From linux at ksimachine.com  Thu Nov  1 05:40:26 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 05:40:26 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.

Sorry.


From linux at ksimachine.com  Thu Nov  1 05:50:06 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 05:50:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <47294CEF.5070506@ameritech.net>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <47294CEF.5070506@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4729A14E.4080006@ksimachine.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Cool! What cpu and what kernel is it running? Is the resident OS on ROM?
> How much space?
>   
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

Yes the OS is on ROM.  "/" shows 5.9m free space on /dev/ram0.
/data shows 584k on /dev /mtdblock6.

I figure I can link most things to drive on the RAID volume and not use
much space on the root drive.

Other information is...

Login states "BusyBox v1.00-rc2 (2006.11.07-01:55+0000) Built-in shell
(ash)"

/var/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
cpu             : e300
revision        : 1.1 (pvr 8083 0011)
bogomips        : 265.21
chip            : MPC83xx
Vendor          : Freescale Inc.
Machine         : mpc83xx sys
core clock      : 399 MHz
bus  clock      : 266 MHz
PVR             : 0x80830011
SVR             : 0x80570011
PLL setting     : 0x6
Memory          : 128 MB

/var/meminfo
MemTotal:       126868 kB
MemFree:          6824 kB
Buffers:         58904 kB
Cached:          24232 kB
SwapCached:          0 kB
Active:          46236 kB
Inactive:        50228 kB
HighTotal:           0 kB
HighFree:            0 kB
LowTotal:       126868 kB
LowFree:          6824 kB
SwapTotal:           0 kB
SwapFree:            0 kB
Dirty:              20 kB
Writeback:           0 kB
Mapped:          21200 kB
Slab:            15028 kB
CommitLimit:     63432 kB
Committed_AS:    72224 kB
PageTables:        500 kB
VmallocTotal:   851968 kB
VmallocUsed:     19376 kB
VmallocChunk:   832280 kB

/var/version
Linux version 2.6.11SR1_1_2 (root at localhost.localdomain) (gcc version
3.4.1) #2 Tue Apr 3 15:43:13 CST 2007




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov  1 08:26:49 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:26:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs
	32bit	advantages	speedetc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193882290.4361.6.camel@aleph>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC80@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Adam Tauno Williams

> Ah, the rush to conspiracy.  Perhaps (a) it is a bug, or (b) a
> disagreement over the spec, or (c) they've encountered SSE/SSE2/SSE3
> implementations that don't work as reported so they err on the side of
> paranoia

 ...except Intel's never claimed (c), nor has anyone found any examples
of (c). As to (a), it appears the first iteration *was* a bug - programs
would *crash* on AMD chips instead of just running slower. The patches
produced by the third party show that (b) doesn't apply - altering the
compiler to remove just the "GenuineIntel" check does not impact anything
else, and "GenuineIntel" is *not* part of the SSE spec.

> And if it is (a) or (b) it may take a v-e-r-y long time to resolve;
> understandably so.

 Read the web page. The fixes are so simple they are in Perl scripts.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                            (313) 227-2317

 Novice electrician:
   Why should I waste time and money getting the right color wire?
   The electricity doesn't care.
 Experienced electrician:
   Electricity is color-blind.  Electricians are not.
                         -- unknown

 Novice programmer:
   Why should I waste time commenting code? The computer doesn't care.
 Experienced programmer:
   The computer is comment-blind.  Programmers are not.
                -- Dr. Robert J. Meier 1980
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  1 15:39:32 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (Matthew Krauss)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 15:39:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
Message-ID: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>

Hi all,

The company I just started with about a month ago for is hiring. I've
been very happy here so far, and I know there are always folk on the
list looking for work.  These are full-time positions, and ability and
drive are counted for more than work experience.

Original listings below.  If interested please reply to
GNXJobs at GMail.com.  If you have any questions for me, please ask
off-list.

Best regards to all,
Matthew

========================================

Explosive growth potential with this excellent job opportunity.

Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.

Candidate will be responsible for implementing new features, bug
fixes, and maintaining our existing code base as well as converting
the code to run on PHP 5 in our fully redundant high availability
clustered Linux environment.

Requirements
============
- Must have excellent problem solving skills
- Strong PHP 4 & 5 Programming experience
- Strong MySQL experience
- Strong knowledge of Javascript, HTML, XML, CSS, and DHTML.
- Healthy knowledge of Linux command line interface

Pluses
======
- Knowledge of version control systems (Subversion specifically)
- Knowledge of Linux system administration
- Knowledge of Apache administration & configuration
- Knowledge of MySQL administration & configuration
- Knowledge of SAN's and large enterprise computing infrastructures.
- Knowledge of clustered environments and creating high-availability services


PLEASE INCLUDE RESUME, CODE EXAMPLES, AND SALARY REQUIREMENTS.


*** 
NO RELOCATION.
SOUTH-EASTERN MICHIGAN RESIDENTS ONLY.
IN OFFICE POSITION/NO TELECOMMUTE.
NO OUT OF THE COUNTRY RESUMES.
NO CONTRACT/SUB-CONTRACT WORK.

========================================

Excellent job opportunity with explosive growth potential in the
Internet field.

Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
website developer/graphics designer to work on developing and
maintaining websites for the Adult Entertainment industry.

Candidates will be responsible for creating new websites from scratch,
as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.

Requirements
============
- Must have excellent problem solving skills.
- Strong HTML, XML, Javascript, CSS, and DHTML knowledge
- Understanding of how PHP works and ability to write HTML to work
  within a PHP template system.
- Ability to create professional looking, eye catching Graphics and
  Flash Animations.

Pluses
======
- Swish, Flex, and Actionscript knowledge
- XSLT & PHP Framework knowledge (Qcodo, Cake, CodeIgnitor, etc)
- Knowledge of version control systems (Subversion specifically)
- LAMP system knowledge
- Knowledge about providing high availability, redundant, failsafe
  services.


PLEASE INCLUDE RESUME, WEBSITE/GRAPHICS EXAMPLES, AND SALARY REQUIREMENTS.


***
NO RELOCATION. 
SOUTH-EASTERN MICHIGAN RESIDENTS ONLY. 
IN OFFICE POSITION/NO TELECOMMUTE. 
NO OUT OF THE COUNTRY RESUMES.
NO CONTRACT/SUB-CONTRACT WORK.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov  1 16:31:12 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:31:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Matthew Krauss

> as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.

 I can't resist saying... that sounds different when the employer is in
the "Adult Entertainment Industry". :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

  "Bill Gates is a monocle and a persian cat away from being
       a villain in a James Bond movie" - Dennis Miller
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Nov  1 17:35:10 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 17:35:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <4729A14E.4080006@ksimachine.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <47294CEF.5070506@ameritech.net>
	<4729A14E.4080006@ksimachine.com>
Message-ID: <472A468E.5010303@ameritech.net>

Joe St.Clair wrote:

<snip>
> Other information is...
<snip>
> /var/cpuinfo
<snip>
> /var/meminfo
<snip>
> /var/version
<snip>

Hmmm. Interesting that they use /var/ instead of /proc/.

Thanks for the run down!
Raymond McLaughlin


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 17:46:58 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 17:46:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] New Linux distro ;-)
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711011446w72aad0eetbe17178f364beea@mail.gmail.com>

This was posted to the PenguiCon list.  I felt... err... strangely
compelled to pass it on!

Cthulhubuntu!
<http://blog.wirelizard.ca/pivot/entry.php?id=42>

I guess Linux has its tentacles everywhere these days...

 ~~ Mikey


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Nov  1 22:14:14 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:14:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
	etc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>


On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:58 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: 
> >>> Has anyone run benchmarks on an identical system with 32 bit vrs 64 bit?
> 
> I haven't run "benchmarks", but I've run tests.  The plain and simple is
> that for the *vast* majority of workloads 64-bit offers no noticeable
> advantage, and usually a barely measurable difference.  I've even seen
> 64-bit run slower than 32-bit, especially if your application deals
> mostly with parsing and dealing with strings.
> 
> The real advantage of 64-bit is a larger address space,  which most apps
> just don't need.   It *might* be faster at some other things, like
> context switching, but not necessarily so, and it is going to depend on
> a myriad of other factors.
> 
> A good rule is to run 64-bit if you have an app that can effectively use
> a BIG address space, like PostgreSQL,  otherwise it probably isn't worth
> the bother until everything is 64-bit (since doing the
> this-is-32bit-that-is-64bit dance on a host is a pain).

Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.

Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN

Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
statement.

Best Regards,


-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Nov  1 22:35:55 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:35:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu 7.04 and Epson Scanner Success
In-Reply-To: <1192675748.30183.49.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1192675748.30183.49.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <1193970955.4386.12.camel@plumber.site>


On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 22:49 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> Hi,
> I finally got the scanner working Using Ubuntu! I used the directions
> here <http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=316961&highlight=scanner
> +epson> as well as looking up the vendor, product and usb id here
> <http://www.openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Anyone> and here
> <http://www.sane-project.org/cgi-bin/driver.pl?manu=&model=&bus=usb&v=&p=>. I edited /etc/udev/rules.d/45-libsane.rules manually to add my model. I had to reboot, restarting udev just didn't work. Presto, there it is!

	Okay, sort of. It appears that Ubuntu 7.04 cannot wake a sleeping
printer. Also, Xsane cannot find the scanner once it goes to sleep. I've
tried manually turning the printer off and then back on, logging off and
back on, and rebooting. Rebooting did it, but only until the printer
goes back to sleep??!! I switched printers, but that had no effect. I
tried my opensuse box and both worked fine. The new laptop finally got
here so opensuse it is!

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov  1 13:18:21 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:18:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>
	<47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>
Message-ID: <472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>

Joe St.Clair wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>>
>>
> 
> That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.
> 
> Sorry.

Bummer.

Maybe we can have a weekday-night meeting at
that site some time....





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov  1 22:44:18 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:44:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
 etc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>

Peter Bart wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:58 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: 
>>>>> Has anyone run benchmarks on an identical system with 32 bit vrs 64 bit?
>> I haven't run "benchmarks", but I've run tests.  The plain and simple is
>> that for the *vast* majority of workloads 64-bit offers no noticeable
>> advantage, and usually a barely measurable difference.  I've even seen
>> 64-bit run slower than 32-bit, especially if your application deals
>> mostly with parsing and dealing with strings.
>>
>> The real advantage of 64-bit is a larger address space,  which most apps
>> just don't need.   It *might* be faster at some other things, like
>> context switching, but not necessarily so, and it is going to depend on
>> a myriad of other factors.
>>
>> A good rule is to run 64-bit if you have an app that can effectively use
>> a BIG address space, like PostgreSQL,  otherwise it probably isn't worth
>> the bother until everything is 64-bit (since doing the
>> this-is-32bit-that-is-64bit dance on a host is a pain).
> 
> Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
> laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
> 
> Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
> o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
> ? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
> ? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN
> 
> Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> statement.

First, I'll give you my relevant familiarity with
this issue: in the commercial sector, I administrated
machines with 64-bit OS installs as far back as 10
years ago.  At that time, there were three options:

1) buy 32-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run 32-bit code.
or
2) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run ONLY 64-bit code.
or
3) buy 64-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run ONLY 32-bit code.

When AMD released the AMD-64 a couple years ago, a
fourth option became available:

4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
    both 32-bit and 64-bit code.

I *believe* that AMD is the only CPU manufacturer
with a product that provides option (4)  -- they
MIGHT have licensed the technology to Intel (if
needed for 2nd-source obligations to secure one
or more government contracts), or not -- I really
don't know for certain.

               =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Now, for todays Linux situation... even if your
hardware allows option (4):

A lot of web-browser plugins do not yet have
64-bit versions....and a 32-bit plugin WILL NOT
run properly in a 64-bit browser.  Many people
who have 64-bit installations are complaining
that they can't view Adobe Flash content, and
other similar problems.

                =-=-=-=-=-=-=

Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
extremely large database operations, etc) but has
not yet been completed in many areas.

Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
are capable of doing this), there are currently
a lot of problems still.

Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
were to go that route at this time.





From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Nov  1 23:04:17 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:04:17 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32	bit	advantages	speed
	etc.]
In-Reply-To: <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>  <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <1193972657.4386.20.camel@plumber.site>


On Thu, 2007-11-01 at 22:44 -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Peter Bart wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:58 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: 
> >>>>> Has anyone run benchmarks on an identical system with 32 bit vrs 64 bit?
<snip>
> > Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> > opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> > a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> > running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> > not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> > statement.
> 
> First, I'll give you my relevant familiarity with
> this issue
<snip>
>                =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

	I have no question as to your qualifications, your assesment is very
valued!

> Now, for todays Linux situation... even if your
> hardware allows option (4):
> 
> A lot of web-browser plugins do not yet have
> 64-bit versions....and a 32-bit plugin WILL NOT
> run properly in a 64-bit browser.  Many people
> who have 64-bit installations are complaining
> that they can't view Adobe Flash content, and
> other similar problems.
> 
>                 =-=-=-=-=-=-=
> 
> Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
> general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
> niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
> extremely large database operations, etc) but has
> not yet been completed in many areas.
> 
> Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
> in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
> are capable of doing this), there are currently
> a lot of problems still.
> 
> Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
> 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
> mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
> to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
> don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
> do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
> but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
> were to go that route at this time.

	Thank you very much for the insight. I'm very glad I asked!

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Nov  2 00:34:53 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:34:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
 etc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <472AA8ED.5060908@ameritech.net>

Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
> laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
> 
> Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
> o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
> ? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
> ? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN
> 
> Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> statement.

Congrats on the new rig!

Back in August I finally built myself a new Core2 Dual desktop machine,
demoting my 1.1 GHz PIII the rank of backup computer.

At first I ran the 32 bit version of SuSE 10.2. I was very pleased. Of
course it was much faster and quicker than the machine it had replaced.

After a couple of weeks I got brave and installed the 64 bit version on
an extra partition. Everything works just like on the 32 bit version.
But I can't say it was really worth the trouble. I've used it for two
months now, and it doesn't really seem quite as quick to open new
windows, etc, as I remember the 32 bit being. But that assessment could
also be colored by the newness of the machine at first.

So far I've stuck with the 64 bit mostly "because it's there", but for
my day to day use the difference hasn't really been worth the time spent
worrying about it.

My $0.02
Raymond McLaughlin


> Best Regards,
> 
> 



From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Nov  2 02:09:40 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 02:09:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711020207490.2295@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-01, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
>> From: Matthew Krauss
>> as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.
>
> I can't resist saying... that sounds different when the employer is in
> the "Adult Entertainment Industry". :->

And I can only imagine the "eye catching Graphics" the job requires
you to create...

Michael


From painbank at gmail.com  Fri Nov  2 07:13:43 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 07:13:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711020207490.2295@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711020207490.2295@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711020413x2f5aaa52s9a4c892481799f55@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, but if you can sell it in an overbooked, overabused industry, then your
skills are mighty young jedi master!

Rich


On 11/2/07, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> 2007-11-01, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
> >> From: Matthew Krauss
> >> as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.
> >
> > I can't resist saying... that sounds different when the employer is in
> > the "Adult Entertainment Industry". :->
>
> And I can only imagine the "eye catching Graphics" the job requires
> you to create...
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img src="
http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0" alt="The Pain Bank
- SCA and WMA"/></a>
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From millerc at cantonpl.org  Fri Nov  2 08:41:34 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:41:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
 etc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <59833.66.51.146.97.1194007294.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Peter Bart wrote:
> Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
> laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
>
> Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
> o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
> ? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
> ? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN
>
> Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> statement.

I've been installing SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and SLED
(SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop) on several workstations and servers.
I used the 64 bit version for a Core 2 Duo server, and had no problems
with 32/64 bit versions of software.  I read something about how SuSE
compiles their 32 bit software to run in a 32 bit environment with the
32 bit libraries, and this is all transparent to the user.  As long
as you install packages from the 64 bit repositories, I don't think
you'll see any problems.

I run VMware on that server and had no issues.  You can install
either a 32 bit or 64 bit OS inside a virtual host.

I'd say give opensuse a try and let us know how well it works.

c




From millerc at cantonpl.org  Fri Nov  2 08:44:09 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:44:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>
	<47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com> <472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <59871.66.51.146.97.1194007449.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Joe St.Clair wrote:
>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>>
>> That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.
>
> Bummer.

I wonder...would you be able to bring pictures and get remote
access?  That would be almost as good as having the actual
device at the meeting.  I'd definitely be interested in learning
more about what you've done.

c




From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Nov  2 08:42:28 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:42:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu 7.04 and Epson Scanner Success
In-Reply-To: <1193970955.4386.12.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <20071102124823.D57B01412E@impelind.com>

It's the little things like that, which turn me towards OpenSuSe than any
other distro on the market. (SuSe has always been really damn good about
things like that, especially laptop support.)

What do you think of their new "One-Click" install system?

If you run an Nvidia graphics card, what do you think of how OpenSuSe will
"reinstall" the driver for you when you do an official Kernel update? (I
fricken love that myself, the less fiddling around that I need to do, the
absolute better it is, in my opinion.)

-Rob

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Peter Bart
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:36 PM
> To: MDLUG's main mailing list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Ubuntu 7.04 and Epson Scanner Success
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 22:49 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I finally got the scanner working Using Ubuntu! I used the 
> directions 
> > here 
> > <http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=316961&highlight=scanner
> > +epson> as well as looking up the vendor, product and usb id here
> > <http://www.openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Anyone> and here 
> > 
> <http://www.sane-project.org/cgi-bin/driver.pl?manu=&model=&bu
> s=usb&v=&p=>. I edited /etc/udev/rules.d/45-libsane.rules 
> manually to add my model. I had to reboot, restarting udev 
> just didn't work. Presto, there it is!
> 
> 	Okay, sort of. It appears that Ubuntu 7.04 cannot wake 
> a sleeping printer. Also, Xsane cannot find the scanner once 
> it goes to sleep. I've tried manually turning the printer off 
> and then back on, logging off and back on, and rebooting. 
> Rebooting did it, but only until the printer goes back to 
> sleep??!! I switched printers, but that had no effect. I 
> tried my opensuse box and both worked fine. The new laptop 
> finally got here so opensuse it is!
> 
> Best Regards,
> --
> Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
> http://petertheplumber.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov  2 09:08:44 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:08:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] New Linux distro ;-)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711011446w72aad0eetbe17178f364beea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC84@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> Michael Rudas

> Cthulhubuntu!
> <http://blog.wirelizard.ca/pivot/entry.php?id=42>

 People who like that may enjoy this story:

 http://www.goldengryphon.com/Stross-Concrete.html

 Ties the RIAA, MPAA, and Cthulhu... sort of.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                      (313) 227-2317

 "By executive fiat, the Constitutional protections of American
  citizens are now officially contingent upon the whims of the
 President." - Tom Tomorrow, regarding the Bush administrations
  avowed plans to detain Jose Padilla without trial until 'the
              war against terrorism is over'...
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From carew at pobox.com  Fri Nov  2 09:56:27 2007
From: carew at pobox.com (Evan Carew)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:56:27 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>

Matthew Krauss wrote:

>========================================
>
>Explosive growth potential with this excellent job opportunity.
>
>Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
>full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
>maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>  
>
I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.

Evan


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Nov  2 09:59:10 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:59:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: OLPC at the Michigan User Group meeting Nov 13]
Message-ID: <472B2D2E.10803@ameritech.net>

  Our next MUG <www.mug.org> meeting is Tuesday, November 13, 2007

Download it, print it out PFD Announcement Flier
<http://www.mug.org/twiki/pub/Mugwiki/Meeting-20071113/mug_20071113.pdf>
and pass it out to everyone, your friends, coworkers, classmates,
facility in your local school district, community college, university,
EVERYONE. Also, notice we've become a member of the O'Reilly user group
program. The details of which will be forthcoming.


      Main Topic: One Laptop Per Child (OLPC)

*Ivan Krsti? - Director of Security Architecture for the OLPC project*

This month we have a fantastic opportunity to see what OLPC
<http://laptopfoundation.org/en/index.shtml> is all about from a member
of the OLPC team.

Ivan is a software architect and researcher currently on leave from
Harvard University. Prior to joining OLPC, he served as director of
research at the Medical Informatics Laboratory at Zagreb Children's
Hospital, developing software infrastructure for wide-scale digital
healthcare. He is deeply involved in open-source and free software,
notably as an administrator of the Ubuntu Server Team and co-author of
the best-selling Official Ubuntu Book, and specializes in architecture
and security of large distributed systems. He has consulted on both
matters for some of the largest websites on the Internet.

Ivan will share with us insights into the OLPC project that you just
can't get anywhere else. He's prepared to tell us about the technology,
security, science and anything else we want to know about the project.

Ivan is traveling from Cambridge, MA to Detroit specifically to be at
our meeting. This is our chance fill the auditorium and show Ivan how
strong the open source community is in south east Michigan.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have topics for future meetings you would like us to cover please
email the board <mailto:board at mug.org>, thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


      Where:

The MUG meetings are held at:

Farmington Community Library - Main Branch <http://www.farmlib.org>
32737 W. 12 Mile Rd.
Farmington Hills, MI 48334-3302

Click here
<http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&formtype=address&searchtype=address&cat=&address=32737%20W%2012%20Mile%20Rd&city=Farmington%20Hills&state=MI&zipcode=48334%2d3302&searchtab=home>
for a map of the area.


      When:

the meetings are on the 2nd Tuesday of each month.

6:00pm 	Doors open, registration 	     O'Reilly
<http://www.oreilly.com>
6:30pm 	Meeting starts, Mug business
6:45pm 	Main presentation
8:15pm 	2nd Presentation
8:45pm 	Meeting adjourns
9:00pm 	Dinner at a local establishment



From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Nov  2 11:01:31 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 11:01:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
> First, I'll give you my relevant familiarity with
> this issue: in the commercial sector, I administrated
> machines with 64-bit OS installs as far back as 10
> years ago.  At that time, there were three options:
> 
> 1) buy 32-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run 32-bit code.
> or
> 2) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run ONLY 64-bit code.
> or
> 3) buy 64-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run ONLY 32-bit code.
> 
> When AMD released the AMD-64 a couple years ago, a
> fourth option became available:
> 
> 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
>     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.
> 
> I *believe* that AMD is the only CPU manufacturer
> with a product that provides option (4)  -- they
> MIGHT have licensed the technology to Intel (if
> needed for 2nd-source obligations to secure one
> or more government contracts), or not -- I really
> don't know for certain.

Option 4 is a available on *some* Intel 64 bit processors.
My off the cuff recollection is that when Intel first entered the 64 bit
market their product, codenamed Itanic^h_um was a fresh new architecture
with no backwards compatibility, and thus unencumbered with concerns
about supporting legacy code.

Some what later (or about the same time) AMD introduced their Opteron
(codenamed sledgehammer) processor with it's 64 extension of the the x86
command set.

While Intel's Itanium processor, failed to gain traction in the market
AMD's Opteron, did catch on. After a year or so (??) Intel had to admit
that they had missed the mark in the high-end to mainstream market. They
made whatever licensing deal they had to and began making their own
chips with their own implementation of the 64 bit AMD command set. I
think this is why x86_64 binary packages are often labeled as AMD_64.

Having thus discussed what we think we remember, let us now read up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itanic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opteron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_64

(Last month I actually slogged through the wikipedia entries on the
entire x86 line of processors. This is the next logical step)

> 
>                =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> 
> Now, for todays Linux situation... even if your
> hardware allows option (4):
> 
> A lot of web-browser plugins do not yet have
> 64-bit versions....and a 32-bit plugin WILL NOT
> run properly in a 64-bit browser.  Many people
> who have 64-bit installations are complaining
> that they can't view Adobe Flash content, and
> other similar problems.

I looked into this specifically before I installed the 64 bit openSuSE.
I was satisfied that there were suitable work around befoe installing.
Afterwards I found that OpenSuSE handled it gracefully, I'm not sure
how, but it is the 64 bit firefox, and flash does work. Thanks to
Lorenzo Colitti and Philip Chee for flashblock!

> 
>                 =-=-=-=-=-=-=
> 
> Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
> general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
> niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
> extremely large database operations, etc) but has
> not yet been completed in many areas.
> 
> Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
> in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
> are capable of doing this), there are currently
> a lot of problems still.
> 
> Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
> 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
> mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
> to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
> don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
> do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
> but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
> were to go that route at this time.

I disagree with this assessment. I would have had more validity 18
months ago but the software has matured in that time, and of late you
would really need to go out of your way to buy a 32 bit machine, eg
closeouts and refurbs. Aguablu good enough for now, but also closer to
the end of its life cycle and support cycle.

And on a x86_64 machine you could install 32 bit everything and be
happy, or provided your distro carefully (I can vouch for openSuSE) you
can install 64 bit and be just as happy and arguably better off for
having made the transition.

Raymond McLaughlin




From painbank at gmail.com  Fri Nov  2 13:02:42 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:02:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711021002h26699e26xfbfed1fc91ad8ac2@mail.gmail.com>

Just tell her it is a Web 2.0 company and it is all the rage... or were
those Web 0.1 companies

On 11/2/07, Evan Carew <carew at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Matthew Krauss wrote:
>
> >========================================
> >
> >Explosive growth potential with this excellent job opportunity.
> >
> >Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> >full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
> >maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
> >
> >
> I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
> why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
>
> Evan
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img src="
http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0" alt="The Pain Bank
- SCA and WMA"/></a>
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From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  2 15:14:47 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:14:47 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <004901c81d84$a29e96d0$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

Here's a funny thought...

