject to Change), Michael Yuan (Nokia Smartphone Hacks) and
Thomas Myer (Lead Generation on the Web) are participating in "Book
Readings at the South by Bookstore" during SXSW 2008.
<http://2008.sxsw.com/interactive/programming/readings/>


***O'Reilly at SXSW Interactive, Austin, TX--Mar 9-11
The SXSW Interactive Festival brings together the world's most creative
web developers, designers, bloggers, wireless innovators, and new media
entrepreneurs. While you're there, stop by the O'Reilly booth to say hi,
and pick up some great new books.
<http://sxsw.com/>


***QCon London 2008, London, UK--Mar 10-14
QCon London 2008 is an Enterprise Software Development Conference,
providing a venue for learning, networking, and tracking innovation in
Java, .Net, Ruby, SOA, Languages of tomorrow, Banking Architectures,
Agile, Scrum and Software Architecture and Design. Come and meet some of
our authors at our booth. Book now and quote promo code:
oreilly_qconlondon2008 and get a discount.
<http://qcon.infoq.com/london/conference/>


***Derrick Story at Windsor Senior Computer User's Group,
  Rohnert Park, CA--Mar 10
Author Derrick Story (The Digital Photography Companion, iPhoto 8: The
Missing Manual, and Digital Photography Hacks) presents "Digital
Photography Tips, Tricks, and Stunts."
<http://www.sonic.net/donna/windsor.html>


***O'Reilly at SPE (Society for Photographic Education),
  Denver, CO--Mar 14-15
The Society for Photographic Education is the longest-lived and largest
association devoted to photography and related media as it applies to
education, practice, and scholarship. While you're at the 45th National
Conference, stop by the O'Reilly booth to say hi, and check out our
great new books.
<http://www.spenational.org/conference/conf2008/index.html>


***O'Reilly at PyCon, Chicago, IL--Mar 14-15
Look for O'Reilly authors Noah Gift, Van Lindberg, and Brian
Fitzpatrick. Stop by the O'Reilly booth to say hi and pick up some great
new books.
<http://us.pycon.org/2008/about/>


***Sean Duggan Presents a Week-long Seminar: Creative Photoshop
  Enhancements for Photographers, Delray Beach, FL--Mar 17-21
Sean Duggan's (The Creative Digital Darkroom) week-long seminar at the
Palm Beach Photographic Centre combines presentation, artistic
discovery, making photographs and exploring the creative possibilities
for image transformation in the digital darkroom. Prerequisites include
Imaging Overview or equivalent experience.
<http://www.workshop.org/pages/sean_duggan_creative_darkroom.html>


***E.A. Vander Veer on Computer Outlook Radio--Mar 17
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on Computer Outlook Radio at 7pm Central Time on March 3rd,
2008. She will be speaking for an hour on various topics regarding
Facebook. Be sure to tune in!
<http://www.computeroutlook.com/>

================================================
Conference News
================================================
***Web 2.0 Expo New York, NY--September 16-19
The Call for Participation is now open. Web 2.0 Expo is for the builders
of the next generation web: designers, developers, entrepreneurs,
marketers, business strategists, and venture capitalists. O'Reilly and
CMP are seeking the best and brightest in the Web 2.0 universe to show
the world how the next Internet Revolution is being designed and
delivered.
<http://www.web2expo.com/ny>

To submit a proposal to speak at Web 2.0 Expo, go to:
<http://en.oreilly.com/webexny2008/public/cfp/18>


***O'Reilly GSP West Conference--San Diego, CA--March 3-4
This two-day conference presents a behind-the-scenes look at the
business and technology of social networking platforms. With MySpace,
Facebook, and Flickr attracting millions of visitors each day, the
implications for business, marketing, and software developers are
enormous.
<http://conferences.oreilly.com/gspwest/>

Use code "gspw08usrg" when you register, and receive 15% off
the registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
<http://en.oreilly.com/gspwest2008/public/content/register>


***Registration for ETech Open, San Diego, CA--March 3-6
Body hacking. DIY spectrum. Crowd visualization. Sensor games. ETech
2008 will explore the tech that's influencing how we're seen as
individuals and what affects our perception of the world around us.
<http://conferences.oreilly.com/etech/>

Use code "et08usrg" when you register and receive 15% off
the registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
<http://en.oreilly.com/et2008/public/content/register>


***2008 MySQL Conference & Expo Registration is Open,
   Santa Clara, CA--April 14-17
The largest gathering of MySQL developers, users, and DBAs worldwide,
the event reflects MySQL's wide-ranging appeal and capabilities. The
open atmosphere of the MySQL Conference & Expo helps IT professionals
and community members to create the best database applications, tools,
and software through expert instruction, hands-on tutorials, readily
available MySQL developers, and guru business advice.

Use code "mys08usrg" when you register, and receive 15% off
the registration price. Early registration discount deadline
ends February 26.


To register for the conference, go to:
<https://en.oreilly.com/mysql2008/public/register>


****Web Expo SF Registration is Open, San Francisco, CA--Apr 22-25
A companion event to the Web 2.0 Summit, Web 2.0 Expo is an expanded,
inclusive gathering for the technology and business communities through
a combined conference and tradeshow.

Use code "websf08ug" when you register and receive $100 off any
conference package or a free expo hall pass. Early registration discount
deadline ends March 20.

To register for the conference, go to:
<https://en.oreilly.com/webexsf2008/public/register>


***Where 2.0 2008 is Open, Burlingame, CA--May 12-14, 2008
At the O'Reilly Where 2.0 Conference, we expose the tools pushing the
boundaries of the location frontier, track the emergence of new business
models and services, and spend time examining new sources of data and
the platforms for collecting them.

Use code "whr08usrg" when you register, and receive 15% off
the registration price. Early registration discount deadline
ends March 23.

To register for the conference, go to:
<https://en.oreilly.com/where2008/public/register>


****Registration for RailsConf 2008 is Open, Portland, OR--
May 29-June 1, 2008
Co-produced by Ruby Central and O'Reilly Media, RailsConf is "the" event
for the growing Rails Community--the largest official gathering
dedicatedto everything Rails. If you're passionate about Rails and what
it helps you achieve--or if you're curious about how Rails can help you
create web applications better and faster--this conference is the place
to be.

Use code "rc08usrg" when you register, and receive 15% off
the registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
<https://en.oreilly.com/rails2008/public/register>

================================================
O'Reilly School of Technology
================================================
***O'Reilly School of Technology Courses: UG Members Receive
   a 30% Discount
O'Reilly School of Technology has opened its virtual doors with
educational offerings and certification for IT students looking to
further their careers or to launch one. As an O'Reilly User Group
member, you save on all the courses in the following University of
Illinois Certificate Series:

-PHP/SQL Programming--New!
-Linux/Unix System Administration
-Web Programming
-Open Source Programming
-.NET Programming
-Client-Side Web Programming featuring AJAX

To redeem, use Promotion Code "ORALL1" good for a 30% discount,
in Step #2 of the enrollment process. Each course comes with a free
O'Reilly book and a 7-day money-back guarantee.
Register online:
<http://www.oreillyschool.com/?CMP=BAC-ostug>

================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
UG News
---------------------
***Toronto Asterisk Users' Group at IT360.ca
The Toronto Asterisk Users' Group has been working closely with
IT360.ca conference organizers in Toronto and have put together an
excellent Asterisk track. Speakers this year include "Asterisk: The
Future of Telephony" authors Jim Van Meggelen, Leif Madsen, and Jared
Smith.
<http://www.it360.ca/>


***New York Times Spotlights Myths of Innovation
"Epiphany has little to do with either creativity or innovation.
Instead, innovation is a slow process of accretion, building small
insight upon interesting fact upon tried-and-true process" writes Janet
Rae-Dupree in her Sunday New York Times column featuring Scott Berkun's
"The Myths of Innovation."
<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/business/03unbox.html?_r=1&ex=1202706000&en=70b7758cdbdbd746&ei=5070&emc=eta1&oref=slogin>


***How to Prevent Windows Vista's 'Green Ribbon of Death'
Here's an excerpt from "Windows Vista Annoyances" at Computerworld.
<http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyId=89&articleId=9063060&intsrc=hm_topic>


***Installfest for Schools, Four Locations in the SF Bay Area, March 1
Signup and join an installfest in San Francisco, Berkeley, San Mateo, or
Novato, CA and help the local schools at this open source community event.
<http://untangle.com/installfest>


***Leo Leporte's Interview with O'Reilly author Mikkel Aaland
<http://techguylabs.com/radio/ShowNotes/Show430#toc3>


***Exploring Online Technical Information
Editor Andy Oram posted several blogs exploring online technical
information and its relation to professional computer books:

-Educating computer users: the need for community/author collaboration
<http://praxagora.com/andyo/professional/community_author_collaboration.html>

-Two tools we need to improve online information
<http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/01/two_tools_we_ne.html>

-Developing an improved online environment for educating computer users
<http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/02/developing_an_i.html>


***DIY O'Reilly Gear
Create Your Own Calendar, Shirt, Notebook, Poster...In just three easy
steps you can create one of a kind calendars, greeting cards, keychains,
luggage tags, magnets, mousepads, mugs, notebooks, postcards, posters,
shirts, hoodies, and stickers adorned with your favorite O'Reilly
animals.
<http://www.qoop.com/photobooks/photofront/pub_store.php?pub_name=oreilly>

---------------------
Articles
---------------------
***A Look Back at 10 Years of OSI
It's been 10 years since the Open Source Initiative was launched, and
what a 10 years it has been. Open Source has gone from an obscure and
radical concept to a vibrant sector of the software landscape. For the
10th Anniversary, our faithful newshound Federico Biancuzzi talked to
some of the early pioneers of the OSI (such as Bruce Perens and Eric
Raymond) about where it came from and how it is relevant today.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/onlamp/2008/02/12/a-look-back-at-10-years-of-osi.html>


***Aperture 2.0 with Joe Schorr
Aperture 2.0 is faster, easier to use, and produces better images, says
Joe Schorr, Apple Senior Product Manager. In this interview with Derrick
Story, Joe explains how Aperture 2.0 meets those lofty claims. This chat
covers a lot of new ground.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/02/12/aperture-2-with-joe-schorr.html>


***Using Xenn for High Availability Clusters
Virtualization is one approach that you can take to implementing
clusters. But you still have to arrange to handle failures in a
high-availability environment. Here's one solution, using Xen.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/onlamp/2008/02/05/using-xen-for-high-availabilty-clusters.html>


***Developing RESTful Web Services in Perl
REST has become a widely used alternative to protocols such as SOAP,
providing a simpler way to tell your server what you want to do without
all that messy WSDL stuff. In this article, you'll see how to create a
RESTful web service, using Perl.
<http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2008/02/19/developing-restful-web-services-in-perl.html>


***Music Technology at NAMM 2008
Part 1: America's biggest musical instrument show debuted more high-tech
wonders than ever this year. O'Reilly Digital Media prowled NAMM's five
massive, noisy halls to bring back these high-tech hits.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/24/2008-namm-report.html>

Part 2: We're back from NAMM 2008 with even more intriguing new gadgets
and gear. Once again, the throbbing halls of America's biggest musical
instrument trade show introduced a torrent of high-tech goodness. From a
$99 Steinway to a truly killer guitar, from audible notation to singing
keys, here's what you'll be playing this year.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/31/2008-namm-report-part-2.html>


***Katrin Eismann's Digital Darkroom Magic
Katrin Eismann, coauthor of The Creative Digital Darkroom, sat down with
Derrick Story at PhotoPlus Expo in New York for a chat about how the
darkroom has evolved from chemical-based to digital, and how that
evolution has influenced her approach to image making. Katrin touches on
many interesting topics, including her explanation on 3-step sharpening.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/29/katrin-eismanns-digital-darkroom-magic.html>


For more articles, go to:
<http://www.oreillynet.com/>

---------------------
Blogs
-------------------
***Community Pricing for Books
<http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/02/community_pricing_for_books.html>

***Ruby Turns 15 and Other Important Stuff
<http://www.oreillynet.com/fyi/blog/2008/02/ruby_turns_15_and_other_import.html>

***10 Things Every Parent Should Know About Facebook
<http://www.oreillynet.com/fyi/blog/2008/02/10_things_every_parent_should.html>

***Mac FFOSS (Freeware/Free & Open Source Software)
<http://blogs.oreilly.com/digitalmedia/2008/02/mac-ffoss-freewarefree-open-so-3.html>

***Where Did the Courier & Helvetica Fonts Go?
<http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2008/02/where_did_the_courier_and_helv_1.html>

***O'Reilly Books and the Cuban Internet
<http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/01/folks_are_often.html>

***Learning Flex From Scratch: Meet the Authors, Meet Flex
<http://www.insideria.com/2008/02/lffs1-meet-the-authors-meet-fl.html>

***Sonar for your Home
<http://blogs.oreilly.com/digitalmedia/2008/02/sonar-for-your-home.html>


For more blogs, go to:
<http://www.oreillynet.com/blogs/>

Until next time--

Marsee Henon


================================================================
O'Reilly
1005 Gravenstein Highway North
Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://ug.oreilly.com/creativemedia/
================================================================



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 20:38:04 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 20:38:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>
	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
>> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>> |> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
>>>> |> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
>>>> |> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
>>>> |> field is a big flaky.
>>>> |>
>>>> |> Allen
>>>> |>
>>>> | WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
>>>> | effective in confusing me ;-)
>>>>
>>>> LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
>>>> Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.
>>>>
>>>> - --
>>>> Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>> LOL !!  Would not be the first US Citizen to be hauled there w/o court, 
>>> trial, lawyer, etc.
>>>    
>>>
>> Of course, to get such special treatment, you have to work
>> at it -- specifically, to train with, and swear allegience
>> to people who are at war with the United States.
>>
>> At that point, you're no longer a civilian, and you fall
>> under Geneva Convention rules.  If you choose to carry out
>> your struggle without wearing a uniform (which can be as
>> simple as an identification armband), or do other things
>> such as setting up military facilities among the civilian
>> populace, and other ways of deliberately causing your
>> enemy's actions against you to maximize civilian casualties,
>> or placing military equipment in protected places (such as
>> hospitals, religious sites, etc.) then you're a war
>> criminal, and even the Geneva Convention classfies you as
>> an "illegal combatant" and you have NO protections --
>> basically, the life and well-being of an illegal combatant
>> are at the whim of his or her captors.
>>
>> Legal combatants must be freed upon the end of hostilities,
>> as they are not detained for reason of wrong-doing, only to
>> prevent them from returning to the fight.
>>
>> Illegal combatants have no such rights.
>>
>> During WW2, several Germans, along with one U.S. citizen
>> were landed on the Atlantic Coast, for the purpose of
>> committing sabotage against American industry.
>>
>> As they were all dressed in civilian clothes, and wore
>> nothing to identify themselves as combatants, they
>> all (including the U.S. Citizen) got the Jose Padilla
>> treatment.  6 of the 8 were executed, including the
>> U.S. citizen.
>>
>> Similarly, although many are reluctant to admit it,
>> when a bunch of aviators participated in "The Great
>> Escape" from a German POW camp (yes, the movie is
>> based on a real event, and quite accurately), and
>> most wore civilian clothing (or uniforms modified
>> to look like civilian clothing), and many were
>> captured, with 50 executed, IN THIS INCIDENT the
>> Gestapo actually was operating within the Geneva
>> Convention.
>>
>>  
>>
> Then we have become as bad as Joseph Stalin when we ignore our 
> Constitution and the Geneva Convention. These "Enemy Combatants" held in 
> Cuba were denied protection under the Geneva Convention for YEARS !!  

THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO GENEVA CONVENTION PROTECTION.

Fight without a uniform -- and you lose all Geneva Convention 
protections.

> There were their Red Cross visits ? Don't get me started about water 
> boarding either.

None of that matters.
They were caught on battlefields, fighting out of uniform.

The Geneva Convention DOES recognize irregular soldiers and
militia -- you can fight as such as long as you wear some
article of clothing which distinguishes you from the civilian
populace, and still qualify for GC protection.

> 
> We committed various war crimes in W.W.II as well. The fire bombing of 
> the German civilian population was intentional and criminal.

I completely agree with that assessment.

 > So were the
> to atomic bombs vaporizing civilians in Japan, putting US citizens in 
> prison w/o trial because they had Japanese heritage...  There are more 
> examples I am sure.

Blame Truman and FDR.

> 
> Part of the responsibility of being the only current super power is 
> sticking to the rule of law. We have not been in this war - FISA is 
> another good example. Safety is of no value when you trample the very 
> liberty from tyranny you are combating. The end does not justify the 
> means any more for them than it does for us.

FISA is a Cold War law, designed with the Cold War's "gentleman's
rules" of espionage.

The current wiretapping debate has been grossly mischaracterized.

The ONLY calls which can be monitored are those originating
from overseas...

And EVERY country on the planet has always reserved the right
to monitor ALL communications passing over the borders -- the
lone exception being diplomatic communications (which is the
origin of the "diplomatic pouch"... customs and police are
specifically prohibited from searching a diplomatic pouch.

All other communication which crosses the borders is, and
always has been, subject to monitoring.

> 
> -dave
> 
> PS - Stalin literally worked countless former German POW's to death 
> after the war. I saw some of the fruits of their forced labor in my 
> wife's home town in Ukraine.....  we went on a short trip outside of 
> town. The road was the best road I have seen there, but was in the 
> middle of nowhere and went to a small group of "summer residences". I 
> asked about this road and the laughing response was "It is the Nazi 
> road. It has 4m deep foundation rather than normal 1.2m. It was made 
> after the war by the German POW's"

The USSR was not a GC signatory power during WW2.
The Germans were very upset that the Red Army didn't observe
proper GC protections for captured German soldiers....completely
overlooking their own gross GC violations with respect to civilians.

War is very messy.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 23:04:56 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:04:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47BF9B68.6070906@hotpop.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
> Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier to
 > decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data by
 > brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
 >
> I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The
 > inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a
 > statement  was made that they recovered the laptop and the
 > encryption was not broken.  I think that once the bad guys
 > have a laptop they can make a copy of the data and then they
 > can allow the laptop to be returned.  They can take their
 > time cracking the data.
> 

Correct.

As a communications soldier, I am educated on the impact of
cryptography on communications.

For military systems I've used, or otherwise trained with or
been trained on, the stronger the cryptographic protection,
the more cumbersome it is to use.

Therefore, for practical reasons, (time, weight, etc), the
goal is always to choose the LEAST cryptographic protection
needed for a message -- the reason is best explained in the
following scenario

Suppose I want to arrange a meeting (say, for the transfer
of supplies or food or something).

In the mid-1980's, there were several choices to choose from:

1) a simple, but clever encryption system which could be used
for encrypting primarily times and map-coordinates.
Academic cryptographic literature would refer to this as a
cipher due to the 1-to-1 relationship between the number of
plain-text characters, and the number of encrypted characters.
The entire encrypt/decrypt system fits on a 3" x 4" piece
of paper.
{now made obsolete by a system called "SINCGARS")

2) A true code system, consisting of 3-letter groups,
each of which would represent a words, prefix, suffix,
a common syllable, a letter, a number, or a group of
numerals (such as "000").  Encryption by this method
can be done "in the field", but requires a very tedious
process of looking up each substitution in a book
(about 3" x 5").  Encrypting a 15-word message could
easily take 30 minutes or longer, and decrypting with
the book takes about the same amount of time.
(now made obsolete by SINCGARS)

3) Using a RATT (RAdio TeleType) network.  This
generally required a "RATT-rig" ... a metal container
carried on the back of a truck, which would hold all
of the encryption-decryption electronics, plus the
associated teletype and message-storage equipment.
(for example, messages could be prepared on a
magnetic tape, or even a punch tape... and then
held for transmission at a later time.  If someone
knew that they would send one of two messages, depending
on some event, both of those messages could be prepared
ahead of time, and then the applicable one transmitted
once the decision of which to send had been made).
Advantage -- large messages can be encrypted and
decrypted very quickly, using complex algorithms,
but due to both the expense and bulk of the equipment,
typically available only at Brigade level or higher.
I.e. Battalions and companies typically don't have
this equipment)

By the mide 1990's, another option became available:

So...back to our scenario...to arrange (or order) this
meeting, which system do you choose?

If this is at a brigade/division/corps/army level,
the obvious choice is the RATT rig.
But if it is a battalion or company level thing,
which do you choose?

Well, that depends on the situation.
A: If the meeting is to occur only a few hours from
now, and the overall message doesn't contain any
reference to what will occur at the meeting, (the
message might say, "for a FOXTROT meeting" (with
the meaning of FOXTROT previously established) or
any other clues about location other than the
grid reference, what would you choose?

B: If the meeting is to occur 6 days from now, and
the person sending the message also says to bring
a number of vehicles for hauling whatever stuff...
which would you choose?

In case A, the simple 3"x4" cipher card would be
most appropriate.

In case B, the 3-letter code-groups would be most
appropriate.

Why?
The major reason is the element of time.

One assumption in military communications is that ALL
your messages are received, RECORDED and even archived
by the opposing forces, and that each message will have
a competent team of cryptographers working on it (because
you never know WHICH message the enemies cryptographers
will actually choose to attack by analysis)

So...since the cipher system on the 3"x4" paper was
estimated to protect a message for 48 hours (once
enough messages were intercepted and recorded, the
entire body of message traffic could be subjected
to meta-analysis).  So, in scenario A, the 3"x4", if
the message is otherwise indirect enough, simply
encrypting the time and location with this cipher
could be "good enough" because by the time the opposing
forces crack your message, your meeting is an event
that already ended at least 24 hours ago.

On the other hand, for scenario B, this is not strong
enough encryption... the opposing forces could crack
the message and still have 48+ hours to react (by
deploying forces to the meeting site. for example,
or conducting ambushes on the roads surrounding
the meeting site, and destroying/capturing both
men and equipment or supplies)..so, because of this,
the code-book with the 3-letter codes is the bare
minimum.  If the meeting was, say, TOP SECRET, but
the 3-letter code book was only rated for SECRET,
then the 3-letter code book could not be used, and
some other method of delivering the message would
have to be used -- such as hand delivery, use of
a "one time pad" message, etc.

So how does this matter for computers?

If your encrypted data were copied, (the equivalent
of the military scenario of interception and recording),
how far into the future would that information still
be damaging if it were revealed only to those who have
the ability and desire (and nobody else) to use that
information in a way which would adversely effect you?

For example... if most of the information you encrypt
is only of usefulness for a few weeks, then gonig to
the trouble of using an encryption method which would
take 10+ years to crack is probably not good.

Why?

Because you probably have OTHER data which even 10 years
from now, you STILL want to be protected.  By encrypting
your "damaging for a week" data with the same system as
your "damaging for a decade" data... you give an attacker
a larger amount of data to work with for meta-analysis
which ultimately lessens the amount of time needed to
attack any individual encrypted item.

By using different systems, depending on how LONG it
needs to be protected... the large mass of short-term
sensitive messages are no longer useful for decrypting
the long-term sensitive data, because they are using
completely different systems.

In terms of something like PGP..a variation on this
could mean using one key for short-term sensitive data,
another for "medium-term" sensitive data, a 3rd key
for long-term sensitive data" and a 4th key for data
so sensitive that you don't want it to be revealed at
any time while you are still alive...and possibly even
a 5th for data which you hope to keep secret even from
members of your grandchildren's generation. (say two
generations after you die)







4) In the mid 1990's, a computer-based system.  Using a
small computer (from a technological standpoint, it
appeared to be a miniaturized Commodore 64 with a
small built-in LCD screen), a message could be typed
in.  The computer had both telephone line jacks and
also a two-piece acoustic modem (the two halves of
which could be temporarily attached, using velcro
straps, to the handset of a typical voice radio), as
well as a parallel port for attaching a printer, and
also a serial port.).  Plastic chassis, appropriate
for use only in a company headquarters or higher.
Perhaps a ruggedized version was produced (more weight,
of course) but I never saw one.



> 
> -- "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>>
>>  Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>>  computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>>  encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>>  is possible.
> 
> The security implications of loading the decryption keys into DRAM is
> something I though of myself a while ago.  I hadn't realized that the
> data retention was that long without power or that cooling them could
> increase the data lifetime.  My theory was that it would be possible
> to read the memory bus while the system was active and pick up the
> keys that way.  According to the report you can chill the DRAM and
> just put it in another system for reading which makes encryption about
> as useful as a chastity belt.  I disagree with Steven Sprague about
> the effectiveness of hardware-based encryption devices as they also
> have to load the key making them just as vulnerable.  The only
> advantage they offer is a more complicated architecture that would
> have to be reverse engineered first so that an attacker would know
> where to look before attempting to find the key (obfuscation).  I was
> thinking that storing the key in a CPU register would be better as the
> complexity and small feature size would make it a lot harder to
> extract.  OpenBSD, IIRC, randomizes memory locations so theoretically
> it would be more difficult to find a key (again obfuscation).  I think
> the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
> before halting or suspending.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Click for free info on using seach engines to expand your business.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifVr4L6N73yOzTImEQJlllblPjibWxajC7Lp2ebNLBWDxzFq/
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 23 00:49:38 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:49:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
	<47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BFB3F2.2040403@comcast.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> I think
> the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
> before halting or suspending.
>   

And still, if the black hat has the physical computer, you're screwed. 
Basically any hard drive that is lost from your protection should be
considered compromised and the data open even if it is protected.  No
security is perfect and if the bad guy has ownership of the machine,
they can own the data, it is merely a matter of time and interest.

Most people that steal laptops are not data thieves.  They want the
machine to use or sell.  They will not have the tools to break the
security.  They just want the password or to wipe the password.

Frankly any computer I ever get rid of will have the hard drives wiped
and if the data is sensitive enough (I have nothing in that category) I
will physically destroy the drive.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 23 00:52:27 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:52:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47BFB49B.8010301@comcast.net>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
> Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
> I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a statement  was made that they recovered the laptop and the encryption was not broken.  I think that once the bad guys have a laptop they can make a copy of the data and then they can allow the laptop to be returned.  They can take their time cracking the data.

Sure tools right here to make a bit by bit clone of a hard drive.  If
they get physical control, you are boned.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb 23 01:02:53 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:02:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>
	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>


>>> <>Then we have become as bad as Joseph Stalin when we ignore our
>>> Constitution and the Geneva Convention. These "Enemy Combatants" 
>>> held in
>>> Cuba were denied protection under the Geneva Convention for YEARS !!
>>
>
>THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO GENEVA CONVENTION PROTECTION.
>
>Fight without a uniform -- and you lose all Geneva Convention 
>protections.
>
>  
>
Well, from their perspective, they ARE in uniform. The Muslin uniform. 
Remember, to _them_ this is a religious war. We are the Super Power that 
history proves will fall. If we don't hold ourselves to a higher 
standard than they do, we will only accelerate our fall.

>>There were their Red Cross visits ? Don't get me started about water 
>>boarding either.
>>    
>>
>
>None of that matters.
>They were caught on battlefields, fighting out of uniform.
>
>The Geneva Convention DOES recognize irregular soldiers and
>militia -- you can fight as such as long as you wear some
>article of clothing which distinguishes you from the civilian
>populace, and still qualify for GC protection.
>
>  
>
They did not sign it either. Nor did USSR - so how could be condemn them 
for their treatment of the Afghan Mohsedeem ?  We are complete 
hypocrites on this page in history

>>to atomic bombs vaporizing civilians in Japan, putting US citizens in 
>>prison w/o trial because they had Japanese heritage...  There are more 
>>examples I am sure.
>>    
>>
>
>Blame Truman and FDR.
>
>  
>
NO !!!!!   BLAME OUR FELLOW AMERICANS FOR STANDING FOR IT !!!! Just as 
some Americans are standing for torture in Cuba now.... And ignoring of 
FISA and granting the Big Telco's immunity for violation of FISA...

>>Part of the responsibility of being the only current super power is 
>>sticking to the rule of law. We have not been in this war - FISA is 
>>another good example. Safety is of no value when you trample the very 
>>liberty from tyranny you are combating. The end does not justify the 
>>means any more for them than it does for us.
>>    
>>
>
>FISA is a Cold War law, designed with the Cold War's "gentleman's
>rules" of espionage.
>
>The current wiretapping debate has been grossly mischaracterized.
>
>The ONLY calls which can be monitored are those originating
>from overseas...
>
>And EVERY country on the planet has always reserved the right
>to monitor ALL communications passing over the borders -- the
>lone exception being diplomatic communications (which is the
>origin of the "diplomatic pouch"... customs and police are
>specifically prohibited from searching a diplomatic pouch.
>
>All other communication which crosses the borders is, and
>always has been, subject to monitoring.
>
>  
>
I guess to some the Rule of Law, and not the rule of what the President 
dictates to be the law, is all that counts. I am sorry if the current 
laws are not convenient to the Executive branch, but tell me, when did 
the FISA court ever - EVER - block a wire tap ? :-)  Never. Even post 
Morton as the law allows for. Never.

This is the type of reasoning that allowed Hitler his ultimate control. 
He did not get it over night. He got it piece by piece. The Executive 
branch did not get all this power since 9-11, it has been a building 
process. Right now, it is past the line in the Constitution.

Cold war or not, Law is Law.

-dave


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb 23 01:50:48 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:50:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BFB3F2.2040403@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>
	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com> <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BFB3F2.2040403@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802222250t4dd4f2danfe047b81efd89cc9@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 12:49 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Jeff Hanson wrote:
>  > I think
>  > the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
>  > before halting or suspending.
>  >
>
>  And still, if the black hat has the physical computer, you're screwed.
>  Basically any hard drive that is lost from your protection should be
>  considered compromised and the data open even if it is protected.  No
>  security is perfect and if the bad guy has ownership of the machine,
>  they can own the data, it is merely a matter of time and interest.
>
>  Most people that steal laptops are not data thieves.  They want the
>  machine to use or sell.  They will not have the tools to break the
>  security.  They just want the password or to wipe the password.
>
>  Frankly any computer I ever get rid of will have the hard drives wiped
>  and if the data is sensitive enough (I have nothing in that category) I
>  will physically destroy the drive.

Even with this new DRAM key recovery method the thermite erasure
method still works.

Practically speaking I encrypt server drives also.  If an idiot steals
the system they're probably not going to care about unplugging the
power and thus losing access to decrypted data.  I'd rather not have
an unencrypted server drive sitting in a pawn shop somewhere.


From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Feb 23 07:34:34 2008
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:34:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you
	have a static IP address)
In-Reply-To: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200802230734.35936.davidl@lmert.com>

On Saturday 09 February 2008 14:33, David Lane wrote:
> I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"
>
> register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that
> is not the case.

Here's a free service if you can live with "david-lane.homelinux.com", 
not "david-lane.com":

	http://www.dyndns.com/services/dns/dyndns/domains.html

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 23 14:33:24 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:33:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>
	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:

<snip>

> 
>>> to atomic bombs vaporizing civilians in Japan, putting US citizens in 
>>> prison w/o trial because they had Japanese heritage...  There are more 
>>> examples I am sure.
>>>    
>>>
>> Blame Truman and FDR.
>>
>>  
>>
> NO !!!!!   BLAME OUR FELLOW AMERICANS FOR STANDING FOR IT !!!! Just as 
> some Americans are standing for torture in Cuba now.... And ignoring of 
> FISA and granting the Big Telco's immunity for violation of FISA...
> 
>>> Part of the responsibility of being the only current super power is 
>>> sticking to the rule of law. We have not been in this war - FISA is 
>>> another good example. Safety is of no value when you trample the very 
>>> liberty from tyranny you are combating. The end does not justify the 
>>> means any more for them than it does for us.
>>>    
>>>
>> FISA is a Cold War law, designed with the Cold War's "gentleman's
>> rules" of espionage.
>>
>> The current wiretapping debate has been grossly mischaracterized.
>>
>> The ONLY calls which can be monitored are those originating
>>from overseas...
>> And EVERY country on the planet has always reserved the right
>> to monitor ALL communications passing over the borders -- the
>> lone exception being diplomatic communications (which is the
>> origin of the "diplomatic pouch"... customs and police are
>> specifically prohibited from searching a diplomatic pouch.
>>
>> All other communication which crosses the borders is, and
>> always has been, subject to monitoring.
>>
>>  
>>
> I guess to some the Rule of Law, and not the rule of what the President 
> dictates to be the law, is all that counts. I am sorry if the current 
> laws are not convenient to the Executive branch, but tell me, when did 
> the FISA court ever - EVER - block a wire tap ? :-)  Never. Even post 
> Morton as the law allows for. Never.
> 
> This is the type of reasoning that allowed Hitler his ultimate control. 
> He did not get it over night. He got it piece by piece. The Executive 
> branch did not get all this power since 9-11, it has been a building 
> process. Right now, it is past the line in the Constitution.
> 
> Cold war or not, Law is Law.

Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.

FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
States to another location within the United States), and is
a necessary

The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
communications between a party within their borders and
another party outside of their borders.

In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
actually from one foreign location to another foreign
location, which just happen to be routed through the
U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
before allowing them to be brought into the country.

In the case of an international wiretap, they're not
even preventing the communication, they are merely
monitoring the cross-border communications.

All of these complaints are just more of the same,
tiresome Bush derangement syndrome by the same sorts
of people who didn't bat an eyelash over the Clinton
administration's Carnivore program -- which DID
specifically target domestic communications between
U.S. citizens, because they viewed the biggest terrorist
threat to the nation to be its own citizens (even while
foreign terrorists were attacking us around the world),
because the White House actually WAS at war with the
American people (Waco, "scary-looking"-guns act) and
siding with the crazies (SWAT team assault on refugee
Elian Gonzalez, so that they could return him to the
island-prison of Cuba... siding with the mass-murdering
gangs of Kosovo after they started to carry out a war
of arson and genocide against the Serbs (think of a
never-ending Kristallnacht accompanied by Dachau all
rolled into one, but without the German fetish for
marching and paperwork).  Those mass graves were
NOT created by Serbian forces...they were full of
Serbian bodies.  The eastern European press was reporting
this as early as 1997, but the American press didn't
get it right until 2007.

At the time that the Air Force was ordered to bomb
Belgrade and Novii Sad, these cities were already
overflowing with refugees who had literally fled their
homes with nothing more than the clothes on their back,
as their homes, businesses, and whatever vehicles they
might have owned were all destroyed (usually through
arson) by their warm, loving, peaceful Muslim neighbors.
The man blamed for all of this is Slobodan Milosovich,
who, contrary to the way the White House portrayed him
as some sort of war-monger, was unusually RESTRAINED.
Liberty magazine had a writer in Poland, who reported
that every day, tens of thousands marched in the streets
of Belgrade urging Milosovich to send the Serbian Army
into the Kosovo region province to protect the Serb
population living there.  This went on for months.
[If one ethnic group in the U.S. were forcibly expelling
another ethnic group from their locality, by means of
burning down neighborhoods and killing all of the adult
males, how many hours would pass before U.S. Army troops
were sent in to put down civil unrest?  I can't imagine
it being more than 96 hours.  Milosovich, the "warmonger"
resisted public demands to defend citizens against an
internal rebellion for far more than 96 DAYS...and yet,
to the Clinton Administration and his buddies, the
European elites, Milosovich was the bad guy in all
of this.  (And for perpetuating the policy of viewing

Why?  Because the Serbs are Orthodox Christian, and
therefore a satisfactory scapegoat for the Clintons,
while the Kosovo populace is Muslim, and therefore
beyond reproach.  Radical Muslim gangs in Kosovo were
practicing the usual "convert-or-die" expansionism
which triggered to the Spanish Inquisition, often
wrongfully typified as a pogram against Jews when
it was in fact an act of defending against Islamic
expansionism by adopting the same policy against
the death-cult.

Sadly, some Jews were caught up in whole affair, but
the Inquisition wasn't about them, it was about the
expansion of Mohammad's death-cult.

Followup sent to the offtopic list.




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb 23 15:15:31 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:15:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

> This is the type of reasoning that allowed Hitler his ultimate control.
>
>>He did not get it over night. He got it piece by piece. The Executive 
>>branch did not get all this power since 9-11, it has been a building 
>>process. Right now, it is past the line in the Constitution.
>>
>>Cold war or not, Law is Law.
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.
>
>FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
>States to another location within the United States), and is
>a necessary
>
>The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
>external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
>always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
>communications between a party within their borders and
>another party outside of their borders.
>
>In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
>actually from one foreign location to another foreign
>location, which just happen to be routed through the
>U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
>clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
>country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
>be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
>any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
>before allowing them to be brought into the country.
>
>  
>
Err, it sounds like politics are influencing your reasoning. I don't 
care if it is Bush or Clinton or Mickey Mouse in the White House, please 
look at the law...  The fact that wire taps with an American at one end 
and no FISA or any other court order is the problem. The Law does not 
say both parties must be American. Where did you ever get that idea ? If 
both parties are foreign and the communication crosses US equipment, all 
the more power to who ever wants to intercept it :-)  What I am talking 
about is not following the Constitution because "The law was outdated".  
So, if the original Law has no language about spying on Americans. then 
simply the Forth Amendment is sufficient - a court order is required. 
Period.

 From Cornell - 
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html

Notice under 1802 (b) that an American CAN NOT BE A PARTY TO THE WIRETAP 
!!!!  And this is the updated law, which the Exceuttive Branch still 
would have violated post 9-11.

Title 50, Chapter 36, subchapter 1,  ? 1801.
(f) "Electronic surveillance" means--
(1) the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance 
device of the contents of any wire or radio communication sent by or 
intended to be received by a particular, known United States person who 
is in the United States, if the contents are acquired by intentionally 
targeting that United States person, under circumstances in which a 
person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be 
required for law enforcement purposes;
(2) the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance 
device of the contents of any wire communication to or from a person in 
the United States, without the consent of any party thereto, if such 
acquisition occurs in the United States, but does not include the 
acquisition of those communications of computer trespassers that would 
be permissible under section 2511 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002511----000-.html> 
(2)(i) 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002511----000-.html#2_i> 
of title 18 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18.html>;
(3) the intentional acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other 
surveillance device of the contents of any radio communication, under 
circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy 
and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes, and if 
both the sender and all intended recipients are located within the 
United States; or
(4) the installation or use of an electronic, mechanical, or other 
surveillance device in the United States for monitoring to acquire 
information, other than from a wire or radio communication, under 
circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy 
and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes.


    ? 1802. Electronic surveillance authorization without court order;
    certification by Attorney General; reports to Congressional
    committees; transmittal under seal; duties and compensation of
    communication common carrier; applications; jurisdiction of court

How Current is This? 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/HowCurrent.php/?tn=50&fragid=T50F00510&extid=usc_sec_50_00001802----000-&sourcedate=2007-12-26&proctime=Thu%20Dec%2027%2004:39:41%202007> 

(a)
(1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney 
General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order 
under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for 
periods of up to one year if the Attorney General certifies in writing 
under oath that--
(A) the electronic surveillance is solely directed at--
(i) the acquisition of the contents of communications transmitted by 
means of communications used exclusively between or among foreign 
powers, as defined in section 1801 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html> 
(a)(1) 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html#a_1>, 
(2), or (3) of this title; or
(ii) the acquisition of technical intelligence, other than the spoken 
communications of individuals, from property or premises under the open 
and exclusive control of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html> 
(a)(1) 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html#a_1>, 
(2), or (3) of this title;
(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will 
acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States 
person is a party; and
(C) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such 
surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under 
section 1801 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html> 
(h) 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html#h> 
of this title; and
if the Attorney General reports such minimization procedures and any 
changes thereto to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence 
and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence at least thirty days 
prior to their effective date, unless the Attorney General determines 
immediate action is required and notifies the committees immediately of 
such minimization procedures and the reason for their becoming effective 
immediately.



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 23 15:52:35 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:52:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>
	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
>> This is the type of reasoning that allowed Hitler his ultimate control.
>>
>>> He did not get it over night. He got it piece by piece. The Executive 
>>> branch did not get all this power since 9-11, it has been a building 
>>> process. Right now, it is past the line in the Constitution.
>>>
>>> Cold war or not, Law is Law.
>>>    
>>>
>> Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.
>>
>> FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
>> States to another location within the United States), and is
>> a necessary
>>
>> The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
>> external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
>> always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
>> communications between a party within their borders and
>> another party outside of their borders.
>>
>> In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
>> actually from one foreign location to another foreign
>> location, which just happen to be routed through the
>> U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
>> clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
>> country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
>> be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
>> any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
>> before allowing them to be brought into the country.
>>
>>  
>>
> Err, it sounds like politics are influencing your reasoning. I don't 
> care if it is Bush or Clinton or Mickey Mouse in the White House, please 
> look at the law...  The fact that wire taps with an American at one end 
> and no FISA or any other court order is the problem. The Law does not 
> say both parties must be American. Where did you ever get that idea ? If 
> both parties are foreign and the communication crosses US equipment, all 
> the more power to who ever wants to intercept it :-)  What I am talking 
> about is not following the Constitution because "The law was outdated".  

yes, the FISA law is outdated.

Monitoring FOREIGN COMMUNICATION is not unconstitutional, and never
will be.

> So, if the original Law has no language about spying on Americans. then 

Nobody is "SPYING ON AMERICANS"

The U.S government reserves the right to intercept foreign
communications.

> simply the Forth Amendment is sufficient - a court order is required.

The fourth amendment says "no UNREASONABLE" searches or seizures.

Monitoring foreign communication is not "unreasonable" -- no court
in ANY nation of the world has ever held it to be so.


The more the left protests about this sort of thing, the more
it makes believe that what they're REALLY worried about is
that it's going to lead to the revelation of how much of their
own domestic actions are coordinated with foreign organizations
who have absolutely no respect for the ideals of the U.S.
Constitution.

That's what this hysteria is really about -- that so many on
the left are, in their hearts...treasonous.

It's one thing to protect your rights.

It's quite another to use those rights in a quest to overthrow
the very system which guarantees your rights.  Leftist ideology
is completely at odds with the very notion of individual rights --
and yet it is only the left which is complaining about supposed
infringements on their individual rights.

Since that completely defies logic, the only conclusion one can
make is that the left is worried about something else..something
which is so damaging, that they cannot openly protest to protect
it, therefore, they are trying to use this bogus canard as a
stalking horse.


> Period.

Really.

Ever heard of the Zimmerman Telegram?

Did the British act wrongfully?




From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Feb 23 17:27:55 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:27:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802101510r34c155e4ub2bdf15028411676@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net> <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802101510r34c155e4ub2bdf15028411676@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1203805675.4099.202.camel@plumber.site>


On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 18:10 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> --- Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> > >       The expert option still has the same results, missing 7GB.
> > > Same with any other OS.  I'm trying  to use fdisk to partition it now.
> >         Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> > last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> > found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> > allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> > available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?
> 
> Have you tried blowing away the boot sector?  I use MBRWiz:
> <http://www.mbrwizard.com> -- it can be used with a DOS boot-disk or
> Linux.

	Okay, I'm not really sure how I did it but something happened. I was
not able to get a working DOS/Win boot disk to get MBRWiz working. I
found a bootable iso called "supergrubdisk" which promised to unhide any
hidden partitions. I'm not really sure it did that but I do think what
it did was to properly flag/label the partitions. Story of my life. All
of a sudden I'm booting off the hard disk into my last failed install. I
did also find a Parted Magic live cd that among other things had GParted
on it. With that I partitioned the disk according to what I wanted.
(/, /boot, /usr, swap, /var, /tmp, /opt and /home). So with the two of
them reformated and checked my hard disk, which according to fdisk still
has 5475 unallocated sectors. I do think Ray was right as well because
gparted reports 100GB/93.16GIB. It is now working, I must sort out the
vagaries of suspend and transfer most of my home directory and my dot
files. Sadly I don't know exactly what I did, but it started working
after I ran the supergrubdisk.
	Thank you all for your help and advice.

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 23 18:36:54 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:36:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] RMS steps down as GNU Emacs maintainer
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802231832080.5045@banana.sluggo.net>

It's the end of an era:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-02/msg02140.html

As an avid Emacs user, all I can say is that I am grateful that
Richard Stallman wrote such a fantastic piece of free software.

/me bows down to his RMS statue

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 23 13:48:32 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:48:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>
	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C06A80.5000305@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>>> <>Then we have become as bad as Joseph Stalin when we ignore our
>>>> Constitution and the Geneva Convention. These "Enemy Combatants" 
>>>> held in
>>>> Cuba were denied protection under the Geneva Convention for YEARS !!
>> THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO GENEVA CONVENTION PROTECTION.
>>
>> Fight without a uniform -- and you lose all Geneva Convention 
>> protections.
>>
>>  
>>
> Well, from their perspective, they ARE in uniform. The Muslin uniform. 
> Remember, to _them_ this is a religious war. We are the Super Power that 
> history proves will fall. If we don't hold ourselves to a higher 
> standard than they do, we will only accelerate our fall.

True. In any event, since they choose to fight outside the
rules of the Geneva Conventions, the have also chosen to
sacrifice the protections of the Geneva Conventions if they
happen to be captured.




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb 23 23:08:11 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:08:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>
	<47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>


>>>Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.
>>>
>>>FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
>>>States to another location within the United States), and is
>>>a necessary
>>>
>>>The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
>>>external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
>>>always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
>>>communications between a party within their borders and
>>>another party outside of their borders.
>>>
>>>In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
>>>actually from one foreign location to another foreign
>>>location, which just happen to be routed through the
>>>U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
>>>clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
>>>country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
>>>be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
>>>any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
>>>before allowing them to be brought into the country.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Err, it sounds like politics are influencing your reasoning. I don't 
>>care if it is Bush or Clinton or Mickey Mouse in the White House, please 
>>look at the law...  The fact that wire taps with an American at one end 
>>and no FISA or any other court order is the problem. The Law does not 
>>say both parties must be American. Where did you ever get that idea ? If 
>>both parties are foreign and the communication crosses US equipment, all 
>>the more power to who ever wants to intercept it :-)  What I am talking 
>>about is not following the Constitution because "The law was outdated".  
>>    
>>
>
>yes, the FISA law is outdated.
>
>Monitoring FOREIGN COMMUNICATION is not unconstitutional, and never
>will be.
>
>  
>
>>So, if the original Law has no language about spying on Americans. then 
>>    
>>
>
>Nobody is "SPYING ON AMERICANS"
>
>The U.S government reserves the right to intercept foreign
>communications.
>
>  
>
>>simply the Forth Amendment is sufficient - a court order is required.
>>    
>>
>
>The fourth amendment says "no UNREASONABLE" searches or seizures.
>
>Monitoring foreign communication is not "unreasonable" -- no court
>in ANY nation of the world has ever held it to be so.
>
>
>The more the left protests about this sort of thing, the more
>it makes believe that what they're REALLY worried about is
>that it's going to lead to the revelation of how much of their
>own domestic actions are coordinated with foreign organizations
>who have absolutely no respect for the ideals of the U.S.
>Constitution.
>
>That's what this hysteria is really about -- that so many on
>the left are, in their hearts...treasonous.
>
>It's one thing to protect your rights.
>
>It's quite another to use those rights in a quest to overthrow
>the very system which guarantees your rights.  Leftist ideology
>is completely at odds with the very notion of individual rights --
>and yet it is only the left which is complaining about supposed
>infringements on their individual rights.
>
>Since that completely defies logic, the only conclusion one can
>make is that the left is worried about something else..something
>which is so damaging, that they cannot openly protest to protect
>it, therefore, they are trying to use this bogus canard as a
>stalking horse.
>  
>
Wow. I was in shock to read this. Really. As a right wing conservative 
who voted for G.W. both times, I could not disagree more with this 
reasoning. If I had known G.W. was going to trash the Constitution, 
separation of powers, etc., I would have voted for anyone else the 
second time. I understand the reasons for Basic Training conditioning 
the minds of our brave solders, I just did not think it has gone beyond 
upholding the Constitution, even if the threat is domestic and at the 
top of the chain of command. Those I know in the Far Right (read 
Michigan Militia) are more concerned than I am that our civil rights are 
less important than attempting to protect us from terrorists. Slippery 
slope is trading freedom for perceived safety. Our founding Fathers 
understood this.

So did George Orwell. 1984 is a good example.

"With Liberty and Justice for all."

That is all I have to say.

-dave


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 10:44:52 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:44:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>

The IR jamming topic was fascinating - the discussion of how it might
be implemented and what effects it has on consumer gadgets was very
interesting.  It has since turned into a political discussion.  Since
the subject quite clearly says the topic is OT, I can't simply ask you
guys to take the discussion elsewhere.

This got me thinking, and that got me searching. Are there any clients
and/or plugins that allow ignoring sub-threads?  Not the whole thread,
just a certain root message and all threads below that root message.
My searching got no where, and I'm not in inclined to write a new
client and/or plugin that supports this idea.

Does anyone know of or use a client and/or plugin that supports this
idea?  I imagine it would see some decent use in mailing lists
everywhere.

I welcome your thoughts,
Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sun Feb 24 11:03:49 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 11:03:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47C19565.60204@ameritech.net>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> The IR jamming topic was fascinating - the discussion of how it might
> be implemented and what effects it has on consumer gadgets was very
> interesting.  It has since turned into a political discussion.  Since
> the subject quite clearly says the topic is OT, I can't simply ask you
> guys to take the discussion elsewhere.

Actually you can. MDLUG provides a convenient "elsewhere" called the
mdlug-discuss list. This is where OT discussions properly belong. If you
have any concerns about ruffling feathers with your "take it elsewhere"
request feel free to drop a line to the list moderator
mailto:listmod at mdlug.org. Garry is on line most of the time, and steps
in on occasion, as needed.

I was tempted to speak up about that thread myself, but it kept veering
back into the telecom aspect which is arguably a legitimate topic for
discussion.


> This got me thinking, and that got me searching. Are there any clients
> and/or plugins that allow ignoring sub-threads?  Not the whole thread,
> just a certain root message and all threads below that root message.
> My searching got no where, and I'm not in inclined to write a new
> client and/or plugin that supports this idea.

I don't know of any such client, and I don't know that I would trust the
heuristics. Personally I already look at my spam's sender/subject info
as I delete it from thunderbird's junk folder.

Thunderbird can display message threads to show which messages decend
from which branch. It might make most sense to just keep one "do not
read" message flagged in your inbox and manually delete all follow ups
to it.

> Does anyone know of or use a client and/or plugin that supports this
> idea?  I imagine it would see some decent use in mailing lists
> everywhere.
> 
> I welcome your thoughts,
> Clinton
> 



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 24 15:43:55 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:43:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>	<47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>
	<47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C1D70B.7030101@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>>> Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.
>>>>
>>>> FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
>>>> States to another location within the United States), and is
>>>> a necessary
>>>>
>>>> The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
>>>> external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
>>>> always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
>>>> communications between a party within their borders and
>>>> another party outside of their borders.
>>>>
>>>> In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
>>>> actually from one foreign location to another foreign
>>>> location, which just happen to be routed through the
>>>> U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
>>>> clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
>>>> country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
>>>> be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
>>>> any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
>>>> before allowing them to be brought into the country.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>> Err, it sounds like politics are influencing your reasoning. I don't 
>>> care if it is Bush or Clinton or Mickey Mouse in the White House, please 
>>> look at the law...  The fact that wire taps with an American at one end 
>>> and no FISA or any other court order is the problem. The Law does not 
>>> say both parties must be American. Where did you ever get that idea ? If 
>>> both parties are foreign and the communication crosses US equipment, all 
>>> the more power to who ever wants to intercept it :-)  What I am talking 
>>> about is not following the Constitution because "The law was outdated".  
>>>    
>>>
>> yes, the FISA law is outdated.
>>
>> Monitoring FOREIGN COMMUNICATION is not unconstitutional, and never
>> will be.
>>
>>  
>>
>>> So, if the original Law has no language about spying on Americans. then 
>>>    
>>>
>> Nobody is "SPYING ON AMERICANS"
>>
>> The U.S government reserves the right to intercept foreign
>> communications.
>>
>>  
>>
>>> simply the Forth Amendment is sufficient - a court order is required.
>>>    
>>>
>> The fourth amendment says "no UNREASONABLE" searches or seizures.
>>
>> Monitoring foreign communication is not "unreasonable" -- no court
>> in ANY nation of the world has ever held it to be so.
>>
>>
>> The more the left protests about this sort of thing, the more
>> it makes believe that what they're REALLY worried about is
>> that it's going to lead to the revelation of how much of their
>> own domestic actions are coordinated with foreign organizations
>> who have absolutely no respect for the ideals of the U.S.
>> Constitution.
>>
>> That's what this hysteria is really about -- that so many on
>> the left are, in their hearts...treasonous.
>>
>> It's one thing to protect your rights.
>>
>> It's quite another to use those rights in a quest to overthrow
>> the very system which guarantees your rights.  Leftist ideology
>> is completely at odds with the very notion of individual rights --
>> and yet it is only the left which is complaining about supposed
>> infringements on their individual rights.
>>
>> Since that completely defies logic, the only conclusion one can
>> make is that the left is worried about something else..something
>> which is so damaging, that they cannot openly protest to protect
>> it, therefore, they are trying to use this bogus canard as a
>> stalking horse.
>>  
>>
> Wow. I was in shock to read this. Really. As a right wing conservative 
> who voted for G.W. both times, I could not disagree more with this 
> reasoning. If I had known G.W. was going to trash the Constitution, 
> separation of powers, etc., I would have voted for anyone else the 
> second time. I understand the reasons for Basic Training conditioning 
> the minds of our brave solders, I just did not think it has gone beyond 
> upholding the Constitution, even if the threat is domestic and at the 
> top of the chain of command. Those I know in the Far Right (read 
> Michigan Militia) are more concerned than I am that our civil rights are 
> less important than attempting to protect us from terrorists. Slippery 
> slope is trading freedom for perceived safety. Our founding Fathers 
> understood this.

I'm a very strict Libertarian who actually reads the Constitution.

The government has certain powers.  Searching all that crosses
the borders (both inbound and outbound) is one of those powers.

Suppose the communication in question were not by telephone because
the technology were not available -- is there *ANY* doubt that
the government would be within its Constitutional Powers to
search any envelope with a return address of any person KNOWN
to be at war with the country?

This has NOTHING to do with the rights of citizens, and
EVERYTHING to do with the Government's first and foremost
responsibility of protecting the citizenry's right to life.
("The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"...
yes, that's in the Declaration of Independance, but the
arguments based on the DoI is accepted by the Supreme Court).

> 
> So did George Orwell. 1984 is a good example.
> 
> "With Liberty and Justice for all."
> 
> That is all I have to say.
> 




From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 19:08:48 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:08:48 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>  This got me thinking, and that got me searching. Are there any clients
>  and/or plugins that allow ignoring sub-threads?  Not the whole thread,
>  just a certain root message and all threads below that root message.
>  My searching got no where, and I'm not in inclined to write a new
>  client and/or plugin that supports this idea.

I use gmail (so do you), and heavily utilize the 'mute' command ->
shortcut == 'm'.  Hit 'm' on your keyboard while reading this thread.
You will notice that gmail mutes the conversation and you will not see
any more emails on this topic :-)

>  Does anyone know of or use a client and/or plugin that supports this
>  idea?  I imagine it would see some decent use in mailing lists
>  everywhere.

There may be a non-webmail way to do this, but I don't know of one...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 21:59:59 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:59:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Kristian Erik Hermansen
<kristian.hermansen at gmail.com> wrote:
>  I use gmail (so do you), and heavily utilize the 'mute' command ->
>  shortcut == 'm'.  Hit 'm' on your keyboard while reading this thread.
>  You will notice that gmail mutes the conversation and you will not see
>  any more emails on this topic :-)

This causes the whole thread to be ignored, which isn't what I want.
I'm looking to ignore sub-threads, take for example a thread that may
look like this:

Interesting thread
-Interesting reply
--Interesting reply
---somewhat interesting political comparison
----political rant  (ignore this and it's sub-threads)
-----political rant (ignored)
------political rant (ignored)
-Interesting reply
--Interesting reply

If I use mute or any ignore equivalent, the majority of browsers will
cause the whole thread to be ignored.  Raymond made a good point that
ignoring certain sub-threads may cause me to miss some of the good
stuff - that's something I can live with since I chose to ignore that
particular sub-thread.  It isn't much different than ignoring a whole
thread and possibly missing a useful nugget or two.

I'm just looking to personally ignore the thread branches which are of
little value to myself.  This could apply to political discussions,
ethical discussions, or even discussions on the differences between
Suse and Debian.

Ignoring a whole thread is a bad idea.  Let's say a particular thread
with many off-topic discussions is ignored by me, and eventually dies.
 The root of this thread may have been something interesting which
someones, maybe weeks or months later, decides to add their own good
content to the thread.  If I've ignored the whole thread, I'll never
know that person's contribution.  If I can ignore particular
sub-threads which are of little value, then I'm running a smaller
risk.

Yes, I'm being nit-picky on this.  I'm sure there are many others out
there who would agree with these thoughts and opinions, whether
they're on this list or not.

Every one has an opinion, I just might not want to know everyone's opinion.
=)
Clinton


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 22:11:35 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:11:35 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802241911j47a0939bp4e9f5c9d73730755@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>  This causes the whole thread to be ignored, which isn't what I want.
>  I'm looking to ignore sub-threads, take for example a thread that may
>  look like this:
>
>  Interesting thread
>  -Interesting reply
>  --Interesting reply
>  ---somewhat interesting political comparison
>  ----political rant  (ignore this and it's sub-threads)
>  -----political rant (ignored)
>  ------political rant (ignored)
>  -Interesting reply
>  --Interesting reply

I'm sure it could be done, by utilizing the "In Reply To" message id.
GMaill does not seem to have this feature.  Try requesting it.  Of
course, some people may reply in interesting ways, and perhaps
omitting the "In Reply To" message id, which would cause some
issues...

>  If I use mute or any ignore equivalent, the majority of browsers will
>  cause the whole thread to be ignored.  Raymond made a good point that
>  ignoring certain sub-threads may cause me to miss some of the good
>  stuff - that's something I can live with since I chose to ignore that
>  particular sub-thread.  It isn't much different than ignoring a whole
>  thread and possibly missing a useful nugget or two.

It is not a function of the web browser...

>  I'm just looking to personally ignore the thread branches which are of
>  little value to myself.  This could apply to political discussions,
>  ethical discussions, or even discussions on the differences between
>  Suse and Debian.

Sure...

>  Ignoring a whole thread is a bad idea.  Let's say a particular thread
>  with many off-topic discussions is ignored by me, and eventually dies.
>   The root of this thread may have been something interesting which
>  someones, maybe weeks or months later, decides to add their own good
>  content to the thread.  If I've ignored the whole thread, I'll never
>  know that person's contribution.  If I can ignore particular
>  sub-threads which are of little value, then I'm running a smaller
>  risk.

OK.  But I tend to think of it like a spreading bacteria.  Once the
rants start going, I'm not interested any longer and hit that mute
feature :-)  Sure, I may miss something, but the benefit far outweighs
the loss IMHO.  If we had the sub-mute feature, I would use it
perhaps!
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 24 21:41:25 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:41:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C2109A.90202@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>	<47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>	<47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>
	<47C1D70B.7030101@hotpop.com> <47C2109A.90202@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C22AD5.7090500@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
>>>>>>           
>>
>> I'm a very strict Libertarian who actually reads the Constitution.
>>
>> The government has certain powers.  Searching all that crosses
>> the borders (both inbound and outbound) is one of those powers.
>>
>> Suppose the communication in question were not by telephone because
>> the technology were not available -- is there *ANY* doubt that
>> the government would be within its Constitutional Powers to
>> search any envelope with a return address of any person KNOWN
>> to be at war with the country?
>>
>> This has NOTHING to do with the rights of citizens, and
>> EVERYTHING to do with the Government's first and foremost
>> responsibility of protecting the citizenry's right to life.
>> ("The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"...
>> yes, that's in the Declaration of Independance, but the
>> arguments based on the DoI is accepted by the Supreme Court).
>>
>>   
> Hi Aaron. This too really shocks me too. ALL of the people I know in the 
> Militia are also strict Libertarians. I usually vote Libertarian in an 
> election if I don't know any of the candidates. Are you joking about 
> this ? If not, I suppose Ron Paul is the person you would vote for next 
> ? By definition I think he should be on the Libertarian ballot.
> 

I would never joke about an issue so serious.

I spent 6 months in Operation Noble Eagle, working in a Port of
Entry.  Until a person is ADMITTED into the country, the government
recognizes very few rights.  You can be detained without warrant,
or even probably cause.  At a Port of Entry, you have no right to
free speech, nor a right to remain silent.  Nor do you have a right
to an attorney while in a port of entry (If you are charged with a
crime, you will then be turned over to another law enforcement,
at which point you will THEN have a right to an attorney, but not
while in the port of entry).  The only right you do have is a
right to life...provided you don't provoke ICE to shoot you.

As to anything in your possession, or anything coming into or
leaving from the country, it MUST be made available for
inspection by Customs.  This includes ALL communications.
Customs has Constitutional authority to seize objects,
(including communications) -- not merely to reject it, but
to seize it the object is either prohibited from entering
into the United States (which includes any communication for
the purpose of overthrowing the U.S. government, which is a
long term goal of the Islamic terrorists.  If you don't think
it can happen here, look at what is happening in London--
things have progressed to a state in which the Archbishop of
Canterbury was inspired to remark that he thinks that sooner
rather than later, the UK will have to recognize Sharia law
courts which operate entirely outside of the UK legal system.
The UK's political system is slowly but surely being
subverted by a civilian invasion of people who move to
England, but apparently want to pretend that they still
live in Pakistan, egged on by a few organized radicals
who take advantage of the same knee-jerk sympathies of
the "multi-culturalist" nihilists who are just as bad
in the UK as they are here.).


*IF* you depart or arrive from say, any old dock, and visit,
for example, Canada, you are legally required to report the
departure and/or arrival to Immigration, and to report any
and all items which left or entered the country (for these
purposes, any substance or item which you leave and return
with is not considered to be leaving or entering the country.
Same thing goes for anything which a visitor brings with
them, and then takes with them when they depart).

The *ONLY* exception to warrantless search and even seizure
of communications recognized by *ANY* country is the
diplomatic pouch.

Like all national governments, our Federal governments is
a sovereign power.  It retains those powers SO THAT IT MAY
FULFILL ITS OBLIGATIONS.

The Constitution is *NOT* a one-sided suicide pact.
[I.e. it was never intended to be a tool for another
nation or ideology to destroy the very society which
the Constitution protects.]

> Have you heard this short address to Congress about this topic we have 
> been debating ?

No.

But I read the Constitution, and there is NOTHING about the
monitoring of international communications which violates the
Constitution in any way.

The Constitution prohibits UNREASONABLE searches and seizures.

Tapping the telephone call originating from a telephone
number found in the cell phone of a known terrorist does
not constitute in any way an UNREASONABLE search any more
than intercepting enemy communications in written form.

The federal government even has the right to censor the
mail of ITS OWN SOLDIERS who are overseas.

Since the federal government has the legitimate power to
censor (read, and even redact) MY mail when I'm overseas
in a war zone, then it is most illogical to assume that
there is no legitimate authority and power to do the same
to all communications coming originating from people or
addresses (which in this case, would be a telephone
number) known to be associated with the activities of
a movement which is at war with the United States (and
in fact, almost every other government more moderate
than the Taliban).

Follow-ups pointed at mdlug-discuss

> 
> http://factbeat.com/get_story.php?id=245#comm
> 
> -dave





From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 25 00:35:35 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 00:35:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming  [Topic close: moderation]
In-Reply-To: <47C1D70B.7030101@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>	<47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>	<47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>
	<47C1D70B.7030101@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C253A7.8040302@comcast.net>

<Ex Cathedra> The topic has gone overlong and way off topic.  Please
continue you political discussion in private.</Ex Cathedra>

-- 
Garry Stahl -- Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 25 13:16:44 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 13:16:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47BF863E.7070704@ameritech.net>
References: <47BF863E.7070704@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47C3060C.3010708@comcast.net>

I am trying to share a fat32 partition on my Linux box with a WinXP box
also on the network.  I turned Samba Server on.  I think I have the
setting right for the partition I want shared.  Do I need client
software on the WinXP box?

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Feb 25 13:18:39 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 13:18:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C3060C.3010708@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>

You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.

What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on the WinXP Box to
be able to connect to the Samba box.

Create a Unix user.

Then create a Samba user with the same name.


-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:17 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] Samba
> 
> I am trying to share a fat32 partition on my Linux box with a 
> WinXP box also on the network.  I turned Samba Server on.  I 
> think I have the setting right for the partition I want 
> shared.  Do I need client software on the WinXP box?
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Star Trek mort. 
> Viva la Star Trek admiraetur The Olde Phoenix Inn 
> Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From ldaphelp at thuemmel.com  Mon Feb 25 13:45:09 2008
From: ldaphelp at thuemmel.com (Mark Thuemmel)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 13:45:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C30CB5.6040503@thuemmel.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.
> What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on the WinXP Box to
> be able to connect to the Samba box.
> Create a Unix user.
> Then create a Samba user with the same name.
> -Rob
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
>> Subject: [mdlug] Samba
>>
>> I am trying to share a fat32 partition on my Linux box with a 
>> WinXP box also on the network.  I turned Samba Server on.  I 
>> think I have the setting right for the partition I want 
>> shared.  Do I need client software on the WinXP box?
>> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.


The Samba Fault Tree in http://www.faqs.org/docs/samba/ch12.html has a 
nice step by step process to trouble shoot Samba.

The distribution you are using probably has its own preferred way to 
administer Samba....which flavor of Linux is this on?

Or you may just try adding this quick and dirty to your 
/etc/samba/smb.conf file and restart Samba.  Then browse from your WinXP 
box.


[test]
path = /home/garry
force user = garry
force group = garry
read only = No
guest ok = Yes
available = yes
browsable = yes
public = yes
writable = yes



From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Mon Feb 25 19:02:38 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:02:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] How to count perl NCSL
Message-ID: <20080226000238.AEAD3127CEE@starfox.local>

Perl users,

How can one count the NCSL (non-comment source lines) in a perl script?

Can anyone (dis)recommend software metrics tools for perl scripts?

How can one search CPAN for such tools?

TIA,
-- 
Bob

  "Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code,
   will be a violent psychopath who knows where you live."
     -- Damian Conway 1999 "Perl Best Practices"



From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 25 19:26:15 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:26:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] How to count perl NCSL
In-Reply-To: <20080226000238.AEAD3127CEE@starfox.local>
References: <20080226000238.AEAD3127CEE@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802251919210.5386@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-25, Monsieur Robert Meier a ecrit:
> How can one count the NCSL (non-comment source lines) in a perl script?

To count noncomment lines (including blank lines):

egrep -cv '^[[:space:]]*#' yourscript.pl

To count noncomment lines which are not blank:

egrep -cv '(^[[:space:]]*#|^[[:space:]]*$)' yourscript.pl

Michael


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 25 20:16:17 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:16:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C36861.1040502@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.
>
> What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on the WinXP Box to
> be able to connect to the Samba box.
>
> Create a Unix user.
>
> Then create a Samba user with the same name.
>   

This I don't get.  I can create a user on Gate, no problem.  How do I
create a Samba user?