I wonder if you would get in trouble for surfing porn at work?   :-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matthew Krauss" <zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com>
To: <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 3:39 PM
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings


> Hi all,
>
> The company I just started with about a month ago for is hiring. I've
> been very happy here so far, and I know there are always folk on the
> list looking for work.  These are full-time positions, and ability and
> drive are counted for more than work experience.
>
> Original listings below.  If interested please reply to
> GNXJobs at GMail.com.  If you have any questions for me, please ask
> off-list.
>
> Best regards to all,
> Matthew
>
> ========================================
>
> Explosive growth potential with this excellent job opportunity.
>
> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>
> Candidate will be responsible for implementing new features, bug
> fixes, and maintaining our existing code base as well as converting
> the code to run on PHP 5 in our fully redundant high availability
> clustered Linux environment.
>
> Requirements
> ============
> - Must have excellent problem solving skills
> - Strong PHP 4 & 5 Programming experience
> - Strong MySQL experience
> - Strong knowledge of Javascript, HTML, XML, CSS, and DHTML.
> - Healthy knowledge of Linux command line interface
>
> Pluses
> ======
> - Knowledge of version control systems (Subversion specifically)
> - Knowledge of Linux system administration
> - Knowledge of Apache administration & configuration
> - Knowledge of MySQL administration & configuration
> - Knowledge of SAN's and large enterprise computing infrastructures.
> - Knowledge of clustered environments and creating high-availability 
> services
>
>
> PLEASE INCLUDE RESUME, CODE EXAMPLES, AND SALARY REQUIREMENTS.
>
>
> ***
> NO RELOCATION.
> SOUTH-EASTERN MICHIGAN RESIDENTS ONLY.
> IN OFFICE POSITION/NO TELECOMMUTE.
> NO OUT OF THE COUNTRY RESUMES.
> NO CONTRACT/SUB-CONTRACT WORK.
>
> ========================================
>
> Excellent job opportunity with explosive growth potential in the
> Internet field.
>
> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> website developer/graphics designer to work on developing and
> maintaining websites for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>
> Candidates will be responsible for creating new websites from scratch,
> as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.
>
> Requirements
> ============
> - Must have excellent problem solving skills.
> - Strong HTML, XML, Javascript, CSS, and DHTML knowledge
> - Understanding of how PHP works and ability to write HTML to work
>  within a PHP template system.
> - Ability to create professional looking, eye catching Graphics and
>  Flash Animations.
>
> Pluses
> ======
> - Swish, Flex, and Actionscript knowledge
> - XSLT & PHP Framework knowledge (Qcodo, Cake, CodeIgnitor, etc)
> - Knowledge of version control systems (Subversion specifically)
> - LAMP system knowledge
> - Knowledge about providing high availability, redundant, failsafe
>  services.
>
>
> PLEASE INCLUDE RESUME, WEBSITE/GRAPHICS EXAMPLES, AND SALARY REQUIREMENTS.
>
>
> ***
> NO RELOCATION.
> SOUTH-EASTERN MICHIGAN RESIDENTS ONLY.
> IN OFFICE POSITION/NO TELECOMMUTE.
> NO OUT OF THE COUNTRY RESUMES.
> NO CONTRACT/SUB-CONTRACT WORK.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 
> 11/1/2007 6:01 AM
>
> 



From linux at ksimachine.com  Fri Nov  2 15:24:44 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:24:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <472A468E.5010303@ameritech.net>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com>
	<47294CEF.5070506@ameritech.net>	<4729A14E.4080006@ksimachine.com>
	<472A468E.5010303@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <472B797C.9040007@ksimachine.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Joe St.Clair wrote:
>
> <snip>
>   
>> Other information is...
>>     
> <snip>
>   
>> /var/cpuinfo
>>     
> <snip>
>   
>> /var/meminfo
>>     
> <snip>
>   
>> /var/version
>>     
> <snip>
>
> Hmmm. Interesting that they use /var/ instead of /proc/.
>
> Thanks for the run down!
> Raymond McLaughlin
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

When I was coping from my SecureCRT window into the email I miss-typed
the /var/.
It is actually /proc/.

Sorry for the mistake.

Joe
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From linux at ksimachine.com  Fri Nov  2 15:31:33 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:31:33 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com>
	<4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>	<47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>
	<472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <472B7B15.10104@ksimachine.com>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Joe St.Clair wrote:
>   
>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>     
>>> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.
>>
>> Sorry.
>>     
>
> Bummer.
>
> Maybe we can have a weekday-night meeting at
> that site some time....
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   
Being the unit is in a production environment, inside a manufacturing
facility, I could not get permission for this.
I am wanting to get a duplicate system so I can setup NAS replication. 
Maybe it would be possible to do something with
it prior to putting it into service.  I don't know when this would
happen as there are other more pressing things ahead
of this, but when it comes up I will let the list know.

Joe
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From linux at ksimachine.com  Fri Nov  2 15:40:14 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:40:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <59871.66.51.146.97.1194007449.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com>
	<4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>	<47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>
	<472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
	<59871.66.51.146.97.1194007449.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <472B7D1E.8070909@ksimachine.com>

Carl T. Miller wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>   
>> Joe St.Clair wrote:
>>     
>>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>>>>         
>>> That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.
>>>       
>> Bummer.
>>     
>
> I wonder...would you be able to bring pictures and get remote
> access?  That would be almost as good as having the actual
> device at the meeting.  I'd definitely be interested in learning
> more about what you've done.
>
> c
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   
Remote access is absolutely out.  The box has no firewall and is
expected to be run from within a secure environment.
If anything happened....

You could see what the unit looks like at
http://www.promise.com/upload/product/nsbig.jpg

I would be more than happy (time permitting) to give out as much info as
possible what I have done so far.

I will try to put together and post it later.

Joe
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From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Nov  2 17:07:03 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:07:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
> Matthew Krauss wrote:
>> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
>> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
>> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>>
> I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
> why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.

Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
Not the wisest career move, IMO.

Michael


From gib at juno.com  Fri Nov  2 20:57:10 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 00:57:10 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed etc. - not
	supp	orted flash
Message-ID: <20071102.205710.23414.1@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>


Peter, I had a problem just today trying to install Adobe flash player on my 64 bit.  Guess I need to find another install options. The install says:

ERROR: Your architecture, \'x86_64\', is not supported by the
       Adobe Flash Player installer.


-- Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net> wrote:

On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:58 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: 
<snip>

Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
<snip>
Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
statement.

Best Regards,


-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on detox treatments for drug &amp; alcohol dependency.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifb8D3IEhnJaeaUVThFDnNd6RNDWMxyYDB0ZeTxmJqwbbXTG/




From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  3 00:24:49 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 00:24:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071103002449.7c50c87f@tessa.long>

On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:31:12 -0400
"Ingles, Raymond" <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:

> > From: Matthew Krauss
> 
> > as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.
> 
>  I can't resist saying... that sounds different when the employer is
> in the "Adult Entertainment Industry". :->

Cute :) I thought I had already spotted all the obvious humor...


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  3 00:38:36 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 00:38:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20071103003836.0adc944b@tessa.long>

On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:07:03 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
> > Matthew Krauss wrote:
> >> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> >> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
> >> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
> >>
> > I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife
> > explaining why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
> 
> Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
> that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
> Not the wisest career move, IMO.

Do you think it's necessary to say that on a resume?

There's been some kidding and that's great, we kid about it at the
office, but I also see some looking-down here, which kind of surprises
me.

This is a serious business. I had my doubts at first, but they are
really great, friendly people, who know what they are doing.  The
business is web development, design and hosting on the high end -
the "adult entertainment" angle is a starting point.

Disclaimer: I intended to just post the jobs and have nothing more to do
with it. It's not my intention to try to convince anyone of anything,
just to help connect people who I know are smart and driven to an
employer who needs them.

Best regards,
Matthew


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Nov  3 10:25:50 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 10:25:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32	bit	advantages	speed
	etc.]
In-Reply-To: <472AA8ED.5060908@ameritech.net>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site> <472AA8ED.5060908@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1194099950.4386.36.camel@plumber.site>


On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 00:34 -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Peter Bart wrote:
> > 
> > Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
> > laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
> > 
> > Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
> > o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
> > ? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
> > ? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN
> > 
> > Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> > opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> > a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> > running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> > not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> > statement.
> 
> Congrats on the new rig!


Thank you! I will be using opensuse. I'll post my results and
experiences. I'm not so sure I'll be able to give this up when I'm done
with it ;-) That 17"display is gorgeous, it's a lot lighter than I
thought it would be. It'll be hard to look at that every day but she'll
be happy!


> 
> Back in August I finally built myself a new Core2 Dual desktop machine,
> demoting my 1.1 GHz PIII the rank of backup computer.
> 
> At first I ran the 32 bit version of SuSE 10.2. I was very pleased. Of
> course it was much faster and quicker than the machine it had replaced.
> 
> After a couple of weeks I got brave and installed the 64 bit version on
> an extra partition. Everything works just like on the 32 bit version.
> But I can't say it was really worth the trouble. I've used it for two
> months now, and it doesn't really seem quite as quick to open new
> windows, etc, as I remember the 32 bit being. But that assessment could
> also be colored by the newness of the machine at first.
> 
> So far I've stuck with the 64 bit mostly "because it's there", but for
> my day to day use the difference hasn't really been worth the time spent
> worrying about it.

	Thanks to all who have offered advice and their experiences.

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Nov  3 10:36:09 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 10:36:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu 7.04 and Epson Scanner Success
In-Reply-To: <20071102124823.D57B01412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071102124823.D57B01412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <1194100569.4386.47.camel@plumber.site>


On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 08:42 -0400, Robert Adkins wrote:
> It's the little things like that, which turn me towards OpenSuSe than any
> other distro on the market. (SuSe has always been really damn good about
> things like that, especially laptop support.)

	Yes, opensuse has been real good at these things. Printer and scanner
working aren't such small things  to me when I have to take time to try
and make it work. The other night when my step daughter had to print a
report; when I found out about it, try to email it (aol is way to slow
to send from and she doesn't want or use a client), burn it to disk,
take it to my box and then print it. Not something I want to do at
2200 ;-)


> 
> What do you think of their new "One-Click" install system?


	lol, yes now that I've figured out and gotten used to using
repositories! maemo.org is using the same thing on most of the programs
listed. It's great!


> 
> If you run an Nvidia graphics card, what do you think of how OpenSuSe will
> "reinstall" the driver for you when you do an official Kernel update? (I
> fricken love that myself, the less fiddling around that I need to do, the
> absolute better it is, in my opinion.)


	I still don't have a Nvidia card so I can't comment. Sounds great
though. Things like this really put the finishing touches on a distro!

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Fri Nov  2 20:30:36 2007
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 20:30:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Friday 02 November 2007, Michael Corral wrote:
> 2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
> > Matthew Krauss wrote:
> >> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> >> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
> >> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
> >
> > I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
> > why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
>
> Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
> that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
> Not the wisest career move, IMO.

I seriously doubt it would be an issue. Size (webfarm size that is) is what 
matters and technology, not the mission of the employer. If anything its as 
likely to help as hurt, as it would make for some amusing banter during the 
interview.

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Mon Nov  5 00:44:07 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 00:44:07 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <472EADA7.5020307@arb.net>



Brian Hurley wrote:

>On Friday 02 November 2007, Michael Corral wrote:
>  
>
>>2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
>>    
>>
>>>Matthew Krauss wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
>>>>full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
>>>>maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
>>>why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
>>>      
>>>
>>Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
>>that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
>>Not the wisest career move, IMO.
>>    
>>
>
>I seriously doubt it would be an issue. Size (webfarm size that is) is what 
>matters and technology, not the mission of the employer. If anything its as 
>likely to help as hurt, as it would make for some amusing banter during the 
>interview.
>
>  
>
As the _only_ industry to consistently earn money on the net for more 
than a decade, how could it hurt your career ? They have pioneered many 
web technologies for making legal money on the net. IMHO.

-dave
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From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov  5 08:44:16 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:44:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <20071103003836.0adc944b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: M. D. Krauss

> There's been some kidding and that's great, we kid about it at the
> office, but I also see some looking-down here, which kind of surprises
> me.
> 
> This is a serious business. I had my doubts at first, but they are
> really great, friendly people, who know what they are doing.  The
> business is web development, design and hosting on the high end -
> the "adult entertainment" angle is a starting point.

 As the person who started the kidding here, I have to say I agree.
No need to be snide. I'm minded of the Heinlein quote discussing
"professionals offering services for pay". Google for it...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317

 [Senator Tom Delay is soliciting donations for a "children's charity"
 as a cover for raising money for the GOP. It seems that] part of the
  money would go to pay for late-night convention parties, a luxury
  suite during President Bush's speech at Madison Square Garden and
         yacht cruises. - New York Times, November 14th, 2003
        http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/14/politics/14DELA.html
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Mon Nov  5 10:12:06 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:12:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <472F32C6.9080307@arb.net>

I asked several times if they needed a security professional, but never 
got a reply...  Most people would at least reply.

-dave

Ingles, Raymond wrote:

>>From: M. D. Krauss
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>There's been some kidding and that's great, we kid about it at the
>>office, but I also see some looking-down here, which kind of surprises
>>me.
>>
>>This is a serious business. I had my doubts at first, but they are
>>really great, friendly people, who know what they are doing.  The
>>business is web development, design and hosting on the high end -
>>the "adult entertainment" angle is a starting point.
>>    
>>
>
> As the person who started the kidding here, I have to say I agree.
>No need to be snide. I'm minded of the Heinlein quote discussing
>"professionals offering services for pay". Google for it...
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317
>
> [Senator Tom Delay is soliciting donations for a "children's charity"
> as a cover for raising money for the GOP. It seems that] part of the
>  money would go to pay for late-night convention parties, a luxury
>  suite during President Bush's speech at Madison Square Garden and
>         yacht cruises. - New York Times, November 14th, 2003
>        http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/14/politics/14DELA.html
>The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>
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From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Nov  5 12:08:58 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:08:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <472F4E2A.3090208@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  As the person who started the kidding here, I have to say I agree.
> No need to be snide. I'm minded of the Heinlein quote discussing
> "professionals offering services for pay". Google for it...
>
>   

        "A whore should be judged by the same criteria as other
professionals offering services for pay -- such as dentists, lawyers,
hairdressers, physicians, plumbers, etc. Is she professionally
competent? Does she give good measure? Is she honest with her clients?
        It is possible that the percentage of honest and competent
whores is higher than that of plumbers and much higher than that of
lawyers. And enormously higher than that of professors."  -- R.A.
Heinlein; The Notebooks of Lazarus Long.

This writer comments that IT professionals had yet to be invented at the
time of the above comment.  :)

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Nov  5 15:46:57 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:46:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711051531300.2116@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-02, Monsieur Brian Hurley a ecrit:
> On Friday 02 November 2007, Michael Corral wrote:
>> 2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
>>> Matthew Krauss wrote:
>>>> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
>>>> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
>>>> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>>>
>>> I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
>>> why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
>>
>> Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
>> that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
>> Not the wisest career move, IMO.
>
> I seriously doubt it would be an issue. Size (webfarm size that is) is what
> matters and technology, not the mission of the employer.

If you seriously believe that, then all I can say is that you are
very naive. Here in the real world, it can definitely matter.

> If anything its as
> likely to help as hurt, as it would make for some amusing banter during the
> interview.

Yeah, human trafficking and prostitution...that's funny stuff. @_@

The "adult entertainment", i.e. porn, industry is run by some slimy
people who get a lot of their "workers" by kidnapping young girls
from other countries, drugging them up, then forcing them into both
prostitution and pornography, oops, I mean "adult entertainment".
There are also a lot of runaways from right here in the U.S. who
get trapped into the same situation. It's a grim "business".

But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees
aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.

Michael


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Mon Nov  5 19:04:14 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:04:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711051531300.2116@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711051531300.2116@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <472FAF7E.5080204@gmail.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> Yeah, human trafficking and prostitution...that's funny stuff. @_@
>
> The "adult entertainment", i.e. porn, industry is run by some slimy
> people who get a lot of their "workers" by kidnapping young girls
> from other countries, drugging them up, then forcing them into both
> prostitution and pornography, oops, I mean "adult entertainment".
> There are also a lot of runaways from right here in the U.S. who
> get trapped into the same situation. It's a grim "business".
>
> But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees
> aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.
>
> Michael
At least it's more honest than government.


From treii28 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  5 20:21:11 2007
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:21:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
Message-ID: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> Yeah, human trafficking and prostitution...that's funny stuff. @_@
>
> The "adult entertainment", i.e. porn, industry is run by some slimy
> people who get a lot of their "workers" by kidnapping young girls
> from other countries, drugging them up, then forcing them into both
> prostitution and pornography, oops, I mean "adult entertainment".
> There are also a lot of runaways from right here in the U.S. who
> get trapped into the same situation. It's a grim "business".
>
> But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees
> aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.

I've actually worked on some logistics for someone that was doing a 'adult entertainment' website.  (installing and networking some webcams basically).  Although it was a small enough job that I didn't list it on my resume, I learned enough to know that some very profitable websites are run by individuals who simply don't have the same hang-ups over their sexuality as the rest of the conservative types in the general population.
If you want to get technical, a good number of 'adult entertainment' websites don't use 'workers' at all but simply plagiarize photos they have collected from other sources and sell access to them for profit.
But if you also want to get technical, many so called 'legitimate' business have been seen to have equally repulsive business practices over the years, whether it is conveniently overlooking the use of child labor or sweat shops in third world countries when the bottom line generates a greater profit margin, leaving environmental calamities in their wake or having a few CEO's run away with company profits in mass scams.  (anyone remember worldcom?)
Makes me wonder how many interviewers and hiring committees remain abreast of those kinds of issues or condemn everyone that may have ever worked in an associated industry to the same standards as the crooks or other unethical types that perpetrated them?

SW



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov  6 08:02:52 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:02:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071106130856.6FE5B1412E@impelind.com>

> >
> > But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees 
> > aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.
> 
> I've actually worked on some logistics for someone that was 
> doing a 'adult entertainment' website.  (installing and 
> networking some webcams basically).  Although it was a small 
> enough job that I didn't list it on my resume, I learned 
> enough to know that some very profitable websites are run by 
> individuals who simply don't have the same hang-ups over 
> their sexuality as the rest of the conservative types in the 
> general population.
> If you want to get technical, a good number of 'adult 
> entertainment' websites don't use 'workers' at all but simply 
> plagiarize photos they have collected from other sources and 
> sell access to them for profit.
> But if you also want to get technical, many so called 
> 'legitimate' business have been seen to have equally 
> repulsive business practices over the years, whether it is 
> conveniently overlooking the use of child labor or sweat 
> shops in third world countries when the bottom line generates 
> a greater profit margin, leaving environmental calamities in 
> their wake or having a few CEO's run away with company 
> profits in mass scams.  (anyone remember worldcom?) Makes me 
> wonder how many interviewers and hiring committees remain 
> abreast of those kinds of issues or condemn everyone that may 
> have ever worked in an associated industry to the same 
> standards as the crooks or other unethical types that 
> perpetrated them?
> 

	They won't and the simple reason is that "the real world" everyone
keeps quoting deals heavily in something called "Double Standards".

	-Rob



From mdlug2 at arb.net  Tue Nov  6 12:49:59 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:49:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4730A947.8000306@arb.net>



Scott Webster Wood wrote:

>Michael Corral wrote:
>  
>
>>Yeah, human trafficking and prostitution...that's funny stuff. @_@
>>
>>The "adult entertainment", i.e. porn, industry is run by some slimy
>>people who get a lot of their "workers" by kidnapping young girls
>>from other countries, drugging them up, then forcing them into both
>>prostitution and pornography, oops, I mean "adult entertainment".
>>There are also a lot of runaways from right here in the U.S. who
>>get trapped into the same situation. It's a grim "business".
>>
>>But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees
>>aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.
>>    
>>
>
>I've actually worked on some logistics for someone that was doing a 'adult entertainment' website.  (installing and networking some webcams basically).  Although it was a small enough job that I didn't list it on my resume, I learned enough to know that some very profitable websites are run by individuals who simply don't have the same hang-ups over their sexuality as the rest of the conservative types in the general population.
>If you want to get technical, a good number of 'adult entertainment' websites don't use 'workers' at all but simply plagiarize photos they have collected from other sources and sell access to them for profit.
>But if you also want to get technical, many so called 'legitimate' business have been seen to have equally repulsive business practices over the years, whether it is conveniently overlooking the use of child labor or sweat shops in third world countries when the bottom line generates a greater profit margin, leaving environmental calamities in their wake or having a few CEO's run away with company profits in mass scams.  (anyone remember worldcom?)
>Makes me wonder how many interviewers and hiring committees remain abreast of those kinds of issues or condemn everyone that may have ever worked in an associated industry to the same standards as the crooks or other unethical types that perpetrated them?
>
>SW
>
When we buy something "made in China" we are ALWAYS paying most if not 
all of the "cheap labor" component of the product to the government 
owned factory that is fueling the destruction of their ecology and 
funding their nuclear arms race with us....  NPR had an interesting 
segment on it last week (arms race). It is the same government Chairman 
Mao started and the one guilty of killing more millions of its own 
people than any in all of history. But hey, it is out of our sight and 
most Americans morals are tied so closely to the dollar.

-dave

PS - a couple years ago I wanted to buy a non-stick fry pan made in 
USA.  China-mart didn't have any - 70% by dollar of their product is 
made in China. Meijer actually had a selection including made in USA...  
The funny thing is, the locally made pans were of higher quality and $2 
cheaper than those at Wal-mart, or the Chinese made pans at Meijer. So 
much for "Cheap labor".  No, we don't have morals here for industry, 
adult or others.
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From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov  6 17:19:55 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen majorovic)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:19:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <4730A947.8000306@arb.net>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>
Message-ID: <4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> When we buy something "made in China" we are ALWAYS paying most if not 
> all of the "cheap labor" component of the product to the government 
> owned factory that is fueling the destruction of their ecology and 
> funding their nuclear arms race with us....  NPR had an interesting 
> segment on it last week (arms race). It is the same government 
> Chairman Mao started and the one guilty of killing more millions of 
> its own people than any in all of history. But hey, it is out of our 
> sight and most Americans morals are tied so closely to the dollar.
>
> -dave
>
> PS - a couple years ago I wanted to buy a non-stick fry pan made in 
> USA.  China-mart didn't have any - 70% by dollar of their product is 
> made in China. Meijer actually had a selection including made in 
> USA...  The funny thing is, the locally made pans were of higher 
> quality and $2 cheaper than those at Wal-mart, or the Chinese made 
> pans at Meijer. So much for "Cheap labor".  No, we don't have morals 
> here for industry, adult or others.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

So when does it become morally acceptable to buy Chinese goods?

Allen


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Tue Nov  6 19:40:07 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:40:07 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>
	<4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <47310967.8030505@arb.net>



allen majorovic wrote:

>Dave Arbogast wrote:
>  
>
>>When we buy something "made in China" we are ALWAYS paying most if not 
>>all of the "cheap labor" component of the product to the government 
>>owned factory that is fueling the destruction of their ecology and 
>>funding their nuclear arms race with us....  NPR had an interesting 
>>segment on it last week (arms race). It is the same government 
>>Chairman Mao started and the one guilty of killing more millions of 
>>its own people than any in all of history. But hey, it is out of our 
>>sight and most Americans morals are tied so closely to the dollar.
>>
>>-dave
>>
>>PS - a couple years ago I wanted to buy a non-stick fry pan made in 
>>USA.  China-mart didn't have any - 70% by dollar of their product is 
>>made in China. Meijer actually had a selection including made in 
>>USA...  The funny thing is, the locally made pans were of higher 
>>quality and $2 cheaper than those at Wal-mart, or the Chinese made 
>>pans at Meijer. So much for "Cheap labor".  No, we don't have morals 
>>here for industry, adult or others.
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>    
>>
>
>So when does it become morally acceptable to buy Chinese goods?
>
>Allen
>
If your moral compass has no problem buying Chinese made goods, you 
should have no moral problem buying porn. Otherwise, I would think as 
soon as they have another revolution and the people are not killed or 
imprisoned for their views, forced to work in Western sweat shops, etc.  
The basic human rights issues that some have voiced concern about the 
porn industry exist several orders of magnitude greater in China.

-dave

-dave
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From jcbender at bendorius.com  Wed Nov  7 07:36:50 2007
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:36:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <47310967.8030505@arb.net>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>	<4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
	<47310967.8030505@arb.net>
Message-ID: <4731B162.50609@bendorius.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
> 
> allen majorovic wrote:
>>
>> So when does it become morally acceptable to buy Chinese goods?
>>
>> Allen
> If your moral compass has no problem buying Chinese made goods, you 
> should have no moral problem buying porn. Otherwise, I would think as 
> soon as they have another revolution and the people are not killed or 
> imprisoned for their views, forced to work in Western sweat shops, etc.  
> The basic human rights issues that some have voiced concern about the 
> porn industry exist several orders of magnitude greater in China.
> 

	What does this have to do with Linux, exactly?  Take this slapfight 
elsewhere, please.  My mailbox thanks you in advance.




-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Nov  7 08:41:01 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 08:41:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <4731B162.50609@bendorius.com>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>	<4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>	<47310967.8030505@arb.net>
	<4731B162.50609@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <4731C06D.3060803@ameritech.net>

Joseph C. Bender wrote:

>> ... human rights issues that some have voiced concern about the 
>> porn industry exist several orders of magnitude greater in China.
>>
> 
> 	What does this have to do with Linux, exactly?  Take this slapfight 
> elsewhere, please.  My mailbox thanks you in advance.

For your convenience MDLUG provides an "elsewhere called the "-discuss"
list.



From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Nov  7 20:15:31 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:15:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's mail bag
Message-ID: <47326333.3050508@ameritech.net>


Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:43:20 -0500
From: Kevin Cassidy <kcassidy at vailsys.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071022)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: president at mdlug.org
Subject: Southfield UNIX Job for a MDLUG Member
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at www.mdlug.org

Raymond,

I'm going to be moving to Chicago to take a new position with my company
and need to find someone in the Southfield area to take over for me. I
was wondering if you might be willing to share a link to the posting
with your group, possibly via your mailing list? I asked the same
question in your IRC channel and it was recommended that I contact you.
We're very much a UNIX company and I thought this might be a good
opportunity for someone in your group looking for an entry level IT
position.

There's no need to include my contact information in the email, in fact
I'm not even the person who will be handling the applications. The
applicant can simply submit a resume as instructed in the job posting.

http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&dockey=xml/7/5/757448b293a530bc2fafabc783fab394 at endecaindex&source=19&FREE_TEXT=vail+systems

Thanks for you time,

Kevin Cassidy
Vail Systems, Inc.



From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Nov  8 14:52:21 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:52:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] FWD: Job posting
Message-ID: <473368F5.7080503@ameritech.net>

>From another list:

> > I'm looking for an embedded Linux guru to do a 6-12 month consulting
gig in
> > Rochester NY.
> >
> > Experience in any or all of battery-powered portable devices, PCI
drivers,
> > and 802.11 wireless would be a plus.
> >
> > Anybody interested in learning more, email me off the list: bear at di.org.
> > Serious discussion will require an NDA.
> >
> > Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who may be looking
for such
> > a gig.

  The contacts real name is John Hall.