Oh Suse 9.3 going on here.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 25 21:11:39 2008
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:11:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C36861.1040502@comcast.net>
References: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
	<47C36861.1040502@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1203991899.3268.0.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

smbpasswd is your friend :)

-Jason

On Mon, 2008-02-25 at 20:16 -0500, Garry Stahl wrote:
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.
> >
> > What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on the WinXP Box to
> > be able to connect to the Samba box.
> >
> > Create a Unix user.
> >
> > Then create a Samba user with the same name.
> >   
> 
> This I don't get.  I can create a user on Gate, no problem.  How do I
> create a Samba user?
> 
> Oh Suse 9.3 going on here.
> 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080225/e7cda89d/attachment.sig>

From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Mon Feb 25 22:01:41 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:01:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] How to count perl NCSL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802251919210.5386@banana.sluggo.net> (message
	from Michael Corral on Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:26:15 -0500 (EST))
References: <20080226000238.AEAD3127CEE@starfox.local>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802251919210.5386@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20080226030141.66F26127CEE@starfox.local>

Michael,

> To count noncomment lines (including blank lines):
> egrep -cv '^[[:space:]]*#' yourscript.pl

Thank you.

That is a reasonable approximation.

Is there a tool, that parses perl to handle
other forms of comments (e.g. perldoc) and non-comments (e.g. #s in quotes)?

Has anyone used sclc (http://www.cmcrossroads.com/bradapp/clearperl/sclc.html)?

TIA,
-- 
Bob

  "From now on we live in a world where man has walked on the Moon.
   It's not a miracle; we just decided to go."
     -- Tom Hanks


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Feb 26 09:29:13 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:29:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C36861.1040502@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>

Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.

Yast2 has a tool for creating Samba users.

However... From the CLI.

First have a UNIX User created.

Then type in (as root)

smbpasswd -a <username>

This will add the user, then you will need to use smbpasswd with the
username and no flag to create the password for that user.


-Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 8:16 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Samba
> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.
> >
> > What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on 
> the WinXP 
> > Box to be able to connect to the Samba box.
> >
> > Create a Unix user.
> >
> > Then create a Samba user with the same name.
> >   
> 
> This I don't get.  I can create a user on Gate, no problem.  
> How do I create a Samba user?
> 
> Oh Suse 9.3 going on here.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Star Trek mort. 
> Viva la Star Trek admiraetur The Olde Phoenix Inn 
> Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Tue Feb 26 18:23:38 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:23:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] doxygen, C (not C++), imake
Message-ID: <20080226232338.7750D19E608@starfox.local>

doxygen users,

Is there a better tool than doxygen for extracting documentation from C code?

Is there a standard technique/target/macro for using doxygen with imake?

Does anyone have a Doxyfile they found useful for non-object-oriented C?

I'm looking to automate extraction of markup in C code.
The C code is not object oriented by struct,
but is weakly object oriented by file,
using static functions/variables analagous to private members,
and non-static functions analagous to public members.

I'm hoping someone more familiar with Doxyfile options can direct me
to settings that pick up
   @file marker in each file
   each static and non-static function whether or not marked
   static variables if marked

TIA,
-- 
Bob

  "The good news about computers is that they do what you tell them to do.
   The bad news is that they do what you tell them to do."
     -- Ted Nelson



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Wed Feb 27 12:46:25 2008
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:46:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
Message-ID: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just 
downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply 
all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.

From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 27 15:09:24 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:09:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C5C374.7020901@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
>
>   

I'm holding off until they get the kinks out of KDE 4.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 27 15:11:30 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:11:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C5C3F2.3060807@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
>
> Yast2 has a tool for creating Samba users.
>
> However... From the CLI.
>
> First have a UNIX User created.
>
> Then type in (as root)
>
> smbpasswd -a <username>
>
> This will add the user, then you will need to use smbpasswd with the
> username and no flag to create the password for that user.
>   

So smbpasswd -a <username>

Followed with

smbpasswd <username> <password>

Right?

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Feb 27 15:13:20 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:13:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C5C374.7020901@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080227201253.AD938C0C6@impelind.com>

KDE 4 isn't part of the core for OpenSuSe 10.3, it was offered as an
optional installable for "playing around" with.

The default KDE is 3.5.x and it rocks quite nicely. People whom I have shown
Linux to believe that the KDE 3.5.x desktop I am running in Windows XP at
first.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 3:09 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Samba
> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
> >
> >   
> 
> I'm holding off until they get the kinks out of KDE 4.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Star Trek mort. 
> Viva la Star Trek admiraetur The Olde Phoenix Inn 
> http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com Metro Detroit Linux Users Group 
> http://www.mdlug.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Feb 27 15:14:11 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:14:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C5C3F2.3060807@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080227201344.75381C0C6@impelind.com>

> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
> >
> > Yast2 has a tool for creating Samba users.
> >
> > However... From the CLI.
> >
> > First have a UNIX User created.
> >
> > Then type in (as root)
> >
> > smbpasswd -a <username>
> >
> > This will add the user, then you will need to use smbpasswd 
> with the 
> > username and no flag to create the password for that user.
> >   
> 
> So smbpasswd -a <username>
> 
> Followed with
> 
> smbpasswd <username> <password>
> 
> Right?
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 

  Yes.

  Longwinded, I can be.

	-Rob



From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 27 16:37:36 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:37:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080227201344.75381C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080227201344.75381C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C5D820.7080107@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>> Robert Adkins wrote:
>>     
>>> Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
>>>
>>> Yast2 has a tool for creating Samba users.
>>>
>>> However... From the CLI.
>>>
>>> First have a UNIX User created.
>>>
>>> Then type in (as root)
>>>
>>> smbpasswd -a <username>
>>>
>>> This will add the user, then you will need to use smbpasswd 
>>>       
>> with the 
>>     
>>> username and no flag to create the password for that user.
>>>   
>>>       
>> So smbpasswd -a <username>
>>
>> Followed with
>>
>> smbpasswd <username> <password>
>>
>> Right?
>>
>> --
>> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
>>
>>     
>
>   Yes.
>
>   Longwinded, I can be.
>   

But I finally have the shared drive working.  Thank you.  I can now use
ImageDupless form the XP to check graphics on the Fat32 drive on gate.

Now to solve the read/write issue


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From rjclay at gmail.com  Wed Feb 27 20:44:03 2008
From: rjclay at gmail.com (Robert J. Clay)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:44:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a379574a0802271744g64cc786fscabed34401b0f6c3@mail.gmail.com>

Dean,
On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Dean Durant <mdlug at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just
>  downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply
>  all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in

     Do you know for a fact that what you've downloaded does not
already have all the options you need, already?



-- 
Robert J. Clay
rjclay at gmail.com


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Wed Feb 27 20:51:19 2008
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:51:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C61397.9050200@wideopenwest.com>

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just 
> downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply 
> all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
> aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
> or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.

With apt-get you would use 'apt-get source package-name'

to down load source files.

make sure you have a like something like this in your 
/etc/apt/source.list file

deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ etch main contrib non-free

I don't use aptitude or any of the other apt-get front ends so can't 
help you there.

BD


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Wed Feb 27 21:53:16 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:53:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802271853o151d71b3g7e333fee69a986fa@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Dean Durant <mdlug at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just
>  downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply
>  all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
>  aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
>  or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.


To see what files were included with a package:

dpkg -L packagename

example:

dpkg -L squid3


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Feb 28 00:40:12 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:40:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080227201253.AD938C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080227201253.AD938C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C6493C.9010202@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> KDE 4 isn't part of the core for OpenSuSe 10.3, it was offered as an
> optional installable for "playing around" with.
>   

I know.  That is why I was going to wait another upgrade cycle before
upgrading.  I'm running 9.3 now.


Now I need to get this permissions thing worked out.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 28 00:47:15 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:47:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C6493C.9010202@comcast.net>
References: <20080227201253.AD938C0C6@impelind.com>
	<47C6493C.9010202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47C64AE3.8000900@arb.net>

Hi Garry, been using 10.3 for more than a year now. I would not wait for 
just that feature.

-dave

Garry Stahl wrote:

>Robert Adkins wrote:
>  
>
>>KDE 4 isn't part of the core for OpenSuSe 10.3, it was offered as an
>>optional installable for "playing around" with.
>>  
>>    
>>
>
>I know.  That is why I was going to wait another upgrade cycle before
>upgrading.  I'm running 9.3 now.
>
>
>Now I need to get this permissions thing worked out.
>
>  
>


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Feb 28 09:24:52 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:24:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C64AE3.8000900@arb.net>
Message-ID: <20080228142425.46470C0C6@impelind.com>

I agree.

9.3 is no longer officially supported, thus there are no readily available
patches/updates.

10.3 is still going to be supported for at least another year or two after
11.whatever is released.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Dave Arbogast
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:47 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Samba
> 
> Hi Garry, been using 10.3 for more than a year now. I would 
> not wait for just that feature.
> 
> -dave
> 
> Garry Stahl wrote:
> 
> >Robert Adkins wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>KDE 4 isn't part of the core for OpenSuSe 10.3, it was 
> offered as an 
> >>optional installable for "playing around" with.
> >>  
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >I know.  That is why I was going to wait another upgrade 
> cycle before 
> >upgrading.  I'm running 9.3 now.
> >
> >
> >Now I need to get this permissions thing worked out.
> >
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Thu Feb 28 14:07:18 2008
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:07:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1204225638.5377.30.camel@laptop01>

On Wed, 2008-02-27 at 09:46 -0800, Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just 
> downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply 
> all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
> aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
> or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.

You should just be able to do apt-get install squid



From rrclark at rrclark.net  Thu Feb 28 15:32:28 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:32:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C3060C.3010708@comcast.net>
References: <47BF863E.7070704@ameritech.net> <47C3060C.3010708@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281530070.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Garry Stahl wrote:

> I am trying to share a fat32 partition on my Linux box with a WinXP box
> also on the network.  I turned Samba Server on.  I think I have the
> setting right for the partition I want shared.  Do I need client
> software on the WinXP box?

Samba is the server, Windows network extensions built into WinXP act as 
the client, same as when you have a network client XP machine connecting 
to a Windows XP server.

Here:  http://us1.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Collection/


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Thu Feb 28 15:23:20 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:23:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281517530.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008, Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

> The IR jamming topic was fascinating - the discussion of how it might
> be implemented and what effects it has on consumer gadgets was very
> interesting.  It has since turned into a political discussion.  Since
> the subject quite clearly says the topic is OT, I can't simply ask you
> guys to take the discussion elsewhere.
>
> This got me thinking, and that got me searching. Are there any clients
> and/or plugins that allow ignoring sub-threads?  Not the whole thread,
> just a certain root message and all threads below that root message.
> My searching got no where, and I'm not in inclined to write a new
> client and/or plugin that supports this idea.
>
> Does anyone know of or use a client and/or plugin that supports this
> idea?  I imagine it would see some decent use in mailing lists
> everywhere.

Best luck I've had is to solve it at the procmail level. Create a 
.procmailrc file in your home directory. An entry like so should take care 
of the problem of OT messages, as long as the original writer obeys the 
undocumented convention in crafting the subject line:

:0:
* ^Subject:.*\[mdlug\]\ OT
$HOME/Mail/mail/MDLUG-OT

The end result is OT messages should be filtered to Mail/mail/MDLUG-OT/ 
subdirectory under your home directory.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Thu Feb 28 15:28:37 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:28:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008, Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Kristian Erik Hermansen
> <kristian.hermansen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  I use gmail (so do you), and heavily utilize the 'mute' command ->
>>  shortcut == 'm'.  Hit 'm' on your keyboard while reading this thread.
>>  You will notice that gmail mutes the conversation and you will not see
>>  any more emails on this topic :-)
>
> This causes the whole thread to be ignored, which isn't what I want.
> I'm looking to ignore sub-threads, take for example a thread that may
> look like this:
>
> Interesting thread
> -Interesting reply
> --Interesting reply
> ---somewhat interesting political comparison
> ----political rant  (ignore this and it's sub-threads)
> -----political rant (ignored)
> ------political rant (ignored)
> -Interesting reply
> --Interesting reply
>
> If I use mute or any ignore equivalent, the majority of browsers will
> cause the whole thread to be ignored.  Raymond made a good point that
> ignoring certain sub-threads may cause me to miss some of the good
> stuff - that's something I can live with since I chose to ignore that
> particular sub-thread.  It isn't much different than ignoring a whole
> thread and possibly missing a useful nugget or two.
>
> I'm just looking to personally ignore the thread branches which are of
> little value to myself.  This could apply to political discussions,
> ethical discussions, or even discussions on the differences between
> Suse and Debian.
>
> Ignoring a whole thread is a bad idea.  Let's say a particular thread
> with many off-topic discussions is ignored by me, and eventually dies.
> The root of this thread may have been something interesting which
> someones, maybe weeks or months later, decides to add their own good
> content to the thread.  If I've ignored the whole thread, I'll never
> know that person's contribution.  If I can ignore particular
> sub-threads which are of little value, then I'm running a smaller
> risk.
>
> Yes, I'm being nit-picky on this.  I'm sure there are many others out
> there who would agree with these thoughts and opinions, whether
> they're on this list or not.
>
> Every one has an opinion, I just might not want to know everyone's opinion.

I agree that you should have full control over it; however, it's sad that 
Google hasn't thought about the approach nor have the Thunderbird devs. I 
wonder if a bug report to either organization is in order?

I also wonder, does Gmail allow you to either forward email to a 
self-hosted mailserver or retrieve email via POP3 or similar protocol? 
Again, fetchmail and procmail would be your friends, and you could read 
messages with pine/alpine or similar curses-based mail client that would 
offer better filtering that you could ever get with webmail or 
Thunderbird.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Thu Feb 28 15:37:17 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:37:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281536560.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:

> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just
> downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply
> all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
> aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
> or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.

Run the following

apt-get update
apt-get install squid

Get back to us with any failure messages.


From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Feb 28 16:41:11 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:41:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-28, Monsieur Rich Clark <rrclark at rrclark.net> a ecrit:
> I also wonder, does Gmail allow you to either forward email to a
> self-hosted mailserver or retrieve email via POP3 or similar protocol?
> Again, fetchmail and procmail would be your friends, and you could read
> messages with pine/alpine or similar curses-based mail client that would
> offer better filtering that you could ever get with webmail or
> Thunderbird.

Using Alpine you could connect directly to Gmail via IMAP, and then
use Alpine's built-in filtering capabilities. That way you avoid both
the lousy webmail interface to Gmail and the procmail middleman.
There are lots of people doing exactly that. Here's a quick howto
for using Alpine (or the older Pine) with Gmail and IMAP:
http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/pc/#gmailIMAP

Michael


From gib at juno.com  Thu Feb 28 19:55:51 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 00:55:51 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>


I found a 20 inch monitor today.  It was sitting in the street in front of my house.  I wonder if someone wanted to abandon it and knew I collected old computer stuff.
_____________________________________________________________
Inventors: Does your idea have potential for millions? Click for info.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iie4kF8yr2UMiNBrsLZhibT82DYBBNjAbZO6hD1i42PnKz4dG/




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 28 20:06:42 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:06:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47C75AA2.9060907@arb.net>

I just gave a couple of 21" monitors to the Salvation Army in Walled 
Lake. They both work fine and are probably still there.  I don't miss 
them after moving to a 17" laptop. (1440x900)

-dave

gib at juno.com wrote:

>I found a 20 inch monitor today.  It was sitting in the street in front of my house.  I wonder if someone wanted to abandon it and knew I collected old computer stuff.
>_____________________________________________________________
>Inventors: Does your idea have potential for millions? Click for info.
>http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iie4kF8yr2UMiNBrsLZhibT82DYBBNjAbZO6hD1i42PnKz4dG/
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Thu Feb 28 21:43:59 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:43:59 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>  use Alpine's built-in filtering capabilities. That way you avoid both
>  the lousy webmail interface to Gmail and the procmail middleman.

What's wrong with the GMail interface?  I can be much more productive
using it than anything else.  I'd like to see you try successfully
searching gigabytes of email on a single machine in the same time that
Google does it via MapReduce ;-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Feb 28 22:04:21 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:04:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282157320.2883@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-28, Monsieur Kristian Erik Hermansen a ecrit:
>>  use Alpine's built-in filtering capabilities. That way you avoid both
>>  the lousy webmail interface to Gmail and the procmail middleman.
>
> What's wrong with the GMail interface?  I can be much more productive
> using it than anything else.  I'd like to see you try successfully
> searching gigabytes of email on a single machine in the same time that
> Google does it via MapReduce ;-)

Well, to each his/her own. I guess my idea of productivity doesn't
include waiting for a web browser to update the window every time I
want to do anything with my mail. Call me crazy. ;)

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 28 21:39:47 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:39:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
> I found a 20 inch monitor today.  It was sitting in the street in front of my house.  I wonder if someone wanted to abandon it and knew I collected old computer stuff.

So it's true.

There really is a Monitor Fairy ;-)




From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Thu Feb 28 22:19:53 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:19:53 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282157320.2883@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282157320.2883@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802281919u57d1db7bsdb0262d50045b33d@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>  Well, to each his/her own. I guess my idea of productivity doesn't
>  include waiting for a web browser to update the window every time I
>  want to do anything with my mail. Call me crazy. ;)

Agreed, but the threading and auto-hide features, auto-spam detection,
and other filtering options that I don't have to deal with keep me
loving GMail.  I don't have to manage my stuff and it's always up.
Nearly no downtime.  I have managed systems for long enough to
understand that there are a few kinds of people.  The smart people
like to solve a never-ending stream of problems very effectively and
efficiently.  In fact, sometimes these people enjoy just that.  The
wise people just avoid them :-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Feb 28 22:38:43 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:38:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802281919u57d1db7bsdb0262d50045b33d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282157320.2883@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802281919u57d1db7bsdb0262d50045b33d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282232290.3429@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-28, Monsieur Kristian Erik Hermansen a ecrit:
> Agreed, but the threading and auto-hide features, auto-spam detection,
> and other filtering options that I don't have to deal with keep me
> loving GMail.  I don't have to manage my stuff and it's always up.

You mean when you want certain messages filtered, Gmail is able to
read your mind and create the filters for you automatically without
you having to configure anything? Wow, Gmail is even more powerful
than I imagined! *gg*

> Nearly no downtime.  I have managed systems for long enough to
> understand that there are a few kinds of people.  The smart people
> like to solve a never-ending stream of problems very effectively and
> efficiently.  In fact, sometimes these people enjoy just that.  The
> wise people just avoid them :-)

Absolutely. And, of course, the not-so-wise people like to delude
themselves into thinking they're avoiding problems that actually
exist. ;)

Michael


From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 01:21:10 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:21:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <132697.65552.qm@web38011.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm using a 20" monitor that someone was giving away on the local free cycle list.  They thought it was a 19" at the time.  This one also has a nifty usb hub in the base.

----- Original Message ----
From: "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:55:51 PM
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today



I 
found 
a 
20 
inch 
monitor 
today.  
It 
was 
sitting 
in 
the 
street 
in 
front 
of 
my 
house.  
I 
wonder 
if 
someone 
wanted 
to 
abandon 
it 
and 
knew 
I 
collected 
old 
computer 
stuff.
_____________________________________________________________
Inventors: 
Does 
your 
idea 
have 
potential 
for 
millions? 
Click 
for 
info.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iie4kF8yr2UMiNBrsLZhibT82DYBBNjAbZO6hD1i42PnKz4dG/


_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Feb 29 01:36:00 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 01:36:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-28, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
> There really is a Monitor Fairy ;-)

CRTs are dying a rapid death. These days you can pretty much get
a free 20" CRT when you buy a box of Count Chocula.

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 01:46:50 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 01:46:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2008-02-28, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
>> There really is a Monitor Fairy ;-)
> 
> CRTs are dying a rapid death. These days you can pretty much get
> a free 20" CRT when you buy a box of Count Chocula.

I have a 21", which i think has another 10 good years left in it.

I bought it for $1400 in 1997... figuring it would last me 20
years, which comes to about $70/year.


So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
or to give it up.



From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 01:53:31 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:53:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <457393.26845.qm@web38006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


2008-02-28, 
Monsieur 
Aaron 
Kulkis 
a 
ecrit:
> 
There 
really 
is 
a 
Monitor 
Fairy 
;-)
> 
> 
CRTs 
are 
dying 
a 
rapid 
death. 
These 
days 
you 
can 
pretty 
much 
get
> 
a 
free 
20" 
CRT 
when 
you 
buy 
a 
box 
of 
Count 
Chocula.

Yeah, but who still eats Count Chocula?  they have to do something to get you to buy it




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 



From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Feb 29 03:20:04 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 03:20:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
> consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
> or to give it up.
>   

I ditched them for space considerations.  I never have had the room for
the beasts.  Less with multiple monitors in one room.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 13:33:11 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:33:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star' logo.  PC pc's!

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
> consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
> or to give it up.
>   





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb 29 13:33:42 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:33:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com> <47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802291033r25a4bd93u35663af4f17cb4ff@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:20 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>  I ditched them for space considerations.  I never have had the room for
>  the beasts.  Less with multiple monitors in one room.

Me too.  I also use a D-Link KVM switch.  I've got two 20 inch CRTs
sitting in a corner of my office and will probably end up with two
more soon.  Another problem with CRTs is the weight which causes most
desk tops to warp.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 14:22:17 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:22:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>

Scott Webster Wood wrote:
> Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
 > logo.  PC pc's!
> 

It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
everything to do with the economics of paying for
electricity.

This is why all of the various political "save energy"
measures are actually just ruses for some other agenda.

Truly energy efficient devices don't need to be subsidized.

Any time some group wants Congress to get involved to
mandate that people "use less energy"... there's some
other agenda at the roof of it.

Two years ago, we replaced a 1970's furnace with a new
high efficiency (98%+) furnace.  Last winter, our gas
bills were estimates based on the basis of consumption
over previous years.  We ended up accumulating so much
credit (due to overbilling) that despite a much colder
winter than the past several years, we still have
several hundred dollars of credit with the gas company.

If something is "energy efficient" but isn't being
used because of extremely high purchase costs, that
a very good indicator that there's a very substantial
energy input to make the thing in the first place.

This is why photoelectric cells are not economical up
here in Michigan -- the energy input to make the wafers
is so high, and in operation, the energy output so
low, that it takes YEARS just to recover the energy
used to make the device in the first place.  And
if the thing breaks (they're quite fragile) before
lasting that long, then this so-called "energy
saving" device has actually consumed more energy
than it ever produced.

And that's why nobody here is going to use them
for power production unless government clods in
Lansing or Washington subsidize them.




> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
>> consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
>> or to give it up.
>>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 




From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb 29 14:40:53 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:40:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20080229194028.A81BEC0C6@impelind.com>


> 
> If something is "energy efficient" but isn't being used 
> because of extremely high purchase costs, that a very good 
> indicator that there's a very substantial energy input to 
> make the thing in the first place.
> 
> This is why photoelectric cells are not economical up here in 
> Michigan -- the energy input to make the wafers is so high, 
> and in operation, the energy output so low, that it takes 
> YEARS just to recover the energy used to make the device in 
> the first place.  And if the thing breaks (they're quite 
> fragile) before lasting that long, then this so-called 
> "energy saving" device has actually consumed more energy than 
> it ever produced.
> 
> And that's why nobody here is going to use them for power 
> production unless government clods in Lansing or Washington 
> subsidize them.
> 
> 

	Aaron,

	You really should read more.

	http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051009202947.htm

	
http://breakfornews.com/my/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid
=491

	http://www.technewsworld.com/story/40971.html

	At least two of the above are about 3 years old articles. Some of
what they were talking about is beginning to become Market Ready. Also,
Michigan does receive, on average, enough sunlight to make these new panels
far more interesting than previously considered.

	Within the next five years, unless strongly fought against, these
new technologies will cause a massive drop in the costs of solar panels and
their increased output will contribute considerably to lowering the time
span before they pay themselves off in savings.

	Alternative Energy sources are the next "big thing", partly because
the technology is rising in capabilities while lowering in costs and the
"green" conscious consumer are also rising in numbers.

	There's a very recent story on nanoparticles being used to generate
significantly more Hyrdogen from cracking water then previously thought
possible. I recall it said something like the official government set
benchmark was a 10% increase by 2010 and this tech can provide a 85%
increase in production, today.

	-Rob



From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 14:53:22 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 11:53:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <614296.73864.qm@web38011.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sure it has to do with efficiency, but to say it has nothing to do with political correctness is hogwash.

----- Original Message ----
From: Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:22:17 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today

Scott Webster Wood wrote:
> Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
 > logo.  PC pc's!
> 

It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
everything to do with the economics of paying for
electricity.



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Fri Feb 29 14:53:26 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:53:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>  >
>
>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>  electricity.
>
<snip>

oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
Clinton



-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb 29 14:57:40 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:57:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802291157u5ed6029x78ff433519fd6639@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>  >
>
>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>  electricity.

Also air conditioning costs in the summer.  It will also reduce
heating costs if the electrical energy costs are greater then other
heating energy costs.

>  This is why all of the various political "save energy"
>  measures are actually just ruses for some other agenda.
>
>  Truly energy efficient devices don't need to be subsidized.

Not permanently anyways.  It takes incentives to achieve enough demand
and get prices down though mass production efficiency.

>  Any time some group wants Congress to get involved to
>  mandate that people "use less energy"... there's some
>  other agenda at the roof of it.

The are usually hidden costs and benefits to any program.  Ethanol may
not be the answer to everyone's energy problems yet but if organic
sources other than corn can be converted with greater efficiency then
it may reduce total energy costs in the future when other sources like
oil are much more expensive.  It takes time to develop the technology
however and if companies in Michigan do it first then the state stands
to benefit from their growth.  It's also an economic benefit to small
family farm operations like ADM and will provide jobs for many people
in China or whatever third-world country is the outsource leader then.

>  Two years ago, we replaced a 1970's furnace with a new
>  high efficiency (98%+) furnace.  Last winter, our gas
>  bills were estimates based on the basis of consumption
>  over previous years.  We ended up accumulating so much
>  credit (due to overbilling) that despite a much colder
>  winter than the past several years, we still have
>  several hundred dollars of credit with the gas company.
>
>  If something is "energy efficient" but isn't being
>  used because of extremely high purchase costs, that
>  a very good indicator that there's a very substantial
>  energy input to make the thing in the first place.

It's also a time lag issue with the development of the technology.
Furnaces did not get that efficient overnight.  Prior to improved heat
exchangers you only option was to disconnect them from the chimney and
exhaust them inside.  That doesn't work very well with oil furnaces
because of the odor.  You end up spending more money on air fresheners
than you gain on improved energy recovery.

>  This is why photoelectric cells are not economical up
>  here in Michigan -- the energy input to make the wafers
>  is so high, and in operation, the energy output so
>  low, that it takes YEARS just to recover the energy
>  used to make the device in the first place.  And
>  if the thing breaks (they're quite fragile) before
>  lasting that long, then this so-called "energy
>  saving" device has actually consumed more energy
>  than it ever produced.
>
>  And that's why nobody here is going to use them
>  for power production unless government clods in
>  Lansing or Washington subsidize them.

That can be partially compensated for by building more energy
efficient homes and utilizing thermal energy from solar radiation in
addition to electrical conversion.  Adjusting the Earth's inclination
of rotation would also increase the available energy.

Another problem with CRTs is the amount of lead and other toxins in
them.  I'm not sure how they compare to LCDs though.  CRTs can't be
just dumped into landfills without causing major environmental
problems.  Reuse only delays the problem as all monitors will
eventually fail.  They need to be recycled properly in China where
their rivers seem to handle the toxins better than ours.


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb 29 15:00:55 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:00:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C86477.506@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

>
>This is why photoelectric cells are not economical up
>here in Michigan -- the energy input to make the wafers
>is so high, and in operation, the energy output so
>low, that it takes YEARS just to recover the energy
>used to make the device in the first place.  And
>if the thing breaks (they're quite fragile) before
>lasting that long, then this so-called "energy
>saving" device has actually consumed more energy
>than it ever produced.
>
>And that's why nobody here is going to use them
>for power production unless government clods in
>Lansing or Washington subsidize them.
>
>
>  
>
I'd say the proof is in the pudding. Next time you drive through a 
construction zone, you'll notice ALL the little trailers with flashing 
lights are no longer powered by little diesel single cylinder 
generators, but with Photovoltic. Also, more and more you will notice 
solar cells hanging off  various remote sensors and cameras. This is 
because private businesses have seen they are cost effective NOW in 
Michigan.

Yes, if you scale up to your entire house there will be a 7 - 10 year 
ROI for the entire amount, but after that you are in the free power 
zone. Most of the equipment will still be under warranty for another 15 
- 18 years....

If government was really interested in energy independence, they would 
not be granting $200M per pop to auto companies for fuel cell research. 
This money could have gone a long way to putting PV on most of the homes 
in America. The cost of PV would have dropped that much more due to 
economy of scale.  But, there is a serious governmental problem with 
this, just as diesel-hybrid cars have - you loose part of your tax base 
with PV and with 40% efficient cars. Cars that can be ran on used veggie 
oil.  Fuel Cells keep your tax base as it is not feasible for you to 
make your own hydrogen and store it at the pressures a fuel cell car 
needs. If someone made such a system, they would likely pass laws 
against it as California did with running your diesel on much clearer 
burning veggie oil.  Got to keep the tax base.

-dave


From tcameron at redhat.com  Fri Feb 29 15:22:59 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:22:59 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>	<47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com>
	<47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47C869A3.9080706@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Garry Stahl wrote:
| Aaron Kulkis wrote:
|> So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
|> consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
|> or to give it up.
|>
|
| I ditched them for space considerations.  I never have had the room for
| the beasts.  Less with multiple monitors in one room.

Yeah, I dumped my CRTs for a pair of 19" ViewSonic LCDs in dual-head.
Video of my dual-head desktop with compiz-fusion at
http://www.camerontech.com/compiz-fusion-dual-head.ogg

- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHyGmjmzle50YHwaARAnhWAJwIEmzzaMy8OVab0U8XR+s13d4HIACdHXwa
OTP6l8JNIUfM/48gyZIT2Kk=
=k6xj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 29 15:23:48 2008
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:23:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com><47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>
To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today


> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>>  >
>>
>>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>>  electricity.
>>
> <snip>
>
> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
> Clinton

Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)

-Mike







From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb 29 15:34:20 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:34:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802291234v539402c5k67119e4578b196f8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Michael ORourke
<mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>
>  To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>  Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:53 PM
>  Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
>
>
>  > On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>  >> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>  >>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>  >>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>  >>  >
>  >>
>  >>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>  >>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>  >>  electricity.
>  >>
>  > <snip>
>  >
>  > oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
>  > Clinton
>
>  Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)

If someone was trying to develop a solution to the problem then the
content being created here is an excellent resource for testing.
Maybe we should split the topic off and call it "political rant filter
testing data".  We could even set up a mailing list server that spews
the stuff randomly for developers to test against.  We just have to
get all the off topic stuff released under a Creative Commons license
of some sort.

By the way, this is another form of recycling. :D


From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 16:05:35 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:05:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <156639.60526.qm@web38010.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Wow, what a reactionary bunch we are.  All I said was a quick quip and y'all are going into hyper-head-in-the-sand mode.  I'd comment on what that might tell us but all I wanted to do was make a quick silly comment.

> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
> Clinton

Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)

-Mike





_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 



From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Feb 29 18:37:57 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:37:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802291836270.2252@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-29, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)

Heh, it took you longer to type that message than to just hit the
delete key. *gg*

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 16:10:57 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:10:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com><47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <47C874E1.9010704@hotpop.com>

Michael ORourke wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>
> To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>>> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>>>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>>>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>>>  >
>>>
>>>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>>>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>>>  electricity.
>>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
>> Clinton
> 
> Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)
> 

Hahhaha -- now that was pretty funny.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 16:14:40 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:14:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <156639.60526.qm@web38010.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <156639.60526.qm@web38010.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C875C0.8030803@hotpop.com>

Scott Webster Wood wrote:
> Wow, what a reactionary bunch we are.  All I said was a quick quip and y'all are going into hyper-head-in-the-sand mode.  I'd comment on what that might tell us but all I wanted to do was make a quick silly comment.
> 

It's not nearly as bad as another list I'm on, which
will remain nameless until for at least as long as the
list admin has his head stuffed inside his posterior.

>> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
>> Clinton
> 
> Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)
> 
> -Mike




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 15:03:35 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:03:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <614296.73864.qm@web38011.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <614296.73864.qm@web38011.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C86517.7090909@hotpop.com>

Scott Webster Wood wrote:
> Sure it has to do with efficiency, but to say it has nothing
 > to do with political correctness is hogwash.

Maybe the formation of the "energy star" group...
to keep government off their backs...

But for me, energy COSTS are part of my decision-making process.
And any competently run business, too.

> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:22:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
> 
> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>> Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>  > logo.  PC pc's!
> 
> It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
> everything to do with the economics of paying for
> electricity.
> 
> 
> 
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 21:00:10 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:00:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802291836270.2252@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802291836270.2252@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47C8B8AA.3010302@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2008-02-29, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
> 
> Heh, it took you longer to type that message than to just hit the
> delete key. *gg*

or to just move on to the next message




From gib at juno.com  Fri Feb 29 21:57:28 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 02:57:28 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Fw: News For Entrepreneurs
Message-ID: <20080229.215728.19767.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com>


I thought some of you may be interested in this newsletter.

Please note: forwarded message attached


_____________________________________________________________
Click here to find travel and cruise franchise opportunities.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iihBsNKacEI2hejZAyhSmNW7Obc8tOs7RvP6ZYtiTvK91vmxm/

-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Michigan Technology News<brennan at mitechnews.com>
Subject: News For Entrepreneurs
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:44:54 -0500
Size: 22141
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080301/5781fdc9/attachment.mht>

From lamber45 at msu.edu  Fri Feb  1 06:59:04 2008
From: lamber45 at msu.edu (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 06:59:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
Message-ID: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>

I have a Compaq Armada laptop running Linux.  I've been using a PCMCIA Ethernet adapter:  "Network Everywhere Fast Ethernet 10/100", model NP100.  It's the kind that has a little dongle to connect to the Ethernet cable.  

The other day,  one of my sons pulled either the dongle or the card out while the computer was on,  and now it won't work.  I actually have two cards (exactly the same) and only one dongle, so I tried it with the other card; it still won't work.  In the past I've been able to connect and disconnect the dongle without causing trouble.  The cards show up in "pccardctl ls", and I have an "eth0" interface,  but the lights on the dongle don't come on and I can't ping any other host on the network I'm connected to.  

I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the PCMCIA slot is still OK, then I can get another card of the same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a wireless PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?

--
DLL


From lnovak1 at ford.com  Fri Feb  1 07:40:42 2008
From: lnovak1 at ford.com (Novak, Louis (L.M.))
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:40:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
References: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE945@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>


Go wireless and you'll never go back.

I have a couple of older Orinoco Gold cards that
are well supported.

Do you want one? 


-- 
Louis Novak  lnovak1 at ford.com   (313)248-6788 
Ford Motor Co., IT Learning & Organizational Development
Eco-Tip: Printing emails is usually a waste. 
Make this tip go viral, add it to your email signature.
Ask me about my Mercury Mariner Hybrid  



-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of David Lee Lambert
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 6:59 AM
To: MDLUG's main mailing list
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working

I have a Compaq Armada laptop running Linux.  I've been using a PCMCIA
Ethernet adapter:  "Network Everywhere Fast Ethernet 10/100", model
NP100.  It's the kind that has a little dongle to connect to the
Ethernet cable.  

The other day,  one of my sons pulled either the dongle or the card out
while the computer was on,  and now it won't work.  I actually have two
cards (exactly the same) and only one dongle, so I tried it with the
other card; it still won't work.  In the past I've been able to connect
and disconnect the dongle without causing trouble.  The cards show up in
"pccardctl ls", and I have an "eth0" interface,  but the lights on the
dongle don't come on and I can't ping any other host on the network I'm
connected to.  

I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the PCMCIA slot is
still OK, then I can get another card of the same model and hope the
dongle works,  or get a wireless PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If
the slot itself is burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.
Any advice?

--
DLL
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb  1 07:48:51 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 07:48:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
References: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <47A31533.7070106@ameritech.net>

David Lee Lambert wrote:

> The other day,  one of my sons pulled either the dongle or the card out while 
> the computer was on,  and now it won't work.  I actually have two cards 
> (exactly the same) and only one dongle, so I tried it with the other card; it
> still won't work.  In the past I've been able to connect and disconnect the
> dongle without causing trouble.  The cards show up in "pccardctl ls", and I
> have an "eth0" interface,  but the lights on the dongle don't come on and I
> can't ping any other host on the network I'm connected to.  

> I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the PCMCIA slot is still OK,
> then I can get another card of the same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a
> wireless PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is burned out or
> something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?
> 
> --
> DLL

Take a flashlight and look in the slot for any bent or broken pins.
Can you locate another laptop with a cardbus slot to try the cards in?
Do you have any other cards to try in the slot?
I would suspect the slot or the dongle, it seems unlikely that both
cards were damaged.




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  1 09:00:48 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:00:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

I had some trouble a couple days ago encoding a DVD for my Palm Pilot. The machine
locked up hard (so hard the reset button didn't work, and I had to cut the power from
the power supply) a couple of times.

 The next night, it worked for one chapter, then I set it to work on another chapter
and went to bed. The next morning, the screen was totally locked and I had to ssh in
over Bluetooth from my Palm and shutdown the machine from there. Then, it failed to
boot up again, locking up after the drives were identified.

 I think I now know why it didn't work. Last night when I tried to boot it, I noticed
that the BIOS was reporting only 1 CPU, though there are two there - Athlon MPs. I have
to presume one of the CPUs failed, and I'll have to yank it and hope the other CPU is
operational and I can boot the machine.

 Prices for the 2GHz Athlon MPs are over a hundred bucks. I rather doubt I'll be picking
one up any time soon.

 Oy.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317

 "There is a fine line between being on to something and on something."
                          -Friar Broccoli
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 09:13:10 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:13:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>

Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
the MS purchase.

Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
but with the current Bush administration, who knows?

~~ Mikey


From wolfger at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 09:33:10 2008
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:33:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>

That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.

On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
> the MS purchase.
>
> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
>
> ~~ Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  1 09:33:27 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:33:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <004601c864c9$d7f4ae00$060fa8c0@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: David Lee Lambert
 
> I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the 
> PCMCIA slot is still OK, then I can get another card of the 
> same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a wireless 
> PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is 
> burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?

 It sounds very like the dongle has a problem. I had a PCMCIA ethernet card
with similar issues, though the dongle would generally work if it were held
in a particular position.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                    (313) 227-2317

 "The opponents of disarming Saddam have sneered even at the possibility of
     a link between al Qaeda and Iraq, but that is not the kind of linkage
    either side would advertise. There is plenty of evidence that Iraq has
  harbored al Qaeda members..." - Wall Street Journal editorial, 2003/03/18

 "Any links between Al Qaeda and Iraq is a separate issue that was barely
 mentioned in the run-up to war." - Wall Street Journal editorial, 2007/02/12
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Feb  1 13:29:48 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:29:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>

Just when I was starting to warm up to Python:

http://www.itnews.com.au/News/69326,breaking-the-python-code.aspx

Michael


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb  1 13:34:57 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:34:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20080201183352.EF354C0B1@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Ingles, Raymond
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:01 AM
> To: Mdlug (E-mail)
> Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
> 
> I had some trouble a couple days ago encoding a DVD for my 
> Palm Pilot. The machine locked up hard (so hard the reset 
> button didn't work, and I had to cut the power from the power 
> supply) a couple of times.
> 
>  The next night, it worked for one chapter, then I set it to 
> work on another chapter and went to bed. The next morning, 
> the screen was totally locked and I had to ssh in over 
> Bluetooth from my Palm and shutdown the machine from there. 
> Then, it failed to boot up again, locking up after the drives 
> were identified.
> 
>  I think I now know why it didn't work. Last night when I 
> tried to boot it, I noticed that the BIOS was reporting only 
> 1 CPU, though there are two there - Athlon MPs. I have to 
> presume one of the CPUs failed, and I'll have to yank it and 
> hope the other CPU is operational and I can boot the machine.
> 
>  Prices for the 2GHz Athlon MPs are over a hundred bucks. I 
> rather doubt I'll be picking one up any time soon.
> 
>  Oy.
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                                              
> (313) 227-2317
> 

	Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.

	-Rob



From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Feb  1 13:41:00 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:41:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011340260.2303@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-01, Monsieur Wolfger a ecrit:
> That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.

Until Microsoft buys them out. ;)

Michael


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  1 13:42:18 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:42:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <20080201183352.EF354C0B1@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543D@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.

 I replaced the power supply last year. I'm doubtful it's the power supply at
this point.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 15:59:56 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:59:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>
	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>

At 10:24 PM 1/31/08, Robert Meier wrote:

>The underlying hardware, if access is supported,
>should be available via ioctl(2).
>Start by looking at tty_ioctl(4), including TIOCM_CD.
>It is probable you will have to load some additional
>CONFIG_SERIAL_8250 kernel modules.
>It is possible you will have to recompile your kernel,
>as IIRC tty_ioctl support is no longer standard.
>
>To interpret much of the above man pages you will need to download and
>understand the spec sheet for the 8251 Universal Asynchronous Receiver
>Transmitter that is the canonical hardware implementation of RS-232.

     I'm looking at the man page for tty_ioctl(4), from which it 
looks like I need
to write a C program or something which can #include and call the function,
executing "ioctl(fd, TIOCMGET, &modeminfo);" then "modeminfo &= TIOCM_CAR;"

     Most of the info that I need (eg, values for TIOCMGET and TIOCM_CAR)
should be in the header files, and I could theoretically write the 
program without
ever knowing what these constants are.

     Finding a value for fd (the serial port handle) is a bit more 
problematic: For
all TRUE returns, it is anticipated (in fact part of the definition 
of a valid TRUE
return) that the serial port will be in use, grabbed by VMware. I found that
PalmOS allows multiple programs to open the (same) serial port; but 
I'm not sure
about whether Linux does.


> >> * If there is no actual modem, but just a straight serial connection
> >>    using pins 2, 3, and ground, can reading Carrier Detect in that
> >>    manner be relied upon to return an OFF status?
>
>No.

     Then I need to find some other way to determine whether the serial
port is connected *and* refrain from using it from VMs for any serial work
(eg, Palm apps)...



>If your goal is security,
>then you might consider wiring the carrier detect line to a parallel
>port pin to monitor it.


     I might look into the parallel pin method a bit more anyway, but my goal
doesn't have anything to do with security.

     What I'm after is something that will automatically keep count of how many
minutes I've been connected to Netzero dialup during the month, without my
having to remember to do anything special before starting it up. I only get 10
hours a month, and they don't seem willing to provide a way to determine how
much time is left.

     I always do this from a Windows 98 virtual machine, as this makes it easy
to reset the system to a known good state every few uses; and I have minicom
on the host for direct dialing. So I figured that actual modem 
traffic (as opposed
to serial I/O without a modem) && the serial port in use by a virtual machine
would be a good indicator of whether to increment the minutes-in-the-month
counter (to be kept in/written to a file somewhere).

     A second serial port would get around some of the problems; I could then
dedicate /dev/ttyS0 to the modem and use the other port(s) for Palm and other
serial work, instead of unplugging and replugging cables all the time. However,
the only serial boards I have (or even heard of) are ISA, and I only have PCI
slots (and only three of those). There is provision for a second serial port on
the motherboard, but as a Winmodem, and I think there is physical interference
with use of one of the PCI slots.

     Any suggestions or ideas?

----

   - Drew.



From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb  1 14:09:56 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 14:09:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543D@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20080201190852.60B75C0B1@impelind.com>


> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > 	Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.
> 
>  I replaced the power supply last year. I'm doubtful it's the 
> power supply at this point.
> 

	Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...

	Besides, would you rather pay a restocking fee* on a $30+ item or a
$100+ item?

	-Rob




* Obviously assuming that where you go has a restocking fee.



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  1 15:27:23 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:27:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <20080201190852.60B75C0B1@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165440@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...

 Well, first I'm going to see if the machine will run with one CPU, and if
so, which one.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "A mother raising children is not considered 'a worker.' She
     is treated as if she has no input or productivity to
        contribute to the 'real economy'." - R.D. Green
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From gib at juno.com  Fri Feb  1 15:33:48 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:33:48 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
Message-ID: <20080201.153348.512.2@webmail08.vgs.untd.com>

 
Try Discount Computer - Telegraph just south of Plymouth Road. I've had good restocking experience with them.
http://discomp.com/


-- "Robert Adkins" <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:


> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.
> 
>  I replaced the power supply last year. I'm doubtful it's the 
> power supply at this point.
> 

Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...

Besides, would you rather pay a restocking fee* on a $30+ item or a
$100+ item?

-Rob




* Obviously assuming that where you go has a restocking fee.

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Find the perfect technology franchise.  Click here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iihB0RsgLFktTpu5p47OmW35eDRjY0dpUAbbGR5q1wP0IKqDC/


From admin at linuxtechdaily.com  Fri Feb  1 11:02:38 2008
From: admin at linuxtechdaily.com (Rich Hughes)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:02:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Level 3 Systems Administrator Position
Message-ID: <47A3429E.5070504@linuxtechdaily.com>

Hi,

Thought I would pass this along. Fused Network is looking for a systems 
administrator, telecommute position 10-40 hours per week. I use them for 
hosting and can't speak highly enough of them.

Here is the link:
http://www.fusednetwork.com/careers.php

Thanks,
Rich H


From Stan at mcomputersolutions.com  Fri Feb  1 18:50:20 2008
From: Stan at mcomputersolutions.com (Stan Green)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:50:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <200802011850.20611.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>

I know this will sound stupid, but have you cleaned the heat sink on the 
CPU's? DVD encoding is very CPU intense and can cause the CPU to get very 
hot. If not cooled, it can overheat and lock up the system. I have had this 
happen  on two different PC.  Now I clean them about once every 6 months.

HTH,
Stan Green
On Friday 01 February 2008 09:00, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> I had some trouble a couple days ago encoding a DVD for my Palm Pilot. The
> machine locked up hard (so hard the reset button didn't work, and I had to
> cut the power from the power supply) a couple of times.
>
>  The next night, it worked for one chapter, then I set it to work on
> another chapter and went to bed. The next morning, the screen was totally
> locked and I had to ssh in over Bluetooth from my Palm and shutdown the
> machine from there. Then, it failed to boot up again, locking up after the
> drives were identified.
>
>  I think I now know why it didn't work. Last night when I tried to boot it,
> I noticed that the BIOS was reporting only 1 CPU, though there are two
> there - Athlon MPs. I have to presume one of the CPUs failed, and I'll have
> to yank it and hope the other CPU is operational and I can boot the
> machine.
>
>  Prices for the 2GHz Athlon MPs are over a hundred bucks. I rather doubt
> I'll be picking one up any time soon.
>
>  Oy.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317
>
>  "There is a fine line between being on to something and on something."
>                           -Friar Broccoli
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or
> disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us
> immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Fri Feb  1 22:18:32 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:18:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:29:48 -0500 (EST)
Michael Corral wrote:

> Just when I was starting to warm up to Python:
> 
> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/69326,breaking-the-python-code.aspx
> 
> Michael

I'm awaiting details before judging.  I like Python a lot, though there
are details I dislike.  Python 3 _might_ be a really good thing.

David


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 23:44:36 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:44:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory tree to
	lower case
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>

I was trying to get an old application to work under Wine.  As you all
know, file and directory names are case sensitive in Linux but not in
Windows.  Wine hides the differences from the Windows applications.
When an executable update is applied to a Windows app that is designed
to overwrite existing files, Wine treats them as case insensitive so
the correct ones get clobbered.  But in the case of the app I was
working with, the update is a zip file that needs to be extracted over
the existing app tree in order to replace some of the files in various
subdirectories.  Just to make it fun, the file names in the zip had
different case than the target tree.  Not just all upper or lower case
either - lots of random CamelCase also.  Since Wine hides the case
from the app renaming everything to lower case doesn't affect it so I
went looking for a shell script, command, or graphical utility to do
that.  I found lots of script examples and apps but none of them
worked.  The problem is that none of them can handle renaming
directories recursively, especially more than one level deep.  The
"find" command can exec another command like "rename" but it parses
the full tree first then runs the app which then fails as soon as it
tries to access a subdirectory of a directory it just renamed.  I
threw together this hideous script that exhaustively parses the tree
but does anyone have a better method?  My script handles hidden file
names with spaces and other nonsense and I attached a tar.gz of the
tree I was testing against.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: renlctree.sh
Type: application/x-sh
Size: 1070 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080201/60d1c40b/attachment-0001.sh>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: test_tree.tar.gz
Type: application/x-gzip
Size: 531 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080201/60d1c40b/attachment-0001.gz>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 23:47:10 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:47:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802012047u54392c89g4afe9fb0958b56b6@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 1, 2008 10:18 PM, David Relson <relson at osagesoftware.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:29:48 -0500 (EST)
> Michael Corral wrote:
>
> > Just when I was starting to warm up to Python:
> >
> > http://www.itnews.com.au/News/69326,breaking-the-python-code.aspx
> >
> > Michael
>
> I'm awaiting details before judging.  I like Python a lot, though there
> are details I dislike.  Python 3 _might_ be a really good thing.

GCC has broke source compatibility in the past so I hesitate to hold
them to a higher standard.


From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb  2 03:44:58 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 03:44:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <20080201190852.60B75C0B1@impelind.com>
References: <20080201190852.60B75C0B1@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47A42D8A.7070804@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...
>
> 	Besides, would you rather pay a restocking fee* on a $30+ item or a
> $100+ item?
>   

And a power supply tester is a good thing to have.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Sat Feb  2 08:19:50 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 08:19:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <47A42D8A.7070804@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080202131842.21464C0B1@impelind.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 3:45 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > Power supplies don't always remain 100% operational forever...
> >
> > 	Besides, would you rather pay a restocking fee* on a 
> $30+ item or a 
> > $100+ item?
> >   
> 
> And a power supply tester is a good thing to have.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 

	Couldn't agree more.

	-Rob



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb  1 18:50:51 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:50:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A3B05B.4020008@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
> At 10:24 PM 1/31/08, Robert Meier wrote:
> 
>> The underlying hardware, if access is supported,
>> should be available via ioctl(2).
>> Start by looking at tty_ioctl(4), including TIOCM_CD.
>> It is probable you will have to load some additional
>> CONFIG_SERIAL_8250 kernel modules.
>> It is possible you will have to recompile your kernel,
>> as IIRC tty_ioctl support is no longer standard.
>>
>> To interpret much of the above man pages you will need to download and
>> understand the spec sheet for the 8251 Universal Asynchronous Receiver
>> Transmitter that is the canonical hardware implementation of RS-232.
> 
>      I'm looking at the man page for tty_ioctl(4), from which it 
> looks like I need
> to write a C program or something which can #include and call the function,
> executing "ioctl(fd, TIOCMGET, &modeminfo);" then "modeminfo &= TIOCM_CAR;"
> 
>      Most of the info that I need (eg, values for TIOCMGET and TIOCM_CAR)
> should be in the header files, and I could theoretically write the 
> program without
> ever knowing what these constants are.
> 
>      Finding a value for fd (the serial port handle) is a bit more 
> problematic: For
> all TRUE returns, it is anticipated (in fact part of the definition 
> of a valid TRUE
> return) that the serial port will be in use, grabbed by VMware. I found that
> PalmOS allows multiple programs to open the (same) serial port; but 
> I'm not sure
> about whether Linux does.
> 
> 
>>>> * If there is no actual modem, but just a straight serial connection
>>>>    using pins 2, 3, and ground, can reading Carrier Detect in that
>>>>    manner be relied upon to return an OFF status?
>> No.
> 
>      Then I need to find some other way to determine whether the serial
> port is connected *and* refrain from using it from VMs for any serial work
> (eg, Palm apps)...
> 
> 
> 
>> If your goal is security,
>> then you might consider wiring the carrier detect line to a parallel
>> port pin to monitor it.
> 
> 
>      I might look into the parallel pin method a bit more anyway, but my goal
> doesn't have anything to do with security.
> 
>      What I'm after is something that will automatically keep count of how many
> minutes I've been connected to Netzero dialup during the month, without my
> having to remember to do anything special before starting it up. I only get 10
> hours a month, and they don't seem willing to provide a way to determine how
> much time is left.

YOu can get DSL for like $13 a month now through Verizon/AOL.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb  1 20:45:04 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 20:45:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>

Wolfger wrote:
> That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.
>

I've been putting off moving my "email of last resort" from
yahoo to gmail.  This sealed it... and in fact, gmail has
improved its service so much (not just webmail, but both
POP and IMAP service, too!) that gmail is probably going to
be my ONLY email service.

Now I'm just fighting with the configuration -- I've got
IMAP working properly, but for some reason, I can't
mail out through the SMTP yet.


> On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
>> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
>> the MS purchase.
>>
>> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
>> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
>> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
>>
>> ~~ Mikey




From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sat Feb  2 12:18:22 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 12:18:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543D@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543D@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802021217390.4385@rich.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008, Ingles, Raymond wrote:

>> From: Robert Adkins
>
>> 	Pop in a different power supply before you "give up" on the CPU.
>
> I replaced the power supply last year. I'm doubtful it's the power supply at
> this point.

I agree with Rob. I'm not so sure, either. I've seen P/S that would fail 
in 3 hours after purchase.


From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Feb  2 13:22:28 2008
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 13:22:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com>

On Friday 01 February 2008 09:33, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> > From: David Lee Lambert
> >
> > I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the
> > PCMCIA slot is still OK, then I can get another card of the
> > same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a wireless
> > PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is
> > burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?
>
>  It sounds very like the dongle has a problem. I had a PCMCIA ethernet card
> with similar issues, though the dongle would generally work if it were held
> in a particular position.

My wife looked carefully at the dongle's plug (the one that plugs into the 
card) and noticed that the plastic had cracked on one side.  The place where 
I originally bought the card is still selling them for $9.99 each, so I 
ordered a replacement.  I'm using a USB Ethernet adapter until that arrives. 

Thanks to all for the advice.

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb  2 14:13:22 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 14:13:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <47A4C0D2.2020602@hotpop.com>

David Lee Lambert wrote:
> On Friday 01 February 2008 09:33, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>>> From: David Lee Lambert
>>>
>>> I'm trying to decide what's broken;  if I'm sure that the
>>> PCMCIA slot is still OK, then I can get another card of the
>>> same model and hope the dongle works,  or get a wireless
>>> PCMCIA card and wireless router.  If the slot itself is
>>> burned out or something,  I could get a USB adapter.  Any advice?
>>  It sounds very like the dongle has a problem. I had a PCMCIA ethernet card
>> with similar issues, though the dongle would generally work if it were held
>> in a particular position.
> 
> My wife looked carefully at the dongle's plug (the one that plugs into the 
> card) and noticed that the plastic had cracked on one side.  The place where 
> I originally bought the card is still selling them for $9.99 each, so I 
> ordered a replacement.  I'm using a USB Ethernet adapter until that arrives. 
> 
> Thanks to all for the advice.
> 

I would just stick with the USB adapter.
1: You probably have more USB connectors than PCMCIA slots.

2: You can plug a USB hub into a USB connector, giving you
    even more USB connectors.

3: If one of your PCMCIA slots gets damaged, you're down
to only one.

So basically, use the PCMCIA slots ONLY when you have
a job that can't be solved with a USB device.




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  2 19:06:38 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:06:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802021606k314dd337vc3956bde1e2ae5c8@mail.gmail.com>

I use Yahoo and CNN for news but their coverage overlaps a lot so
dropping the former won't matter much.  I used to go through
Netscape.com before it changed to a Propeller portal
(www.propeller.com) which is similar to Slashdot.  Now I see it's just
a rebranded AOL portal.  Fark is more entertaining anyways.


From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Feb  2 21:50:21 2008
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 21:50:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <47A4C0D2.2020602@hotpop.com>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com> <47A4C0D2.2020602@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802022150.22858.davidl@lmert.com>

On Saturday 02 February 2008 14:13, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> David Lee Lambert wrote:
> > On Friday 01 February 2008 09:33, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> >>> From: David Lee Lambert
> >>>
> > [...]  I'm using a USB Ethernet adapter until
> > that arrives.
>
> I would just stick with the USB adapter.
> 1: You probably have more USB connectors than PCMCIA slots.

Only one USB port on this laptop,  but two PCMCIA slots.

> 2: You can plug a USB hub into a USB connector, giving you
>     even more USB connectors.

I tried that here.  I have a small USB 1.1 hub, but the adapter stopped 
working (dropping about 80% of TCP/IP packets) when I plugged it and a flash 
drive into the hub at the same time.  I don't know whether it was a power 
issue or a bandwidth issue.

> 3: If one of your PCMCIA slots gets damaged, you're down
> to only one.
>
> So basically, use the PCMCIA slots ONLY when you have
> a job that can't be solved with a USB device.

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From otakurider at gmail.com  Sat Feb  2 22:24:29 2008
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 22:24:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <cd5131a50802021924oe725a7er66e19b7cea6adc8d@mail.gmail.com>

Still may be a chance that Google or even Apple may buy it - yahoo not
really a search engine like google its more of a portal so the conflict is
not the same.  And if Apple buys it that will grind Ballmers butt I bet.
Microsquish buying could see a lot of top people leaving or at least a
really bad proxy fight with the board.  the stock is near the bid price
currently so it my pop a bit in a few days to make it not worth doing.

One can only hope


Pat
VP MDLUG


On Feb 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:

> Wolfger wrote:
> > That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.
> >
>
> I've been putting off moving my "email of last resort" from
> yahoo to gmail.  This sealed it... and in fact, gmail has
> improved its service so much (not just webmail, but both
> POP and IMAP service, too!) that gmail is probably going to
> be my ONLY email service.
>
> Now I'm just fighting with the configuration -- I've got
> IMAP working properly, but for some reason, I can't
> mail out through the SMTP yet.
>
>
> > On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
> >> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
> >> the MS purchase.
> >>
> >> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
> >> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
> >> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
> >>
> >> ~~ Mikey
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Sun Feb  3 13:34:54 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 13:34:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>

Drew wrote:

>      What I'm after is something that will automatically keep count of how many
> minutes I've been connected to Netzero dialup during the month, without my
> having to remember to do anything special before starting it up. I only get 10
> hours a month, and they don't seem willing to provide a way to determine how
> much time is left.
> 
	Well, now that you've defined the problem domain, this might easier to 
solve than you might think.

	Take a look at the pppd manpage, and the "SCRIPTS" section.

	There's a environment variable called "CONNECT_TIME", which, per the 
manpage is defined as:

"The number of seconds from when the PPP negotiation started until the 
connection was terminated."

This variable gets set when the connection is terminated and PPP runs 
one of its standard scripts.  You could probably call something from the 
/etc/ppp/ip-down or auth-down scripts when the ppp link goes down to 
read that variable (or pass it as a parameter) to do the link time 
accounting that you're trying to do based on that number of seconds.

	While the serial port method would probably be workable in the end, 
having pppd log things after disconnect may be the least painful way to 
do what you're trying to do.


-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Sun Feb  3 15:19:17 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:19:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: laptop power problems
Message-ID: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>

Hi All,

I know this is off topic but ...

My son is a sophomore at the U.M. School of Engineering and his laptop
has a problem.  The laptop is a Dell Inspiron E1505 that's 18 months
old.

The laptop works fine off of the battery.  Plugged in (but without the
battery) it doesn't run. He's tested with a friend's power brick and
the symptoms are the same. We suspect a problem with the power jack
(port) in the laptop.

Does anybody have experience with such problems?  What do you recommend?
Obviously one solution is ship it back to Dell for repairs.  I presume
that's slower than one would wish.  Are there any reasonable
homebrew solutions?  Do any of the local (Ann Arbor) computer stores
do such repairs?

Thanks.

David

P.S. Please "Reply All" as he's not on the mailing list.



From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 17:43:12 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:43:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>
	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>

At 01:34 PM 2/3/08, Joseph C. Bender wrote:


>         Well, now that you've defined the problem domain, this 
> might easier to
>solve than you might think.
>
>         Take a look at the pppd manpage, and the "SCRIPTS" section.
>
>         There's a environment variable called "CONNECT_TIME", which, per the
>manpage is defined as:
>
>"The number of seconds from when the PPP negotiation started until the
>connection was terminated."

     Problem is, the ppp is being handled in the Windows virtual 
machine, and thus is
not likely to be visible to the Linux host. All the host is likely to 
know is that the serial
port is being used by VMware, and maybe if I'm lucky whether or not 
the modem is
talking over the phone. (There had for a while been no version of NZ 
for Linux; and I
think one might still be lacking.)

     Now this doesn't mean I can't use the idea. But I will have to 
successfully install the
software to run via Wine, and get a handle on keeping a tarball of 
the known good state
around to restore periodically, and also denying access to the rest 
of the system to
all the netzero stuff...Maybe NZ via Wine in a Kanotix VM?

     I'd still like to see what can be done with simple serial port 
monitoring first.

----

   - Drew.



From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 17:43:12 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:43:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>
	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>
	<47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>

At 01:34 PM 2/3/08, Joseph C. Bender wrote:


>         Well, now that you've defined the problem domain, this 
> might easier to
>solve than you might think.
>
>         Take a look at the pppd manpage, and the "SCRIPTS" section.
>
>         There's a environment variable called "CONNECT_TIME", which, per the
>manpage is defined as:
>
>"The number of seconds from when the PPP negotiation started until the
>connection was terminated."

     Problem is, the ppp is being handled in the Windows virtual 
machine, and thus is
not likely to be visible to the Linux host. All the host is likely to 
know is that the serial
port is being used by VMware, and maybe if I'm lucky whether or not 
the modem is
talking over the phone. (There had for a while been no version of NZ 
for Linux; and I
think one might still be lacking.)

     Now this doesn't mean I can't use the idea. But I will have to 
successfully install the
software to run via Wine, and get a handle on keeping a tarball of 
the known good state
around to restore periodically, and also denying access to the rest 
of the system to
all the netzero stuff...Maybe NZ via Wine in a Kanotix VM?

     I'd still like to see what can be done with simple serial port 
monitoring first.

----

   - Drew.



From rstaff at sprynet.com  Sun Feb  3 16:14:15 2008
From: rstaff at sprynet.com (Richard Staff)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 16:14:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>

Hey, I didn't know that Python was a Microsoft product!   ;-)
Will there be conversion tools or at least analysis tools that can 
identify where changes must be made to 2.x code?
Peace, Rick
================[]
David Relson wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:29:48 -0500 (EST)
> Michael Corral wrote:
>
>   
>> Just when I was starting to warm up to Python:
>>
>> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/69326,breaking-the-python-code.aspx
>>
>> Michael
>>     
>
> I'm awaiting details before judging.  I like Python a lot, though there
> are details I dislike.  Python 3 _might_ be a really good thing.
>
> David
>
>   


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 20:01:46 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:01:46 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 3, 2008 1:14 PM, Richard Staff <rstaff at sprynet.com> wrote:
> Hey, I didn't know that Python was a Microsoft product!   ;-)
> Will there be conversion tools or at least analysis tools that can
> identify where changes must be made to 2.x code?

Google is leading the charge on Python 3000, so we'd have to assume
that they will make it easy to transition.  They have the resources
:-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Sun Feb  3 20:27:32 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:27:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080203202732.21eabb1a@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:01:46 -0800
Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:

> On Feb 3, 2008 1:14 PM, Richard Staff <rstaff at sprynet.com> wrote:
> > Hey, I didn't know that Python was a Microsoft product!   ;-)
> > Will there be conversion tools or at least analysis tools that can
> > identify where changes must be made to 2.x code?
> 
> Google is leading the charge on Python 3000, so we'd have to assume
> that they will make it easy to transition.  They have the resources
> :-)
> -- 
> Kristian Erik Hermansen
> "Know something about everything and everything about something."

Kristian,

Have you any links indicating planned changes going into Python 3 ???

Given a while I'm sure I could come up with more than a few things that
annoy me in the current Python.  It'd be interesting to see if the
plans address any of my thoughts.

David


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 20:33:04 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:33:04 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <20080203202732.21eabb1a@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080203202732.21eabb1a@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802031733q58effa23h532dbd55f6c5a35d@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 3, 2008 5:27 PM, David Relson <relson at osagesoftware.com> wrote:
> Have you any links indicating planned changes going into Python 3 ???
>
> Given a while I'm sure I could come up with more than a few things that
> annoy me in the current Python.  It'd be interesting to see if the
> plans address any of my thoughts.

A friend sent along some info to me, so I don't have links.  But, from
what I know, print will not be a statement.  print() is now a function
-- which will probably break a lot of code :-)  There are lots of
other changes in unicode to support it properly.  There are many
architectural changes that will probably break old code too.  And
perhaps we will see better threading/multiprocessing support...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Sun Feb  3 22:20:44 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:20:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802031733q58effa23h532dbd55f6c5a35d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080203202732.21eabb1a@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<fe37588d0802031733q58effa23h532dbd55f6c5a35d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080203222044.5ad1c4b1@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:33:04 -0800
Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:

> On Feb 3, 2008 5:27 PM, David Relson <relson at osagesoftware.com> wrote:
> > Have you any links indicating planned changes going into Python
> > 3 ???
> >
> > Given a while I'm sure I could come up with more than a few things
> > that annoy me in the current Python.  It'd be interesting to see if
> > the plans address any of my thoughts.
> 
> A friend sent along some info to me, so I don't have links.  But, from
> what I know, print will not be a statement.  print() is now a function
> -- which will probably break a lot of code :-)  There are lots of
> other changes in unicode to support it properly.  There are many
> architectural changes that will probably break old code too.  And
> perhaps we will see better threading/multiprocessing support...
> -- 
> Kristian Erik Hermansen
> "Know something about everything and everything about something."

I did a quick search for "Python 3000".  Indeed, print changes from a
statement to a function.  Also of interest, sort() changes from
"in-place" to returning an object.

For example, instead of

   keys = dictionary.keys()
   keys.sort( )
   for key in keys:

Python will allow

   for key in dictionary.keys().sort():

(or something like that).

David


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Sun Feb  3 22:33:57 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:33:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A687A5.6050806@bendorius.com>

Drew wrote:

>      Problem is, the ppp is being handled in the Windows virtual 
> machine, and thus is
> not likely to be visible to the Linux host. All the host is likely to 
> know is that the serial
> port is being used by VMware, and maybe if I'm lucky whether or not 
> the modem is
> talking over the phone. (There had for a while been no version of NZ 
> for Linux; and I
> think one might still be lacking.)
>
	Oh!  I got it backwards.  My mistake.

>      I'd still like to see what can be done with simple serial port 
> monitoring first.
> 
	I'm still wondering if there's a way to query VMWare as to when the 
serial port is open or closed.  The fact that VMware is involved may 
cause issues with making stty calls at it.  YOu might want to see if 
there's anything in the VMWare API to see if you can query the status of 
the virtual serial port that way.

	I take it that the Netzero Linux client won't do you any good?  I 
thought they had one?


-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Sun Feb  3 22:36:01 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:36:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>

Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> Google is leading the charge on Python 3000, so we'd have to assume
> that they will make it easy to transition.  They have the resources
> :-)

	The cynic in me assumes that Google will be making it easy for Google 
to transition to Python 3.  They, if you think about it, have no reason 
to make it easy for anyone else to do so.

	Why everyone assumes Google are the good guys is beyond me.  I'm 
waiting for the day where Microsoft gets the prestige and goodwill that 
IBM does, because Google is the New Evil Company.



-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 23:03:02 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:03:02 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802032003t56e44711v4876883f9562b04e@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 3, 2008 7:36 PM, Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com> wrote:
>         The cynic in me assumes that Google will be making it easy for Google
> to transition to Python 3.  They, if you think about it, have no reason
> to make it easy for anyone else to do so.
>
>         Why everyone assumes Google are the good guys is beyond me.  I'm
> waiting for the day where Microsoft gets the prestige and goodwill that
> IBM does, because Google is the New Evil Company.

Google has given me a number of free services which have greatly
simplified the way I live my life.  If that is a crime, then so be it.
 I assume that they use my data.  The fact is, I attempt not to put
any data that I really care about in any form on Google services.
Most of my data, however, is not sensitive.  Sure, they can infer a
lot about me based on some habits of mine and who I communicate with,
but I make ti difficult for them to track me.  I utilize a lot of
software that prevents them from data mining me as an individual...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From tcameron at redhat.com  Mon Feb  4 01:18:28 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:18:28 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Red Hat is Hiring
Message-ID: <47A6AE34.9010604@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Howdy All -

My name is Thomas Cameron, and I am the solutions architect (a.k.a.
sales engineer) team lead for the central region of the United States.
I am not a recruiter, I'm a technical employee at Red Hat based out of
Austin, Texas.

We're looking for sales engineers, consultants and technical trainers in
the Detroit area.

Please be aware that all three of these positions requires *extensive*
travel.  We do our best to get our people home for the weekends, but in
many cases you can expect to travel 75% or more.  Sales engineers spend
3-5 days/week on the road.  Trainers spend 5 days/week on the road with
a target of one week off per month for professional development and
curriculum development.  Consultants are on the road 5 days/week with
pretty sporadic weeks off, just depending on what sorts of projects we
have in the pipeline.

If you're interested and have a strong background in enterprise
computing with Linux (RHCE *heavily* preferred), please do two things:

1) Fill out the form at
https://redhat.ats.hrsmart.com/cgi-bin/a/editprofile.cgi and list my
e-mail address (tcameron at redhat.com) as an employee referral in the "How
did you hear about us?" section.

2) Send me an e-mail with your interest (sales engineer, consultant of
trainer) and your resume.

Please feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who might be
qualified and interested.
- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office 512-585-5631 cell 512-857-1345 fax
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHpq40mzle50YHwaARAi0uAJ4xWPNmyb9xFZQwgPLyl8nKv4DF+gCfUkIG
fdQWOlEBZ86oOBNAUQpd7u4=
=6sVq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From wolfger at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 05:21:55 2008
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 05:21:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Python 3.0 to be backwards incompatible
In-Reply-To: <47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802011328070.2270@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20080201221832.31c6e3f6@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A62EA7.7060301@sprynet.com>
	<fe37588d0802031701k2290b38cgf072d90d4b00b027@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A68821.1060600@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330802040221x7c18f044mb3b2d7987d1d802@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 3, 2008 10:36 PM, Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com> wrote:

>         Why everyone assumes Google are the good guys is beyond me.  I'm
> waiting for the day where Microsoft gets the prestige and goodwill that
> IBM does, because Google is the New Evil Company.

If Google is "the New Evil", then sign me up and give me a black hat.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Feb  4 08:45:08 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 08:45:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Entire computer stopped working
In-Reply-To: <200802011850.20611.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165444@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Stan Green

> I know this will sound stupid, but have you cleaned the heat sink on the 
> CPU's? DVD encoding is very CPU intense and can cause the CPU to get very 
> hot. If not cooled, it can overheat and lock up the system.

 Yup, that's what I think happened. However, I *also* think permanent damage
has been done, since even after having been left off overnight, the machine
will no longer boot, and as I said, the BIOS reports only one CPU. I'm pretty
sure at least one of the CPUs in the machine is fried, and possibly both.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                (313) 227-2317

 "Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it
 will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation [of power] first, and
     then corruption, its necessary consequence." - Thomas Jefferson
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Feb  4 10:57:34 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 10:57:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory
	tree tolower case
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165446@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jeff Hanson

> The "find" command can exec another command like "rename" but it parses
> the full tree first then runs the app which then fails as soon as it
> tries to access a subdirectory of a directory it just renamed.

 I think you can used the "-depth" argument to force it to handle the
directory entries first, then the directories. This would allow you to
rename the files, then the enclosing directory, then the next highest
directory, and so forth...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "Improvements succeeded each other so rapidly, that machines
 which had never been finished were abandoned in the hands of
 their makers, because new improvements had superceded their
             utility." - Charles Babbage, 1832
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 13:18:13 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:18:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory
	tree tolower case
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165446@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165446@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802041018h7d34354avd2cde2d659ce771e@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 4, 2008 10:57 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  I think you can used the "-depth" argument to force it to handle the
> directory entries first, then the directories. This would allow you to
> rename the files, then the enclosing directory, then the next highest
> directory, and so forth...

Thanks.  That worked much better.  I must have overlooked the option
in the man page.  The simplified solution which covers both file and
directory names is:
find <dir> -depth -execdir rename 'y/A-Z/a-z/' {} \;


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 14:03:09 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:03:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <cd5131a50802021924oe725a7er66e19b7cea6adc8d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330802010633g3444e73dlab7f2b0c3aee14e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A3CB20.6020801@hotpop.com>
	<cd5131a50802021924oe725a7er66e19b7cea6adc8d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802041103t52a0f901o52d17655edb50e1a@mail.gmail.com>

Here is a link to how to configure the google IMAP services:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/internet/setting-up-gmail-imap-support-in-thunderbird-2x/It's
pretty straight forward but the ports are a little non-traditional.
The
folders are a little strange.

I don't think M$ will ruin too much of the traditional Yahoo structure that
has been struggling the last few years. What I am nervous about is the
support that Yahoo has recently dedicated to improving the Web. YUI and the
developer video center have been invaluable tools to me. MS obviously has no
intention of improving the Web....

On Feb 2, 2008 10:24 PM, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:

> Still may be a chance that Google or even Apple may buy it - yahoo not
> really a search engine like google its more of a portal so the conflict is
> not the same.  And if Apple buys it that will grind Ballmers butt I bet.
> Microsquish buying could see a lot of top people leaving or at least a
> really bad proxy fight with the board.  the stock is near the bid price
> currently so it my pop a bit in a few days to make it not worth doing.
>
> One can only hope
>
>
> Pat
> VP MDLUG
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>
> > Wolfger wrote:
> > > That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.
> > >
> >
> > I've been putting off moving my "email of last resort" from
> > yahoo to gmail.  This sealed it... and in fact, gmail has
> > improved its service so much (not just webmail, but both
> > POP and IMAP service, too!) that gmail is probably going to
> > be my ONLY email service.
> >
> > Now I'm just fighting with the configuration -- I've got
> > IMAP working properly, but for some reason, I can't
> > mail out through the SMTP yet.
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
> > >> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
> > >> the MS purchase.
> > >>
> > >> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
> > >> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
> > >> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
> > >>
> > >> ~~ Mikey
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Feb  4 14:14:21 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:14:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directorytree
	tolower case
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802041018h7d34354avd2cde2d659ce771e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716544A@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jeff Hanson

> Thanks.  That worked much better.  I must have overlooked the option
> in the man page.

 Find's syntax is, um, kind of baroque. Not the same as "broke", though sometimes
I wonder. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                       (313) 227-2317

 Joe and Suzanne Werfelman of Sciota, Pa., were shocked to hear
 from their son, Richard, a 23-year-old law student called up by
 his military-police unit, that he had been issued a protective
 vest without the plates that stop automatic-rifle rounds. They
  bought and shipped the plates themselves, at a cost of $660.
          http://www.msnbc.com/news/991161.asp?0cv=KB10
              ("Support the Troops", indeed.)
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 17:01:54 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:01:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: laptop power problems
In-Reply-To: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802041401n59f27e77rd496438251b67cbf@mail.gmail.com>

--- David Relson wrote:

> The laptop works fine off of the battery.  Plugged in (but without the
> battery) it doesn't run. He's tested with a friend's power brick and
> the symptoms are the same. We suspect a problem with the power jack
> (port) in the laptop.

> Does anybody have experience with such problems?  What do you recommend?

It's almost certainly a broken connection at the power jack or a
broken power jack.  This is a common problem -- the power plug acts
like a lever to damage the PC board that the jack is soldered to, or
even pry the connector itself apart.  These connectors are fairly
common and the PCB can be repaired as needed, locally.

~~ Mikey


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb  3 05:23:41 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 05:23:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] PCMCIA card stopped working
In-Reply-To: <200802022150.22858.davidl@lmert.com>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716543B@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<200802021322.30014.davidl@lmert.com>
	<47A4C0D2.2020602@hotpop.com> <200802022150.22858.davidl@lmert.com>
Message-ID: <47A5962D.8020606@hotpop.com>

David Lee Lambert wrote:
> On Saturday 02 February 2008 14:13, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> David Lee Lambert wrote:
>>> On Friday 01 February 2008 09:33, Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>>>>> From: David Lee Lambert
>>>>>
>>> [...]  I'm using a USB Ethernet adapter until
>>> that arrives.
>> I would just stick with the USB adapter.
>> 1: You probably have more USB connectors than PCMCIA slots.
> 
> Only one USB port on this laptop,  but two PCMCIA slots.
>

Ouch.
In that case, never mind.

>> 2: You can plug a USB hub into a USB connector, giving you
>>     even more USB connectors.
> 
> I tried that here.  I have a small USB 1.1 hub, but the adapter stopped 
> working (dropping about 80% of TCP/IP packets) when I plugged it and a flash 
> drive into the hub at the same time.  I don't know whether it was a power 
> issue or a bandwidth issue.

It's probably bandwidth.
You need a 2.0 hub.

> 
>> 3: If one of your PCMCIA slots gets damaged, you're down
>> to only one.
>>
>> So basically, use the PCMCIA slots ONLY when you have
>> a job that can't be solved with a USB device.
> 





From relson at osagesoftware.com  Mon Feb  4 20:33:22 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 20:33:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [WLUG] OT: laptop power problems
In-Reply-To: <47A7B712.7090202@nthstone.mi.org>
References: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A7B712.7090202@nthstone.mi.org>
Message-ID: <20080204203322.7a2ebc62@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:08:34 -0500
tony audas wrote:

> David Relson wrote:
> > ... We suspect a problem with the power jack
> > (port) in the laptop.
> >
> > Does anybody have experience with such problems?  What do you
> > recommend? 
> yup, could be a loose power jack.
> 
> i can professionally recommend MCRS on South Industrial 663-3646.
> they have someone onstaff experienced with solder and epoxy.
> i work at Computer Alley on State St.
> we are not currently doing component-level repairs (soldering).
> --


Eric had figured that it was the DC power jack and, with Rick Green's
help, we're going to take a shot at fixing it tomorrow.  If we're not
successful, it's good to know that there _are_ still places in Ann
Arbor that do repairs.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Regards,

David


From gib at juno.com  Mon Feb  4 20:35:05 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 01:35:05 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
Message-ID: <20080204.203505.6148.2@webmail24.vgs.untd.com>


I heard that Google stock took a hit today.  Seems you can't even say anything bad about Microsoft.

-- Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
Here is a link to how to configure the google IMAP services:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/internet/setting-up-gmail-imap-support-in-thunderbird-2x/It's
pretty straight forward but the ports are a little non-traditional.
The
folders are a little strange.

I don't think M$ will ruin too much of the traditional Yahoo structure that
has been struggling the last few years. What I am nervous about is the
support that Yahoo has recently dedicated to improving the Web. YUI and the
developer video center have been invaluable tools to me. MS obviously has no
intention of improving the Web....

On Feb 2, 2008 10:24 PM, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:

> Still may be a chance that Google or even Apple may buy it - yahoo not
> really a search engine like google its more of a portal so the conflict is
> not the same.  And if Apple buys it that will grind Ballmers butt I bet.
> Microsquish buying could see a lot of top people leaving or at least a
> really bad proxy fight with the board.  the stock is near the bid price
> currently so it my pop a bit in a few days to make it not worth doing.
>
> One can only hope
>
>
> Pat
> VP MDLUG
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2008 8:45 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>
> > Wolfger wrote:
> > > That would suck. I'm glad I use Google.
> > >
> >
> > I've been putting off moving my "email of last resort" from
> > yahoo to gmail.  This sealed it... and in fact, gmail has
> > improved its service so much (not just webmail, but both
> > POP and IMAP service, too!) that gmail is probably going to
> > be my ONLY email service.
> >
> > Now I'm just fighting with the configuration -- I've got
> > IMAP working properly, but for some reason, I can't
> > mail out through the SMTP yet.
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 1, 2008 9:13 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?  Yahoo
> > >> is a big user of Unix for its mail servers -- so was Hotmail before
> > >> the MS purchase.
> > >>
> > >> Since Yahoo! is my content provider, this could be a major
> > >> annoyance... I hope antitrust issues prevent this from happening --
> > >> but with the current Bush administration, who knows?
> > >>
> > >> ~~ Mikey
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_____________________________________________________________
The pressure is on! Click now for a new pressure washer!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iietu9myAGbwgwQaBpVgEVTzy1mOeSv0xhITBxcQQUsde0mfa/




From Bhaskar at anitej.com  Mon Feb  4 21:29:43 2008
From: Bhaskar at anitej.com (Bhaskar Navaneetham)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 21:29:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [WLUG] OT: laptop power problems
In-Reply-To: <20080204203322.7a2ebc62@osage.osagesoftware.com>
References: <20080203151917.1d908e31@osage.osagesoftware.com>
	<47A7B712.7090202@nthstone.mi.org>
	<20080204203322.7a2ebc62@osage.osagesoftware.com>
Message-ID: <14d67c8d0802041829u6c718110k289eea9a6c2f07ff@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

The power card cost around $ 50.00 or may less if you buy from dell store or
buy a universal adapter from radio shack or circuit city that will help you
even  lot better if you use some other laptop, camcorder, camera. If you
decide to go with universal adapter, my recommendation don't go for iGO
product. They are expensive and hard to get the plug from them.

Best of luck for your research.

Bhaskar




On 04/02/2008, David Relson <relson at osagesoftware.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:08:34 -0500
> tony audas wrote:
>
> > David Relson wrote:
> > > ... We suspect a problem with the power jack
> > > (port) in the laptop.
> > >
> > > Does anybody have experience with such problems?  What do you
> > > recommend?
> > yup, could be a loose power jack.
> >
> > i can professionally recommend MCRS on South Industrial 663-3646.
> > they have someone onstaff experienced with solder and epoxy.
> > i work at Computer Alley on State St.
> > we are not currently doing component-level repairs (soldering).
> > --
>
>
> Eric had figured that it was the DC power jack and, with Rick Green's
> help, we're going to take a shot at fixing it tomorrow.  If we're not
> successful, it's good to know that there _are_ still places in Ann
> Arbor that do repairs.
>
> Thank you all for your feedback.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb  3 20:32:34 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 20:32:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Serial port monitoring
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080130152954.02958ba0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A1F2AE.9060609@hotpop.com>	<20080201032429.F0D9F127C97@starfox.local>	<6.2.3.4.0.20080201150406.029514e0@pop.gmail.com>	<47A6094E.6080009@bendorius.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080203173343.029505c0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A66B32.5090601@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
> At 01:34 PM 2/3/08, Joseph C. Bender wrote:
> 
> 
>> Well, now that you've defined the problem domain, this 
>> might easier to
>> solve than you might think.
>>
>> Take a look at the pppd manpage, and the "SCRIPTS" section.
>>
>> There's a environment variable called "CONNECT_TIME",
 >> which, per the manpage is defined as:
>>
>> "The number of seconds from when the PPP negotiation
 >> started until the connection was terminated."
> 
>      Problem is, the ppp is being handled in the Windows
 > virtual machine, and thus is not likely to be visible to
 > the Linux host. All the host is likely to know is that
 > the serial port is being used by VMware, and maybe if
 > I'm lucky whether or not the modem is talking over the
 > phone. (There had for a while been no version of NZ for
 > Linux; and I think one might still be lacking.)
> 


GEEZE...spend another $2 per month and get 24x7 DSL.

Some problems just are NOT worth solving, because there's
another method that's in a completely different class.


>      Now this doesn't mean I can't use the idea. But I
 > will have to successfully install the software to run
 > via Wine, and get a handle on keeping a tarball of the
 > known good state around to restore periodically, and
 > also denying access to the rest of the system to all
 > the netzero stuff...Maybe NZ via Wine in a Kanotix VM?
> 

Or you could just stop with this stupid dial-up stuff
and be done with this non-problem.

>      I'd still like to see what can be done with simple
 > serial port monitoring first.
> 
> ----
> 




From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Feb  5 02:04:17 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 02:04:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's Mail Bag
Message-ID: <47A80A71.7030005@ameritech.net>


> Dear Metro Detroit Linux Users Group Members:
> 
> Join us for the briefing "Managing requirements throughout the software 
> development lifecycle" and learn how to use IBM's Rational and WebSphere 
> tools from business modeling to design and testing.
> Detroit on February 14
> Register Today
> 
> Get an in-depth look at the process of defining and managing requirements 
> throughout the Software Development Lifecycle, as well as the IBM Rational 
> and IBM WebSphere tools used throughout the process.
> Join us for a complimentary continental breakfast at 8:30 a.m. The 
> briefing runs from 9:00 a.m. to 12:45 p.m. 
> Get more information on IBM developerWorks Live! events worldwide.
> We look forward to seeing you at the briefing. 
> Sincerely,
> The IBM developerWorks team



From tony at bemushosting.com  Tue Feb  5 13:50:54 2008
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 13:50:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's Mail Bag
In-Reply-To: <47A80A71.7030005@ameritech.net>
References: <47A80A71.7030005@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1202237454.6006.17.camel@bemus-tony>

Where can I register for this?

Tony Bemus


On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 02:04 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote: 

> > Dear Metro Detroit Linux Users Group Members:
> > 
> > Join us for the briefing "Managing requirements throughout the software 
> > development lifecycle" and learn how to use IBM's Rational and WebSphere 
> > tools from business modeling to design and testing.
> > Detroit on February 14
> > Register Today




From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Feb  5 16:06:30 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:06:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's Mail Bag
In-Reply-To: <1202237454.6006.17.camel@bemus-tony>
References: <47A80A71.7030005@ameritech.net>
	<1202237454.6006.17.camel@bemus-tony>
Message-ID: <47A8CFD6.6060304@ameritech.net>

Sorry,
The URL wasn't included in the text, only the html, so it got stripped.
<http://ibm.com/developerworks/ecma/campaign/er.jsp?id=251451&imid=55988242>


Tony Bemus wrote:
> Where can I register for this?
> 
> Tony Bemus
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 02:04 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote: 
> 
>>> Dear Metro Detroit Linux Users Group Members:
>>>
>>> Join us for the briefing "Managing requirements throughout the software 
>>> development lifecycle" and learn how to use IBM's Rational and WebSphere 
>>> tools from business modeling to design and testing.
>>> Detroit on February 14
>>> Register Today




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb  4 16:27:46 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:27:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory
 tree to	lower case
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47A78352.8050902@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> I was trying to get an old application to work under Wine.  As you all
> know, file and directory names are case sensitive in Linux but not in
> Windows.  Wine hides the differences from the Windows applications.
> When an executable update is applied to a Windows app that is designed
> to overwrite existing files, Wine treats them as case insensitive so
> the correct ones get clobbered.  But in the case of the app I was
> working with, the update is a zip file that needs to be extracted over
> the existing app tree in order to replace some of the files in various
> subdirectories.  Just to make it fun, the file names in the zip had
> different case than the target tree.  Not just all upper or lower case
> either - lots of random CamelCase also.  Since Wine hides the case
> from the app renaming everything to lower case doesn't affect it so I
> went looking for a shell script, command, or graphical utility to do
> that.  I found lots of script examples and apps but none of them
> worked.  The problem is that none of them can handle renaming
> directories recursively, especially more than one level deep.  The
> "find" command can exec another command like "rename" but it parses
> the full tree first then runs the app which then fails as soon as it
> tries to access a subdirectory of a directory it just renamed.  I
> threw together this hideous script that exhaustively parses the tree
> but does anyone have a better method?  My script handles hidden file
> names with spaces and other nonsense and I attached a tar.gz of the
> tree I was testing against.


You didn't take advantage of the find command:

I would approach it like this:


#!/bin/bash
# recursively rename files and directories by translating
# upper case letters to lower case.
#
# Note -- beware of filename collisions when updating with
# files from microsoft platforms:
#
# 1.  Run once to convert all files to lowercase BEFORE
#     installing update files
#
# 2. Install updated MS-platform files
#
# 3. Run again, in event of name collision,
#     new files will overwrite older files
#
#
#
# usage:  scriptname
#
# No arguments... operates on the contents of the current directory
#
# Date		Author			Action
# ------------	-----------------------	---------------------------
# 04 Feb 2008	Aaron R. Kulkis		0.1 Code (untested)


filetolower()
{ FILENAME=$1
   NEWFILENAME=`echo $FILENAME | tr [:upper:] [:lower:] `
   mv $FILENAME $NEWFILENAME
}

find . -print -exec  filetolower \{\}\;





From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 18:02:02 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 18:02:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a directory
	tree to lower case
In-Reply-To: <47A78352.8050902@hotpop.com>
References: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A78352.8050902@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802051502t1864ae91o6f0c8ea04b1d60ac@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 4, 2008 4:27 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> You didn't take advantage of the find command:
>
> I would approach it like this:
>
>
> #!/bin/bash
> # recursively rename files and directories by translating
> # upper case letters to lower case.
> #
> # Note -- beware of filename collisions when updating with
> # files from microsoft platforms:
> #
> # 1.  Run once to convert all files to lowercase BEFORE
> #     installing update files
> #
> # 2. Install updated MS-platform files
> #
> # 3. Run again, in event of name collision,
> #     new files will overwrite older files
> #
> #
> #
> # usage:  scriptname
> #
> # No arguments... operates on the contents of the current directory
> #
> # Date          Author                  Action
> # ------------  ----------------------- ---------------------------
> # 04 Feb 2008   Aaron R. Kulkis         0.1 Code (untested)
>
>
> filetolower()
> { FILENAME=$1
>    NEWFILENAME=`echo $FILENAME | tr [:upper:] [:lower:] `
>    mv $FILENAME $NEWFILENAME
> }
>
> find . -print -exec  filetolower \{\}\;

Thanks for the tip.  I need to start using functions more in my
scripts.  It hasn't been a major problem yet due to my script
structures but it would help readability if I planned for it in
advance.


From Stan at mcomputersolutions.com  Tue Feb  5 20:40:12 2008
From: Stan at mcomputersolutions.com (Stan Green)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 20:40:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
Message-ID: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>

I picked up a 8GB USB drive at Micro Center. It is one of their store brand 
devices. When I went to use it I realized it is formated FAT32 which has a 
4GB file size limit. The reason I got the drive was to move large (6-7GB) 
files. I know ext2 can support larger files, but I hesitate to reformat the 
USB drive for fear of destroying it. (I have seen some indications on the 
internet that trying to reformat a USB drive has destroyed it.)

My thought is to keep a small FAT32 partition to store the Windows and Mac 
ext2 drivers in case I need them one of these systems. 

Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?

Thanks,
Stan Green


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 20:44:45 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 17:44:45 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802051744j5f951cc4pfeba0e5019501948@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 5, 2008 5:40 PM, Stan Green <Stan at mcomputersolutions.com> wrote:
> I picked up a 8GB USB drive at Micro Center. It is one of their store brand
> devices. When I went to use it I realized it is formated FAT32 which has a
> 4GB file size limit. The reason I got the drive was to move large (6-7GB)
> files. I know ext2 can support larger files, but I hesitate to reformat the
> USB drive for fear of destroying it. (I have seen some indications on the
> internet that trying to reformat a USB drive has destroyed it.)
>
> My thought is to keep a small FAT32 partition to store the Windows and Mac
> ext2 drivers in case I need them one of these systems.
>
> Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?

Yes, you may format however you like.  I once created a nice Ubuntu
USB live stick using ext3, but I bet ext2 would work as well.  If you
have enough space, you can even keep a FAT partition on it around for
use on windows...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Tue Feb  5 22:58:57 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Tue,  5 Feb 2008 22:58:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Hideous script for recursively renaming a
	directory	tree to lower case
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802051502t1864ae91o6f0c8ea04b1d60ac@mail.gmail.com>
	(jhansonxi@gmail.com)
References: <b02c40e90802012044q6d71bf49p35aa84fb4b943e73@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A78352.8050902@hotpop.com>
	<b02c40e90802051502t1864ae91o6f0c8ea04b1d60ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080206035857.08E3915EA04@starfox.local>

Jeff,

> Thanks for the tip.
> I need to start using functions more in my scripts.
> It hasn't been a major problem yet due to my script
> structures but it would help readability if I planned for it in
> advance.

The situation of selecting files and performing some operation
crops up often enough to have it's own POSIX.2 idiom.

     find ... -print | while read f; do ... "$f" ...; done

Note the use of quotes each parameter/command/... expansion
which avoids the often unintended splitting
of names with spaces into separate tokens.
Note that using one-pathname-per-line from -print allows use of "$f" in
dirname and other utilities in portable scripts.

     ---- function-find-while-test.sh ----
#!/bin/sh
# Project: Tutorials
# File:    Demonstration of function, find, while use
# Type:    /bin/sh
# Compl:   POSIX.2
# Author:  Dr. Robert J. Meier <robert.meier at computer.org>
# History: 2006.08.12 -rjm- file creation
#          2008.01.05 -rjm- added function demo



# First generate a function
changecase() {
  FILENAME="$1"			# quotes dont split words containing spaces
  NEWFILENAME="$( echo "$FILENAME" |
    tr "[:upper:][:lower:]" "[:lower:][:upper:]" )"
  echo "$FILENAME => $NEWFILENAME"
  mv "$FILENAME" "$NEWFILENAME"
}
export -f changecase		# functions are not auto exported to subshells

# Create some files to change
TESTDIR=/tmp/test-function-find-while
test -e "$TESTDIR" && rm -r "$TESTDIR"
mkdir -p "$TESTDIR/bibbity/bobbity"
cd "$TESTDIR"
touch Abracabra bibbity/bobbity/boo 'Hocus Pocus'

# Change them using find-while idiom
find . -type f -print |
  while read f; do (cd "$(dirname "$f")"; changecase "$(basename "$f")"); done
ls -R
     ---- function-find-while-test.sh ----

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Bob

  "You are responsible, forever, for what you have tamed.
   You are responsible for your rose."
     -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery




From tony at bemushosting.com  Tue Feb  5 23:03:30 2008
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:03:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802051744j5f951cc4pfeba0e5019501948@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<fe37588d0802051744j5f951cc4pfeba0e5019501948@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1202270610.9596.0.camel@bemus-tony>

I agree,  I have done the same and my flash drives still work.
Tony


On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 17:44 -0800, Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:

> >
> > Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?
> 
> Yes, you may format however you like.  I once created a nice Ubuntu
> USB live stick using ext3, but I bet ext2 would work as well.  If you
> have enough space, you can even keep a FAT partition on it around for
> use on windows...


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 23:53:26 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 23:53:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802052053h3cb39a61q737e58487d28b6e1@mail.gmail.com>

--- Stan Green wrote:
> I picked up a 8GB USB drive at Micro Center. It is one of their store brand
> devices. When I went to use it I realized it is formated FAT32 which has a
> 4GB file size limit.
> Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?

Why ext2 instead of ext3?  As a journaled file system, ext3 should be
more robust -- this might be a useful feature for a flash drive.

~~ Mikey


From shmi85 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  6 01:34:29 2008
From: shmi85 at yahoo.com (Elisa Gomez)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 22:34:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] More External Drive Problems
Message-ID: <269912.54239.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

I have an amazing ability to exponentially cause more
problems for myself. This occurred because I think I
edited a some file to permanently name my drive (I
named it 'franz') instead of having it rename itself a
different thing each time it gets remounted. Someone
on this list gave directions on how to do this, but
for the life of me I cannot remember what file I
edited.

When I shut down, unplug my laptop and start it back
up with the drive physically disconnected, this is
what happens during start-up:

Activing swap... [OK]
Checking root file system...
fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
/dev/sda2: clean, 210976/2093056 files,
1508440/4182924 blocks [OK]

Checking file systems...
fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
fsck.ext2: Unable to resolve 'LABEL="franz"'
fsck died with exit status 8 [fail]

*File system check failed
A log is being saved in /var/log/fsck/checkfs if that
location is writeable.
Please repair the file system manually.
*A maintenance shell will now be started.
CONTROL-D will terminate this shell and resume system
boot.
bash: no job control in this shell
bash: groups: command not found
bash: lesspipe: command not found
bash: Command: command not found
bash: The: command not found
bash: dircolors: command not found
bash: Command: command not found
bash: The: command not found
root at trotsky:~#  *Stopping the Firestarter firewall...


And then it would freeze up and pressing ctrl-d did
nothing.

I just recreated this again because I wanted to paste
in the log results for everyone and this time it did
continue with start-up after I pressed ctrl-d a couple
of times. However, I'd prefer to fix it somehow so
that it just checks to see if the drive is connected
and if it's not, it carries on normally without
breaking fsck. This is the log file:

Log of fsck -C -R -A -a 
Wed Feb  6 01:27:15 2008

fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
fsck.ext2: Unable to resolve 'LABEL="franz"'

fsck died with exit status 8

Wed Feb  6 01:27:15 2008
----------------


Any ideas? I really wish I could remember what file I
added an entry to about the external drive.

~Elisa


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Wed Feb  6 07:32:59 2008
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 07:32:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More External Drive Problems
In-Reply-To: <269912.54239.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <269912.54239.qm@web63415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080206073259.6e275e93@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 22:34:29 -0800 (PST)
Elisa Gomez wrote:

> I have an amazing ability to exponentially cause more
> problems for myself. This occurred because I think I
> edited a some file to permanently name my drive (I
> named it 'franz') instead of having it rename itself a
> different thing each time it gets remounted. Someone
> on this list gave directions on how to do this, but
> for the life of me I cannot remember what file I
> edited.
> 
> When I shut down, unplug my laptop and start it back
> up with the drive physically disconnected, this is
> what happens during start-up:
> 
> Activing swap... [OK]
> Checking root file system...
> fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
> /dev/sda2: clean, 210976/2093056 files,
> 1508440/4182924 blocks [OK]
> 
> Checking file systems...
> fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
> fsck.ext2: Unable to resolve 'LABEL="franz"'
> fsck died with exit status 8 [fail]
> 
> *File system check failed
> A log is being saved in /var/log/fsck/checkfs if that
> location is writeable.
> Please repair the file system manually.
> *A maintenance shell will now be started.
> CONTROL-D will terminate this shell and resume system
> boot.
> bash: no job control in this shell
> bash: groups: command not found
> bash: lesspipe: command not found
> bash: Command: command not found
> bash: The: command not found
> bash: dircolors: command not found
> bash: Command: command not found
> bash: The: command not found
> root at trotsky:~#  *Stopping the Firestarter firewall...
> 
> 
> And then it would freeze up and pressing ctrl-d did
> nothing.
> 
> I just recreated this again because I wanted to paste
> in the log results for everyone and this time it did
> continue with start-up after I pressed ctrl-d a couple
> of times. However, I'd prefer to fix it somehow so
> that it just checks to see if the drive is connected
> and if it's not, it carries on normally without
> breaking fsck. This is the log file:
> 
> Log of fsck -C -R -A -a 
> Wed Feb  6 01:27:15 2008
> 
> fsck 1.40.2 (12-Jul-2007)
> fsck.ext2: Unable to resolve 'LABEL="franz"'
> 
> fsck died with exit status 8
> 
> Wed Feb  6 01:27:15 2008
> ----------------
> 
> 
> Any ideas? I really wish I could remember what file I
> added an entry to about the external drive.
> 
> ~Elisa

H'lo Elisa,

All is not lost!  The file is likely to be /etc/fstab.  If not that
file, it's a file in directory /etc.  Using grep's "-r" (recursive)
flag you can find the file by running "grep -n -r franz /etc".

HTH,

David


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Wed Feb  6 07:56:10 2008
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 07:56:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <C3CF189A.583B8%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Sorry for being terse, but I call BS on the "indications on the internet
that trying to reformat a USB drive has destroyed it."  If writing
filesystem information to a USB drive destroys it, then I can't see that you
wouldn't lose your data anyways, since that is all a format is really doing.

I hope that makes sense - my first cup of coffee is sitting in front of me,
undrunk as of yet.

Greg


On 2/5/08 8:40 PM, "Stan Green" <Stan at mcomputersolutions.com> wrote:

> I picked up a 8GB USB drive at Micro Center. It is one of their store brand
> devices. When I went to use it I realized it is formated FAT32 which has a
> 4GB file size limit. The reason I got the drive was to move large (6-7GB)
> files. I know ext2 can support larger files, but I hesitate to reformat the
> USB drive for fear of destroying it. (I have seen some indications on the
> internet that trying to reformat a USB drive has destroyed it.)
> 
> My thought is to keep a small FAT32 partition to store the Windows and Mac
> ext2 drivers in case I need them one of these systems.
> 
> Has anyone formated a USB drive as ext2?
> 
> Thanks,
> Stan Green
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Wed Feb  6 07:18:24 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed,  6 Feb 2008 07:18:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] ext2 on USB drive?
In-Reply-To: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com> (message from
	Stan Green on Tue, 5 Feb 2008 20:40:12 -0500)
References: <200802052040.12637.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <20080206121824.693B515EA04@starfox.local>

Stan,

> I have an amazing ability to exponentially cause more
> problems for myself. This occurred because I think I
> edited a some file to permanently name my drive (I
> named it 'franz') instead of having it rename itself a
> different thing each time it gets remounted. Someone
> on this list gave directions on how to do this, but
> for the life of me I cannot remember what file I
> edited.

I suspect the file editted is /etc/fstab,
a configuration file for mount(8).
It is a DIF (Data Interchange Format) file with six fields.

  "The sixth field, (fs_passno), is used by the fsck(8) program to  deter-
   mine the order in which filesystem checks are done at reboot time.  The
   root filesystem should be specified with a fs_passno of  1,  ...
   If the sixth field is not present or zero, ... fsck will assume that
   the filesystem does not need to be checked."
     -- fstab(5)

Removable media does not nominally need to be checked at reboot.
>From the symptoms, I suspect that fs_passno is erroneously 1,
requiring its presence for boot.

See fstab(5), mount(8) for details.

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Bob

  "There is a single light of science,
   and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere."
     -- Isaac Asimov


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Feb  6 09:46:40 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:46:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare?
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716544F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

I've got a problem with my Windows machine at work. Recently, it's started
locking up hard when running VMWare. (The reason we need VMWare is pure
Microsoft silliness - their own compilers are slightly incompatible between
versions, so we need different revs of the compilers and libraries to work on
different revs of our product.) By "locking up hard" I mean the screen freezes,
audio playback halts, and nothing can be done but cutting the power and rebooting.
The system is stable except when running VMWare.

 I haven't been able to identify anything in particular causing the problem. I've
upgraded to a bigger disk recently, but I've uninstalled and reinstalled VMWare
Workstation 5 and 6, and started from scratch with new VMWare machine images, and
I still get the same lockups.

 I've heard that one can run a Windows install on a physical partition from
within VMWare. I'm trying to decide if I should shrink a partition on this
machine, install Linux, and run a couple of instances of VMWare from within
Linux - one for my day-to-day office stuff (like Outlook), and one for compiling
and development. I'd like to keep the existing Windows stuff insofar as possible,
just running it from within VMWare on Linux. I strongly suspect that VMWare will
be more stable on Linux than XP. The machine is a 2GHz P4 with 2GB of RAM, so I
figure it won't have too much trouble handling the load.

 Does anyone have any experience with this? Any tips or gotchas or warnings or
suggestions?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                           (313) 227-2317

 "Capitalism works primarily because most of the ways that a company
  can be scum end up being extremely bad for business when there's
                   working competition." -rra
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From rmclaughlin at mdlug.org  Wed Feb  6 16:51:32 2008
From: rmclaughlin at mdlug.org (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:51:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <47AA2BE4.mailNL31ECUTB@mdlug.nuge.com>

test


From rmclaughlin at mdlug.org  Wed Feb  6 16:56:08 2008
From: rmclaughlin at mdlug.org (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:56:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MDLUG Mailing list
Message-ID: <47AA2CF8.mailNQD19OMB4@mdlug.nuge.com>

MDLUGers:
The MDLUG mailing list server is doing just fine, but our DNS is kind of wonked
while we're transitioning our registrar. Please bear with us, service will resume
soon.

Thankyou
Raymond McLaughlin
MDLUG Server Admin


From mailman at mdlug.org  Thu Feb  7 04:40:08 2008
From: mailman at mdlug.org (GNU mailing list manager)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 04:40:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <47AAD1F8.mail14411SUTB@mdlug.nuge.com>

Day two test.


From rmclaughlin at mdlug.org  Thu Feb  7 12:46:58 2008
From: rmclaughlin at mdlug.org (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 12:46:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Still working on it
Message-ID: <47AB4412.mail2TD11VEUK@mdlug.nuge.com>

MDLUGers:

Sorry for the continued lack of access to your regular riviting discussions.
We are currently awaiting a password known only to someone who seems to be out of town.
We do have our regular meeting this Saturday at 12:30. For more info look here
<http://216.144.208.32>
With that IP you can browse the whole web site, unfortunately it doesn't seem to work for email.
We'll make an announcement when lie list is back up.

Sincerly
Raymond McLaughlin
Server Admin MDLUG


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb  7 20:57:10 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:57:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <47ABB6F6.9070901@ameritech.net>

test


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb  7 21:07:16 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:07:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] We're coming back up, but don't all post at once
Message-ID: <47ABB954.4000207@ameritech.net>

We're coming back up, but don't all post at once- Please
The config is still a little wonky, so give me a couple more hours.

It looks like Our presenter for this Saturday has experienced a
scheduling conflict and so we'll need to take a rain check. Vice
President Baker sounded like he could pull out a presentation on short
notice. Or maybe we'll just have to amuse our selves.

I hope to see lots of you this Saturday. Please hold your posts for a
couple hours

Raymond McLaughlin
Server-Admin mdlug.org


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb  7 21:38:20 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:38:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Testing my patience
Message-ID: <47ABC09C.2020300@ameritech.net>

Thinner...


From dobwan at comcast.net  Thu Feb  7 22:41:29 2008
From: dobwan at comcast.net (Duane Brown)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:41:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
Message-ID: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>

My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound 
business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I 
believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.

They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error 
something like "communications error on port 25".

I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of knowledge 
in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS environment with less than a 
handful of machines. I'm guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they 
can share the connection.

I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.

If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll forward your 
information to my niece.

I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put them in 
touch with someone who can get this fixed with out wasting their time.

Duane


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb  7 23:04:37 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 23:04:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Let the punitry and profundity commence!
Message-ID: <47ABD4D5.2060300@ameritech.net>

MDLUGers,

Sorry about the glitch. The MDLUG mailing lists are back up and functioning.

Here's what happened:

Bradley Glonka, an MDLUGer from way back in the SGI days, has been the
holder of the mdlug.org domain name for the last eight year of so. Every
year for the last several we have offered to compensate him or take it
off his hands, and he has always declined and just paid it himself.
(Thanks much Bradley!) Until this year. The Domain name was up for
renewal soon and Bradley took us up on our offer.

Since we were changing the ownership of the domain name we decided to
also shop for a cheaper registrar. The implementation of this strategy
was delegated and arrangements made. The plan was too change only the
registrar, leaving the Authoritative Nameserver and IP address
unchanged. With these attributes remaining unchanged the transition
should have been smooth.

This plan fell apart in the implementation. By some miscommunication the
new registrar left the Authoritative Nameserver and IP address at
*their* defaults. And to make matters worse the transfer, arranged last
week, went through on Wednesday, when the delegatee who was the primary
contact was out of town and out of contact.

Eventually contact was made, passwords were passed, and now things seem
to be working as they should. Since the smooth transition thing didn't
happen I went ahead and let the registrar provide Authoritative
Nameservice. Jay you don't need to do that any more, thanks.

So let the punitry and profundity commence! The MDLUG mailing lissts are
back on the air.

Raymond McLaughlin
MDLUG Server Admin


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 23:28:09 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 23:28:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Let the punitry and profundity commence!
In-Reply-To: <47ABD4D5.2060300@ameritech.net>
References: <47ABD4D5.2060300@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802072028p36f6b118n8cdea962079e07b@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 7, 2008 11:04 PM, Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
> So let the punitry and profundity commence! The MDLUG mailing lissts are
> back on the air.

That's good.  I guess I won't be needing the recall petition posters I
was working on. :D


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Fri Feb  8 00:09:10 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Fri,  8 Feb 2008 00:09:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net> (message from Duane Brown on Thu, 
	07 Feb 2008 22:41:29 -0500)
References: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080208050910.B13AB15EA04@starfox.local>

Duane,

> My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound 
> business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I 
> believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.

I recently switched to AT&T DSL and have found them linux friendly.
Their phone support had no trouble supplying the mail server address,
authentication protocol and particulars, when asked.

> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error 
> something like "communications error on port 25".

Port 25 is the IANA assignment for smtp.

Have you tried "bash> telnet mail.att.net 25"?
  (Replace mail.att.net with the mail server assigned by AT&T.)

See rfc2821 simple mail transport protocol for details.

> I am assuming this is configuration issue ...
> This is a mixed Apple and ... environment with less than a 
> handful of machines. I'm guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they 
> can share the connection.

Did you change your mail settings (e.g. relayhost (postfix), DS (sendmail))?

IIRC, your distro has gui tools for configuring mail.
SuSE uses "bash> sudo /sbin/yast2 mail".

AT&T DSL requires that I authenticate with the mail server using sasl
(rfc2222 simple authentication and security layer).
My prior isp used chap (challenge protocol(?)).
Both are supported by both postfix and sendmail,
as well as most mail user agents.



> I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put them in 
> touch with someone who can get this fixed with out wasting their time.

IMHO, a business is usually wise to pay a skilled local
for such non-core issues.

Good luck,
-- 
Bob

  "Touch a scientist and you touch a child."
     -- Ray Bradbury



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  8 01:15:42 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 01:15:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
References: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802072215h72301d67ife117d5b18ec7f1b@mail.gmail.com>

Duane Brown wrote:

> My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound
> business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I
> believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.

> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error
> something like "communications error on port 25".

AT&T/Yahoo! recently changed their mail protocols to SSL, with
"standard" settings for same.   My old non-SSL settings worked, but
Yahoo's mail server groused every time I hit it until I made the
switch to SSL.  Looking at the settings I JUST changed a few days ago
(after not using POP mail for a few months):

Inbound mail (POP) is on port 995 (default SSL in-port on
IceApe/SeaMonkey/Thunderbird).
Outbound mail (SMTP) is on port 465 (default SSL out-port on
IceApe/SeaMonkey/Thunderbird).

These look like the general defaults for SSL-encrypted mail transport.
 It all works fine.  You can check the Yahoo! Mail FAQs for details,
I'm sure...

~~ Mikey


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb  8 06:34:56 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 06:34:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080208113340.BE023C0C0@impelind.com>

Do they host their own internal Email server or do they access one outside
of their building via an outside webhost?

We utilize AT&T Business DSL, we host our own internal email server with all
incoming/outgoing email on our own equipment. The business service includes
5 outside IP Addresses that are on permanent lease to our account.

The solution to the problem you describe depends upon how they send/receive
email.

If it is an inhouse email server, I would take a look at their router,
assuming that their inhouse email server worked fine with their previous
ISP.

If it is an outside server, then they are probably being blocked somewhere
in AT&T's network, probably as a measure to combat spam, if they are setup
with a dynamic "residential" class DSL. Which means a lengthy telephone
conversation with AT&T's Level 1 support people, before being pushed to
Level 2 for another lengthy conversation before possibly being given a
number to their network routing team for another lengthy conversation that
should provide some resolution. 

	-Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Duane Brown
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:41 PM
> To: mug - discuss; MDLUG's main mailing list
> Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
> 
> My niece works for a company that is having problems with 
> their outbound business email. They need some help getting it 
> straightened out. I believe it is directly related to a 
> change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.
> 
> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an 
> error something like "communications error on port 25".
> 
> I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of 
> knowledge in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS 
> environment with less than a handful of machines. I'm 
> guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they can share the 
> connection.
> 
> I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.
> 
> If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll 
> forward your information to my niece.
> 
> I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put 
> them in touch with someone who can get this fixed with out 
> wasting their time.
> 
> Duane
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb  8 06:36:29 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 06:36:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare?
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716544F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20080208113514.5201DC0C8@impelind.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Ingles, Raymond
> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:47 AM
> To: Mdlug (E-mail)
> Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare?
> 
> I've got a problem with my Windows machine at work. Recently, it's 
> started locking up hard when running VMWare. (The reason we need 
> VMWare is pure Microsoft silliness - their own compilers are slightly 
> incompatible between versions, so we need different revs of the 
> compilers and libraries to work on different revs of our product.) By 
> "locking up hard" I mean the screen freezes, audio playback halts, and 
> nothing can be done but cutting the power and rebooting.
> The system is stable except when running VMWare.
>

	I had something similar happen under Linux while running VMWare
hosting a Windows Server 2003 VM. On a whim, I recompiled the VMWare
launcher, which you must do with every kernel upgrade otherwise VMWare will
refuse to launch, and the problem simply disappeared.

> 
>  I haven't been able to identify anything in particular causing the 
> problem. I've upgraded to a bigger disk recently, but I've uninstalled 
> and reinstalled VMWare Workstation 5 and 6, and started from scratch 
> with new VMWare machine images, and I still get the same lockups.
> 
>  I've heard that one can run a Windows install on a physical partition 
> from within VMWare. I'm trying to decide if I should shrink a 
> partition on this machine, install Linux, and run a couple of 
> instances of VMWare from within Linux - one for my day-to-day office 
> stuff (like Outlook), and one for compiling and development. I'd like 
> to keep the existing Windows stuff insofar as possible, just running 
> it from within VMWare on Linux. I strongly suspect that VMWare will be 
> more stable on Linux than XP. The machine is a 2GHz P4 with 2GB of 
> RAM, so I figure it won't have too much trouble handling the load.
> 

	On my laptop, I dual boot Windows XP Pro and Linux (OpenSuSe 10.3),
I noticed no real difference between the performance and stability of VMWare
under either host OS.

	I am unsure as to whether or not you will be able to run a Windows
Install on a physical partition. I can take a looksee on my laptop, I am
only using the free downloadable VMWare client, which may have limitations
precluding that ability.

	I do know that Windows Vista performance with VMWare is incredibly
lackluster. I was running the same Windows Server 2003 VM on a brand new
dual-core, 2GB or RAM higher end Dell workstation running Windows Vista and
the performance of VMWare was simply appaling. My laptop, which is nearly 5
years old, ran circles around the Vista machine with VMWare performance.

>
>  Does anyone have any experience with this? Any tips or gotchas or 
> warnings or suggestions?
> 

	I have heard that VMWare can hose the heck out of network drivers on
both Windows and Linux, if you setup the client to provide network
capability to the virtual machines. I never had a reason to have network
access for the VM I was running, so I am unable to verify this rumor. I
would look into that before running into networking with VMWare.

	-Rob



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb  8 06:46:51 2008
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:46:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
Message-ID: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
 & runs squid.   

I had it set up so that eth0 was internal, and eth1 was external.  The
 iptables example that I found that seemed to do what I wanted
 had them switched, so I switched them.   Now for some reason, if the
 internal network is working, I can't ping outside URLs.   I can change
 the default gateway to be the external route, and then I can ping outside
 URLs, but then the internal network stops working.    

Should it be easy to ping remote hosts on both the internal network and
 the outside?   Did switching the 2 nics somehow screw things up?   It
 worked before.   My only other choice is to completely reinstall linux
 it seems, then squid, then a kernel that I can recompile to support
 forwarding IP packets.   

I thought, if I can only add the right route(s) to my routing table, I
 can fix this.  I could switch the bindings on the nics back, but then the iptables nat doesn't work.

How does the kernel normally know which interface to use when you issue
 a ping, or an http get?   Can I have 2 default gateways?    Why does
 only 1 seem to work at a time?   Here's my routing table so far:
Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth0
192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth0
169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 eth1
default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth0
default         alpine11        0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth1





       Thanks for any help or insight
 anyone can offer.    Dean. 


From rborromeo at the5spot.com  Fri Feb  8 08:08:32 2008
From: rborromeo at the5spot.com (rborromeo at the5spot.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:08:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <11da01c86a53$b5449660$0300c80a@terzo>

You can't  have 2 default routes what you will have to do is costing of 
routes with route lookup tables.

Look at the man pages for  iproute2 it's pretty much baked into any modern 
distro it's been a while since I've done it and I think they've improved 
since I used it
so the verbage may not be the same anymore. I think it was something like 
this-

ip route add default equalize nexthop via gatewayip1 weight 1 dev eth2 
nexthop via gatewayip2 weight 1 dev eth1



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dean Durant" <mdlug at sbcglobal.net>
To: <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 6:46 AM
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?


>
> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
> & runs squid.
>
> I had it set up so that eth0 was internal, and eth1 was external.  The
> iptables example that I found that seemed to do what I wanted
> had them switched, so I switched them.   Now for some reason, if the
> internal network is working, I can't ping outside URLs.   I can change
> the default gateway to be the external route, and then I can ping outside
> URLs, but then the internal network stops working.
>
> Should it be easy to ping remote hosts on both the internal network and
> the outside?   Did switching the 2 nics somehow screw things up?   It
> worked before.   My only other choice is to completely reinstall linux
> it seems, then squid, then a kernel that I can recompile to support
> forwarding IP packets.
>
> I thought, if I can only add the right route(s) to my routing table, I
> can fix this.  I could switch the bindings on the nics back, but then the 
> iptables nat doesn't work.
>
> How does the kernel normally know which interface to use when you issue
> a ping, or an http get?   Can I have 2 default gateways?    Why does
> only 1 seem to work at a time?   Here's my routing table so far:
> Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use 
> Iface
> host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 
> eth1
> 10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 
> eth0
> 192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 
> eth1
> 10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 
> eth0
> 169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 
> eth1
> default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 
> eth0
> default         alpine11        0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 
> eth1
>
>
>
>
>
>       Thanks for any help or insight
> anyone can offer.    Dean.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From rrclark at rrclark.net  Fri Feb  8 08:32:03 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:32:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.00.0802080824510.8879@geek.private.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:

>
> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
> & runs squid.
>
> I had it set up so that eth0 was internal, and eth1 was external.  The
> iptables example that I found that seemed to do what I wanted
> had them switched, so I switched them.   Now for some reason, if the
> internal network is working, I can't ping outside URLs.   I can change
> the default gateway to be the external route, and then I can ping outside
> URLs, but then the internal network stops working.
>
> Should it be easy to ping remote hosts on both the internal network and
> the outside?   Did switching the 2 nics somehow screw things up?   It
> worked before.   My only other choice is to completely reinstall linux
> it seems, then squid, then a kernel that I can recompile to support
> forwarding IP packets.
>
> I thought, if I can only add the right route(s) to my routing table, I
> can fix this.  I could switch the bindings on the nics back, but then the iptables nat doesn't work.
>
> How does the kernel normally know which interface to use when you issue
> a ping, or an http get?   Can I have 2 default gateways?    Why does
> only 1 seem to work at a time?   Here's my routing table so far:
> Destination     Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
> host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth1
> 10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth0
> 192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth1
> 10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth0
> 169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 eth1
> default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth0
> default         alpine11        0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth1
>
>       Thanks for any help or insight
> anyone can offer.    Dean.

Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?

net.ipv4.ip_forward=1

Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set 
to 0, change it to 1.


From tmorris at ugs.com  Fri Feb  8 08:44:41 2008
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 07:44:41 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] test
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E204C315BE@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

...

 

---------------

Tim Morris

Systems Engineer

Siemens PLM Software Inc.

 



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb  8 08:57:50 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:57:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare? - obviated
In-Reply-To: <20080208113514.5201DC0C8@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165453@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	I had something similar happen under Linux while running VMWare
> hosting a Windows Server 2003 VM. On a whim, I recompiled the VMWare
> launcher, which you must do with every kernel upgrade otherwise VMWare will
> refuse to launch, and the problem simply disappeared.

 This is Windows hosting Windows, though. I have a separate physical Linux box.

 I found a good reference on running Windows from a physical partition under
Linux:

 http://news.u32.net/articles/2006/07/18/running-vmware-on-a-physical-partition

 However, before I could implement it, I discovered what was causing the problem
with VMWare. I have a Radeon 7000 in the Windows box, with dual-monitor support.
One video card, two monitors. I've run VMWare before, plenty of times, without
trouble, but I noticed when I was experimenting that if I started up VMWare and
locked the screen, it would run all night. As soon as I came in in the morning
and unlocked the screen, within a few minutes - bang. Dead box.

 So I upgraded to the latest ATI drivers (had to install .NET for the config
utility, can you believe that?) and it's been running fine for about 40 hours
now. So it looks like I won't need to repartition and such now. At least, for
*this* problem.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                  (313) 227-2317

 "[T]he U.S. film industry, in the midst of the worst box-office slump in
   20 years, looks for possible explanations as to why Americans are not
    flocking to movie theaters. In a totally unrelated development, The
  Adventures of Sharkboy and Lavagirl opens nationwide, to be followed in
 coming months by The Dukes of Hazzard and Deuce Bigalow, European Gigolo."
                             - Dave Barry
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb  8 08:58:02 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:58:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47AC5FEA.40807@hotpop.com>

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>  & runs squid.   
> 
> I had it set up so that eth0 was internal, and eth1 was external.  The
>  iptables example that I found that seemed to do what I wanted
>  had them switched, so I switched them.   Now for some reason, if the
>  internal network is working, I can't ping outside URLs.   I can change
>  the default gateway to be the external route, and then I can ping outside
>  URLs, but then the internal network stops working.    
> 
> Should it be easy to ping remote hosts on both the internal network and
>  the outside?

Everything *should* be easy.

Whether it *IS* easy or not is another question.




From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb  8 09:48:00 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 09:48:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.00.0802080824510.8879@geek.private.rrclark.net>
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.0802080824510.8879@geek.private.rrclark.net>
Message-ID: <47AC6BA0.9070700@ameritech.net>

Rich Clark wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:
> 
>> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>> & runs squid.

>>SNIP> 

> Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?
> 
> net.ipv4.ip_forward=1
> 
> Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set 
> to 0, change it to 1.

Don't you need to reboot for this to have any effect? Or atleast restart
networking? That's my general understanding of the files under /etc/.

Isn't there a similar flag under /var, like /var/run/<something> that
can do this on the fly?


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Fri Feb  8 10:36:53 2008
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:36:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <47AC6BA0.9070700@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <C3D1E145.587AB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

After editing sysctl.conf, running sysctl -p will make the changes active.
Echoing the values into the appropriate files in /proc will have the same
effect.  

Also note that having more than one default gateway on a system can have
expected results.  A default gateway, as the name implies is a catchall.
Based on your setup, you should have two gateways defined: one to point at
your internal network (looks like 10.10.1.0/24) and your default gateway
should be the directroute.eda. entry from your routing table.  So something
like this:

Destination    Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth0
192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth0
169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 eth1
10.10.1.0       alpine11        255.255.255.0   UG    0      0        0 eth1
default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth0

The other thing to consider is that you do not even need a router for your
internal network if your entire internal network is flat (on the same
subnet).

Greg


On 2/8/08 9:48 AM, "Raymond McLaughlin" <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:

> Rich Clark wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>>> & runs squid.
> 
>>> SNIP> 
> 
>> Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?
>> 
>> net.ipv4.ip_forward=1
>> 
>> Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set
>> to 0, change it to 1.
> 
> Don't you need to reboot for this to have any effect? Or atleast restart
> networking? That's my general understanding of the files under /etc/.
> 
> Isn't there a similar flag under /var, like /var/run/<something> that
> can do this on the fly?
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb  7 22:27:19 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 22:27:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] Re: openSUSE Boxed Editions]
Message-ID: <47ABCC17.5020604@hotpop.com>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [opensuse] Re: openSUSE Boxed Editions
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 00:11:11 +0100
From: Hans Witvliet <hwit at a-domani.nl>
To: opensuse at opensuse.org
References: 
<33d293f80801121317p17debc65t9a6b13acbd37e18f at mail.gmail.com>	 
<47AA0FC7.2030702 at hotpop.com> <200802071354.04867.sh at suse.de>	 
<200802071451.36390.thomas.schraitle at suse.de> 
<47AB32A6.4050406 at dodin.org>

On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 17:32 +0100, jdd wrote:
> Thomas Schraitle a ?crit :
> 
> > documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of
> > minor importance for most. ;)
> 
> no, but it's almost impossible to fix a printed book :-) and the next 
> one is different, so fixing it is not possible either...
> 

Well, it depends....

Some time ago i send a bug report to the guys from QNX.
A lot of nice features were not working as extensively described in
their manuals....

A month later a got a update from Canada:
Not new software, but a new set of manuals in which they removed all the
pages I referenced.

One way of "resolving issues".




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb  8 12:24:03 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:24:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <C3D1E145.587AB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C3D1E145.587AB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <47AC9033.7090607@arb.net>

In the classic sense "Duel homed" would refer to both interfaces being 
world facing with world routable addresses - Like if you had one on DSL 
and the other on a cable modem with another provider. In your case, you 
appear to be talking about a gateway host between an inside non-world 
routable network (like 10.x.x.x) and the outside world.  If this is the 
case, Greg is describing what you need to do - one default route on your 
outside interface.

The first one of these I setup was on kernel 1.12.22 and you had to 
compile 1.12.1 and apply patches one by one to get to .22 . Oh the bad 
old days :-)
-dave

Wojtak, Greg wrote:

>After editing sysctl.conf, running sysctl -p will make the changes active.
>Echoing the values into the appropriate files in /proc will have the same
>effect.  
>
>Also note that having more than one default gateway on a system can have
>expected results.  A default gateway, as the name implies is a catchall.
>Based on your setup, you should have two gateways defined: one to point at
>your internal network (looks like 10.10.1.0/24) and your default gateway
>should be the directroute.eda. entry from your routing table.  So something
>like this:
>
>Destination    Gateway         Genmask         Flags Metric Ref    Use Iface
>host-130-16-128 alpine11        255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth1
>10.10.1.0       directroute.eda 255.255.255.255 UGH   0      0        0 eth0
>192.9.70.0      *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth1
>10.10.1.0       *               255.255.255.0   U     0      0        0 eth0
>169.254.0.0     *               255.255.0.0     U     0      0        0 eth1
>10.10.1.0       alpine11        255.255.255.0   UG    0      0        0 eth1
>default         directroute.eda 0.0.0.0         UG    0      0        0 eth0
>
>The other thing to consider is that you do not even need a router for your
>internal network if your entire internal network is flat (on the same
>subnet).
>
>Greg
>
>
>On 2/8/08 9:48 AM, "Raymond McLaughlin" <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Rich Clark wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>>>>& runs squid.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>SNIP> 
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?
>>>
>>>net.ipv4.ip_forward=1
>>>
>>>Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set
>>>to 0, change it to 1.
>>>      
>>>
>>Don't you need to reboot for this to have any effect? Or atleast restart
>>networking? That's my general understanding of the files under /etc/.
>>
>>Isn't there a similar flag under /var, like /var/run/<something> that
>>can do this on the fly?
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From admin at linuxtechdaily.com  Fri Feb  8 12:36:59 2008
From: admin at linuxtechdaily.com (Rich Hughes)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:36:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
References: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47AC933B.4080703@linuxtechdaily.com>

AT&T probably blocks port 25. I have their U-verse service, and they do 
for that. They just need to switch to port 587. I use port 26.

Take care,
Rich H

Duane Brown wrote:
> My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound 
> business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I 
> believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.
>
> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error 
> something like "communications error on port 25".
>
> I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of knowledge 
> in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS environment with less than a 
> handful of machines. I'm guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they 
> can share the connection.
>
> I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.
>
> If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll forward your 
> information to my niece.
>
> I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put them in 
> touch with someone who can get this fixed with out wasting their time.
>
> Duane
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb  8 12:53:13 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:53:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <20080208113340.BE023C0C0@impelind.com>
References: <20080208113340.BE023C0C0@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47AC9709.3030109@arb.net>

If this is the case, be sure to get AT&T to setup your reverse DNS for 
your email server's IP address - you will have to have the forward DNS 
for this IP address setup already or they will not do the reverse. This 
will keep many of your messages from being blocked as "residential" 
(Bot-ed WIN spammer).

-dave

Robert Adkins wrote:

>Do they host their own internal Email server or do they access one outside
>of their building via an outside webhost?
>
>We utilize AT&T Business DSL, we host our own internal email server with all
>incoming/outgoing email on our own equipment. The business service includes
>5 outside IP Addresses that are on permanent lease to our account.
>
>The solution to the problem you describe depends upon how they send/receive
>email.
>
>If it is an inhouse email server, I would take a look at their router,
>assuming that their inhouse email server worked fine with their previous
>ISP.
>
>If it is an outside server, then they are probably being blocked somewhere
>in AT&T's network, probably as a measure to combat spam, if they are setup
>with a dynamic "residential" class DSL. Which means a lengthy telephone
>conversation with AT&T's Level 1 support people, before being pushed to
>Level 2 for another lengthy conversation before possibly being given a
>number to their network routing team for another lengthy conversation that
>should provide some resolution. 
>
>	-Rob
>
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
>>[mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Duane Brown
>>Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:41 PM
>>To: mug - discuss; MDLUG's main mailing list
>>Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
>>
>>My niece works for a company that is having problems with 
>>their outbound business email. They need some help getting it 
>>straightened out. I believe it is directly related to a 
>>change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.
>>
>>They can receive email fine but when they send they get an 
>>error something like "communications error on port 25".
>>
>>I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of 
>>knowledge in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS 
>>environment with less than a handful of machines. I'm 
>>guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they can share the 
>>connection.
>>
>>I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.
>>
>>If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll 
>>forward your information to my niece.
>>
>>I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put 
>>them in touch with someone who can get this fixed with out 
>>wasting their time.
>>
>>Duane
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Fri Feb  8 15:45:23 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:45:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] dual homed and dual default routes?
In-Reply-To: <47AC6BA0.9070700@ameritech.net>
References: <996808.46170.qm@web81806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.1.00.0802080824510.8879@geek.private.rrclark.net>
	<47AC6BA0.9070700@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.00.0802081540580.11772@geek.private.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:

> Rich Clark wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, I am trying to create a dual homed machine, that routes packets,
>>> & runs squid.
>
>>> SNIP>
>
>> Do you have the following line in /etc/sysctl.conf?
>>
>> net.ipv4.ip_forward=1
>>
>> Check that first, as it's the most likely problem. If you do and it's set
>> to 0, change it to 1.
>
> Don't you need to reboot for this to have any effect? Or atleast restart
> networking? That's my general understanding of the files under /etc/.

Execute as root 'sysctl -p /etc/sysctl.conf' for immediate changes to take 
effect. If you do change or add the line to sysctl.conf, they become 
permanent.

> Isn't there a similar flag under /var, like /var/run/<something> that
> can do this on the fly?

Nah, easiest I know if is as above.


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb  8 20:34:39 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:34:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Meeting Saturday (Tomorrow) Pat Bake presenter
Message-ID: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>

MDLUGers,

MDLUG meeting 12:30 tomorrow. See website <mdlug.org> for location details.

Pat Baker has stepped into the breach and will be doing a presentation
on openVPN and, time allowing tor.

We hope to see you there.

Raymond McLaughlin
President MDLUG


From jjsalens at typotech.net  Fri Feb  8 20:34:14 2008
From: jjsalens at typotech.net (Jesse J. Salens)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:34:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email configuration problem
In-Reply-To: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
References: <47ABCF69.9020705@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47AD0316.2080600@typotech.net>

If they use an outside mail service, such as a hosting provider, AT&T 
blocks port 25 by default. You can request to be unblocked through their 
abuse reporting page:

http://helpme.att.net/servabuse.php

Just select "**Opt out port 25" from the Abuse type.

-Jesse

Duane Brown wrote:
> My niece works for a company that is having problems with their outbound 
> business email. They need some help getting it straightened out. I 
> believe it is directly related to a change in their ISP to AT&T DSL.
>
> They can receive email fine but when they send they get an error 
> something like "communications error on port 25".
>
> I am assuming this is configuration issue (showing my lack of knowledge 
> in this area). This is a mixed Apple and MS environment with less than a 
> handful of machines. I'm guessing they have a Cable/DSL router so they 
> can share the connection.
>
> I think they are north east of Detroit, like the St Clair Shores area.
>
> If you're interested in helping them out, email me and I'll forward your 
> information to my niece.
>
> I could probably muddle my way through it but I'd rather put them in 
> touch with someone who can get this fixed with out wasting their time.
>
> Duane
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Sat Feb  9 09:23:29 2008
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:23:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
Message-ID: <4292224.1202567009750.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hi,

I am trying to change the resolution in my laptop display (SuSE 10.1 on Dell Latitude D820). When I open sax2, I see two display information. On the top it says

Nvidia GEForce GO 7400

Monitor-> LCD 1024x768&70HZ

with 'Options' and 'Change' button. The Change button allows for changing resolution and frequency, Below that is a pull down for 'Resolution' and 'Colors' (currently set at 1280x800 and 16M). I changed the one at the bottom for a different resolution. What is the one at top? How do I find out / change the current refresh frequency?

When I connect this laptop to a HD TV, I get hazy characters. I presume this has something to do with the current refresh rate

Thanks for any help.

Raj

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sat Feb  9 09:43:04 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:43:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu and Run levels
Message-ID: <47ADBBF8.5030201@ameritech.net>

A couple of months age there was some discussion on another list about
Ubuntu and run level control. I complained that run level 3 did give
just a text login like I thought it should. There were several
replies which, on closer examination, were not completely correct.

One of my findings was that you could select runlevel 3 at boot and the
system would still boot as it always did. *Even after you had completely
deleted the directory /etc/rc3.d!* I was gathering more such findings
for a more detailed post, and this got pushed to the back burner...

This article <http://www.linux.com/feature/125977> explains a lot.
It seems that with Feisty Fawn Ubuntu has started to transition away
from the SysV init scheme to something called "initng". Ah! Something
new to learn. Sounds interesting. I wonder if I'll like it.

Raymond McLaughlin


From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb  9 11:33:32 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 11:33:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Meeting Saturday (Tomorrow) Pat Bake presenter
In-Reply-To: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> MDLUGers,
>
> MDLUG meeting 12:30 tomorrow. See website <mdlug.org> for location details.
>
> Pat Baker has stepped into the breach and will be doing a presentation
> on openVPN and, time allowing tor.
>
> We hope to see you there.
>
>
>   

Doesn't look like I;m making it this month. 

Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
the web. 

So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
any weird distro in my folder.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From carl at carltm.com  Sat Feb  9 13:04:42 2008
From: carl at carltm.com (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 13:04:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] checking settings on domains
Message-ID: <58045.70.136.184.6.1202580282.squirrel@www.carltm.com>

There is a new website that lets you check the settings for
a domain.  The URL is <http://www.intodns.com>.  Just fill
in the domain name, click "Report" and hope to see lots of
green check marks.

c





From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 14:32:14 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:32:14 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu and Run levels
In-Reply-To: <47ADBBF8.5030201@ameritech.net>
References: <47ADBBF8.5030201@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802091132y4391e105q1c57fd56519a06bc@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 6:43 AM, Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
> This article <http://www.linux.com/feature/125977> explains a lot.
> It seems that with Feisty Fawn Ubuntu has started to transition away
> from the SysV init scheme to something called "initng". Ah! Something
> new to learn. Sounds interesting. I wonder if I'll like it.