  Clif

--
.... Clif Flynt ... http://www.cflynt.com ... clif at cflynt.com ...
.. Tcl/Tk: A Developer's Guide (2nd edition) - Morgan Kauffman ..
.. 15'th Annual Tcl/Tk Conference:  Oct 2008,  Philadelphia, PA..
.............  http://www.tcl.tk/community/tcl2008/  ............
--
***  Sent from linux-users at lugwash.org  ***  http://www.lugwash.org
to unsubscribe: `echo "unsubscribe" | mail linux-users-request at lugwash.org`



From MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com  Thu Nov  8 20:12:04 2007
From: MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com (Michael David)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:12:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SGI Octane
Message-ID: <4733B3E4.8070204@wideopenwest.com>

Would any one have a spare power supply for a SGI Octane? If not, would 
any one know of a good CHEAP place to get one?

P/N 060-0038-001

Thanks,
Mike


From ldaphelp at thuemmel.com  Thu Nov  8 22:07:59 2007
From: ldaphelp at thuemmel.com (Mark Thuemmel)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:07:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SGI Octane
In-Reply-To: <4733B3E4.8070204@wideopenwest.com>
References: <4733B3E4.8070204@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <4733CF0F.5090801@thuemmel.com>

Michael David wrote:
> Would any one have a spare power supply for a SGI Octane? If not, would 
> any one know of a good CHEAP place to get one?
> 
> P/N 060-0038-001
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike

how about $115 on ebay?  Google the part#, pick more->products then sort
by price.

copy the big harry url to clipboard and visit www.tinyurl.com to make it
easy for eavyone......



http://tinyurl.com/27auau


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 22:44:03 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:44:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <472F32C6.9080307@arb.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<472F32C6.9080307@arb.net>
Message-ID: <20071108224403.1e4e2344@tessa.long>

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:12:06 -0500
Dave Arbogast <mdlug2 at arb.net> wrote:

> I asked several times if they needed a security professional, but
> never got a reply...  Most people would at least reply.

Sorry, Dave - this is entirely my fault.  You wrote to my personal
address and I had a problem with my email and didn't have time to
fix it all week. I will reply to your question off list right now.

Best regards,
Matthew


From treii28 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 23:31:33 2007
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:31:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] FWD: Job posting
Message-ID: <121600.94411.qm@web38015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



----- Original Message ----
Subject: [mdlug] FWD: Job posting


>From another list:

> > Experience in any or all of battery-powered portable devices,

I thought for a second this was part of the ongoing thread about the job in the 'adult entertainment' industry and for some reason those words just popped right out at me... lol

SW



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From gib at juno.com  Fri Nov  9 07:48:35 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:48:35 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] SGI Octane
Message-ID: <20071109.074835.19662.1@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>

 
Radio Shack.

-- Michael David <MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com> wrote:
Would any one have a spare power supply for a SGI Octane? If not, would 
any one know of a good CHEAP place to get one?

P/N 060-0038-001

Thanks,
Mike
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Click now to choose from thousands of designs for your checks!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifWifkTUeMlYWYoXzeXtE6rQKk6UXa8W28xaq52wCjERRYTS/
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  9 10:33:32 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:33:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Upgrade from suse 10.1 --> Opensuse 10.3
Message-ID: <672354.99132.qm@web37905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just upgraded from Suse 10.1 to OpenSUSE 10.3.

The only glitch was it froze on a few packages that I wont use.  I'm hoping the move will allow for better printing options and use of resources like blue tooth, phone & PDA synking, and playing dvd movies.  

David C. Lane



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
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From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov  9 11:45:25 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:45:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com> <472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20071109164525.GA30442@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 11:01:31AM -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
[aaron kulkis quoted too]

> > 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
> >     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.

> Option 4 is a available on *some* Intel 64 bit processors.

Any 64-bit intel CPU you'd buy in a "PC" would qualify.  You'd have
to go way out of your way and pay a lot more money to buy an Itanium.

Core 2 Duos are 64-bit; "Core" (what you might think of as "core 1")
CPUs are not.

There are 64-bit versions of the pentium 4 & celeron, as well as
Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.  some of the older p4-based
Xeons.  Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.

The relevant intel marketing word is "EM64T".

> My off the cuff recollection is that when Intel first entered the 64 bit
> market their product, codenamed Itanic^h_um was a fresh new architecture
> with no backwards compatibility, and thus unencumbered with concerns
> about supporting legacy code.

It is not compatible with x86 but it might be with HP PA-RISC.  Not sure;
but the architecture comes out of work done originally at HP and it was
certainly the market successor to PA-RISC.

A relevant intel marketing word for Itanium is "IA64".

> > Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
> > general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
> > niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
> > extremely large database operations, etc) but has
> > not yet been completed in many areas.
> > 
> > Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
> > in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
> > are capable of doing this), there are currently
> > a lot of problems still.
> > 
> > Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
> > 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
> > mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
> > to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
> > don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
> > do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
> > but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
> > were to go that route at this time.
> 
> I disagree with this assessment. I would have had more validity 18
> months ago but the software has matured in that time, and of late you
> would really need to go out of your way to buy a 32 bit machine, eg
> closeouts and refurbs. Aguablu good enough for now, but also closer to
> the end of its life cycle and support cycle.
> 
> And on a x86_64 machine you could install 32 bit everything and be
> happy, or provided your distro carefully (I can vouch for openSuSE) you
> can install 64 bit and be just as happy and arguably better off for
> having made the transition.

Red Hat supposedly does a good job of including 32-bit compatibility
libraries too (I know I install lots of compatibility libs on my
servers but i generally run native 64-bit code).  I think windows
does OK too but I'm sure there are exceptions.

There are a few other enhancements that were made in the AMD64
architecture that can help beyond the extra address space.  The one
that comes to mind is that they doubled the number of CPU registers;
i've read that x86 is "generally felt to be a register-starved
architecture" so this could be a help.  Certainly for many benchmarks
it doesn't seem to matter.  However, this supposedly helps Java
performance a lot, and maybe better compilers will help in teh future?

Personally, I'm with Aaron - for the desktop I wouldn't bother with
a 64-bit OS today, unless i had need & budget for huge amounts of
memory (photoshop or video editing come to mind).  

But of course Raymond is right, there's not much choice other than
to buy 64-bit CPUs.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov  9 11:51:26 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:51:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
	etc.]
In-Reply-To: <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20071109165126.GB30442@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Thu, Nov 01, 2007 at 10:44:18PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> First, I'll give you my relevant familiarity with
> this issue: in the commercial sector, I administrated
> machines with 64-bit OS installs as far back as 10
> years ago.  At that time, there were three options:
> 
> 1) buy 32-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run 32-bit code.
> or
> 2) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run ONLY 64-bit code.
> or
> 3) buy 64-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run ONLY 32-bit code.
> 
> When AMD released the AMD-64 a couple years ago, a
> fourth option became available:
> 
> 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
>     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.

You could do this on UltraSPARCs as of Solaris 7.
Not all binaries worked in 64-bit mode but compatibility
was pretty good.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  9 12:43:45 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:43:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
Message-ID: <684824.95623.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well I'm there I will let you all know how it is going.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Dan Pritts <danno at umich.edu>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, November 9, 2007 11:45:25 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.


On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 11:01:31AM -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
[aaron kulkis quoted too]

> > 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
> >     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.

> Option 4 is a available on *some* Intel 64 bit processors.

Any 64-bit intel CPU you'd buy in a "PC" would qualify.  You'd have
to go way out of your way and pay a lot more money to buy an Itanium.

Core 2 Duos are 64-bit; "Core" (what you might think of as "core 1")
CPUs are not.

There are 64-bit versions of the pentium 4 & celeron, as well as
Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.  some of the older p4-based
Xeons.  Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.

The relevant intel marketing word is "EM64T".

> My off the cuff recollection is that when Intel first entered the 64
 bit
> market their product, codenamed Itanic^h_um was a fresh new
 architecture
> with no backwards compatibility, and thus unencumbered with concerns
> about supporting legacy code.

It is not compatible with x86 but it might be with HP PA-RISC.  Not
 sure;
but the architecture comes out of work done originally at HP and it was
certainly the market successor to PA-RISC.

A relevant intel marketing word for Itanium is "IA64".

> > Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
> > general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
> > niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
> > extremely large database operations, etc) but has
> > not yet been completed in many areas.
> > 
> > Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
> > in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
> > are capable of doing this), there are currently
> > a lot of problems still.
> > 
> > Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
> > 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
> > mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
> > to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
> > don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
> > do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
> > but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
> > were to go that route at this time.
> 
> I disagree with this assessment. I would have had more validity 18
> months ago but the software has matured in that time, and of late you
> would really need to go out of your way to buy a 32 bit machine, eg
> closeouts and refurbs. Aguablu good enough for now, but also closer
 to
> the end of its life cycle and support cycle.
> 
> And on a x86_64 machine you could install 32 bit everything and be
> happy, or provided your distro carefully (I can vouch for openSuSE)
 you
> can install 64 bit and be just as happy and arguably better off for
> having made the transition.

Red Hat supposedly does a good job of including 32-bit compatibility
libraries too (I know I install lots of compatibility libs on my
servers but i generally run native 64-bit code).  I think windows
does OK too but I'm sure there are exceptions.

There are a few other enhancements that were made in the AMD64
architecture that can help beyond the extra address space.  The one
that comes to mind is that they doubled the number of CPU registers;
i've read that x86 is "generally felt to be a register-starved
architecture" so this could be a help.  Certainly for many benchmarks
it doesn't seem to matter.  However, this supposedly helps Java
performance a lot, and maybe better compilers will help in teh future?

Personally, I'm with Aaron - for the desktop I wouldn't bother with
a 64-bit OS today, unless i had need & budget for huge amounts of
memory (photoshop or video editing come to mind).  

But of course Raymond is right, there's not much choice other than
to buy 64-bit CPUs.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





__________________________________________________
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From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Nov  9 15:02:04 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:02:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MDLUG meeting tomorrow 11-10 @12:30
Message-ID: <4734BCBC.4010206@ameritech.net>

MDLUG meeting tomorrow regular time, regular place, see website
<http://mdlug.org> for directions.

If there are no objections I will be demonstrating VMware Player and
Workstation. I'm still slogging through the documentation, but I've
learned enough to give a basic demonstration.

Hopefully Carl will be there to fill in the blanks.  He's also familiar
with vmware's VMware Server and other VMware products that I'm not
familiar with.

May be Gary will bring in some of his exotic OS disks and we can see how
they run. (hint hint)

Hope to see you all there.

Raymond McLaughlin
President MDLUG


From gib at juno.com  Fri Nov  9 15:35:58 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 20:35:58 GMT
Subject: [mdlug]  MDLUG meeting tomorrow 11-10 @12:30
Message-ID: <20071109.153558.14668.1@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>

 
Okay, great.  I plan to bring in my WiMax base.

-- Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
MDLUG meeting tomorrow regular time, regular place, see website
<http://mdlug.org> for directions.

If there are no objections I will be demonstrating VMware Player and
Workstation. I'm still slogging through the documentation, but I've
learned enough to give a basic demonstration.

Hopefully Carl will be there to fill in the blanks.  He's also familiar
with vmware's VMware Server and other VMware products that I'm not
familiar with.

May be Gary will bring in some of his exotic OS disks and we can see how
they run. (hint hint)

Hope to see you all there.

Raymond McLaughlin
President MDLUG
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Proven Hair Replacement Options. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifcymTXj9odo1hxP6PTEcjpYXZMCtqOQkhO3AcAlECnqcQrT/
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From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Nov  9 23:00:29 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Fri,  9 Nov 2007 23:00:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] LG VX6100 + Bitmap + udev(?)
Message-ID: <20071110040029.060BC127C42@starfox.local>

Cellphone users,

I'm still trying to access my LG VX6100 cellphone with bitpim.

How do I use/enable/install/? "USB modem protocol" driver/? ?



I am not familiar with udev,
and have been unable to learn how to configure it.
The man pages have not helped.
The 1-page howto I found has not helped.
Where is the documentation?

I suspect that I need to see /dev/ttyACM0 but it does not appear
automatically, and I don't know how to install it.
What kernel module is required?



I have a straight-through cable and SuSE-10.1
When I plug it in,
/var/log/messages reports:
...
kernel: usb 1-1: new full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 4
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 11 for device 0000:00:03.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:03.1
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:07.2
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.1
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 11 for device 0000:00:03.1
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:03.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:07.2
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.1
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 5 for device 0000:00:08.0
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 11 for device 0000:00:10.0
kernel: USB Universal Host Controller Interface driver v2.3
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 11 for device 0000:00:07.2
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:03.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:03.1
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.1
kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:07.2: UHCI Host Controller
kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:07.2: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1
kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:07.2: irq 11, io base 0x0000dce0
kernel: hub 1-0:1.0: USB hub found
kernel: hub 1-0:1.0: 2 ports detected
...

/proc/bus/usb/devices reports
...
T:  Bus=01 Lev=01 Prnt=01 Port=00 Cnt=01 Dev#=  2 Spd=12  MxCh= 0
D:  Ver= 1.01 Cls=02(comm.) Sub=00 Prot=00 MxPS=16 #Cfgs=  1
P:  Vendor=1004 ProdID=6000 Rev= 0.00
S:  Manufacturer=LG CDMA USB Modem
S:  Product=Qualcomm CDMA Technologies MSM
C:* #Ifs= 3 Cfg#= 1 Atr=e0 MxPwr=100mA
I:  If#= 0 Alt= 0 #EPs= 1 Cls=02(comm.) Sub=02 Prot=01 Driver=(none)
E:  Ad=81(I) Atr=03(Int.) MxPS=  16 Ivl=32ms
I:  If#= 1 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=0a(data ) Sub=00 Prot=00 Driver=(none)
E:  Ad=8a(I) Atr=02(Bulk) MxPS=  64 Ivl=0ms
E:  Ad=0b(O) Atr=02(Bulk) MxPS=  64 Ivl=0ms
I:  If#= 2 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=ff(vend.) Sub=ff Prot=00 Driver=(none)
E:  Ad=83(I) Atr=02(Bulk) MxPS=  64 Ivl=0ms
E:  Ad=06(O) Atr=02(Bulk) MxPS=  64 Ivl=0ms
...

/opt/BitPim/BitPim-1.0.0/resources/usb.ids reports
...
1004  LG Electronics, Inc.
      6000 VX4400/VX6000 Cellphone
...

/opt/BitPim/BitPim-1.0.0/resources/usb_needdriver.ids reports
...
# LG phones - interface is USB modem protocol (and you should be using the
# diagnostics interface anyway)
1004  6000  1
...

bash> /sbin/lsmod reports
...
uhci_hcd               32016  0
usbcore               112640  2 uhci_hcd
...



What am I missing?
-- 
Robert Meier

"E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be
 used only to be used for company business."
      -- unknown


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Sat Nov 10 11:01:31 2007
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:01:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hacker Attack
Message-ID: <4735D5DB.4000105@wideopenwest.com>

More evidence that running windows is hazardous to ones' financial health.

"Botmaster" admits infecting 250,000 computers

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0823938120071110


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Nov 10 16:17:28 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:17:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed etc. -
	not	supp	orted flash
Message-ID: <1194729448.3711.3.camel@plumber.site>

	I did manage to install opensuse 10.3 64 bit and followed the
instructions here <http://www.softwareinreview.com/cms/content/view/84>
to install all the not included goodies, including flash. It does appear
to work??

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com  Sat Nov 10 19:00:32 2007
From: MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com (Michael David)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:00:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SGI Octane
In-Reply-To: <20071109.074835.19662.1@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20071109.074835.19662.1@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47364620.304@wideopenwest.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>
>  
>
> Radio Shack.
>
> -- Michael David <MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com> wrote:
> Would any one have a spare power supply for a SGI Octane? If not, would
> any one know of a good CHEAP place to get one?
>
> P/N 060-0038-001
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Click now to choose from thousands of designs for your checks! 
> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2112/fc/Ioyw6iifWifkTUeMlYWYoXzeXtE6rQKk6UXa8W28xaq52wCjERRYTS/>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.28/1123 - Release Date: 11/10/2007 3:47 PM
>   
Thank you, but I do not think Radio Shack has anything that will power 
up a SGI Octane.

Mike


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov  9 12:29:12 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:29:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>
	<4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <473498E8.6060201@hotpop.com>

allen majorovic wrote:
> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> When we buy something "made in China" we are ALWAYS paying most if not 
>> all of the "cheap labor" component of the product to the government 
>> owned factory that is fueling the destruction of their ecology and 
>> funding their nuclear arms race with us....  NPR had an interesting 
>> segment on it last week (arms race). It is the same government 
>> Chairman Mao started and the one guilty of killing more millions of 
>> its own people than any in all of history. But hey, it is out of our 
>> sight and most Americans morals are tied so closely to the dollar.
>>
>> -dave
>>
>> PS - a couple years ago I wanted to buy a non-stick fry pan made in 
>> USA.  China-mart didn't have any - 70% by dollar of their product is 
>> made in China. Meijer actually had a selection including made in 
>> USA...  The funny thing is, the locally made pans were of higher 
>> quality and $2 cheaper than those at Wal-mart, or the Chinese made 
>> pans at Meijer. So much for "Cheap labor".  No, we don't have morals 
>> here for industry, adult or others.
> 
> So when does it become morally acceptable to buy Chinese goods?
>

For starters...when they stop using slave labor.

And on a practical level, when they stop threatening to
go to war with us because the US Navy keeps the Straights
of Malacca (sp?) and other commercial shipping channels
open to all vessels, regardless of flag.

At their general staff college, they've been teaching their
newly-appointed flag officers that they WILL be at war
with us by 2015-2010 timeframe.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov  9 12:24:23 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:24:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <20071109164525.GA30442@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
	<472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>
	<20071109164525.GA30442@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <473497C7.50904@hotpop.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 11:01:31AM -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> [aaron kulkis quoted too]
> 
>>> 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
>>>     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.
> 
>> Option 4 is a available on *some* Intel 64 bit processors.
> 
> Any 64-bit intel CPU you'd buy in a "PC" would qualify.  You'd have
> to go way out of your way and pay a lot more money to buy an Itanium.
> 
> Core 2 Duos are 64-bit; "Core" (what you might think of as "core 1")
> CPUs are not.
> 
> There are 64-bit versions of the pentium 4 & celeron, as well as
> Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.  some of the older p4-based
> Xeons.  Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.
> 
> The relevant intel marketing word is "EM64T".

But which of those are capable of booting up to a
64-bit operating system and then running 32-bit
code? -- it's NOT a trivial thing -- we had 64-bit
CPUs for over a decade before AMD developed one
that could accomplish this feat.


> 
>> My off the cuff recollection is that when Intel first entered the 64 bit
>> market their product, codenamed Itanic^h_um was a fresh new architecture
>> with no backwards compatibility, and thus unencumbered with concerns
>> about supporting legacy code.
> 
> It is not compatible with x86 but it might be with HP PA-RISC.  Not sure;
> but the architecture comes out of work done originally at HP and it was
> certainly the market successor to PA-RISC.

I believe Itanium was a joint HP/Intel project for HP's
next generation of HP-UX workstations.

And then Intel got miffed when HP switched from
PA-RISK CPUs to x86 architecture instead of Itanium.

> 
> A relevant intel marketing word for Itanium is "IA64".
>
>>> Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
>>> general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
>>> niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
>>> extremely large database operations, etc) but has
>>> not yet been completed in many areas.
>>>
>>> Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
>>> in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
>>> are capable of doing this), there are currently
>>> a lot of problems still.
>>>
>>> Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
>>> 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
>>> mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
>>> to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
>>> don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
>>> do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
>>> but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
>>> were to go that route at this time.
>> I disagree with this assessment. I would have had more validity 18
>> months ago but the software has matured in that time, and of late you
>> would really need to go out of your way to buy a 32 bit machine, eg
>> closeouts and refurbs. Aguablu good enough for now, but also closer to
>> the end of its life cycle and support cycle.
>>
>> And on a x86_64 machine you could install 32 bit everything and be
>> happy, or provided your distro carefully (I can vouch for openSuSE) you
>> can install 64 bit and be just as happy and arguably better off for
>> having made the transition.
> 
> Red Hat supposedly does a good job of including 32-bit compatibility
> libraries too (I know I install lots of compatibility libs on my
> servers but i generally run native 64-bit code).  I think windows
> does OK too but I'm sure there are exceptions.
> 
> There are a few other enhancements that were made in the AMD64
> architecture that can help beyond the extra address space.  The one
> that comes to mind is that they doubled the number of CPU registers;
> i've read that x86 is "generally felt to be a register-starved
> architecture" so this could be a help.  Certainly for many benchmarks
> it doesn't seem to matter.  However, this supposedly helps Java
> performance a lot, and maybe better compilers will help in teh future?
> 
> Personally, I'm with Aaron - for the desktop I wouldn't bother with
> a 64-bit OS today, unless i had need & budget for huge amounts of
> memory (photoshop or video editing come to mind).  
> 
> But of course Raymond is right, there's not much choice other than
> to buy 64-bit CPUs.
> 
> danno
> --
> dan pritts
> danno at umich.edu




From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 04:01:59 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 04:01:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Sign from above
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711110101x5747a119i1225152c3a8bd9de@mail.gmail.com>

Gotta love Microsoft Windows -- such vivid color -- especially when it
runs on giant LED screens... ;-)

<http://pizdaus.com/pics/AdTf9bR8HlRi.jpg>

This is a great site for highly-amusing random pics, by the way.

~~ Mikey


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 14:35:10 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:35:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] LG VX6100 + Bitmap + udev(?)
In-Reply-To: <20071110040029.060BC127C42@starfox.local>
References: <20071110040029.060BC127C42@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711111135r4e30eb2asc2d0c5d5a1b1b607@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 9, 2007 11:00 PM, Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> Cellphone users,
>
> I'm still trying to access my LG VX6100 cellphone with bitpim.
>
> How do I use/enable/install/? "USB modem protocol" driver/? ?
>
> I am not familiar with udev,
> and have been unable to learn how to configure it.
> The man pages have not helped.
> The 1-page howto I found has not helped.
> Where is the documentation?
>
> I suspect that I need to see /dev/ttyACM0 but it does not appear
> automatically, and I don't know how to install it.
> What kernel module is required?

Try asking here:
https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=3581


From danno at umich.edu  Sun Nov 11 23:36:52 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:36:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <473497C7.50904@hotpop.com>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com> <472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>
	<20071109164525.GA30442@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<473497C7.50904@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20071112043652.GA78325@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 12:24:23PM -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> > Any 64-bit intel CPU you'd buy in a "PC" would qualify.  You'd have
> > to go way out of your way and pay a lot more money to buy an Itanium.

> But which of those are capable of booting up to a
> 64-bit operating system and then running 32-bit
> code? -- it's NOT a trivial thing -- we had 64-bit
> CPUs for over a decade before AMD developed one
> that could accomplish this feat.

All of them.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 01:02:53 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:02:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Newly discovered Windows vulnerability
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711122202j6666f49er531957299ce5205e@mail.gmail.com>

To quote John Hurt in Spaceballs, "Oh no, not again!"  Mentioned here
because many of us dual-boot or deal with heterogeneous networks...

"Security loophole found in Windows operating system"
<http://www.physorg.com/news114086937.html>

This is an appalling discovery (more so than usual). While only
Win2000 was tested, I'm sure that other Windows versions use the same
random-number generator algorithm -- right up to WinVista, most
likely.

~~ Mikey


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Nov 13 07:53:21 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:53:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <473497C7.50904@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC99@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> But which of those are capable of booting up to a
> 64-bit operating system and then running 32-bit
> code? -- it's NOT a trivial thing -- we had 64-bit
> CPUs for over a decade before AMD developed one
> that could accomplish this feat.

 Um, we run 32-bit AIX executables on 64-bit AIX regularly...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                 (313) 227-2317

 "'Depriving us of Trial by Jury' was actually considered sufficient cause
  to start a War of Independence, based on the then-fashionable idea that
                     'liberty' was an unalienable right."
             - Keith Olbermann on suspension of Habeas Corpus
                   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220450/
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 13:08:51 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:08:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Newly discovered Windows vulnerability
References: <b67fb0380711122202j6666f49er531957299ce5205e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001201c82620$3effa750$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

I know, I know...

Is it called Vista?

:-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Rudas" <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: <linux-user at egr.msu.edu>; "MDLUG's Main discussion list" 
<mdlug at mdlug.org>; "The WFTL LUG" <wftl-lug at salmar.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 1:02 AM
Subject: [mdlug] Newly discovered Windows vulnerability


> To quote John Hurt in Spaceballs, "Oh no, not again!"  Mentioned here
> because many of us dual-boot or deal with heterogeneous networks...
>
> "Security loophole found in Windows operating system"
> <http://www.physorg.com/news114086937.html>
>
> This is an appalling discovery (more so than usual). While only
> Win2000 was tested, I'm sure that other Windows versions use the same
> random-number generator algorithm -- right up to WinVista, most
> likely.
>
> ~~ Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 
> 12:00 AM
> 



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 13 17:55:38 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:55:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
Message-ID: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and so don't need that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks, Dean
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From otakurider at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 19:01:20 2007
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:01:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cd5131a50711131601g29f35ad8p615f20597180e74a@mail.gmail.com>

Most of the


Here is a link to a list of web blocking sites like netnanny,
webwatcher, etc - not sure how long it will be up just FYI
http://www.wellresearchedreviews.com/computer-monitoring/?id=96&s=google&gclid=CMjA2vyC248CFQdEFQod8Ezb7Q


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Nov 13 19:21:49 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:21:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Walinux
Message-ID: <473A3F9D.3010800@comcast.net>

Well Walmart has sold out the 200 buck Linux machine.  I don't know
whether to cheer or shudder.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 13 21:18:28 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:18:28 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <200711131818.28974.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

One of our best employees is a female who developed a large portion of 
the Playboy website.

And yes, the experience does make for amusing banter :)

On Friday 02 November 2007, Brian Hurley wrote:
> On Friday 02 November 2007, Michael Corral wrote:
> > 2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
> > > Matthew Krauss wrote:
> > >> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking
> > >> a full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing
> > >> and maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment
> > >> industry.
> > >
> > > I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife
> > > explaining why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
> >
> > Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
> > that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like,
> > forever. Not the wisest career move, IMO.
>
> I seriously doubt it would be an issue. Size (webfarm size that is)
> is what matters and technology, not the mission of the employer. If
> anything its as likely to help as hurt, as it would make for some
> amusing banter during the interview.



-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 13 18:33:50 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:33:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC99@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC99@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <473A345E.2090702@hotpop.com>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Aaron Kulkis
> 
>> But which of those are capable of booting up to a
>> 64-bit operating system and then running 32-bit
>> code? -- it's NOT a trivial thing -- we had 64-bit
>> CPUs for over a decade before AMD developed one
>> that could accomplish this feat.
> 
>  Um, we run 32-bit AIX executables on 64-bit AIX regularly...