It's called 'upstart', iirc...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  9 14:33:53 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 11:33:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you have
	a static IP address)
Message-ID: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"

register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that is not the case.

Is there a place that I can register my ".com"? 

David


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb  9 14:36:54 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 14:36:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] checking settings on domains
In-Reply-To: <58045.70.136.184.6.1202580282.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
References: <58045.70.136.184.6.1202580282.squirrel@www.carltm.com>
Message-ID: <47AE00D6.9020104@arb.net>

Thanks Carl - Good find.

-dave

Carl T. Miller wrote:

>There is a new website that lets you check the settings for
>a domain.  The URL is <http://www.intodns.com>.  Just fill
>in the domain name, click "Report" and hope to see lots of
>green check marks.
>
>c
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb  9 14:40:06 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 14:40:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you
 have	a static IP address)
In-Reply-To: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47AE0196.2030801@arb.net>

Be careful about the fine print for a "free" service. ALL registrars pay 
something to register a domain. I've know some people who thought they 
are getting a nearly free registration and it was a marketing scam.

-dave

David Lane wrote:

>I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"
>
>register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that is not the case.
>
>Is there a place that I can register my ".com"? 
>
>David
>
>
>      ____________________________________________________________________________________
>Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 15:21:51 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:21:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Free Tax service
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091221y409c31ddx6ae551c41e6945d0@mail.gmail.com>

Just discovered this free TurboTax filing option from Intuit:
http://turbotax.intuit.com/system_requirements_check.jhtml?productid=512

I didn't complete the filing but it seems to work with Firefox on
Linux in spite of the warning.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 15:33:13 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:33:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you
	have a static IP address)
In-Reply-To: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091233n6f49b0a8yb7a324b1815dd40a@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 2:33 PM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"
>
> register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that is not the case.
>
> Is there a place that I can register my ".com"?

Some useful info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_name_registrar

Probably no free ones available.  At a minimum it would be bundled
with other services you would have to pay for.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 15:58:35 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:58:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Converting Windows box to Linux+VMWare?
In-Reply-To: <20080208113514.5201DC0C8@impelind.com>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E03716544F@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<20080208113514.5201DC0C8@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091258h7f2f9cfel8a204ff57b51747b@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 8, 2008 6:36 AM, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>         I have heard that VMWare can hose the heck out of network drivers on
> both Windows and Linux, if you setup the client to provide network
> capability to the virtual machines. I never had a reason to have network
> access for the VM I was running, so I am unable to verify this rumor. I
> would look into that before running into networking with VMWare.

I've always had networking for XP in VMware Player.  It's been quite a
while since I've had any problems with it.  Usually it's caused by
major network reconfiguration but you just have to run
/usr/bin/vmware-config-network.pl to fix it.  On my laptop I switch
between various networks all the time and don't have any problems
under Ubuntu.


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb  9 15:59:15 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Sat,  9 Feb 2008 15:59:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
In-Reply-To: <4292224.1202567009750.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	(rkannan@peoplepc.com)
References: <4292224.1202567009750.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20080209205915.60F5115EA04@starfox.local>

Raj,

> ... When I open sax2, I see two display information.
> On the top it says with 'Options' and 'Change' button.
> The Change button allows for changing resolution and frequency, ...

<IIRC>
I believe this is your current graphics card and monitor selection.
You can enable/disable features of your graphics card.
You can choose from among multiple monitors (if you have more than one).
</IIRC>

> Below that is a pull down for 'Resolution' and 'Colors' ...

These are the modelines found by SaX2,
from which you can choose a default.
I don't believe SaX2 providees support for multiple modes.

> ... How do I find out / change the current refresh frequency?

Interpret the report from SaX2 (top window) as
   <width>x<height>&<frequency>

> Monitor-> LCD 1024x768&70HZ

1024 pixels wide by 768 pixels high by 70Hz refresh frequency

> When I connect this laptop to a HD TV, I get hazy characters.
> I presume this has something to do with the current refresh rate

Probably.  You need to match your TV requirements.
See the TV manual for the resolution and refresh rate requirements.

If you are not using choked cable,
you may also be picking up interference.

If you are using the EPAL (a.k.a. NTSC, TV) output from your laptop,
be advised that the analog modulators and demodulators are usually
of low quality, especially trying to operate at other than 700x525x60Hz.

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Bob

  "I think computer viruses should count as life.
   I think it says something about human nature,
   that the only form of life we have created so far,
   is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image."
     -- Stephen Hawking



From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 16:26:22 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 16:26:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you
	have a static IP address)
In-Reply-To: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802091326k11f33730h26b21c984224c11e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 2:33 PM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"
>
> register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that
> is not the case.
>
> Is there a place that I can register my ".com"?
>
> David
>
>
>
>  ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


I've used ZoneEdit for years without having to pay anything and have had
zero problems with them.  They're great if you only have a couple of domain
names.

http://www.zoneedit.com


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 16:29:54 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 16:29:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Free Tax service
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802091221y409c31ddx6ae551c41e6945d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90802091221y409c31ddx6ae551c41e6945d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802091329u1bedec8aq526a9ae3a99ee11e@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 9, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just discovered this free TurboTax filing option from Intuit:
> http://turbotax.intuit.com/system_requirements_check.jhtml?productid=512
>
> I didn't complete the filing but it seems to work with Firefox on
> Linux in spite of the warning.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

It works just fine.  My taxes are filed through TurboTax using Firefox on
Linux.

Clinton


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Sat Feb  9 18:02:27 2008
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 18:02:27 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
Message-ID: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Thanks Dr. Meier but...
-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Meier <list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net>
>Sent: Feb 9, 2008 3:59 PM
>To: mdlug at mdlug.org
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] sax2 question
>
>Raj,
>
>> ... When I open sax2, I see two display information.
>> On the top it says with 'Options' and 'Change' button.
>> The Change button allows for changing resolution and frequency, ...
>
><IIRC>
>I believe this is your current graphics card and monitor selection.
>You can enable/disable features of your graphics card.
>You can choose from among multiple monitors (if you have more than one).
></IIRC>
>
>> Below that is a pull down for 'Resolution' and 'Colors' ...
>
>These are the modelines found by SaX2,
>from which you can choose a default.
>I don't believe SaX2 providees support for multiple modes.
>
>> ... How do I find out / change the current refresh frequency?
>
>Interpret the report from SaX2 (top window) as
>   <width>x<height>&<frequency>
>
>> Monitor-> LCD 1024x768&70HZ
>
>1024 pixels wide by 768 pixels high by 70Hz refresh frequency

I got that much but why are there two sets of values the one at the top says 1024x763 at 60 and the pull down at the bottom says 1280x800. When I changed the pne at the bottom, it changed the resolution of my display. So what is the one at the top.
>
>> When I connect this laptop to a HD TV, I get hazy characters.
>> I presume this has something to do with the current refresh rate
>
>Probably.  You need to match your TV requirements.
>See the TV manual for the resolution and refresh rate requirements.
>
>If you are not using choked cable,
>you may also be picking up interference.

My TV apparently can go as high as 1024x768 at 70 HZ. When I set this in Windoze the display was fine but the Linux display is hazy (not sharp) at any  resolution.

>
>If you are using the EPAL (a.k.a. NTSC, TV) output from your laptop,
>be advised that the analog modulators and demodulators are usually
>of low quality, especially trying to operate at other than 700x525x60Hz.

I have a VGA (15 pin) input in my TV which is what I am connecting to.
>
>Hopefully helpful,
>-- 
>Bob
>
>  "I think computer viruses should count as life.
>   I think it says something about human nature,
>   that the only form of life we have created so far,
>   is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image."
>     -- Stephen Hawking
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 18:47:53 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 15:47:53 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
In-Reply-To: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802091547y1b473dcev122c43b09a2fdbaa@mail.gmail.com>

http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_Xorg_HDTV
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sat Feb  9 19:20:40 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:20:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>

Garry Stahl wrote:

> Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
> the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
> the web. 
> 
> So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
> any weird distro in my folder.

Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sat Feb  9 19:24:18 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:24:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu and Run levels
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802091132y4391e105q1c57fd56519a06bc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47ADBBF8.5030201@ameritech.net>
	<fe37588d0802091132y4391e105q1c57fd56519a06bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AE4432.9010204@ameritech.net>

Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 6:43 AM, Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
>> This article <http://www.linux.com/feature/125977> explains a lot.
>> It seems that with Feisty Fawn Ubuntu has started to transition away
>> from the SysV init scheme to something called "initng". Ah! Something
>> new to learn. Sounds interesting. I wonder if I'll like it.
> 
> It's called 'upstart', iirc...

You are correct, initng was for Debian. I quickly looked back at the
article while posting and picked out the wrong alternative.


From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Sat Feb  9 19:45:48 2008
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:45:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>

On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 19:20 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Garry Stahl wrote:
> 
> > Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
> > the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
> > the web. 
> > 
> > So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
> > any weird distro in my folder.
> 
> Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.
> _______________________________________________

CentOS - http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=15

Knoppix - http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 21:13:08 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 21:13:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 7:45 PM, Mathew Enders <mathew.enders at prodigy.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 19:20 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> > Garry Stahl wrote:
> >
> > > Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
> > > the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
> > > the web.
> > >
> > > So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
> > > any weird distro in my folder.
> >
> > Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.
> > _______________________________________________
>
> CentOS - http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=15
>
> Knoppix - http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
>

Don't forget Gentoo.  Do you think Darth Beemer could handle producing
an up-to-date version on the fly by downloading the sources,
compiling, and writing the bins to the CD/DVD in real-time?  :D


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb  9 21:46:14 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Sat,  9 Feb 2008 21:46:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] sax2 question
In-Reply-To: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	(rkannan@peoplepc.com)
References: <20047190.1202598148037.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20080210024614.5A885127C8C@starfox.local>

R,

I'm sorry I was too concise before.

X encapsulates timing information, resolution, refresh frequency,
and other information in a data structure called a Modeline.
Each Modeline is addressed by a name, called a Mode,
which is usually the <width>x<height>@<frequency>.

xorg.conf specifications are grouped into named sections.
The Monitor section(s) contain information about the attached
video hardware, including the Modes it supports.
The Device section(s) contain information about the installed
graphics cards, including Modes it supports (timing limits).
The Screen sections(s) contain information about the
mapping of Devices to Monitors, run-time selectable Modes, ...

Online registries hold prewritten sections addressed by
ModelName and Driver respectively.
For generic monitors, the ModelName is usually the highest supported Mode.
For generic cards, the Driver is usually the chipset and key features.

SaX2 comes with a directory /usr/share/sax/api/data from
which it can unpack a large registry of Monitor and Device
sections for popular graphics cards and video display hardware.



To display properly, a Mode must be simultaneously compatible
with all your graphics cards and all your monitors is use.

There are usually several (typically ~20) Modes that will work.

Most people only want a "full-size", and "zoom" Mode.
Many laptop users want a few Modes compatible with VGA projectors
they use.

In xorg.conf, you specify a default "full-size" Mode and
your chosen alternate Modes.
At run-time, you can usually cycle through these alternate Modes
without restarting your session using \M-\C-\N+ (alt-ctl-numpad+).

See xorg.conf(5) for further details.



> ... why are there two sets of values [displayed by SaX2]
> the one at the top says 1024x763 at 60 and the pull down
> at the bottom says 1280x800.

The Card: Driver identifies the Device section that SaX2 will save.

The Monitor: ModelName identifies the Device section that SaX2 will save.

When you start SaX2, the Card: Driver and Monitor: ModelName are
discovered from your xorg.conf file, probing the monitor and
graphics card, from the registry, ...
These represent SaX2's recommended safe settings.
The Monitor: ModelName is usually generic, the current Mode.

See /usr/share/doc/packages/sax2/sax.pdf for further details.



> When I changed the [one] at the bottom,
> it changed the resolution of my display.

The Properties at the bottom are the Modes that SaX2 thinks
might be compatible with your monitor and graphics card.
They were discovered in your xorg.conf, SaX2's data, ...
and SaX2 found no reason to eliminate them.

Each time you select a Resolution and Colors, type [OK],
test, and [Save], SaX2 adds that Mode to the list of usable
Modes in the Screen section that SaX2 will save.
When SaX2 adds a Mode, it usually removes Modes with higher resolution.
Most people save Modes in increasing resolution order.

See /usr/share/doc/packages/sax2/sax.pdf for details.



> So what is the one at the top[?]

  o Monitor section selected that SaX2 will write

  and also
  o at startup, SaX2's recommendation
  o at startup, usually current default (full-size) resolution
  o menu for users with multiple monitors
  o usually the X startup Mode that SaX2 will write

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Bob

  "What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well."
     -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery



From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb  9 22:49:35 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2008 22:49:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AE744F.3030802@comcast.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Feb 9, 2008 7:45 PM, Mathew Enders <mathew.enders at prodigy.net> wrote:
>   
>> On Sat, 2008-02-09 at 19:20 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
>>     
>>> Garry Stahl wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Progress on Darth Beemer for the club burn box is coming along.  I have
>>>> the larger hard drive installed.  I need to start downloading ISOs form
>>>> the web.
>>>>
>>>> So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,
>>>> any weird distro in my folder.
>>>>         
>>> Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>       
>> CentOS - http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=15
>>
>> Knoppix - http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html
>>
>>     
>
> Don't forget Gentoo.  Do you think Darth Beemer could handle producing
> an up-to-date version on the fly by downloading the sources,
> compiling, and writing the bins to the CD/DVD in real-time?  :D
>   

Let me get a little more ram and you can set it up.  It's a 1.8 gig
processor with currently 320 meg of ram.  1 gig max.  (Ddram 2100 BTW.) 
As to download on the fly we are talking the school network.  I don't
think so.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 22:59:27 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 22:59:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47AE744F.3030802@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AE744F.3030802@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802091959k33dd69a9kce0a453cfea3c7ae@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 10:49 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Let me get a little more ram and you can set it up.  It's a 1.8 gig
> processor with currently 320 meg of ram.  1 gig max.  (Ddram 2100 BTW.)
> As to download on the fly we are talking the school network.  I don't
> think so.

I was joking.  To compile on the fly would require a cluster running distcc.


From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Feb  9 23:40:09 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 23:40:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>

On Feb 9, 2008 7:45 PM, Mathew Enders <mathew.enders at prodigy.net> wrote:
>>> Garry Stahl wrote:
>>>> So far the list include:  openSUSE, Unbuntu, Debian, Fedora Core, DSL,

"Fedora Core" is no more. It's called just "Fedora" now, since version 7.

>>> Don't forget Kubuntu, and my second favorite SimplyMepis.
>>
>> CentOS - http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=15

CentOS is definitely worth checking out. I just installed the x86_64
version of CentOS 5.1 on my new AMD64-based mobo, and it's been great.

Slackware is another one to try. I've got 12.0 on a spare machine and
it seems pretty good.

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb  9 23:59:30 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 23:59:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 9, 2008 11:40 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> "Fedora Core" is no more. It's called just "Fedora" now, since version 7.
>
> CentOS is definitely worth checking out. I just installed the x86_64
> version of CentOS 5.1 on my new AMD64-based mobo, and it's been great.
>
> Slackware is another one to try. I've got 12.0 on a spare machine and
> it seems pretty good.

Puppy is good for really old systems:
http://www.puppylinux.org/user/downloads.php


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 03:20:56 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 03:20:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080210031245.0289a290@pop.gmail.com>

     At the meeting I was told that the daemon controlling the sound 
card was most likely the
culprit in videos not playing sound. So I went looking for it in the 
Services GUI, and can't
find anything which could be that sound daemon. How do I find exactly 
which one to turn off?

     While we're at it, I've got firefox-2.0.0.12.tar.gz. There's a 
readme.txt, which refers me to
the Firefox download site. Clicking a link labeled "installation 
instructions" sends me to the
middle of that web page where some issues are discussed, but where no 
actual installation
instructions can be found. How does one install this tarball?

-----

   - Drew.



From carl at carltm.com  Sun Feb 10 09:18:16 2008
From: carl at carltm.com (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 09:18:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080210031245.0289a290@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20080210031245.0289a290@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21361.216.144.215.245.1202653096.squirrel@www.carltm.com>

Drew wrote:
>      At the meeting I was told that the daemon controlling the sound
> card was most likely the
> culprit in videos not playing sound. So I went looking for it in the
> Services GUI, and can't
> find anything which could be that sound daemon. How do I find exactly
> which one to turn off?

Drew, check out this picture of the various programs available to
process sound in Linux.

<http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/linuxaudio.png>

ESD and aRts are the two most common daemons, so check for them
first.  Next try running ps aux | cut -c66- > my_list.  Remove
everything from the list that you know isn't sound related and
look for names from linuxaudio.png.  If you still don't find it,
you might need to do a Google search for each unknown process.

c




From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 14:22:24 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:22:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MOFO (MOWFO) Mondays
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802101122y14f7dec7wb19869885684d0ce@mail.gmail.com>

There seemed to be some interest in this at yesterday's meeting, so
I'm posting it now.

Our SF fandom group, MOFO, meets each Monday at 8 p.m.  We alternate
between the Redford Grill (tomorrow's meeting) located on the
south-west corner of Beech-Daly and Five Mile Road and the Ram's Horn
(next week's meeting) on Dequindre just south of 13 Mile Road.

The con chair and several ConCom members of Penguicon attend on a
regular basis.  It's not ALL about science fiction, though it is a
focus -- we just have fun in general.  On a regular basis, we organize
a group to go to the Redford Theatre on Lahser north of Grand River --
I expect we will have a bunch at "The Blues Brothers" showing coming
soon.  We also have an entertaining Yahoo! Group.

MOWFO = Macomb-Oakland-Wayne Fandom Organization / MOFO = Michigan
Open Fandom Organization -- same group -- it's a long story...

~~ Michael Rudas


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 10 15:19:04 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:19:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
Message-ID: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>

Hello Everyone,
I just got my new (factory refurb) Thinkpad T61 and I allready have
problems. <sigh> It seems the new machines come with a hidden partition
that has a factory image on it that you can then use to reload the
original os. There are lots of how to's regarding leaving that
functionality in place and still have Linux work. I would like to
reclaim that space; 7GB in this case; to use. 
	Not knowing any of this, I loaded openSUSE 10.3 not really paying any
attention to the amount of disk space available. I simply partitioned
the available space, more than I've ever had. When it came time to boot
into the fresh install I got a "operating system not found". So I found
I hosed my rescue image; no big deal; but I still had a hidden partition
as well.
	I've gotten into the rescue system using openSUSE 10.3 dvd. I found the
disk label using fdisk -l, then ran fdisk /dev/sda. I deleted all
partitions from there with d, verified that with p which reports a 100GB
disk. Then used w to save and exit. Then I started the openSUSE install
again but when it came to the partitioning I still saw only 93GB
available.  I went back in with the rescue system to verify that I
indeed had saved the changes to the table and I saw a 100GB hd. Okay, so
then I found out about the hidden part. So I read more about GRUB and I
can unhide what is still hidden but I need to know what it's called.
That's where I am right now. I can't seem to get any further. I can't
seem to figure out how to find out what this hidden ?partition? is
called to unhide it so I can delete it. 
	I allready have XP disks on the way from Lenovo so I can then load it
into VMWare, and I still have XP disks and valid COA's from my other
boxes. I would really rather have the space! Any idea's?

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 10 15:42:34 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:42:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>

You can enter "expert" option with the SuSE install and have full 
control of the partition - that is how I would do it. It will still 
offer you suggestions in expert mode.

If you don't like that option, some times it is just quicker to boot 
with another OS boot disk and partition the entire drive as one and bail 
on the install after the partition table was written. Do you have 
another OS on disk ? 


-dave

Peter Bart wrote:

>Hello Everyone,
>I just got my new (factory refurb) Thinkpad T61 and I allready have
>problems. <sigh> It seems the new machines come with a hidden partition
>that has a factory image on it that you can then use to reload the
>original os. There are lots of how to's regarding leaving that
>functionality in place and still have Linux work. I would like to
>reclaim that space; 7GB in this case; to use. 
>	Not knowing any of this, I loaded openSUSE 10.3 not really paying any
>attention to the amount of disk space available. I simply partitioned
>the available space, more than I've ever had. When it came time to boot
>into the fresh install I got a "operating system not found". So I found
>I hosed my rescue image; no big deal; but I still had a hidden partition
>as well.
>	I've gotten into the rescue system using openSUSE 10.3 dvd. I found the
>disk label using fdisk -l, then ran fdisk /dev/sda. I deleted all
>partitions from there with d, verified that with p which reports a 100GB
>disk. Then used w to save and exit. Then I started the openSUSE install
>again but when it came to the partitioning I still saw only 93GB
>available.  I went back in with the rescue system to verify that I
>indeed had saved the changes to the table and I saw a 100GB hd. Okay, so
>then I found out about the hidden part. So I read more about GRUB and I
>can unhide what is still hidden but I need to know what it's called.
>That's where I am right now. I can't seem to get any further. I can't
>seem to figure out how to find out what this hidden ?partition? is
>called to unhide it so I can delete it. 
>	I allready have XP disks on the way from Lenovo so I can then load it
>into VMWare, and I still have XP disks and valid COA's from my other
>boxes. I would really rather have the space! Any idea's?
>
>Best Regards,
>  
>


From gib at juno.com  Sun Feb 10 16:16:02 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:16:02 GMT
Subject: [mdlug]  MOFO (MOWFO) Mondays
Message-ID: <20080210.161602.21829.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com>


Can you provide links to a web site or to the Yahoo group?

-- "Michael Rudas" <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
There seemed to be some interest in this at yesterday's meeting, so
I'm posting it now.

Our SF fandom group, MOFO, meets each Monday at 8 p.m.  We alternate
between the Redford Grill (tomorrow's meeting) located on the
south-west corner of Beech-Daly and Five Mile Road and the Ram's Horn
(next week's meeting) on Dequindre just south of 13 Mile Road.

The con chair and several ConCom members of Penguicon attend on a
regular basis.  It's not ALL about science fiction, though it is a
focus -- we just have fun in general.  On a regular basis, we organize
a group to go to the Redford Theatre on Lahser north of Grand River --
I expect we will have a bunch at "The Blues Brothers" showing coming
soon.  We also have an entertaining Yahoo! Group.

MOWFO = Macomb-Oakland-Wayne Fandom Organization / MOFO = Michigan
Open Fandom Organization -- same group -- it's a long story...

~~ Michael Rudas
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_____________________________________________________________
Click to find local singles for dating, romance and fun.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iif6R6BaPccu2DxkwRLszp3B2wXq6Atf9aaK7NPtUBO3aoMVO/




From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 10 16:26:07 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:26:07 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
Message-ID: <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:42:34 -0500
Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:

> You can enter "expert" option with the SuSE install and have full 
> control of the partition - that is how I would do it. It will still 
> offer you suggestions in expert mode.
> 
> If you don't like that option, some times it is just quicker to boot 
> with another OS boot disk and partition the entire drive as one and
> bail on the install after the partition table was written. Do you
> have another OS on disk ? 

	The expert option still has the same results, missing 7GB.
Same with any other OS.  I'm trying  to use fdisk to partition it now.

-- 
Peter The Plumber sm on the Road


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 10 16:48:00 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:48:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>  <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
Message-ID: <1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>


On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 16:26 -0500, Peter Bart wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 15:42:34 -0500
> Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
> 
> > You can enter "expert" option with the SuSE install and have full 
> > control of the partition - that is how I would do it. It will still 
> > offer you suggestions in expert mode.
> > 
> > If you don't like that option, some times it is just quicker to boot 
> > with another OS boot disk and partition the entire drive as one and
> > bail on the install after the partition table was written. Do you
> > have another OS on disk ? 
> 
> 	The expert option still has the same results, missing 7GB.
> Same with any other OS.  I'm trying  to use fdisk to partition it now.

	Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 17:44:57 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:44:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MOFO (MOWFO) Mondays
In-Reply-To: <20080210.161602.21829.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080210.161602.21829.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802101444i48577c40xf03a7285dba7109f@mail.gmail.com>

--- gib at juno.com wrote:

> --- "Michael Rudas" wrote:
>> Our SF fandom group, MOFO, meets each Monday at 8 p.m.  We alternate
>> between the Redford Grill (tomorrow's meeting) located on the
>> south-west corner of Beech-Daly and Five Mile Road and the Ram's Horn
>> (next week's meeting) on Dequindre just south of 13 Mile Road.

> Can you provide links to a web site or to the Yahoo group?

MOFO: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MOWFO>

My computer-club Group (OPCC): <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/opcc>

My Protopage (with Linux and F/OSS links prominent):
http://www.tinyurl.com/yk67hy

~~ Mikey


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 17:45:53 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:45:53 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802101445p272d827ex5fa308a700d27135@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 10, 2008 1:48 PM, Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net> wrote:
>         Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?

There is an option in many laptop BIOS to disable the hidden recovery
space made unavailable by certain implementations.  Look around.  I
think that is the answer to your question...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 18:10:55 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:10:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802101510r34c155e4ub2bdf15028411676@mail.gmail.com>

--- Peter Bart wrote:

> >       The expert option still has the same results, missing 7GB.
> > Same with any other OS.  I'm trying  to use fdisk to partition it now.
>         Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?

Have you tried blowing away the boot sector?  I use MBRWiz:
<http://www.mbrwizard.com> -- it can be used with a DOS boot-disk or
Linux.

~~ Mikey


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sun Feb 10 19:54:16 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:54:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>

Peter Bart wrote:

> 	Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?
> 
> Best Regards,

Before you knock yourself out looking for a phantom partition, have you
considered that sometimes
  100GB = 100*1000*1000*1000 = 100,000,000,000B
and some times
   93GB =  93*1024*1024*1024 =  99,857,989,632B
which rounds to 99.9GB or 100GB when counted the first way?



From jjsalens at typotech.net  Sun Feb 10 20:28:32 2008
From: jjsalens at typotech.net (Jesse J. Salens)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:28:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802101445p272d827ex5fa308a700d27135@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<fe37588d0802101445p272d827ex5fa308a700d27135@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AFA4C0.2070500@typotech.net>



Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2008 1:48 PM, Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net> wrote:
>   
>>         Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
>> last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
>> found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
>> allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
>> available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?
>>     
>
> There is an option in many laptop BIOS to disable the hidden recovery
> space made unavailable by certain implementations.  Look around.  I
> think that is the answer to your question...
>   

I had a Z60m model and there was definitely an option to disabled the 
recovery partition in the bios. I don't remember the exact steps, but 
this is likely where you need to look prior to partitioning.

Jesse


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 10 20:33:12 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:33:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>

This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:

http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml

Better patch your machines, pronto!

Michael


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 10 20:42:53 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:42:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>

Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto 
update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now 
working on mine.

-dave

Michael Corral wrote:

>This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
>
>http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml
>
>Better patch your machines, pronto!
>
>Michael
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 10 20:53:24 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:53:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
> Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
> update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
> working on mine.

What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
Yikes!

Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
1. Download <http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
4. Try do do some root stuff.

Michael

>> This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
>>
>> http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml


From jjsalens at typotech.net  Sun Feb 10 21:45:03 2008
From: jjsalens at typotech.net (Jesse J. Salens)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:45:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47AFB6AF.8080402@typotech.net>

7

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
>   
>> Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
>> update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
>> working on mine.
>>     
>
> What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
> At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
> get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
> I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
> Yikes!
>
> Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
> 1. Download <http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
> 2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
> 3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
> 4. Try do do some root stuff.
>
> Michael
>
>   
>>> This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
>>>
>>> http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml
>>>       
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

It didn't work on my Fedora 8 box the first time, just caused a kernel 
oops and syslogd spit up on my screen. The second time I compiled and 
ran it, I was given a root prompt.

-Jesse


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 21:48:13 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:48:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
wrote:

> This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
>
> http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml
>
> Better patch your machines, pronto!
>
> Michael
>


I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter has
to do a couple of things first:

1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your machine
remotely.

If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've got problems.

Just an observation,
Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 10 21:52:07 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:52:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47AFB6AF.8080402@typotech.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFB6AF.8080402@typotech.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102148460.5717@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-10, Monsieur Jesse J. Salens a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
>> 1. Download <http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
>> 2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
>> 3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
>> 4. Try to do some root stuff.
>
> It didn't work on my Fedora 8 box the first time, just caused a kernel
> oops and syslogd spit up on my screen. The second time I compiled and
> ran it, I was given a root prompt.

Yeah, there have been reports of that exploit having different effects,
from kernel oops to system crashes to root prompts, on various distros
with various kernels. None of the effects are good. :(

Michael


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 21:53:30 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:53:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
wrote:

> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
> > Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
> > update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
> > working on mine.
>
> What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
> At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
> get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
> I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
> Yikes!
>
> Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
> 1. Download <
> http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
> 2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
> 3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
> 4. Try do do some root stuff.
>

I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess that's a
good thing?

(running Gentoo stable)

Clinton


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 10 21:56:42 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:56:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102152470.5796@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-10, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter has
> to do a couple of things first:
>
> 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
> machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
> 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your machine
> remotely.
>
> If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've got problems.

This is a *local* root exploit. I take it you didn't actually read the
link I gave. ;)

There *are* legitimate multi-user Linux machines out there, by the way.

Michael


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 22:07:44 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:07:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102152470.5796@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102152470.5796@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802101907t4f24cc3bmf535fd67642be351@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
wrote:

> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> > I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter
> has
> > to do a couple of things first:
> >
> > 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
> > machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
> > 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your
> machine
> > remotely.
> >
> > If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've got
> problems.
>
> This is a *local* root exploit. I take it you didn't actually read the
> link I gave. ;)
>
> There *are* legitimate multi-user Linux machines out there, by the way.
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


You gave a slashdot link, where RTFA isn't required!  :)

I've tried two different systems using the instructions provided in another
message:  my Gentoo desktop and my Debian VPS server.  Slashdot's link to
proof of concept code won't compile on either system, and the concept code
provided in another message compiles on my Debian VPS but doesn't work.
Kind of a bummer I guess, I still haven't gotten my hands on a working Linux
exploit so that I can fully understand and learn how it works.

I used to do that with boot and .exe viruses back in the day.   Figuring out
the assembly was a challenge yet fun.

Clinton


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 10 22:08:22 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:08:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net> <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>


On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 19:54 -0500, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> > 	Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> > last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> > found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> > allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> > available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> 
> Before you knock yourself out looking for a phantom partition, have you
> considered that sometimes
>   100GB = 100*1000*1000*1000 = 100,000,000,000B
> and some times
>    93GB =  93*1024*1024*1024 =  99,857,989,632B
> which rounds to 99.9GB or 100GB when counted the first way?

	Yes I did think of that but since I can't boot anything despite
successfully installing openSUSE, and the references here
<http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-46088.html> describing
just exactly what I did.
	There should be some sort of option in the BIOS; yes it's been updated;
to disable the recovery partition but I haven't seen it. I've been
through the BIOS so many times I'm going to dream about it. I then found
this
<http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/Hardware/Clean_Hard_Drive_zero_fill> which promises to wipe a hard drive. That didn't do it either. Which would seem to prove that some partition is still protected?

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 10 22:11:47 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:11:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>



Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

>On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>  
>
>>2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
>>    
>>
>>>Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
>>>update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
>>>working on mine.
>>>      
>>>
>>What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
>>At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
>>get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
>>I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
>>Yikes!
>>
>>Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
>>1. Download <
>>http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
>>2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
>>3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
>>4. Try do do some root stuff.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess that's a
>good thing?
>
>(running Gentoo stable)
>
>Clinton
>
>  
>
Try it again Clinton - I got that the first time too. Second time I got 
a root prompt.

It is a big deal if you have other users on your system that have a shell.

-dave


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 22:39:53 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:39:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
Message-ID: <225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>

Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
turned off?)

On Feb 10, 2008 10:11 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:

>
>
> Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
>
> >On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
> >>>update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
> >>>working on mine.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
> >>At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
> >>get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
> >>I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
> >>Yikes!
> >>
> >>Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
> >>1. Download <
> >>http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
> >>2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
> >>3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
> >>4. Try do do some root stuff.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess
> that's a
> >good thing?
> >
> >(running Gentoo stable)
> >
> >Clinton
> >
> >
> >
> Try it again Clinton - I got that the first time too. Second time I got
> a root prompt.
>
> It is a big deal if you have other users on your system that have a shell.
>
> -dave
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sun Feb 10 22:40:34 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:40:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	(cvweiss@gmail.com)
Message-ID: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>

Clinton,

> I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.
> I guess that's a good thing?

In the sense that it stopped you from testing for the vulnerability,
it is a bad thing.
The fact that the compiler could not compile the source code,
is unrelated to whether or not your kernel has the bug.

If you were told that your home furnace might have a defect that risked
explosion and were mailed a device to test the furnace,
the fact that you didn't have the right size batteries for the test
device would not be reason to believe your furnace is without the
defect.

What the compiler error?
  Was it a link error?
    Missing library?

After compiling and executing the exploit, I could not read root files.
My SuSE kernel does not have the feature reportedly exploited.

The game is afoot
-- 
Bob

  "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
    -- Sherlock Holmes a.k.a. Arthur Conan Doyle


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sun Feb 10 22:46:47 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:46:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
References: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47AFC527.9060909@ameritech.net>

Robert Meier wrote:
> 
> After compiling and executing the exploit, I could not read root files.
> My SuSE kernel does not have the feature reportedly exploited.

How did you determine this?
Does this exploit have to be compiled on the same system as it is to
run, or against the same header files, or just with the same library
versions?



From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 10 23:20:40 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 20:20:40 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 10, 2008 7:39 PM, Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
> turned off?)

It doesn't matter -- su/sudo makes no difference.  You are given id=0...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Mon Feb 11 00:00:43 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:00:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47AFC527.9060909@ameritech.net> (message from Raymond McLaughlin
	on Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:46:47 -0500)
References: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
	<47AFC527.9060909@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20080211050043.77395127C75@starfox.local>

Ray,

>> After compiling and executing the exploit, I could not read root files.
>> My SuSE kernel does not have the feature reportedly exploited.

> How did you determine [you did not have the feature reportedly exploited]?

My principle method was of course to try the exploit before and after
hearing others' reports on its symptoms.

My preliminary method was to search the kernel source code for "vmsplice",
the feature named by slashdot, LWM, and Milw0rm.

> Does this exploit have to be compiled on the same system as it is to run,
> or against the same header files,

No.

> ... or just with the same library versions?

or reasonbly close versions.  I don't know how sensitive the exploit is
to the libraries used, but since I didn't see it mentioned during my
limited googling, I suspect library versions are not an issue,
but kernel source version 2.6.17 - 2.6.24.1 is an issue.

On offlist request, I'll send you an rpm off list.

Reporting,
-- 
Bob

  "A year spent in artificial intelligence,
   is enough to make one believe in God."
     -- Alan Perlis



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Mon Feb 11 00:03:11 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:03:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AFD70F.3070208@arb.net>

When I tried it again, su resulted in Root prompt w/o password. Yes, 
root worked at this point.

-dave

Michael wrote:

>Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
>turned off?)
>
>On Feb 10, 2008 10:11 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
>>>>>update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
>>>>>working on mine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
>>>>At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
>>>>get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
>>>>I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
>>>>Yikes!
>>>>
>>>>Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
>>>>1. Download <
>>>>http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
>>>>2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
>>>>3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
>>>>4. Try do do some root stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess
>>>      
>>>
>>that's a
>>    
>>
>>>good thing?
>>>
>>>(running Gentoo stable)
>>>
>>>Clinton
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Try it again Clinton - I got that the first time too. Second time I got
>>a root prompt.
>>
>>It is a big deal if you have other users on your system that have a shell.
>>
>>-dave
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>>    
>>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Mon Feb 11 00:03:49 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:03:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
References: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47AFD735.6070103@arb.net>



Robert Meier wrote:

>Clinton,
>
>  
>
>>I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.
>>I guess that's a good thing?
>>    
>>
>
>In the sense that it stopped you from testing for the vulnerability,
>it is a bad thing.
>The fact that the compiler could not compile the source code,
>is unrelated to whether or not your kernel has the bug.
>
>If you were told that your home furnace might have a defect that risked
>explosion and were mailed a device to test the furnace,
>the fact that you didn't have the right size batteries for the test
>device would not be reason to believe your furnace is without the
>defect.
>
>What the compiler error?
>  Was it a link error?
>    Missing library?
>
>After compiling and executing the exploit, I could not read root files.
>My SuSE kernel does not have the feature reportedly exploited.
>
>The game is afoot
>  
>
Yes, interesting.

-dave


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 11 00:12:18 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:12:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-10, Monsieur Kristian Erik Hermansen a ecrit:
> On Feb 10, 2008 7:39 PM, Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
>> turned off?)
>
> It doesn't matter -- su/sudo makes no difference.  You are given id=0...

Heh, that makes me wonder now how many Ubuntu users out there are
thinking "I'll be safe since you can't su to root in Ubuntu". LOL!

Michael (not the one who asked the sudo/su question :)


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 00:17:25 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:17:25 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 10, 2008 9:12 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Heh, that makes me wonder now how many Ubuntu users out there are
> thinking "I'll be safe since you can't su to root in Ubuntu". LOL!

You are never safe from hackers :-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
"Know something about everything and everything about something."


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 00:55:20 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 00:55:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>

--- Peter Bart wrote:

    Yes I did think of that but since I can't boot anything despite
> successfully installing openSUSE, and the references here
> <http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-46088.html> describing
> just exactly what I did.
>         There should be some sort of option in the BIOS; yes it's been updated;
> to disable the recovery partition but I haven't seen it. I've been
> through the BIOS so many times I'm going to dream about it. I then found
> this
> <http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/Hardware/Clean_Hard_Drive_zero_fill> which promises to wipe a hard drive. That didn't do it either. Which would seem to prove that some partition is still protected?

Repeat question:  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up externally
on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS 6/Win98/WinME
boot floppy -- you can get those from http://www.bootdisk.com

~~ Mikey


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 03:56:26 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 03:56:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080211034838.0289f6f0@pop.gmail.com>

     I decided to try a couple of other programs in the host OS; 
Sound works normally in
Helix Player (playing a WAV file) and in Rythmbox (playing CD tracks) 
but does not
work in Xine (playing a movie .VOB file; I again get sound but no 
picture.)  (And I know
that the .VOB contains a soundtrack all by itself because I've played 
standalone .VOBs
and gotten sound before, on other systems.)

     Anyways, here are the results of "sudo ps aux" with most of each 
line edited out:

  TIME COMMAND
  0:01 init [5]
  0:00 [ksoftirqd/0]
  0:00 [watchdog/0]
  0:00 [events/0]
  0:00 [khelper]
  0:00 [kthread]
  0:00 [kacpid]
  0:00 [kblockd/0]
  0:00 [khubd]
  0:00 [pdflush]
  0:00 [pdflush]
  0:00 [aio/0]
  0:00 [kswapd0]
  0:00 [kseriod]
  0:00 [kjournald]
  0:00 udevd
  0:00 [kgameportd]
  0:00 [kjournald]
  0:00 [kjournald]
  0:00 [kjournald]
  0:01 syslogd -m 0
  0:00 klogd -x
  0:00 portmap
  0:00 rpc.statd
  0:00 auditd
  0:00 [kauditd]
  0:00 rpc.idmapd
  0:00 hcid: processing events
  0:00 sdpd
  0:00 [krfcommd]
  0:00 /usr/sbin/automount --timeout=60 /misc file /etc/auto.misc
  0:00 /usr/sbin/automount --timeout=60 /net program /etc/auto.net
  0:02 nifd -n
  0:00 mDNSResponder
  0:00 /usr/sbin/smartd
  0:00 /usr/sbin/acpid
  0:00 cupsd
  0:00 /usr/sbin/sshd
  0:01 /sbin/apcupsd -f /etc/apcupsd/apcupsd.conf
  0:00 sendmail: accepting connections
  0:00 sendmail: Queue runner at 01:00:00 for /var/spool/clientmqueue
  0:00 gpm -m /dev/input/mice -t imps2
  0:00 /usr/bin/iiimd
  0:00 /usr/sbin/cannaserver -syslog -u canna
  0:00 crond
  0:00 xfs -droppriv -daemon
  0:00 /usr/sbin/atd
  0:00 dbus-daemon --system
  0:00 cups-config-daemon
  0:15 hald --retain-privileges
  0:00 hald-addon-acpi
  0:19 hald-addon-hid-ups
  0:01 hald-addon-storage
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty1
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty2
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty3
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty4
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty5
  0:00 /sbin/mingetty tty6
  0:00 /bin/sh /etc/X11/prefdm -nodaemon
  0:00 /usr/bin/gdm-binary -nodaemon
  0:00 /usr/bin/gdm-binary -nodaemon
18:22 /usr/X11R6/bin/X :0 -audit 0 -auth /var/gdm/:0.Xauth -nolisten tcp vt7
  0:02 /usr/bin/gnome-session
  0:00 /usr/bin/ssh-agent /usr/bin/dbus-launch --exit-with-session 
/etc/X11/xinit/Xclients
  0:00 /usr/bin/dbus-launch --exit-with-session /etc/X11/xinit/Xclients
  0:00 dbus-daemon --fork --print-pid 8 --print-address 6 --session
  0:01 /usr/libexec/gconfd-2 5
  0:00 /usr/bin/gnome-keyring-daemon
  0:00 /usr/libexec/bonobo-activation-server --ac-activate --ior-output-fd=19
  0:02 /usr/libexec/gnome-settings-daemon 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_SettingsDaemon --oaf-ior-fd=23
  0:02 /usr/libexec/gam_server
  0:01 xscreensaver -nosplash
  0:15 /usr/bin/metacity --sm-client-id=default1
  0:05 gnome-panel --sm-client-id default2
  0:03 nautilus --no-default-window --sm-client-id default3
  0:00 gnome-volume-manager --sm-client-id default6
  0:00 eggcups --sm-client-id default5
  0:00 pam-panel-icon --sm-client-id default0
  3:20 /usr/bin/python /usr/bin/rhn-applet-gui --sm-client-id default4
  0:00 /sbin/pam_timestamp_check -d root
  0:08 /usr/libexec/wnck-applet 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_Wncklet_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=27
  0:00 /usr/libexec/gnome-vfs-daemon 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_VFS_Daemon_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=31
  0:00 /usr/libexec/mapping-daemon
  0:37 /usr/libexec/clock-applet 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_ClockApplet_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=35
  0:00 /usr/libexec/notification-area-applet 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_NotificationAreaApplet_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=36
  0:03 /usr/libexec/mixer_applet2 
--oaf-activate-iid=OAFIID:GNOME_MixerApplet_Factory --oaf-ior-fd=34
  0:00 /usr/bin/esd -terminate -nobeeps -as 2 -spawnfd 17
  0:19 gnome-terminal --geometry 80x25
  0:00 gnome-pty-helper
  0:00 bash
  0:00 bash
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-bridge -d /var/run/vmnet-bridge-0.pid /dev/vmnet0 wlan0
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-netifup -d /var/run/vmnet-netifup-vmnet8.pid 
/dev/vmnet8 vmnet8
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-netifup -d /var/run/vmnet-netifup-vmnet1.pid 
/dev/vmnet1 vmnet1
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-natd -d /var/run/vmnet-natd-8.pid -m 
/var/run/vmnet-natd-8.mac -c /etc/vmware/vmnet8/nat/nat.conf
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-dhcpd -cf /etc/vmware/vmnet1/dhcpd/dhcpd.conf 
-lf /etc/vmware/vmnet1/dhcpd/dhcpd.leases -pf 
/var/run/vmnet-dhcpd-vmnet1.pid vmnet1
  0:00 /usr/bin/vmnet-dhcpd -cf /etc/vmware/vmnet8/dhcpd/dhcpd.conf 
-lf /etc/vmware/vmnet8/dhcpd/dhcpd.leases -pf 
/var/run/vmnet-dhcpd-vmnet8.pid vmnet8
  0:00 [loop0]
  0:00 man unix2dos
  0:00 sh -c (cd /usr/share/man && (echo ".pl 1100i"; /usr/bin/gunzip 
-c '/usr/share/man/man1/unix2dos.1.gz'; echo ".\\\""; echo ".pl 
\n(nlu+10") | /usr/bin/gtbl | /usr/bin/nroff -c --legacy ISO-8859-1 
-mandoc 2>/dev/null | /usr/bin/less -is)
  0:00 sh -c (cd /usr/share/man && (echo ".pl 1100i"; /usr/bin/gunzip 
-c '/usr/share/man/man1/unix2dos.1.gz'; echo ".\\\""; echo ".pl 
\n(nlu+10") | /usr/bin/gtbl | /usr/bin/nroff -c --legacy ISO-8859-1 
-mandoc 2>/dev/null | /usr/bin/less -is)
  0:00 /usr/bin/less -is
  0:00 ps aux
  0:00 cut -c 60-
  0:00 sudo unix2dos

     Now can anyone pick out the sound handler?

     Thanks;

     Drew.



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Mon Feb 11 07:38:50 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:38:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net> <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>


On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 00:55 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> --- Peter Bart wrote:
> 
>     Yes I did think of that but since I can't boot anything despite
> > successfully installing openSUSE, and the references here
> > <http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-46088.html> describing
> > just exactly what I did.
> >         There should be some sort of option in the BIOS; yes it's been updated;
> > to disable the recovery partition but I haven't seen it. I've been
> > through the BIOS so many times I'm going to dream about it. I then found
> > this
> > <http://www.linuxquestions.org/linux/answers/Hardware/Clean_Hard_Drive_zero_fill> which promises to wipe a hard drive. That didn't do it either. Which would seem to prove that some partition is still protected?
> 
> Repeat question:  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
> With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up externally
> on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS 6/Win98/WinME
> boot floppy -- you can get those from http://www.bootdisk.com

	Don't think because I didn't say anything I've ignored that, just the
opposite! That does look most promising. I've been working on that
option. I didn't know you could have MBRWiz on a different computer
altogether, I'm not sure I have anything to connect them though. SSH
maybe? Since I'm using my install cd's rescue option to access my box,
and I don't have a usb floppy or cd I've been stumped. I just realized
that when I plug my handheld in the external memory card becomes
readable. That device runs a version of Debian so I should be able to
put MBRWiz on a 1gig flash card.
	Thank you all very much for all your help and suggestions. Since all
the firmware updates from Lenovo are in the form of iso images I didn't
want to start MS and the documentation turns out to be somewhat lacking.
I did go into the bios to check for the protected area, thinkwiki
referenced it but I didn't see where it could possibly be? I thought I
had checked things out between thinkwiki, Lenovo and what little written
documentation there was. Not to be :(

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 08:07:19 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:07:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802110507u6f205086vb6901dec5baa8cf7@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, didn't think I would be attacked for my comment. This exploit, if I
understood correctly, grants access to the root account. My question was
whether or not this exploit would work with the root account completely
locked (I.E. password file going to nologin). Per the group's response to my
comment the exploit gives the user access to id=0 not necessarily the root
account, am I understanding correctly?

On Feb 11, 2008 12:17 AM, Kristian Erik Hermansen <
kristian.hermansen at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 10, 2008 9:12 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> > Heh, that makes me wonder now how many Ubuntu users out there are
> > thinking "I'll be safe since you can't su to root in Ubuntu". LOL!
>
> You are never safe from hackers :-)
> --
> Kristian Erik Hermansen
> "Know something about everything and everything about something."
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Mon Feb 11 08:29:27 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:29:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802110507u6f205086vb6901dec5baa8cf7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>	<fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<225acb190802110507u6f205086vb6901dec5baa8cf7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B04DB7.5030209@bendorius.com>

Michael wrote:
> Per the group's response to my
> comment the exploit gives the user access to id=0 not necessarily the root
> account, am I understanding correctly?
> 
	Yup.  It's a privilege escalation exploit.  That being said, if an 
attacker gets UID=0, it's game over anyway, they have superuser privs.



-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 08:33:59 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:33:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <47B04DB7.5030209@bendorius.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802102020m4f7739b0q63edc0e92a954e8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802110009070.20156@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802102117n65be0d9l3bf30daf2d3493c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<225acb190802110507u6f205086vb6901dec5baa8cf7@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B04DB7.5030209@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802110533g26255888j9a5ac6cbb95744e5@mail.gmail.com>

Got it. Thanks!

On Feb 11, 2008 8:29 AM, Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com> wrote:

> Michael wrote:
> > Per the group's response to my
> > comment the exploit gives the user access to id=0 not necessarily the
> root
> > account, am I understanding correctly?
> >
>        Yup.  It's a privilege escalation exploit.  That being said, if an
> attacker gets UID=0, it's game over anyway, they have superuser privs.
>
>
>
> --
> Joseph Bender
> Bendorius Consulting
> P: 248-434-5580
> F: 248-434-5581
> jcbender at bendorius com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Mon Feb 11 08:50:37 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:50:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B052AD.5070706@bendorius.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

> I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter has
> to do a couple of things first:
> 
> 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
> machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
> 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your machine
> remotely.
> 
	There's also a #3 here (and more, but the coffee hasn't kicked in yet, 
and they're variations anyway).  This is in the form of a vulnerable 
public applications vector, which can and should be labeled as a 
distinct category from #2, in that network security measures at the 
layer 2 and layer 3 level won't do anything to protect.

	A good example is a public facing webserver that *might* be pretty well 
locked down, running as a non-priv'd user.  It does, however, have one 
little vulnerable script or executable that allows for the execution of 
code as the local user, which, in and of itself might be a trival 
exploit with very few actual issues, but combine it with a privilege 
escalation local exploit, get that code to run from that vulnerable 
script, and hey presto, that little issue just got really nasty.

	There's a couple of other nasty variations on this theme, including 
tricking a legit user to execute the "local" exploit code via an email 
attachment, URL, or some other "legitimate" vector(the MS ILOVEYOU virus 
is a good example of this).

	I'm not obviously sure what you mean by "network security measures" for 
#2, but a lot of people treat that as "firewall/NAT/layer-2/layer-3". 
To address everything through layer 7, a good IDS/IPS solution can and 
should be integrated internally and externally on the network and the 
attack signature updates done on a consistent and frequent basis, with 
updates monitored for what they're now checking for.

	For those reasons and a bunch of others, I really hate when a exploit 
gets classified as "local" vs. "remote" and the local attack isn't 
always seen as seriously as the remote exploit (I'm NOT saying however, 
that you're thinking this or seeing it that way).  Attack vector 
analysis is complex enough on any network with more than a few devices 
and operating systems on it that you can't always see how code might end 
up getting executed locally on a box.



-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Feb 11 09:29:51 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:29:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080211142846.99839C0C6@impelind.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Clinton V. Weiss
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 9:48 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
> 
> On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > This looks bad. Affects just about every distro:
> >
> > http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/02/10/2011257.shtml
> >
> > Better patch your machines, pronto!
> >
> > Michael
> >
> 
> 
> I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the 
> exploiter has to do a couple of things first:
> 
> 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local 
> access to your machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
> 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log 
> into your machine remotely.
> 
> If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've 
> got problems.
> 
> Just an observation,
> Clinton
> 

	I agree.

	While this is certainly an issue, this is hardly dangerous if there
is no way for a user to gain remote console or local access to a machine.

	Still, once a patch is available, it is important to pop it into
place.

	-Rob



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 09:35:40 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:35:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 11, 2008 7:38 AM, Peter Bart wrote:

>>  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
>> With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up externally
>> on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS 6/Win98/WinME
>> boot floppy -- you can get those from http://www.bootdisk.com

> Don't think because I didn't say anything I've ignored that, just the
> opposite!  That does look most promising. I've been working on that
> option.

I didn't mean to sound like I was berating you... My thought was that
you could pop out the drive (I think it's relatively easy on that
model) and use an external USB drive interface to hang it off another
PC and clobber it that way...

~~ Mikey


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 11 10:37:34 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:37:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Android Mobile OS
Message-ID: <197266.75546.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Interesting read 

http://www.thestreet.com/s/how-googles-android-os-works/newsanalysis/technology-stories/10402832.html?puc=_cnnmoney&cm_ven=CNNMONEY&cm_cat=Free&cm_pla=Feed&cm_ite=Feed&puc=cnnmoney&



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 14:59:29 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:59:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080211145701.028c35d0@pop.gmail.com>

I think I've found it:

     /usr/bin/esd -terminate -nobeeps -as 2 -spawnfd 17

Now to see about turning it on and off...

----

- Drew.



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Mon Feb 11 12:45:45 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:45:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site> <47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net>
	<20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080211124545.7396fc5e@Nokia-N800-26>

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:35:40 -0500
"Michael Rudas" <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 11, 2008 7:38 AM, Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> >>  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
> >> With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up
> >> externally on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS
> >> 6/Win98/WinME boot floppy -- you can get those from
> >> http://www.bootdisk.com
> 
> > Don't think because I didn't say anything I've ignored that, just
> > the opposite!  That does look most promising. I've been working on
> > that option.
> 
> I didn't mean to sound like I was berating you... My thought was that
> you could pop out the drive (I think it's relatively easy on that
> model) and use an external USB drive interface to hang it off another
> PC and clobber it that way...

Mike,
	It wasn't taken that way :) Yes the hard drives do still come
out very easily. Thanks to Gary for kicking me down that road w/another
box. I have no way to connect it then though. I do have a Nokia 770
that can connect via usb among other ways. My thought was to bring up
the T61 via live cd, connect the 770 w/MBRWhiz on it and whale away.
First I need to get w/Lenovo to find what I'm missing in the bios,
learn the correct syntax for the MBRWhiz using it that way. Neither
computer has anything on it that can't be easily replaced. But......
since it's snapped so cold the work calls are flooding in and those pay
the bills. I'm also prepping for my master plumber's exam in March, my
girlfriend doesn't know me anymore and the dog's started barking at me.
<sigh>

-- 
Peter The Plumber sm on the Road
State Licensed Plumber


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 11 11:21:54 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:21:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802101907t4f24cc3bmf535fd67642be351@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<f0e9fe590802101848g20b939d5i93de91d745509de6@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102152470.5796@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590802101907t4f24cc3bmf535fd67642be351@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B07622.4020908@hotpop.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 9:56 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> 
>> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>>> I fully agree that this vulnerability is a big deal.  But the exploiter
>> has
>>> to do a couple of things first:
>>>
>>> 1) Circumvent physical security measures and have local access to your
>>> machine, and be able to log in to the machine.
>>> 2) Circumvent network security measures and be able to log into your
>> machine
>>> remotely.
>>>
>>> If #1 or #2 happens, then with or without this exploit you've got
>> problems.
>>
>> This is a *local* root exploit. I take it you didn't actually read the
>> link I gave. ;)
>>
>> There *are* legitimate multi-user Linux machines out there, by the way.
>>
>> Michael
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
> 
> 
> You gave a slashdot link, where RTFA isn't required!  :)
> 
> I've tried two different systems using the instructions provided in another
> message:  my Gentoo desktop and my Debian VPS server.  Slashdot's link to
> proof of concept code won't compile on either system, and the concept code
> provided in another message compiles on my Debian VPS but doesn't work.
> Kind of a bummer I guess, I still haven't gotten my hands on a working Linux
> exploit so that I can fully understand and learn how it works.
> 
> I used to do that with boot and .exe viruses back in the day.   Figuring out
> the assembly was a challenge yet fun.

Do a google search for Morris worm.
Not linux precisely... it attacked SunOS and 4.3BSD.

Of course, to understand it, you'll first have to
learn about the VAX-11 and 680x0 cpus
[Yes, the Morris worm attacked two totally different
hardware architectures!]

The first successful dissection was by George Goble
at Purdue ECN.  He might even have a hard-copy of
the paper still laying around. [Somewhere, in a box,I
have a copy of his paper on the first dual CPU Unix].

> 
> Clinton
> 
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 11 12:31:52 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 12:31:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102030360.4594@banana.sluggo.net>	<47AFA81D.8040107@arb.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802102047180.4853@banana.sluggo.net>	<f0e9fe590802101853h5f8c17e0v9cdd0ff707ee4ff5@mail.gmail.com>	<47AFBCF3.6070702@arb.net>
	<225acb190802101939oe4e32d2u7dc23dff8de0ed45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B08688.80000@hotpop.com>

Michael wrote:
> Could this be a point for sudo instead of su? (Does this work with root
> turned off?)

You can never totally "turn off" root -- User ID 0 always
exists, and will always have its "super-user" powers.
that's completely independant of whether you turn off
the ability to login to root, or su to it, or whatever,
because this is obviously bypassing the su mechanisms.


> 
> On Feb 10, 2008 10:11 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2008-02-10, Monsieur Dave Arbogast a ecrit:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Tried it on a SuSE 10.x I have - does not work. Of course I have auto
>>>>> update enabled ;-) but it looks like that has nothing to do with it now
>>>>> working on mine.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> What happened when you ran that exploit program as a nonroot user?
>>>> At first I thought it didn't work on my F7 system, because I didn't
>>>> get a root command prompt (it still showed $ instead of #). But then
>>>> I tried a few things that only root can do, and sure enough it worked.
>>>> Yikes!
>>>>
>>>> Here's a quick way to test if your system is vulnerable:
>>>> 1. Download <
>>>> http://downloads.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities/exploits/27704.c>
>>>> 2. gcc -o exploit 27704.c
>>>> 3. [as non-privileged user] ./exploit
>>>> 4. Try do do some root stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I tried this and all I get is a compile error with step 2.  I guess
>> that's a
>>> good thing?
>>>
>>> (running Gentoo stable)
>>>
>>> Clinton
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Try it again Clinton - I got that the first time too. Second time I got
>> a root prompt.
>>
>> It is a big deal if you have other users on your system that have a shell.
>>
>> -dave
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 15:24:26 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:24:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MOFO (MOWFO) Mondays
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802101122y14f7dec7wb19869885684d0ce@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802101122y14f7dec7wb19869885684d0ce@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802111224g170e08d7vc79cb46c56474173@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 10, 2008 2:22 PM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Our SF fandom group, MOFO, meets each Monday at 8 p.m.  We alternate
> between the Redford Grill (tomorrow's meeting) located on the
> south-west corner of Beech-Daly and Five Mile Road and the Ram's Horn
> (next week's meeting) on Dequindre just south of 13 Mile Road.

I'll have to join you the next time I'm in Detroit.  The place I stay
at is rather close to there.


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 17:34:03 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:34:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fixing sound problem in Firefox
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080211172824.028c17a0@pop.gmail.com>

     I now think it's a permissions issue somehow. I was able to get 
sound out of both
xine and Firefox (after copying the files over from ~/drew/.mozilla) 
when logged into
the root account. (sudo from the user account did not help.)

     (And esd-ctl off didn't have any effect either.)

----

   - Drew.



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 00:33:22 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:33:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>

Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
excellent collection of cheat sheets:

"Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
<http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection>

Wow!

~~ Mikey


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 00:46:41 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:46:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802112146w100f2b79m9e5d478e6cc3183b@mail.gmail.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?

It looks like this is turning around and biting MS in the derriere,
big time.  Arrogance has its price, apparently...

"Microsoft's $80 Billion (and Growing) Yahoo Headache"
<http://seekingalpha.com/article/63912-microsoft-s-80-billion-and-growing-yahoo-headache>

"Yang Email on Yahoo Board Decision"
<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120274667426359131.html>

~~ Mikey


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 00:53:13 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:53:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>

Somehow the last slash got dropped, and it's needed.  Fixed now, sorry...

Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
excellent collection of cheat sheets:

"Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
<http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection/>

Wow!

 ~~ Mikey


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 02:12:51 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 02:12:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802112312h2ece61bcqdb75e3de54f2a52d@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 12, 2008 12:53 AM, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Somehow the last slash got dropped, and it's needed.  Fixed now, sorry...
>
>
> Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
> excellent collection of cheat sheets:
>
> "Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
> <http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection/>
>
> Wow!

Very nice.  Thanks.


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Tue Feb 12 06:38:39 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:38:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Microsoft offers $44.6 billion for Yahoo!
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112146w100f2b79m9e5d478e6cc3183b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802010613g12495a2eh53b71b115ad9fd3a@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380802112146w100f2b79m9e5d478e6cc3183b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1202816320.4099.99.camel@plumber.site>


On Tue, 2008-02-12 at 00:46 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> Michael Rudas wrote:
> > Yow!  I hope this DOESN'T happen... who needs another Hotmail?
> 
> It looks like this is turning around and biting MS in the derriere,
> big time.  Arrogance has its price, apparently...
> 
> "Microsoft's $80 Billion (and Growing) Yahoo Headache"
> <http://seekingalpha.com/article/63912-microsoft-s-80-billion-and-growing-yahoo-headache>
> 
> "Yang Email on Yahoo Board Decision"
> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120274667426359131.html>
> 
> ~~ Mikey


	Good, I don't need the headache of trying to figure out how and when
this might filter down to my DSL provider, ATT
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Tue Feb 12 06:43:00 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:43:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380802112153u6eb4ab2ep7cb712a1b4187a46@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1202816580.4099.104.camel@plumber.site>


On Tue, 2008-02-12 at 00:53 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> Somehow the last slash got dropped, and it's needed.  Fixed now, sorry...
> 
> Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
> excellent collection of cheat sheets:
> 
> "Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
> <http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection/>
> 
> Wow!
> 

	Very nice!! Thanks!

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Feb 12 09:49:04 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:49:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B1B1E0.6000601@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
> excellent collection of cheat sheets:
>
> "Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
> <http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection>
>
>   
Yea baby the very thing I have been looking for.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 11:04:36 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:04:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux-Unix cheat sheets (many)
In-Reply-To: <47B1B1E0.6000601@comcast.net>
References: <b67fb0380802112133x5b58a2c8nece3d4e31de49293@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B1B1E0.6000601@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802120804x4957424enf129732483821346@mail.gmail.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:

> Michael Rudas wrote:
> > Via "Free Software Daily" <http://www.fsdaily.com> -- here's an
> > excellent collection of cheat sheets:
> > "Linux-Unix cheat sheets -- The ultimate collection"
> > <http://www.scottklarr.com/topic/115/linux-unix-cheat-sheets---the-ultimate-collection/>

> Yea baby the very thing I have been looking for.

...and the reason I was keeping an eye out.

~~ M.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 12:20:17 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:20:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] AMD Phenom 9500 Performance?
Message-ID: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Does any one have a AMD Phenom 9500 on a system ? 

If so What is the performance?

David C. Lane 






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Feb 13 20:23:12 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:23:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] AMD Phenom 9500 Performance?
In-Reply-To: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802131723n1980e3d3m78f54c77afe2ea5c@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 13, 2008 12:20 PM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Does any one have a AMD Phenom 9500 on a system ?
>
> If so What is the performance?

New 32-bit vs. 64-bit review at Phoronix:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=998&num=1


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Feb 13 16:17:53 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:17:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] AMD Phenom 9500 Performance?
In-Reply-To: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <218089.14703.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47B35E81.10909@hotpop.com>

David Lane wrote:
> Does any one have a AMD Phenom 9500 on a system ? 
> 
> If so What is the performance?

To do what?




From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Feb 14 22:24:50 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:24:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux root exploit
In-Reply-To: <20080211050043.77395127C75@starfox.local>
References: <20080211034034.4C74420ABAF@starfox.local>	<47AFC527.9060909@ameritech.net>
	<20080211050043.77395127C75@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47B50602.3080004@ameritech.net>

Robert Meier wrote:

>> How did you determine [you did not have the feature reportedly exploited]?
> 
> My principle method was of course to try the exploit before and after
> hearing others' reports on its symptoms.
> 
> My preliminary method was to search the kernel source code for "vmsplice",
> the feature named by slashdot, LWM, and Milw0rm.
> 

Never the less:
<http://www.novell.com/linux/security/advisories/2008_07_kernel.html>

> 1) Problem Description and Brief Discussion
> 
>    This kernel update fixes the following critical security problem:
> 
>    - CVE-2008-0600: A local privilege escalation was found in the
>      vmsplice_pipe system call, which could be used by local attackers
>      to gain root access.
> 
>    This bug affects the following products:
>    - openSUSE 10.2 and 10.3
>    - SUSE Linux Enterprise Realtime 10 (SP1)
> 
>    Fixed packages have been released for openSUSE 10.2 and 10.3.
> 
>    For SUSE Linux Enterprise Realtime 10 packages are being prepared
>    currently.
> 
>    Since this problem affects Linux kernels starting with 2.6.17 and
>    vmsplice was not back-ported, no older products are affected.

An update is available, and probably advisable.




From tcameron at redhat.com  Fri Feb 15 12:52:58 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:52:58 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Red Hat is Hiring for Linux and J2EE Positions
Message-ID: <47B5D17A.1030108@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Howdy All -

Just wanted to remind you that we are looking for sales engineers,
consultants and trainers.  We need folks who have enterprise Unix/Linux
or JBoss/Websphere/WebLogic/other J2EE experience.

Ohio- or Chicago-based is preferred but not a hard requirement.  I also
want to correct my earlier posting on these jobs - if we get regional
folks, the travel will be mostly in-region.  Think "day trip," not "gone
all week."

If you know of anyone who might be interested and qualified, please have
them contact me ASAP.  We will be conducting interviews in Chicago very
soon, and want to get qualified applicants into those interviews.

Many thanks,
- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHtdF5mzle50YHwaARAgICAKDGME+GaudL+uPUBm/A2Et4VMtnIACeKg+P
kyEx2Gz7kf4OnRi8JlWynQQ=
=ZrJY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Fri Feb 15 13:27:59 2008
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:27:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
Message-ID: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...

http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Fri Feb 15 13:33:40 2008
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:33:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
Message-ID: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


BTW, Stephen Norris the founder of the capital equity company is connected to Carlyle group, a Bin-Laden + Bush family company...

-----Original Message-----
>From: "R. Kannan" <rkannan at peoplepc.com>
>Sent: Feb 15, 2008 1:27 PM
>To: mdlug at mdlug.org
>Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
>
>I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
>
>http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm
>
>________________________________________
>PeoplePC Online
>A better way to Internet
>http://www.peoplepc.com
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From blubdog at gmail.com  Fri Feb 15 16:57:47 2008
From: blubdog at gmail.com (Bruce Smith)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:57:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>

Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
say this for a very long time:

Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
web site?   ;-)

I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)

 - BS


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 15 17:42:02 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:42:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B6153A.1040306@ameritech.net>

Bruce Smith wrote:

> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
> web site?   ;-)

Yes

> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
> get rehashed here.  

Glad to amuse you.

>I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)

My inner smart-ass wishes to thank your inner smart-ass for so plainly
elucidating the obvious for us.

By way of returning the favor: Slash Dot is like the madding (or
maddening) crowd where I, for one, don't really know any one. I'm too
lazy to try to keep track. MDLUG is more like a small private club where
we all more or less know each other.

>  - BS

Thanks for sharing.


From ldaphelp at thuemmel.com  Fri Feb 15 23:51:38 2008
From: ldaphelp at thuemmel.com (Mark Thuemmel)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 23:51:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>

Bruce Smith wrote:
> Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
> suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
> really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
> say this for a very long time:
> 
> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
> web site?   ;-)
> 
> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
> get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)
> 
>  - BS

I'm kinda for coverage on the local level of SCO since Chrysler is right 
down the street from me and some of the court stuff is local too.

I think some of us have posted comments on Slashdot as well. The 
statment that "all the major slashdot stories seem to get rehashed here" 
might be a bit over the top, and well even if they are, at least there 
is a local perspective and something I can chat with fellow MDLUGers 
when I run in to them.

I'm also for any news on Ralsky, anytime, anywhere.

Its better than Microsoft bashing....too easy a target these days....