Which CPUs are in those machines?

I don't remember that being possible in
the first part of the decade even with
IBM's p5 series machines.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 13 18:50:33 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Newly discovered Windows vulnerability
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711122202j6666f49er531957299ce5205e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711122202j6666f49er531957299ce5205e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473A3849.6050105@hotpop.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> To quote John Hurt in Spaceballs, "Oh no, not again!"  Mentioned here
> because many of us dual-boot or deal with heterogeneous networks...
> 
> "Security loophole found in Windows operating system"
> <http://www.physorg.com/news114086937.html>
> 
> This is an appalling discovery (more so than usual). While only
> Win2000 was tested, I'm sure that other Windows versions use the
   ^^^^^^^
   Lose2000

 > same random-number generator algorithm -- right up to WinVista,
                                                         ^^^^^^^^
                                                         LoseVista

 > most likely.

Please use appropriate terminology ;-)






From ldaphelp at thuemmel.com  Tue Nov 13 23:39:38 2007
From: ldaphelp at thuemmel.com (Mark Thuemmel)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 23:39:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <473A7C0A.7080301@thuemmel.com>

One vote Squid.

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and
> restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we
> have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand
> exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss
> says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than
> squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and
> so don't need that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have
> to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can
> give.    Thanks, Dean



From jjn at nuge.com  Wed Nov 14 04:30:58 2007
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 04:30:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711140410360.22615-100000@home.nuge.com>



                    *** Meeting Announcement ***
                             for the
                 Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG

           Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm

           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
                      Room BE-140

              Topic:  Show-N-Tell
                 By:  A cast of thousands!


   This month's meeting will be "Show-and-Tell" night.  Put yourself on
the schedule for a 10 minute talk about cool hardware you've tried, neat
software you've discovered, mindless hacks you've perpetrated, etc.  
Anyone can bring anything (prefereably cool techno-geeky stuff and a bonus
if it's Linux related) to show off to the Peanut Gallery.  You don't have
to be on the agenda to speak.

Paul Wehr -- Will pass around his new [shipped-with-linux] ASUS Eee PC.

Joe Landman (maybe) -- Show us his "JackRabbit" Server.

Kraig Hayner -- Well, face it...we tap into Kraig every month just to keep 
                him awake and on his toes!

 ...and anyone else who wishes to Show-N-Tell...


                         ================================

      See [www.lugwash.org] for further information about the Washtenaw 
Linux Users Group, maps and directions, and mailing list information.

          --- Jay

"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
 be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  3:01am  up 191 days, 23:52,  3 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.07, 0.06





From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 14 08:21:59 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:21:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071114132820.7394D14143@impelind.com>

 
	Squid is likely the best possible solution for what you need.

	Is there something in particular that you boss dislikes about squid?

	Squid is also not terribly difficult to configure and figure out,
the vast majority of what you need to do, in regards to configuration, is
fairly clearly explained in the comments that are throughout the entire
configuration file.

	If understanding the configuration file is difficult, I'd suggest
installing something called "Webmin". It's a web browser based configuration
tool that has excellent modules for configuring virutally everything on a
Linux system. The layout of the squid module can make it easier to
understand how it all goes together.

	The squid-cache mailing lists are also very helpful, as is their FAQ
and howto documents.

	Being a caching proxy, squid is actually better, especially if you
have a "limited" Internet connection and many people tend to visit/access
the same outside webpages.

	I've been using squid for a number of years here and could probably
answer some/most questions you might have.

	-Rob
 


________________________________

	From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On
Behalf Of Dean Durant
	Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:56 PM
	To: mdlug at mdlug.org
	Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
	
	
	Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited,
and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we
have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand exactly
how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss says he
doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than squid.   The
new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and so don't need
that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have to be free.
Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks,
Dean




From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Wed Nov 14 09:38:35 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:38:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
Message-ID: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am wondering if
anybody has any recommendations of any software to do this easily?  If not,
I can just use something like OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software
out there that will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use
that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and relatively flat.
The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.

TIA,

Greg Wojtak



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 14 09:49:03 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:49:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
In-Reply-To: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <20071114145524.DF79E1412E@impelind.com>

Check out sourcforge and look through the network tools area.

I recall reading something about such software some time ago.

It's interesting stuff, never really needed to use it myself though.

I do believe that it involves tossing a good number of packets around the
network and comparing the times, averaging things out and then builds a
rough model of the network and what is located where in an abstract fashion.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Wojtak, Greg
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:39 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
> 
> I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am 
> wondering if anybody has any recommendations of any software 
> to do this easily?  If not, I can just use something like 
> OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software out there that 
> will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use 
> that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and 
> relatively flat.
> The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Greg Wojtak
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 14 10:03:25 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Comparing Linux Distributions - Final Results
Message-ID: <142146.47447.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Great article about Linux distros.
 
http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/eai/madgreek/archives/comparing-linux-distributions-final-results-20431





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. 
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
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From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Wed Nov 14 10:06:30 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:06:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <20071114132820.7394D14143@impelind.com>
References: <20071114132820.7394D14143@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <1195052790.5358.19.camel@laptop01>

	
> 	Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited,
> and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we
> have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand exactly
> how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss says he
> doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than squid.   The
> new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and so don't need
> that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have to be free.
> Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks,
> Dean
> 
I recently set up DansGuardian to do content filtering it does require
squid but you can set up squid so it just does pass through and no
cacheing although I don't understand why you would not use the caching
feature.



From jcbender at bendorius.com  Wed Nov 14 11:27:34 2007
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:27:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
In-Reply-To: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <473B21F6.1000505@bendorius.com>

Wojtak, Greg wrote:
> I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am wondering if
> anybody has any recommendations of any software to do this easily?  If not,
> I can just use something like OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software
> out there that will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use
> that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and relatively flat.
> The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.
> 
	Take a look at cheops-ng.

http://cheops-ng.sourceforge.net/

It may do what you want.

-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From linux at ksimachine.com  Wed Nov 14 14:31:20 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:31:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <473B4D08.9030505@ksimachine.com>

I agree with others and would suggest you learn Squid. 
It can be setup as a blind proxy, has caching ability, is fairly fast
and is not hard to learn.
I have a script that updates several lists I use.  The update script
runs at night.  It updates "porn" and "ad servers" lists.
I also use "Webalizer - Squid" and "Sarg" to automate the reports of
what Squid is doing.
In the past 6-12 months I have only had to make a couple of minor
adjustments, everything else is handled by the automated scripts.


Joe

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited,
> and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?   
> Presently we have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't
> understand exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.  
> The new boss says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something
> simpler than squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy
> features of squid, and so don't need that.   He said, "find something
> else."   It doesn't have to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I
> appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks, Dean
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Nov 14 14:15:03 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:15:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <473B4937.2080304@hotpop.com>

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and 
> restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we 
> have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand 
> exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss 
> says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than 
> squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and 
> so don't need that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have 
> to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can 
> give.    Thanks, Dean


It sounds like the problem isn't squid itself, or the idea
of proxies in general...but instead the problem is probably
just a really poorly designed configuration -- the main clue
here being "I don't understand exactly how everything works.
Neither does anyone else"

Sounds like the previous admin was a hack (NOT a hacker),
who, among other things, didn't believe in commenting
his work  -- probably because he didn't know very well
what he was doing in the first place.

I would keep squid, and design a new configuration
from scratch.

I've never had to admin a squid proxy, but I have worked at
places where it was being used.  Squid works well when
properly configured -- just like most other software out there.




From mdlug2 at arb.net  Wed Nov 14 16:33:27 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:33:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <473B4937.2080304@hotpop.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<473B4937.2080304@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <473B69A7.6040202@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

>Dean Durant wrote:
>  
>
>>Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and 
>>restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we 
>>have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand 
>>exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss 
>>says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than 
>>squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and 
>>so don't need that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have 
>>to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can 
>>give.    Thanks, Dean
>>    
>>
>
>
>It sounds like the problem isn't squid itself, or the idea
>of proxies in general...but instead the problem is probably
>just a really poorly designed configuration -- the main clue
>here being "I don't understand exactly how everything works.
>Neither does anyone else"
>
>Sounds like the previous admin was a hack (NOT a hacker),
>who, among other things, didn't believe in commenting
>his work  -- probably because he didn't know very well
>what he was doing in the first place.
>
>I would keep squid, and design a new configuration
>from scratch.
>
>I've never had to admin a squid proxy, but I have worked at
>places where it was being used.  Squid works well when
>properly configured -- just like most other software out there.
>
>
>  
>
I have to agree with everything said, except I have admin'd Squid in a 
fortune 50 company as well as smaller companies. You could spend $$$$$  
for a cisco solution that would also have a learning  curve and it 
wouldn't gain you much other than getting locked into a smartnet 
contract if you want sw upgrades.

-dave (CISSP)
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From muteid10t at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 18:50:13 2007
From: muteid10t at gmail.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:50:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <473B69A7.6040202@arb.net>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<473B4937.2080304@hotpop.com> <473B69A7.6040202@arb.net>
Message-ID: <52995d720711141550v4b807b81yd6a71f5d7de77ef9@mail.gmail.com>

And squid is easier to learn than cisco, or any of the other
proprietary systems like it.

On 11/14/07, Dave Arbogast <mdlug2 at arb.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>  Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>
>  Dean Durant wrote:
>
>
>  Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and
> restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy? Presently we
> have squid. It was a system we inherited. But I don't understand
> exactly how everything works. Neither does anyone else. The new boss
> says he doesn't like it. My task is to find something simpler than
> squid. The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and
> so don't need that. He said, "find something else." It doesn't have
> to be free. Could be HW or SW. I appreciate any help anyone can
> give. Thanks, Dean
>
>
> It sounds like the problem isn't squid itself, or the idea
> of proxies in general...but instead the problem is probably
> just a really poorly designed configuration -- the main clue
> here being "I don't understand exactly how everything works.
> Neither does anyone else"
>
> Sounds like the previous admin was a hack (NOT a hacker),
> who, among other things, didn't believe in commenting
> his work -- probably because he didn't know very well
> what he was doing in the first place.
>
> I would keep squid, and design a new configuration
> from scratch.
>
> I've never had to admin a squid proxy, but I have worked at
> places where it was being used. Squid works well when
> properly configured -- just like most other software out there.
>
>
>
>  I have to agree with everything said, except I have admin'd Squid in a
> fortune 50 company as well as smaller companies. You could spend $$$$$  for
> a cisco solution that would also have a learning  curve and it wouldn't gain
> you much other than getting locked into a smartnet contract if you want sw
> upgrades.
>
>  -dave (CISSP)
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From gib at juno.com  Thu Nov 15 08:35:32 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:35:32 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
Message-ID: <20071115.083532.14890.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>

 
I plan to attend for the first time.  I'll bring my wireless equipment. Do you have an Ethernet connection to the Internet available in the meeting area?

-- Jay Nugent <jjn at nuge.com> wrote:



                   *** Meeting Announcement ***
                            for the
                Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG

          Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm

          Location:  Washtenaw Community College
                     4800 E.Huron River Drive
                     Ann Arbor, Michigan
                     Room BE-140

             Topic:  Show-N-Tell
                By:  A cast of thousands!


  This month's meeting will be "Show-and-Tell" night.  Put yourself on
the schedule for a 10 minute talk about cool hardware you've tried, neat
software you've discovered, mindless hacks you've perpetrated, etc.  
Anyone can bring anything (prefereably cool techno-geeky stuff and a bonus
if it's Linux related) to show off to the Peanut Gallery.  You don't have
to be on the agenda to speak.

Paul Wehr -- Will pass around his new [shipped-with-linux] ASUS Eee PC.

Joe Landman (maybe) -- Show us his "JackRabbit" Server.

Kraig Hayner -- Well, face it...we tap into Kraig every month just to keep 
               him awake and on his toes!

...and anyone else who wishes to Show-N-Tell...


                        ================================

     See [www.lugwash.org] for further information about the Washtenaw 
Linux Users Group, maps and directions, and mailing list information.

         --- Jay

"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 3:01am  up 191 days, 23:52,  3 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.07, 0.06



_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Bolster your sales numbers with professional sales training. Click here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifVz95i1VV2SBupqWhIiflyfzeLn9XD7E1aMFNUVUz0ZbF44/
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From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 10:08:13 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:08:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711140410360.22615-100000@home.nuge.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711140410360.22615-100000@home.nuge.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711150708t39096d80nd6155f5aa947d2e2@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 14, 2007 4:30 AM, Jay Nugent <jjn at nuge.com> wrote:
> Paul Wehr -- Will pass around his new [shipped-with-linux] ASUS Eee PC.
>
> Joe Landman (maybe) -- Show us his "JackRabbit" Server.
>
> Kraig Hayner -- Well, face it...we tap into Kraig every month just to keep
>                 him awake and on his toes!
>
>  ...and anyone else who wishes to Show-N-Tell...

If my laptop's hard drive is still working I can show off some of the
popular free 3D FPS games I've been messing with.


From gib at juno.com  Thu Nov 15 12:53:08 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:53:08 GMT
Subject: [mdlug]  Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
Message-ID: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>


Is the location easy to find?  I don't see a building name or description in the notice.  I can see the area in a map on mapquest.com.  I just wonder if it will be easily marked with a sign.

-- Jay Nugent <jjn at nuge.com> wrote:



                   *** Meeting Announcement ***
                            for the
                Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG

          Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm

          Location:  Washtenaw Community College
                     4800 E.Huron River Drive
                     Ann Arbor, Michigan
                     Room BE-140

             Topic:  Show-N-Tell
                By:  A cast of thousands!


  This month's meeting will be "Show-and-Tell" night.  Put yourself on
the schedule for a 10 minute talk about cool hardware you've tried, neat
software you've discovered, mindless hacks you've perpetrated, etc.  
Anyone can bring anything (prefereably cool techno-geeky stuff and a bonus
if it's Linux related) to show off to the Peanut Gallery.  You don't have
to be on the agenda to speak.

Paul Wehr -- Will pass around his new [shipped-with-linux] ASUS Eee PC.

Joe Landman (maybe) -- Show us his "JackRabbit" Server.

Kraig Hayner -- Well, face it...we tap into Kraig every month just to keep 
               him awake and on his toes!

...and anyone else who wishes to Show-N-Tell...


                        ================================

     See [www.lugwash.org] for further information about the Washtenaw 
Linux Users Group, maps and directions, and mailing list information.

         --- Jay

"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 3:01am  up 191 days, 23:52,  3 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.07, 0.06



_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Boost your online security with a personal firewall. Click here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigbohH33dC39mcyTgwn85qHScW9exNv0CHiwFGfKNOTtIIra/
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From millerc at cantonpl.org  Thu Nov 15 13:52:07 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:52:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <46919.66.51.146.97.1195152727.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>
> Is the location easy to find?  I don't see a building name or description
> in the notice.  I can see the area in a map on mapquest.com.  I just
> wonder if it will be easily marked with a sign.
>
>           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
>                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
>                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
>                      Room BE-140

BE is the Business Education building.  Here's the link to
their website:

<http://www.wccnet.edu/aboutwcc/collegeinfo/directionsandmaps/>

c




From tony at bemushosting.com  Thu Nov 15 13:57:53 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:57:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <46919.66.51.146.97.1195152727.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
	<46919.66.51.146.97.1195152727.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <1195153073.7553.1.camel@bemus-tony>

Im thinking about going for the first time,  Does any one want to Car
pool?  I live in Taylor..

Tony 734-564-9799
On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 13:52 -0500, Carl T. Miller wrote:
> gib at juno.com wrote:
> >
> > Is the location easy to find?  I don't see a building name or description
> > in the notice.  I can see the area in a map on mapquest.com.  I just
> > wonder if it will be easily marked with a sign.
> >
> >           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
> >                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
> >                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
> >                      Room BE-140
> 
> BE is the Business Education building.  Here's the link to
> their website:
> 
> <http://www.wccnet.edu/aboutwcc/collegeinfo/directionsandmaps/>
> 
> c
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
-- 
Tony Bemus
Bemus Hosting
www.bemushosting.com



From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Nov 15 16:04:43 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:04:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <473CB46B.2040204@ameritech.net>

gib at juno.com wrote:
> 
> Is the location easy to find?  I don't see a building name or
> description in the notice. 

"Room BE-104" = Room 104, Business Education Building
I see someone sent you a link to some maps. If you follow the
"Directions to WCC" link it will take you to a Google map. When you zoom
in the little red maker is just to the right of the BE Building. It's
the almost perfectly square building to the left of the marker.

> I can see the area in a map on
> mapquest.com.  I just wonder if it will be easily marked with a sign.

Yes, once you are on campus there are signs with arrows pointing the way
to the Business Education Building.

> -- Jay Nugent <jjn at nuge.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>                    *** Meeting Announcement ***
>                             for the
>                 Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG
> 
>           Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm
> 
>           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
>                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
>                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
>                      Room BE-140
> 
>              Topic:  Show-N-Tell
>                 By:  A cast of thousands!


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Thu Nov 15 19:25:34 2007
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:25:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20071115192534.15079456@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:53:08 GMT
gib at juno.com wrote:

...[snip]...
 
>                    *** Meeting Announcement ***
>                             for the
>                 Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG
> 
>           Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm
> 
>           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
>                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
>                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
>                      Room BE-140

                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^

BE-140 designates room 140 of the Business Education building.


From wolfger at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 21:00:14 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:00:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fwd: [ubuntu-us-mi] PenguiCon
In-Reply-To: <1195155916.6520.2.camel@trevor-laptop>
References: <1195155916.6520.2.camel@trevor-laptop>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711151800m4d09013dvf3d602f3fb824eaf@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------


This should perk the interest of many of you, a quote from a recent post
on penguicon's website:

"We have a whole slate of announcements to make today about the tech
track at Penguicon. Ubuntu Linux will be huge at Penguicon this year,
with the attendance of our two Tech Guests of Honor Jono Bacon and
Benjamin Mako Hill. Chris DiBona, Open Source Program Director for
Google and our 2006 Tech Guest, has let us know he'll return in 2008 and
bring Google's open source organizer and geek herder, Leslie Hawthorn.
Tech Nifties will also include Jorge Castro and Kyle Rankin. "

For those of you whom are confused, Jono Bacon is the Community Manager
for Canonical, and Benjamin Mako Hill is the Author of "The Official
Ubuntu Book."  Anybody else think it might be easier to get some free
'buntu swag now?


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Thu Nov 15 22:25:08 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:25:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
Message-ID: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>

Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:

A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.  
She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.   
Well, thanks for reading.  


From muteid10t at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 23:30:23 2007
From: muteid10t at gmail.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:30:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
References: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <52995d720711152030u55d73498i9c30df1f057393c2@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible for you to post some (or all) of the ACL rules to the list.
If posting all of the rules is to big for inclusion in an email then
please put them in a zipped text doc.

I imagine (if not me) someone here will have an idea what your squid
ACL rules are doing.

-Ron

On 11/15/07, Dean Durant <mdlug at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
>
> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.
> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?
> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.
> Well, thanks for reading.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Nov 16 08:24:16 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:24:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20071116133042.D58EF14140@impelind.com>

There is more than one way to deny access to sites.

One method does use regular expression and involves both a deny and an allow
lists.

If you are having trouble with certain areas of an otherwise allowed site,
you can alter the allow entry to include wildcards that will allow any site
that uses a portion of the URL you are having issues with.

I had to do this with a few such sites.

If this is the kind of setup you have, then all you need to do is alter the
text file and then restart squid and the change will begin working. This
isn't a change you need to make in the squid.conf file, so what you are
looking for (again, if this is the method used to block sites) is a line
pointing to a file outside of the squid.conf file.

The directions I had read when I set that up for us strongly suggested that
I put the porn and noporn regex files in the same location as the squid.conf
file, which was /etc/squid/ on my installation.

A quick check might be to see if you have some files just sitting in the
same location as your squid.conf named porn, noporn or allow, deny or some
other similar elements.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Dean Durant
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:25 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
> 
> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
> 
> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.  
>  She wants
> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain 
> dates.   There
> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants 
> to check.  
> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access 
> log and the
> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see 
> that squid
> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by 
> regex, and I
> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I 
> mean, I get
> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's 
> true, the
> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday 
> break.   
> Well, thanks for reading.  
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov 16 12:21:29 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:21:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <200711131818.28974.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<200711131818.28974.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071116172129.GA68556@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 06:18:28PM -0800, Michael S. Mikowski wrote:
> One of our best employees is a female who developed a large portion of 
> the Playboy website.
> 
> And yes, the experience does make for amusing banter :)

I knew a guy who had a playboy fan-site way back in the day, before
playboy brought up their own site.  He might have even registered
playboy.com (if so, i'm sure he gave it to them when they asked).
They liked his work on his site enough they hired him sight unseen
to come out and work on their real site.

He ended up back in ann arbor a couple months later; they sent him
packing and said he "wasn't mature enough."  Guess he spent too
much time ogling the merchandise.  

danno


From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov 16 12:27:46 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:27:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
In-Reply-To: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <20071116172746.GB68556@maniac.deathstar.org>

there's something called scotty that's been around for years.
I don't know how much auto-discovery it has.

visio has some sort of discovery mode but i think it's geared more
toward M$ servers than network devices.  I have not tried it in
years; when i did try, it didn't immediately do something useful to
me.  worth a shot though.

I would be interested in a report of whatever you find.



on a related note, anyone aware of a freeware traceroute-like thing
for ethernet?  I can imagine how i'd write such a thing using SNMP
queries to the switches, and i've even cobbled together part of it,
but never really finished.  I heard a guy present at the Merit Joint
Techs meeting who had a homegrown tool that did this with cisco
switches, but it was using cisco-proprietary methods.

I believe that the Solarwinds product has this feature; anyone tried that?
In general, have folks used solarwinds?  It seems like it might be useful
and the price isn't too bad.

tnx
danno

On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 09:38:35AM -0500, Wojtak, Greg wrote:
> I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am wondering if
> anybody has any recommendations of any software to do this easily?  If not,
> I can just use something like OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software
> out there that will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use
> that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and relatively flat.
> The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Greg Wojtak
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov 16 12:29:55 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:29:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
References: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20071116172955.GC68556@maniac.deathstar.org>

The first thing i'd do is see if squid's logging verbosity can be
increased; that might tell you what you want to know.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 10:25:08PM -0500, Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
> 
> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.  
> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.   
> Well, thanks for reading.  
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov 16 15:49:47 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:49:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <20071116172955.GC68556@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
	<20071116172955.GC68556@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <473E026B.70401@hotpop.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> The first thing i'd do is see if squid's logging verbosity can be
> increased; that might tell you what you want to know.
> 

and also do a

tail -f

on the log file so that you can see what each action
produces in the log file as it happens.+

> On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 10:25:08PM -0500, Dean Durant wrote:
>> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
>>
>> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
>> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
>> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.  
>> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
>> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
>> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
>> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
>> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
>> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
>> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
>> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
>> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
>> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
>> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
>> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.   
>> Well, thanks for reading.  




From otakurider at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 21:35:30 2007
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:35:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
In-Reply-To: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <cd5131a50711161835x34f98bd2re3f64f9b87997264@mail.gmail.com>

I have used Autoscan, Netdiscover, Amap, GSN languard.  check out a
disk called backtrack2 or helix.



Pat
VP

On Nov 14, 2007 9:38 AM, Wojtak, Greg <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:
> I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am wondering if
> anybody has any recommendations of any software to do this easily?  If not,
> I can just use something like OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software
> out there that will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use
> that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and relatively flat.
> The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.
>
> TIA,
>
> Greg Wojtak
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 08:24:02 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:24:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>

LOL

I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
spyware, and wasted computer power...

"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
(Office 2000)."
<http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>

~~ Mikey


From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Sat Nov 17 09:04:46 2007
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:04:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711170904.46477.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Saturday 17 November 2007, Michael Rudas wrote:
> LOL
>
> I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
> perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
> Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
> anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
> spyware, and wasted computer power...
>
> "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
> Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
> processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
> (Office 2000)."
> <http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-aw
>ay.html>

I wonder how many X memory and processing power KDE or GNOME system using 
Star/Open Office has increased since 2000. Bloatware isn't a MS-only 
phenomenon.

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From wolfger at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 09:38:00 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:38:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <200711170904.46477.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711170904.46477.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711170638q58e7fdb6r6e55ecff7068f71d@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 9:04 AM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:

> > "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
> > Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
> > processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
>
> I wonder how many X memory and processing power KDE or GNOME system using
> Star/Open Office has increased since 2000. Bloatware isn't a MS-only
> phenomenon.

I'm curious to know as well, but X isn't a good indicator. If the
footprint was 1MB and is now 5MB, that's a 5x increase, but nothing
compared to a change from 20MB to 40MB, which is a mere 2x.
So, anybody got some good numbers?

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 17 09:44:24 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:44:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I see it a lot on my job.  A company will make a development decision that will cost their clients on computing resource overhead to make it "easier" to support.

I started programming in the days of the 286 and the 8088 pc bit slice and to have fast code you had to manage memory and know the architecture you were working with and use good programming techniques.  

Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost effective in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is passed onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

David 

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: The WFTL LUG <wftl-lug at salmar.com>; linux-user at egr.msu.edu; MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:24:02 AM
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


LOL

I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
spyware, and wasted computer power...

"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
(Office 2000)."
<http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>

~~ Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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From wolfger at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 09:58:35 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:58:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost effective
> in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is passed
> onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
need for more powerful computers.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 17 10:22:01 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:22:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <698263.37784.qm@web37914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Kind-of,

I was at a National users group meeting and a presenter said that CPU  resources are cheap.  But I went to the hard classes in college Computer Science ( Not MIS ).  It costs a bit more up front to produce good efficient code. That code performs and does not require a super-fast liquid CPU to run things, 

But that might be good.  I means to me building a good Linux home office infrastructure  will be very cost effective.

In the case of development, developers are subject to "Business and Finance Managers" and they want  a path that yields the most money and costs the least. There is always some resource that pops up to make software development less costly to develop and the cost of that in the end is overhead and overall application performance.   

In the case of the schools that I consult for is a saleability and responsiveness.  

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:58:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost
 effective
> in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is
 passed
> onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
need for more powerful computers.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. 
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 17 10:28:17 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:28:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <794610.86515.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

By the way, that is why I moved to Linux.  