But I would agree, simply posting a link to slashdot without some 
insight is probably not worth the post.

I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little 
bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.


From blubdog at gmail.com  Sat Feb 16 07:56:31 2008
From: blubdog at gmail.com (Bruce Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 07:56:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
Message-ID: <b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>

> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little
> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.

I apologize if I killed this thread and getting side tracked.
Let me try to put it back on subject.

Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???

I admit not being current with SCO's business.  Do they have any
products other than SCO Unix?  If that's all they have, then I can't
imagine how they could make money.

AFAIK, SCO Unix hasn't been updated in years (decades?), and nobody in
their right mind would buy it now.  Even "back in it's day" it sucked
(IMO) - I've seen it.  The only nitch it had was the ability to run on
PC hardware (it was cheaper), but compared to other [non PC] Unix
vendors of the day, it sucked!  There are certainly much better, and
cheaper, options for running *nix on PC hardware these days!

Do they have any source of income, other than legacy Unix
implementations still paying maintenance?  That has to be shrinking.

Before he retired recently, a friend of mine was a SCO Unix admin at a
branch of the US military.  Places like that are not fast to change,
but eventually SCO Unix has to become extinct, doesn't it?

 - BS


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Sat Feb 16 12:01:28 2008
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:01:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>

Bruce Smith wrote:
>> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little
>> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.
> 
> I apologize if I killed this thread and getting side tracked.
> Let me try to put it back on subject.
> 
> Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
> Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???
> 

 From what I've read this is nothing more than a line of credit. So sco 
can carry on/drag out their litigation.

They are getting 50mil up front with the option to borrow more at 
something 20% interest.

If and when this goes through, Darl McBride must resign.

BD




From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 16 13:41:32 2008
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:41:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380802161041m5f4ae4bag6851dd3a6880ab20@mail.gmail.com>

--- R. Kannan wrote:

>> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone
to keep funding their sinking business...

> BTW, Stephen Norris the founder of the capital equity company is connected to Carlyle Group, a Bin-Laden + Bush family company...

A front, in other words.  That must be the "Middle Eastern connection"
I saw mentioned early on.   The Carlyle Group -- military hardware,
Dunkin' Donuts, and now this!  Army junk, junk food, junk litigation
-- somehow, it fits...

~~ Mikey


From blubdog at gmail.com  Sat Feb 16 16:06:53 2008
From: blubdog at gmail.com (Bruce Smith)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:06:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>

> > Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
> > Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???
>
>  From what I've read this is nothing more than a line of credit.

Doesn't seem like a very safe loan.

> So sco can carry on/drag out their litigation.

OK, so they are gambling they can still get money from IBM.  I thought
SCO lost the court case?  Is this an appeal thing?

Any chance Microsoft is secretly funding this?

> They are getting 50mil up front with the option to borrow more at
> something 20% interest.

The lawyers are are the only ones getting money out of this
litigation.  I'm in the wrong line of work!

> If and when this goes through, Darl McBride must resign.

At least there is a bright side.   :-)

 - BS


From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 16 16:25:16 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:25:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802161041m5f4ae4bag6851dd3a6880ab20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b67fb0380802161041m5f4ae4bag6851dd3a6880ab20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B754BC.8080705@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> A front, in other words.  That must be the "Middle Eastern connection"
> I saw mentioned early on.   The Carlyle Group -- military hardware,
> Dunkin' Donuts, and now this!  Army junk, junk food, junk litigation
> -- somehow, it fits...
>   

And I'll give you any odds you want that Mickey Soft is behind it.  No
intelligent financial manager is going to make this call.  SCO is losing
in the courts and losing badly.  As mentioned they have no product worth
mentioning. 

I also notice they are taking the company private, that means their
books will be closed to the public.  Ergo the hanky panky will not be
out in the open for all to see.

SCO is a stalking horse that MS is not willing to let go of.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 15 13:50:58 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:50:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <47B5DF12.5090605@hotpop.com>

R. Kannan wrote:
> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
> 
> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm
> 

A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 15 13:53:14 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:53:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>

R. Kannan wrote:
> BTW, Stephen Norris the founder of the capital equity company is connected to Carlyle group, a Bin-Laden + Bush family company...
> 

So is everything since 21 Jan 2001 a Bush conspiracy these days?

Personally, I never liked the guy (he's far too much of
a socialist for my liking)...but the smear tactics used
against him are just way over the line.

> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "R. Kannan" <rkannan at peoplepc.com>
>> Sent: Feb 15, 2008 1:27 PM
>> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
>> Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
>>
>> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
>>
>> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 16 18:25:29 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:25:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802161818590.2423@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-15, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
> R. Kannan wrote:
>> BTW, Stephen Norris the founder of the capital equity company is connected to Carlyle group, a Bin-Laden + Bush family company...
>>
> So is everything since 21 Jan 2001 a Bush conspiracy these days?

Of course not. Nice straw man. @_@

> Personally, I never liked the guy (he's far too much of
> a socialist for my liking)...

I left you left out the smiley at the end of that statement. :)

Michael


From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 16 19:02:57 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:02:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<47B5DF9A.9070502@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47B779B1.4030102@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> So is everything since 21 Jan 2001 a Bush conspiracy these days?
>
> Personally, I never liked the guy (he's far too much of
> a socialist for my liking)...but the smear tactics used
> against him are just way over the line.
>   

Socialist?  Hardly, i don't know any self respecting socialist that
would own up to his policies.  Bush is a hard core mercantilist. 
Neither of which is good for you and me.  

Smear tactics are not necessary.  He has done more than enough evil by
his own hand to require anything added to it.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 16 21:07:09 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:07:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>

So far....

Unbuntu/kbuntu Gutsy Gibbon, x86, amd64, PPC

openSUSE 10.3 x86, amd64 CD and DVD.

CentOS x86, amd64 CD and DVD.

I am currently downloading Debian.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb 16 21:26:12 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:26:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
Message-ID: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>

I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in 
the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering 
the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter 
gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you 
could say I'm not am amateur.)

OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera. 
What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing 
S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with 
fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying 
to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their 
photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more 
minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.

The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone 
to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter 
release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool. 
None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery 
exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.

-dave


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sat Feb 16 22:00:49 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:00:49 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 16, 2008 6:26 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>
> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>
> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.

What model camera was this?  Of course, I am sure there are many ways
to accomplish what you believe has happened, but check out this
article...
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sat Feb 16 10:06:23 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:06:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161002550.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, R. Kannan wrote:

> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
>
> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm

Read carefully PJ's assessment of the deal and its ties to Gates and 
Microsoft through SCNP and its Saudi financier and also note webster's (a 
retired lawyer who follows groklaw like a saint) comments regarding his 
take on the deal. It may fly; it's been tailored to do so, but it can 
still be headed off or slowed down by sufficient objection from the 
parties in interest, i.e., Novell, IBM, Red Hat, etc. I'm not at all 
surprised, though.




From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sat Feb 16 10:08:02 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:08:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161006520.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, Bruce Smith wrote:

> Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
> suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
> really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
> say this for a very long time:
>
> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
> web site?   ;-)
>
> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
> get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)

I think the folks here can discuss anything Linux-related, which the whole 
SCO saga is. Thanks for your input, it will be duly noted and round-filed.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sat Feb 16 10:17:23 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:17:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161009050.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008, Bruce Smith wrote:

>> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little
>> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.
>
> I apologize if I killed this thread and getting side tracked.
> Let me try to put it back on subject.
>
> Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
> Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???

A multi-billionaire Saudi financier well-connected with Bush and Gates in 
order to keep the FUD alive.

> I admit not being current with SCO's business.  Do they have any
> products other than SCO Unix?  If that's all they have, then I can't
> imagine how they could make money.

Well, there's the Me, Inc mobile embedded software spin-off that some 
analysts think is worth a ton of dough due to its possible marketability. 
Having never seen such offering, it's impossible to tell either way, 
though. It's based on the Unix codebase, likely with lots of the odd open 
source stuff glued in there.

> AFAIK, SCO Unix hasn't been updated in years (decades?), and nobody in
> their right mind would buy it now.  Even "back in it's day" it sucked
> (IMO) - I've seen it.

I wish I had never seen it. I used to service a bunch of dental offices 
where a local OEM dumped a billing platform based on SCO's ancient 
OpenServer OS. A true nightmare to support, considering that most of those 
installations dated back to the early 90s, most of it still running on the 
original hardware.

> The only nitch it had was the ability to run on
> PC hardware (it was cheaper), but compared to other [non PC] Unix
> vendors of the day, it sucked!  There are certainly much better, and
> cheaper, options for running *nix on PC hardware these days!

Linux on any cheapo box can do it for dimes on hundreds of dollars.

> Do they have any source of income, other than legacy Unix
> implementations still paying maintenance?  That has to be shrinking.

They gots a lawsuites dat could go to teh MOON!

> Before he retired recently, a friend of mine was a SCO Unix admin at a
> branch of the US military.  Places like that are not fast to change,
> but eventually SCO Unix has to become extinct, doesn't it?

I can only imagine what a patchwork quilt the POS systems at places like 
McDonalds, Taco Hell, and Wheredy's could be, since I believe they have 
all run SCO Unix for decades.


From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sat Feb 16 16:32:50 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:32:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>
	(blubdog@gmail.com)
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>
	<b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080216213250.354C719E60A@starfox.local>

>> So sco can carry on/drag out their litigation.
> ...
> Any chance Microsoft is secretly funding this?
> ...
> The lawyers are are the only ones getting money out of this litigation.

Is there anything to stop the money supporting select candidates
and/or their campaigns, or to stop it disproportionately "distracting"
voter attention from issues important to individuals and smaller businesses?

Concerned,
-- 
Bob



From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 17 00:21:18 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 00:21:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] HP-11C emulator
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>

I don't know if any of you have seen this, but it's extremely cool:

http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/

It's a program (for Linux) that emulates a lot of HP calculators,
including the 11C (my favorite), 12C, 15C, and more.

Screenshot of it in HP-11C mode on my Fedora system:
http://home.comcast.net/~micorral/hp11c.png

I love it! :)

Michael


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Sun Feb 17 10:27:01 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:27:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B716E8.9080906@wideopenwest.com>
	<b52f2d360802161306t6e67bac7j231d63154d5822cd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802171025230.4422@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008, Bruce Smith wrote:

>>> Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
>>> Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???
>>
>>  From what I've read this is nothing more than a line of credit.
>
> Doesn't seem like a very safe loan.
>
>> So sco can carry on/drag out their litigation.
>
> OK, so they are gambling they can still get money from IBM.  I thought
> SCO lost the court case?  Is this an appeal thing?
>
> Any chance Microsoft is secretly funding this?

Every chance. It's become extremely apparent with the ties that SNCP has 
to the Saudi financier and his ties to both Gates and Bush.

>> They are getting 50mil up front with the option to borrow more at
>> something 20% interest.
> 
> The lawyers are are the only ones getting money out of this
> litigation.  I'm in the wrong line of work!

Amen. I should take up law school next.

>> If and when this goes through, Darl McBride must resign.
>
> At least there is a bright side.   :-)

Amen. Snarlin' Darl can piss up a rope for all I care.


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Sun Feb 17 13:06:20 2008
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:06:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>

Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm

Another reason to hanging on to my old 35mms.

This seems like a very broad patent, surprise. I recently saw something 
like this in a movie.

BD


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 17 13:04:20 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:04:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B87724.3090202@arb.net>



Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:

>On Feb 16, 2008 6:26 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
>>the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
>>the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
>>gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
>>could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>
>>OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
>>What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
>>S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
>>fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
>>to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
>>photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
>>minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>
>>The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
>>to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
>>release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
>>None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
>>exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>>    
>>
>
>What model camera was this?  Of course, I am sure there are many ways
>to accomplish what you believe has happened, but check out this
>article...
>http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>  
>
Very interesting.... I was guessing they were using something from the 
military to block laser guided whatever. It would be IR and certainly my 
focusing system would not be happy about it. I tried to get another 
chance but all the other motorcades last week were low value guests and 
didn't have the tailing gunship.

I have a Pentax K10 D. Its greatest asset is the anti-shake is in the 
camera body so I can use my long glass lenses from my newspaper days. 
Most of the others put the anti shake in the lens, rendering the older 
high end lenses much less useful. Its over 10m per shot and allows full 
manual for every option including turning off anti shake and auto focus. 
Both are a single separate switch.

They claim it is rain proof and the body has water seals for everything, 
but I worry about the lens, so I still shield it.

-dave


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 17:22:54 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:22:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] HP-11C emulator
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217171536.028d0a70@pop.gmail.com>

At 12:21 AM 2/17/08, you wrote:
>I don't know if any of you have seen this, but it's extremely cool:
>
>http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/
>
>It's a program (for Linux) that emulates a lot of HP calculators,
>including the 11C (my favorite), 12C, 15C, and more.

My personal favorite is emu48 on the linux desktop, and x48 on the zaurus. Both
emulate the HP48, the ROMs for which have been published by HP on their
web site, last I heard.

----

- Drew.




From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 17:28:33 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:28:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>

At 01:06 PM 2/17/08, you wrote:
>Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> > 
> http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>
>Another reason to hanging on to my old 35mms.

It seems that even digital cameras should be able to be unaffected, 
if either there is no
provision for receiving infrared signals or doing anything about 
them, or else the IR
sensor is blocked with something and you do the focusing and 
everything else manually.


>This seems like a very broad patent, surprise. I recently saw something
>like this in a movie.


They don't even have one to show yet, and they're filing for a patent 
on it!? WTF?

----

- Drew.



From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 16:29:23 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:29:23 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802171329le958ddbo49a39a1cb1fb9478@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 17, 2008 2:28 PM, Drew <drew4096 at gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems that even digital cameras should be able to be unaffected,

Doubt it.  All electronics can be affected by directed EMP pulses if
necessary :-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 02:40:20 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 02:40:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B69364.20703@hotpop.com>

Bruce Smith wrote:
> Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
> suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
> really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
> say this for a very long time:
> 
> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
> web site?   ;-)
> 
> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
> get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)
> 

I don't read slashdot (too many weenies over-reacting to
the utterly mundane.... like the periodic resurfacing
of the unmarked keyboard as if it's the holy grail of
computing hardware) so personally, I appreciate it when
someone brings a TRULY interesting news item to the list.





From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Feb 17 17:35:43 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:35:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B8B6BF.8070106@arb.net>

Well, I suspect you have to go totally manual even with the 35mm (Yes, 
still have my work horse from the day) as even if you are on manual 
focus your metering system could be fooled by high IR jamming. Sure wish 
I had the second chance last week.

-dave

Drew wrote:

>At 01:06 PM 2/17/08, you wrote:
>  
>
>>Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
>>    
>>
>>http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>>
>>Another reason to hanging on to my old 35mms.
>>    
>>
>
>It seems that even digital cameras should be able to be unaffected, 
>if either there is no
>provision for receiving infrared signals or doing anything about 
>them, or else the IR
>sensor is blocked with something and you do the focusing and 
>everything else manually.
>
>
>  
>
>>This seems like a very broad patent, surprise. I recently saw something
>>like this in a movie.
>>    
>>
>
>
>They don't even have one to show yet, and they're filing for a patent 
>on it!? WTF?
>
>----
>
>- Drew.
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sun Feb 17 18:46:09 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:46:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net> <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF9CB8.5060303@ameritech.net>
	<1202699302.4099.42.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802102155m4252994cp4a84b66778811bcb@mail.gmail.com>
	<1202733530.4099.65.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802110635x2b5cf07ag17a289fd877f90e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1203291969.4099.158.camel@plumber.site>


On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 09:35 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> On Feb 11, 2008 7:38 AM, Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> >>  Have you tried to re-write the MBR (bootblock)?
> >> With MBRWiz, you can do so even if the drive is hooked up externally
> >> on another PC, or "fdisk /mbr" will do it from a MS-DOS 6/Win98/WinME
> >> boot floppy -- you can get those from http://www.bootdisk.com
> 
> > Don't think because I didn't say anything I've ignored that, just the
> > opposite!  That does look most promising. I've been working on that
> > option.
> My thought was that
> you could pop out the drive (I think it's relatively easy on that
> model) and use an external USB drive interface to hang it off another
> PC and clobber it that way...

	Okay, I got the mbrwiz executable onto a memory card, that went into a
Nokia 770, that connected via usb cable too the T61 which was running on
a live cd. I apparently was able to find the right commands because I
got a complaint about missing shared libraries. Bummer. I found Parted
Magic which might do what I need and it's a live cd based on Linux. It's
running testdisk as we speak. If that doesn't work I'll try a MS boot
disk from the link you sent. I think my only other option would be to
restore my system with the recovery cd's I have and release the
partition from within XP. I'm not sure which is more agonizing.
	Interestingly I was told by Lenovo software support I had invalidated
my warranty because I had deleted XP despite the fact that Lenovo
supposedly supports Linux. That after being given some vague reference
to releasing the hidden partition from within the bios. They weren't
able to point me to the specific option. Kind of disappointing but I
know I live far below their level of consciousness.



-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 16:09:18 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:09:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>

Bruce Smith wrote:
>> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little
>> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.
> 
> I apologize if I killed this thread and getting side tracked.
> Let me try to put it back on subject.
> 
> Who in their right mind would invest in SCO?
> Especially ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS???
> 
> I admit not being current with SCO's business.  Do they have any
> products other than SCO Unix?  If that's all they have, then I can't
> imagine how they could make money.
> 
> AFAIK, SCO Unix hasn't been updated in years (decades?), and nobody in
> their right mind would buy it now.  Even "back in it's day" it sucked
> (IMO) - I've seen it.  The only nitch it had was the ability to run on
> PC hardware (it was cheaper), but compared to other [non PC] Unix
> vendors of the day, it sucked!  There are certainly much better, and
> cheaper, options for running *nix on PC hardware these days!
> 
> Do they have any source of income, other than legacy Unix
> implementations still paying maintenance?  That has to be shrinking.
> 
> Before he retired recently, a friend of mine was a SCO Unix admin at a
> branch of the US military.  Places like that are not fast to change,
> but eventually SCO Unix has to become extinct, doesn't it?

The US military is moving to OS X and Linux servers to
replace the current windows servers.




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 19:51:39 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:51:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 16, 2008 4:09 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> The US military is moving to OS X and Linux servers to
> replace the current windows servers.

If that's true then how long will it be before Apple gets into
military hardware?
iTank
iDestroyer
iJet


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 02:47:02 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 02:47:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
Message-ID: <47B694F6.7070101@hotpop.com>

Mark Thuemmel wrote:
> Bruce Smith wrote:
>> Disclaimer:  Please do NOT take this the wrong way!!!  I'm NOT
>> suggesting you change your mailing list rules, and these threads
>> really don't bother me, but the smart-ass in me has been wanting to
>> say this for a very long time:
>>
>> Do you guys know that you can post comments directly on the slashdot
>> web site?   ;-)
>>
>> I just find it humorous that all the major slashdot stories seem to
>> get rehashed here.  I'm subscribed to all the LUG mailing lists in
>> Michigan (that I know of), and this is the only place I see that
>> happen.  Just an observation.  I really don't want to start a flame
>> war, and it's not my place to tell you how to run your mailing list.
>> I'll shut up now, as my inner smart-ass has been satisfied.  :-)
>>
>>  - BS
> 
> I'm kinda for coverage on the local level of SCO since Chrysler is right 
> down the street from me and some of the court stuff is local too.
> 
> I think some of us have posted comments on Slashdot as well. The 
> statment that "all the major slashdot stories seem to get rehashed here" 
> might be a bit over the top, and well even if they are, at least there 
> is a local perspective and something I can chat with fellow MDLUGers 
> when I run in to them.
> 
> I'm also for any news on Ralsky, anytime, anywhere.
> 
> Its better than Microsoft bashing....too easy a target these days....
> 
> But I would agree, simply posting a link to slashdot without some 
> insight is probably not worth the post.
> 
> I, for one, came here right after reading slashdot and was a little 
> bummed there wasn't a bunch of chatter over this milestone for SCO.

Did you know that the new "investors" insisted that Darl
resign because he putting too much resources "into software
development."

Apparently, the new investors have NO interest in selling
software, just suing Linux-companies and Linux users.

Eventually, IBM, Novell and others will hit them back
with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference

for driving customers away... and if financial links to Bill
Gates and friends are demonstrated to the courts...I would
bet that some long-due poetic justice will have arrived.




From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 17 20:43:56 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:43:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>
	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>
	<b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802172043140.3543@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-17, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
> On Feb 16, 2008 4:09 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> The US military is moving to OS X and Linux servers to
>> replace the current windows servers.
>
> If that's true then how long will it be before Apple gets into
> military hardware?
> iTank
> iDestroyer
> iJet

iTorture

Michael


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Sun Feb 17 20:58:33 2008
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:58:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: For Sale
Message-ID: <8681A1B99F0B164D97CDA02C4E4938AE033ADB75@QL1EXVS4.mi.corp.rockfin.com>

I have one (1) Dell PowerConnect 2224 24 port switch that I want to get rid of.  It is unmanaged, 10/100 and I would like to get $25 for it.  Please contact me off-list if you are interested.

Greg

From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 23:13:41 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:13:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> So far....
> 
> Unbuntu/kbuntu Gutsy Gibbon, x86, amd64, PPC
> 
> openSUSE 10.3 x86, amd64 CD and DVD.
> 
> CentOS x86, amd64 CD and DVD.
> 
> I am currently downloading Debian.


Cool!





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 23:23:21 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:23:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161002550.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>
References: <28140874.1203100079504.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802161002550.4838@rich.private.rrclark.net>
Message-ID: <47B7B6B9.50000@hotpop.com>

Rich Clark <rrclark at rrclark.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Feb 2008, R. Kannan wrote:
> 
>> I thought SCO was put away for good but they seem to find someone to keep funding their sinking business...
>>
>> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3728201/SCO+Plans+Rebound+Thanks+to+100M+Lifeline.htm
> 
> Read carefully PJ's assessment of the deal and its ties to Gates and 
> Microsoft through SCNP and its Saudi financier and also note webster's (a 
> retired lawyer who follows groklaw like a saint) comments regarding his 
> take on the deal. It may fly; it's been tailored to do so, but it can 
> still be headed off or slowed down by sufficient objection from the 
> parties in interest, i.e., Novell, IBM, Red Hat, etc. I'm not at all 
> surprised, though.
> 

What's truly sad is that there should even be a need for a site
like groklaw to exist.

(Note: I'm not complaining about the existance of groklaw..I'm
all for it!  I'm lamenting the need for it.)




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 02:11:00 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 02:11:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] HP-11C emulator
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47B7DE04.10806@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> I don't know if any of you have seen this, but it's extremely cool:
> 
> http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/
> 
> It's a program (for Linux) that emulates a lot of HP calculators,
> including the 11C (my favorite), 12C, 15C, and more.
> 
> Screenshot of it in HP-11C mode on my Fedora system:
> http://home.comcast.net/~micorral/hp11c.png

I've been unsuccessful in my search for software which emulates
modern HP calculators (circa 1986 HP-28C/HP-28S and the later
developments HP-40/48/49 (SX/GX/whatever).

I did find one, but it usually crashes whenever you try to do
an operation....

So finally, I just broke down and bought an HP-50G. $150.

VERY nice.  From what I understand, HP-49 series was
kinda junky.... lousy rubber-chiclet keypad (I seem to
recall seeing those, and the mere appearance screamed
"cheap").  The HP-50 is very much like the HP-48, except
a much faster CPU, more memory, SD card slots, and USB
port, and unfortunately, the reduction in size of the
enter-key from 2-columns wide to a single column :-(

Other annoyance with the HP-50...the HP-28's and HP-40's
had two manuals, both high quality (spiral wire bound, so
that they would lay flat on a table), the first being
something of an introductury "primer" which would get
you started with each of the major functional groups
within the software collection (statistical package,
calculus package, equation-writer, equation-solver
(numeric and symbolic), equation library,  unit conversion
library, etc.)  The 2nd manual was a complete catalog
of all several-hundred built-in operations and functions,
as well as documenting system flag values and the use
of defined memory addresses.

Now, the 1st manual is traditionally bound, is rather
poorly written, even though 95+% of the software inside
is just is a recompile of the same source code that was
on the HP-28 and HP-40 series, and so the manual didn't
even need to be rewritten!  The 2nd manual isn't even
included, other than as a PDF file, which, of course,
is formatted for 8.5 x 11, instead of the much more
handy size of the 28/40 manuals.  In this respect, I
am completely bummed out, because the 2nd manual is
what makes the calculator truly powerful in the hands
of its owner.  -- perusing it electronically is just not
the same as having it physically in my hands.

ARRRRGH!


Nevertheless, the actual calculator itself is
very good -- the keyboard is back to the quality
of the HP-11C/12C/13C/15C/28C/28S/40S/40SX, the
graphical screen is the largest ever.  The graphing
package now does 3-d, including with parametric
equations (such as x, y, and z are all functions
of some other variable, say t for time)...it now
handles rational values (integer fractions) as
integer fractions (of unlimited precision to the
limits of memory!) when doing ANY operation as
long as the rational value doesn't mix with any
floating-point value (ie. fp + rf => fp).




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 13:34:06 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:34:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B87724.3090202@arb.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B87724.3090202@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47B87E1E.8070704@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
> Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 16, 2008 6:26 PM, Dave Arbogast <mdlug3 at arb.net> wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
>>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
>>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
>>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
>>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>>
>>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
>>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
>>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
>>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
>>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
>>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
>>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>>
>>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
>>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
>>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
>>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
>>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>>>    
>>>
>> What model camera was this?  Of course, I am sure there are many ways
>> to accomplish what you believe has happened, but check out this
>> article...
>> http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>>  
>>
> Very interesting.... I was guessing they were using something from the 
> military to block laser guided whatever. It would be IR and certainly my 
> focusing system would not be happy about it. I tried to get another 
> chance but all the other motorcades last week were low value guests and 
> didn't have the tailing gunship.

I know that U.S., British, and Russian main battle tanks
have all had something referred to as an "IR-dazzler" which
are designed to defeat two common uses of IR-lasers on the
battle field -- IR-laser guidance systems (TOW-2, Javelin,
many of those "smart bombs" that the Air Force uses, etc),
and IR-laser rangefinder systems (found on tanks, and also
what modern autofocus SLR's use)


> 
> I have a Pentax K10 D. Its greatest asset is the anti-shake is in the 
> camera body so I can use my long glass lenses from my newspaper days. 
> Most of the others put the anti shake in the lens, rendering the older 
> high end lenses much less useful. Its over 10m per shot and allows full 
> manual for every option including turning off anti shake and auto focus. 
> Both are a single separate switch.
> 
> They claim it is rain proof and the body has water seals for everything, 
> but I worry about the lens, so I still shield it.
> 
> -dave
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 17:37:26 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:37:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B8B726.3000907@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
> At 01:06 PM 2/17/08, you wrote:
>> Kristian Erik Hermansen wrote:
>> http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/HP-Developing-Picture-Jamming-Technology-to-Block-Unwanted-Photographs-.htm
>>
>> Another reason to hanging on to my old 35mms.
> 
> It seems that even digital cameras should be able to be
 > unaffected, if either there is no provision for receiving
 > infrared signals or doing anything about them, or else the
 > IR sensor is blocked with something and you do the focusing
 > and everything else manually.
> 
> 
>> This seems like a very broad patent, surprise. I recently saw
 >> something like this in a movie.
> 
> 
> They don't even have one to show yet, and they're filing for a patent 
> on it!? WTF?

It has a use, quite obviously.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 17:40:48 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:40:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B8B6BF.8070106@arb.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<fe37588d0802161900j767b46f9n6eba4c09837079b4@mail.gmail.com>	<47B8779C.8050303@wideopenwest.com>	<6.2.3.4.0.20080217172523.028d1490@pop.gmail.com>
	<47B8B6BF.8070106@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47B8B7F0.8010009@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> Well, I suspect you have to go totally manual even with the 35mm (Yes, 
> still have my work horse from the day) as even if you are on manual 
> focus your metering system could be fooled by high IR jamming.

Most meters aren't sensitive to IR -- the photons don't carry
enough energy.  UV yes (much more energy), but not IR.

 > Sure wish I had the second chance last week.
> 
> -dave




From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 17 21:29:36 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:29:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] HP-11C emulator
In-Reply-To: <47B7DE04.10806@hotpop.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802170015410.8594@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47B7DE04.10806@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802172125180.4226@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-17, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> http://nonpareil.brouhaha.com/
>>
>> It's a program (for Linux) that emulates a lot of HP calculators,
>> including the 11C (my favorite), 12C, 15C, and more.
>
> I've been unsuccessful in my search for software which emulates
> modern HP calculators (circa 1986 HP-28C/HP-28S and the later
> developments HP-40/48/49 (SX/GX/whatever).

Here's one for the HP-42S: http://free42.sourceforge.net

It has a "realistic" skin that makes it look like the real thing:
http://home.comcast.net/~micorral/hp42s.png

Michael


From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Feb 17 22:08:03 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:08:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>
> Cool!
>   

Except only the fist CD seems to be at the site.




-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 17 23:19:01 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:19:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47B90735.5050308@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Cool!
>>   
> 
> Except only the fist CD seems to be at the site.
> 

Say again. over.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 04:53:05 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:53:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>	<47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>
	<b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B95581.9030405@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Feb 16, 2008 4:09 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> The US military is moving to OS X and Linux servers to
>> replace the current windows servers.
> 
> If that's true then how long will it be before Apple gets into
> military hardware?

> iTank
> iDestroyer
> iJet

wow..if you think military hardware is overpriced now...





From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Mon Feb 18 09:10:43 2008
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:10:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: For Sale
In-Reply-To: <8681A1B99F0B164D97CDA02C4E4938AE033ADB75@QL1EXVS4.mi.corp.rockfin.com>
Message-ID: <C3DEFC13.597DB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Guess I should have included my e-mail address - greg.wojtak at gmail.com



On 2/17/08 8:58 PM, "Wojtak, Greg" <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:

> I have one (1) Dell PowerConnect 2224 24 port switch that I want to get rid
> of.  It is unmanaged, 10/100 and I would like to get $25 for it.  Please
> contact me off-list if you are interested.
> 
> Greg
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From gib at juno.com  Mon Feb 18 09:34:10 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:34:10 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
Message-ID: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>

 
I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone like to post an opinion on any of these?

_____________________________________________________________
Best Commodity Trading Platforms.  Click Now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiejMCwiF1pUvNyYRzaPvSWgL1pVxkr1a4Du9cnVDAwLl9qZW/


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 12:17:22 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:17:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SCO is baack.....
In-Reply-To: <47B95581.9030405@hotpop.com>
References: <14741694.1203100421246.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<b52f2d360802151357x1ee4c363n63f883474a45e56b@mail.gmail.com>	<47B66BDA.6030501@thuemmel.com>	<b52f2d360802160456g729a8647g8222611c94f9a721@mail.gmail.com>	<47B750FE.2030703@hotpop.com>	<b02c40e90802171651q24463041u7bf1bd87a2942825@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B95581.9030405@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47B9BDA2.9000607@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> iTank
>> iDestroyer
>> iJet
>>     
>
> wow..if you think military hardware is overpriced now...

But it will be much cooler, and you gun can access the Internet.



-- 
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 12:34:27 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:34:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] club burn box
In-Reply-To: <47B90735.5050308@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47B90735.5050308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47B9C1A3.3070201@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Garry Stahl wrote:
>   
>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>     
>>> Cool!
>>>   
>>>       
>> Except only the fist CD seems to be at the site.
>>
>>     
>
> Say again. over.
>   

I have been unable to download anything but the first CD of some 20
odd.  That and the business card install. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 16 23:18:39 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 23:18:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in 
> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering 
> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter 
> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you 
> could say I'm not am amateur.)
> 
> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera. 
> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing 
> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with 
> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying 
> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their 
> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more 
> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
> 
> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone 
> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter 
> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool. 
> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery 
> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.

Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.

Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
*MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."

I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.




From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Mon Feb 18 14:02:54 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:02:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>


> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>
>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>
>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>
> Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.
>
> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>
> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.

Tinfoil hat alert!

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 14:01:45 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:01:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
> I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.
 > I've been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.
 > Would anyone like to post an opinion on any of these?
> 

sftp works very simply, it seems basically to be ftp
with an encryption layer thrown in. I've used (but not
managed) it, and it seems to be a well-rounded
recreation of ftp, the only serious deficiency seems to
be the lack of mget / mput.





From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 15:24:19 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:24:19 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802181224u2c3f1eefmfb29f36b433cd625@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 18, 2008 11:01 AM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> sftp works very simply, it seems basically to be ftp
> with an encryption layer thrown in. I've used (but not
> managed) it, and it seems to be a well-rounded
> recreation of ftp, the only serious deficiency seems to
> be the lack of mget / mput.

It's just SSH dude...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSH_file_transfer_protocol
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 15:42:36 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:42:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 18, 2008 9:34 AM, gib at juno.com <gib at juno.com> wrote:
>
> I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone like to post an opinion on any of these?

Haven't used them myself but here is a recent Debian howto for
encrypted FTP with TLS:
http://www.debianadmin.com/ftp-server-setup-with-tls-transport-layer-security-on-debian.html


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 15:46:36 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:46:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>  Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>  a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>  *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."

Where is your source for this information?

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 15:52:19 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:52:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>

Brian Hurley wrote:
>> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>>
>> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
>>     
>
> Tinfoil hat alert!
>   

Not really that is exactly what they say.  I've often wondered that
myself.  Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?  In
whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?

Might be better to wrap the tin foil around the camera.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 15:53:55 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:53:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B9F063.10309@comcast.net>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> Where is your source for this information?
>
>   
The label on the back of every class C device I own

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Feb 18 15:56:04 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:56:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Garry Stahl

> Not really that is exactly what they say.  I've often wondered that
> myself.  Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?  In
> whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?

 Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of that,
that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit power
levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices. They
may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that if a
legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough beans.
They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels (beyond
legal limits) to compensate.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317

 Only one thing is impossible for God: to find any sense in
       any copyright law on the planet. - Mark Twain
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 15:57:38 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:57:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802181257s706f4130m88ccdcc237eae9d2@mail.gmail.com>

sftp is by far the simplest and should be as secure as ssh, and you won't
need to set up any extra services on a box that you ssh into normally. Also
most ftp clients nowadays support sftp protocol (filezilla, fetch,
cyberduck, etc.) and the CLI is almost the exact same as regular ftp. Of
course, for me, a big problem with sftp is the lack of python support, but
it isn't really better for the other methods anyway.

On Feb 18, 2008 3:42 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 18, 2008 9:34 AM, gib at juno.com <gib at juno.com> wrote:
> >
> > I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've
> been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone like to
> post an opinion on any of these?
>
> Haven't used them myself but here is a recent Debian howto for
> encrypted FTP with TLS:
>
> http://www.debianadmin.com/ftp-server-setup-with-tls-transport-layer-security-on-debian.html
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From muteid10t at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 16:20:20 2008
From: muteid10t at gmail.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:20:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <225acb190802181257s706f4130m88ccdcc237eae9d2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>
	<225acb190802181257s706f4130m88ccdcc237eae9d2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52995d720802181320k11dbab94x882e33892a8581ac@mail.gmail.com>

 a google search for "sftp python" turns up several ways of doing sftp
w/ python....

On 2/18/08, Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
> sftp is by far the simplest and should be as secure as ssh, and you won't
> need to set up any extra services on a box that you ssh into normally. Also
> most ftp clients nowadays support sftp protocol (filezilla, fetch,
> cyberduck, etc.) and the CLI is almost the exact same as regular ftp. Of
> course, for me, a big problem with sftp is the lack of python support, but
> it isn't really better for the other methods anyway.
>
> On Feb 18, 2008 3:42 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 18, 2008 9:34 AM, gib at juno.com <gib at juno.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've
> > been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone like to
> > post an opinion on any of these?
> >
> > Haven't used them myself but here is a recent Debian howto for
> > encrypted FTP with TLS:
> >
> > http://www.debianadmin.com/ftp-server-setup-with-tls-transport-layer-security-on-debian.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Mon Feb 18 17:16:27 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:16:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>


If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.


>> From: Garry Stahl
>
>> Not really that is exactly what they say.  I've often wondered that
>> myself.  Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?  In
>> whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?
>
>  Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of
> that,
> that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit
> power
> levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
> interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices.
> They
> may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that
> if a
> legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough
> beans.
> They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels
> (beyond
> legal limits) to compensate.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317
>
>  Only one thing is impossible for God: to find any sense in
>        any copyright law on the planet. - Mark Twain
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or
> disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us
> immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 17:43:06 2008
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:43:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <52995d720802181320k11dbab94x882e33892a8581ac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<b02c40e90802181242g3764c476oe076249e528d9731@mail.gmail.com>
	<225acb190802181257s706f4130m88ccdcc237eae9d2@mail.gmail.com>
	<52995d720802181320k11dbab94x882e33892a8581ac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <225acb190802181443t5939898cg8a4a57de2a96144e@mail.gmail.com>

I know there are quite a few libraries out there including twisted conch,
but it's not in the default package and none are as simple as ftplib. Often
it's easier just to write sftp in bash for just a simple upload. Maybe
python 3.0?

On Feb 18, 2008 4:20 PM, Ron Blanchett <muteid10t at gmail.com> wrote:

>  a google search for "sftp python" turns up several ways of doing sftp
> w/ python....
>
> On 2/18/08, Michael <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
> > sftp is by far the simplest and should be as secure as ssh, and you
> won't
> > need to set up any extra services on a box that you ssh into normally.
> Also
> > most ftp clients nowadays support sftp protocol (filezilla, fetch,
> > cyberduck, etc.) and the CLI is almost the exact same as regular ftp. Of
> > course, for me, a big problem with sftp is the lack of python support,
> but
> > it isn't really better for the other methods anyway.
> >
> > On Feb 18, 2008 3:42 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 18, 2008 9:34 AM, gib at juno.com <gib at juno.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.  I've
> > > been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.  Would anyone
> like to
> > > post an opinion on any of these?
> > >
> > > Haven't used them myself but here is a recent Debian howto for
> > > encrypted FTP with TLS:
> > >
> > >
> http://www.debianadmin.com/ftp-server-setup-with-tls-transport-layer-security-on-debian.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > mdlug mailing list
> > > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 19:15:20 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:15:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of that,
> that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit power
> levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
> interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices. They
> may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that if a
> legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough beans.
> They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels (beyond
> legal limits) to compensate.
>   

Nor apparently sufficiently shield themselves from said interference.
That is the part I wonder about.  It's not sufficient to not cause
interference, which I think it should be, but you must allow
interference.  So If I come up with Garry's Superior RF shielding, that
keeps my device not only from interfering but from being interfered with
I can't use it?

The wording of the rule is odd to say the least.

-- 
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com


From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Feb 18 19:39:22 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:39:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BA253A.6060505@ameritech.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in 
>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering 
>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter 
>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you 
>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>
>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera. 
>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing 
>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with 
>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying 
>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their 
>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more 
>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>
>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone 
>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter 
>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool. 
>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery 
>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
> 
> Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.
> 
> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
> 
> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
> 

Though I'm too lazy to look up a link, I remember a year and a half, to
two years age thee were a few articles about new anti-camera technology
being used at high tech trade shows. It involved a sophisticated lens
detection system that recognized the aperture of a camera lens (or the
"black body" behind it). This camera detector was coupled was coupled
with a very bright, precisely directed strobe that blinded any cameras
detected.





From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 21:00:28 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:00:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.47ba383c.2e59c5fd.757e@zaurus>

* Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote on 14:01:45:
 
> sftp works very simply, it seems basically to be ftp
> with an encryption layer thrown in. I've used (but not
> managed) it, and it seems to be a well-rounded
> recreation of ftp, the only serious deficiency seems to
> be the lack of mget / mput.

    The implimentation on my Zaurus does in fact have mget and mput. My complaint with sftp and ftp is the inability to transfer a directory tree intact.

----

- Drew.





From drew4096 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 18 21:06:06 2008
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:06:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA253A.6060505@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <etPan.47ba398e.35c9b524.757e@zaurus>

* Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote on 19:39:22:

> two years age thee were a few articles about new anti-camera technology
> being used at high tech trade shows. It involved a sophisticated lens
> detection system that recognized the aperture of a camera lens (or the
> "black body" behind it). This camera detector was coupled was coupled
> with a very bright, precisely directed strobe that blinded any cameras
> detected.

How would such a system react to a video camera? It seems the strobe would have to be on practically continuously.

----

 - Drew.



From brian at dangerbacon.com  Mon Feb 18 21:47:15 2008
From: brian at dangerbacon.com (Brian)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:47:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
References: <20080218.093410.19144.1@webmail22.vgs.untd.com>
	<47B9D619.7010908@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802182147.22769.brian@dangerbacon.com>

On Monday 18 February 2008 02:01:45 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> gib at juno.com wrote:
> > I hoping to learn a little bit about encrypted file transfers.
> >
>  > I've been hearing about three solutions AS2, sftp and oftp.
>  > Would anyone like to post an opinion on any of these?
>
> sftp works very simply, it seems basically to be ftp
> with an encryption layer thrown in. I've used (but not
> managed) it, and it seems to be a well-rounded
> recreation of ftp, the only serious deficiency seems to
> be the lack of mget / mput.
>
>
mget and mput aren't necessary with sftp as globbing works with just regular 
get.  mget is still there, for some reason it doesn't show it when you run 
a "help" though...

-- 
Brian
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part.
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080218/8c74812a/attachment-0001.sig>

From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 15:13:37 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:13:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
>> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in
>>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering
>>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter
>>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you
>>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>>
>>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera.
>>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing
>>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with
>>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying
>>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their
>>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more
>>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>>
>>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone
>>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter
>>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool.
>>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery
>>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>> Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.
>>
>> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>>
>> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
> 
> Tinfoil hat alert!

If there's not a reason for this, then why doe the FCC *DEMAND*
that Class C consumer electronics accept interference causing
unwanted operation?

Basically, the designation specifically PROHIBITS (under
penalty of law) protecting the device from RFI.

As an Army National Guard soldier.. I have annual MANDATORY
civil-disturbance training (this being the primary state-level
role of the Guard).  Without going into detail, I can assure
you that there are reasons why government officials WANT
consumer electronic devices to be susceptible to any sort of
jamming system which the government has at its disposal.





From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Feb 18 22:20:43 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:20:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
> If there's not a reason for this, then why doe the FCC *DEMAND*
> that Class C consumer electronics accept interference causing
> unwanted operation?

You seem to be interpreting the word "accept" differently than I would.
I interpret it to mean that the user of the Class C device has no
recourse if any unwanted operation occurs as a result of EM
interference. I don't read it to mean that the device must be made
susceptible to such unwanted operation.


> Basically, the designation specifically PROHIBITS (under
> penalty of law) protecting the device from RFI.

I doubt this is a correct interpretation. It would amount to depriving
me of the use of my own property without due process.




From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 18 23:12:37 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:12:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>
	<47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47BA5735.8040304@comcast.net>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>   
>> If there's not a reason for this, then why doe the FCC *DEMAND*
>> that Class C consumer electronics accept interference causing
>> unwanted operation?
>>     
>
> You seem to be interpreting the word "accept" differently than I would.
> I interpret it to mean that the user of the Class C device has no
> recourse if any unwanted operation occurs as a result of EM
> interference. I don't read it to mean that the device must be made
> susceptible to such unwanted operation.
>
>   

Back of an RCA portable CD player and I quote:  "This device complied
with part 15 of the FCC rules.  Operation subject to the following two
conditions.  1)  This device may not cause any harmful interference and
2) This device MUST accept any interference which may cause undesired
operation."  and I end quote.

The word is "MUST".  I'm not saying why, but it is an awful funny thing
to require of anything.  No tin foil hat required.

But you might want to wrap your computer in it.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 22:41:06 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:41:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
> If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
> PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.

That only applies to sellers, not consumers.
If you don't believe me... READ IT.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 22:47:20 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:47:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BA5148.3090506@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>>  Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of that,
>> that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit power
>> levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
>> interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices. They
>> may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that if a
>> legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough beans.
>> They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels (beyond
>> legal limits) to compensate.
>>   
> 
> Nor apparently sufficiently shield themselves from said interference.
> That is the part I wonder about.  It's not sufficient to not cause
> interference, which I think it should be, but you must allow
> interference.  So If I come up with Garry's Superior RF shielding, that
> keeps my device not only from interfering but from being interfered with
> I can't use it?
> 
> The wording of the rule is odd to say the least.

Come on..think like a power-hungry politician...especially a
mayor or governor, who "doesn't want 'trouble'."

The purpose of the FCC mandate is to allow the police to be
able to disable all consumer electronic devices within an
area ON COMMAND if it is the will of the mayor or governor
for them to do so.

Not just shutting down radios and TVs
Shutting down clocks, microwave oven, ... any electronic
device which people have come to rely on, and whose way
of life becomes disrupted if all of them were suddenly
shut down.

What's the first thing the police do in a "seige" situation --
cut off the electricity and water, and oftentimes they will
follow shortly with annoying noise-generators (crappy
music, recordings of animals dying violently, etc.).




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 22:50:44 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:50:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>	<47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47B9E6F1.4090605@hotpop.com>
	<47BA4B0B.9070502@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47BA5214.7060801@hotpop.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> If there's not a reason for this, then why doe the FCC *DEMAND*
>> that Class C consumer electronics accept interference causing
>> unwanted operation?
> 
> You seem to be interpreting the word "accept" differently than I would.
> I interpret it to mean that the user of the Class C device has no
> recourse if any unwanted operation occurs as a result of EM
> interference.

That's correct.  And why does the FCC *DEMAND* that a Class C
device *not* be protected from interference resulting in
unwanted operation.

Hint: civil disturbance.

 > I don't read it to mean that the device must be made
> susceptible to such unwanted operation.

That and more.

> 
> 
>> Basically, the designation specifically PROHIBITS (under
>> penalty of law) protecting the device from RFI.
> 
> I doubt this is a correct interpretation. It would amount to depriving
> me of the use of my own property without due process.

If you want an RFI-proof device, then you don't purchase
a Class-C consumer electronic device.

And the government (unfortunately) has usurped a lot of
unconstitutional authority starting in the 1930's.




From tcameron at redhat.com  Mon Feb 18 23:25:43 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:25:43 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Red Hat is Hiring
In-Reply-To: <47A6AE34.9010604@redhat.com>
References: <47A6AE34.9010604@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <47BA5A47.1070301@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Thomas Cameron (Red Hat) wrote:
| Howdy All -
|
| My name is Thomas Cameron, and I am the solutions architect (a.k.a.
| sales engineer) team lead for the central region of the United States.
| I am not a recruiter, I'm a technical employee at Red Hat based out of
| Austin, Texas.
|
| We're looking for sales engineers, consultants and technical trainers in
| the Detroit area.

Just a reminder - I'll be in Chicago next week doing interviews.  If
anyone has enterprise Linux experience and is interested in coming to
work at Red Hat, please fill out an online resume at
https://redhat.ats.hrsmart.com/cgi-bin/a/editprofile.cgi and send me a
soft copy of your resume and your desired position ASAP.

Thanks!
- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHulpHmzle50YHwaARAovXAJ9lALvKu5HKmtBbCa5YN3nhPqqRPQCgwr0P
N5U0u8qgj3Apz7ExD6nuhsE=
=5aDX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 23:04:42 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:04:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA253A.6060505@ameritech.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<47BA253A.6060505@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47BA555A.70005@hotpop.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>> I was just in DC with my top of the line SLR digital camera. I was in 
>>> the right place at the right time to take photos of a motorcade entering 
>>> the big house. I was about 12 feet from them and 16 feet from the inter 
>>> gate as it opened. (I shot for several newspapers in the day, so you 
>>> could say I'm not am amateur.)
>>>
>>> OK, shoot, shoot, shoot.  Daylight, immediate response pro camera. 
>>> What's the problem ?  This was a high raking official as the tailing 
>>> S.S. Tahoe had the back 3 windows open and 3 armored soldiers with 
>>> fingers on their machine guns. Yes, they gave me the evil eye for trying 
>>> to take their photo from 4 meters, but my camera refused to take their 
>>> photo.... it took many photos minutes before they arrived and many more 
>>> minutes after the iron gates closed behind them.
>>>
>>> The only explanation is IR / RF  jamming of my system. I wish I had gone 
>>> to manual focus as I do often, but I have never held down the shutter 
>>> release with no result.  The guys following up the rear were too cool. 
>>> None of the other motorcades we saw that day had the heavy artillery 
>>> exposed in the trailing SUV ready to fire.
>> Very interesting.  It could be IR jamming the IR system.
>>
>> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>>
>> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
>>
> 
> Though I'm too lazy to look up a link, I remember a year and a half, to
> two years age thee were a few articles about new anti-camera technology
> being used at high tech trade shows. It involved a sophisticated lens
> detection system that recognized the aperture of a camera lens (or the
> "black body" behind it). This camera detector was coupled was coupled
> with a very bright, precisely directed strobe that blinded any cameras
> detected.

I believe I've seen images where such anti-photography technology
was in place (usually with a caption by the photographer indicating
that he/she wonders what the heck happened to ruin the shot).





From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Feb 18 23:47:02 2008
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:47:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	(brian@detroitindustrial.org)
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <20080219044702.5875F19E60C@starfox.local>

Gary et al,

>>  Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>>  a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>>  *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
> Where is your source for this information?

I'm not sure when the "class C" stickers became popular.

My 1987 Realistic Chronosette fm/am/alarm clock has no
"warning sticker", though it does have an FCC ID.

My 1994 Hewlitt Packard A4033A monitor (with FCC ID) says
   "This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC rules.
    Operation is subject to the following two conditions:
    (1) this device may not cause harmful interference, and
    (2) this device must accept any interference received,
    including interference that may cause undesired operation."

My 2006 Dorcey hand-cranked flashlight (with no FCC ID) says
   "FCC Class C
    Operation is subject to the following two conditions:
    (1) this device may not cause harmful interference, and
    (2) this device must accept any interference received,
    including interference that may cause undesired operation."

I am quite confident that my flashlight radiates less electromagnetic
energy than it reflects on a sunny day.

The FCC rule involved:
  "15.5   General conditions of operation.
   (a) Persons operating intentional or unintentional radiators shall not be
   deemed to have any vested or recognizable right to continued use of any
   given  frequency  by  virtue of prior registration or certification of
   equipment,  or,  for power line carrier systems, on the basis of prior
   notification of use pursuant to  Sec. 90.63(g) of this chapter.

   (b) Operation of an intentional, unintentional, or incidental radiator is
   subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused and that
   interference must be accepted that may be caused by the operation of an
   authorized radio station, by another intentional or unintentional radiator,
   by industrial, scientific and medical (ISM) equipment, or by an incidental
   radiator.

   (c) The operator of a radio frequency device shall be required to cease
   operating the device upon notification by a Commission representative that
   the device is causing harmful interference. Operation shall not resume until
   the condition causing the harmful interference has been corrected."
	-- 47 CFR 15.5
           United States Code of Federal Regulations
	   Title 47 Part 15 Section 5
	   http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?
	          TITLE=47&PART=15&SECTION=5&YEAR=2005&TYPE=PDF

The jurisdiction involved:
  "15.1   Scope of this part.
   (a)  This  part  sets  out the regulations under which an intentional,
   unintentional, or incidental radiator may be operated without an individual
   license. It also contains the technical specifications, administrative
   requirements and other conditions relating to the marketing of part 15
   devices.

   (b) The operation of an intentional or unintentional radiator that is not in
   accordance with the regulations in this part must be licensed pursuant to
   the provisions of section 301 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended,
   unless otherwise exempted from the licensing requirements elsewhere in this
   chapter.

   (c)  Unless  specifically  exempted,  the operation or marketing of an
   intentional or unintentional radiator that is not in compliance with the
   administrative  and technical provisions in this part, including prior
   Commission authorization or verification, as appropriate, is prohibited
   under section 302 of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, and subpart
   I of part 2 of this chapter. The equipment authorization and verification
   procedures are detailed in subpart J of part 2 of this chapter."
	-- 47 CFR 15.1

Why class C (intentional radiator)?
Why not class B (unintentional radiator)?

> Not really that is exactly what they say.
> I've often wondered that myself.
> Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?
> In whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?

By Fermat's principle, shielding works both ways.
Shielding against interference, is also shielding against radiation.

As written above, 15.5, you may shield, and are required to shield
or otherwise reduce unwanted emissions (15.209),
if necessary to prevent excessive radiation.



The danger of course is that as "interference must be accepted that
may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station"
becomes "interference must be accepted ..." and then becomes
"[consumer electronic devices must be susceptible to any sort of
  jamming system which the government has at its disposal]"

The problem of course, is that like gun control laws,
legal restrictions on freedom-of-reception restrict the law-abiding
to a much greater degree than the criminal.

<SATIRE>
If you prohibit fire extinguishers
(only those careless with fire need them),
you may limit the law-abiding to cold cuts and salads,
but you'll do little or nothing to stop arsonists (or those who are careless).
</SATIRE>



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
 or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom
 of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
 assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
   -- United States Constitution, Ammendment I
	   becomes
"Congress shall not support any religion ..."
	   becomes
"[government must prohibit free exercise of religion in public]"





-- 
Bob

  Caution: all living mortals who read this must die.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 22:39:59 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:39:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net>
	<47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>	<61822.136.2.1.101.1203361374.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BA4F8F.4030905@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Brian Hurley wrote:
>>> Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>>> a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>>> *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
>>>
>>> I've seen this even on my top of the line HP calculators.
>>>     
>> Tinfoil hat alert!
>>   
> 
> Not really that is exactly what they say.  I've often wondered that
> myself.  Why not allow it to be shielded to prevent interference?  In
> whose interest is requiring interference to be allowed?

the government...so that if authorities want to, they can disrupt
the operation of all consumer goods within an area of interest.

For example, in breaking up a riot, if the devices *MUST* accept
RF interference, then it's very easy to prevent them from being
used as a means of coordination among the "ring-leaders".

This means that if you want to have a well-run riot, you need
to invest in more expensive equipment. :-)

> 
> Might be better to wrap the tin foil around the camera.
> 
> 





From mdlug3 at arb.net  Tue Feb 19 01:13:22 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:13:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <20080219044702.5875F19E60C@starfox.local>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<20080219044702.5875F19E60C@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47BA7382.6070405@arb.net>


>>nterest is requiring interference to be allowed?
>>    
>>
>
>By Fermat's principle, shielding works both ways.
>Shielding against interference, is also shielding against radiation.
>
>As written above, 15.5, you may shield, and are required to shield
>or otherwise reduce unwanted emissions (15.209),
>if necessary to prevent excessive radiation.
>
>
>
>The danger of course is that as "interference must be accepted that
>may be caused by the operation of an authorized radio station"
>becomes "interference must be accepted ..." and then becomes
>"[consumer electronic devices must be susceptible to any sort of
>  jamming system which the government has at its disposal]"
>
>The problem of course, is that like gun control laws,
>legal restrictions on freedom-of-reception restrict the law-abiding
>to a much greater degree than the criminal.
>
><SATIRE>
>If you prohibit fire extinguishers
>(only those careless with fire need them),
>you may limit the law-abiding to cold cuts and salads,
>but you'll do little or nothing to stop arsonists (or those who are careless).
></SATIRE>
>
>
>  
>
Yeah Rob,  unfortunately, the current government (Senate included) does 
not follow the Constitution nor the already enacted laws - Example being 
the Senate's version of the FISA "alteration" to not only allow the 
current Executive branch's desires, but to give Big Telcom immunity from 
breaking already existing FISA law. For me, forget about all the water 
under the bridge, if you retroactively change law, what is "The Rule of 
Law" ???

-dave


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Tue Feb 19 01:36:46 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:36:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>
References: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165465@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<47BA1F98.3050605@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BA78FE.5010100@arb.net>



Garry Stahl wrote:

>Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  
>
>> Well, it's not quite intended like that. Don't forget the other part of that,
>>that it must not cause interference. The intent of the law is to limit power
>>levels so that the signals generated by the device as it operates don't
>>interfere with the operations of other, legally-more-important devices. They
>>may in fact be shielded, but the intent of the law is to make it so that if a
>>legally-more-important device interferes with a less-important one, tough beans.
>>They can't, say, detect the interference and boost their power levels (beyond
>>legal limits) to compensate.
>>  
>>    
>>
>
>Nor apparently sufficiently shield themselves from said interference.
>That is the part I wonder about.  It's not sufficient to not cause
>interference, which I think it should be, but you must allow
>interference.  So If I come up with Garry's Superior RF shielding, that
>keeps my device not only from interfering but from being interfered with
>I can't use it?
>
>The wording of the rule is odd to say the least.
>
>  
>
OK, My K10D has the Part 15 rule requiring it to "must accept any 
interference received including interference that may cause undesirable 
operation"

But it goes on to say -

"Changes or modification not approved by the party responsible for the 
compliance could void the user's authority to operate the equipment."

So much for Tin Foil.  Sure wish I had a second chance to photo graph a 
high value person.

-dave


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Feb 18 23:02:25 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:02:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47B79B44.9070909@arb.net> <47B7B59F.2020605@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802181246s74b88c55oaf8b7611e68c5ed8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BA54D1.6050900@hotpop.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>>  Alternate theory: have you ever noticed how the definition of
>>  a Class C consumer electronics device states, "this device
>>  *MUST* accept interference causing unwanted operation."
> 
> Where is your source for this information?
> 

The back of nearly any electronic device.  It's everywhere.

Picking something at random, the first object I picked up
was my new 2.5-inch SATA drive/USB 2.0 carrier, which has
the typical wording on the back:

	This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC rules.
	Operation is subject to the following two conditions:

	(1) This device may not cause harmful interference

	(2) This device must accept any interference recieved,
	including interference that may cause undesired operation.

	[FCC logo]   Tested to comply with FCC standards.



The only difference from years ago is that in the 70's
and 80's, there was a a title at the top, which said
"Class C consumer device."

In any event, you'll find it on all sorts of things.
TVs. Radios, alarm clocks.

Interestingly, my $150 HP-50G does not carry this
legend, but a $10 scientific calculator does.

The back of the HP-50G says:
		Complies with ICES-003, Class B



Class B devices cannot emit interference, but
ARE ALLOWED to reject interference.




From jjn at nuge.com  Tue Feb 19 04:16:10 2008
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:16:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA78FE.5010100@arb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0802190343120.25249-100000@home.nuge.com>

Greetings,

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008, Dave Arbogast wrote:

> OK, My K10D has the Part 15 rule requiring it to "must accept any 
> interference received including interference that may cause undesirable 
> operation"
> 
> But it goes on to say -
> 
> "Changes or modification not approved by the party responsible for the 
> compliance could void the user's authority to operate the equipment."
> 
> So much for Tin Foil.  Sure wish I had a second chance to photo graph a 
> high value person.

   But *if* these "important people" *are* illuminating themselves with
high levels of IR, wouldn't that be a VERY bad way of identifying the
target to any snipers???  DUH???  Just aim at the big bright spot on the 
IR scope and pull the trigger.  Or set the road bomb to go off when high 
IR levels are detected.  Again...DUH???

   And as for "MUST accept interference"... That is the way to restrict
the consumer product market from having any recourse to complain when a
perfectly good transmitter (AM/FM/TV broadcast, Ham, Police/Fire,
Aviation, etc.) interferes with them. 

   I recall back in the 70's when the ARRL (Amateur Radio Relay League)
had to work with the FCC to tighten restrictions on imported TV sets that
were *easily* interfered with by Amateur radio transmitters.  The public
was in an uproar that "those damn Hams" were interfereing, when in fact
the public were being sold incredibly crappy TV sets!  We got that problem
fixed and the Part-15 rules were tightened up quite a bit :)

   We (the Hams & the ARRL) have been having the same effect on Part-15
restrictions regarding BPL (Broadband over Power Line).  This is where
broadband Internet is delivered over the power lines.  The power lines
radiate the RF signal FAR more strongly than Part 15 allows.  Their
lobbiests even got the FCC to "relax" the requirements for awhile. But we
have been firmly in the face of the FCC and the BPL manufactureres and
system operators for the past few years *proving* the level and degree of
interference created by such systems.  Several BPL operators have even
shut down service and gone away because they could not bring their systems
into accordance with the limits :)

   And while I'm on my soapbox...  Please keep in mind that channels 1
thru 6 on your precious 2.4 GHz WiFi device *belong* to the Amateur Radio
service under Part 97.  The WiFi folks are "secondary users" under Part 15
and "MUST accept any interference" from us Hams.  Periodically a few Hams
in Livingston, Oakland, Macomb, Wayne and Washtenaw counties get to
playing with our HSMM (High Speed Multi Media) stations and some of those 
channels go Bye-Bye!  As we are allowed 1000 WATTS on those frequencies :)

   Welcome to reality.  Welcome to 'shared frequency resources'.  And
welcome to an electronic world where LOTS of things emit energy where we
would rather they not.  And thusly, electronic devices must be designed
and built to withstand that very same jungle of EMI/RFI signals.

   Enjoy!
      --- Jay Nugent  WB8TKL
             
"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
 be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0850/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  3:01am  up 118 days,  3:58,  5 users,  load average: 0.31, 0.35, 0.30



From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Tue Feb 19 08:55:00 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:55:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802190855.00939.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Monday 18 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Brian Hurley wrote:
> > If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
> > PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.
>
> That only applies to sellers, not consumers.
> If you don't believe me... READ IT.

It seems that paranoia and lack of a sense or humor go together.


-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Feb 19 09:54:36 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:54:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <200802190855.00939.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165466@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Brian Hurley

> It seems that paranoia and lack of a sense or humor go together.

 Sometimes, the fact that someone didn't laugh at your joke is *not* an
indication that they don't have a sense of humor. Sometimes it's a reflection
on the joke itself.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                             (313) 227-2317

  "We've got no place in this outfit for good losers.
  We want tough hombres who will go in there and win!"
            - Admiral Jonas Ingram, 1926
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 10:53:54 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:53:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
Message-ID: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Currently I'm building a home office infrastructure, and I'm taking a good look at CPU's.  It seems that Intel offers CPU's with more L2 cache.  And the Q6600 is a good example and runs about $250 OEM +/- where the AMD Phenom starts at 199.00.  Both have 128k L1 cache, but the Intel Q6700  has 4M L2 Cache in addition to 128k L1 But is a wopping $539.00 

I do Have E6600 and E6400 Intel chips and am very happy with them.  The E6600 runs Open Suse 10.3 and the E6400 runs Windows XP (yes, there are a hand full of application that run only on windows that I need).  Both with  good SATA hard drives are quite responsive.

The Techs tell me that the cache helps make the system faster, and that is the $300 difference in the Q6600 and the Q6700. Currently I'm happy with my E6400 & E6600.  

Does any know what performance yield is the extra cache on the Q6700?

David C. Lane 

 



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 11:14:00 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:14:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
Message-ID: <192242.43827.qm@web37912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Last weekend I spent building and installing an IPCOP resource. the glitch of the build and install was a faulty hub.  Next weekend I'm going to get a netgear for the DMZ orange zone.

It looks like things  are moving a long, thanks guys.

David C. Lane 





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Feb 19 11:13:57 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:13:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080219161301.467BFC0CA@impelind.com>


What is the primary function of the majority of the PCs you will be using?

What OS/Applications will be installed?

Will these PCs only be for office or will they also be for "Play" use, as in
Video Games?

Are a small number of PCs going to be installed with Specialty Software
(Analytics, CAD/CAM, etc.)?

If you can answer those questions first, then the proverbial "we" will be
able to provide you with better information.


-Rob



> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of David Lane
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:54 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
> 
> Currently I'm building a home office infrastructure, and I'm 
> taking a good look at CPU's.  It seems that Intel offers 
> CPU's with more L2 cache.  And the Q6600 is a good example 
> and runs about $250 OEM +/- where the AMD Phenom starts at 
> 199.00.  Both have 128k L1 cache, but the Intel Q6700  has 4M 
> L2 Cache in addition to 128k L1 But is a wopping $539.00 
> 
> I do Have E6600 and E6400 Intel chips and am very happy with 
> them.  The E6600 runs Open Suse 10.3 and the E6400 runs 
> Windows XP (yes, there are a hand full of application that 
> run only on windows that I need).  Both with  good SATA hard 
> drives are quite responsive.
> 
> The Techs tell me that the cache helps make the system 
> faster, and that is the $300 difference in the Q6600 and the 
> Q6700. Currently I'm happy with my E6400 & E6600.  
> 
> Does any know what performance yield is the extra cache on the Q6700?
> 
> David C. Lane 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>       
> ______________________________________________________________
> ______________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From jcbender at bendorius.com  Tue Feb 19 11:30:19 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:30:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Opinions on AS2, sftp and oftp
In-Reply-To: <etPan.47ba383c.2e59c5fd.757e@zaurus>
References: <etPan.47ba383c.2e59c5fd.757e@zaurus>
Message-ID: <47BB041B.7060105@bendorius.com>

Drew wrote:
> * Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote on 14:01:45:
> 
>     The implimentation on my Zaurus does in fact have mget and mput. 
>     My complaint with sftp and ftp is the inability to transfer 
 >     a directory tree intact.
 >
	rsync does a better job of that anyway (and usually defaults to using 
SSH as the transport these days).

	Additionally, "scp -rp" will recursively copy directories and preserve 
modes and the various file timestamps.

	All that being said, if you really *want* to, you can use SSH and tar 
to do this as well.  It goes something like this (and this is from 
memory, so it *might* be a wee bit inaccurate):

 From target host:
ssh user at hostname "cd <source directory> && tar -cf - ." | tar -xvf -
(assumes your *local* cd is where you want the files to end up)

To target host:
tar -cf - . | ssh user at hostname "cd <target directory> && tar -xvf -"
(assumes that your *local* cd is where you want your files to come from)

Add or subtract tar options to fit your particular needs.


Personally, I prefer just using rsync over SSH for this sort of thing.


-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Tue Feb 19 13:18:48 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:18:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0802190343120.25249-100000@home.nuge.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0802190343120.25249-100000@home.nuge.com>
Message-ID: <47BB1D88.1060804@arb.net>



Jay Nugent wrote:

>
>
>   But *if* these "important people" *are* illuminating themselves with
>high levels of IR, wouldn't that be a VERY bad way of identifying the
>target to any snipers???  DUH???  Just aim at the big bright spot on the 
>IR scope and pull the trigger.  Or set the road bomb to go off when high 
>IR levels are detected.  Again...DUH???
>
This was DC at the Whitehouse. The number of visibly armed officers was 
many orders of magnitude higher than I have ever seen in Michigan. 
Someone trying to ambush the random routes these motorcades take would 
likely be spotted long before they could do anything. :-)  There were a 
number of roof tops with "tents" on them nearby and people in all black 
walking about the edge of the building with devices in their hands. :-) 
For all I know they were pointing a dazzler device at me.

On bright spots, I would guess they would use the Dazzlers only when 
they see a threat - Like the B-52 jamming officers only use "Papa Jam" 
when they can't isolate the in bound threat.

-dave


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Feb 19 15:31:26 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:31:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <192242.43827.qm@web37912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <192242.43827.qm@web37912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802191231j2ff19d57s2e11ec04cb086cfd@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 19, 2008 11:14 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Last weekend I spent building and installing an IPCOP resource. the glitch of the build and install was a faulty hub.  Next weekend I'm going to get a netgear for the DMZ orange zone.
>
> It looks like things  are moving a long, thanks guys.
>
> David C. Lane

If you need more subnets try this add-on:
http://www.ban-solms.de/t/IPCop-xtiface.html

The problem with add-ons is that you often have to reinstall them
after any IPCop updates.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 15:46:45 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:46:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
Message-ID: <218142.38952.qm@web37909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you.  

For now I just need the basic zones.  However it may make since to have a few green sub-nets.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:31:26 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] IPCOP install


On 
Feb 
19, 
2008 
11:14 
AM, 
David 
Lane 
<dcl400m at yahoo.com> 
wrote:
> 
Last 
weekend 
I 
spent 
building 
and 
installing 
an 
IPCOP 
resource. 
the 
glitch 
of 
the 
build 
and 
install 
was 
a 
faulty 
hub.  
Next 
weekend 
I'm 
going 
to 
get 
a 
netgear 
for 
the 
DMZ 
orange 
zone.
>
> 
It 
looks 
like 
things  
are 
moving 
a 
long, 
thanks 
guys.
>
> 
David 
C. 
Lane

If 
you 
need 
more 
subnets 
try 
this 
add-on:
http://www.ban-solms.de/t/IPCop-xtiface.html

The 
problem 
with 
add-ons 
is 
that 
you 
often 
have 
to 
reinstall 
them
after 
any 
IPCop 
updates.
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 15:49:59 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:49:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
Message-ID: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Can you use 192.168.x.x and mask 255.255.0.0?

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:31:26 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] IPCOP install


On 
Feb 
19, 
2008 
11:14 
AM, 
David 
Lane 
<dcl400m at yahoo.com> 
wrote:
> 
Last 
weekend 
I 
spent 
building 
and 
installing 
an 
IPCOP 
resource. 
the 
glitch 
of 
the 
build 
and 
install 
was 
a 
faulty 
hub.  
Next 
weekend 
I'm 
going 
to 
get 
a 
netgear 
for 
the 
DMZ 
orange 
zone.
>
> 
It 
looks 
like 
things  
are 
moving 
a 
long, 
thanks 
guys.
>
> 
David 
C. 
Lane

If 
you 
need 
more 
subnets 
try 
this 
add-on:
http://www.ban-solms.de/t/IPCop-xtiface.html

The 
problem 
with 
add-ons 
is 
that 
you 
often 
have 
to 
reinstall 
them
after 
any 
IPCop 
updates.
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From danno at umich.edu  Tue Feb 19 15:47:22 2008
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:47:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080219204722.GA8254@maniac.deathstar.org>

If you are doing processor-intensive stuff AND the data set and the
code are small enough that it fits into whatever cache you have,
you will have much improved performance vs. not fitting in your
cache.

For typical "home office" applications you probably won't notice
much if any difference.  you probably won't notice a whole lot of
difference between one of these and a $75 Athlon X2.  

without knowing more about what "home office" means to you, I'd
suggest you spend the difference in price on more system memory rather
than a better CPU.

On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 07:53:54AM -0800, David Lane wrote:
> Currently I'm building a home office infrastructure, and I'm taking a good look at CPU's.  It seems that Intel offers CPU's with more L2 cache.  And the Q6600 is a good example and runs about $250 OEM +/- where the AMD Phenom starts at 199.00.  Both have 128k L1 cache, but the Intel Q6700  has 4M L2 Cache in addition to 128k L1 But is a wopping $539.00 
> 
> I do Have E6600 and E6400 Intel chips and am very happy with them.  The E6600 runs Open Suse 10.3 and the E6400 runs Windows XP (yes, there are a hand full of application that run only on windows that I need).  Both with  good SATA hard drives are quite responsive.
> 
> The Techs tell me that the cache helps make the system faster, and that is the $300 difference in the Q6600 and the Q6700. Currently I'm happy with my E6400 & E6600.  
> 
> Does any know what performance yield is the extra cache on the Q6700?
> 
> David C. Lane 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 16:31:38 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:31:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
Message-ID: <532791.68867.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The Next resource I'm looking it is a database server (MySQL)/Intranet HTML server .



----- Original Message ----
From: Dan Pritts <danno at umich.edu>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:47:22 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel


If 
you 
are 
doing 
processor-intensive 
stuff 
AND 
the 
data 
set 
and 
the
code 
are 
small 
enough 
that 
it 
fits 
into 
whatever 
cache 
you 
have,
you 
will 
have 
much 
improved 
performance 
vs. 
not 
fitting 
in 
your
cache.

For 
typical 
"home 
office" 
applications 
you 
probably 
won't 
notice
much 
if 
any 
difference.  
you 
probably 
won't 
notice 
a 
whole 
lot 
of
difference 
between 
one 
of 
these 
and 
a 
$75 
Athlon 
X2.  

without 
knowing 
more 
about 
what 
"home 
office" 
means 
to 
you, 
I'd
suggest 
you 
spend 
the 
difference 
in 
price 
on 
more 
system 
memory 
rather
than 
a 
better 
CPU.

On 
Tue, 
Feb 
19, 
2008 
at 
07:53:54AM 
-0800, 
David 
Lane 
wrote:
> 
Currently 
I'm 
building 
a 
home 
office 
infrastructure, 
and 
I'm 
taking 
a 
good 
look 
at 
CPU's.  
It 
seems 
that 
Intel 
offers 
CPU's 
with 
more 
L2 
cache.  
And 
the 
Q6600 
is 
a 
good 
example 
and 
runs 
about 
$250 
OEM 
+/- 
where 
the 
AMD 
Phenom 
starts 
at 
199.00.  
Both 
have 
128k 
L1 
cache, 
but 
the 
Intel 
Q6700  
has 
4M 
L2 
Cache 
in 
addition 
to 
128k 
L1 
But 
is 
a 
wopping 
$539.00 
> 
> 
I 
do 
Have 
E6600 
and 
E6400 
Intel 
chips 
and 
am 
very 
happy 
with 
them.  
The 
E6600 
runs 
Open 
Suse 
10.3 
and 
the 
E6400 
runs 
Windows 
XP 
(yes, 
there 
are 
a 
hand 
full 
of 
application 
that 
run 
only 
on 
windows 
that 
I 
need).  
Both 
with  
good 
SATA 
hard 
drives 
are 
quite 
responsive.
> 
> 
The 
Techs 
tell 
me 
that 
the 
cache 
helps 
make 
the 
system 
faster, 
and 
that 
is 
the 
$300 
difference 
in 
the 
Q6600 
and 
the 
Q6700. 
Currently 
I'm 
happy 
with 
my 
E6400 
& 
E6600.  
> 
> 
Does 
any 
know 
what 
performance 
yield 
is 
the 
extra 
cache 
on 
the 
Q6700?
> 
> 
David 
C. 
Lane 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>  
  
  
 
____________________________________________________________________________________
> 
Never 
miss 
a 
thing.  
Make 
Yahoo 
your 
home 
page. 
> 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> 
_______________________________________________
> 
mdlug 
mailing 
list
> 
mdlug at mdlug.org
> 
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan 
pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Feb 19 11:46:56 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:46:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47BB0800.9010200@hotpop.com>

David Lane wrote:
> Currently I'm building a home office infrastructure, and I'm taking a good look at CPU's.  It seems that Intel offers CPU's with more L2 cache.  And the Q6600 is a good example and runs about $250 OEM +/- where the AMD Phenom starts at 199.00.  Both have 128k L1 cache, but the Intel Q6700  has 4M L2 Cache in addition to 128k L1 But is a wopping $539.00 
> 
> I do Have E6600 and E6400 Intel chips and am very happy with them.  The E6600 runs Open Suse 10.3 and the E6400 runs Windows XP (yes, there are a hand full of application that run only on windows that I need).  Both with  good SATA hard drives are quite responsive.
> 
> The Techs tell me that the cache helps make the system faster, and that is the $300 difference in the Q6600 and the Q6700. Currently I'm happy with my E6400 & E6600.  
> 
> Does any know what performance yield is the extra cache on the Q6700?

Phenom has an L3 cache, too.

This allows the L2 to be smaller (faster) without imposing a huge
performance of hit of going out to main memory when a loop exceeds
the size of the L2.

> 
> David C. Lane 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Feb 19 11:55:51 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 11:55:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [opensuse] System Lockups Anyone?
In-Reply-To: <47B9DD3D.3070001@ij.net>
References: <47B9DD3D.3070001@ij.net>
Message-ID: <47BB0A17.4010201@hotpop.com>


No thanks.
Had one before.
Didn't like it.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Feb 19 17:24:16 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:24:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <20080219204722.GA8254@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <362290.75838.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20080219204722.GA8254@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <47BB5710.2040206@hotpop.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> If you are doing processor-intensive stuff AND the data set and the
> code are small enough that it fits into whatever cache you have,
> you will have much improved performance vs. not fitting in your
> cache.
> 
> For typical "home office" applications you probably won't notice
> much if any difference.  you probably won't notice a whole lot of
> difference between one of these and a $75 Athlon X2.  
> 
> without knowing more about what "home office" means to you, I'd
> suggest you spend the difference in price on more system memory rather
> than a better CPU.

I agree.

Dollars spent being equal... More memory on a slower CPU will
always yield higher performance.




From danno at umich.edu  Tue Feb 19 21:09:09 2008
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:09:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <532791.68867.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <532791.68867.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20080220020908.GA86637@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 01:31:38PM -0800, David Lane wrote:
> The Next resource I'm looking it is a database server (MySQL)/Intranet HTML server .
> 

VERY broadly speaking, for most DB applications, if you have to
choose between CPU cache and more main memory, choose more main
memory.

Next (or perhaps *before* main memory) choose faster hard disks,
and/or a faster RAID controller.

If you're sure you'll have enough main memory & fast enough disks,
more CPU cache can't hurt.  

Probably, though, a better buying strategy would be to try your
application on the hardware you already have and see where the
bottleneck is.

danno


From tony at bemushosting.com  Tue Feb 19 23:19:36 2008
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:19:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>

I believe you can not because the 192.168.x.x ip range is a Class C
range with a default subnet mask of 255.255.255.0.  If you need to use
the 255.255.0.0 subnet then start with a class B address like
172.16.x.x 

Tony Bemus


On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 12:49 -0800, David Lane wrote:

> Can you use 192.168.x.x and mask 255.255.0.0?
> 
> David 
> 




From tcameron at redhat.com  Tue Feb 19 23:31:18 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:31:18 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>
References: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>
Message-ID: <47BBAD16.2090409@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Sure you can!  You can subnet or supernet all you like as long as you
have control over the network.

For instance, if I want to supernet - make a standard class C-ish
network larger - I can twiddle the netmask like so:

192.168.0.0/255.255.254.0

That gives me a network which starts at 192.168.0.0 and ends at
192.168.1.255, or 512 addresses.  Perfectly legal.

More common example...  If I wanted to use only a small portion of a
large class A-ish network like 10.0.0.0 (which would "normally" have a
255.0.0.0 subnet mask), I can do this:

10.20.50.0/255.255.255.128

This gives me a subnet which starts at 10.20.50.0 and ends at
10.20.50.127, or 128 total addresses.

The only time you can't do this is if you don't own the other bits of
the network you want to use.  So if your ISP issues you (for instance)
24.55.122.8/255.255.255.248, that would give you 24.55.122.8 through
24.55.122.15.  You could not arbitrarily decide to use 255.255.255.240
and start using 16 addresses, since the ISP didn't assign them to you.
In reality, even if you did try that their router would probably not
allow it anyway, but you get the picture.

Google CIDR and read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classless_Inter-Domain_Routing for some
really cool info on how subnet masks are used to do routing and
sub/supernetting.

Tony Bemus wrote:
| I believe you can not because the 192.168.x.x ip range is a Class C
| range with a default subnet mask of 255.255.255.0.  If you need to use
| the 255.255.0.0 subnet then start with a class B address like
| 172.16.x.x
|
| Tony Bemus
|
|
| On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 12:49 -0800, David Lane wrote:
|
|> Can you use 192.168.x.x and mask 255.255.0.0?
|>
|> David
|>
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| mdlug mailing list
| mdlug at mdlug.org
| http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHu60Wmzle50YHwaARAvH5AJ9QUYLKgqou92T4ancQ2XHb5L7nUACfRlP0
09FkV/aCwPuOD8ltxFACnLM=
=pVWj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Tue Feb 19 23:34:37 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:34:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Monday 18 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Brian Hurley wrote:
> > If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
> > PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.
>
> That only applies to sellers, not consumers.
> If you don't believe me... READ IT.

My previous response to this was a bit glib. 

A more serious would be that yes I've read it. Perhaps you're too young to 
rmember when it didn't have the line "...EXCEPT BY CONSUMERS". The reason 
that was added was to allay just the sort of paranoia we're seeing on this 
list about the FCC label. 

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22DO+NOT+REMOVE+UNDER%0A+PENALTY+OF+LAW%22

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Feb 19 22:33:01 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 22:33:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] L1 & L2 Cache AMD & Intel
In-Reply-To: <20080220020908.GA86637@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <532791.68867.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20080220020908.GA86637@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <47BB9F6D.2020703@hotpop.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 01:31:38PM -0800, David Lane wrote:
>> The Next resource I'm looking it is a database server (MySQL)/Intranet HTML server .
>>
> 
> VERY broadly speaking, for most DB applications, if you have to
> choose between CPU cache and more main memory, choose more main
> memory.



> 
> Next (or perhaps *before* main memory) choose faster hard disks,
> and/or a faster RAID controller.

Depending on the size of the database and other running apps,
and how much memory can populate the motheroard.

If the database is small enough to all fit in RAM with all of
the other processes that will be running, then buy enough RAM
to do exactly that.

If not, then buy fast disks

> 
> If you're sure you'll have enough main memory & fast enough disks,
> more CPU cache can't hurt.  
> 
> Probably, though, a better buying strategy would be to try your
> application on the hardware you already have and see where the
> bottleneck is.
> 
> danno





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Feb 20 00:29:40 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:29:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
> On Monday 18 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Brian Hurley wrote:
>>> If FCC lables freak you out, watch out for the "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER
>>> PENALTY OF LAW" lables on your mattress and pillows.
>> That only applies to sellers, not consumers.
>> If you don't believe me... READ IT.
> 
> My previous response to this was a bit glib. 
> 
> A more serious would be that yes I've read it. Perhaps you're too young to 
> rmember when it didn't have the line "...EXCEPT BY CONSUMERS". The reason 
> that was added was to allay just the sort of paranoia we're seeing on this 
> list about the FCC label. 


Apples and Oranges.

The Mattress/Pillow label thing was a mistake of ommission.

The statement that a device *MUST* accept interference did
not come about by forgetting to exclude it.  It's an act
of commission...which means someone TOOK AN ACTION to include
that specification within federal law.

No government would demand that your electronics be susceptible
to interference unless the want to reserve the power to use
that weakness.

Here's an example.

When I was in Baghdad, we had equipment which takes practical
advantage of these sorts of mandated weakness in electronic
devices (these same requirements are in place in practically
all countries where modern electronic devices are manufactured),
so the same thing applies to electronics in Iraq as what you
buy here in the States.

When we arrived in theater, the commander of the company
which we were replacing showed us several videos... some
taken off Al-Queda web sites showing us how NOT to react
to IED attacks; the deadly results of driving too fast
in top-heavy vehicles on bad roads (one made by the
turret gunner who ended up being decapitated in the
roll-over accident which occurred a couple minutes
into the video which started as they left the base)...
the last one showed some idiot trying to blow up a patrol...
and he's holding his video camera while trying to trigger
an attack with a Motorola FRS (Family Radio Service)
type radio (the little "walkie-talkie" type things,
often with optional "security channels" that were
introduced about 8 years ago.

Suffice it to say that not only did he fail to trigger
his explosive device, but one of the turret gunners
spotted this man in field in the middle of nowhere,
with a video camera and a radio...which is pretty much
the signature of an IED trigger man.  So, in the
video, the camera suddenly goes from pointing at the
passing humvees to pointing up at the sky....it's like
that for about 2-minutes...until you see the camera
panning around to half a squad of American soldiers,
before aiming down to show the man, Motorola radio
still in his hand, with the incredible trauma of
having been hit in the chest with a .50 caliber bullet.

Does this now clarify for you WHY governments insist
that consumer-grade devices be vulnerable to any
interference which causes "undesired operation"



There's other things, but I can't talk about them, at
least not for a few decades.

> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22DO+NOT+REMOVE+UNDER%0A+PENALTY+OF+LAW%22
> 






From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 20 12:13:07 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:13:07 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>

I have been commissioned to create a flier for the club to pass around. 
Other than the basic contact and website info what is wanted is a quick
description of what we do, and a "hook" a line to get people to read the
flier.

I am soliciting suggest for hooks and text.  I'll listen for either two
week on till the talk dies down.  Pitch your ideas.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 12:24:33 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:24:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>
	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> I have been commissioned to create a flier for the club to pass around.
>  Other than the basic contact and website info what is wanted is a quick
>  description of what we do, and a "hook" a line to get people to read the
>  flier.
>
>  I am soliciting suggest for hooks and text.  I'll listen for either two
>  week on till the talk dies down.  Pitch your ideas.

http://www.paperplane.org

Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
make Linux users look like a cult.


From jcbender at bendorius.com  Wed Feb 20 12:40:51 2008
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:40:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>
References: <779601.83412.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1203481176.28780.2.camel@bemus-tony>
Message-ID: <47BC6623.3000505@bendorius.com>

Tony Bemus wrote:
> I believe you can not because the 192.168.x.x ip range is a Class C
> range with a default subnet mask of 255.255.255.0.  If you need to use
> the 255.255.0.0 subnet then start with a class B address like
> 172.16.x.x 
> 
	
Please go and read RFC1918 (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1918.html). 
192.168.0.0 is a /16.  172.16.0.0 is a /12, NOT a /16, despite so many 
references getting it very very wrong.

I will also point out that Class A, B and C are very outdated 
nomenclature, as CIDR's been in effect for many years now.  It's more 
common to refer to networks by their CIDR bitmask (/16, /20, /19, /24).

The 3 private subnet allocations are as follows (from the RFC):

10.0.0.0        -   10.255.255.255  (10/8 prefix)
172.16.0.0      -   172.31.255.255  (172.16/12 prefix)
192.168.0.0     -   192.168.255.255 (192.168/16 prefix)

So, to answer David's question, yes, you can use 192.168.0.0/16 
(255.255.0.0) as a unpartitioned subnet.  I wouldn't advise doing that 
(just because it's a massive subnet that doesn't need to really be that 
big), but you can do it.  If you really want to allocate /16s everywhere 
and keep it in the same overall IP supernet structure, do it in 
10.0.0.0/8 space, start from the bottom and work your way up.  This is 
very useful, as it permits for simpler things like firewall rules 
addressing the supernets for things like outbound NAT rules.

David, if you want to see how various ip masks and combinations work for 
various things, try installing ipcalc on your favorite linux distro. 
It's a little command line widget that for a given network address and 
subnet mask (or bits) will give you lots of useful information.  I use 
it all the time to double check my work when I'm splitting out IP 
supernets into funky subnets that I can't always recall precisely.

HTH



-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 20 13:29:24 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 10:29:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
Message-ID: <422274.13957.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you, 

I know that it is common practice to place network resources and workstations on separate sub nets. 

However in a home office there wont be a need, But I have to protect the servers from the kids computers and the viruses they get.  

David 

----- Original Message ----
From: Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:40:51 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] IPCOP install


Tony 
Bemus 
wrote:
> 
I 
believe 
you 
can 
not 
because 
the 
192.168.x.x 
ip 
range 
is 
a 
Class 
C
> 
range 
with 
a 
default 
subnet 
mask 
of 
255.255.255.0.  
If 
you 
need 
to 
use
> 
the 
255.255.0.0 
subnet 
then 
start 
with 
a 
class 
B 
address 
like
> 
172.16.x.x 
> 
    
Please 
go 
and 
read 
RFC1918 
(http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1918.html). 
192.168.0.0 
is 
a 
/16.  
172.16.0.0 
is 
a 
/12, 
NOT 
a 
/16, 
despite 
so 
many 
references 
getting 
it 
very 
very 
wrong.

I 
will 
also 
point 
out 
that 
Class 
A, 
B 
and 
C 
are 
very 
outdated 
nomenclature, 
as 
CIDR's 
been 
in 
effect 
for 
many 
years 
now.  
It's 
more 
common 
to 
refer 
to 
networks 
by 
their 
CIDR 
bitmask 
(/16, 
/20, 
/19, 
/24).

The 
3 
private 
subnet 
allocations 
are 
as 
follows 
(from 
the 
RFC):

10.0.0.0  
  
  
  
-  
 
10.255.255.255  
(10/8 
prefix)
172.16.0.0  
  
  
-  
 
172.31.255.255  
(172.16/12 
prefix)
192.168.0.0  
  
 
-  
 
192.168.255.255 
(192.168/16 
prefix)

So, 
to 
answer 
David's 
question, 
yes, 
you 
can 
use 
192.168.0.0/16 
(255.255.0.0) 
as 
a 
unpartitioned 
subnet.  
I 
wouldn't 
advise 
doing 
that 
(just 
because 
it's 
a 
massive 
subnet 
that 
doesn't 
need 
to 
really 
be 
that 
big), 
but 
you 
can 
do 
it.  
If 
you 
really 
want 
to 
allocate 
/16s 
everywhere 
and 
keep 
it 
in 
the 
same 
overall 
IP 
supernet 
structure, 
do 
it 
in 
10.0.0.0/8 
space, 
start 
from 
the 
bottom 
and 
work 
your 
way 
up.  
This 
is 
very 
useful, 
as 
it 
permits 
for 
simpler 
things 
like 
firewall 
rules 
addressing 
the 
supernets 
for 
things 
like 
outbound 
NAT 
rules.

David, 
if 
you 
want 
to 
see 
how 
various 
ip 
masks 
and 
combinations 
work 
for 
various 
things, 
try 
installing 
ipcalc 
on 
your 
favorite 
linux 
distro. 
It's 
a 
little 
command 
line 
widget 
that 
for 
a 
given 
network 
address 
and 
subnet 
mask 
(or 
bits) 
will 
give 
you 
lots 
of 
useful 
information.  
I 
use 
it 
all 
the 
time 
to 
double 
check 
my 
work 
when 
I'm 
splitting 
out 
IP 
supernets 
into 
funky 
subnets 
that 
I 
can't 
always 
recall 
precisely.

HTH



-- 
Joseph 
Bender
Bendorius 
Consulting
P: 
248-434-5580
F: 
248-434-5581
jcbender 
at 
bendorius 
com
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 20 13:43:14 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:43:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
>
> Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
> make Linux users look like a cult.


I haven't decided on graphical elements as of yet.  I am looking for
content right now.

Three elements outside of the graphical, which I will used to dress up
and fill.

1:  The Hook:  A large statement to get attention.  So far suggested is
"Tired of Vista Yet?"

2:  The Blurb:  A brief paragraph to explain what and who MDLUG is.  It
needs to be short sweet and light.  Every word has to work for a living.

3:  The Payoff:  Web address and meeting time and location.

The deal is it doesn't have to be just one flier.  If I get several good
suggestions I can make several fliers.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From wolfger at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 14:22:50 2008
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:22:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330802201122g4a8b8beenc7564e45f0f2b0a@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 20, 2008 12:24 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
> make Linux users look like a cult.

Shut up and drink the kool-aid. ;-)


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Wed Feb 20 14:24:52 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:24:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] IPCOP install
In-Reply-To: <422274.13957.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <422274.13957.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47BC7E84.9010907@arb.net>

Sounds like the kids need a new OS ;-)

You would not believe how many of my friends have called me this month 
alone because their kids got wacked on myspace with various malware. The 
only thing they all have in common - their kids use WinDoze.

-dave

David Lane wrote:

>Thank you, 
>
>I know that it is common practice to place network resources and workstations on separate sub nets. 
>
>However in a home office there wont be a need, But I have to protect the servers from the kids computers and the viruses they get.  
>
>David 
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Joseph C. Bender <jcbender at bendorius.com>
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:40:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] IPCOP install
>
>
>Tony 
>Bemus 
>wrote:
>  
>
>I 
>believe 
>you 
>can 
>not 
>because 
>the 
>192.168.x.x 
>ip 
>range 
>is 
>a 
>Class 
>C
>  
>
>range 
>with 
>a 
>default 
>subnet 
>mask 
>of 
>255.255.255.0.  
>If 
>you 
>need 
>to 
>use
>  
>
>the 
>255.255.0.0 
>subnet 
>then 
>start 
>with 
>a 
>class 
>B 
>address 
>like
>  
>
>172.16.x.x 
>  
>
>    
>Please 
>go 
>and 
>read 
>RFC1918 
>(http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1918.html). 
>192.168.0.0 
>is 
>a 
>/16.  
>172.16.0.0 
>is 
>a 
>/12, 
>NOT 
>a 
>/16, 
>despite 
>so 
>many 
>references 
>getting 
>it 
>very 
>very 
>wrong.
>
>I 
>will 
>also 
>point 
>out 
>that 
>Class 
>A, 
>B 
>and 
>C 
>are 
>very 
>outdated 
>nomenclature, 
>as 
>CIDR's 
>been 
>in 
>effect 
>for 
>many 
>years 
>now.  
>It's 
>more 
>common 
>to 
>refer 
>to 
>networks 
>by 
>their 
>CIDR 
>bitmask 
>(/16, 
>/20, 
>/19, 
>/24).
>
>The 
>3 
>private 
>subnet 
>allocations 
>are 
>as 
>follows 
>(from 
>the 
>RFC):
>
>10.0.0.0  
>  
>  
>  
>-  
> 
>10.255.255.255  
>(10/8 
>prefix)
>172.16.0.0  
>  
>  
>-  
> 
>172.31.255.255  
>(172.16/12 
>prefix)
>192.168.0.0  
>  
> 
>-  
> 
>192.168.255.255 
>(192.168/16 
>prefix)
>
>So, 
>to 
>answer 
>David's 
>question, 
>yes, 
>you 
>can 
>use 
>192.168.0.0/16 
>(255.255.0.0) 
>as 
>a 
>unpartitioned 
>subnet.  
>I 
>wouldn't 
>advise 
>doing 
>that 
>(just 
>because 
>it's 
>a 
>massive 
>subnet 
>that 
>doesn't 
>need 
>to 
>really 
>be 
>that 
>big), 
>but 
>you 
>can 
>do 
>it.  
>If 
>you 
>really 
>want 
>to 
>allocate 
>/16s 
>everywhere 
>and 
>keep 
>it 
>in 
>the 
>same 
>overall 
>IP 
>supernet 
>structure, 
>do 
>it 
>in 
>10.0.0.0/8 
>space, 
>start 
>from 
>the 
>bottom 
>and 
>work 
>your 
>way 
>up.  
>This 
>is 
>very 
>useful, 
>as 
>it 
>permits 
>for 
>simpler 
>things 
>like 
>firewall 
>rules 
>addressing 
>the 
>supernets 
>for 
>things 
>like 
>outbound 
>NAT 
>rules.
>
>David, 
>if 
>you 
>want 
>to 
>see 
>how 
>various 
>ip 
>masks 
>and 
>combinations 
>work 
>for 
>various 
>things, 
>try 
>installing 
>ipcalc 
>on 
>your 
>favorite 
>linux 
>distro. 
>It's 
>a 
>little 
>command 
>line 
>widget 
>that 
>for 
>a 
>given 
>network 
>address 
>and 
>subnet 
>mask 
>(or 
>bits) 
>will 
>give 
>you 
>lots 
>of 
>useful 
>information.  
>I 
>use 
>it 
>all 
>the 
>time 
>to 
>double 
>check 
>my 
>work 
>when 
>I'm 
>splitting 
>out 
>IP 
>supernets 
>into 
>funky 
>subnets 
>that 
>I 
>can't 
>always 
>recall 
>precisely.
>
>HTH
>
>
>
>  
>


From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Feb 20 15:07:57 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:07:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47ADD5DC.4080200@comcast.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BC889D.60102@ameritech.net>

Properly, this should have been the start of a new thread.
Even more properly it should be on the mdlug-admin mailing list.
Several ideas about recruiting, (intergroup) networking, publicity, and
extra activities were discussed at last night's officers meeting.

We agreed that we would invite all interested members to participate in
these discussions, but it should be conducted on the admin list so as to
not bother those who just want to read technical discussions.
To this end I will post my comments there. Anyone who wants to read
along can follow the discussion in the archive
<http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-admin/>. If you want to participate
you must subscribe.
<http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-admin/>

Raymond McLaughlin


Garry Stahl wrote:
> I have been commissioned to create a flier for the club to pass around. 
> Other than the basic contact and website info what is wanted is a quick
> description of what we do, and a "hook" a line to get people to read the
> flier.
> 
> I am soliciting suggest for hooks and text.  I'll listen for either two
> week on till the talk dies down.  Pitch your ideas.
> 



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 15:18:52 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:18:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802201218i7d6f4c7dr8487f35e97e3595b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>  Three elements outside of the graphical, which I will used to dress up
>  and fill.
>
>  1:  The Hook:  A large statement to get attention.  So far suggested is
>  "Tired of Vista Yet?"

That's not necessarily the best way to promote Linux but I guess it
depends on what the purpose of MDLUG is.  If it's to help new Linux
users then ignore M$ as it's just preaching to the choir.  If it's to
help others understand computer technology and try out new things
(like Linux) then maybe not mention the OS at all.  The group has a
rather diverse skill set and helping to install Firefox and
Openoffice.org on XP and giving them a LiveCD is less scary to n00bs.
Your statement could be interpreted as offering XP installation help.

>  2:  The Blurb:  A brief paragraph to explain what and who MDLUG is.  It
>  needs to be short sweet and light.  Every word has to work for a living.
>
>  3:  The Payoff:  Web address and meeting time and location.

Are we targeting any specific age group?  Offering to mentor beginner
PC techs would be another option.  Silicon Alley Recyclers is doing
that:
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=11CF013C634EE508&p_docnum=1&s_dlid=DL0108022020165116113&s_ecproduct=SUB-FREE&s_ecprodtype=INSTANT&s_subterm=Subscription%20until%3A%2012%2F31%2F2015%2011%3A59%20PM&s_subexpires=12%2F31%2F2015%2011%3A59%20PM&s_username=cgpfree&s_accountid=AC0106122119130516735&s_upgradeable=no


From escalated at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 17:43:28 2008
From: escalated at gmail.com (merc)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:43:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802201218i7d6f4c7dr8487f35e97e3595b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802201218i7d6f4c7dr8487f35e97e3595b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9852fbe30802201443h32bb4793qb948aaf6ef12c9d7@mail.gmail.com>

I think focusing on open source/free software would be cool, everyone
loves free stuff.

Problem is, sometimes free stuff is equated with lower quality...maybe
something about being good/great/better/equal to closed source stuff.

Also, if there's any popular stuff out there that uses open
source/free software that our target audience might be familiar with
it would be good to mention.

I guess all of the above fits into the blurb part, the payoff should
be website/meeting time I guess.

I have no idea for a hook.

Also, I think tux or any other distro specific graphics should be left out.

My two cents. (also note that I am incapable of forming a complete
paragraph, only short sentences).


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Wed Feb 20 18:42:49 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:42:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <9852fbe30802201443h32bb4793qb948aaf6ef12c9d7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802201218i7d6f4c7dr8487f35e97e3595b@mail.gmail.com>
	<9852fbe30802201443h32bb4793qb948aaf6ef12c9d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802201838150.30529@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008, merc wrote:

> I think focusing on open source/free software would be cool, everyone
> loves free stuff.
>
> Problem is, sometimes free stuff is equated with lower quality...maybe
> something about being good/great/better/equal to closed source stuff.
>
> Also, if there's any popular stuff out there that uses open
> source/free software that our target audience might be familiar with
> it would be good to mention.
>
> I guess all of the above fits into the blurb part, the payoff should
> be website/meeting time I guess.
>
> I have no idea for a hook.
>
> Also, I think tux or any other distro specific graphics should be left out.
>
> My two cents. (also note that I am incapable of forming a complete
> paragraph, only short sentences).


What is Linux?

Linux is:

Safe and secure!
Viruses?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!
Spyware?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!
Stolen IDs?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!

Tired of the kids deleting all those photos you took or your work folder?
Fuhgeddaboudit!!

Stable!
Tired of blue screen of death?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!
Tired of crashes?  Fuhgeddaboudit!!
Tired of corrupt disks?  Fuhgeddaboutdit!!

Try it! You'll like it!!


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Feb 20 08:38:06 2008
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 08:38:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com> (message from Aaron Kulkis on Wed, 
	20 Feb 2008 00:29:40 -0500)
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>
	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>

Aaron,

> The statement that a device *MUST* accept interference did
> not come about by forgetting to exclude it.
> It's an act of commission...which means someone TOOK AN ACTION to include
> that specification within federal law.

I disagree.

See 47 CFR 15.5, cited earlier in this thread.
The "Class C warning stickers"  omit the "that may be caused by
[authorized users of the frequency]".

Intended use of Part 15 radiators must yield to authorized
users of the radio spectrum, just as off-road-vehicle drivers
may not block public roads, and when intersecting a public road
from off-road must yield right of way to the drivers on the road,
but are not prohibitted from driving off-road (where otherwise allowed)
nor prohibitted (where otherwise allowed) from driving on the public road.



> When I was in Baghdad, we had equipment which takes practical
> advantage of these sorts of mandated weakness in electronic
> devices (these same requirements are in place in practically
> all countries where modern electronic devices are manufactured),
> so the same thing applies to electronics in Iraq as what you
> buy here in the States.

Much of the world has no recognized legal rights of the individual.
Much less has right of free speech, free press, or peaceable assembly.
I do not recognize the absence of such legal rights elsewhere as
the vacation of those rights in the United States.
Promoting rights of the individual and rule of law,
opposing violent suppression of same,
are among the reported reasons we are involved in Iraq.



The right of free speech, free press, the right
to peaceably assemble, and their enforcement,
the authority of the individual to listen, to observe,
and to communicate (when not infringing the rights
of others), has been demonstrated to be necessary to
keep a "good" state from reacting to its fear,
by becoming the tyranny that it would oppose.

IIRC, US civil servants (including the president)
annually take an oath "to defend the Constitution
of the United States against all enemies domestic
and foreign".



Armed bank robbers are notorious for speeding and ignoring driving laws.
A mandated kill-switch on automobiles is unlikely to
stop armed bank robbers, but very likely to benefit carjackers.
Murderers are not likely to observe "government-mandated
weakness" in their IEDs.
I hope our soldiers protection equipment does not depend
on any assumed compliance of IEDs with laws of government,
as I fear this would put our soldiers unnecessarily in harms way.
I hope our soldiers protection equipment does depend,
in this matter, on the laws of physics (mandated by God, not government)
of electromagnetic radiation with which IEDs must comply,
and compliance with which is not onerous to the honest citizen.

Concerned,
-- 
Bob

  "The liberties of our country are worth defending at all hazards. We have
   received them from our worthy ancestors; they purchased them for us with
   toil, treasure and blood. It will bring an everlasting infamy on the
   present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be
   wrested from us...or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and
   designing men."
	     -- Samuel Adams, 1771.


From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Wed Feb 20 20:59:33 2008
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:59:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <200802202059.34174.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Wednesday 20 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

<war story proving nothing snipped>

> Does this now clarify for you WHY governments insist
> that consumer-grade devices be vulnerable to any
> interference which causes "undesired operation"

No, not at all.


-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Feb 20 23:41:37 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:41:37 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BD0101.4080408@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>> I have been commissioned to create a flier for the club to pass around.
>>  Other than the basic contact and website info what is wanted is a quick
>>  description of what we do, and a "hook" a line to get people to read the
>>  flier.
>>
>>  I am soliciting suggest for hooks and text.  I'll listen for either two
>>  week on till the talk dies down.  Pitch your ideas.
> 
> http://www.paperplane.org
> 
> Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
> make Linux users look like a cult.

You mean like the Ford blue-oval cult?
or the McDonald's Giant Yellow M's cult
Or the McDonald's clown cult?
or the Marathon red flying-horse cult?
or the meso-sexual Nabisco cult?
Or the Chrysler pentagon cult?





Q. What are the three sexes?

A: Male
<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Mars_symbol.svg>

  Female
<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Venus_symbol.svg>

  Nabisco
<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Nabisco.png>






From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 00:38:20 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:38:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Aaron,
> 
>> The statement that a device *MUST* accept interference did
>> not come about by forgetting to exclude it.
>> It's an act of commission...which means someone TOOK AN ACTION to include
>> that specification within federal law.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> See 47 CFR 15.5, cited earlier in this thread.
> The "Class C warning stickers"  omit the "that may be caused by
> [authorized users of the frequency]".
> 
> Intended use of Part 15 radiators must yield to authorized
> users of the radio spectrum, just as off-road-vehicle drivers
> may not block public roads, and when intersecting a public road
> from off-road must yield right of way to the drivers on the road,
> but are not prohibitted from driving off-road (where otherwise allowed)
> nor prohibitted (where otherwise allowed) from driving on the public road.
> 

And "authorized users of the frequency" means people
specifically granted permission by the government to
use that frequency.

Numbers 1 and 2 in line to be "authorized users"
are government entities: military and police.

> 
> 
>> When I was in Baghdad, we had equipment which takes practical
>> advantage of these sorts of mandated weakness in electronic
>> devices (these same requirements are in place in practically
>> all countries where modern electronic devices are manufactured),
>> so the same thing applies to electronics in Iraq as what you
>> buy here in the States.
> 
> Much of the world has no recognized legal rights of the individual.
> Much less has right of free speech, free press, or peaceable assembly.
> I do not recognize the absence of such legal rights elsewhere as
> the vacation of those rights in the United States.
> Promoting rights of the individual and rule of law,
> opposing violent suppression of same,
> are among the reported reasons we are involved in Iraq.

And it's coming...slower than we wish, but quite fast
considering the society in question.
(it took the U.S. over 10 years to replace the Confederation
of the Revolutionary War with the present Federalist system).

> 
> 
> 
> The right of free speech, free press, the right
> to peaceably assemble, and their enforcement,
> the authority of the individual to listen, to observe,
> and to communicate (when not infringing the rights
> of others), has been demonstrated to be necessary to
> keep a "good" state from reacting to its fear,
> by becoming the tyranny that it would oppose.
> 
> IIRC, US civil servants (including the president)
> annually take an oath "to defend the Constitution
> of the United States against all enemies domestic
> and foreign".

And then practically every elected official then proceeds
to trample upon that oath :-(

> 
> 
> 
> Armed bank robbers are notorious for speeding and ignoring driving laws.
> A mandated kill-switch on automobiles is unlikely to
> stop armed bank robbers, but very likely to benefit carjackers.
> Murderers are not likely to observe "government-mandated
> weakness" in their IEDs.

It turns out is that off-the-shelf wireless systems which
are resistant to jamming are quite expensive compared to the
typical cell phone or FRS radio...by pushing up the cost of
the equipment, it has an impact on the numbers of devices
employed.

As it is, we're not finding the enemy is using jamming-resistant
radios (despite their availability)...they're opting for
cheap cell-phones and bottom-of-the-line Motorola FRS radios,
even though THEY DO KNOW that the equipment they are using
is getting jammed by our equipment.


> I hope our soldiers protection equipment does not depend
> on any assumed compliance of IEDs with laws of government,

Very little is assumed.
The "picture" (for lack of a better term) is composed of
whatever data is available.

Initially, most IEDs were detonated by command wire.

When allied forces started training to look for command
wire (or signs of command wire being concealed), the
opposing forces started switching to wireless devices
as the arming mechanism.

When our engineers developed a variety of jamming
systems, they opposition forces have switched away
from wireless control back to command wire and
passive devices hooked to timers.

Everything is changing...and the best picture is
provided by whatever EOD picks up after a detonation
(the thing about a bomb is...other than the explosives
themselves...the rest of the bomb's components,
particularly the control mechanisms, are still all
around (although usually singed and twisted/crumpled),
and readily identified when collected up and spread
out on a table.

> as I fear this would put our soldiers unnecessarily in harms way.
> I hope our soldiers protection equipment does depend,
> in this matter, on the laws of physics (mandated by God, not government)
> of electromagnetic radiation with which IEDs must comply,
> and compliance with which is not onerous to the honest citizen.

Right now, the worst thing out there is a device called
an EFP (explosively formed projectile).  It's an upgrade
of a successful assassination method -- the platter charge
attached to the bottom of a man-hole cover.

An EFP is a steel can, normally set in concrete...the can
is filled with explosive, with the detonator near the front,
and then covered with a shallow dish made of copper (concave
into the can.  When the explosive charge blows, the copper
blows-outwards while still maintaining a bond with the
rim of the steel can...as pressure builds, the copper
distends (easily because it is a ductile metal)...the
center of the now outward-bowing bowl is travelling
faster than the edges...once the edges release/tear from
the rim of the can, they snap inwards...forming a very
slender projectile, which by this time is moving at a
speed in the range of Mach 4 to Mach 6.

As you can imagine, this is extremely devastating to
anything it runs into -- even an M1 tank :-/

These devices are triggered by $15 off the shelf
motion-detectors like you would use to turn on
exterior security lighting, or to automatically
turn office lights when someone enters a room,
and turn them off some time after the room is empty.

There are some counter-measures for this device,
but the effectiveness is variable.



> 
> Concerned,





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 00:39:52 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:39:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <200802202059.34174.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>
	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>
	<200802202059.34174.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <47BD0EA8.6040805@hotpop.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
> <war story proving nothing snipped>
> 
>> Does this now clarify for you WHY governments insist
>> that consumer-grade devices be vulnerable to any
>> interference which causes "undesired operation"
> 
> No, not at all.

Then you're just not understanding the mindset of
bureaucrats and other power-hungry maniacs who run
for elected office.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 01:27:59 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 01:27:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Jeff Hanson wrote:
>> Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
>> make Linux users look like a cult.
> 
> 
> I haven't decided on graphical elements as of yet.  I am looking for
> content right now.
> 
> Three elements outside of the graphical, which I will used to dress up
> and fill.
> 
> 1:  The Hook:  A large statement to get attention.  So far suggested is
> "Tired of Vista Yet?"

Are you:

* TIRED of the endless forced upgrade cycle because your
current computer can't run new software?

* TIRED of buying faster and more powerful computers
every 3 years but getting slower and slower performance?

* TIRED of "security software" that still leaves you afraid?

* TIRED of buying software from a company whose only real
concern is how much money they can extort out of yours?


> 
> 2:  The Blurb:  A brief paragraph to explain what and who MDLUG is.  It
> needs to be short sweet and light.  Every word has to work for a living.
> 
> 3:  The Payoff:  Web address and meeting time and location.
> 
> The deal is it doesn't have to be just one flier.  If I get several good
> suggestions I can make several fliers.
> 
> 





From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Feb 21 02:22:19 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 02:22:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>
	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net> <47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>
	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net> <47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net> <47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802202322s3aabc73as97b59e8ea7a7bd97@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 1:27 AM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>  * TIRED of the endless forced upgrade cycle because your
>  current computer can't run new software?
>
>  * TIRED of buying faster and more powerful computers
>  every 3 years but getting slower and slower performance?
>
>  * TIRED of "security software" that still leaves you afraid?
>
>  * TIRED of buying software from a company whose only real
>  concern is how much money they can extort out of yours?


M$ tried the negative campaign at the corporate level with Linux.  It
didn't work.  CIOs wrote them off as biased.  Being positive by
offering both short and long-term solutions and education is what sets
enthusiasts apart from zealots.

* Is your computer showing it's age faster than you expected?
* Have your programs lost their edge?
* Do you feel technology has left you behind and are looking for a
friendly way to catch up?
* Are you dismayed that computer store staff always seem to want you
to throw money at the problem and wish you had somewhere to go for
practical advice?

Now doesn't that sound a lot better?


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 03:03:26 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 03:03:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802202322s3aabc73as97b59e8ea7a7bd97@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>
	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>
	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
	<b02c40e90802202322s3aabc73as97b59e8ea7a7bd97@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BD304E.8070009@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 1:27 AM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>>  * TIRED of the endless forced upgrade cycle because your
>>  current computer can't run new software?
>>
>>  * TIRED of buying faster and more powerful computers
>>  every 3 years but getting slower and slower performance?
>>
>>  * TIRED of "security software" that still leaves you afraid?
>>
>>  * TIRED of buying software from a company whose only real
>>  concern is how much money they can extort out of yours?
> 
> 
> M$ tried the negative campaign at the corporate level with Linux.  It
> didn't work.

Because MS lacks credibility.

 >               CIOs wrote them off as biased.

Of course.
In contrast, what money do MDLUG members stand to make or lose by
someone else's choice of OS?

 >                                               Being positive by
> offering both short and long-term solutions and education is what sets
> enthusiasts apart from zealots.
> 
> * Is your computer showing it's age faster than you expected?
> * Have your programs lost their edge?
> * Do you feel technology has left you behind and are looking for a
> friendly way to catch up?
> * Are you dismayed that computer store staff always seem to want you
> to throw money at the problem and wish you had somewhere to go for
> practical advice?
> 
> Now doesn't that sound a lot better?

Not necessarily.

With the first two re-written lines, you're not fully
tapping into the latent frustrations of the typical
Windows-using business-owner.

And most people operate more by "away from pain" strategies
more than "towards gain" strategies.

One of the keys is to gain rapport with those feelings
of frustration which are common among the Windows
community, and then amplify them to a level which compels
seeking out something which provides them with relief
from the frustration and mental anguish (caused by virus
headaches, financial outflows, etc.)


Another thing to do is run MULTIPLE flyers...




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 21 13:18:40 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:18:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>
	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>


>Right now, the worst thing out there is a device called
>an EFP (explosively formed projectile).  It's an upgrade
>of a successful assassination method -- the platter charge
>attached to the bottom of a man-hole cover.
>
>An EFP is a steel can, normally set in concrete...the can
>is filled with explosive, with the detonator near the front,
>and then covered with a shallow dish made of copper (concave
>into the can.  When the explosive charge blows, the copper
>blows-outwards while still maintaining a bond with the
>rim of the steel can...as pressure builds, the copper
>distends (easily because it is a ductile metal)...the
>center of the now outward-bowing bowl is travelling
>faster than the edges...once the edges release/tear from
>the rim of the can, they snap inwards...forming a very
>slender projectile, which by this time is moving at a
>speed in the range of Mach 4 to Mach 6.
>
>As you can imagine, this is extremely devastating to
>anything it runs into -- even an M1 tank :-/
>  
>
I think you missed one part of the physics of the copper in a EFP - it 
becomes molten at that point and acts like a plasma cutter when it comes 
in contact with simple armor. That is why the M1 and other advanced 
systems employ composite armor in many places - steel on the outside for 
conventional projectiles, and other layers of other materials 
(classified) to stop the plasma injection. The M60 in the Nam had simple 
steel armor easily penetrated by the Russian RPG with their cone shaped 
copper in the explosive, so the troops would get badly burned from the 
molten copper injecting into the tank. This copper at that point did 
little damage other than burn everything.  So, reactive armor panels 
were added to the outside of the steel - basically explosive charges 
that would detonate when the molten copper entered them, thus blowing 
the plasma away.
-dave

PS - the demolition crews world wide use this technique to topple steel 
structures like old buildings - they have sticks of plastic explosive 
about 2.5" in diameter with about a 1" copper piece in the shape of a 90 
degree right angle running the length of the explosive. It will cut 
through quite a chunk of structural steel.


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 21 13:27:50 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:27:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Flyer
In-Reply-To: <47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47AE4358.1080205@ameritech.net>	<1202604348.5363.9.camel@laptop01>	<b02c40e90802091813x5391d6c5ncf7fc7f1902172e3@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802092328370.9228@banana.sluggo.net>	<b02c40e90802092059j3502cfa7s9b70391a2780053a@mail.gmail.com>	<47B796CD.90703@comcast.net>	<47B7B475.2050809@hotpop.com>	<47B8F693.5040307@comcast.net>	<47BC5FA3.7020303@comcast.net>	<b02c40e90802200924y5ce857ddsbbe2ab4418320f8b@mail.gmail.com>	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BD19EF.1060706@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BDC2A6.4010001@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

>Garry Stahl wrote:
>  
>
>>Jeff Hanson wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Seriously though, maybe penguin-free?  Overuse of Tux is starting to
>>>make Linux users look like a cult.
>>>      
>>>
>>I haven't decided on graphical elements as of yet.  I am looking for
>>content right now.
>>
>>Three elements outside of the graphical, which I will used to dress up
>>and fill.
>>
>>1:  The Hook:  A large statement to get attention.  So far suggested is
>>"Tired of Vista Yet?"
>>    
>>
>
>Are you:
>
>* TIRED of the endless forced upgrade cycle because your
>current computer can't run new software?
>
>* TIRED of buying faster and more powerful computers
>every 3 years but getting slower and slower performance?
>
>* TIRED of "security software" that still leaves you afraid?
>
>* TIRED of buying software from a company whose only real
>concern is how much money they can extort out of yours?
>
You hit the nail on the head. I love the deer in the headlights look I 
get every time some Windows user complains about how their machine gets 
slower and slower. The look comes when I explain it is just as fast as 
when they bought it - faster than they can read or type, and their 
software is the same version as 3 years before, so the only thing 
changed is the 130,000 plus malwares their AV must scan for on every I/O 
operation - that it was maybe 80,000 when they bought it, and who knows 
how many in 3 more years...   The look is priceless. Then, I usually 
explain if they remove AV it will suddenly be faster than when they 
bought it, but they can't connect to any network or share any files with 
anyone because it will be minutes before they are infected on the 
internet without AV.

Too bad they don't see the light.

Hey, maybe that should be the marketing campaign for Linux !  "Don't 
dump your 3 year old PC because it has gotten slow, install Linux and 
get faster secure performance in excess of that you had when it was new."

-dave


From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Thu Feb 21 14:32:02 2008
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:32:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>
	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>


> I think you missed one part of the physics of the copper in a EFP - it 
> becomes molten at that point and acts like a plasma cutter when it comes 
> in contact with simple armor. That is why the M1 and other advanced 
> systems employ composite armor in many places - steel on the outside for 
> conventional projectiles, and other layers of other materials 
> (classified) to stop the plasma injection. The M60 in the Nam had simple 
> steel armor easily penetrated by the Russian RPG with their cone shaped 
> copper in the explosive, so the troops would get badly burned from the 
> molten copper injecting into the tank. This copper at that point did 
> little damage other than burn everything.  So, reactive armor panels 
> were added to the outside of the steel - basically explosive charges 
> that would detonate when the molten copper entered them, thus blowing 
> the plasma away.
> -dave
>
> PS - the demolition crews world wide use this technique to topple steel 
> structures like old buildings - they have sticks of plastic explosive 
> about 2.5" in diameter with about a 1" copper piece in the shape of a 90 
> degree right angle running the length of the explosive. It will cut 
> through quite a chunk of structural steel.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlu
For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or 
penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not 
a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.

The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on 
Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it 
of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.

The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a 
fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet 
to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at 
the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from 
substantially greater distances.

The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A 
half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is 
effective from at least tens of yards.

That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor 
works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor 
detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a 
coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective. 
Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active 
armor is ineffective against an EFP.

If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space 
Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can 
contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment 
field is a big flaky.

Allen



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 21 16:29:20 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:29:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>


>For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or 
>penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not 
>a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.
>
>The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on 
>Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it 
>of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.
>
>The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a 
>fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet 
>to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at 
>the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from 
>substantially greater distances.
>
>The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A 
>half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is 
>effective from at least tens of yards.
>
>That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor 
>works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor 
>detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a 
>coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective. 
>Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active 
>armor is ineffective against an EFP.
>
>If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space 
>Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can 
>contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment 
>field is a big flaky.
>
>Allen
>
WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been 
effective in confusing me ;-)

-dave


From tcameron at redhat.com  Thu Feb 21 16:39:10 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:39:10 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dave Arbogast wrote:
|> For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or
|> penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not
|> a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.
|>
|> The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on
|> Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it
|> of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.
|>
|> The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a
|> fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet
|> to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at
|> the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from
|> substantially greater distances.
|>
|> The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A
|> half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is
|> effective from at least tens of yards.
|>
|> That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor
|> works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor
|> detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a
|> coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective.
|> Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active
|> armor is ineffective against an EFP.
|>
|> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
|> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
|> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
|> field is a big flaky.
|>
|> Allen
|>
| WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
| effective in confusing me ;-)

LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.

- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHve9+mzle50YHwaARArAGAKDQMtGLZl96dc8y244qHUI75RxkkACcDsNn
S4mQlcWcghObL/DRo1sNnBg=
=8Ptp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 21 16:40:02 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 16:40:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>
	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>


>|> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
>|> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
>|> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
>|> field is a big flaky.
>|>
>|> Allen
>|>
>| WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
>| effective in confusing me ;-)
>
>LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
>Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.
>
>- --
>Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>
LOL !!  Would not be the first US Citizen to be hauled there w/o court, 
trial, lawyer, etc.

-dave


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 21 20:21:55 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:21:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>
	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BE23B3.4050807@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> Right now, the worst thing out there is a device called
>> an EFP (explosively formed projectile).  It's an upgrade
>> of a successful assassination method -- the platter charge
>> attached to the bottom of a man-hole cover.
>>
>> An EFP is a steel can, normally set in concrete...the can
>> is filled with explosive, with the detonator near the front,
>> and then covered with a shallow dish made of copper (concave
>> into the can.  When the explosive charge blows, the copper
>> blows-outwards while still maintaining a bond with the
>> rim of the steel can...as pressure builds, the copper
>> distends (easily because it is a ductile metal)...the
>> center of the now outward-bowing bowl is travelling
>> faster than the edges...once the edges release/tear from
>> the rim of the can, they snap inwards...forming a very
>> slender projectile, which by this time is moving at a
>> speed in the range of Mach 4 to Mach 6.
>>
>> As you can imagine, this is extremely devastating to
>> anything it runs into -- even an M1 tank :-/
>>  
>>
> I think you missed one part of the physics of the copper in a EFP - it 
> becomes molten at that point and acts like a plasma cutter when it comes 
> in contact with simple armor.

 From what I've learned about "terminal ballistic", all that really
matters is the momentum.

For example, when figuring out the penetration ability of a
shaped charge (bazooka, law, RPG, panzer-faust), the fact that
the copper cone is vaporized doesn't change the calculations.

They just do the calculation as if it were a slug of copper
travelling at the speed of the plasma jet.


 > That is why the M1 and other advanced
> systems employ composite armor in many places - steel on the outside for 
> conventional projectiles, and other layers of other materials 
> (classified) to stop the plasma injection. The M60 in the Nam had simple 
> steel armor easily penetrated by the Russian RPG with their cone shaped 
> copper in the explosive, so the troops would get badly burned from the 
> molten copper injecting into the tank. This copper at that point did 
> little damage other than burn everything.  So, reactive armor panels 
> were added to the outside of the steel - basically explosive charges 

Right.
Reactive armor is what defeats shaped charges -- the explosive
in the reactive armor prevents the shaped charge from properly
forming a plasma jet against the vehicle armor.

The composite armor you speak of is more for defeating solid shot.

> that would detonate when the molten copper entered them, thus blowing 
> the plasma away.
> -dave
> 
> PS - the demolition crews world wide use this technique to topple steel 
> structures like old buildings - they have sticks of plastic explosive 
> about 2.5" in diameter with about a 1" copper piece in the shape of a 90 
> degree right angle running the length of the explosive. It will cut 
> through quite a chunk of structural steel.

shaped charges are fun ;-)





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 01:50:14 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:50:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>
	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <47BE70A6.6020905@hotpop.com>

Thomas Cameron (Red Hat) wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Dave Arbogast wrote:
> |> For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or
> |> penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not
> |> a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.
> |>
> |> The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on
> |> Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it
> |> of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.
> |>
> |> The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a
> |> fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet
> |> to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at
> |> the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from
> |> substantially greater distances.
> |>
> |> The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A
> |> half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is
> |> effective from at least tens of yards.
> |>
> |> That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor
> |> works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor
> |> detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a
> |> coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective.
> |> Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active
> |> armor is ineffective against an EFP.
> |>
> |> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
> |> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
> |> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
> |> field is a big flaky.
> |>
> |> Allen
> |>
> | WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
> | effective in confusing me ;-)
> 
> LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
> Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.

No classified information there.

The enemy is fully aware that the EFP has a longer effective
range than the jet of a shaped charge.





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 01:50:05 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:50:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>
	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <47BE709D.7010600@hotpop.com>

allen wrote:
>> I think you missed one part of the physics of the copper in a EFP - it 
>> becomes molten at that point and acts like a plasma cutter when it comes 
>> in contact with simple armor. That is why the M1 and other advanced 
>> systems employ composite armor in many places - steel on the outside for 
>> conventional projectiles, and other layers of other materials 
>> (classified) to stop the plasma injection. The M60 in the Nam had simple 
>> steel armor easily penetrated by the Russian RPG with their cone shaped 
>> copper in the explosive, so the troops would get badly burned from the 
>> molten copper injecting into the tank. This copper at that point did 
>> little damage other than burn everything.  So, reactive armor panels 
>> were added to the outside of the steel - basically explosive charges 
>> that would detonate when the molten copper entered them, thus blowing 
>> the plasma away.
>> -dave
>>
>> PS - the demolition crews world wide use this technique to topple steel 
>> structures like old buildings - they have sticks of plastic explosive 
>> about 2.5" in diameter with about a 1" copper piece in the shape of a 90 
>> degree right angle running the length of the explosive. It will cut 
>> through quite a chunk of structural steel.
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlu
> For what it's worth, you're conflating explosively-formed projectiles or 
> penetrators with shaped charges which produce a jet of molten copper not 
> a solid, bullet-shaped projectile.
> 
> The difference shows up best with the utility of the slat armor used on 
> Strykers which detonates the the RPG warhead prematurely thus robbing it 
> of effectiveness but is essentially useless against an EFP.
> 
> The shaped-charge, in order to be effective, has to detonate within a 
> fairly narrow minimum and maximum distance in order for the copper jet 
> to either form, at the minimum distance, or remain in a solid stream at 
> the maximum distance. EFPs are not so encumbered being effective from 
> substantially greater distances.
> 
> The shaped-charge you refer too is a good example of the difference. A 
> half inch or so beyond its maximum range and it's ineffective. An EFP is 
> effective from at least tens of yards.
> 
> That sensitivity to conditions is also how one type of active armor 
> works. The explosive sandwiched between the steel layers of active armor 
> detonates quickly enough to upset the conditions necessary to form a 
> coherent jet of molten copper rendering the munition ineffective. 
> Although I'm not certain, I'd venture a guess that this type of active 
> armor is ineffective against an EFP.

Everything Allen wrote above is 100% correct to the best
of my knowledge.





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 01:50:23 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 01:50:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>
	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> |> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
>> |> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
>> |> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
>> |> field is a big flaky.
>> |>
>> |> Allen
>> |>
>> | WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
>> | effective in confusing me ;-)
>>
>> LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
>> Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.
>>
>> - --
>> Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>>
> LOL !!  Would not be the first US Citizen to be hauled there w/o court, 
> trial, lawyer, etc.

Of course, to get such special treatment, you have to work
at it -- specifically, to train with, and swear allegience
to people who are at war with the United States.

At that point, you're no longer a civilian, and you fall
under Geneva Convention rules.  If you choose to carry out
your struggle without wearing a uniform (which can be as
simple as an identification armband), or do other things
such as setting up military facilities among the civilian
populace, and other ways of deliberately causing your
enemy's actions against you to maximize civilian casualties,
or placing military equipment in protected places (such as
hospitals, religious sites, etc.) then you're a war
criminal, and even the Geneva Convention classfies you as
an "illegal combatant" and you have NO protections --
basically, the life and well-being of an illegal combatant
are at the whim of his or her captors.

Legal combatants must be freed upon the end of hostilities,
as they are not detained for reason of wrong-doing, only to
prevent them from returning to the fight.

Illegal combatants have no such rights.

During WW2, several Germans, along with one U.S. citizen
were landed on the Atlantic Coast, for the purpose of
committing sabotage against American industry.

As they were all dressed in civilian clothes, and wore
nothing to identify themselves as combatants, they
all (including the U.S. Citizen) got the Jose Padilla
treatment.  6 of the 8 were executed, including the
U.S. citizen.

Similarly, although many are reluctant to admit it,
when a bunch of aviators participated in "The Great
Escape" from a German POW camp (yes, the movie is
based on a real event, and quite accurately), and
most wore civilian clothing (or uniforms modified
to look like civilian clothing), and many were
captured, with 50 executed, IN THIS INCIDENT the
Gestapo actually was operating within the Geneva
Convention.







From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Feb 22 10:53:04 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:53:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1

Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
is possible.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tcameron at redhat.com  Fri Feb 22 10:55:03 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 09:55:03 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
	<47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47BEF057.9030700@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Garry Stahl wrote:
|
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
|
| Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
| computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
| encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
| is possible.
|

Best.  Subject.  Ever.

- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHvvBXmzle50YHwaARAvzHAKC188sTaYu0T6SjaKkz2E8jkYW88gCgk2D4
5Z1PMQz5T6MQVKL8IJwDZKo=
=VYpk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From wolfger at gmail.com  Fri Feb 22 11:13:51 2008
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:13:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BEF057.9030700@redhat.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>
	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com> <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
	<47BEF057.9030700@redhat.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330802220813w40e4ce66y9689948a59134037@mail.gmail.com>

I was half expecting this to be viagra spam...

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Cameron (Red Hat)
<tcameron at redhat.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>
>  Garry Stahl wrote:
>  |
>  http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>  |
>  | Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>  | computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>  | encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>  | is possible.
>  |
>
>  Best.  Subject.  Ever.
>
>  - --
>  Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>  Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
>  512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax
>
>  Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
>  http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>  Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
>  Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
>  iD8DBQFHvvBXmzle50YHwaARAvzHAKC188sTaYu0T6SjaKkz2E8jkYW88gCgk2D4
>  5Z1PMQz5T6MQVKL8IJwDZKo=
>  =VYpk
>  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  mdlug mailing list
>  mdlug at mdlug.org
>  http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer


From tcameron at redhat.com  Fri Feb 22 11:27:31 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 10:27:31 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330802220813w40e4ce66y9689948a59134037@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
	<47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>	<47BEF057.9030700@redhat.com>
	<3b00b3330802220813w40e4ce66y9689948a59134037@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BEF7F3.3020101@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I can see it now...  "Honest, honey, it wasn't me, I swear!!!"  With the
thought bublle:  "I KNOW it was encrypted, how did she find out?!?!"

Wolfger wrote:
| I was half expecting this to be viagra spam...
|
| On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Thomas Cameron (Red Hat)
| <tcameron at redhat.com> wrote:
|> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|>  Hash: SHA1
|>
|>
|>  Garry Stahl wrote:
|>  |
|>
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
|>  |
|>  | Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
|>  | computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
|>  | encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready,
but it
|>  | is possible.
|>  |
|>
|>  Best.  Subject.  Ever.
|>
|>  - --
|>  Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
|>  Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
|>  512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax
|>
|>  Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
|>  http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
|>  -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
|>  Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
|>  Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
|>
|>  iD8DBQFHvvBXmzle50YHwaARAvzHAKC188sTaYu0T6SjaKkz2E8jkYW88gCgk2D4
|>  5Z1PMQz5T6MQVKL8IJwDZKo=
|>  =VYpk
|>  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
|>
|>
|> _______________________________________________
|>  mdlug mailing list
|>  mdlug at mdlug.org
|>  http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
|>
|
|
|


- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHvvfzmzle50YHwaARAhqrAKC89o+ehkvcFo8BxYt+jBVBRv9gpwCgtg8v
Auichs99RbiT6Eoag7GYWZw=
=28X+
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb 22 12:06:27 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:06:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>
	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

>Dave Arbogast wrote:
>  
>
>>>|> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
>>>|> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
>>>|> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
>>>|> field is a big flaky.
>>>|>
>>>|> Allen
>>>|>
>>>| WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
>>>| effective in confusing me ;-)
>>>
>>>LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
>>>Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.
>>>
>>>- --
>>>Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>LOL !!  Would not be the first US Citizen to be hauled there w/o court, 
>>trial, lawyer, etc.
>>    
>>
>
>Of course, to get such special treatment, you have to work
>at it -- specifically, to train with, and swear allegience
>to people who are at war with the United States.
>
>At that point, you're no longer a civilian, and you fall
>under Geneva Convention rules.  If you choose to carry out
>your struggle without wearing a uniform (which can be as
>simple as an identification armband), or do other things
>such as setting up military facilities among the civilian
>populace, and other ways of deliberately causing your
>enemy's actions against you to maximize civilian casualties,
>or placing military equipment in protected places (such as
>hospitals, religious sites, etc.) then you're a war
>criminal, and even the Geneva Convention classfies you as
>an "illegal combatant" and you have NO protections --
>basically, the life and well-being of an illegal combatant
>are at the whim of his or her captors.
>
>Legal combatants must be freed upon the end of hostilities,
>as they are not detained for reason of wrong-doing, only to
>prevent them from returning to the fight.
>
>Illegal combatants have no such rights.
>
>During WW2, several Germans, along with one U.S. citizen
>were landed on the Atlantic Coast, for the purpose of
>committing sabotage against American industry.
>
>As they were all dressed in civilian clothes, and wore
>nothing to identify themselves as combatants, they
>all (including the U.S. Citizen) got the Jose Padilla
>treatment.  6 of the 8 were executed, including the
>U.S. citizen.
>
>Similarly, although many are reluctant to admit it,
>when a bunch of aviators participated in "The Great
>Escape" from a German POW camp (yes, the movie is
>based on a real event, and quite accurately), and
>most wore civilian clothing (or uniforms modified
>to look like civilian clothing), and many were
>captured, with 50 executed, IN THIS INCIDENT the
>Gestapo actually was operating within the Geneva
>Convention.
>
>  
>
Then we have become as bad as Joseph Stalin when we ignore our 
Constitution and the Geneva Convention. These "Enemy Combatants" held in 
Cuba were denied protection under the Geneva Convention for YEARS !!  
There were their Red Cross visits ? Don't get me started about water 
boarding either.

We committed various war crimes in W.W.II as well. The fire bombing of 
the German civilian population was intentional and criminal. So were the 
to atomic bombs vaporizing civilians in Japan, putting US citizens in 
prison w/o trial because they had Japanese heritage...  There are more 
examples I am sure.

Part of the responsibility of being the only current super power is 
sticking to the rule of law. We have not been in this war - FISA is 
another good example. Safety is of no value when you trample the very 
liberty from tyranny you are combating. The end does not justify the 
means any more for them than it does for us.

-dave

PS - Stalin literally worked countless former German POW's to death 
after the war. I saw some of the fruits of their forced labor in my 
wife's home town in Ukraine.....  we went on a short trip outside of 
town. The road was the best road I have seen there, but was in the 
middle of nowhere and went to a small group of "summer residences". I 
asked about this road and the laughing response was "It is the Nazi 
road. It has 4m deep foundation rather than normal 1.2m. It was made 
after the war by the German POW's"


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb 22 12:38:05 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:38:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>
	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com> <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>
>  Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>  computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>  encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>  is possible.