----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:58:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost
 effective
> in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is
 passed
> onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
need for more powerful computers.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you 
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Nov 17 13:10:19 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:10:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473F2E8B.40504@hotpop.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> LOL
> 
> I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
> perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
> Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
> anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
> spyware, and wasted computer power...
> 
> "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
> Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
> processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
> (Office 2000)."

That, combined with concocting new file formats which are
incompatible with old versions of office, is all part of
their strategy to get people to throw away their old
hardware, and thus buying yet another copy of the O.S.

> <http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>
> 
> ~~ Mikey




From mdlug2 at arb.net  Sat Nov 17 13:42:43 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:42:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473F3623.7030304@arb.net>

What really amazes me is nearly all CIO's are forgetting Business 101 or 
even SOX requirements -

Cost / benefit analysis....    Office 2007 cost 3x (12x?) more to 
operate, does it provide 3x more utility in return ? Better still, 
Office 2007 VS OpenOffice.

Same goes for Vista vs. XP, or better still Vista vs. Linux (pick your 
distro)

If they were really doing their job, they would see the hardware they 
invested in is not tied to an OS / Office suite that cost them millions 
per year in acquisition cost and many times more  in AV. / maintenance / 
performance costs.

-dave

Michael Rudas wrote:

>LOL
>
>I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
>perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
>Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
>anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
>spyware, and wasted computer power...
>
>"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
>Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
>processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
>(Office 2000)."
><http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>
>
>~~ Mikey
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 17 14:22:54 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:22:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <666757.68830.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes I was in a shop where I thought I had professional digression I asked every body in my group if it was okay to use Linux & MySQL for a project. After it was approved the tech manager forced Microsoft down on us.

They ended up paying a whole lot more money.

David

----- Original Message ----
From: Dave Arbogast <mdlug2 at arb.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:42:43 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


What really amazes me is nearly all CIO's are forgetting Business 101
 or 
even SOX requirements -

Cost / benefit analysis....    Office 2007 cost 3x (12x?) more to 
operate, does it provide 3x more utility in return ? Better still, 
Office 2007 VS OpenOffice.

Same goes for Vista vs. XP, or better still Vista vs. Linux (pick your 
distro)

If they were really doing their job, they would see the hardware they 
invested in is not tied to an OS / Office suite that cost them millions
 
per year in acquisition cost and many times more  in AV. / maintenance
 / 
performance costs.

-dave

Michael Rudas wrote:

>LOL
>
>I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
>perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
>Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
>anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
>spyware, and wasted computer power...
>
>"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
>Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
>processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
>(Office 2000)."
><http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>
>
>~~ Mikey
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. 
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
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From mdlug2 at arb.net  Sat Nov 17 14:33:06 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:33:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <666757.68830.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <666757.68830.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <473F41F2.60308@arb.net>

Like most places I have been, the CIO probably lacked vision and 
leadership. It is cut-throat at that level and they are usually more 
concerned about keeping the Thiefdom.

-dave

David Lane wrote:

> Yes I was in a shop where I thought I had professional digression I 
> asked every body in my group if it was okay to use Linux & MySQL for a 
> project. After it was approved the tech manager forced Microsoft down 
> on us.
>
> They ended up paying a whole lot more money.
>
> David
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dave Arbogast <mdlug2 at arb.net>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:42:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
>
> What really amazes me is nearly all CIO's are forgetting Business 101 or
> even SOX requirements -
>
> Cost / benefit analysis....    Office 2007 cost 3x (12x?) more to
> operate, does it provide 3x more utility in return ? Better still,
> Office 2007 VS OpenOffice.
>
> Same goes for Vista vs. XP, or better still Vista vs. Linux (pick your
> distro)
>
> If they were really doing their job, they would see the hardware they
> invested in is not tied to an OS / Office suite that cost them millions
> per year in acquisition cost and many times more  in AV. / maintenance /
> performance costs.
>
> -dave
>
> Michael Rudas wrote:
>
> >LOL
> >
> >I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
> >perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
> >Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
> >anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
> >spyware, and wasted computer power...
> >
> >"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
> >Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
> >processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
> >(Office 2000)."
> ><http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>
> >
> >~~ Mikey
> >_______________________________________________
> >mdlug mailing list
> >mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> > 
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. 
> Try it now. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51731/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ> 
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
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From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Sat Nov 17 15:27:57 2007
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:27:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Saturday 17 November 2007, Wolfger wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost
> > effective in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost
> > is passed onto the endusers THAT is not fair.
>
> I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
> tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
> agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
> machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
> need for more powerful computers.

I forget where I read this, but some book defined the GUI as "The hardware 
manufacuturer's best friend."

You don't need a tinfoil hat and a conspiracy theory to deduce that CPU makers 
want to increase CPU usage, its an explict goal of Intel. They have admitted 
it is what's behind them pushing multimedia PC use since at least the mid 
90s.

While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS 
alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at 
both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office. 
Here's one example: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480

I also recall ESR arguing in the Art of Unix Programming against spending 
programming time on software optimization vs adding new features, especially 
when the answer to most complaints about slow software is just wait till the 
next CPU version.

* Software bloat is also arguably NOT bad. Not many of us still run Windows 98 
or Slackware 4 these days.

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 16:57:47 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:57:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
> While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
> alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
> both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
> Here's one example: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480
>

I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -
hundreds to thousands of them required per sheet.  There would be a
display sheet that would present the data in a user friendly format
(all formulas), a hidden sheet with the raw data (no formulas), and
another hidden sheet that processed the data into groups (all
formulas).  One of the generated sheets consisted of 1500 rows and 12
columns with about 30,000 complex formulas to present that data.

Keep in mind JExcelAPI does not pre-calculate formulas.  Therefore
whenever the spreadsheet is opened for the first time all formulas are
calculated.

Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.

I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
the right tool for the right job.  OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.

Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Nov 17 14:06:36 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:06:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <473F3623.7030304@arb.net>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
	<473F3623.7030304@arb.net>
Message-ID: <473F3BBC.40902@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> What really amazes me is nearly all CIO's are forgetting Business 101 or 
> even SOX requirements -
> 
> Cost / benefit analysis....    Office 2007 cost 3x (12x?) more to 
> operate, does it provide 3x more utility in return ? Better still, 
> Office 2007 VS OpenOffice.
> 

This is called "addiction"

> Same goes for Vista vs. XP, or better still Vista vs. Linux (pick your 
> distro)
> 
> If they were really doing their job, they would see the hardware they 
> invested in is not tied to an OS / Office suite that cost them millions 
> per year in acquisition cost and many times more  in AV. / maintenance / 
> performance costs.
> 




From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Nov 17 20:34:10 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:34:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
>> While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
>> alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
>> both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
>
> I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
> spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -

o_O

> Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
> shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
> was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
> would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
> progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
> could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
> seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.

So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
All I can say is: wow.

> I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
> the right tool for the right job.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
QuattroPro does.

> OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
> to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.

Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.

> OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.

Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
<http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 21:48:55 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:48:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711171848p58bc9d58g600fae5723fc0c1c@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 4:57 PM, Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
> Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
> shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
> was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
> would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
> progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
> could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
> seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.

I had a similar experience a few years ago.  I haven't tested it since
but I suspect it's a lot better.
http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=23172


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Sun Nov 18 02:43:51 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:43:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <473FED37.6050605@arb.net>

Guys,

Those with gray hair like me, do you remember what happened back when M$ 
released Excel version 4 for the Mac OS and they wanted EVERYONE to 
upgrade from Excel 3 ???   Those that did not upgrade but still 
exchanged files between 2 computers - one with Excel 3, the other with 
Excel 4, suffered catastrophic corruption of the hard drive. This 
appeared to the user like the HD had gone belly up.  I invested many 
hours to recover the data from such hard drives. It is still the same 
company and the developers from then (circa 1990) are likely development 
managers now for the next batch of Excel developers.

-dave

Michael Corral wrote:

>2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>  
>
>>On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
>>>alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
>>>both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
>>>      
>>>
>>I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
>>spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -
>>    
>>
>
>o_O
>
>  
>
>>Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
>>shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
>>was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
>>would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
>>progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
>>could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
>>seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.
>>    
>>
>
>So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
>as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
>of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
>created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
>and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
>All I can say is: wow.
>
>  
>
>>I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
>>the right tool for the right job.
>>    
>>
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
>instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
>the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
>complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
>QuattroPro does.
>
>  
>
>>OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
>>to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>>    
>>
>
>Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
>using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.
>
>  
>
>>OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>>    
>>
>
>Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
>to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
><http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
>Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p
>
>Michael
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 18 09:13:18 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:13:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <446358.21594.qm@web37909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That may be but the rush to market, and the optimizing pass in development is costly when non development staff  says we have got to put this thing off.  


 
----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:58:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost
 effective
> in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is
 passed
> onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
need for more powerful computers.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Nov 17 21:59:35 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:59:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711171848p58bc9d58g600fae5723fc0c1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<b02c40e90711171848p58bc9d58g600fae5723fc0c1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473FAA97.8000605@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2007 4:57 PM, Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
>> shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
>> was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
>> would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
>> progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
>> could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
>> seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.
> 
> I had a similar experience a few years ago.  I haven't tested it since
> but I suspect it's a lot better.
> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=23172

On the other hand, Open Office opens OpenOffice spreadsheets
quite quickly.  Any clue why that is?




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Nov 18 05:41:19 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 05:41:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <473FED37.6050605@arb.net>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<473FED37.6050605@arb.net>
Message-ID: <474016CF.6070605@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> Guys,
> 
> Those with gray hair like me, do you remember what happened back when M$ 
> released Excel version 4 for the Mac OS and they wanted EVERYONE to 
> upgrade from Excel 3 ???   Those that did not upgrade but still 
> exchanged files between 2 computers - one with Excel 3, the other with 
> Excel 4, suffered catastrophic corruption of the hard drive. This 
> appeared to the user like the HD had gone belly up.  I invested many 
> hours to recover the data from such hard drives. It is still the same 
> company and the developers from then (circa 1990) are likely development 
> managers now for the next batch of Excel developers.
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^

Dave, you misspelled "computer vandals"


> 
> -dave
> 
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> 2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>>   
>>> On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
>>>     
>>>> While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
>>>> alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
>>>> both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
>>>>       
>>> I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
>>> spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -
>>>     
>>
>> o_O
>>
>>   
>>> Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
>>> shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
>>> was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
>>> would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
>>> progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
>>> could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
>>> seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.
>>>     
>>
>> So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
>> as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
>> of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
>> created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
>> and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
>> All I can say is: wow.
>>
>>   
>>> I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
>>> the right tool for the right job.
>>>     
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
>> instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
>> the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
>> complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
>> QuattroPro does.
>>
>>   
>>> OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
>>> to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>>>     
>>
>> Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
>> using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.
>>
>>   
>>> OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>>>     
>>
>> Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
>> to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
>> <http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
>> Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p
>>
>> Michael




From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 18:21:36 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:21:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 8:34 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> 2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
> as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
> of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
> created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
> and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
> All I can say is: wow.

I'm complaining that an open source alternative that claims to support
Excel and it's formulas shouldn't need to be so inefficient.  None of
the formulas used were custom, they were all standard Excel formulas
such as vlookup, sum, etc. etc.

>
> > I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
> > the right tool for the right job.
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
> instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
> the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
> complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
> QuattroPro does.

Because the spec asked for Excel spreadsheets that could also be
opened in OpenOffice.  Therefore .xls files are the answer.

>
> > OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
> > to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>
> Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
> using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.

OpenOffice was being used with one of the intentions it was designed
for: to open, read, and manipulate Excel spreadsheets.  My only
complaint is that it was so damn slow and inefficient.

> > OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>
> Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
> to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
> <http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
> Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p

If they do and a client points it out to us, well, I've already
collated all the documentation necessary to say "we can't do anything
about it." :)

I'm not looking to cause a religious war or flame thread here, I was
just backing up Brian Hurley's link with real life experience. (
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480 )

Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Nov 18 20:48:57 2007
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:48:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4740EB89.7090203@arb.net>



Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

>On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
>  
>
>>While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
>>alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
>>both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
>>Here's one example: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480
>>
>>    
>>
>
>I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
>spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -
>hundreds to thousands of them required per sheet.  There would be a
>display sheet that would present the data in a user friendly format
>(all formulas), a hidden sheet with the raw data (no formulas), and
>another hidden sheet that processed the data into groups (all
>formulas).  One of the generated sheets consisted of 1500 rows and 12
>columns with about 30,000 complex formulas to present that data.
>
>Keep in mind JExcelAPI does not pre-calculate formulas.  Therefore
>whenever the spreadsheet is opened for the first time all formulas are
>calculated.
>
>Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
>shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
>was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
>would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
>progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
>could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
>seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.
>
>I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
>the right tool for the right job.  OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
>to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>
>Clinton
>
>  
>
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From brian at dangerbacon.com  Sun Nov 18 21:01:29 2007
From: brian at dangerbacon.com (Brian)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:01:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711182101.33501.brian@dangerbacon.com>

On Sunday 18 November 2007 06:21:36 pm Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2007 8:34 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> > 2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> > So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
> > as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
> > of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
> > created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
> > and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
> > All I can say is: wow.
>
> I'm complaining that an open source alternative that claims to support
> Excel and it's formulas shouldn't need to be so inefficient.  None of
> the formulas used were custom, they were all standard Excel formulas
> such as vlookup, sum, etc. etc.
>

If they're all standard formulas, I wonder how other non-java-bloated 
alternatives would fare (e.g, gnumeric, koffice).  

-- 
Brian
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From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Nov 18 20:30:08 2007
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:30:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <473B4D08.9030505@ksimachine.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<473B4D08.9030505@ksimachine.com>
Message-ID: <4740E720.5010401@arb.net>

Dean, any luck with the boss and squid, or did you have to choose 
another route ?

-dave

Joe St.Clair wrote:

> I agree with others and would suggest you learn Squid. 
> It can be setup as a blind proxy, has caching ability, is fairly fast 
> and is not hard to learn.
> I have a script that updates several lists I use.  The update script 
> runs at night.  It updates "porn" and "ad servers" lists.
> I also use "Webalizer - Squid" and "Sarg" to automate the reports of 
> what Squid is doing.
> In the past 6-12 months I have only had to make a couple of minor 
> adjustments, everything else is handled by the automated scripts.
>
>
> Joe
>
> Dean Durant wrote:
>
>> Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, 
>> and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    
>> Presently we have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't 
>> understand exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   
>> The new boss says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something 
>> simpler than squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy 
>> features of squid, and so don't need that.   He said, "find something 
>> else."   It doesn't have to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I 
>> appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks, Dean
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Nov 18 21:26:50 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:26:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4740F46A.7000407@hotpop.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2007 8:34 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>> 2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>> So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
>> as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
>> of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
>> created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
>> and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
>> All I can say is: wow.
> 
> I'm complaining that an open source alternative that claims to support
> Excel and it's formulas shouldn't need to be so inefficient.

Considering that even the  internal FORMAT of all office
files is trade secret, and oftentimes, not even well
documented within Microsoft itself, you expect a
reverse-engineered implementation to be just as efficient
why, exactly?


> None of
> the formulas used were custom, they were all standard Excel formulas
> such as vlookup, sum, etc. etc.

Yes, but who knows WHAT Microsoft's algorithms in Excel
look like?  Of the times that I've seen code snippets from
Microsoft released for public viewing, it's looked pretty
cludgy...which is often-times fast in particular instances,
but can lead to complete lockups in others, because of
lack of error-checking, etc.

> 
>>> I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
>>> the right tool for the right job.
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
>> instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
>> the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
>> complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
>> QuattroPro does.
> 
> Because the spec asked for Excel spreadsheets that could also be
> opened in OpenOffice.  Therefore .xls files are the answer.
>

So the OpenOffice people are supposed to be super-heroes of
the programming world to fulfill the expectations of someone
at your place of work who wrote a ludicrous spec?


>>> OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
>>> to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>> Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
>> using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.
> 
> OpenOffice was being used with one of the intentions it was designed
> for: to open, read, and manipulate Excel spreadsheets.  My only
> complaint is that it was so damn slow and inefficient.

Well, that's what freakin' happens when you're dealing
with file formats that are trade secrets, and have to
be reverse-engineered .... lots of code kludges get into
the file import filter, because the spec itself is most
likely kludgey (and if you want proof, check on the
debate about the misleadingly-named "openXML" kind-of-
but-not-really-a-spec which is nothing more than an
xml-ization of the Office internal formats.

It's clear as mud, with takes like <DoLikeWord95>,
with no explanation or definition of how Word95
supposedly did it.

> 
>>> OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>> Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
>> to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
>> <http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
>> Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p
> 
> If they do and a client points it out to us, well, I've already
> collated all the documentation necessary to say "we can't do anything
> about it." :)

We can't do anything about it until Microsoft stops keeping
secrets about how YOUR DATA is stored by their software.

> 
> I'm not looking to cause a religious war or flame thread here, I was
> just backing up Brian Hurley's link with real life experience. (
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480 )

Your complaints are PRECISELY the argument against
secret file formats -- why do you find any of this
in the least bit surprising?

> 
> Clinton
> 





From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 22:31:12 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:31:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <200711182101.33501.brian@dangerbacon.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711182101.33501.brian@dangerbacon.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711181931v77d41745vf0a7bff5c05c9f26@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 18, 2007 9:01 PM, Brian <brian at dangerbacon.com> wrote:
> If they're all standard formulas, I wonder how other non-java-bloated
> alternatives would fare (e.g, gnumeric, koffice).

Or even Google Docs.


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 22:57:48 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:57:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <4740F46A.7000407@hotpop.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4740F46A.7000407@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590711181957r2bec36cdv37d8bf30139ec207@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 18, 2007 9:26 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Your complaints are PRECISELY the argument against
> secret file formats -- why do you find any of this
> in the least bit surprising?

Why are we even debating?  We both agree on the fundamental points.
Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 19 08:38:28 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:38:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff. It
also has a unique look, simple but pleasing graphics. For that price, I think it's
well worth picking up. I got it for full price when it came out and I don't feel
cheated. As a bonus, it doesn't take up GB of space on disk; the environments are
fractal and the data files small.

 The Linux install is here: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/support/linux.html

 ...but here are a couple minor complications. First, this particular version
doesn't install cleanly; the distributor didn't package it the way the authors
intended. So you need a workaround:

 http://forums.introversion.co.uk/darwinia/viewtopic.php?t=3417&sid=1f9b8b36e8711f1384f5dbb0dff6a479

 Also, on my Ubuntu 7.06 system one of the shared libraries it comes with doesn't
play nice with the rest of the system, but I just renamed the file and the version
that came with Ubuntu works just fine. Can't remember which library offhand but
there's only about four, and if you get this problem the error message will include
the library name in it.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                (313) 227-2317

   "History never repeats itself, but it often rhymes." 
                    - Mark Twain
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From wolfger at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 09:18:22 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:18:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711190618w6127bc9xc9f46ca100568ad6@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff.

I played a free demo version of Darwinia once. It was indeed
"different". I think it's well worth $4, at any rate.

>  Also, on my Ubuntu 7.06 system one of the shared libraries it comes with doesn't
> play nice with the rest of the system, but I just renamed the file and the version
> that came with Ubuntu works just fine. Can't remember which library offhand but
> there's only about four, and if you get this problem the error message will include
> the library name in it.

Ubuntu 7.06? Was that Gutsy's Alpha release? ;-)
Yes, this is one of the bittersweet realities of Linux: too many
different ways of doing things makes it difficult for a vendor to
package software that works flawlessly everywhere. On the other hand,
you can at least fix it if something doesn't work, unlike certain
other proprietary systems where if it doesn't run, you're just out of
luck...


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 19 09:21:02 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:21:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <200711170904.46477.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <20071119142735.1F9B21412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Brian Hurley
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:05 AM
> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
> Cc: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
> 
> On Saturday 17 November 2007, Michael Rudas wrote:
> > LOL
> >
> > I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
> > perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by 
> > Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an 
> > anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans, 
> > spyware, and wasted computer power...
> >
> > "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed 
> on Windows  
> >Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much  
> >processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short 
> years ago  
> >(Office 2000)."
> > 
> ><http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-micro
> soft-taket
> >h-aw
> >ay.html>
> 
> I wonder how many X memory and processing power KDE or GNOME 
> system using Star/Open Office has increased since 2000. 
> Bloatware isn't a MS-only phenomenon.
> 
> --
> Brian Hurley
> Detroit Industrial Underground
> www.detroitindustrial.org
> 

	I'm taking a DBA course in which we are using Oracle 10g running on
a VMWare Player ran Windows Server 2003.

	The classroom is decked out with brand spanking new dual-core
workstations with 1GB of RAM, Windows Vista and all other other latest bells
and whistles. The default setup on these machines are pretty lean and thus
should run pretty mean.

	As a test for personal interest, I upgrade the HD on my laptop for
the space, tossed OpenSuSe 10.3 and VMWare Player and pulled up the VM
Windows 2003 Server. While hardly a rigorous scientific test, I can say that
the VM (on my single core 4+ year old laptop, also with 1GB of RAM) performs
roughly 3 times faster under OpenSuSe 10.3 than is does under Windows Vista
on a brand spanking new dual-core system. (Not that this should matter, both
the laptop and the workstation at the school are Dell systems.)

	Oracle 10g uses a number of Java programs for GUI access to the DBMS
and under OpenSuSe10.3, those open up within 30 seconds. Under the VM on
WinVista, they can take upwards of 3 minutes to launch.

	I am running KDE as my primary desktop and while I was also running
OpenOffice2.x while running the VM to cut/paste elements into the VM that
were needed for populating a table within the DB and also to answer the
provided questions for the lab work.

	Anyway, the sigficant difference in bloat between Microsoft products
and Open Source products has a great deal more to do with the underlying
development model than anything else.

	Open Source software isn't designed to force users into a corner by
tying everything together in a way that makes picking and choosing elements
to run difficult to impossible. Open Source software is very modular,
OpenOffice, for example, doesn't give a rat's behind what you are running it
on top of. It isn't looking for secret hooks in the file browser, it isn't
seeking special options specific to it buried within the kernel, it just
does it's job, which is to run as an office application suite.

	Microsoft software, as found in the "Findings of Fact" from the
trial that convicted them of abusing monopoly powers, is written with secret
hooks and undocumented elements in otherwise completely unrelated libraries
to tie all of their software together. This has added unnecssary complexity
to the software development process.

	As myself and many others have speculated, since the "Findings of
Fact" and prior to that documents existnece, this development model was
destined to bite Microsoft on the ass harder then anything. It appears, with
Windows Vista, that this is happening.

	Perhaps the only interesting thing to come out of the Vista
development process is that Microsoft is "seeing the light" and with their
next edition of Windows has been currently claiming to be following a
significantly more modular design model. From what I have seen, they are
even going so far as to claim that this development model is new and novel.
As if the entire history of the development of UNIX and Linux as well as
many other truly modular development models simply never existed.

	Sorry for rambling,
	Rob



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 09:30:50 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 06:30:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
Message-ID: <314824.64144.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Speaking of Linux Games My al time favorite I saw Decent 3  on line for sale for 11.00 for Linux.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:18:22 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4


On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
 wrote:
> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale
 at our local
> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for
 download, and runs
> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the
 usual stuff.

I played a free demo version of Darwinia once. It was indeed
"different". I think it's well worth $4, at any rate.

>  Also, on my Ubuntu 7.06 system one of the shared libraries it comes
 with doesn't
> play nice with the rest of the system, but I just renamed the file
 and the version
> that came with Ubuntu works just fine. Can't remember which library
 offhand but
> there's only about four, and if you get this problem the error
 message will include
> the library name in it.

Ubuntu 7.06? Was that Gutsy's Alpha release? ;-)
Yes, this is one of the bittersweet realities of Linux: too many
different ways of doing things makes it difficult for a vendor to
package software that works flawlessly everywhere. On the other hand,
you can at least fix it if something doesn't work, unlike certain
other proprietary systems where if it doesn't run, you're just out of
luck...


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






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Make Yahoo! your homepage.
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From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 10:05:26 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:05:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a headline for you:

"90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
<http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>

Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.

It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
since sliced bread!!!"  Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
Death Watch"
<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>

~~ Mikey


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 10:26:21 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:26:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a Windows pc?

David 
 

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG <wftl-lug at salmar.com>; MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:05:26 AM
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


Here's a headline for you:

"90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
<http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>

Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.

It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
since sliced bread!!!"  Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
Death Watch"
<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>

~~ Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 19 10:30:48 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:30:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071119153721.D8A851412E@impelind.com>

VNC

There's clients for both Windows and Linux as well as servers for both
Windows and Linux.

-Rob 

________________________________

	From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On
Behalf Of David Lane
	Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:26 AM
	To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
	Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
	
	
	Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from
a Windows pc?
	
	David 
	 
	
	
	----- Original Message ----
	From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
	To: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG <wftl-lug at salmar.com>;
MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
	Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:05:26 AM
	Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
	
	Here's a headline for you:
	
	"90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
	
<http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/
index.cfm?newsid=6258>
	
	Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this
is
	REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
	alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.
	
	It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
	every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
	since sliced bread!!!"  Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
	troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
	Death Watch"
	<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>
	
	~~ Mikey
	_______________________________________________
	mdlug mailing list
	mdlug at mdlug.org
	http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
	


________________________________

	Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile.
Try it now.
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51731/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_q
DKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ> 




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 19 13:06:31 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:06:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <20071119142735.1F9B21412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Anyway, the sigficant difference in bloat between Microsoft products
> and Open Source products has a great deal more to do with the 
> underlying development model than anything else.

 Exactly, and as you point out MS is finally realizing their development model
is unsustainable. When you're dealing with over 50 million lines of code (the
current conservative estimate for Vista) modularity is *vital* - humans simply
cannot manage that kind of codebase if it doesn't have clean lines of separation
based on functionality.

 Vista was *years* late, and they literally had to throw away their work and start
over in the middle of the process - with greatly reduced ambitions - just to
manage to ship *something*. And, as it turns out, it's not something anyone really
wants.

 Open-source software is almost universally modular, because that's the only
practical way for disparate groups of people to work on a large codebase. As a
bonus, it makes the whole system easier to think about and tends to localize
bugs, making them easier to find and fix.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                      (313) 227-2317

 [Y]ou notice he said "do not destroy oil wells" before "do not
  use weapons of mass destruction"? - Tom Tomorrow, on Bush's
                ultimatum to Saddam Hussein
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 19 13:08:22 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:08:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <4740F46A.7000407@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> Considering that even the  internal FORMAT of all office
> files is trade secret, and oftentimes, not even well
> documented within Microsoft itself, you expect a
> reverse-engineered implementation to be just as efficient
> why, exactly?

 I have to agree; it's not at all surprising that OpenOffice isn't as
efficient handling MS formats as MS products are. That said, the trajectory,
as even the cited links points out, is very much in favor of OO long term.
It's improving faster than Office is.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 If you get an email that says, "FORWARD THIS IMMEDIATELY TO ALL
 YOUR FRIENDS, *RIGHT NOW*!", don't. It's a hoax, I guarantee it.
                             - Me
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 19 13:25:56 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:25:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael Rudas

> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
> alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.

 Yeah, MS painted themselves into a corner here. Vista is *shockingly* hungry for
resources, and doesn't really offer any substantial advantages over the previous
version, XP. This holds for *both* of Windows' main markets, 'office workers' and
'games'. I don't recall OEM's ever before demanding the ability to ship the old
version of Windows (i.e. XP) instead of the new one. (They can't count on Moore's
Law to help them too much, either... PC specs have hit a level where even a cheap
PC has the capacity to do the kinds of things most people want PCs to do. That
means the price for Windows is a significant, noticeable part of the total price.)

 MS has sunk a lot of money into Vista, and bet a lot of their future technology
and marketing on it. If it doesn't take hold, a lot of their other strategies (e.g.
media PCs and such) become irrelevant. They can't afford to put too much effort into
XP support lest it steal oxygen from Vista takeup... and Vista takeup is already
wheezing badly. But if they don't support XP, particularly security-wise, it will
drive people away from XP. And since they don't want Vista, they will look at other
alternatives... which are quite mature and capable of handling the needs of the vast
majority of users.

 So... it'll be interesting. Expect MS to fast-track the next version, but their
development culture and codebase just is not suited to 'fast' development. They're
targeting 2009 I hear, but expect 2010 at *absolute minimum*, and that's only if
they dump features.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 13:33:45 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:33:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <87944.49817.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is a good time to push Linux.  

Is there a "Linux in Business Conference" in the Detroit area?

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: "Ingles, Raymond" <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 1:25:56 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


> From: Michael Rudas

> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this
 is
> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
> alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.

 Yeah, MS painted themselves into a corner here. Vista is *shockingly*
 hungry for
resources, and doesn't really offer any substantial advantages over the
 previous
version, XP. This holds for *both* of Windows' main markets, 'office
 workers' and
'games'. I don't recall OEM's ever before demanding the ability to ship
 the old
version of Windows (i.e. XP) instead of the new one. (They can't count
 on Moore's
Law to help them too much, either... PC specs have hit a level where
 even a cheap
PC has the capacity to do the kinds of things most people want PCs to
 do. That
means the price for Windows is a significant, noticeable part of the
 total price.)

 MS has sunk a lot of money into Vista, and bet a lot of their future
 technology
and marketing on it. If it doesn't take hold, a lot of their other
 strategies (e.g.
media PCs and such) become irrelevant. They can't afford to put too
 much effort into
XP support lest it steal oxygen from Vista takeup... and Vista takeup
 is already
wheezing badly. But if they don't support XP, particularly
 security-wise, it will
drive people away from XP. And since they don't want Vista, they will
 look at other
alternatives... which are quite mature and capable of handling the
 needs of the vast
majority of users.

 So... it'll be interesting. Expect MS to fast-track the next version,
 but their
development culture and codebase just is not suited to 'fast'
 development. They're
targeting 2009 I hear, but expect 2010 at *absolute minimum*, and
 that's only if
they dump features.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only.
 It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the
 named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or
 disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify
 us immediately and then destroy it.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
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From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 14:56:57 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:56:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Here's a headline for you:
>
> "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
> <http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>
>
> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
> alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.
>
> It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
> every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
> since sliced bread!!!"  

Obviously sliced bread isn't that good if that is indeed the case.



> Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
> troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
> Death Watch"
> <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>
>   

I simply seriously object to having something I do not want shoved down
my throat.  I can't buy a new laptop for example without paying the
Vista Tax.  I want a new laptop and really need one.  But there is that
Vista tax and it really sticks in my craw.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 15:00:10 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:00:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <4741EB4A.3050200@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Open-source software is almost universally modular, because that's the only
> practical way for disparate groups of people to work on a large codebase. As a
> bonus, it makes the whole system easier to think about and tends to localize
> bugs, making them easier to find and fix.
>   

Software as Lego.  Use the right bricks that you need for the thing you
want.  Don't use the bricks you don't need.  Each brick is simple.  Many
simple bricks makes for a complex thing that is still made of simple
parts that can be dealt with.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 14:56:25 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:56:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <20071119142735.1F9B21412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071119142735.1F9B21412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <4741EA69.5050100@hotpop.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
>> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Brian Hurley
>> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:05 AM
>> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
>> Cc: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG
>> Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
>>
>> On Saturday 17 November 2007, Michael Rudas wrote:
>>> LOL
>>>
>>> I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
>>> perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by 
>>> Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an 
>>> anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans, 
>>> spyware, and wasted computer power...
>>>
>>> "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed 
>> on Windows  
>>> Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much  
>>> processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short 
>> years ago  
>>> (Office 2000)."
>>>
>>> <http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-micro
>> soft-taket
>>> h-aw
>>> ay.html>
>> I wonder how many X memory and processing power KDE or GNOME 
>> system using Star/Open Office has increased since 2000. 
>> Bloatware isn't a MS-only phenomenon.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Hurley
>> Detroit Industrial Underground
>> www.detroitindustrial.org
>>
> 
> 	I'm taking a DBA course in which we are using Oracle 10g running on
> a VMWare Player ran Windows Server 2003.
> 
> 	The classroom is decked out with brand spanking new dual-core
> workstations with 1GB of RAM, Windows Vista and all other other latest bells
> and whistles. The default setup on these machines are pretty lean and thus
> should run pretty mean.
> 
> 	As a test for personal interest, I upgrade the HD on my laptop for
> the space, tossed OpenSuSe 10.3 and VMWare Player and pulled up the VM
> Windows 2003 Server. While hardly a rigorous scientific test, I can say that
> the VM (on my single core 4+ year old laptop, also with 1GB of RAM) performs
> roughly 3 times faster under OpenSuSe 10.3 than is does under Windows Vista
> on a brand spanking new dual-core system. (Not that this should matter, both
> the laptop and the workstation at the school are Dell systems.)
> 
> 	Oracle 10g uses a number of Java programs for GUI access to the DBMS
> and under OpenSuSe10.3, those open up within 30 seconds. Under the VM on
> WinVista, they can take upwards of 3 minutes to launch.
> 
> 	I am running KDE as my primary desktop and while I was also running
> OpenOffice2.x while running the VM to cut/paste elements into the VM that
> were needed for populating a table within the DB and also to answer the
> provided questions for the lab work.
> 
> 	Anyway, the sigficant difference in bloat between Microsoft products
> and Open Source products has a great deal more to do with the underlying
> development model than anything else.
> 
> 	Open Source software isn't designed to force users into a corner by
> tying everything together in a way that makes picking and choosing elements
> to run difficult to impossible. Open Source software is very modular,
> OpenOffice, for example, doesn't give a rat's behind what you are running it
> on top of. It isn't looking for secret hooks in the file browser, it isn't
> seeking special options specific to it buried within the kernel, it just
> does it's job, which is to run as an office application suite.
> 
> 	Microsoft software, as found in the "Findings of Fact" from the
> trial that convicted them of abusing monopoly powers, is written with secret
> hooks and undocumented elements in otherwise completely unrelated libraries
> to tie all of their software together. This has added unnecssary complexity
> to the software development process.
> 
> 	As myself and many others have speculated, since the "Findings of
> Fact" and prior to that documents existnece, this development model was
> destined to bite Microsoft on the ass harder then anything. It appears, with
> Windows Vista, that this is happening.
> 
> 	Perhaps the only interesting thing to come out of the Vista
> development process is that Microsoft is "seeing the light" and with their
> next edition of Windows has been currently claiming to be following a
> significantly more modular design model. From what I have seen, they are
> even going so far as to claim that this development model is new and novel.
> As if the entire history of the development of UNIX and Linux as well as
> many other truly modular development models simply never existed.

Well, of course.  At Microsoft's marketing offices, the
ONLY computing which has ever existed is the MS platforms.

On a somewhat related note, MS never claims that they are
selling the most powerful OS -- **ONLY** that they are
selling the most powerful version of Windows.  Same for
all of their other products.


> 
> 	Sorry for rambling,
> 	Rob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 14:59:43 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:59:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
References: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4741EB2F.7020804@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Michael Rudas wrote:
>> Here's a headline for you:
>>
>> "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
>> <http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>
>>
>> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
>> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
>> alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.
>>
>> It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
>> every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
>> since sliced bread!!!"  
> 
> Obviously sliced bread isn't that good if that is indeed the case.
> 
> 
> 
>> Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
>> troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
>> Death Watch"
>> <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>
>>   
> 
> I simply seriously object to having something I do not want shoved down
> my throat.  I can't buy a new laptop for example without paying the
> Vista Tax.  I want a new laptop and really need one.  But there is that
> Vista tax and it really sticks in my craw.

http://www.google.com/linux  and search for laptop






From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 15:06:30 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:06:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <4741ECC6.401@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Yeah, MS painted themselves into a corner here. Vista is *shockingly* hungry for
> resources, and doesn't really offer any substantial advantages over the previous
> version, XP.


Hoorah for us.  I got to watch a salesman try to "sell Vista" when he
knew he was talking to someone that knew better.  Squirm, squirm.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 19 15:05:15 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:05:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20071119201149.7F3851412E@impelind.com>

What about the company "Emperor Linux" or something.

They advertise in one of the Linux rags. They sell laptops with Linux
pre-installed. They might have some that lack the "Vista tax".

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 2:57 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
> 
> Michael Rudas wrote:
> > Here's a headline for you:
> >
> > "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
> > 
> <http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications
> > /news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>
> >
> > Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very 
> least this is 
> > REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing 
> to look at 
> > alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.
> >
> > It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in 
> > every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing 
> > since sliced bread!!!"
> 
> Obviously sliced bread isn't that good if that is indeed the case.
> 
> 
> 
> > Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
> > troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista 
> > Death Watch"
> > <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>
> >   
> 
> I simply seriously object to having something I do not want 
> shoved down my throat.  I can't buy a new laptop for example 
> without paying the Vista Tax.  I want a new laptop and really 
> need one.  But there is that Vista tax and it really sticks 
> in my craw.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Star Trek mort. 
> Viva la Star Trek admiraetur The Olde Phoenix Inn 
> Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 15:13:55 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Okay, is there any one out there willing to help put on a "Linux/Open Source conference"?

I am currently commuting from Long Island NY to Detroit, not much time. Buy I'm willing to squeeze in some time for something that will help Detroit area business owners be more cost effective and flexible.  

And this Vista thing is a great marketing tool. :)

David 



----- Original Message ----
From: Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 3:06:30 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Yeah, MS painted themselves into a corner here. Vista is
 *shockingly* hungry for
> resources, and doesn't really offer any substantial advantages over
 the previous
> version, XP.


Hoorah for us.  I got to watch a salesman try to "sell Vista" when he
knew he was talking to someone that knew better.  Squirm, squirm.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com

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From wolfger at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 17:42:17 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:42:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon: liaisons wanted
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711191442w33bf71ddr360db793eed1d18d@mail.gmail.com>

Penguicon is looking for people to act as liaison for Jono Bacon and
Benjamin Mako Hill. Liaison description is as follows. Contact
molly.deblanc at gmail.com if you're interested.

A liaison is required to accompany their guest to all events at which
the guest is supposed to be at, ensuring their presence. The liaison
is also supposed to make sure that their GoH gets three meals a day
(or two and a snack or however they eat. Make sure they have a
substantial enough caloric intake to not pass out.) Liaisons also run
errands for their GoHs. This last one is usually not too big of a
commitment, maybe a kinkos or drug store run.

Ideally, a liaison will also run transport for their GoH, picking them
up and dropping them off. If they can't do it, that's fine, I'll be
involved in this process and I have a few people willing to do
transport runs. If Liaison are also willing, I'll be arranging for
their hotel rooms to be next to their Guest's. Also, if I have the
cash for it, I'll be picking up ribbons that say "Liaison," "Minion,"
"Lackey," "Handler," or maybe 'CowX," to run with my 'wrangler/cowboy'
theme, with X being a variable standing for something like hand, boy,
girl, etc.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 18:00:12 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:00:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>


> Okay, is there any one out there willing to help put on a "Linux/Open
> Source conference"?

There is one in Columbus, Ohio during September every year.

http://www.ohiolinux.org

> I am currently commuting from Long Island NY to Detroit, not much
> time. Buy I'm willing to squeeze in some time for something that will
> help Detroit area business owners be more cost effective and 
> flexible.  

If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 18:04:42 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:04:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711191504h205d4a35sfaf0d563df21f0f4@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 10:26 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a
> Windows pc?

Xming but note that the SourceForge version is the only truly free
version.  The version on the author's site has restrictions.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xming


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 18:09:29 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:09:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff. It
> also has a unique look, simple but pleasing graphics. For that price, I think it's
> well worth picking up. I got it for full price when it came out and I don't feel
> cheated. As a bonus, it doesn't take up GB of space on disk; the environments are
> fractal and the data files small.
>
>  The Linux install is here: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/support/linux.html


The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?

-Joseph


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 18:28:04 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:28:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.

Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
adding complexity".


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 19:16:31 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:16:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>


> Bottom line is what they care about, Techies are always poor
> sales-people. Even if it is the best thing out there, what the
> resources ever it is.  But New business owners are a different story
> they have no infrastructure to migrate.  
> And NO I do not want to waste my time on people who are not even open
> to listening to sound options. 
> I know first hand that you have to have support from the top in such
> issues.  And at that level Dollars and Cents have the final say.  

No, they don't.  Availability of support, documentation, and talent, as
well as durability of the vendor.

> That is why Microsoft uses FUD.  Microsoft has the resources to fluid
> the market with what ever that want.  
> And at the end of the day meeting the mission in a cost effective
> manner is the best business plan.

Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.

And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
for the pain/expense of Vista.  While techy types get worked up about,
often obscure, security issues most businesses, especially small
business (all small businesses?) just do-not-care.  They don't even
force password changes or strong passwords [I've *never* been in a shop
of less than 50 employees that even had a security policy].  A sane
configuration of XP is actually pretty secure, certainly enough for the
every-man to use.  And it is essentially free [despite all that blather
too - the cost of a desktop machine, M$ tax or no, puts it in the
disposable expense column.  People often pay more for their desk chair].

<aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely undocumented.  GDM
is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your account in 14
days if you don't change your password.... nope.  You can view/edit file
ACLs from nautilus... nope.  Firefox will work with NTLM or Kerberos
authentication for single sign-on to the proxy and/or intranet.... nope.
I could go one.  Despite all the rah-rag about security the support for
good security practices on LINUX sucks.</aside>

> Okay since I don't see any hands: 
> What about a YouTube short like the MAC PC  but as a Linux  PC
> commercial?

Novell already made several;  they are quite good as such things go.
You can download them from at least Novell's site.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 20:21:53 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:21:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192019520.2150@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-19, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
> On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
>> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.
>
> Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
> solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
> energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
> licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
> adding complexity".

And don't forget the standard "booze and hookers" angle.
Corporate execs love that "solution".

Michael


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Mon Nov 19 20:23:44 2007
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:23:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <47423720.6000302@arb.net>


>Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
>most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
>software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
>

Errrr, I take it you have never actually see a M$ Enterprise support 
agreement and the eight figure ransom big business pays for the real 
cost of these "cheep" desktops. If they don't pay, they risk the very 
real probability that malware will take down their business. Then, 
there's the cheeper cost of AV and infection mitigation for the user 
induced events.

AND, if they have an envirornment where a vedor sells them a WIN OS 
embeded device (MF copier, manufacturing machinery, appliance, etc) they 
are at real mercy of the desktop devicing causing interruption of their 
core business when the cheep desktops cause faults - maybe infections - 
of these "turn key" opperations.  Most of these embeded devices never 
get patched and the vendor usually tells the client they can't touch the 
OS. I have seen all of this. It is costing business multi-billions to 
mitigate the risks and clean up after this so call "cheep OS". 

I thought eveyone knows M$ does not make the bulk of their $$$ from 
selling the actual software anymore....

-dave


From danno at umich.edu  Mon Nov 19 21:22:17 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:22:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071120022217.GA54447@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 06:09:29PM -0500, Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?

depends on whether the defender is one of the darwinians.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Nov 19 21:26:15 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:26:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>

David Lane wrote:
> 
> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a
> Windows pc?
> 
> David

Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
Linux running in a VMware player session.

It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
in on Vista.

I'm not sure what facilities cygwin provides but if you just need a
local X environment for the display of remote applications this seems
like a good way to go.

Raymond McLaughlin


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 22:17:29 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:17:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <47423720.6000302@arb.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
Message-ID: <1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>

> >Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
> >most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
> >software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
> Errrr, I take it you have never actually see a M$ Enterprise support 
> agreement and the eight figure ransom big business pays for the real 
> cost of these "cheep" desktops.

Are we talking about enterprises or small/medium businesses?  Seems to
me the mile post in these kind of debates gets switched back and forth
allot.  Enterprises just don't care,  it isn't that expensive relative
to other things.  No small/medium business I've ever encountered has an
M$ support agreement.

> If they don't pay, they risk the very 
> real probability that malware will take down their business. 

Bogus.  I admin a network of ~250 Windows 2000 & XP workstations.  No
support agreement.  The threat of malware is drasitically overstated by
fear mongers and alarmists,  the issue is actually quite easily to deal
with using well-known techniques.  Openness to Open Source solutions
only makes it even easier.  In all the years I've been an admin there
has been one lonely incident of malware disrupting (not shutting down)
normal business and the issue was resolved within hours.
<aside>Fortunately for us our competition was down for a couple of
days. :)</aside>

> Then, there's the cheeper cost of AV and infection mitigation for the user 
> induced events.

Well, the cost of our AV protection solution... $0.00.

> AND, if they have an envirornment where a vedor sells them a WIN OS 
> embeded device (MF copier, manufacturing machinery, appliance, etc) they 
> are at real mercy of the desktop devicing causing interruption of their 
> core business when the cheep desktops cause faults 

Eh?  This doesn't even make sense.  If you have any kind of embedded
device / appliance you are always 110% at the mercy of the vendor.
Nothing changes that.  Fortunately my experience is that most embedded
devices are far too stupid / limited / sealed to respond to malware in
anyway (you're lucky if most "appliances" even manage to do what they
were advertised to do).

> - maybe infections - 
> of these "turn key" opperations.  Most of these embeded devices never 
> get patched and the vendor usually tells the client they can't touch the

Sure, and what does this have to do with Windows vs. LINUX desktops?
The embedded devices are just there - nothing anyone can do about the
bloody things. (I have well over two dozen hosts running NT embedded,
real crap).

> OS. I have seen all of this. It is costing business multi-billions to 
> mitigate the risks and clean up after this so call "cheep OS". 

And I've seen those numbers;  same thing with SPAM... it is costing some
unholy amount of money.  I don't buy it.  If this is true then those
networks are being administered poorly or someone is quite happy to just
fork over buckets of money for someone else to deal with the problem (a
legitimate business solution in some cases [although, I suspect, usually
not]).

> I thought eveyone knows M$ does not make the bulk of their $$$ from 
> selling the actual software anymore....

So?  This is true of IBM, HP, Sun, etc... hardware & software is just a
platform.  The solution is valuable part, so of course that is where the
profit is.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 23:04:31 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:04:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711192004w3aede6f2g67e51d1b91f00fad@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 10:17 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> Are we talking about enterprises or small/medium businesses?  Seems to
> me the mile post in these kind of debates gets switched back and forth
> allot.  Enterprises just don't care,  it isn't that expensive relative
> to other things.  No small/medium business I've ever encountered has an
> M$ support agreement.

It depends on type of business, their reliance on IT, and budget.
Some auto companies still standardize on Win2K even though it was EOL
several years ago.  Many small businesses rely on only one or two apps
(often Quickbooks) and as long as they have a backup of the data a
malware problem can be fixed with a restore CD and a reinstall of the
app.  They are conditioned that malware is normal, just like cars have
flat tires occasionally.

> Bogus.  I admin a network of ~250 Windows 2000 & XP workstations.  No
> support agreement.  The threat of malware is drasitically overstated by
> fear mongers and alarmists,  the issue is actually quite easily to deal
> with using well-known techniques.

It depends on your level of control and the security concerns of the
company management.  If the management has no real clue about security
then their primary requirement is to keep accounting functioning.  If
they are concerned about trade secret theft then entire hardware
lock-down and encryption is required.

The best-laid security plans of a network admin are easily thwarted by
a clueless superior that insists that they need full read/write access
to everything on the network.

In my experience, purely external problems are limited to wireless
intrusions or physical theft.  Everything else has an internal
component and users are almost always the link.

> Well, the cost of our AV protection solution... $0.00.

In a thin-client environment malware is easy to control.  In a typical
fat-client situation the users (especially managers and developers)
often demand local control and install whatever they want.  If
upper-management doesn't allow you full authority over them then
you're stuck with the problem.  Understaffed IT departments don't help
either.

> Eh?  This doesn't even make sense.  If you have any kind of embedded
> device / appliance you are always 110% at the mercy of the vendor.
> Nothing changes that.  Fortunately my experience is that most embedded
> devices are far too stupid / limited / sealed to respond to malware in
> anyway (you're lucky if most "appliances" even manage to do what they
> were advertised to do).

Depends on the device.  A lot of them use Linux and some can be
updated.  HP JetDirect devices have had security issues and updates
can be easily installed.

> Sure, and what does this have to do with Windows vs. LINUX desktops?
> The embedded devices are just there - nothing anyone can do about the
> bloody things. (I have well over two dozen hosts running NT embedded,
> real crap).

Security practices for embedded devices is no different than any other
platform.  Restrict access to those who need it.  If it's a concern
then install a SPI firewall between it and the network.

> And I've seen those numbers;  same thing with SPAM... it is costing some
> unholy amount of money.  I don't buy it.  If this is true then those
> networks are being administered poorly or someone is quite happy to just
> fork over buckets of money for someone else to deal with the problem (a
> legitimate business solution in some cases [although, I suspect, usually
> not]).

The cost depends on the environment but you have to check who is
reporting the numbers.

> So?  This is true of IBM, HP, Sun, etc... hardware & software is just a
> platform.  The solution is valuable part, so of course that is where the
> profit is.

Does Windows Live OneCare count?


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 23:07:52 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:07:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon: liaisons wanted
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330711191442w33bf71ddr360db793eed1d18d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330711191442w33bf71ddr360db793eed1d18d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192253470.3293@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-19, Monsieur Wolfger a ecrit:
> Penguicon is looking for people to act as liaison for Jono Bacon and
> Benjamin Mako Hill.

o_O

> The liaison
> is also supposed to make sure that their GoH gets three meals a day
> (or two and a snack or however they eat. Make sure they have a
> substantial enough caloric intake to not pass out.)

Hmm, if these guys are the usual Linux fatsos then keeping their
expansive bellies full could cost quite a bit. :)

> Liaisons also run
> errands for their GoHs. This last one is usually not too big of a
> commitment, maybe a kinkos or drug store run.

Let's hope that "store" part of the sentence stays in there. :)
You know how those crazy Linux hippies are!

> If Liaison are also willing, I'll be arranging for
> their hotel rooms to be next to their Guest's. Also, if I have the
> cash for it, I'll be picking up ribbons that say "Liaison," "Minion,"
> "Lackey," "Handler," or maybe 'CowX," to run with my 'wrangler/cowboy'
> theme, with X being a variable standing for something like hand, boy,
> girl, etc.

Why is this sounding more and more like an escort service?... :)

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 23:32:39 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:32:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711192032m2ad1c143ja99cbd8ee72a887@mail.gmail.com>

I just found this article about blocking with iptables you might find useful:
http://www.linux.com/feature/121374

There is also this Wikipedia list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Content_Control_Software


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Nov 20 00:48:41 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:48:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711200039440.5173@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-19, Monsieur Michael Rudas a ecrit:
> "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
> <http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>

I think this page pretty much sums up the whole discussion:

http://lolcatgenerator.com/lolcat/339/

Michael


From wolfger at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 05:13:55 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:13:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon: liaisons wanted
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192253470.3293@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <3b00b3330711191442w33bf71ddr360db793eed1d18d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192253470.3293@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711200213x6a6fbaa2q9e167e7ef7c059d9@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 11:07 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> > The liaison
> > is also supposed to make sure that their GoH gets three meals a day
> > (or two and a snack or however they eat. Make sure they have a
> > substantial enough caloric intake to not pass out.)
>
> Hmm, if these guys are the usual Linux fatsos then keeping their
> expansive bellies full could cost quite a bit. :)

Uh.... Nothing particularly flabby about either of these gents. Also,
you aren't expected to *pay* for their food. Just make like a Polish
grandma and say "Eat! Eat!" :-D
There will be free food in the con suite. I would argue that the free
beer and free pop also count as calories. ;-)

> Why is this sounding more and more like an escort service?... :)

I think it's just where your mind is at. It sounded to me an awful lot
like babysitting. But you can be their "beck and call girl" if you
like ;-)

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Tue Nov 20 08:51:49 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:51:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> David Lane wrote:
>> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a
>> Windows pc?
>
> Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
> applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
> have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
> Linux running in a VMware player session.
>
> It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
> this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
> is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
> in on Vista.

Yes, I do this all the time with servers at work.  If I'm on a
Linux workstation, I use ssh to create a tunnel and VNCviewer for
the remote connection.

For Windows (which was the original question) you can do the same
thing.  Use putty to set up an ssh tunnel, and then use VNCviewer
for the remoter connection.

If you need more details about setting up the tunnel or making
the connection, let me know (or do a Google search).

c




From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 10:10:26 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:10:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux. And I'm about to implement web, data, and email servers.

So yes  Full Remotes for both from both.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:26:15 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


David Lane wrote:
> 
> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from
 a
> Windows pc?
> 
> David

Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
Linux running in a VMware player session.

It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
in on Vista.

I'm not sure what facilities cygwin provides but if you just need a
local X environment for the display of remote applications this seems
like a good way to go.

Raymond McLaughlin
_______________________________________________
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http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 10:32:37 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:32:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
Message-ID: <107924.2372.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My hope with every one else on the list is that Linux continues to expand.