The security implications of loading the decryption keys into DRAM is
something I though of myself a while ago.  I hadn't realized that the
data retention was that long without power or that cooling them could
increase the data lifetime.  My theory was that it would be possible
to read the memory bus while the system was active and pick up the
keys that way.  According to the report you can chill the DRAM and
just put it in another system for reading which makes encryption about
as useful as a chastity belt.  I disagree with Steven Sprague about
the effectiveness of hardware-based encryption devices as they also
have to load the key making them just as vulnerable.  The only
advantage they offer is a more complicated architecture that would
have to be reverse engineered first so that an attacker would know
where to look before attempting to find the key (obfuscation).  I was
thinking that storing the key in a CPU register would be better as the
complexity and small feature size would make it a lot harder to
extract.  OpenBSD, IIRC, randomizes memory locations so theoretically
it would be more difficult to find a key (again obfuscation).  I think
the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
before halting or suspending.


From gib at juno.com  Fri Feb 22 13:52:58 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:52:58 GMT
Subject: [mdlug]  Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
Message-ID: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>

 
Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a statement  was made that they recovered the laptop and the encryption was not broken.  I think that once the bad guys have a laptop they can make a copy of the data and then they can allow the laptop to be returned.  They can take their time cracking the data.


-- "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>
>  Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>  computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>  encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>  is possible.

The security implications of loading the decryption keys into DRAM is
something I though of myself a while ago.  I hadn't realized that the
data retention was that long without power or that cooling them could
increase the data lifetime.  My theory was that it would be possible
to read the memory bus while the system was active and pick up the
keys that way.  According to the report you can chill the DRAM and
just put it in another system for reading which makes encryption about
as useful as a chastity belt.  I disagree with Steven Sprague about
the effectiveness of hardware-based encryption devices as they also
have to load the key making them just as vulnerable.  The only
advantage they offer is a more complicated architecture that would
have to be reverse engineered first so that an attacker would know
where to look before attempting to find the key (obfuscation).  I was
thinking that storing the key in a CPU register would be better as the
complexity and small feature size would make it a lot harder to
extract.  OpenBSD, IIRC, randomizes memory locations so theoretically
it would be more difficult to find a key (again obfuscation).  I think
the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
before halting or suspending.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on using seach engines to expand your business.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifVr4L6N73yOzTImEQJlllblPjibWxajC7Lp2ebNLBWDxzFq/


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 22 13:49:28 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:49:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
	<47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BF1938.4000705@ameritech.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>>
>>  Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>>  computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>>  encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>>  is possible.
> 
> The security implications of loading the decryption keys into DRAM is
> something I though of myself a while ago.  I hadn't realized that the
> data retention was that long without power or that cooling them could
> increase the data lifetime.

I was likewise surprised by this. It seems like motherboard
manufacturers adding a "zero all memory" routine to power up, reset,
and power down routines could go quite a ways toward mitigating this
concern.

For that matter, couldn't a "key flush" routine be added to umount
routines to zero the memory location that held the key. DRAM is not
magnetic media that retains "shadows" of its previous states.

> My theory was that it would be possible
> to read the memory bus while the system was active and pick up the
> keys that way. 

But that would require physical access to the memory bus, in which case
you are "owned" from the get go.

<SNIP>

> The only
> advantage they offer is a more complicated architecture that would
> have to be reverse engineered first so that an attacker would know
> where to look before attempting to find the key (obfuscation).  I was
> thinking that storing the key in a CPU register would be better as the
> complexity and small feature size would make it a lot harder to
> extract.  OpenBSD, IIRC, randomizes memory locations so theoretically
> it would be more difficult to find a key (again obfuscation).

Obfuscation wouldn't provide much protection. I've seen other article
mentioning researcher who's developed algorithms for finding crypto keys
in memory dumps, including "error correction" schemes to compensate for
bit rot.

> I think
> the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
> before halting or suspending.

Ah, yes that's my suggestion, you did beat me to it.

I think an understated aspect of this situation is that it pertains to
encrypted filesystems which were "very recently" mounted. I think
something to be taken away from this is that an encrypted file system
that's "always mounted" isn't really very protected.

 This also speaks well of powering notebook computers all the way down,
rather than suspending, before transport, if the security of encrypted
information is important.

Raymond McLaughlin



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 14:00:15 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:00:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
Message-ID: <185566.86775.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It is good programming practice to zero memory resources before you release them.

David 

----- Original Message ----
From: Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 1:49:28 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Dick encryption


Jeff 
Hanson 
wrote:
> 
On 
Fri, 
Feb 
22, 
2008 
at 
10:53 
AM, 
Garry 
Stahl 
<tesral at comcast.net> 
wrote:
>> 
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>>
>>  
Network 
World 
article 
pointing 
out 
that 
who 
controls 
the 
physical
>>  
computer, 
controls 
the 
data 
in 
it.  
There 
is 
a 
method 
to 
crack 
disk
>>  
encryption.  
It 
ain't 
easy, 
and 
you 
would 
have 
to 
have 
it 
ready, 
but 
it
>>  
is 
possible.
> 
> 
The 
security 
implications 
of 
loading 
the 
decryption 
keys 
into 
DRAM 
is
> 
something 
I 
though 
of 
myself 
a 
while 
ago.  
I 
hadn't 
realized 
that 
the
> 
data 
retention 
was 
that 
long 
without 
power 
or 
that 
cooling 
them 
could
> 
increase 
the 
data 
lifetime.

I 
was 
likewise 
surprised 
by 
this. 
It 
seems 
like 
motherboard
manufacturers 
adding 
a 
"zero 
all 
memory" 
routine 
to 
power 
up, 
reset,
and 
power 
down 
routines 
could 
go 
quite 
a 
ways 
toward 
mitigating 
this
concern.

For 
that 
matter, 
couldn't 
a 
"key 
flush" 
routine 
be 
added 
to 
umount
routines 
to 
zero 
the 
memory 
location 
that 
held 
the 
key. 
DRAM 
is 
not
magnetic 
media 
that 
retains 
"shadows" 
of 
its 
previous 
states.

> 
My 
theory 
was 
that 
it 
would 
be 
possible
> 
to 
read 
the 
memory 
bus 
while 
the 
system 
was 
active 
and 
pick 
up 
the
> 
keys 
that 
way. 

But 
that 
would 
require 
physical 
access 
to 
the 
memory 
bus, 
in 
which 
case
you 
are 
"owned" 
from 
the 
get 
go.

<SNIP>

> 
The 
only
> 
advantage 
they 
offer 
is 
a 
more 
complicated 
architecture 
that 
would
> 
have 
to 
be 
reverse 
engineered 
first 
so 
that 
an 
attacker 
would 
know
> 
where 
to 
look 
before 
attempting 
to 
find 
the 
key 
(obfuscation).  
I 
was
> 
thinking 
that 
storing 
the 
key 
in 
a 
CPU 
register 
would 
be 
better 
as 
the
> 
complexity 
and 
small 
feature 
size 
would 
make 
it 
a 
lot 
harder 
to
> 
extract.  
OpenBSD, 
IIRC, 
randomizes 
memory 
locations 
so 
theoretically
> 
it 
would 
be 
more 
difficult 
to 
find 
a 
key 
(again 
obfuscation).

Obfuscation 
wouldn't 
provide 
much 
protection. 
I've 
seen 
other 
article
mentioning 
researcher 
who's 
developed 
algorithms 
for 
finding 
crypto 
keys
in 
memory 
dumps, 
including 
"error 
correction" 
schemes 
to 
compensate 
for
bit 
rot.

> 
I 
think
> 
the 
Linux 
solution 
is 
to 
have 
the 
kernel 
wipe 
entire 
memory 
space
> 
before 
halting 
or 
suspending.

Ah, 
yes 
that's 
my 
suggestion, 
you 
did 
beat 
me 
to 
it.

I 
think 
an 
understated 
aspect 
of 
this 
situation 
is 
that 
it 
pertains 
to
encrypted 
filesystems 
which 
were 
"very 
recently" 
mounted. 
I 
think
something 
to 
be 
taken 
away 
from 
this 
is 
that 
an 
encrypted 
file 
system
that's 
"always 
mounted" 
isn't 
really 
very 
protected.

 
This 
also 
speaks 
well 
of 
powering 
notebook 
computers 
all 
the 
way 
down,
rather 
than 
suspending, 
before 
transport, 
if 
the 
security 
of 
encrypted
information 
is 
important.

Raymond 
McLaughlin

_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 22 13:59:10 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:59:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47BF1B7E.3070609@ameritech.net>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
> Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier
> to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data
> by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
> I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The
> inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a statement
> was made that they recovered the laptop and the encryption was not
> broken.  I think that once the bad guys have a laptop they can make
> a copy of the data and then they can allow the laptop to be returned.
> They can take their time cracking the data.

The questions become: How much time? and How much resources (computing
power). Remember that every bit added to a key's length *doubles* the
number of possible values of the key, hence doubling the difficulty of
brute recovery. I've seen estimates putting the power required to break
a 256 bit key at something like "all the computers in the world running
nonstop for the rest of the age of the universe." But I'm not sure how
good the starting numbers were.




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb 22 14:11:24 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:11:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <47BF1B7E.3070609@ameritech.net>
References: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
	<47BF1B7E.3070609@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47BF1E5C.7080501@arb.net>



Raymond McLaughlin wrote:

>gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
>
>> 
>>Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier
>>to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data
>>by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
>>I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The
>>inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a statement
>>was made that they recovered the laptop and the encryption was not
>>broken.  I think that once the bad guys have a laptop they can make
>>a copy of the data and then they can allow the laptop to be returned.
>>They can take their time cracking the data.
>>    
>>
>
>The questions become: How much time? and How much resources (computing
>power). Remember that every bit added to a key's length *doubles* the
>number of possible values of the key, hence doubling the difficulty of
>brute recovery. I've seen estimates putting the power required to break
>a 256 bit key at something like "all the computers in the world running
>nonstop for the rest of the age of the universe." But I'm not sure how
>good the starting numbers were.
>
Yeah, by far easier to find some weakness in the architecture and 
exploit that.

-dave


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb 22 14:15:06 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:15:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165478@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: gib at juno.com

> Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier 
> to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the 
> data by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely 
> safe, right?

 Well, yes and no. If an encryption scheme is solid-enough that brute-force
guessing is your scheme, and the key is sufficiently large, then there's no
realistic chance of breaking the encryption. Bruce Schneier has an article
somewhere where he shows that you'd need all the energy the Sun has produced
and ever will produce just to cycle a 256-bit register through all 2^256
possible values. As he put it: "[B]rute force attacks against 256-bit keys
will be infeasible until computers are built from something other than matter
and occupy something other than space."

 *However*, many encryption schemes have ways to drastically reduce the number
of guesses needed. Public-key algorithms, for example, just require factoring
a number, which is much simpler. They compensate by making the numbers much
bigger. Fortunately disk encryption tends to use symmetric-key algorithms from
what I understand, and there are cyphers for which there's no publicly known
attack better than brute-force guessing.

 *Further however*, just because an attack isn't *publicly* known doesn't mean
that there isn't one that's *privately* known. For example, there are
documented cases where it's been shown that the NSA knew about types of attacks
on encryption schemes decades before they were published academically.

 *Further further however*, in practice encryption keys usually need to be
remembered by humans, and not too inconvenient to type in. These are fairly
severe limitations and 'dictionary' attacks, as well as related schemes, are
often successful.

 Generally-speaking if your encrypted data may have been copied for offline
attack, it's best to assume that it *will* be broken eventually, and take
whatever steps may be appropriate. So long as a reasonable encryption scheme
has been chosen, you're likely to have some time to do so.

 As has been noted, adding a way to wipe DRAM on power-loss would be a defense
against the attack that sparked this thread. I'd imagine military/security
hardware might be built with a capacitor on-chip - if the Vcc signal is lost,
it uses the power stored in the capacitor to wipe the RAM cells...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                (313) 227-2317

  "Certitude is not the test of certainty." - Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 22 14:27:02 2008
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:27:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
Message-ID: <539394.81979.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

An other thing to note when a file is deleted it is simply deleted from the Disk table, and the sectors that have the data is still populated with the file data.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: "Ingles, Raymond" <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 2:15:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable


> 
From: 
gib at juno.com

> 
Okay, 
I 
understand 
that 
having 
the 
key 
makes 
it 
a 
lot 
easier 
> 
to 
decrypt 
the 
data. 
But 
isn't 
it 
possible 
to 
decrypt 
the 
> 
data 
by 
brute 
force 
too?  
 
So, 
encryption 
is 
not 
completely 
> 
safe, 
right?

 
Well, 
yes 
and 
no. 
If 
an 
encryption 
scheme 
is 
solid-enough 
that 
brute-force
guessing 
is 
your 
scheme, 
and 
the 
key 
is 
sufficiently 
large, 
then 
there's 
no
realistic 
chance 
of 
breaking 
the 
encryption. 
Bruce 
Schneier 
has 
an 
article
somewhere 
where 
he 
shows 
that 
you'd 
need 
all 
the 
energy 
the 
Sun 
has 
produced
and 
ever 
will 
produce 
just 
to 
cycle 
a 
256-bit 
register 
through 
all 
2^256
possible 
values. 
As 
he 
put 
it: 
"[B]rute 
force 
attacks 
against 
256-bit 
keys
will 
be 
infeasible 
until 
computers 
are 
built 
from 
something 
other 
than 
matter
and 
occupy 
something 
other 
than 
space."

 
*However*, 
many 
encryption 
schemes 
have 
ways 
to 
drastically 
reduce 
the 
number
of 
guesses 
needed. 
Public-key 
algorithms, 
for 
example, 
just 
require 
factoring
a 
number, 
which 
is 
much 
simpler. 
They 
compensate 
by 
making 
the 
numbers 
much
bigger. 
Fortunately 
disk 
encryption 
tends 
to 
use 
symmetric-key 
algorithms 
from
what 
I 
understand, 
and 
there 
are 
cyphers 
for 
which 
there's 
no 
publicly 
known
attack 
better 
than 
brute-force 
guessing.

 
*Further 
however*, 
just 
because 
an 
attack 
isn't 
*publicly* 
known 
doesn't 
mean
that 
there 
isn't 
one 
that's 
*privately* 
known. 
For 
example, 
there 
are
documented 
cases 
where 
it's 
been 
shown 
that 
the 
NSA 
knew 
about 
types 
of 
attacks
on 
encryption 
schemes 
decades 
before 
they 
were 
published 
academically.

 
*Further 
further 
however*, 
in 
practice 
encryption 
keys 
usually 
need 
to 
be
remembered 
by 
humans, 
and 
not 
too 
inconvenient 
to 
type 
in. 
These 
are 
fairly
severe 
limitations 
and 
'dictionary' 
attacks, 
as 
well 
as 
related 
schemes, 
are
often 
successful.

 
Generally-speaking 
if 
your 
encrypted 
data 
may 
have 
been 
copied 
for 
offline
attack, 
it's 
best 
to 
assume 
that 
it 
*will* 
be 
broken 
eventually, 
and 
take
whatever 
steps 
may 
be 
appropriate. 
So 
long 
as 
a 
reasonable 
encryption 
scheme
has 
been 
chosen, 
you're 
likely 
to 
have 
some 
time 
to 
do 
so.

 
As 
has 
been 
noted, 
adding 
a 
way 
to 
wipe 
DRAM 
on 
power-loss 
would 
be 
a 
defense
against 
the 
attack 
that 
sparked 
this 
thread. 
I'd 
imagine 
military/security
hardware 
might 
be 
built 
with 
a 
capacitor 
on-chip 
- 
if 
the 
Vcc 
signal 
is 
lost,
it 
uses 
the 
power 
stored 
in 
the 
capacitor 
to 
wipe 
the 
RAM 
cells...

 
Sincerely,

 
Ray 
Ingles  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
(313) 
227-2317

  
"Certitude 
is 
not 
the 
test 
of 
certainty." 
- 
Oliver 
Wendell 
Holmes, 
Jr.
The 
contents 
of 
this 
e-mail 
are 
intended 
for 
the 
named 
addressee 
only. 
It 
contains 
information 
that 
may 
be 
confidential. 
Unless 
you 
are 
the 
named 
addressee 
or 
an 
authorized 
designee, 
you 
may 
not 
copy 
or 
use 
it, 
or 
disclose 
it 
to 
anyone 
else. 
If 
you 
received 
it 
in 
error 
please 
notify 
us 
immediately 
and 
then 
destroy 
it.
_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Feb 22 14:23:52 2008
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:23:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption
In-Reply-To: <185566.86775.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <319C03F7A120754B9128CF308BF5E037165479@nasa-dtw-ex004.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: David Lane

> It is good programming practice to zero memory resources 
> before you release them.

 In my "Ostiary" program, I handled the memory that holds password values
carefully. First, there's a syscall named mlock() that locks pages of memory
into RAM, preventing them from being swapped to disk; this ensures that examining
the swap partition or whatever won't find passwords.

 Second, you can zero-out memory before freeing it, but an optimizing compiler
might 'notice' that you don't use that memory after setting it to zero, and
'helpfully' eliminate those calls to improve the speed of the program. Fortunately,
in C, there's a way to tell the compiler "Yes, I really know what I'm doing, don't
optimize this away." Here's the call I use for wiping out such memory:

void *forced_memset(void *v, int c, size_t n)
{
  volatile char *p=v;
  while (n--) {
    *p++=c;
  }
  return v;
}

 It's the "volatile" keyword that does the magic. That tells the compiler that
it's memory-access algorithms don't apply to that variable.

 The full source code is at http://ingles.homeunix.net/software/ost/

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "A true leader now would tell Americans the unpopular truth:
   that we use too much energy, that we are spoiled children
   whose appetite for oil is making us weak and vulnerable."
  - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 22 14:42:25 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:42:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <539394.81979.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <539394.81979.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47BF25A1.20604@ameritech.net>

David Lane wrote:
> An other thing to note when a file is deleted it is simply deleted from the Disk table, and the sectors that have the data is still populated with the file data.
> 
> David 

This is where secure deletion, and tools like shred come in.

Ray
P.S.
David,
Can you please fix your mailer so it doesn't
break
the
replied
to
messages
up
like
this?
RSM


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Fri Feb 22 15:59:41 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:59:41 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Dick encryption
In-Reply-To: <185566.86775.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <185566.86775.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802221259i739a41chb18f25c1d8b5e34b@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 11:00 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> It is good programming practice to zero memory resources before you release them.

In this case, it doesn't matter and won't help.  The keys are in
memory when the power gets cut.  Then, they may not reboot the same
computer.  Sticks may be removed and placed in another one that does
not ZERO memory on boot.  ECC memory, iirc, may mitigate this, but I
am unsure.  Worth investigating...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 22 21:34:38 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 21:34:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's Mailbag - O'Reilly  News
Message-ID: <47BF863E.7070704@ameritech.net>

================================================================
O'Reilly News for User Group Members
February 22, 2008
================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------
New Releases--Books, Short Cuts, and Rough Cuts
----------------------------------------------------------------
Get 35% off from O'Reilly, No Starch, Paraglyph, PC Publishing,
Pragmatic Bookshelf, Rocky Nook, SitePoint, or YoungJin books you
purchase directly from O'Reilly. Just use code DSUG when ordering online
or by phone 800-998-9938.
<http://www.oreilly.com/store/>

Free ground shipping on orders of $29.95 or more.
For more details, go to:
<http://www.oreilly.com/news/freeshipping_0703.html>

Did you know you can request a free book or PDF to review for your
group? Ask your group leader for more information.

For book review writing tips and suggestions, go to:
<http://ug.oreilly.com/bookreviews.html>


*** Augmented Reality  (Pragmatic Bookshelf)
ISBN10:  1934356034
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781934356036>

*** C# 3.0 Pocket Reference, Second Edition
ISBN10:  0596519222
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596519223>

*** CRAFT: Volume 06
ISBN10:  0596518196
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596518196>

*** Enterprise Application Development with Flex
ISBN10:  0596514409
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514402>

*** Groovy Recipes (Pragmatic Bookshelf)
ISBN10:  0978739299
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780978739294>

*** Hacking: The Art of Exploitation, Second Edition (No Starch)
ISBN10:  1593271441
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/1593271441>

*** iPhone Open Application Development: Rough Cuts Version
ISBN10:  0596519516
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596519513>

*** The LEGO MINDSTORMS NXT Zoo! (No Starch)
ISBN10:  1593271700
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781593271701>

*** LINQ Pocket Reference
ISBN10:  0596519249
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596519247>

*** Rails for PHP Developers (Pragmatic Bookshelf)
ISBN10:  1934356042
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781934356043>

*** ScreenOS Cookbook
ISBN10:  0596510039
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596510039>

*** Sound Mixing Tips and Tricks (PC Publishing)
ISBN10:  1906005044
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781906005047>

*** Subject To Change: Creating Great Products & Services for an
Uncertain World
ISBN10:  0596516835
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596516833>

*** Switching to the Mac: The Missing Manual, Leopard Edition
ISBN10:  0596514123
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514129>

*** Take Control of Your iPhone (TidBITS)
ISBN10:  1933671343
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781933671345>

*** The Ultimate CSS Reference (Hard Cover) (SitePoint)
ISBN10:  0980285852
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780980285857>

*** Up and Running with Joomla
ISBN10:  0596515847
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596515843>

*** Wicked Cool PHP (No Starch)
ISBN10:  1593271735
<http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9781593271732>


***MAKE Magazine Subscriptions
The annual subscription price for four issues is $34.95. When you
subscribe with this link, you'll get a free issue--one plus four
more for $34.95. So subscribe for yourself or friends with this
great offer for UG Members: five volumes for the cost of four.
Subscribe at:
<http://www.makezine.com/go/ugsub>


***Craft Magazine Subscriptions
The annual subscription price for four issues is $34.95. When you
subscribe with this link, you'll get a free issue--one plus
four more for $34.95. So subscribe for yourself or friends with this
great offer for UG Members: five volumes for the cost of four.
Subscribe at:
<http://www.craftzine.com/go/craftug>

================================================
Upcoming Events
================================================
For more events, please see:
<http://events.oreilly.com/>

***O'Reilly Sponsors Code4lib Conference 2008, Portland, OR--Feb 25-28
The Code4lib Conference is an outgrowth of a highly successful Access
Hackfest, wrapped into a conference format. The attendees are the folks
who implement, program, administer, and manage the systems and software
libraries use. Gold sponsorship by TOC Division.
<http://code4lib.org/conference>


***E.A. Vander Veer on WDEV Radio Live--Feb 26
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on WDEV-AM & FM Radio at 8:05am Central Time on February 26th,
2008. She will be speaking for 20 minutes on various topics regarding
Facebook, security, and applications. Be sure to tune in!
<http://www.wdevradio.com/index-home.asp>


***E.A. Vander Veer on WHAM Rochester New York--Feb 26
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on WHAM Rochester NY for the Chet & Beth morning show at 8:30am
Central Time on February 26th, 2008. She will be speaking for 10 minutes
on various topics regarding Facebook, security, and applications. Be
sure to tune in!
<http://www.wham1180.com/main.html>


***PHP Conference, London, UK--Feb 29
The PHP Conference represents a great opportunity for delegates with a
potential audience that includes web-developers, programmers,
open-source enthusiasts, and business-people. As well as being able to
hear about some of the most interesting current topics within PHP from
people at the forefront of the technology, delegates will also have the
opportunity to network with the other attendees. O'Reilly will be there,
so come and browse our latest books and benefit from a 35% discount on
the day.
<http://www.phpconference.co.uk/>


***E.A. Vander Veer on the Jan Michkelson Show--Feb 29
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on the Jan Mickelson Show for WHO-AM in Des Moines at 9:05am
Central Time on February 29th, 2008. She will be speaking for 30 minutes
on various topics regarding Facebook, security, and applications. Be
sure to tune in!
<http://www.whoradio.com/main.html>


***Barcamp, Manchester, UK--Mar 1
It's been in the works for a while now, but it finally got announced:
BarCamp is coming to Manchester! And O'Reilly will be there with all
kinds of goodies. Do come and have a chat.
<http://barcamp.org/BarCampManchesterUk>


***Sean Duggan Presents "Creative Collage with Adobe Photoshop",
  Monteray, CA--Mar 1-2, 2008
This weekend workshop will focus on using Adobe Photoshop CS2 to explore
the art of the photographic composite. Explorations will range from
simple collages and blended overlays to combining two exposures of the
same scene to control contrast, to the creation of surreal,
photo-realistic flights of fancy. Topics include: masking and knockout
techniques; layers and layer groups; simple collages based on image
overlays, blend modes and opacity; advanced blending options; precision
collage control with layer masks; image transformation tools including
Free Transform and Warp; Using Smart Objects to preserve flexibility of
transformed elements; creating a photo-realistic collage from different
source photos; multi-exposure composites to control contrast; matching
color and lighting between images.
<http://www.montereyadultschool.com/seanduggan.html>


***O'Reilly at SD West, Santa Clara, CA--Mar 3-7
Stop by the O'Reilly booth (# 407) to check out our books and say hello.
<http://www.sdexpo.com/>


***O'Reilly Beautiful Code Authors at SD West 2008,
  Santa Clara, CA--Mar 3
Meet Beautiful Code Authors Elliotte Rusty Harold, Author/Adjunct
Professor, Polytechnic University; Michael Feathers, Senior
Trainer/Mentor/Consultant, Object Mentor; Alberto Savoia, CTO, Agitar
Software; Christopher Seiwald, CEO, Perforce. What makes code beautiful?
Is it all in the eye of the beholder or is there an aesthetic of code we
can all agree on? How important is it for code to be beautiful? What
trade-offs can or should be made in the name of beauty? Come hear
several authors of the best-selling O'Reilly book Beautiful Code discuss
these and other questions.
<http://www.sdexpo.com/>


***O'Reilly WCF Authors at SD West 2008, Santa Clara, CA--Mar 3-7
Meet Learning WCF Author, Michele Bustamante, Chief Architect, IDesign,
Inc. and Programming WCF Services Author, Juval Lowy, President,
IDesign, Inc.
<https://www.cmpevents.com/SDw8/a.asp?option=Chttps://www.cmpevents.com/SDw8/a.asp?option=C>


***E.A. Vander Veer on the Kathryn Zox Show--Mar 3
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on the Kathryn Zox Show with WMET-AM Washington at 11:30am
Central Time on March 3rd, 2008. She will be speaking for 30 minutes on
various topics regarding Facebook, security, and applications. Be sure
to tune in!
<http://wmet1160.com/>


***Emerging Technology Conference (ETech), San Diego, CA--Mar 4-6
The O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference (ETech) centers on future
technologies that truly matter. From robotics, health care, and space
travel to gaming, finance, and art, ETech explores promising
technologies new to the innovation horizon, and investigates those that
have been on the horizon too long.
<http://en.oreilly.com/et2008/public/content/home>


***Jesse Liberty at MIX08, Las Vegas, NV--Mar 5-7
Author Jesse Liberty (Programming .NET 3.5 and Learning ASP.NET with
AJAX) will be talking about Microsoft Silverlight.
<http://visitmix.com/2008/default.aspx>


***O'Reilly Authors Host Book Readings at SXSW, Austin, TX--Mar 7-11
O'Reilly authors Steve Souders (High Performance Web Sites), Todd
Wilkens (Subject to Change), Michael Yuan (Nokia Smartphone Hacks) and
Thomas Myer (Lead Generation on the Web) are participating in "Book
Readings at the South by Bookstore" during SXSW 2008.
<http://2008.sxsw.com/interactive/programming/readings/>


***O'Reilly at SXSW Interactive, Austin, TX--Mar 9-11
The SXSW Interactive Festival brings together the world's most creative
web developers, designers, bloggers, wireless innovators, and new media
entrepreneurs. While you're there, stop by the O'Reilly booth to say hi,
and pick up some great new books.
<http://sxsw.com/>


***QCon London 2008, London, UK--Mar 10-14
QCon London 2008 is an Enterprise Software Development Conference,
providing a venue for learning, networking, and tracking innovation in
Java, .Net, Ruby, SOA, Languages of tomorrow, Banking Architectures,
Agile, Scrum and Software Architecture and Design. Come and meet some of
our authors at our booth. Book now and quote promo code:
oreilly_qconlondon2008 and get a discount.
<http://qcon.infoq.com/london/conference/>


***Derrick Story at Windsor Senior Computer User's Group,
  Rohnert Park, CA--Mar 10
Author Derrick Story (The Digital Photography Companion, iPhoto 8: The
Missing Manual, and Digital Photography Hacks) presents "Digital
Photography Tips, Tricks, and Stunts."
<http://www.sonic.net/donna/windsor.html>


***O'Reilly at SPE (Society for Photographic Education),
  Denver, CO--Mar 14-15
The Society for Photographic Education is the longest-lived and largest
association devoted to photography and related media as it applies to
education, practice, and scholarship. While you're at the 45th National
Conference, stop by the O'Reilly booth to say hi, and check out our
great new books.
<http://www.spenational.org/conference/conf2008/index.html>


***O'Reilly at PyCon, Chicago, IL--Mar 14-15
Look for O'Reilly authors Noah Gift, Van Lindberg, and Brian
Fitzpatrick. Stop by the O'Reilly booth to say hi and pick up some great
new books.
<http://us.pycon.org/2008/about/>


***Sean Duggan Presents a Week-long Seminar: Creative Photoshop
  Enhancements for Photographers, Delray Beach, FL--Mar 17-21
Sean Duggan's (The Creative Digital Darkroom) week-long seminar at the
Palm Beach Photographic Centre combines presentation, artistic
discovery, making photographs and exploring the creative possibilities
for image transformation in the digital darkroom. Prerequisites include
Imaging Overview or equivalent experience.
<http://www.workshop.org/pages/sean_duggan_creative_darkroom.html>


***E.A. Vander Veer on Computer Outlook Radio--Mar 17
E.A. Vander Veer (author of the new Facebook: The Missing Manual) will
be live on Computer Outlook Radio at 7pm Central Time on March 3rd,
2008. She will be speaking for an hour on various topics regarding
Facebook. Be sure to tune in!
<http://www.computeroutlook.com/>

================================================
Conference News
================================================
***Web 2.0 Expo New York, NY--September 16-19
The Call for Participation is now open. Web 2.0 Expo is for the builders
of the next generation web: designers, developers, entrepreneurs,
marketers, business strategists, and venture capitalists. O'Reilly and
CMP are seeking the best and brightest in the Web 2.0 universe to show
the world how the next Internet Revolution is being designed and
delivered.
<http://www.web2expo.com/ny>

To submit a proposal to speak at Web 2.0 Expo, go to:
<http://en.oreilly.com/webexny2008/public/cfp/18>


***O'Reilly GSP West Conference--San Diego, CA--March 3-4
This two-day conference presents a behind-the-scenes look at the
business and technology of social networking platforms. With MySpace,
Facebook, and Flickr attracting millions of visitors each day, the
implications for business, marketing, and software developers are
enormous.
<http://conferences.oreilly.com/gspwest/>

Use code "gspw08usrg" when you register, and receive 15% off
the registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
<http://en.oreilly.com/gspwest2008/public/content/register>


***Registration for ETech Open, San Diego, CA--March 3-6
Body hacking. DIY spectrum. Crowd visualization. Sensor games. ETech
2008 will explore the tech that's influencing how we're seen as
individuals and what affects our perception of the world around us.
<http://conferences.oreilly.com/etech/>

Use code "et08usrg" when you register and receive 15% off
the registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
<http://en.oreilly.com/et2008/public/content/register>


***2008 MySQL Conference & Expo Registration is Open,
   Santa Clara, CA--April 14-17
The largest gathering of MySQL developers, users, and DBAs worldwide,
the event reflects MySQL's wide-ranging appeal and capabilities. The
open atmosphere of the MySQL Conference & Expo helps IT professionals
and community members to create the best database applications, tools,
and software through expert instruction, hands-on tutorials, readily
available MySQL developers, and guru business advice.

Use code "mys08usrg" when you register, and receive 15% off
the registration price. Early registration discount deadline
ends February 26.


To register for the conference, go to:
<https://en.oreilly.com/mysql2008/public/register>


****Web Expo SF Registration is Open, San Francisco, CA--Apr 22-25
A companion event to the Web 2.0 Summit, Web 2.0 Expo is an expanded,
inclusive gathering for the technology and business communities through
a combined conference and tradeshow.

Use code "websf08ug" when you register and receive $100 off any
conference package or a free expo hall pass. Early registration discount
deadline ends March 20.

To register for the conference, go to:
<https://en.oreilly.com/webexsf2008/public/register>


***Where 2.0 2008 is Open, Burlingame, CA--May 12-14, 2008
At the O'Reilly Where 2.0 Conference, we expose the tools pushing the
boundaries of the location frontier, track the emergence of new business
models and services, and spend time examining new sources of data and
the platforms for collecting them.

Use code "whr08usrg" when you register, and receive 15% off
the registration price. Early registration discount deadline
ends March 23.

To register for the conference, go to:
<https://en.oreilly.com/where2008/public/register>


****Registration for RailsConf 2008 is Open, Portland, OR--
May 29-June 1, 2008
Co-produced by Ruby Central and O'Reilly Media, RailsConf is "the" event
for the growing Rails Community--the largest official gathering
dedicatedto everything Rails. If you're passionate about Rails and what
it helps you achieve--or if you're curious about how Rails can help you
create web applications better and faster--this conference is the place
to be.

Use code "rc08usrg" when you register, and receive 15% off
the registration price.

To register for the conference, go to:
<https://en.oreilly.com/rails2008/public/register>

================================================
O'Reilly School of Technology
================================================
***O'Reilly School of Technology Courses: UG Members Receive
   a 30% Discount
O'Reilly School of Technology has opened its virtual doors with
educational offerings and certification for IT students looking to
further their careers or to launch one. As an O'Reilly User Group
member, you save on all the courses in the following University of
Illinois Certificate Series:

-PHP/SQL Programming--New!
-Linux/Unix System Administration
-Web Programming
-Open Source Programming
-.NET Programming
-Client-Side Web Programming featuring AJAX

To redeem, use Promotion Code "ORALL1" good for a 30% discount,
in Step #2 of the enrollment process. Each course comes with a free
O'Reilly book and a 7-day money-back guarantee.
Register online:
<http://www.oreillyschool.com/?CMP=BAC-ostug>

================================================
News From O'Reilly & Beyond
================================================
---------------------
UG News
---------------------
***Toronto Asterisk Users' Group at IT360.ca
The Toronto Asterisk Users' Group has been working closely with
IT360.ca conference organizers in Toronto and have put together an
excellent Asterisk track. Speakers this year include "Asterisk: The
Future of Telephony" authors Jim Van Meggelen, Leif Madsen, and Jared
Smith.
<http://www.it360.ca/>


***New York Times Spotlights Myths of Innovation
"Epiphany has little to do with either creativity or innovation.
Instead, innovation is a slow process of accretion, building small
insight upon interesting fact upon tried-and-true process" writes Janet
Rae-Dupree in her Sunday New York Times column featuring Scott Berkun's
"The Myths of Innovation."
<http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/business/03unbox.html?_r=1&ex=1202706000&en=70b7758cdbdbd746&ei=5070&emc=eta1&oref=slogin>


***How to Prevent Windows Vista's 'Green Ribbon of Death'
Here's an excerpt from "Windows Vista Annoyances" at Computerworld.
<http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyId=89&articleId=9063060&intsrc=hm_topic>


***Installfest for Schools, Four Locations in the SF Bay Area, March 1
Signup and join an installfest in San Francisco, Berkeley, San Mateo, or
Novato, CA and help the local schools at this open source community event.
<http://untangle.com/installfest>


***Leo Leporte's Interview with O'Reilly author Mikkel Aaland
<http://techguylabs.com/radio/ShowNotes/Show430#toc3>


***Exploring Online Technical Information
Editor Andy Oram posted several blogs exploring online technical
information and its relation to professional computer books:

-Educating computer users: the need for community/author collaboration
<http://praxagora.com/andyo/professional/community_author_collaboration.html>

-Two tools we need to improve online information
<http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/01/two_tools_we_ne.html>

-Developing an improved online environment for educating computer users
<http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/02/developing_an_i.html>


***DIY O'Reilly Gear
Create Your Own Calendar, Shirt, Notebook, Poster...In just three easy
steps you can create one of a kind calendars, greeting cards, keychains,
luggage tags, magnets, mousepads, mugs, notebooks, postcards, posters,
shirts, hoodies, and stickers adorned with your favorite O'Reilly
animals.
<http://www.qoop.com/photobooks/photofront/pub_store.php?pub_name=oreilly>

---------------------
Articles
---------------------
***A Look Back at 10 Years of OSI
It's been 10 years since the Open Source Initiative was launched, and
what a 10 years it has been. Open Source has gone from an obscure and
radical concept to a vibrant sector of the software landscape. For the
10th Anniversary, our faithful newshound Federico Biancuzzi talked to
some of the early pioneers of the OSI (such as Bruce Perens and Eric
Raymond) about where it came from and how it is relevant today.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/onlamp/2008/02/12/a-look-back-at-10-years-of-osi.html>


***Aperture 2.0 with Joe Schorr
Aperture 2.0 is faster, easier to use, and produces better images, says
Joe Schorr, Apple Senior Product Manager. In this interview with Derrick
Story, Joe explains how Aperture 2.0 meets those lofty claims. This chat
covers a lot of new ground.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/02/12/aperture-2-with-joe-schorr.html>


***Using Xenn for High Availability Clusters
Virtualization is one approach that you can take to implementing
clusters. But you still have to arrange to handle failures in a
high-availability environment. Here's one solution, using Xen.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/onlamp/2008/02/05/using-xen-for-high-availabilty-clusters.html>


***Developing RESTful Web Services in Perl
REST has become a widely used alternative to protocols such as SOAP,
providing a simpler way to tell your server what you want to do without
all that messy WSDL stuff. In this article, you'll see how to create a
RESTful web service, using Perl.
<http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2008/02/19/developing-restful-web-services-in-perl.html>


***Music Technology at NAMM 2008
Part 1: America's biggest musical instrument show debuted more high-tech
wonders than ever this year. O'Reilly Digital Media prowled NAMM's five
massive, noisy halls to bring back these high-tech hits.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/24/2008-namm-report.html>

Part 2: We're back from NAMM 2008 with even more intriguing new gadgets
and gear. Once again, the throbbing halls of America's biggest musical
instrument trade show introduced a torrent of high-tech goodness. From a
$99 Steinway to a truly killer guitar, from audible notation to singing
keys, here's what you'll be playing this year.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/31/2008-namm-report-part-2.html>


***Katrin Eismann's Digital Darkroom Magic
Katrin Eismann, coauthor of The Creative Digital Darkroom, sat down with
Derrick Story at PhotoPlus Expo in New York for a chat about how the
darkroom has evolved from chemical-based to digital, and how that
evolution has influenced her approach to image making. Katrin touches on
many interesting topics, including her explanation on 3-step sharpening.
<http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2008/01/29/katrin-eismanns-digital-darkroom-magic.html>


For more articles, go to:
<http://www.oreillynet.com/>

---------------------
Blogs
-------------------
***Community Pricing for Books
<http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/02/community_pricing_for_books.html>

***Ruby Turns 15 and Other Important Stuff
<http://www.oreillynet.com/fyi/blog/2008/02/ruby_turns_15_and_other_import.html>

***10 Things Every Parent Should Know About Facebook
<http://www.oreillynet.com/fyi/blog/2008/02/10_things_every_parent_should.html>

***Mac FFOSS (Freeware/Free & Open Source Software)
<http://blogs.oreilly.com/digitalmedia/2008/02/mac-ffoss-freewarefree-open-so-3.html>

***Where Did the Courier & Helvetica Fonts Go?
<http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2008/02/where_did_the_courier_and_helv_1.html>

***O'Reilly Books and the Cuban Internet
<http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2008/01/folks_are_often.html>

***Learning Flex From Scratch: Meet the Authors, Meet Flex
<http://www.insideria.com/2008/02/lffs1-meet-the-authors-meet-fl.html>

***Sonar for your Home
<http://blogs.oreilly.com/digitalmedia/2008/02/sonar-for-your-home.html>


For more blogs, go to:
<http://www.oreillynet.com/blogs/>

Until next time--

Marsee Henon


================================================================
O'Reilly
1005 Gravenstein Highway North
Sebastopol, CA   95472
http://ug.oreilly.com/  http://ug.oreilly.com/creativemedia/
================================================================



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 20:38:04 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 20:38:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>
	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
>> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>  
>>
>>>> |> If anyone's interested in building an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space
>>>> |> Modulator I've got a neutronium barrel - practically new - that I can
>>>> |> contribute to the project. Full disclosure: the anti-matter containment
>>>> |> field is a big flaky.
>>>> |>
>>>> |> Allen
>>>> |>
>>>> | WOW!  I guess the censorship of our press during this war has been
>>>> | effective in confusing me ;-)
>>>>
>>>> LOL - and I was just wondering when the FBI was going to show up at
>>>> Allen's door and cart him off to Gitmo.
>>>>
>>>> - --
>>>> Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>> LOL !!  Would not be the first US Citizen to be hauled there w/o court, 
>>> trial, lawyer, etc.
>>>    
>>>
>> Of course, to get such special treatment, you have to work
>> at it -- specifically, to train with, and swear allegience
>> to people who are at war with the United States.
>>
>> At that point, you're no longer a civilian, and you fall
>> under Geneva Convention rules.  If you choose to carry out
>> your struggle without wearing a uniform (which can be as
>> simple as an identification armband), or do other things
>> such as setting up military facilities among the civilian
>> populace, and other ways of deliberately causing your
>> enemy's actions against you to maximize civilian casualties,
>> or placing military equipment in protected places (such as
>> hospitals, religious sites, etc.) then you're a war
>> criminal, and even the Geneva Convention classfies you as
>> an "illegal combatant" and you have NO protections --
>> basically, the life and well-being of an illegal combatant
>> are at the whim of his or her captors.
>>
>> Legal combatants must be freed upon the end of hostilities,
>> as they are not detained for reason of wrong-doing, only to
>> prevent them from returning to the fight.
>>
>> Illegal combatants have no such rights.
>>
>> During WW2, several Germans, along with one U.S. citizen
>> were landed on the Atlantic Coast, for the purpose of
>> committing sabotage against American industry.
>>
>> As they were all dressed in civilian clothes, and wore
>> nothing to identify themselves as combatants, they
>> all (including the U.S. Citizen) got the Jose Padilla
>> treatment.  6 of the 8 were executed, including the
>> U.S. citizen.
>>
>> Similarly, although many are reluctant to admit it,
>> when a bunch of aviators participated in "The Great
>> Escape" from a German POW camp (yes, the movie is
>> based on a real event, and quite accurately), and
>> most wore civilian clothing (or uniforms modified
>> to look like civilian clothing), and many were
>> captured, with 50 executed, IN THIS INCIDENT the
>> Gestapo actually was operating within the Geneva
>> Convention.
>>
>>  
>>
> Then we have become as bad as Joseph Stalin when we ignore our 
> Constitution and the Geneva Convention. These "Enemy Combatants" held in 
> Cuba were denied protection under the Geneva Convention for YEARS !!  

THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO GENEVA CONVENTION PROTECTION.

Fight without a uniform -- and you lose all Geneva Convention 
protections.

> There were their Red Cross visits ? Don't get me started about water 
> boarding either.

None of that matters.
They were caught on battlefields, fighting out of uniform.

The Geneva Convention DOES recognize irregular soldiers and
militia -- you can fight as such as long as you wear some
article of clothing which distinguishes you from the civilian
populace, and still qualify for GC protection.

> 
> We committed various war crimes in W.W.II as well. The fire bombing of 
> the German civilian population was intentional and criminal.

I completely agree with that assessment.

 > So were the
> to atomic bombs vaporizing civilians in Japan, putting US citizens in 
> prison w/o trial because they had Japanese heritage...  There are more 
> examples I am sure.

Blame Truman and FDR.

> 
> Part of the responsibility of being the only current super power is 
> sticking to the rule of law. We have not been in this war - FISA is 
> another good example. Safety is of no value when you trample the very 
> liberty from tyranny you are combating. The end does not justify the 
> means any more for them than it does for us.

FISA is a Cold War law, designed with the Cold War's "gentleman's
rules" of espionage.

The current wiretapping debate has been grossly mischaracterized.

The ONLY calls which can be monitored are those originating
from overseas...

And EVERY country on the planet has always reserved the right
to monitor ALL communications passing over the borders -- the
lone exception being diplomatic communications (which is the
origin of the "diplomatic pouch"... customs and police are
specifically prohibited from searching a diplomatic pouch.

All other communication which crosses the borders is, and
always has been, subject to monitoring.

> 
> -dave
> 
> PS - Stalin literally worked countless former German POW's to death 
> after the war. I saw some of the fruits of their forced labor in my 
> wife's home town in Ukraine.....  we went on a short trip outside of 
> town. The road was the best road I have seen there, but was in the 
> middle of nowhere and went to a small group of "summer residences". I 
> asked about this road and the laughing response was "It is the Nazi 
> road. It has 4m deep foundation rather than normal 1.2m. It was made 
> after the war by the German POW's"

The USSR was not a GC signatory power during WW2.
The Germans were very upset that the Red Army didn't observe
proper GC protections for captured German soldiers....completely
overlooking their own gross GC violations with respect to civilians.

War is very messy.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 22 23:04:56 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:04:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47BF9B68.6070906@hotpop.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
> Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier to
 > decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data by
 > brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
 >
> I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The
 > inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a
 > statement  was made that they recovered the laptop and the
 > encryption was not broken.  I think that once the bad guys
 > have a laptop they can make a copy of the data and then they
 > can allow the laptop to be returned.  They can take their
 > time cracking the data.
> 

Correct.

As a communications soldier, I am educated on the impact of
cryptography on communications.

For military systems I've used, or otherwise trained with or
been trained on, the stronger the cryptographic protection,
the more cumbersome it is to use.

Therefore, for practical reasons, (time, weight, etc), the
goal is always to choose the LEAST cryptographic protection
needed for a message -- the reason is best explained in the
following scenario

Suppose I want to arrange a meeting (say, for the transfer
of supplies or food or something).

In the mid-1980's, there were several choices to choose from:

1) a simple, but clever encryption system which could be used
for encrypting primarily times and map-coordinates.
Academic cryptographic literature would refer to this as a
cipher due to the 1-to-1 relationship between the number of
plain-text characters, and the number of encrypted characters.
The entire encrypt/decrypt system fits on a 3" x 4" piece
of paper.
{now made obsolete by a system called "SINCGARS")

2) A true code system, consisting of 3-letter groups,
each of which would represent a words, prefix, suffix,
a common syllable, a letter, a number, or a group of
numerals (such as "000").  Encryption by this method
can be done "in the field", but requires a very tedious
process of looking up each substitution in a book
(about 3" x 5").  Encrypting a 15-word message could
easily take 30 minutes or longer, and decrypting with
the book takes about the same amount of time.
(now made obsolete by SINCGARS)

3) Using a RATT (RAdio TeleType) network.  This
generally required a "RATT-rig" ... a metal container
carried on the back of a truck, which would hold all
of the encryption-decryption electronics, plus the
associated teletype and message-storage equipment.
(for example, messages could be prepared on a
magnetic tape, or even a punch tape... and then
held for transmission at a later time.  If someone
knew that they would send one of two messages, depending
on some event, both of those messages could be prepared
ahead of time, and then the applicable one transmitted
once the decision of which to send had been made).
Advantage -- large messages can be encrypted and
decrypted very quickly, using complex algorithms,
but due to both the expense and bulk of the equipment,
typically available only at Brigade level or higher.
I.e. Battalions and companies typically don't have
this equipment)

By the mide 1990's, another option became available:

So...back to our scenario...to arrange (or order) this
meeting, which system do you choose?

If this is at a brigade/division/corps/army level,
the obvious choice is the RATT rig.
But if it is a battalion or company level thing,
which do you choose?

Well, that depends on the situation.
A: If the meeting is to occur only a few hours from
now, and the overall message doesn't contain any
reference to what will occur at the meeting, (the
message might say, "for a FOXTROT meeting" (with
the meaning of FOXTROT previously established) or
any other clues about location other than the
grid reference, what would you choose?

B: If the meeting is to occur 6 days from now, and
the person sending the message also says to bring
a number of vehicles for hauling whatever stuff...
which would you choose?

In case A, the simple 3"x4" cipher card would be
most appropriate.

In case B, the 3-letter code-groups would be most
appropriate.

Why?
The major reason is the element of time.

One assumption in military communications is that ALL
your messages are received, RECORDED and even archived
by the opposing forces, and that each message will have
a competent team of cryptographers working on it (because
you never know WHICH message the enemies cryptographers
will actually choose to attack by analysis)

So...since the cipher system on the 3"x4" paper was
estimated to protect a message for 48 hours (once
enough messages were intercepted and recorded, the
entire body of message traffic could be subjected
to meta-analysis).  So, in scenario A, the 3"x4", if
the message is otherwise indirect enough, simply
encrypting the time and location with this cipher
could be "good enough" because by the time the opposing
forces crack your message, your meeting is an event
that already ended at least 24 hours ago.

On the other hand, for scenario B, this is not strong
enough encryption... the opposing forces could crack
the message and still have 48+ hours to react (by
deploying forces to the meeting site. for example,
or conducting ambushes on the roads surrounding
the meeting site, and destroying/capturing both
men and equipment or supplies)..so, because of this,
the code-book with the 3-letter codes is the bare
minimum.  If the meeting was, say, TOP SECRET, but
the 3-letter code book was only rated for SECRET,
then the 3-letter code book could not be used, and
some other method of delivering the message would
have to be used -- such as hand delivery, use of
a "one time pad" message, etc.

So how does this matter for computers?

If your encrypted data were copied, (the equivalent
of the military scenario of interception and recording),
how far into the future would that information still
be damaging if it were revealed only to those who have
the ability and desire (and nobody else) to use that
information in a way which would adversely effect you?

For example... if most of the information you encrypt
is only of usefulness for a few weeks, then gonig to
the trouble of using an encryption method which would
take 10+ years to crack is probably not good.

Why?

Because you probably have OTHER data which even 10 years
from now, you STILL want to be protected.  By encrypting
your "damaging for a week" data with the same system as
your "damaging for a decade" data... you give an attacker
a larger amount of data to work with for meta-analysis
which ultimately lessens the amount of time needed to
attack any individual encrypted item.

By using different systems, depending on how LONG it
needs to be protected... the large mass of short-term
sensitive messages are no longer useful for decrypting
the long-term sensitive data, because they are using
completely different systems.

In terms of something like PGP..a variation on this
could mean using one key for short-term sensitive data,
another for "medium-term" sensitive data, a 3rd key
for long-term sensitive data" and a 4th key for data
so sensitive that you don't want it to be revealed at
any time while you are still alive...and possibly even
a 5th for data which you hope to keep secret even from
members of your grandchildren's generation. (say two
generations after you die)







4) In the mid 1990's, a computer-based system.  Using a
small computer (from a technological standpoint, it
appeared to be a miniaturized Commodore 64 with a
small built-in LCD screen), a message could be typed
in.  The computer had both telephone line jacks and
also a two-piece acoustic modem (the two halves of
which could be temporarily attached, using velcro
straps, to the handset of a typical voice radio), as
well as a parallel port for attaching a printer, and
also a serial port.).  Plastic chassis, appropriate
for use only in a company headquarters or higher.
Perhaps a ruggedized version was produced (more weight,
of course) but I never saw one.



> 
> -- "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/022108-disk-encryption-cracked.html?page=1
>>
>>  Network World article pointing out that who controls the physical
>>  computer, controls the data in it.  There is a method to crack disk
>>  encryption.  It ain't easy, and you would have to have it ready, but it
>>  is possible.
> 
> The security implications of loading the decryption keys into DRAM is
> something I though of myself a while ago.  I hadn't realized that the
> data retention was that long without power or that cooling them could
> increase the data lifetime.  My theory was that it would be possible
> to read the memory bus while the system was active and pick up the
> keys that way.  According to the report you can chill the DRAM and
> just put it in another system for reading which makes encryption about
> as useful as a chastity belt.  I disagree with Steven Sprague about
> the effectiveness of hardware-based encryption devices as they also
> have to load the key making them just as vulnerable.  The only
> advantage they offer is a more complicated architecture that would
> have to be reverse engineered first so that an attacker would know
> where to look before attempting to find the key (obfuscation).  I was
> thinking that storing the key in a CPU register would be better as the
> complexity and small feature size would make it a lot harder to
> extract.  OpenBSD, IIRC, randomizes memory locations so theoretically
> it would be more difficult to find a key (again obfuscation).  I think
> the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
> before halting or suspending.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> Click for free info on using seach engines to expand your business.
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifVr4L6N73yOzTImEQJlllblPjibWxajC7Lp2ebNLBWDxzFq/
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 23 00:49:38 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:49:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net>
	<47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com>
	<47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47BFB3F2.2040403@comcast.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> I think
> the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
> before halting or suspending.
>   

And still, if the black hat has the physical computer, you're screwed. 
Basically any hard drive that is lost from your protection should be
considered compromised and the data open even if it is protected.  No
security is perfect and if the bad guy has ownership of the machine,
they can own the data, it is merely a matter of time and interest.

Most people that steal laptops are not data thieves.  They want the
machine to use or sell.  They will not have the tools to break the
security.  They just want the password or to wipe the password.

Frankly any computer I ever get rid of will have the hard drives wiped
and if the data is sensitive enough (I have nothing in that category) I
will physically destroy the drive.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 23 00:52:27 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:52:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption - once copied its vunerable
In-Reply-To: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080222.135258.26930.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47BFB49B.8010301@comcast.net>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>  
> Okay, I understand that having the key makes it a lot easier to decrypt the data. But isn't it possible to decrypt the data by brute force too?   So, encryption is not completely safe, right?
> I was watching the new Knight Rider (talking car) on TV. The inventor's laptop was stolen by the bad guys.  But then a statement  was made that they recovered the laptop and the encryption was not broken.  I think that once the bad guys have a laptop they can make a copy of the data and then they can allow the laptop to be returned.  They can take their time cracking the data.

Sure tools right here to make a bit by bit clone of a hard drive.  If
they get physical control, you are boned.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb 23 01:02:53 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:02:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>
	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>


>>> <>Then we have become as bad as Joseph Stalin when we ignore our
>>> Constitution and the Geneva Convention. These "Enemy Combatants" 
>>> held in
>>> Cuba were denied protection under the Geneva Convention for YEARS !!
>>
>
>THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO GENEVA CONVENTION PROTECTION.
>
>Fight without a uniform -- and you lose all Geneva Convention 
>protections.
>
>  
>
Well, from their perspective, they ARE in uniform. The Muslin uniform. 
Remember, to _them_ this is a religious war. We are the Super Power that 
history proves will fall. If we don't hold ourselves to a higher 
standard than they do, we will only accelerate our fall.

>>There were their Red Cross visits ? Don't get me started about water 
>>boarding either.
>>    
>>
>
>None of that matters.
>They were caught on battlefields, fighting out of uniform.
>
>The Geneva Convention DOES recognize irregular soldiers and
>militia -- you can fight as such as long as you wear some
>article of clothing which distinguishes you from the civilian
>populace, and still qualify for GC protection.
>
>  
>
They did not sign it either. Nor did USSR - so how could be condemn them 
for their treatment of the Afghan Mohsedeem ?  We are complete 
hypocrites on this page in history

>>to atomic bombs vaporizing civilians in Japan, putting US citizens in 
>>prison w/o trial because they had Japanese heritage...  There are more 
>>examples I am sure.
>>    
>>
>
>Blame Truman and FDR.
>
>  
>
NO !!!!!   BLAME OUR FELLOW AMERICANS FOR STANDING FOR IT !!!! Just as 
some Americans are standing for torture in Cuba now.... And ignoring of 
FISA and granting the Big Telco's immunity for violation of FISA...

>>Part of the responsibility of being the only current super power is 
>>sticking to the rule of law. We have not been in this war - FISA is 
>>another good example. Safety is of no value when you trample the very 
>>liberty from tyranny you are combating. The end does not justify the 
>>means any more for them than it does for us.
>>    
>>
>
>FISA is a Cold War law, designed with the Cold War's "gentleman's
>rules" of espionage.
>
>The current wiretapping debate has been grossly mischaracterized.
>
>The ONLY calls which can be monitored are those originating
>from overseas...
>
>And EVERY country on the planet has always reserved the right
>to monitor ALL communications passing over the borders -- the
>lone exception being diplomatic communications (which is the
>origin of the "diplomatic pouch"... customs and police are
>specifically prohibited from searching a diplomatic pouch.
>
>All other communication which crosses the borders is, and
>always has been, subject to monitoring.
>
>  
>
I guess to some the Rule of Law, and not the rule of what the President 
dictates to be the law, is all that counts. I am sorry if the current 
laws are not convenient to the Executive branch, but tell me, when did 
the FISA court ever - EVER - block a wire tap ? :-)  Never. Even post 
Morton as the law allows for. Never.

This is the type of reasoning that allowed Hitler his ultimate control. 
He did not get it over night. He got it piece by piece. The Executive 
branch did not get all this power since 9-11, it has been a building 
process. Right now, it is past the line in the Constitution.

Cold war or not, Law is Law.

-dave


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Feb 23 01:50:48 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 01:50:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Disk encryption
In-Reply-To: <47BFB3F2.2040403@comcast.net>
References: <47AD032F.8050200@ameritech.net> <47BC74C2.9080103@comcast.net>
	<47BC9561.3030803@ameritech.net>
	<200802202045.36919.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
	<47BD1BBD.7090001@hotpop.com> <47BEEFE0.6050607@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90802220938h4af30f4fk8b8f84a440c7ece3@mail.gmail.com>
	<47BFB3F2.2040403@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802222250t4dd4f2danfe047b81efd89cc9@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 12:49 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Jeff Hanson wrote:
>  > I think
>  > the Linux solution is to have the kernel wipe entire memory space
>  > before halting or suspending.
>  >
>
>  And still, if the black hat has the physical computer, you're screwed.
>  Basically any hard drive that is lost from your protection should be
>  considered compromised and the data open even if it is protected.  No
>  security is perfect and if the bad guy has ownership of the machine,
>  they can own the data, it is merely a matter of time and interest.
>
>  Most people that steal laptops are not data thieves.  They want the
>  machine to use or sell.  They will not have the tools to break the
>  security.  They just want the password or to wipe the password.
>
>  Frankly any computer I ever get rid of will have the hard drives wiped
>  and if the data is sensitive enough (I have nothing in that category) I
>  will physically destroy the drive.

Even with this new DRAM key recovery method the thermite erasure
method still works.

Practically speaking I encrypt server drives also.  If an idiot steals
the system they're probably not going to care about unplugging the
power and thus losing access to decrypted data.  I'd rather not have
an unencrypted server drive sitting in a pawn shop somewhere.


From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Feb 23 07:34:34 2008
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:34:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] DNS registration Info (is there a free service if you
	have a static IP address)
In-Reply-To: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <255244.42580.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200802230734.35936.davidl@lmert.com>

On Saturday 09 February 2008 14:33, David Lane wrote:
> I just set up a static IP address.  I want to Map that to a ".COM"
>
> register.com has a fee, if that is what I have to do BUT I hope that that
> is not the case.

Here's a free service if you can live with "david-lane.homelinux.com", 
not "david-lane.com":

	http://www.dyndns.com/services/dns/dyndns/domains.html

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 23 14:33:24 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 14:33:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>
	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:

<snip>

> 
>>> to atomic bombs vaporizing civilians in Japan, putting US citizens in 
>>> prison w/o trial because they had Japanese heritage...  There are more 
>>> examples I am sure.
>>>    
>>>
>> Blame Truman and FDR.
>>
>>  
>>
> NO !!!!!   BLAME OUR FELLOW AMERICANS FOR STANDING FOR IT !!!! Just as 
> some Americans are standing for torture in Cuba now.... And ignoring of 
> FISA and granting the Big Telco's immunity for violation of FISA...
> 
>>> Part of the responsibility of being the only current super power is 
>>> sticking to the rule of law. We have not been in this war - FISA is 
>>> another good example. Safety is of no value when you trample the very 
>>> liberty from tyranny you are combating. The end does not justify the 
>>> means any more for them than it does for us.
>>>    
>>>
>> FISA is a Cold War law, designed with the Cold War's "gentleman's
>> rules" of espionage.
>>
>> The current wiretapping debate has been grossly mischaracterized.
>>
>> The ONLY calls which can be monitored are those originating
>>from overseas...
>> And EVERY country on the planet has always reserved the right
>> to monitor ALL communications passing over the borders -- the
>> lone exception being diplomatic communications (which is the
>> origin of the "diplomatic pouch"... customs and police are
>> specifically prohibited from searching a diplomatic pouch.
>>
>> All other communication which crosses the borders is, and
>> always has been, subject to monitoring.
>>
>>  
>>
> I guess to some the Rule of Law, and not the rule of what the President 
> dictates to be the law, is all that counts. I am sorry if the current 
> laws are not convenient to the Executive branch, but tell me, when did 
> the FISA court ever - EVER - block a wire tap ? :-)  Never. Even post 
> Morton as the law allows for. Never.
> 
> This is the type of reasoning that allowed Hitler his ultimate control. 
> He did not get it over night. He got it piece by piece. The Executive 
> branch did not get all this power since 9-11, it has been a building 
> process. Right now, it is past the line in the Constitution.
> 
> Cold war or not, Law is Law.

Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.

FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
States to another location within the United States), and is
a necessary

The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
communications between a party within their borders and
another party outside of their borders.

In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
actually from one foreign location to another foreign
location, which just happen to be routed through the
U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
before allowing them to be brought into the country.

In the case of an international wiretap, they're not
even preventing the communication, they are merely
monitoring the cross-border communications.

All of these complaints are just more of the same,
tiresome Bush derangement syndrome by the same sorts
of people who didn't bat an eyelash over the Clinton
administration's Carnivore program -- which DID
specifically target domestic communications between
U.S. citizens, because they viewed the biggest terrorist
threat to the nation to be its own citizens (even while
foreign terrorists were attacking us around the world),
because the White House actually WAS at war with the
American people (Waco, "scary-looking"-guns act) and
siding with the crazies (SWAT team assault on refugee
Elian Gonzalez, so that they could return him to the
island-prison of Cuba... siding with the mass-murdering
gangs of Kosovo after they started to carry out a war
of arson and genocide against the Serbs (think of a
never-ending Kristallnacht accompanied by Dachau all
rolled into one, but without the German fetish for
marching and paperwork).  Those mass graves were
NOT created by Serbian forces...they were full of
Serbian bodies.  The eastern European press was reporting
this as early as 1997, but the American press didn't
get it right until 2007.

At the time that the Air Force was ordered to bomb
Belgrade and Novii Sad, these cities were already
overflowing with refugees who had literally fled their
homes with nothing more than the clothes on their back,
as their homes, businesses, and whatever vehicles they
might have owned were all destroyed (usually through
arson) by their warm, loving, peaceful Muslim neighbors.
The man blamed for all of this is Slobodan Milosovich,
who, contrary to the way the White House portrayed him
as some sort of war-monger, was unusually RESTRAINED.
Liberty magazine had a writer in Poland, who reported
that every day, tens of thousands marched in the streets
of Belgrade urging Milosovich to send the Serbian Army
into the Kosovo region province to protect the Serb
population living there.  This went on for months.
[If one ethnic group in the U.S. were forcibly expelling
another ethnic group from their locality, by means of
burning down neighborhoods and killing all of the adult
males, how many hours would pass before U.S. Army troops
were sent in to put down civil unrest?  I can't imagine
it being more than 96 hours.  Milosovich, the "warmonger"
resisted public demands to defend citizens against an
internal rebellion for far more than 96 DAYS...and yet,
to the Clinton Administration and his buddies, the
European elites, Milosovich was the bad guy in all
of this.  (And for perpetuating the policy of viewing

Why?  Because the Serbs are Orthodox Christian, and
therefore a satisfactory scapegoat for the Clintons,
while the Kosovo populace is Muslim, and therefore
beyond reproach.  Radical Muslim gangs in Kosovo were
practicing the usual "convert-or-die" expansionism
which triggered to the Spanish Inquisition, often
wrongfully typified as a pogram against Jews when
it was in fact an act of defending against Islamic
expansionism by adopting the same policy against
the death-cult.

Sadly, some Jews were caught up in whole affair, but
the Inquisition wasn't about them, it was about the
expansion of Mohammad's death-cult.

Followup sent to the offtopic list.




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb 23 15:15:31 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:15:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

> This is the type of reasoning that allowed Hitler his ultimate control.
>
>>He did not get it over night. He got it piece by piece. The Executive 
>>branch did not get all this power since 9-11, it has been a building 
>>process. Right now, it is past the line in the Constitution.
>>
>>Cold war or not, Law is Law.
>>    
>>
>
>Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.
>
>FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
>States to another location within the United States), and is
>a necessary
>
>The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
>external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
>always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
>communications between a party within their borders and
>another party outside of their borders.
>
>In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
>actually from one foreign location to another foreign
>location, which just happen to be routed through the
>U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
>clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
>country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
>be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
>any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
>before allowing them to be brought into the country.
>
>  
>
Err, it sounds like politics are influencing your reasoning. I don't 
care if it is Bush or Clinton or Mickey Mouse in the White House, please 
look at the law...  The fact that wire taps with an American at one end 
and no FISA or any other court order is the problem. The Law does not 
say both parties must be American. Where did you ever get that idea ? If 
both parties are foreign and the communication crosses US equipment, all 
the more power to who ever wants to intercept it :-)  What I am talking 
about is not following the Constitution because "The law was outdated".  
So, if the original Law has no language about spying on Americans. then 
simply the Forth Amendment is sufficient - a court order is required. 
Period.

 From Cornell - 
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html

Notice under 1802 (b) that an American CAN NOT BE A PARTY TO THE WIRETAP 
!!!!  And this is the updated law, which the Exceuttive Branch still 
would have violated post 9-11.

Title 50, Chapter 36, subchapter 1,  ? 1801.
(f) "Electronic surveillance" means--
(1) the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance 
device of the contents of any wire or radio communication sent by or 
intended to be received by a particular, known United States person who 
is in the United States, if the contents are acquired by intentionally 
targeting that United States person, under circumstances in which a 
person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would be 
required for law enforcement purposes;
(2) the acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other surveillance 
device of the contents of any wire communication to or from a person in 
the United States, without the consent of any party thereto, if such 
acquisition occurs in the United States, but does not include the 
acquisition of those communications of computer trespassers that would 
be permissible under section 2511 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002511----000-.html> 
(2)(i) 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002511----000-.html#2_i> 
of title 18 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18.html>;
(3) the intentional acquisition by an electronic, mechanical, or other 
surveillance device of the contents of any radio communication, under 
circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy 
and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes, and if 
both the sender and all intended recipients are located within the 
United States; or
(4) the installation or use of an electronic, mechanical, or other 
surveillance device in the United States for monitoring to acquire 
information, other than from a wire or radio communication, under 
circumstances in which a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy 
and a warrant would be required for law enforcement purposes.


    ? 1802. Electronic surveillance authorization without court order;
    certification by Attorney General; reports to Congressional
    committees; transmittal under seal; duties and compensation of
    communication common carrier; applications; jurisdiction of court

How Current is This? 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/HowCurrent.php/?tn=50&fragid=T50F00510&extid=usc_sec_50_00001802----000-&sourcedate=2007-12-26&proctime=Thu%20Dec%2027%2004:39:41%202007> 

(a)
(1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney 
General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order 
under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for 
periods of up to one year if the Attorney General certifies in writing 
under oath that--
(A) the electronic surveillance is solely directed at--
(i) the acquisition of the contents of communications transmitted by 
means of communications used exclusively between or among foreign 
powers, as defined in section 1801 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html> 
(a)(1) 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html#a_1>, 
(2), or (3) of this title; or
(ii) the acquisition of technical intelligence, other than the spoken 
communications of individuals, from property or premises under the open 
and exclusive control of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html> 
(a)(1) 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html#a_1>, 
(2), or (3) of this title;
(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will 
acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States 
person is a party; and
(C) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such 
surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under 
section 1801 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html> 
(h) 
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001801----000-.html#h> 
of this title; and
if the Attorney General reports such minimization procedures and any 
changes thereto to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence 
and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence at least thirty days 
prior to their effective date, unless the Attorney General determines 
immediate action is required and notifies the committees immediately of 
such minimization procedures and the reason for their becoming effective 
immediately.