When I loaded OpenSUSE 10.3 it had something from HP that helped me with printing. and that is something that I struggled with.

Overall things are better with OpenSUSE 10.3.

David 




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Tue Nov 20 10:39:40 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:39:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
Message-ID: <16761498.1195573181064.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Could you elaborate? What are "something from HP" and "something that I struggled with"? 

-----Original Message-----
>From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Nov 20, 2007 10:32 AM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
>
>My hope with every one else on the list is that Linux continues to expand.
>
>When I loaded OpenSUSE 10.3 it had something from HP that helped me with printing. and that is something that I struggled with.
>
>Overall things are better with OpenSUSE 10.3.
>
>David 
>
>
>
>
>      ____________________________________________________________________________________
>Be a better pen pal. 
>Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.  http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 10:54:30 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:54:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
In-Reply-To: <16761498.1195573181064.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20071120160105.EF4C31412E@impelind.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of R. Kannan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:40 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
> 
> Could you elaborate? What are "something from HP" and 
> "something that I struggled with"? 
> 

	Something from HP would probably be the HP Driver Configuration
applet that ships as part of OpenSuSe 10.3.

	Something struggled with is probably referring to getting a certain
printer to operate using CUPS and an open source driver?

	-Rob



From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Nov 20 10:48:38 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:48:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>

Carl T. Miller wrote:
> Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
>> David Lane wrote:
>>> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a
>>> Windows pc?
>> Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
>> applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
>> have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
>> Linux running in a VMware player session.
>>
>> It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
>> this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
>> is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
>> in on Vista.
> 
> Yes, I do this all the time with servers at work.  If I'm on a
> Linux workstation, I use ssh to create a tunnel and VNCviewer for
> the remote connection.
> 
> For Windows (which was the original question) you can do the same
> thing.  Use putty to set up an ssh tunnel, and then use VNCviewer
> for the remoter connection.
> 
> If you need more details about setting up the tunnel or making
> the connection, let me know (or do a Google search).
> 
> c

Right, VNC is great for forwarding a whole desktop. For forwarding a
single app (i.e. less band width required) Putty won't do it to windows,
no local X display. I floated the idea of a small footprint Linux in a
virtual machine to provide a local x display. What do you suggest?

Ray


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 11:09:25 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:09:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
Message-ID: <796057.67731.qm@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes that Printing and wireless note book cards are my biggest problems.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
To: R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com>; MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:54:30 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner




> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of R. Kannan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:40 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
> 
> Could you elaborate? What are "something from HP" and 
> "something that I struggled with"? 
> 

    Something from HP would probably be the HP Driver Configuration
applet that ships as part of OpenSuSe 10.3.

    Something struggled with is probably referring to getting a certain
printer to operate using CUPS and an open source driver?

    -Rob

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From wolfger at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 11:32:05 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:32:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711200832k6dda64f9wd95eba3309f2d640@mail.gmail.com>

Pet peeve:

On Nov 20, 2007 10:10 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux.

You are running Linux on something other than a PC (Personal
Computer)? What OS is your PC running?


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Tue Nov 20 11:34:49 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:34:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
	<474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Right, VNC is great for forwarding a whole desktop. For forwarding a
> single app (i.e. less band width required) Putty won't do it to windows,
> no local X display. I floated the idea of a small footprint Linux in a
> virtual machine to provide a local x display. What do you suggest?

I missed the part about the virtual machine.  You're right that
there is no free and easy answer that does everything, as far as
I know.

It's a lot easier to use putty and the Windows version of VNCviewer,
although it does mean you'll get the entire desktop.  If bandwidth
is a concern, I believe that VNC can be configured to use less data
for screen updates than what x can.  Also I think it is possible to
use compression in the ssh tunnel to improve really slow connections.

Is it worth the extra requirements to set up a virtual environment,
create a virtual machine, install an entire OS, and then run a single
app inside a window inside the virtual machine?  It depends on what
you're doing.  However, if I did want to run a single app in its own
window, I wouldn't want a virtual machine.  I would look into getting
a good x-server for Windows.  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why
I like the putty/vnc connection at the price of getting a full desktop.

Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that
only one application runs and the connection is dropped when the app-
lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such a desktop.

c




From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 11:50:54 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:50:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <909369.1854.qm@web37912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Just Intel and AMD based pc's.  

I'm running XP and OpenSUSE 10.3. I have to up grade that Last linux to  OpenSUSE 10.3.

I will flip an older Gateway to run IP Cop.

I run Apache, develop in C++ & PHP and use MySQL, all portable across Windows and Linux and others.  Now if in the next few years I have to look at saleability that is a very good place to be in.  



----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:32:05 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


Pet peeve:

On Nov 20, 2007 10:10 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux.

You are running Linux on something other than a PC (Personal
Computer)? What OS is your PC running?


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 12:09:33 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:09:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <494589.50458.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That is the value of Linux, extending the performance of low cost resources.  

I am very confident that the duo 6600 running suse, will meet my needs. I also develop in C++, that will yield performance.  There are a lot operations that run in an interpreted environment that kills and gains in performance.  

Poor performance cost so much in so many ways.

David 



----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:32:05 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


Pet peeve:

On Nov 20, 2007 10:10 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux.

You are running Linux on something other than a PC (Personal
Computer)? What OS is your PC running?


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
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From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Nov 20 12:12:11 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:12:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>	<474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
	<20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <4743156B.7090008@ameritech.net>

Carl T. Miller wrote:

> Is it worth the extra requirements to set up a virtual environment,
> create a virtual machine, install an entire OS, and then run a single
> app inside a window inside the virtual machine?

I take this as a rhetorical question. I suppose the entertainment value
of making it work doesn't count in most cases.

> It depends on what you're doing.

It would also depend on if you already have VMware or similar already
available. That's really most of the work. If you have that DSL may be
"an entire OS" but it is really light weight, and could be stripped down
even more. It wouldn't surprise me if there were VMware VMs built just
for this purpose.

> However, if I did want to run a single app in its own
> window, I wouldn't want a virtual machine.  I would look into getting
> a good x-server for Windows.

Right, but...

>  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why
> I like the putty/vnc connection at the price of getting a full desktop.

Which brings us full circle. VMware Player/server are free to use and so
is Damn Small Linux.

> Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that
> only one application runs and the connection is dropped when the app-
> lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such a desktop.

Right. Of course It only needs to be setup once, then the VMs could be
distributed freely.

Hmmm. Sounds like an interesting project....

> c



From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 12:36:43 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:36:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4743156B.7090008@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20071120174319.7312514142@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Raymond McLaughlin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:12 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
> 
> 
> >  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why I like the putty/vnc 
> > connection at the price of getting a full desktop.
> 
> Which brings us full circle. VMware Player/server are free to 
> use and so is Damn Small Linux.
> 
> > Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that 
> > only one application runs and the connection is dropped 
> when the app- 
> > lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such 
> a desktop.
> 
> Right. Of course It only needs to be setup once, then the VMs 
> could be distributed freely.
> 
> Hmmm. Sounds like an interesting project....
> 

	Just download VMWare Player and then look through their list of
freely available already setup and ready to go VMs that could do that... I
believe that there is already a Damn Small Linux VM image ready to go,
amongst other Linux Distros.

	Although, I must say that the guest OS in VMWare player actually
runs significantly faster/better while VMWare Player is running on top of
Linux, as opposed to Windows(at least Windows Vista).

	-Rob



From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Tue Nov 20 13:03:40 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:03:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <27148540.1195581820532.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

LOL. Looks like the sarcasm in your post wen unnoticed.

I too hate it when people call Windows (the OS) as PC (the hardware). Like the Apple MAC vs PC commercials.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 20, 2007 11:32 AM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
>
>Pet peeve:
>
>On Nov 20, 2007 10:10 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux.
>
>You are running Linux on something other than a PC (Personal
>Computer)? What OS is your PC running?
>
>
>-- 
>Wolfger
>http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
>AOL IM: wolf4coyot
>Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
>Ekiga: wolfger
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Tue Nov 20 14:00:01 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:00:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4743156B.7090008@ameritech.net>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>	<474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
	<20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
	<4743156B.7090008@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4555.216.144.215.245.1195585201.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Carl T. Miller wrote:
>> Is it worth the extra requirements to set up a virtual environment,
>> create a virtual machine, install an entire OS, and then run a single
>> app inside a window inside the virtual machine?
>
> I take this as a rhetorical question. I suppose the entertainment value
> of making it work doesn't count in most cases.

Yes, although I generally believe that simplicity is good, and
an app with a tunnel is simpler than an app with a tunnel in
an OS in a virtual machine.

And, yes, the entertainment value counts for bonus points!

>>  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why
>> I like the putty/vnc connection at the price of getting a full desktop.
>
> Which brings us full circle. VMware Player/server are free to use and so
> is Damn Small Linux.

Exactly!  We both agree there's a merry-go-round that's gone
haywire.  VNCserver with putty and VMware player, DSL and X
are both viable options to get off the merry-go-round without
spending much money.

>> Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that
>> only one application runs and the connection is dropped when the app-
>> lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such a desktop.
>
> Right. Of course It only needs to be setup once, then the VMs could be
> distributed freely.
>
> Hmmm. Sounds like an interesting project....

Definitely.  It would be worth doing if only for the entertainment
value.  And I know that VMware would add it to their website that
has the pre-built vmware guests.

c




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Nov 20 14:12:36 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:12:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Adam Tauno Williams

> And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
> that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
> for the pain/expense of Vista.

 Yes, that's what I said - Vista doesn't offer anything new that people
want, and it's a substantial cost to upgrade.

 However... XP will not *stay* 'good enough'. MS can't (politically) afford
to put much support effort into XP. XP will stagnate, while alternatives
move forward.

> While techy types get worked up about, often obscure, security issues
> most businesses, especially small business (all small businesses?) just
> do-not-care.

 ...until they get hit with a security problem. 

> <aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
> LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely 
> undocumented. 

 Well, enforcing a *Windows-ish* security policy, perhaps.

> GDM is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your 
> account in 14 days if you don't change your password.... nope.

 I'd thought GDM 2.x had been revamped to deal with things like that...

> You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.

 What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be accomplished with
more traditional u/g/o permissions?

> Firefox will work with NTLM or Kerberos authentication for single sign-on
> to the proxy and/or intranet.... nope.

 Seems like this ought to work:
http://open.itworld.com/5037/book_050425firefoxhacks/page_1.html

> I could go one.  Despite all the rah-rag about security the 
> support for good security practices on LINUX sucks.</aside>

 Integration with Windows probably isn't fully there, I'd say. That's
not the same as saying 'support for good security practices' isn't
there.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                           (313) 227-2317

 "When it comes to gas, [Americans] need it cheap, and the president
  had better get it for us, or else, and we don't care how. If it
  takes a hundred thousand dead Iraqi 'soldiers' to keep gas below
  two bucks a gallon - when the rest of the world pays five and up -
                   then that's what it takes."
     - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 15:48:09 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:48:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> > And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
> > that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
> > for the pain/expense of Vista.
>  Yes, that's what I said - Vista doesn't offer anything new that people
> want, and it's a substantial cost to upgrade.
>  However... XP will not *stay* 'good enough'. MS can't (politically) afford
> to put much support effort into XP. XP will stagnate, while alternatives
> move forward.

Of course, nothing stays good enough;  but I know lots of places and
organizations still using 2000.  These technologies remain viable for
much longer than we techies remain infatuated with them.

> > While techy types get worked up about, often obscure, security issues
> > most businesses, especially small business (all small businesses?) just
> > do-not-care.
>  ...until they get hit with a security problem. 

Of course.

> > <aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
> > LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely 
> > undocumented. 
>  Well, enforcing a *Windows-ish* security policy, perhaps.

No, there is nothing Window-ish about notifying users of password change
requirements, etc...

> > GDM is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your 
> > account in 14 days if you don't change your password.... nope.
>  I'd thought GDM 2.x had been revamped to deal with things like that...

Some yes,  it a-l-m-o-s-t works.  Unfortunately there really aren't any
standard/open ways for GDM to know,  unless you are still using an
obsolete technique like shadow passwords via NIS.

> > You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
>  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be accomplished with
> more traditional u/g/o permissions?

A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
UNIX are basically useless to users.

> > Firefox will work with NTLM or Kerberos authentication for single sign-on
> > to the proxy and/or intranet.... nope.
>  Seems like this ought to work:
> http://open.itworld.com/5037/book_050425firefoxhacks/page_1.html

These are listed as hacks for a reason.  Again they are a-l-m-o-s-t
there.

> > I could go one.  Despite all the rah-rag about security the 
> > support for good security practices on LINUX sucks.</aside>
>  Integration with Windows probably isn't fully there, 

None of the above has anything whatsoever to do with integrating with
Windows.

> I'd say. That's
> not the same as saying 'support for good security practices' isn't
> there.

Basic expectations can't be met (prompting for automatic password
change, etc...) and user's can't simply perform basic security
operations (granting r/w access to another user).  If that isn't the
basis of "support for good security practices" I don't know what is.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 18:59:56 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:59:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>

Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
>> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
>> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff. It
>> also has a unique look, simple but pleasing graphics. For that price, I think it's
>> well worth picking up. I got it for full price when it came out and I don't feel
>> cheated. As a bonus, it doesn't take up GB of space on disk; the environments are
>> fractal and the data files small.
>>
>>  The Linux install is here: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/support/linux.html
> 
> 
> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?

Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 19:01:20 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:01:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474223D0.9010104@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
>> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.
> 
> Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
> solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
> energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
> licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
> adding complexity".

In other words, bring Linux in through the back door ....
just like we did with web servers back in the 1990's. :-)




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 19:46:38 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:46:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <47422E6E.9010901@hotpop.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> Bottom line is what they care about, Techies are always poor
>> sales-people. Even if it is the best thing out there, what the
>> resources ever it is.  But New business owners are a different story
>> they have no infrastructure to migrate.  
>> And NO I do not want to waste my time on people who are not even open
>> to listening to sound options. 
>> I know first hand that you have to have support from the top in such
>> issues.  And at that level Dollars and Cents have the final say.  
> 
> No, they don't.  Availability of support, documentation, and talent, as
> well as durability of the vendor.

True.

> 
>> That is why Microsoft uses FUD.  Microsoft has the resources to fluid
>> the market with what ever that want.  
>> And at the end of the day meeting the mission in a cost effective
>> manner is the best business plan.
> 
> Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
> most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
> software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
> 

Long term, windows is very expensive.
The admin/machine ratio is rediculously low for Windows.
Even at 2x the pay, Linux and Unix admins are cheaper,
because Windows is very labor-intensive to administrate.
I can admin 30 Unix machines, running four different
varieties of Unix (HP-UX, IRIX, AIX and Solaris), each
with its own custom configuration, than to admin
10 Windows XP machines all configured the same

I know this from experience, because I have done both.

And when the Unix machines have a standard configuration,
it's very easy to get machine/admin ratios that are
up in the hundreds.

The best I've ever seen for Windows is about 15:1.

> And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
> that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
> for the pain/expense of Vista.  While techy types get worked up about,
> often obscure, security issues most businesses, especially small
> business (all small businesses?) just do-not-care.  They don't even
> force password changes or strong passwords [I've *never* been in a shop
> of less than 50 employees that even had a security policy].  A sane
> configuration of XP is actually pretty secure, certainly enough for the
> every-man to use.  And it is essentially free [despite all that blather
> too - the cost of a desktop machine, M$ tax or no, puts it in the
> disposable expense column.  People often pay more for their desk chair].
> 
> <aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
> LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely undocumented.  GDM
> is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your account in 14
> days if you don't change your password.... nope.  You can view/edit file
> ACLs from nautilus... nope.  Firefox will work with NTLM or Kerberos

I've never seen a need for ACL's in ANY environment outside
of those operating systems which are completely lacking in
any other form of file security.


> authentication for single sign-on to the proxy and/or intranet.... nope.
> I could go one.  Despite all the rah-rag about security the support for
> good security practices on LINUX sucks.</aside>

Every "convenience" is actually another security hole
waiting to be exploited.  Single-sign on is actually
one of the WORST ideas to ever come down the pike...

Authorized user signs onto his login... leaves his/her
desk.  Unauthorized user can now take advanatage of
single-sign to do all sorts of things that they
should not be allowed to do...and through either
maliciousness (backstab a coworker by doing things
under the coworker's ID) or ignorance (screwing
with things they don't fully understand) they can
cause real, damage-to-the-bottom-line sorts of
problems.



> 
>> Okay since I don't see any hands: 
>> What about a YouTube short like the MAC PC  but as a Linux  PC
>> commercial?
> 
> Novell already made several;
 >  they are quite good as such things go.
> You can download them from at least Novell's site.
> 

That's not putting it on TV where people will actually
watch it.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 23:06:41 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:06:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192019520.2150@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>	<b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192019520.2150@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47425D51.4030307@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2007-11-19, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
>> On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
>> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
>>> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.
>> Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
>> solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
>> energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
>> licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
>> adding complexity".
> 
> And don't forget the standard "booze and hookers" angle.
> Corporate execs love that "solution".

Free hooker holding a bottle of whiskey with every Linux server.

You could probably sell them for $5,000 with 300 MHz CPUs.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 23:12:50 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:12:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <47425EC2.9010005@hotpop.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>>> Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
>>> most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
>>> software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
>> Errrr, I take it you have never actually see a M$ Enterprise support 
>> agreement and the eight figure ransom big business pays for the real 
>> cost of these "cheep" desktops.
> 
> Are we talking about enterprises or small/medium businesses?  Seems to
> me the mile post in these kind of debates gets switched back and forth
> allot.  Enterprises just don't care,  it isn't that expensive relative
> to other things.  No small/medium business I've ever encountered has an
> M$ support agreement.
> 
>> If they don't pay, they risk the very 
>> real probability that malware will take down their business. 
> 
> Bogus.  I admin a network of ~250 Windows 2000 & XP workstations.  No
> support agreement.  The threat of malware is drasitically overstated by
> fear mongers and alarmists,  the issue is actually quite easily to deal
> with using well-known techniques.  Openness to Open Source solutions
> only makes it even easier.  In all the years I've been an admin there
> has been one lonely incident of malware disrupting (not shutting down)
> normal business and the issue was resolved within hours.
> <aside>Fortunately for us our competition was down for a couple of
> days. :)</aside>
> 
>> Then, there's the cheeper cost of AV and infection mitigation for the user 
>> induced events.
> 
> Well, the cost of our AV protection solution... $0.00.
> 
>> AND, if they have an envirornment where a vedor sells them a WIN OS 
>> embeded device (MF copier, manufacturing machinery, appliance, etc) they 
>> are at real mercy of the desktop devicing causing interruption of their 
>> core business when the cheep desktops cause faults 
> 
> Eh?  This doesn't even make sense.  If you have any kind of embedded
> device / appliance you are always 110% at the mercy of the vendor.
> Nothing changes that.  Fortunately my experience is that most embedded
> devices are far too stupid / limited / sealed to respond to malware in
> anyway (you're lucky if most "appliances" even manage to do what they
> were advertised to do).
> 
>> - maybe infections - 
>> of these "turn key" opperations.  Most of these embeded devices never 
>> get patched and the vendor usually tells the client they can't touch the
> 
> Sure, and what does this have to do with Windows vs. LINUX desktops?
> The embedded devices are just there - nothing anyone can do about the
> bloody things. (I have well over two dozen hosts running NT embedded,
> real crap).

I just had a scary thought... an MS-embeded network printer
being turned into a spam-bot.

I wonder how many exist already.




From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 16:23:53 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:23:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>

> 
> > > You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
> >  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be 
> accomplished 
> > with more traditional u/g/o permissions?
> 
> A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
> secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
> UNIX are basically useless to users.
> 

	Linux does support ACLs.

	Just Google: ACLs for Linux (no quotes required)

	...and you'll find plenty of hits regarding various methods for
setting up and using ACLs in Linux.

	As a test, I opened up a web browser connection to my server and
connected to Webmin. Webmin as a nifty Java based File Browser that supports
the underlying elements available on the Filesystem.

	I created a testfile and then added extra users as having rights on
that file, such as Read Only.

	It appears, without doing anything extra, that my recent
installation of OpenSuSe 10.3 supports extended ACLs out of the gate.

	-Rob


P.S. You know this is a Linux User Group list, right? It really seems like
you are talking about 5+ year old problems as being current issues and
reasons not to use Linux. I'd hazard to suggest that it is almost FUDish.



From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 20 16:37:20 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:37:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>	<b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192019520.2150@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47425D51.4030307@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <005001c82bbd$87d81dc0$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aaron Kulkis" <akulkis3 at hotpop.com>
To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


> Michael Corral wrote:
>> 2007-11-19, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
>>> On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
>>> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend 
>>>> a
>>>> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.
>>> Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
>>> solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
>>> energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
>>> licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
>>> adding complexity".
>>
>> And don't forget the standard "booze and hookers" angle.
>> Corporate execs love that "solution".
>
> Free hooker holding a bottle of whiskey with every Linux server.
>
> You could probably sell them for $5,000 with 300 MHz CPUs.
.
Hmmmm.... Depends on the whiskey.   ;-)

-Mike



From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 16:48:39 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <1195595319.4744.13.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> > > > You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
> > >  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be 
> > accomplished 
> > > with more traditional u/g/o permissions?
> > A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
> > secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
> > UNIX are basically useless to users.
> 	Linux does support ACLs.

No one said it didn't.

> 	...and you'll find plenty of hits regarding various methods for
> setting up and using ACLs in Linux.
> 	As a test, I opened up a web browser connection to my server and
> connected to Webmin. Webmin as a nifty Java based File Browser that supports
> the underlying elements available on the Filesystem.
> 	I created a testfile and then added extra users as having rights on
> that file, such as Read Only.
> 	It appears, without doing anything extra, that my recent
> installation of OpenSuSe 10.3 supports extended ACLs out of the gate.

>From the original message: "you can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus...
nope".  The context here is concerning LINUX as a viable desktop
alternative to Vista, supporting the end-user in reasonable security
practices.  Use of Webmin certainly isn't end-user.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From muteid10t at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 16:49:26 2007
From: muteid10t at gmail.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:49:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
	<474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
	<20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <52995d720711201349j57967bfeq22c3df6a16b194a2@mail.gmail.com>

if you are remoting from linux to windows why not just use RDP via
rdesktop on linux, if you only need one app look for seamlessrdp. If
you are going from windows to linux and you only need one or two apps
use xming.

All this talk about using vnc over ssh on a local network is over
kill. I understand it if you are accessing a remote system over the
internet but then you should just look for one of the versions of VNC
that has encryption built in instead of cramming VNC over SSH and
making the VNC connection that much more bogged down and choppy.

-Ron

On 11/20/07, Carl T. Miller <millerc at cantonpl.org> wrote:
> Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> > Right, VNC is great for forwarding a whole desktop. For forwarding a
> > single app (i.e. less band width required) Putty won't do it to windows,
> > no local X display. I floated the idea of a small footprint Linux in a
> > virtual machine to provide a local x display. What do you suggest?
>
> I missed the part about the virtual machine.  You're right that
> there is no free and easy answer that does everything, as far as
> I know.
>
> It's a lot easier to use putty and the Windows version of VNCviewer,
> although it does mean you'll get the entire desktop.  If bandwidth
> is a concern, I believe that VNC can be configured to use less data
> for screen updates than what x can.  Also I think it is possible to
> use compression in the ssh tunnel to improve really slow connections.
>
> Is it worth the extra requirements to set up a virtual environment,
> create a virtual machine, install an entire OS, and then run a single
> app inside a window inside the virtual machine?  It depends on what
> you're doing.  However, if I did want to run a single app in its own
> window, I wouldn't want a virtual machine.  I would look into getting
> a good x-server for Windows.  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why
> I like the putty/vnc connection at the price of getting a full desktop.
>
> Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that
> only one application runs and the connection is dropped when the app-
> lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such a desktop.
>
> c
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 16:53:16 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:53:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195595319.4744.13.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <20071120215952.EE70C14127@impelind.com>

> 
> > > > > You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
> > > >  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be
> > > accomplished
> > > > with more traditional u/g/o permissions?
> > > A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their 
> file, and the
> > > secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o 
> permissions from
> > > UNIX are basically useless to users.
> > 	Linux does support ACLs.
> 
> No one said it didn't.
> 
> > 	...and you'll find plenty of hits regarding various methods for 
> > setting up and using ACLs in Linux.
> > 	As a test, I opened up a web browser connection to my 
> server and 
> > connected to Webmin. Webmin as a nifty Java based File Browser that 
> > supports the underlying elements available on the Filesystem.
> > 	I created a testfile and then added extra users as 
> having rights on 
> > that file, such as Read Only.
> > 	It appears, without doing anything extra, that my 
> recent installation 
> > of OpenSuSe 10.3 supports extended ACLs out of the gate.
> 
> >From the original message: "you can view/edit file ACLs from 
> nautilus...
> nope".  The context here is concerning LINUX as a viable 
> desktop alternative to Vista, supporting the end-user in 
> reasonable security practices.  Use of Webmin certainly isn't 
> end-user.
> 

	Konqueror supports that as well and it certainly is an End-User app.

	Under the properties of a file, there's a tab marked Permissions, on
that tab is a button marked "Advanced Permissions", which allows to use
ACLs. Konqueror is designed with the Power User in mind, for the most part
only power users or admins would think/consider the use of such ACLs.

	Nautilus, in fact all of GNOME, (unless something has changed
recently) has always been aimed at the "Average User", which are those
people who are just above thinking that a mouse is similar to a foot pedal
for a sewing machine all the way up to those who THINK they are "power
users" but really are nowhere near that ability/understanding.

	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I could be wrong,
it may actually support advanced permissions now as well. I'll load it up on
my test machine and see if that's the case and report later.

	I only used Webmin earlier because the test machine is in another
area that I hadn't felt like walking to.

	-Rob



From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 17:05:40 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:05:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120215952.EE70C14127@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <20071120221216.8BC3B1412E@impelind.com>


> > 
> 
> 	Konqueror supports that as well and it certainly is an 
> End-User app.
> 
> 	Under the properties of a file, there's a tab marked 
> Permissions, on that tab is a button marked "Advanced 
> Permissions", which allows to use ACLs. Konqueror is designed 
> with the Power User in mind, for the most part only power 
> users or admins would think/consider the use of such ACLs.
> 
> 	Nautilus, in fact all of GNOME, (unless something has changed
> recently) has always been aimed at the "Average User", which 
> are those people who are just above thinking that a mouse is 
> similar to a foot pedal for a sewing machine all the way up 
> to those who THINK they are "power users" but really are 
> nowhere near that ability/understanding.
> 
> 	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I 
> could be wrong, it may actually support advanced permissions 
> now as well. I'll load it up on my test machine and see if 
> that's the case and report later.
> 
> 	I only used Webmin earlier because the test machine is 
> in another area that I hadn't felt like walking to.
> 
> 	-Rob
> 

	I forgot to include that I honestly wouldn't be surprised if adding
Advanced Permission support simply isn't part of the GNOME development
team's agenda.