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 23 15:52:35 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:52:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>
	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
>> This is the type of reasoning that allowed Hitler his ultimate control.
>>
>>> He did not get it over night. He got it piece by piece. The Executive 
>>> branch did not get all this power since 9-11, it has been a building 
>>> process. Right now, it is past the line in the Constitution.
>>>
>>> Cold war or not, Law is Law.
>>>    
>>>
>> Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.
>>
>> FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
>> States to another location within the United States), and is
>> a necessary
>>
>> The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
>> external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
>> always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
>> communications between a party within their borders and
>> another party outside of their borders.
>>
>> In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
>> actually from one foreign location to another foreign
>> location, which just happen to be routed through the
>> U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
>> clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
>> country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
>> be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
>> any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
>> before allowing them to be brought into the country.
>>
>>  
>>
> Err, it sounds like politics are influencing your reasoning. I don't 
> care if it is Bush or Clinton or Mickey Mouse in the White House, please 
> look at the law...  The fact that wire taps with an American at one end 
> and no FISA or any other court order is the problem. The Law does not 
> say both parties must be American. Where did you ever get that idea ? If 
> both parties are foreign and the communication crosses US equipment, all 
> the more power to who ever wants to intercept it :-)  What I am talking 
> about is not following the Constitution because "The law was outdated".  

yes, the FISA law is outdated.

Monitoring FOREIGN COMMUNICATION is not unconstitutional, and never
will be.

> So, if the original Law has no language about spying on Americans. then 

Nobody is "SPYING ON AMERICANS"

The U.S government reserves the right to intercept foreign
communications.

> simply the Forth Amendment is sufficient - a court order is required.

The fourth amendment says "no UNREASONABLE" searches or seizures.

Monitoring foreign communication is not "unreasonable" -- no court
in ANY nation of the world has ever held it to be so.


The more the left protests about this sort of thing, the more
it makes believe that what they're REALLY worried about is
that it's going to lead to the revelation of how much of their
own domestic actions are coordinated with foreign organizations
who have absolutely no respect for the ideals of the U.S.
Constitution.

That's what this hysteria is really about -- that so many on
the left are, in their hearts...treasonous.

It's one thing to protect your rights.

It's quite another to use those rights in a quest to overthrow
the very system which guarantees your rights.  Leftist ideology
is completely at odds with the very notion of individual rights --
and yet it is only the left which is complaining about supposed
infringements on their individual rights.

Since that completely defies logic, the only conclusion one can
make is that the left is worried about something else..something
which is so damaging, that they cannot openly protest to protect
it, therefore, they are trying to use this bogus canard as a
stalking horse.


> Period.

Really.

Ever heard of the Zimmerman Telegram?

Did the British act wrongfully?




From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Feb 23 17:27:55 2008
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:27:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] T61 Thinkpad Recovery Partition
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380802101510r34c155e4ub2bdf15028411676@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1202674744.4099.26.camel@plumber.site>
	<47AF61BA.7030408@arb.net> <20080210162607.4ff3a5b0@Nokia-N800-26>
	<1202680081.4099.32.camel@plumber.site>
	<b67fb0380802101510r34c155e4ub2bdf15028411676@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1203805675.4099.202.camel@plumber.site>


On Sun, 2008-02-10 at 18:10 -0500, Michael Rudas wrote:
> --- Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> > >       The expert option still has the same results, missing 7GB.
> > > Same with any other OS.  I'm trying  to use fdisk to partition it now.
> >         Okay, I partitioned it with fdisk, using all available sectors. ie the
> > last partition; /home or sda9 used up whatever was left. With fdisk v I
> > found out there are still 5475 unallocated sectors. 12'161 were
> > allocated to partitions sda1-9. The install still only reports 93GB
> > available. Am I on the right track with GRUB?
> 
> Have you tried blowing away the boot sector?  I use MBRWiz:
> <http://www.mbrwizard.com> -- it can be used with a DOS boot-disk or
> Linux.

	Okay, I'm not really sure how I did it but something happened. I was
not able to get a working DOS/Win boot disk to get MBRWiz working. I
found a bootable iso called "supergrubdisk" which promised to unhide any
hidden partitions. I'm not really sure it did that but I do think what
it did was to properly flag/label the partitions. Story of my life. All
of a sudden I'm booting off the hard disk into my last failed install. I
did also find a Parted Magic live cd that among other things had GParted
on it. With that I partitioned the disk according to what I wanted.
(/, /boot, /usr, swap, /var, /tmp, /opt and /home). So with the two of
them reformated and checked my hard disk, which according to fdisk still
has 5475 unallocated sectors. I do think Ray was right as well because
gparted reports 100GB/93.16GIB. It is now working, I must sort out the
vagaries of suspend and transfer most of my home directory and my dot
files. Sadly I don't know exactly what I did, but it started working
after I ran the supergrubdisk.
	Thank you all for your help and advice.

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Feb 23 18:36:54 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 18:36:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] RMS steps down as GNU Emacs maintainer
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802231832080.5045@banana.sluggo.net>

It's the end of an era:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-02/msg02140.html

As an avid Emacs user, all I can say is that I am grateful that
Richard Stallman wrote such a fantastic piece of free software.

/me bows down to his RMS statue

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Feb 23 13:48:32 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 13:48:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>
	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C06A80.5000305@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>>> <>Then we have become as bad as Joseph Stalin when we ignore our
>>>> Constitution and the Geneva Convention. These "Enemy Combatants" 
>>>> held in
>>>> Cuba were denied protection under the Geneva Convention for YEARS !!
>> THEY ARE NOT ENTITLED TO GENEVA CONVENTION PROTECTION.
>>
>> Fight without a uniform -- and you lose all Geneva Convention 
>> protections.
>>
>>  
>>
> Well, from their perspective, they ARE in uniform. The Muslin uniform. 
> Remember, to _them_ this is a religious war. We are the Super Power that 
> history proves will fall. If we don't hold ourselves to a higher 
> standard than they do, we will only accelerate our fall.

True. In any event, since they choose to fight outside the
rules of the Geneva Conventions, the have also chosen to
sacrifice the protections of the Geneva Conventions if they
happen to be captured.




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sat Feb 23 23:08:11 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:08:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>
	<47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>


>>>Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.
>>>
>>>FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
>>>States to another location within the United States), and is
>>>a necessary
>>>
>>>The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
>>>external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
>>>always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
>>>communications between a party within their borders and
>>>another party outside of their borders.
>>>
>>>In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
>>>actually from one foreign location to another foreign
>>>location, which just happen to be routed through the
>>>U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
>>>clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
>>>country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
>>>be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
>>>any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
>>>before allowing them to be brought into the country.
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Err, it sounds like politics are influencing your reasoning. I don't 
>>care if it is Bush or Clinton or Mickey Mouse in the White House, please 
>>look at the law...  The fact that wire taps with an American at one end 
>>and no FISA or any other court order is the problem. The Law does not 
>>say both parties must be American. Where did you ever get that idea ? If 
>>both parties are foreign and the communication crosses US equipment, all 
>>the more power to who ever wants to intercept it :-)  What I am talking 
>>about is not following the Constitution because "The law was outdated".  
>>    
>>
>
>yes, the FISA law is outdated.
>
>Monitoring FOREIGN COMMUNICATION is not unconstitutional, and never
>will be.
>
>  
>
>>So, if the original Law has no language about spying on Americans. then 
>>    
>>
>
>Nobody is "SPYING ON AMERICANS"
>
>The U.S government reserves the right to intercept foreign
>communications.
>
>  
>
>>simply the Forth Amendment is sufficient - a court order is required.
>>    
>>
>
>The fourth amendment says "no UNREASONABLE" searches or seizures.
>
>Monitoring foreign communication is not "unreasonable" -- no court
>in ANY nation of the world has ever held it to be so.
>
>
>The more the left protests about this sort of thing, the more
>it makes believe that what they're REALLY worried about is
>that it's going to lead to the revelation of how much of their
>own domestic actions are coordinated with foreign organizations
>who have absolutely no respect for the ideals of the U.S.
>Constitution.
>
>That's what this hysteria is really about -- that so many on
>the left are, in their hearts...treasonous.
>
>It's one thing to protect your rights.
>
>It's quite another to use those rights in a quest to overthrow
>the very system which guarantees your rights.  Leftist ideology
>is completely at odds with the very notion of individual rights --
>and yet it is only the left which is complaining about supposed
>infringements on their individual rights.
>
>Since that completely defies logic, the only conclusion one can
>make is that the left is worried about something else..something
>which is so damaging, that they cannot openly protest to protect
>it, therefore, they are trying to use this bogus canard as a
>stalking horse.
>  
>
Wow. I was in shock to read this. Really. As a right wing conservative 
who voted for G.W. both times, I could not disagree more with this 
reasoning. If I had known G.W. was going to trash the Constitution, 
separation of powers, etc., I would have voted for anyone else the 
second time. I understand the reasons for Basic Training conditioning 
the minds of our brave solders, I just did not think it has gone beyond 
upholding the Constitution, even if the threat is domestic and at the 
top of the chain of command. Those I know in the Far Right (read 
Michigan Militia) are more concerned than I am that our civil rights are 
less important than attempting to protect us from terrorists. Slippery 
slope is trading freedom for perceived safety. Our founding Fathers 
understood this.

So did George Orwell. 1984 is a good example.

"With Liberty and Justice for all."

That is all I have to say.

-dave


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 10:44:52 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:44:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>

The IR jamming topic was fascinating - the discussion of how it might
be implemented and what effects it has on consumer gadgets was very
interesting.  It has since turned into a political discussion.  Since
the subject quite clearly says the topic is OT, I can't simply ask you
guys to take the discussion elsewhere.

This got me thinking, and that got me searching. Are there any clients
and/or plugins that allow ignoring sub-threads?  Not the whole thread,
just a certain root message and all threads below that root message.
My searching got no where, and I'm not in inclined to write a new
client and/or plugin that supports this idea.

Does anyone know of or use a client and/or plugin that supports this
idea?  I imagine it would see some decent use in mailing lists
everywhere.

I welcome your thoughts,
Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sun Feb 24 11:03:49 2008
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 11:03:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47C19565.60204@ameritech.net>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> The IR jamming topic was fascinating - the discussion of how it might
> be implemented and what effects it has on consumer gadgets was very
> interesting.  It has since turned into a political discussion.  Since
> the subject quite clearly says the topic is OT, I can't simply ask you
> guys to take the discussion elsewhere.

Actually you can. MDLUG provides a convenient "elsewhere" called the
mdlug-discuss list. This is where OT discussions properly belong. If you
have any concerns about ruffling feathers with your "take it elsewhere"
request feel free to drop a line to the list moderator
mailto:listmod at mdlug.org. Garry is on line most of the time, and steps
in on occasion, as needed.

I was tempted to speak up about that thread myself, but it kept veering
back into the telecom aspect which is arguably a legitimate topic for
discussion.


> This got me thinking, and that got me searching. Are there any clients
> and/or plugins that allow ignoring sub-threads?  Not the whole thread,
> just a certain root message and all threads below that root message.
> My searching got no where, and I'm not in inclined to write a new
> client and/or plugin that supports this idea.

I don't know of any such client, and I don't know that I would trust the
heuristics. Personally I already look at my spam's sender/subject info
as I delete it from thunderbird's junk folder.

Thunderbird can display message threads to show which messages decend
from which branch. It might make most sense to just keep one "do not
read" message flagged in your inbox and manually delete all follow ups
to it.

> Does anyone know of or use a client and/or plugin that supports this
> idea?  I imagine it would see some decent use in mailing lists
> everywhere.
> 
> I welcome your thoughts,
> Clinton
> 



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 24 15:43:55 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:43:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>	<47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>
	<47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C1D70B.7030101@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
>>>> Yes, we are a nations of laws, and the law is the law.
>>>>
>>>> FISA is for DOMESTIC wiretaps (calls placed within the United
>>>> States to another location within the United States), and is
>>>> a necessary
>>>>
>>>> The current wiretapping in question are calls placed from
>>>> external locations.  As I said before, ALL countries have
>>>> always reserved the right to monitor and even disrupt
>>>> communications between a party within their borders and
>>>> another party outside of their borders.
>>>>
>>>> In addition, a lot of the calls being monitored are
>>>> actually from one foreign location to another foreign
>>>> location, which just happen to be routed through the
>>>> U.S.  This is allowed under the "search and seizure"
>>>> clause of the 4th Amendment -- because sovereign
>>>> country (including the U.S.) has ever considered it to
>>>> be an "unreasonable search" if Customs officers review
>>>> any books, papers, recordings, or other communications
>>>> before allowing them to be brought into the country.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>> Err, it sounds like politics are influencing your reasoning. I don't 
>>> care if it is Bush or Clinton or Mickey Mouse in the White House, please 
>>> look at the law...  The fact that wire taps with an American at one end 
>>> and no FISA or any other court order is the problem. The Law does not 
>>> say both parties must be American. Where did you ever get that idea ? If 
>>> both parties are foreign and the communication crosses US equipment, all 
>>> the more power to who ever wants to intercept it :-)  What I am talking 
>>> about is not following the Constitution because "The law was outdated".  
>>>    
>>>
>> yes, the FISA law is outdated.
>>
>> Monitoring FOREIGN COMMUNICATION is not unconstitutional, and never
>> will be.
>>
>>  
>>
>>> So, if the original Law has no language about spying on Americans. then 
>>>    
>>>
>> Nobody is "SPYING ON AMERICANS"
>>
>> The U.S government reserves the right to intercept foreign
>> communications.
>>
>>  
>>
>>> simply the Forth Amendment is sufficient - a court order is required.
>>>    
>>>
>> The fourth amendment says "no UNREASONABLE" searches or seizures.
>>
>> Monitoring foreign communication is not "unreasonable" -- no court
>> in ANY nation of the world has ever held it to be so.
>>
>>
>> The more the left protests about this sort of thing, the more
>> it makes believe that what they're REALLY worried about is
>> that it's going to lead to the revelation of how much of their
>> own domestic actions are coordinated with foreign organizations
>> who have absolutely no respect for the ideals of the U.S.
>> Constitution.
>>
>> That's what this hysteria is really about -- that so many on
>> the left are, in their hearts...treasonous.
>>
>> It's one thing to protect your rights.
>>
>> It's quite another to use those rights in a quest to overthrow
>> the very system which guarantees your rights.  Leftist ideology
>> is completely at odds with the very notion of individual rights --
>> and yet it is only the left which is complaining about supposed
>> infringements on their individual rights.
>>
>> Since that completely defies logic, the only conclusion one can
>> make is that the left is worried about something else..something
>> which is so damaging, that they cannot openly protest to protect
>> it, therefore, they are trying to use this bogus canard as a
>> stalking horse.
>>  
>>
> Wow. I was in shock to read this. Really. As a right wing conservative 
> who voted for G.W. both times, I could not disagree more with this 
> reasoning. If I had known G.W. was going to trash the Constitution, 
> separation of powers, etc., I would have voted for anyone else the 
> second time. I understand the reasons for Basic Training conditioning 
> the minds of our brave solders, I just did not think it has gone beyond 
> upholding the Constitution, even if the threat is domestic and at the 
> top of the chain of command. Those I know in the Far Right (read 
> Michigan Militia) are more concerned than I am that our civil rights are 
> less important than attempting to protect us from terrorists. Slippery 
> slope is trading freedom for perceived safety. Our founding Fathers 
> understood this.

I'm a very strict Libertarian who actually reads the Constitution.

The government has certain powers.  Searching all that crosses
the borders (both inbound and outbound) is one of those powers.

Suppose the communication in question were not by telephone because
the technology were not available -- is there *ANY* doubt that
the government would be within its Constitutional Powers to
search any envelope with a return address of any person KNOWN
to be at war with the country?

This has NOTHING to do with the rights of citizens, and
EVERYTHING to do with the Government's first and foremost
responsibility of protecting the citizenry's right to life.
("The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"...
yes, that's in the Declaration of Independance, but the
arguments based on the DoI is accepted by the Supreme Court).

> 
> So did George Orwell. 1984 is a good example.
> 
> "With Liberty and Justice for all."
> 
> That is all I have to say.
> 




From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 19:08:48 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:08:48 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>  This got me thinking, and that got me searching. Are there any clients
>  and/or plugins that allow ignoring sub-threads?  Not the whole thread,
>  just a certain root message and all threads below that root message.
>  My searching got no where, and I'm not in inclined to write a new
>  client and/or plugin that supports this idea.

I use gmail (so do you), and heavily utilize the 'mute' command ->
shortcut == 'm'.  Hit 'm' on your keyboard while reading this thread.
You will notice that gmail mutes the conversation and you will not see
any more emails on this topic :-)

>  Does anyone know of or use a client and/or plugin that supports this
>  idea?  I imagine it would see some decent use in mailing lists
>  everywhere.

There may be a non-webmail way to do this, but I don't know of one...
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 21:59:59 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:59:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Kristian Erik Hermansen
<kristian.hermansen at gmail.com> wrote:
>  I use gmail (so do you), and heavily utilize the 'mute' command ->
>  shortcut == 'm'.  Hit 'm' on your keyboard while reading this thread.
>  You will notice that gmail mutes the conversation and you will not see
>  any more emails on this topic :-)

This causes the whole thread to be ignored, which isn't what I want.
I'm looking to ignore sub-threads, take for example a thread that may
look like this:

Interesting thread
-Interesting reply
--Interesting reply
---somewhat interesting political comparison
----political rant  (ignore this and it's sub-threads)
-----political rant (ignored)
------political rant (ignored)
-Interesting reply
--Interesting reply

If I use mute or any ignore equivalent, the majority of browsers will
cause the whole thread to be ignored.  Raymond made a good point that
ignoring certain sub-threads may cause me to miss some of the good
stuff - that's something I can live with since I chose to ignore that
particular sub-thread.  It isn't much different than ignoring a whole
thread and possibly missing a useful nugget or two.

I'm just looking to personally ignore the thread branches which are of
little value to myself.  This could apply to political discussions,
ethical discussions, or even discussions on the differences between
Suse and Debian.

Ignoring a whole thread is a bad idea.  Let's say a particular thread
with many off-topic discussions is ignored by me, and eventually dies.
 The root of this thread may have been something interesting which
someones, maybe weeks or months later, decides to add their own good
content to the thread.  If I've ignored the whole thread, I'll never
know that person's contribution.  If I can ignore particular
sub-threads which are of little value, then I'm running a smaller
risk.

Yes, I'm being nit-picky on this.  I'm sure there are many others out
there who would agree with these thoughts and opinions, whether
they're on this list or not.

Every one has an opinion, I just might not want to know everyone's opinion.
=)
Clinton


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 22:11:35 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:11:35 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802241911j47a0939bp4e9f5c9d73730755@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>  This causes the whole thread to be ignored, which isn't what I want.
>  I'm looking to ignore sub-threads, take for example a thread that may
>  look like this:
>
>  Interesting thread
>  -Interesting reply
>  --Interesting reply
>  ---somewhat interesting political comparison
>  ----political rant  (ignore this and it's sub-threads)
>  -----political rant (ignored)
>  ------political rant (ignored)
>  -Interesting reply
>  --Interesting reply

I'm sure it could be done, by utilizing the "In Reply To" message id.
GMaill does not seem to have this feature.  Try requesting it.  Of
course, some people may reply in interesting ways, and perhaps
omitting the "In Reply To" message id, which would cause some
issues...

>  If I use mute or any ignore equivalent, the majority of browsers will
>  cause the whole thread to be ignored.  Raymond made a good point that
>  ignoring certain sub-threads may cause me to miss some of the good
>  stuff - that's something I can live with since I chose to ignore that
>  particular sub-thread.  It isn't much different than ignoring a whole
>  thread and possibly missing a useful nugget or two.

It is not a function of the web browser...

>  I'm just looking to personally ignore the thread branches which are of
>  little value to myself.  This could apply to political discussions,
>  ethical discussions, or even discussions on the differences between
>  Suse and Debian.

Sure...

>  Ignoring a whole thread is a bad idea.  Let's say a particular thread
>  with many off-topic discussions is ignored by me, and eventually dies.
>   The root of this thread may have been something interesting which
>  someones, maybe weeks or months later, decides to add their own good
>  content to the thread.  If I've ignored the whole thread, I'll never
>  know that person's contribution.  If I can ignore particular
>  sub-threads which are of little value, then I'm running a smaller
>  risk.

OK.  But I tend to think of it like a spreading bacteria.  Once the
rants start going, I'm not interested any longer and hit that mute
feature :-)  Sure, I may miss something, but the benefit far outweighs
the loss IMHO.  If we had the sub-mute feature, I would use it
perhaps!
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Feb 24 21:41:25 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 21:41:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming
In-Reply-To: <47C2109A.90202@arb.net>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>	<47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>	<47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>
	<47C1D70B.7030101@hotpop.com> <47C2109A.90202@arb.net>
Message-ID: <47C22AD5.7090500@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
>>>>>>           
>>
>> I'm a very strict Libertarian who actually reads the Constitution.
>>
>> The government has certain powers.  Searching all that crosses
>> the borders (both inbound and outbound) is one of those powers.
>>
>> Suppose the communication in question were not by telephone because
>> the technology were not available -- is there *ANY* doubt that
>> the government would be within its Constitutional Powers to
>> search any envelope with a return address of any person KNOWN
>> to be at war with the country?
>>
>> This has NOTHING to do with the rights of citizens, and
>> EVERYTHING to do with the Government's first and foremost
>> responsibility of protecting the citizenry's right to life.
>> ("The right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"...
>> yes, that's in the Declaration of Independance, but the
>> arguments based on the DoI is accepted by the Supreme Court).
>>
>>   
> Hi Aaron. This too really shocks me too. ALL of the people I know in the 
> Militia are also strict Libertarians. I usually vote Libertarian in an 
> election if I don't know any of the candidates. Are you joking about 
> this ? If not, I suppose Ron Paul is the person you would vote for next 
> ? By definition I think he should be on the Libertarian ballot.
> 

I would never joke about an issue so serious.

I spent 6 months in Operation Noble Eagle, working in a Port of
Entry.  Until a person is ADMITTED into the country, the government
recognizes very few rights.  You can be detained without warrant,
or even probably cause.  At a Port of Entry, you have no right to
free speech, nor a right to remain silent.  Nor do you have a right
to an attorney while in a port of entry (If you are charged with a
crime, you will then be turned over to another law enforcement,
at which point you will THEN have a right to an attorney, but not
while in the port of entry).  The only right you do have is a
right to life...provided you don't provoke ICE to shoot you.

As to anything in your possession, or anything coming into or
leaving from the country, it MUST be made available for
inspection by Customs.  This includes ALL communications.
Customs has Constitutional authority to seize objects,
(including communications) -- not merely to reject it, but
to seize it the object is either prohibited from entering
into the United States (which includes any communication for
the purpose of overthrowing the U.S. government, which is a
long term goal of the Islamic terrorists.  If you don't think
it can happen here, look at what is happening in London--
things have progressed to a state in which the Archbishop of
Canterbury was inspired to remark that he thinks that sooner
rather than later, the UK will have to recognize Sharia law
courts which operate entirely outside of the UK legal system.
The UK's political system is slowly but surely being
subverted by a civilian invasion of people who move to
England, but apparently want to pretend that they still
live in Pakistan, egged on by a few organized radicals
who take advantage of the same knee-jerk sympathies of
the "multi-culturalist" nihilists who are just as bad
in the UK as they are here.).


*IF* you depart or arrive from say, any old dock, and visit,
for example, Canada, you are legally required to report the
departure and/or arrival to Immigration, and to report any
and all items which left or entered the country (for these
purposes, any substance or item which you leave and return
with is not considered to be leaving or entering the country.
Same thing goes for anything which a visitor brings with
them, and then takes with them when they depart).

The *ONLY* exception to warrantless search and even seizure
of communications recognized by *ANY* country is the
diplomatic pouch.

Like all national governments, our Federal governments is
a sovereign power.  It retains those powers SO THAT IT MAY
FULFILL ITS OBLIGATIONS.

The Constitution is *NOT* a one-sided suicide pact.
[I.e. it was never intended to be a tool for another
nation or ideology to destroy the very society which
the Constitution protects.]

> Have you heard this short address to Congress about this topic we have 
> been debating ?

No.

But I read the Constitution, and there is NOTHING about the
monitoring of international communications which violates the
Constitution in any way.

The Constitution prohibits UNREASONABLE searches and seizures.

Tapping the telephone call originating from a telephone
number found in the cell phone of a known terrorist does
not constitute in any way an UNREASONABLE search any more
than intercepting enemy communications in written form.

The federal government even has the right to censor the
mail of ITS OWN SOLDIERS who are overseas.

Since the federal government has the legitimate power to
censor (read, and even redact) MY mail when I'm overseas
in a war zone, then it is most illogical to assume that
there is no legitimate authority and power to do the same
to all communications coming originating from people or
addresses (which in this case, would be a telephone
number) known to be associated with the activities of
a movement which is at war with the United States (and
in fact, almost every other government more moderate
than the Taliban).

Follow-ups pointed at mdlug-discuss

> 
> http://factbeat.com/get_story.php?id=245#comm
> 
> -dave





From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 25 00:35:35 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 00:35:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT - IR jamming  [Topic close: moderation]
In-Reply-To: <47C1D70B.7030101@hotpop.com>
References: <47B9F003.3000505@comcast.net>	<54652.136.2.1.101.1203372987.squirrel@www.detroitindustrial.org>	<47BA4FD2.1010608@hotpop.com>	<200802192334.37573.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<47BBBAC4.5080800@hotpop.com>	<20080220133806.3E44C127CF0@starfox.local>	<47BD0E4C.2030606@hotpop.com>	<47BDC080.1080209@arb.net>	<47BDD1B2.2050203@sbcglobal.net>	<47BDED30.3080601@arb.net>	<47BDEF7E.7030707@redhat.com>	<47BDEFB2.9040701@arb.net>	<47BE70AF.4050101@hotpop.com>	<47BF0113.9090400@arb.net>	<47BF78FC.6060802@hotpop.com>	<47BFB70D.1080808@arb.net>	<47C07504.8090603@hotpop.com>	<47C07EE3.4030209@arb.net>	<47C08793.7060006@hotpop.com>	<47C0EDAB.6020808@arb.net>
	<47C1D70B.7030101@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C253A7.8040302@comcast.net>

<Ex Cathedra> The topic has gone overlong and way off topic.  Please
continue you political discussion in private.</Ex Cathedra>

-- 
Garry Stahl -- Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 25 13:16:44 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 13:16:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47BF863E.7070704@ameritech.net>
References: <47BF863E.7070704@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <47C3060C.3010708@comcast.net>

I am trying to share a fat32 partition on my Linux box with a WinXP box
also on the network.  I turned Samba Server on.  I think I have the
setting right for the partition I want shared.  Do I need client
software on the WinXP box?

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Feb 25 13:18:39 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 13:18:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C3060C.3010708@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>

You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.

What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on the WinXP Box to
be able to connect to the Samba box.

Create a Unix user.

Then create a Samba user with the same name.


-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:17 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] Samba
> 
> I am trying to share a fat32 partition on my Linux box with a 
> WinXP box also on the network.  I turned Samba Server on.  I 
> think I have the setting right for the partition I want 
> shared.  Do I need client software on the WinXP box?
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Star Trek mort. 
> Viva la Star Trek admiraetur The Olde Phoenix Inn 
> Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From ldaphelp at thuemmel.com  Mon Feb 25 13:45:09 2008
From: ldaphelp at thuemmel.com (Mark Thuemmel)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 13:45:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C30CB5.6040503@thuemmel.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.
> What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on the WinXP Box to
> be able to connect to the Samba box.
> Create a Unix user.
> Then create a Samba user with the same name.
> -Rob
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
>> Subject: [mdlug] Samba
>>
>> I am trying to share a fat32 partition on my Linux box with a 
>> WinXP box also on the network.  I turned Samba Server on.  I 
>> think I have the setting right for the partition I want 
>> shared.  Do I need client software on the WinXP box?
>> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.


The Samba Fault Tree in http://www.faqs.org/docs/samba/ch12.html has a 
nice step by step process to trouble shoot Samba.

The distribution you are using probably has its own preferred way to 
administer Samba....which flavor of Linux is this on?

Or you may just try adding this quick and dirty to your 
/etc/samba/smb.conf file and restart Samba.  Then browse from your WinXP 
box.


[test]
path = /home/garry
force user = garry
force group = garry
read only = No
guest ok = Yes
available = yes
browsable = yes
public = yes
writable = yes



From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Mon Feb 25 19:02:38 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:02:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] How to count perl NCSL
Message-ID: <20080226000238.AEAD3127CEE@starfox.local>

Perl users,

How can one count the NCSL (non-comment source lines) in a perl script?

Can anyone (dis)recommend software metrics tools for perl scripts?

How can one search CPAN for such tools?

TIA,
-- 
Bob

  "Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code,
   will be a violent psychopath who knows where you live."
     -- Damian Conway 1999 "Perl Best Practices"



From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 25 19:26:15 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:26:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] How to count perl NCSL
In-Reply-To: <20080226000238.AEAD3127CEE@starfox.local>
References: <20080226000238.AEAD3127CEE@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802251919210.5386@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-25, Monsieur Robert Meier a ecrit:
> How can one count the NCSL (non-comment source lines) in a perl script?

To count noncomment lines (including blank lines):

egrep -cv '^[[:space:]]*#' yourscript.pl

To count noncomment lines which are not blank:

egrep -cv '(^[[:space:]]*#|^[[:space:]]*$)' yourscript.pl

Michael


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Feb 25 20:16:17 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:16:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C36861.1040502@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.
>
> What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on the WinXP Box to
> be able to connect to the Samba box.
>
> Create a Unix user.
>
> Then create a Samba user with the same name.
>   

This I don't get.  I can create a user on Gate, no problem.  How do I
create a Samba user?

Oh Suse 9.3 going on here.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 25 21:11:39 2008
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:11:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C36861.1040502@comcast.net>
References: <20080225181807.C76E6C0C6@impelind.com>
	<47C36861.1040502@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1203991899.3268.0.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

smbpasswd is your friend :)

-Jason

On Mon, 2008-02-25 at 20:16 -0500, Garry Stahl wrote:
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.
> >
> > What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on the WinXP Box to
> > be able to connect to the Samba box.
> >
> > Create a Unix user.
> >
> > Then create a Samba user with the same name.
> >   
> 
> This I don't get.  I can create a user on Gate, no problem.  How do I
> create a Samba user?
> 
> Oh Suse 9.3 going on here.
> 
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080225/e7cda89d/attachment-0001.sig>

From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Mon Feb 25 22:01:41 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:01:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] How to count perl NCSL
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802251919210.5386@banana.sluggo.net> (message
	from Michael Corral on Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:26:15 -0500 (EST))
References: <20080226000238.AEAD3127CEE@starfox.local>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802251919210.5386@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20080226030141.66F26127CEE@starfox.local>

Michael,

> To count noncomment lines (including blank lines):
> egrep -cv '^[[:space:]]*#' yourscript.pl

Thank you.

That is a reasonable approximation.

Is there a tool, that parses perl to handle
other forms of comments (e.g. perldoc) and non-comments (e.g. #s in quotes)?

Has anyone used sclc (http://www.cmcrossroads.com/bradapp/clearperl/sclc.html)?

TIA,
-- 
Bob

  "From now on we live in a world where man has walked on the Moon.
   It's not a miracle; we just decided to go."
     -- Tom Hanks


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Feb 26 09:29:13 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:29:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C36861.1040502@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>

Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.

Yast2 has a tool for creating Samba users.

However... From the CLI.

First have a UNIX User created.

Then type in (as root)

smbpasswd -a <username>

This will add the user, then you will need to use smbpasswd with the
username and no flag to create the password for that user.


-Rob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 8:16 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Samba
> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > You need no client softwareon the WinXP Box.
> >
> > What you need is a Samba Account configured for the user on 
> the WinXP 
> > Box to be able to connect to the Samba box.
> >
> > Create a Unix user.
> >
> > Then create a Samba user with the same name.
> >   
> 
> This I don't get.  I can create a user on Gate, no problem.  
> How do I create a Samba user?
> 
> Oh Suse 9.3 going on here.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Star Trek mort. 
> Viva la Star Trek admiraetur The Olde Phoenix Inn 
> Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Tue Feb 26 18:23:38 2008
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (Robert Meier)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:23:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] doxygen, C (not C++), imake
Message-ID: <20080226232338.7750D19E608@starfox.local>

doxygen users,

Is there a better tool than doxygen for extracting documentation from C code?

Is there a standard technique/target/macro for using doxygen with imake?

Does anyone have a Doxyfile they found useful for non-object-oriented C?

I'm looking to automate extraction of markup in C code.
The C code is not object oriented by struct,
but is weakly object oriented by file,
using static functions/variables analagous to private members,
and non-static functions analagous to public members.

I'm hoping someone more familiar with Doxyfile options can direct me
to settings that pick up
   @file marker in each file
   each static and non-static function whether or not marked
   static variables if marked

TIA,
-- 
Bob

  "The good news about computers is that they do what you tell them to do.
   The bad news is that they do what you tell them to do."
     -- Ted Nelson



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Wed Feb 27 12:46:25 2008
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:46:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
Message-ID: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just 
downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply 
all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 27 15:09:24 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:09:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C5C374.7020901@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
>
>   

I'm holding off until they get the kinks out of KDE 4.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 27 15:11:30 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:11:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080226142843.CDFB5C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C5C3F2.3060807@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
>
> Yast2 has a tool for creating Samba users.
>
> However... From the CLI.
>
> First have a UNIX User created.
>
> Then type in (as root)
>
> smbpasswd -a <username>
>
> This will add the user, then you will need to use smbpasswd with the
> username and no flag to create the password for that user.
>   

So smbpasswd -a <username>

Followed with

smbpasswd <username> <password>

Right?

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Feb 27 15:13:20 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:13:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C5C374.7020901@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080227201253.AD938C0C6@impelind.com>

KDE 4 isn't part of the core for OpenSuSe 10.3, it was offered as an
optional installable for "playing around" with.

The default KDE is 3.5.x and it rocks quite nicely. People whom I have shown
Linux to believe that the KDE 3.5.x desktop I am running in Windows XP at
first.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 3:09 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Samba
> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
> >
> >   
> 
> I'm holding off until they get the kinks out of KDE 4.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Star Trek mort. 
> Viva la Star Trek admiraetur The Olde Phoenix Inn 
> http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com Metro Detroit Linux Users Group 
> http://www.mdlug.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Feb 27 15:14:11 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:14:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C5C3F2.3060807@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20080227201344.75381C0C6@impelind.com>

> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
> >
> > Yast2 has a tool for creating Samba users.
> >
> > However... From the CLI.
> >
> > First have a UNIX User created.
> >
> > Then type in (as root)
> >
> > smbpasswd -a <username>
> >
> > This will add the user, then you will need to use smbpasswd 
> with the 
> > username and no flag to create the password for that user.
> >   
> 
> So smbpasswd -a <username>
> 
> Followed with
> 
> smbpasswd <username> <password>
> 
> Right?
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 

  Yes.

  Longwinded, I can be.

	-Rob



From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Feb 27 16:37:36 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 16:37:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080227201344.75381C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080227201344.75381C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C5D820.7080107@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>> Robert Adkins wrote:
>>     
>>> Upgrade to OpenSuSe 10.3.
>>>
>>> Yast2 has a tool for creating Samba users.
>>>
>>> However... From the CLI.
>>>
>>> First have a UNIX User created.
>>>
>>> Then type in (as root)
>>>
>>> smbpasswd -a <username>
>>>
>>> This will add the user, then you will need to use smbpasswd 
>>>       
>> with the 
>>     
>>> username and no flag to create the password for that user.
>>>   
>>>       
>> So smbpasswd -a <username>
>>
>> Followed with
>>
>> smbpasswd <username> <password>
>>
>> Right?
>>
>> --
>> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
>>
>>     
>
>   Yes.
>
>   Longwinded, I can be.
>   

But I finally have the shared drive working.  Thank you.  I can now use
ImageDupless form the XP to check graphics on the Fat32 drive on gate.

Now to solve the read/write issue


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From rjclay at gmail.com  Wed Feb 27 20:44:03 2008
From: rjclay at gmail.com (Robert J. Clay)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:44:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a379574a0802271744g64cc786fscabed34401b0f6c3@mail.gmail.com>

Dean,
On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Dean Durant <mdlug at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just
>  downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply
>  all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in

     Do you know for a fact that what you've downloaded does not
already have all the options you need, already?



-- 
Robert J. Clay
rjclay at gmail.com


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Wed Feb 27 20:51:19 2008
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:51:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C61397.9050200@wideopenwest.com>

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just 
> downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply 
> all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
> aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
> or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.

With apt-get you would use 'apt-get source package-name'

to down load source files.

make sure you have a like something like this in your 
/etc/apt/source.list file

deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ etch main contrib non-free

I don't use aptitude or any of the other apt-get front ends so can't 
help you there.

BD


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Wed Feb 27 21:53:16 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:53:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802271853o151d71b3g7e333fee69a986fa@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 12:46 PM, Dean Durant <mdlug at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just
>  downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply
>  all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
>  aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
>  or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.


To see what files were included with a package:

dpkg -L packagename

example:

dpkg -L squid3


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Feb 28 00:40:12 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:40:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <20080227201253.AD938C0C6@impelind.com>
References: <20080227201253.AD938C0C6@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47C6493C.9010202@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> KDE 4 isn't part of the core for OpenSuSe 10.3, it was offered as an
> optional installable for "playing around" with.
>   

I know.  That is why I was going to wait another upgrade cycle before
upgrading.  I'm running 9.3 now.


Now I need to get this permissions thing worked out.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 28 00:47:15 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:47:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C6493C.9010202@comcast.net>
References: <20080227201253.AD938C0C6@impelind.com>
	<47C6493C.9010202@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47C64AE3.8000900@arb.net>

Hi Garry, been using 10.3 for more than a year now. I would not wait for 
just that feature.

-dave

Garry Stahl wrote:

>Robert Adkins wrote:
>  
>
>>KDE 4 isn't part of the core for OpenSuSe 10.3, it was offered as an
>>optional installable for "playing around" with.
>>  
>>    
>>
>
>I know.  That is why I was going to wait another upgrade cycle before
>upgrading.  I'm running 9.3 now.
>
>
>Now I need to get this permissions thing worked out.
>
>  
>


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Feb 28 09:24:52 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:24:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C64AE3.8000900@arb.net>
Message-ID: <20080228142425.46470C0C6@impelind.com>

I agree.

9.3 is no longer officially supported, thus there are no readily available
patches/updates.

10.3 is still going to be supported for at least another year or two after
11.whatever is released.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Dave Arbogast
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:47 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Samba
> 
> Hi Garry, been using 10.3 for more than a year now. I would 
> not wait for just that feature.
> 
> -dave
> 
> Garry Stahl wrote:
> 
> >Robert Adkins wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>KDE 4 isn't part of the core for OpenSuSe 10.3, it was 
> offered as an 
> >>optional installable for "playing around" with.
> >>  
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >I know.  That is why I was going to wait another upgrade 
> cycle before 
> >upgrading.  I'm running 9.3 now.
> >
> >
> >Now I need to get this permissions thing worked out.
> >
> >  
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Thu Feb 28 14:07:18 2008
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 14:07:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1204225638.5377.30.camel@laptop01>

On Wed, 2008-02-27 at 09:46 -0800, Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just 
> downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply 
> all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
> aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
> or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.

You should just be able to do apt-get install squid



From rrclark at rrclark.net  Thu Feb 28 15:32:28 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:32:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Samba
In-Reply-To: <47C3060C.3010708@comcast.net>
References: <47BF863E.7070704@ameritech.net> <47C3060C.3010708@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281530070.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Garry Stahl wrote:

> I am trying to share a fat32 partition on my Linux box with a WinXP box
> also on the network.  I turned Samba Server on.  I think I have the
> setting right for the partition I want shared.  Do I need client
> software on the WinXP box?

Samba is the server, Windows network extensions built into WinXP act as 
the client, same as when you have a network client XP machine connecting 
to a Windows XP server.

Here:  http://us1.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Collection/


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Thu Feb 28 15:23:20 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:23:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281517530.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008, Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

> The IR jamming topic was fascinating - the discussion of how it might
> be implemented and what effects it has on consumer gadgets was very
> interesting.  It has since turned into a political discussion.  Since
> the subject quite clearly says the topic is OT, I can't simply ask you
> guys to take the discussion elsewhere.
>
> This got me thinking, and that got me searching. Are there any clients
> and/or plugins that allow ignoring sub-threads?  Not the whole thread,
> just a certain root message and all threads below that root message.
> My searching got no where, and I'm not in inclined to write a new
> client and/or plugin that supports this idea.
>
> Does anyone know of or use a client and/or plugin that supports this
> idea?  I imagine it would see some decent use in mailing lists
> everywhere.

Best luck I've had is to solve it at the procmail level. Create a 
.procmailrc file in your home directory. An entry like so should take care 
of the problem of OT messages, as long as the original writer obeys the 
undocumented convention in crafting the subject line:

:0:
* ^Subject:.*\[mdlug\]\ OT
$HOME/Mail/mail/MDLUG-OT

The end result is OT messages should be filtered to Mail/mail/MDLUG-OT/ 
subdirectory under your home directory.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Thu Feb 28 15:28:37 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:28:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008, Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Kristian Erik Hermansen
> <kristian.hermansen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  I use gmail (so do you), and heavily utilize the 'mute' command ->
>>  shortcut == 'm'.  Hit 'm' on your keyboard while reading this thread.
>>  You will notice that gmail mutes the conversation and you will not see
>>  any more emails on this topic :-)
>
> This causes the whole thread to be ignored, which isn't what I want.
> I'm looking to ignore sub-threads, take for example a thread that may
> look like this:
>
> Interesting thread
> -Interesting reply
> --Interesting reply
> ---somewhat interesting political comparison
> ----political rant  (ignore this and it's sub-threads)
> -----political rant (ignored)
> ------political rant (ignored)
> -Interesting reply
> --Interesting reply
>
> If I use mute or any ignore equivalent, the majority of browsers will
> cause the whole thread to be ignored.  Raymond made a good point that
> ignoring certain sub-threads may cause me to miss some of the good
> stuff - that's something I can live with since I chose to ignore that
> particular sub-thread.  It isn't much different than ignoring a whole
> thread and possibly missing a useful nugget or two.
>
> I'm just looking to personally ignore the thread branches which are of
> little value to myself.  This could apply to political discussions,
> ethical discussions, or even discussions on the differences between
> Suse and Debian.
>
> Ignoring a whole thread is a bad idea.  Let's say a particular thread
> with many off-topic discussions is ignored by me, and eventually dies.
> The root of this thread may have been something interesting which
> someones, maybe weeks or months later, decides to add their own good
> content to the thread.  If I've ignored the whole thread, I'll never
> know that person's contribution.  If I can ignore particular
> sub-threads which are of little value, then I'm running a smaller
> risk.
>
> Yes, I'm being nit-picky on this.  I'm sure there are many others out
> there who would agree with these thoughts and opinions, whether
> they're on this list or not.
>
> Every one has an opinion, I just might not want to know everyone's opinion.

I agree that you should have full control over it; however, it's sad that 
Google hasn't thought about the approach nor have the Thunderbird devs. I 
wonder if a bug report to either organization is in order?

I also wonder, does Gmail allow you to either forward email to a 
self-hosted mailserver or retrieve email via POP3 or similar protocol? 
Again, fetchmail and procmail would be your friends, and you could read 
messages with pine/alpine or similar curses-based mail client that would 
offer better filtering that you could ever get with webmail or 
Thunderbird.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Thu Feb 28 15:37:17 2008
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:37:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] squid configure script on Debian?
In-Reply-To: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <319557.35281.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281536560.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008, Dean Durant wrote:

> Hello, I have a Debian 4 box and I've used aptitude to get squid and squid3.   Normally, when I've just
> downloaded squid, and untarred it, there is a configure script that you can run, or need to run, to supply
> all these options, so it can make it with all the options compiled in.   I'm trying to find the source using
> aptitude, or apt-get, and it doesn't find it.  Does anyone know if the squid source is available for debian,
> or am I thinking about it all wrong?     Thanks, Dean.

Run the following

apt-get update
apt-get install squid

Get back to us with any failure messages.


From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Feb 28 16:41:11 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:41:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-28, Monsieur Rich Clark <rrclark at rrclark.net> a ecrit:
> I also wonder, does Gmail allow you to either forward email to a
> self-hosted mailserver or retrieve email via POP3 or similar protocol?
> Again, fetchmail and procmail would be your friends, and you could read
> messages with pine/alpine or similar curses-based mail client that would
> offer better filtering that you could ever get with webmail or
> Thunderbird.

Using Alpine you could connect directly to Gmail via IMAP, and then
use Alpine's built-in filtering capabilities. That way you avoid both
the lousy webmail interface to Gmail and the procmail middleman.
There are lots of people doing exactly that. Here's a quick howto
for using Alpine (or the older Pine) with Gmail and IMAP:
http://www.ii.com/internet/messaging/pine/pc/#gmailIMAP

Michael


From gib at juno.com  Thu Feb 28 19:55:51 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 00:55:51 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>


I found a 20 inch monitor today.  It was sitting in the street in front of my house.  I wonder if someone wanted to abandon it and knew I collected old computer stuff.
_____________________________________________________________
Inventors: Does your idea have potential for millions? Click for info.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iie4kF8yr2UMiNBrsLZhibT82DYBBNjAbZO6hD1i42PnKz4dG/




From mdlug3 at arb.net  Thu Feb 28 20:06:42 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 20:06:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47C75AA2.9060907@arb.net>

I just gave a couple of 21" monitors to the Salvation Army in Walled 
Lake. They both work fine and are probably still there.  I don't miss 
them after moving to a 17" laptop. (1440x900)

-dave

gib at juno.com wrote:

>I found a 20 inch monitor today.  It was sitting in the street in front of my house.  I wonder if someone wanted to abandon it and knew I collected old computer stuff.
>_____________________________________________________________
>Inventors: Does your idea have potential for millions? Click for info.
>http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iie4kF8yr2UMiNBrsLZhibT82DYBBNjAbZO6hD1i42PnKz4dG/
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Thu Feb 28 21:43:59 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:43:59 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>  use Alpine's built-in filtering capabilities. That way you avoid both
>  the lousy webmail interface to Gmail and the procmail middleman.

What's wrong with the GMail interface?  I can be much more productive
using it than anything else.  I'd like to see you try successfully
searching gigabytes of email on a single machine in the same time that
Google does it via MapReduce ;-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Feb 28 22:04:21 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:04:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282157320.2883@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-28, Monsieur Kristian Erik Hermansen a ecrit:
>>  use Alpine's built-in filtering capabilities. That way you avoid both
>>  the lousy webmail interface to Gmail and the procmail middleman.
>
> What's wrong with the GMail interface?  I can be much more productive
> using it than anything else.  I'd like to see you try successfully
> searching gigabytes of email on a single machine in the same time that
> Google does it via MapReduce ;-)

Well, to each his/her own. I guess my idea of productivity doesn't
include waiting for a web browser to update the window every time I
want to do anything with my mail. Call me crazy. ;)

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Feb 28 21:39:47 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:39:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
> I found a 20 inch monitor today.  It was sitting in the street in front of my house.  I wonder if someone wanted to abandon it and knew I collected old computer stuff.

So it's true.

There really is a Monitor Fairy ;-)




From kristian.hermansen at gmail.com  Thu Feb 28 22:19:53 2008
From: kristian.hermansen at gmail.com (Kristian Erik Hermansen)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 19:19:53 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282157320.2883@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282157320.2883@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <fe37588d0802281919u57d1db7bsdb0262d50045b33d@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>  Well, to each his/her own. I guess my idea of productivity doesn't
>  include waiting for a web browser to update the window every time I
>  want to do anything with my mail. Call me crazy. ;)

Agreed, but the threading and auto-hide features, auto-spam detection,
and other filtering options that I don't have to deal with keep me
loving GMail.  I don't have to manage my stuff and it's always up.
Nearly no downtime.  I have managed systems for long enough to
understand that there are a few kinds of people.  The smart people
like to solve a never-ending stream of problems very effectively and
efficiently.  In fact, sometimes these people enjoy just that.  The
wise people just avoid them :-)
-- 
Kristian Erik Hermansen
--
"It has been just so in all my inventions. The first step is an
intuition--and comes with a burst, then difficulties arise. This thing
gives out and then that--'Bugs'--as such little faults and
difficulties are called--show themselves and months of anxious
watching, study and labor are requisite before commercial success--or
failure--is certainly reached" -- Thomas Edison in a letter to
Theodore Puskas on November 18, 1878


From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Feb 28 22:38:43 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:38:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Are there any clients that support sub-thread blocking?
In-Reply-To: <fe37588d0802281919u57d1db7bsdb0262d50045b33d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f0e9fe590802240744p492e3ebbkbf008f60864f68b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<fe37588d0802241608y21b9bcf7pffac449451fb77b@mail.gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590802241859j203b4826lda8350a746bf4fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LRH.1.00.0802281524480.4166@rich.private.rrclark.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802281631190.3011@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802281843k637e5851rb8a52198e5d3b70a@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282157320.2883@banana.sluggo.net>
	<fe37588d0802281919u57d1db7bsdb0262d50045b33d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802282232290.3429@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-28, Monsieur Kristian Erik Hermansen a ecrit:
> Agreed, but the threading and auto-hide features, auto-spam detection,
> and other filtering options that I don't have to deal with keep me
> loving GMail.  I don't have to manage my stuff and it's always up.

You mean when you want certain messages filtered, Gmail is able to
read your mind and create the filters for you automatically without
you having to configure anything? Wow, Gmail is even more powerful
than I imagined! *gg*

> Nearly no downtime.  I have managed systems for long enough to
> understand that there are a few kinds of people.  The smart people
> like to solve a never-ending stream of problems very effectively and
> efficiently.  In fact, sometimes these people enjoy just that.  The
> wise people just avoid them :-)

Absolutely. And, of course, the not-so-wise people like to delude
themselves into thinking they're avoiding problems that actually
exist. ;)

Michael


From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 01:21:10 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:21:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <132697.65552.qm@web38011.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm using a 20" monitor that someone was giving away on the local free cycle list.  They thought it was a 19" at the time.  This one also has a nifty usb hub in the base.

----- Original Message ----
From: "gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com>
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:55:51 PM
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today



I 
found 
a 
20 
inch 
monitor 
today.  
It 
was 
sitting 
in 
the 
street 
in 
front 
of 
my 
house.  
I 
wonder 
if 
someone 
wanted 
to 
abandon 
it 
and 
knew 
I 
collected 
old 
computer 
stuff.
_____________________________________________________________
Inventors: 
Does 
your 
idea 
have 
potential 
for 
millions? 
Click 
for 
info.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iie4kF8yr2UMiNBrsLZhibT82DYBBNjAbZO6hD1i42PnKz4dG/


_______________________________________________
mdlug 
mailing 
list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Feb 29 01:36:00 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 01:36:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-28, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
> There really is a Monitor Fairy ;-)

CRTs are dying a rapid death. These days you can pretty much get
a free 20" CRT when you buy a box of Count Chocula.

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 01:46:50 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 01:46:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2008-02-28, Monsieur Aaron Kulkis a ecrit:
>> There really is a Monitor Fairy ;-)
> 
> CRTs are dying a rapid death. These days you can pretty much get
> a free 20" CRT when you buy a box of Count Chocula.

I have a 21", which i think has another 10 good years left in it.

I bought it for $1400 in 1997... figuring it would last me 20
years, which comes to about $70/year.


So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
or to give it up.



From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 01:53:31 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:53:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <457393.26845.qm@web38006.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


2008-02-28, 
Monsieur 
Aaron 
Kulkis 
a 
ecrit:
> 
There 
really 
is 
a 
Monitor 
Fairy 
;-)
> 
> 
CRTs 
are 
dying 
a 
rapid 
death. 
These 
days 
you 
can 
pretty 
much 
get
> 
a 
free 
20" 
CRT 
when 
you 
buy 
a 
box 
of 
Count 
Chocula.

Yeah, but who still eats Count Chocula?  they have to do something to get you to buy it




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 



From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Feb 29 03:20:04 2008
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 03:20:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
> consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
> or to give it up.
>   

I ditched them for space considerations.  I never have had the room for
the beasts.  Less with multiple monitors in one room.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 13:33:11 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:33:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star' logo.  PC pc's!

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
> consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
> or to give it up.
>   





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb 29 13:33:42 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:33:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>
	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com> <47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802291033r25a4bd93u35663af4f17cb4ff@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:20 AM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>  I ditched them for space considerations.  I never have had the room for
>  the beasts.  Less with multiple monitors in one room.

Me too.  I also use a D-Link KVM switch.  I've got two 20 inch CRTs
sitting in a corner of my office and will probably end up with two
more soon.  Another problem with CRTs is the weight which causes most
desk tops to warp.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 14:22:17 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:22:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>

Scott Webster Wood wrote:
> Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
 > logo.  PC pc's!
> 

It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
everything to do with the economics of paying for
electricity.

This is why all of the various political "save energy"
measures are actually just ruses for some other agenda.

Truly energy efficient devices don't need to be subsidized.

Any time some group wants Congress to get involved to
mandate that people "use less energy"... there's some
other agenda at the roof of it.

Two years ago, we replaced a 1970's furnace with a new
high efficiency (98%+) furnace.  Last winter, our gas
bills were estimates based on the basis of consumption
over previous years.  We ended up accumulating so much
credit (due to overbilling) that despite a much colder
winter than the past several years, we still have
several hundred dollars of credit with the gas company.

If something is "energy efficient" but isn't being
used because of extremely high purchase costs, that
a very good indicator that there's a very substantial
energy input to make the thing in the first place.

This is why photoelectric cells are not economical up
here in Michigan -- the energy input to make the wafers
is so high, and in operation, the energy output so
low, that it takes YEARS just to recover the energy
used to make the device in the first place.  And
if the thing breaks (they're quite fragile) before
lasting that long, then this so-called "energy
saving" device has actually consumed more energy
than it ever produced.

And that's why nobody here is going to use them
for power production unless government clods in
Lansing or Washington subsidize them.




> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
>> consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
>> or to give it up.
>>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 




From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Feb 29 14:40:53 2008
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:40:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20080229194028.A81BEC0C6@impelind.com>


> 
> If something is "energy efficient" but isn't being used 
> because of extremely high purchase costs, that a very good 
> indicator that there's a very substantial energy input to 
> make the thing in the first place.
> 
> This is why photoelectric cells are not economical up here in 
> Michigan -- the energy input to make the wafers is so high, 
> and in operation, the energy output so low, that it takes 
> YEARS just to recover the energy used to make the device in 
> the first place.  And if the thing breaks (they're quite 
> fragile) before lasting that long, then this so-called 
> "energy saving" device has actually consumed more energy than 
> it ever produced.
> 
> And that's why nobody here is going to use them for power 
> production unless government clods in Lansing or Washington 
> subsidize them.
> 
> 

	Aaron,

	You really should read more.

	http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051009202947.htm

	
http://breakfornews.com/my/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid
=491

	http://www.technewsworld.com/story/40971.html

	At least two of the above are about 3 years old articles. Some of
what they were talking about is beginning to become Market Ready. Also,
Michigan does receive, on average, enough sunlight to make these new panels
far more interesting than previously considered.

	Within the next five years, unless strongly fought against, these
new technologies will cause a massive drop in the costs of solar panels and
their increased output will contribute considerably to lowering the time
span before they pay themselves off in savings.

	Alternative Energy sources are the next "big thing", partly because
the technology is rising in capabilities while lowering in costs and the
"green" conscious consumer are also rising in numbers.

	There's a very recent story on nanoparticles being used to generate
significantly more Hyrdogen from cracking water then previously thought
possible. I recall it said something like the official government set
benchmark was a 10% increase by 2010 and this tech can provide a 85%
increase in production, today.

	-Rob



From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 14:53:22 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 11:53:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <614296.73864.qm@web38011.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Sure it has to do with efficiency, but to say it has nothing to do with political correctness is hogwash.

----- Original Message ----
From: Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:22:17 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today

Scott Webster Wood wrote:
> Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
 > logo.  PC pc's!
> 

It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
everything to do with the economics of paying for
electricity.



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Fri Feb 29 14:53:26 2008
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:53:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>  >
>
>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>  electricity.
>
<snip>

oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
Clinton



-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb 29 14:57:40 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:57:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802291157u5ed6029x78ff433519fd6639@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>  >
>
>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>  electricity.

Also air conditioning costs in the summer.  It will also reduce
heating costs if the electrical energy costs are greater then other
heating energy costs.

>  This is why all of the various political "save energy"
>  measures are actually just ruses for some other agenda.
>
>  Truly energy efficient devices don't need to be subsidized.

Not permanently anyways.  It takes incentives to achieve enough demand
and get prices down though mass production efficiency.

>  Any time some group wants Congress to get involved to
>  mandate that people "use less energy"... there's some
>  other agenda at the roof of it.

The are usually hidden costs and benefits to any program.  Ethanol may
not be the answer to everyone's energy problems yet but if organic
sources other than corn can be converted with greater efficiency then
it may reduce total energy costs in the future when other sources like
oil are much more expensive.  It takes time to develop the technology
however and if companies in Michigan do it first then the state stands
to benefit from their growth.  It's also an economic benefit to small
family farm operations like ADM and will provide jobs for many people
in China or whatever third-world country is the outsource leader then.

>  Two years ago, we replaced a 1970's furnace with a new
>  high efficiency (98%+) furnace.  Last winter, our gas
>  bills were estimates based on the basis of consumption
>  over previous years.  We ended up accumulating so much
>  credit (due to overbilling) that despite a much colder
>  winter than the past several years, we still have
>  several hundred dollars of credit with the gas company.
>
>  If something is "energy efficient" but isn't being
>  used because of extremely high purchase costs, that
>  a very good indicator that there's a very substantial
>  energy input to make the thing in the first place.

It's also a time lag issue with the development of the technology.
Furnaces did not get that efficient overnight.  Prior to improved heat
exchangers you only option was to disconnect them from the chimney and
exhaust them inside.  That doesn't work very well with oil furnaces
because of the odor.  You end up spending more money on air fresheners
than you gain on improved energy recovery.

>  This is why photoelectric cells are not economical up
>  here in Michigan -- the energy input to make the wafers
>  is so high, and in operation, the energy output so
>  low, that it takes YEARS just to recover the energy
>  used to make the device in the first place.  And
>  if the thing breaks (they're quite fragile) before
>  lasting that long, then this so-called "energy
>  saving" device has actually consumed more energy
>  than it ever produced.
>
>  And that's why nobody here is going to use them
>  for power production unless government clods in
>  Lansing or Washington subsidize them.

That can be partially compensated for by building more energy
efficient homes and utilizing thermal energy from solar radiation in
addition to electrical conversion.  Adjusting the Earth's inclination
of rotation would also increase the available energy.

Another problem with CRTs is the amount of lead and other toxins in
them.  I'm not sure how they compare to LCDs though.  CRTs can't be
just dumped into landfills without causing major environmental
problems.  Reuse only delays the problem as all monitors will
eventually fail.  They need to be recycled properly in China where
their rivers seem to handle the toxins better than ours.


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Fri Feb 29 15:00:55 2008
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:00:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47C86477.506@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

>
>This is why photoelectric cells are not economical up
>here in Michigan -- the energy input to make the wafers
>is so high, and in operation, the energy output so
>low, that it takes YEARS just to recover the energy
>used to make the device in the first place.  And
>if the thing breaks (they're quite fragile) before
>lasting that long, then this so-called "energy
>saving" device has actually consumed more energy
>than it ever produced.
>
>And that's why nobody here is going to use them
>for power production unless government clods in
>Lansing or Washington subsidize them.
>
>
>  
>
I'd say the proof is in the pudding. Next time you drive through a 
construction zone, you'll notice ALL the little trailers with flashing 
lights are no longer powered by little diesel single cylinder 
generators, but with Photovoltic. Also, more and more you will notice 
solar cells hanging off  various remote sensors and cameras. This is 
because private businesses have seen they are cost effective NOW in 
Michigan.

Yes, if you scale up to your entire house there will be a 7 - 10 year 
ROI for the entire amount, but after that you are in the free power 
zone. Most of the equipment will still be under warranty for another 15 
- 18 years....

If government was really interested in energy independence, they would 
not be granting $200M per pop to auto companies for fuel cell research. 
This money could have gone a long way to putting PV on most of the homes 
in America. The cost of PV would have dropped that much more due to 
economy of scale.  But, there is a serious governmental problem with 
this, just as diesel-hybrid cars have - you loose part of your tax base 
with PV and with 40% efficient cars. Cars that can be ran on used veggie 
oil.  Fuel Cells keep your tax base as it is not feasible for you to 
make your own hydrogen and store it at the pressures a fuel cell car 
needs. If someone made such a system, they would likely pass laws 
against it as California did with running your diesel on much clearer 
burning veggie oil.  Got to keep the tax base.

-dave


From tcameron at redhat.com  Fri Feb 29 15:22:59 2008
From: tcameron at redhat.com (Thomas Cameron (Red Hat))
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:22:59 -0600
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>
References: <20080228.195551.8112.1@webmail19.vgs.untd.com>	<47C77073.7030204@hotpop.com>	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802290130200.6611@banana.sluggo.net>	<47C7AA5A.9040106@hotpop.com>
	<47C7C034.7090409@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <47C869A3.9080706@redhat.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Garry Stahl wrote:
| Aaron Kulkis wrote:
|> So far, it's doing well....although i'm not sure if the power
|> consumption vs flat screens makes it a good idea to keep it
|> or to give it up.
|>
|
| I ditched them for space considerations.  I never have had the room for
| the beasts.  Less with multiple monitors in one room.

Yeah, I dumped my CRTs for a pair of 19" ViewSonic LCDs in dual-head.
Video of my dual-head desktop with compiz-fusion at
http://www.camerontech.com/compiz-fusion-dual-head.ogg

- --
Thomas Cameron, RHCE, RHCX, CNE, MCSE, MCT
Solutions Architect Team Lead, Central Region
512-241-0774 office / 512-585-5631 cell / 512-857-1345 fax

Red Hat rated #1 in value by CIOs for four years running:
http://www.redhat.com/about/news/prarchive/2007/CIO_Insight_Study.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHyGmjmzle50YHwaARAnhWAJwIEmzzaMy8OVab0U8XR+s13d4HIACdHXwa
OTP6l8JNIUfM/48gyZIT2Kk=
=k6xj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 29 15:23:48 2008
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:23:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com><47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>
To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today


> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>>  >
>>
>>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>>  electricity.
>>
> <snip>
>
> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
> Clinton

Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)

-Mike







From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Feb 29 15:34:20 2008
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:34:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90802291234v539402c5k67119e4578b196f8@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Michael ORourke
<mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>  From: "Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>
>  To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>  Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:53 PM
>  Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
>
>
>  > On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>  >> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>  >>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>  >>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>  >>  >
>  >>
>  >>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>  >>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>  >>  electricity.
>  >>
>  > <snip>
>  >
>  > oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
>  > Clinton
>
>  Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)

If someone was trying to develop a solution to the problem then the
content being created here is an excellent resource for testing.
Maybe we should split the topic off and call it "political rant filter
testing data".  We could even set up a mailing list server that spews
the stuff randomly for developers to test against.  We just have to
get all the off topic stuff released under a Creative Commons license
of some sort.

By the way, this is another form of recycling. :D


From treii28 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 29 16:05:35 2008
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:05:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
Message-ID: <156639.60526.qm@web38010.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Wow, what a reactionary bunch we are.  All I said was a quick quip and y'all are going into hyper-head-in-the-sand mode.  I'd comment on what that might tell us but all I wanted to do was make a quick silly comment.

> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
> Clinton

Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)

-Mike





_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 



From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Feb 29 18:37:57 2008
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:37:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>
	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802291836270.2252@banana.sluggo.net>

2008-02-29, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)

Heh, it took you longer to type that message than to just hit the
delete key. *gg*

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 16:10:57 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:10:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com><47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
	<003e01c87b10$fe0542f0$6601a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <47C874E1.9010704@hotpop.com>

Michael ORourke wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>
> To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>>> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>>>  > Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>>>   > logo.  PC pc's!
>>>  >
>>>
>>>  It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
>>>  everything to do with the economics of paying for
>>>  electricity.
>>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
>> Clinton
> 
> Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)
> 

Hahhaha -- now that was pretty funny.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 16:14:40 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:14:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <156639.60526.qm@web38010.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <156639.60526.qm@web38010.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C875C0.8030803@hotpop.com>

Scott Webster Wood wrote:
> Wow, what a reactionary bunch we are.  All I said was a quick quip and y'all are going into hyper-head-in-the-sand mode.  I'd comment on what that might tell us but all I wanted to do was make a quick silly comment.
> 

It's not nearly as bad as another list I'm on, which
will remain nameless until for at least as long as the
list admin has his head stuffed inside his posterior.

>> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
>> Clinton
> 
> Another solution might be the addition of a turbo delete key.  :-)
> 
> -Mike




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 15:03:35 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:03:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <614296.73864.qm@web38011.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <614296.73864.qm@web38011.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47C86517.7090909@hotpop.com>

Scott Webster Wood wrote:
> Sure it has to do with efficiency, but to say it has nothing
 > to do with political correctness is hogwash.

Maybe the formation of the "energy star" group...
to keep government off their backs...

But for me, energy COSTS are part of my decision-making process.
And any competently run business, too.

> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:22:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
> 
> Scott Webster Wood wrote:
>> Yes, I knew it was coming the first time I saw that 'energy star'
>  > logo.  PC pc's!
> 
> It has nothing to do with political correctness, and
> everything to do with the economics of paying for
> electricity.
> 
> 
> 
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Feb 29 21:00:10 2008
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:00:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I found a 20 inch monitor today
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0802291836270.2252@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <69826.85182.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<47C85B69.8000308@hotpop.com>	<f0e9fe590802291153n6a98deat698f17b3039ba397@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0802291836270.2252@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47C8B8AA.3010302@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2008-02-29, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>> oh boy, here we go!  now if I only had that sub-thread filter... =)
> 
> Heh, it took you longer to type that message than to just hit the
> delete key. *gg*

or to just move on to the next message




From gib at juno.com  Fri Feb 29 21:57:28 2008
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 02:57:28 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Fw: News For Entrepreneurs
Message-ID: <20080229.215728.19767.1@webmail04.vgs.untd.com>


I thought some of you may be interested in this newsletter.

Please note: forwarded message attached


_____________________________________________________________
Click here to find travel and cruise franchise opportunities.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iihBsNKacEI2hejZAyhSmNW7Obc8tOs7RvP6ZYtiTvK91vmxm/

-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Michigan Technology News<brennan at mitechnews.com>
Subject: News For Entrepreneurs
Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:44:54 -0500
Size: 22141
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20080301/5781fdc9/attachment-0001.mht>