	-Rob



From wolfger at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 17:46:25 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:46:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 6:59 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> > On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> >
> > The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
> > the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
> > extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?
>
> Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
> the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
> might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.

I am constantly amazed at how many people deem human intervention to
be unnatural. We are, after all, as nature created us... impulses to
intervene and all.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From Stan at mcomputersolutions.com  Tue Nov 20 17:48:02 2007
From: Stan at mcomputersolutions.com (Stan Green)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:48:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Lite: 5 Tiny Distros That Pack A Big Bang
Message-ID: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>

Here is an article from Information Week that I thought some here might find 
interesting. 

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=203100989&cid=nl_IWK_daily

Regards,
Stan Green


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Tue Nov 20 18:11:41 2007
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:11:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <474369AD.6090707@arb.net>



Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

>>>Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
>>>most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
>>>software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
>>>      
>>>
>>Errrr, I take it you have never actually see a M$ Enterprise support 
>>agreement and the eight figure ransom big business pays for the real 
>>cost of these "cheep" desktops.
>>    
>>
>
>Are we talking about enterprises or small/medium businesses?  Seems to
>me the mile post in these kind of debates gets switched back and forth
>allot.  Enterprises just don't care,  it isn't that expensive relative
>to other things.  No small/medium business I've ever encountered has an
>M$ support agreement.
>  
>
I thought I clearly said BIG Business ;-)  I have been in several BIG 
Businesses, and they care enough to shell out BIG money for it. They 
also get "services" from M$ to resolve problems before the rest of the 
M$ customers who don't care....

>  
>
>>If they don't pay, they risk the very 
>>real probability that malware will take down their business. 
>>    
>>
>
>Bogus.  I admin a network of ~250 Windows 2000 & XP workstations.  No
>support agreement.  The threat of malware is drasitically overstated by
>fear mongers and alarmists,  the issue is actually quite easily to deal
>with using well-known techniques.  Openness to Open Source solutions
>only makes it even easier.  In all the years I've been an admin there
>has been one lonely incident of malware disrupting (not shutting down)
>normal business and the issue was resolved within hours.
><aside>Fortunately for us our competition was down for a couple of
>days. :)</aside>
>  
>

Sorry Adam, I was talking about Enterprise - BIG Business. 250 nodes is 
not even a single suite on a single floor for big business. My personal 
experience. Not conjecture. I personally have seen Tens of MILLIONS of 
real dollars in lost business on multiple occurrences in BIG business 
due to M$ systems being wacked by malware in a production environment. 
Again, personal experience, not grape vine, and not small business.

The topic of this tread is "A big opportunity for Linux?" and that is 
where I am attempting to show I think Big business is ripe for the 
opportunity.

>  
>
>>Then, there's the cheeper cost of AV and infection mitigation for the user 
>>induced events.
>>    
>>
>
>Well, the cost of our AV protection solution... $0.00.
>  
>
Well, for a small privately held company, it sounds like you have faired 
well.

>  
>
>>AND, if they have an envirornment where a vedor sells them a WIN OS 
>>embeded device (MF copier, manufacturing machinery, appliance, etc) they 
>>are at real mercy of the desktop devicing causing interruption of their 
>>core business when the cheep desktops cause faults 
>>    
>>
>
>Eh?  This doesn't even make sense.  If you have any kind of embedded
>device / appliance you are always 110% at the mercy of the vendor.
>Nothing changes that.  Fortunately my experience is that most embedded
>devices are far too stupid / limited / sealed to respond to malware in
>anyway (you're lucky if most "appliances" even manage to do what they
>were advertised to do).
>
>  
>
Again, I was talking about personal experience. I have seen this. Just 
dig under the covers of most of the Multi-function copiers. Again, this 
is for BIG business, so we are talking about tens of thousands of 
dollars for a single machine - they all too often have Windoze 2000 
Server as the embedded system. It is not "limited" or "too stupid" to 
become infected with a host of malware.

>>- maybe infections - 
>>of these "turn key" opperations.  Most of these embeded devices never 
>>get patched and the vendor usually tells the client they can't touch the
>>    
>>
>
>Sure, and what does this have to do with Windows vs. LINUX desktops?
>The embedded devices are just there - nothing anyone can do about the
>bloody things. (I have well over two dozen hosts running NT embedded,
>real crap).
>
>  
>
"A big opportunity for Linux?" - Topic - yes?   So, all these systems I 
spoke of are WIndows Desktop systems that cost a ton of money after the 
fact, and Linux desktops have a clear benefit against malware - less 
cost and more reliability. It is clear to me. I' m sorry if I have not 
articulated this well.

>>OS. I have seen all of this. It is costing business multi-billions to 
>>mitigate the risks and clean up after this so call "cheep OS". 
>>    
>>
>
>And I've seen those numbers;  same thing with SPAM... it is costing some
>unholy amount of money.  I don't buy it.  If this is true then those
>networks are being administered poorly or someone is quite happy to just
>fork over buckets of money for someone else to deal with the problem (a
>legitimate business solution in some cases [although, I suspect, usually
>not]).
>
>  
>
Well, I personally have seen this is BIG business, first hand, not a 
trade rag.  Choose to believe what you want. This is about Opportunity 
for Linux, not opinions - mine nor yours.

>>I thought eveyone knows M$ does not make the bulk of their $$$ from 
>>selling the actual software anymore....
>>    
>>
>
>So?  This is true of IBM, HP, Sun, etc... hardware & software is just a
>platform.  The solution is valuable part, so of course that is where the
>profit is.
>
>  
>
Again, back to the topic of discussion. Opportunity for Linux based on 
real total cost of ownership....     

Are you a tried and True MSCE ?  :-D    I usually don't get slammed so 
hard by Linux people what I talk about Linux, particularly when the lack 
of Windoze security is a factor.

-dave   (CISSP)
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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 20 18:53:45 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:53:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47437389.30806@hotpop.com>

Wolfger wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2007 6:59 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> Joseph Vartanian wrote:
>>> On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
>>> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
>>> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?
>> Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
>> the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
>> might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.
> 
> I am constantly amazed at how many people deem human intervention to
> be unnatural. We are, after all, as nature created us... impulses to
> intervene and all.
> 

Precisely.




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 19:16:34 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:16:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Lite: 5 Tiny Distros That Pack A Big Bang
In-Reply-To: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711201616i6d326ac6w1b021ac5933f70c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 20, 2007 5:48 PM, Stan Green <Stan at mcomputersolutions.com> wrote:
> Here is an article from Information Week that I thought some here might find
> interesting.
>
> http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=203100989&cid=nl_IWK_daily

I would add DeLi Linux (www.delilinux.de/index.html) for really old
systems.  The developer uses a 486 laptop.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 20 18:51:26 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:51:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <474372FE.2000709@hotpop.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>>>> You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
>>>  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be 
>> accomplished 
>>> with more traditional u/g/o permissions?
>> A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
>> secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
>> UNIX are basically useless to users.
>>
> 
> 	Linux does support ACLs.
> 
> 	Just Google: ACLs for Linux (no quotes required)
> 
> 	...and you'll find plenty of hits regarding various methods for
> setting up and using ACLs in Linux.

> 
> 	As a test, I opened up a web browser connection to my server and
> connected to Webmin. Webmin as a nifty Java based File Browser that supports
> the underlying elements available on the Filesystem.
> 
> 	I created a testfile and then added extra users as having rights on
> that file, such as Read Only.
> 
> 	It appears, without doing anything extra, that my recent
> installation of OpenSuSe 10.3 supports extended ACLs out of the gate.
> 


I've yet to come across a situation where they were
actually needed, even in the workplace.


> 	-Rob
> 
> 
> P.S. You know this is a Linux User Group list, right? It really seems like
> you are talking about 5+ year old problems as being current issues and
> reasons not to use Linux. I'd hazard to suggest that it is almost FUDish.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From jvartanian at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 00:34:28 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:34:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 20, 2007 6:53 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Wolfger wrote:
> > On Nov 19, 2007 6:59 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> >> Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> >>> On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
> >>> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
> >>> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?
> >> Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
> >> the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
> >> might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.
> >
> > I am constantly amazed at how many people deem human intervention to
> > be unnatural. We are, after all, as nature created us... impulses to
> > intervene and all.
> >
>
> Precisely.
>

True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
natural selection and extinction.  We have a much better
understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
world around us and ultimately ourselves.  This ability to understand
things that other animals can't understand is the one and only unique
ability that nature gave to us humans.  Humans think and animals act
on impulse.  If we don't use this unique ability, and act only on pure
impulse, then that makes us nothing but animals again.

Now I have no idea why I just wrote all that.  I think it was just an impulse.

-Joseph


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 20 16:08:28 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:08:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>>> And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
>>> that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
>>> for the pain/expense of Vista.
>>  Yes, that's what I said - Vista doesn't offer anything new that people
>> want, and it's a substantial cost to upgrade.
>>  However... XP will not *stay* 'good enough'. MS can't (politically) afford
>> to put much support effort into XP. XP will stagnate, while alternatives
>> move forward.
> 
> Of course, nothing stays good enough;  but I know lots of places and
> organizations still using 2000.  These technologies remain viable for
> much longer than we techies remain infatuated with them.
> 
>>> While techy types get worked up about, often obscure, security issues
>>> most businesses, especially small business (all small businesses?) just
>>> do-not-care.
>>  ...until they get hit with a security problem. 
> 
> Of course.
> 
>>> <aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
>>> LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely 
>>> undocumented. 
>>  Well, enforcing a *Windows-ish* security policy, perhaps.
> 
> No, there is nothing Window-ish about notifying users of password change
> requirements, etc...
> 
>>> GDM is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your 
>>> account in 14 days if you don't change your password.... nope.
>>  I'd thought GDM 2.x had been revamped to deal with things like that...
> 
> Some yes,  it a-l-m-o-s-t works.  Unfortunately there really aren't any
> standard/open ways for GDM to know,  unless you are still using an
> obsolete technique like shadow passwords via NIS.
> 
>>> You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
>>  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be accomplished with
>> more traditional u/g/o permissions?
> 
> A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
> secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
> UNIX are basically useless to users.

In actual practice in the workplace, I've never seen
u/g/o rwx to be insufficient for that sort of task.

I suppose the CIA would be an exception...but that's a VERY
special exception.

Even in the combat environment of Baghdad, ACLs are an
extremely heavy-handed way of solving the problem (and
in many ways, even clumsier than u/g/o rwx).




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Nov 21 01:04:40 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:04:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4743CA78.9050208@hotpop.com>

Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2007 6:53 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> Wolfger wrote:
>>> On Nov 19, 2007 6:59 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>>>> Joseph Vartanian wrote:
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
>>>>> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
>>>>> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?
>>>> Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
>>>> the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
>>>> might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.
>>> I am constantly amazed at how many people deem human intervention to
>>> be unnatural. We are, after all, as nature created us... impulses to
>>> intervene and all.
>>>
>> Precisely.
>>
> 
> True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
> I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
> kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
> distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
> only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
> natural selection and extinction.  We have a much better
> understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
> world around us and ultimately ourselves.  This ability to understand
> things that other animals can't understand is the one and only unique
> ability that nature gave to us humans.  Humans think and animals act
> on impulse.  If we don't use this unique ability, and act only on pure
> impulse, then that makes us nothing but animals again.

Elephants and some of the higher apes also demonstrate
self-awareness (such as minipulating their own body parts
for a better look after being presented with a mirror and
being given enough time with the mirror to be able to
figure out that the creature seen in the mirror is actually
themselves)... I believe they have also demonstrated this
with some dolphins and killer-whales (orcas -- not to be
confused with orcs ;-) )

> 
> Now I have no idea why I just wrote all that.  I think it was just an impulse.
> 

Mmmmmmmmm... could BEEEEEEEE ;-)

</bugsbunny>

> -Joseph





From wolfger at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 07:06:16 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:06:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711210406s56893540o76a9e6228f4056b3@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 12:34 AM, Joseph Vartanian <jvartanian at gmail.com> wrote:

> True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
> I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
> kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
> distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
> only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
> natural selection and extinction.

That sounds like ego talking. Dolphins understand what we say a lot
better than we understand what they say. They lack opposable thumbs,
sure, but does that mean they're necessarily less intelligent than us?
We measure their intelligence by our standards and find them lacking,
but I'm sure they measure us by their standards and find us lacking.
Did you know dolphins actually have been observed testing humans?

> We have a much better
> understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
> world around us and ultimately ourselves.

If that was true, we wouldn't pollute the land we live in, or hunt
animals to extinction. Both of which we've done quite a lot of in the
past few centuries (to say the least).

> Humans think and animals act
> on impulse.  If we don't use this unique ability, and act only on pure
> impulse, then that makes us nothing but animals again.

That's pure arrogance. Animals do think, and humans do act on impulse.
There's less difference between us and the rest of the animal kingdom
than you're trying to portray.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 21 08:10:13 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:10:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120221216.8BC3B1412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <20071121131651.4408314140@impelind.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Robert Adkins
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:06 PM
> To: 'MDLUG's Main discussion list'; adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
> 
> 
> > > 
> > 
> > 	Konqueror supports that as well and it certainly is an 
> End-User app.
> > 
> > 	Under the properties of a file, there's a tab marked 
> Permissions, on 
> > that tab is a button marked "Advanced Permissions", which allows to 
> > use ACLs. Konqueror is designed with the Power User in 
> mind, for the 
> > most part only power users or admins would think/consider 
> the use of 
> > such ACLs.
> > 
> > 	Nautilus, in fact all of GNOME, (unless something has changed
> > recently) has always been aimed at the "Average User", 
> which are those 
> > people who are just above thinking that a mouse is similar 
> to a foot 
> > pedal for a sewing machine all the way up to those who 
> THINK they are 
> > "power users" but really are nowhere near that 
> ability/understanding.
> > 
> > 	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I 
> could be wrong, 
> > it may actually support advanced permissions now as well. 
> I'll load it 
> > up on my test machine and see if that's the case and report later.
> > 
> > 	I only used Webmin earlier because the test machine is 
> in another 
> > area that I hadn't felt like walking to.
> > 
> > 	-Rob
> > 
> 
> 	I forgot to include that I honestly wouldn't be 
> surprised if adding Advanced Permission support simply isn't 
> part of the GNOME development team's agenda.
> 
> 	-Rob
> 

	I checked on one of my home systems last night. The most recent
release of GNOME certainly does lack the ability to utilize ACLs. 

	I hardly see that as an issue, considering the fact that GNOME has
always been geared toward the novice who is likely to have virtually no
knowledge of even simple filesystem permissions, let alone the additional
complexities that ACLs can add to the mix.

	On GNOME's webpage, here's the first sentence describing the
project: "GNOME offers an easy to understand desktop for your GNU/Linux or
UNIX computer."

	ACLs (Heck even basic permissions) are hardly within the realm of
"easy to understand". (Unless, of course, you are an advanced user/admin.) I
run a Domain Controller using Samba for the office and even though I have
explained permissions time and time again, as well as set individualized
permissions on particular files specifically to allow most users ONLY read
access and a few users RW access to a single file in an otherwise "full
access" directory, I regularly field questions about who has access to what,
why and sometimes how that works. (From the same people, over and over.)

	If you are a Power User or Admin and you need direct access to ACLs,
use a Desktop geared for that type of work, like KDE or use a File Manager
that supports ACLs while you are running the GNOME desktop.

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 10:13:45 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:13:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person file manager"
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

http://ingles.homeunix.net/software/fpfm/

 It's not even an alpha yet - I'm not ready to put out source code - but I've
got a few preliminary screenshots for perusal. You can get a rough idea of what
it'll look like.

 A couple things that are working, but I didn't grab screenshots of yet,
are (a) translucency for symlinks and (b) image files wallpapered with a
thumbnail of the image they contain.

 I estimate about another month before I can make an alpha release. I don't
have a lot of time to work on it... :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

         Linux: For those that want to know why it works.
      MacOS: For those that don't want to know why it works.
  Windows: For those that don't want to know why it doesn't work.
                           - Anonymous
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 10:15:05 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:15:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330711210406s56893540o76a9e6228f4056b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330711210406s56893540o76a9e6228f4056b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430711210715i4aa2b205q6871c4483ead365f@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 7:06 AM, Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2007 12:34 AM, Joseph Vartanian <jvartanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
> > I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
> > kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
> > distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
> > only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
> > natural selection and extinction.
>
> That sounds like ego talking. Dolphins understand what we say a lot
> better than we understand what they say. They lack opposable thumbs,
> sure, but does that mean they're necessarily less intelligent than us?
> We measure their intelligence by our standards and find them lacking,
> but I'm sure they measure us by their standards and find us lacking.
> Did you know dolphins actually have been observed testing humans?
>
> > We have a much better
> > understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
> > world around us and ultimately ourselves.
>
> If that was true, we wouldn't pollute the land we live in, or hunt
> animals to extinction. Both of which we've done quite a lot of in the
> past few centuries (to say the least).
>

My point exactly.  We're not using our ability to think, and the
result is that we pollute the land we live in and hunt animals to
extinction.  I'll admit that I have a strange way of making my points.

-Joseph


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 10:25:49 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:25:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120215952.EE70C14127@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I could be wrong,
> it may actually support advanced permissions now as well. 

 Not quite integrated into Nautilus (yet), but available for Gnome:

 http://rofi.roger-ferrer.org/eiciel/

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                     (313) 227-2317

 "I regularly see an entire morning's work... get blipped away
  forever to the Planet of Lost Data. Needless to say, I use
              Microsoft Windows." - Dave Barry
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 21 10:34:40 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:34:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071121154117.787531412E@impelind.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Ingles, Raymond
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:26 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > 	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I 
> could be wrong, 
> > it may actually support advanced permissions now as well.
> 
>  Not quite integrated into Nautilus (yet), but available for Gnome:
> 
>  http://rofi.roger-ferrer.org/eiciel/
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                                     (313) 227-2317
> 


I suppose a little extra Googling and a little extra reading never hurts.

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 10:56:03 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:56:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

We were recently given a laptop with a dead battery, hard drive, and CD-ROM drive.
I managed to scavenge a 10GB disk, but installing without a CD drive looked to
be mildly irritating. Boot floppies again, oy.

 However, while the BIOS won't boot from CD, it *will* boot from the network. So, a
bit of Googling, and:

 http://wiki.koeln.ccc.de/index.php/Ubuntu_PXE_Install

 A bit of tweaking (I use xinetd instead of inetd and had to tweak the config
for tftp) and the thing booted right up off our wired network into the Ubuntu
installer. It took a while to install the packages over the network (over an
hour, actually) but it's operating quite well, and my little 802.11b wifi card
is connecting up. We have a semi-mobile workstation, now. I'll doubtless spend
some xmas money on a battery for it to make it fully mobile.

 The only sticking point is the onboard "Geforce2 Go" graphics. The screen
locks up if I used the closed-source Nvidia drivers, though the open-source
"nv" one works fine. I'll have to see if I can get the binary ones working;
I'm really curious to see if this machine can handle Compiz. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                           (313) 227-2317

 "DRM 'manages access' in the same way that jail 'manages freedom.'"
                         - Mr. Chaotica
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 11:34:57 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:34:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person file
	manager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <5aa434200711210834nbd856atb679c0c874a6342f@mail.gmail.com>

That looks entirely useless, and really damn cool. Put the source out there
sometime so I can play with it :)



On Nov 21, 2007 10:13 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
wrote:

> http://ingles.homeunix.net/software/fpfm/
>
>  It's not even an alpha yet - I'm not ready to put out source code - but
> I've
> got a few preliminary screenshots for perusal. You can get a rough idea of
> what
> it'll look like.
>
>  A couple things that are working, but I didn't grab screenshots of yet,
> are (a) translucency for symlinks and (b) image files wallpapered with a
> thumbnail of the image they contain.
>
>  I estimate about another month before I can make an alpha release. I
> don't
> have a lot of time to work on it... :->
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317
>
>         Linux: For those that want to know why it works.
>      MacOS: For those that don't want to know why it works.
>  Windows: For those that don't want to know why it doesn't work.
>                           - Anonymous
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose
> it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately
> and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
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From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 21 12:05:42 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:05:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47446566.6080600@comcast.net>

Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
> I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
> kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
> distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
> only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
> natural selection and extinction.  We have a much better
> understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
> world around us and ultimately ourselves.  This ability to understand
> things that other animals can't understand is the one and only unique
> ability that nature gave to us humans.  Humans think and animals act
> on impulse.  If we don't use this unique ability, and act only on pure
> impulse, then that makes us nothing but animals again.
>
> Now I have no idea why I just wrote all that.  I think it was just an impulse.
>   

Thinking ourselves apart from nature causes us to make serious errors. 
While we are to the point unique in our ability alter our circumstances
and environment, we are not "apart" from nature, and it helps to
remember that.  "Nature" affects us as much if not more than we affect
nature.

In many years for observing animals, the human variety included, I am
not so sure that abstract thought is the realm of humans alone. 
Likewise the supposedly human traits of kindness, love, and charity.  I
don't believe that sentients is a black and white issue. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 21 12:13:54 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:13:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person file
	manager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <47446752.4070008@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  A couple things that are working, but I didn't grab screenshots of yet,
> are (a) translucency for symlinks and (b) image files wallpapered with a
> thumbnail of the image they contain.
>
>  I estimate about another month before I can make an alpha release. I don't
> have a lot of time to work on it... :->
>
>   

So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?

It looks cool. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 12:23:04 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:23:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <47446752.4070008@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Garry Stahl
> So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?

 That was a real program:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Graphics#Entertainment_industry

 I do plan on stealing one idea from it: an alternate coloring scheme
will have recently-touched files be 'white-hot' and then they'll
gradually 'cool' to black.

> It looks cool. 

 Thanks. One thing I didn't anticipate is how wide the rooms get when
you've got a lot of subdirectories. My home directory is unmanageably
broad. I may have to re-think how to lay out the doors...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

  "Sure, it's OK for Ashcroft to interrogate everyone who's ever
  glanced toward Mecca - *his* profiling was A-okay. In fact, if
  you whined about it and brought up civil rights you were just
 'aiding the terrorists'. But at the airports, where we face the
 most obvious and imminent danger, we have become dangerously and
    inexplicably committed to placing pretense over results."
   - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From painbank at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 13:32:39 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:32:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <47446752.4070008@comcast.net>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711211032o47971bamc0a301cde99e04d7@mail.gmail.com>

ooohhhh I haven't seen anything like this as of yet....

so many concepts flow just from the screenshots...

preview abilities...

Doors, they can be, they can also be other things... anything really,
so long as you know when you click on something, you go somewhere....

I bet this would make finding forgotten file locations oh so much more fun!

hell I would enjoy looking at the code...

Very cool, I look forward to using this in the near future!

Rich

On Nov 21, 2007 12:23 PM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > From: Garry Stahl
> > So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?
>
>  That was a real program:
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Graphics#Entertainment_industry
>
>  I do plan on stealing one idea from it: an alternate coloring scheme
> will have recently-touched files be 'white-hot' and then they'll
> gradually 'cool' to black.
>
> > It looks cool.
>
>  Thanks. One thing I didn't anticipate is how wide the rooms get when
> you've got a lot of subdirectories. My home directory is unmanageably
> broad. I may have to re-think how to lay out the doors...
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Sure, it's OK for Ashcroft to interrogate everyone who's ever
>  glanced toward Mecca - *his* profiling was A-okay. In fact, if
>  you whined about it and brought up civil rights you were just
>  'aiding the terrorists'. But at the airports, where we face the
>  most obvious and imminent danger, we have become dangerously and
>    inexplicably committed to placing pretense over results."
>   - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
>
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img
src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0"
alt="The Pain Bank - SCA and WMA"/></a>


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 21 13:38:40 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:38:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <cafacd830711211032o47971bamc0a301cde99e04d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071121184518.0CFB914127@impelind.com>


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Rich Elswick
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 1:33 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first 
> person filemanager"
> 
> ooohhhh I haven't seen anything like this as of yet....
> 
> so many concepts flow just from the screenshots...
> 
> preview abilities...
> 
> Doors, they can be, they can also be other things... anything 
> really, so long as you know when you click on something, you 
> go somewhere....
> 
> I bet this would make finding forgotten file locations oh so 
> much more fun!
> 
> hell I would enjoy looking at the code...
> 
> Very cool, I look forward to using this in the near future!
> 
> Rich
> 
> On Nov 21, 2007 12:23 PM, Ingles, Raymond 
> <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > > From: Garry Stahl
> > > So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?
> >
> >  That was a real program:
> >  
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Graphics#Entertainment_industry
> >
> >  I do plan on stealing one idea from it: an alternate 
> coloring scheme 
> > will have recently-touched files be 'white-hot' and then they'll 
> > gradually 'cool' to black.
> >
> > > It looks cool.
> >
> >  Thanks. One thing I didn't anticipate is how wide the 
> rooms get when 
> > you've got a lot of subdirectories. My home directory is 
> unmanageably 
> > broad. I may have to re-think how to lay out the doors...
> >
> >  Sincerely,
> >
> >  Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317
> >
> >  "Sure, it's OK for Ashcroft to interrogate everyone who's ever  
> > glanced toward Mecca - *his* profiling was A-okay. In fact, if  you 
> > whined about it and brought up civil rights you were just  
> 'aiding the 
> > terrorists'. But at the airports, where we face the  most 
> obvious and 
> > imminent danger, we have become dangerously and
> >    inexplicably committed to placing pretense over results."
> >   - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
> > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named 
> addressee only. It contains information that may be 
> confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an 
> authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose 
> it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify 
> us immediately and then destroy it.
> > _______________________________________________
> >

	Is it wrong to ask for features?

	Like instead of just files represented as boxes, there could be
files represented with 3D Avatars of the user who owns the file wearing some
sort of uniform colored to match the group...

	Files one simply lacks access to could have some form of guardian
avatar basically saying "No! Stand back!"

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 14:05:44 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:05:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <20071121184518.0CFB914127@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Like instead of just files represented as boxes, there could be
> files represented with 3D Avatars of the user who owns the 
> file wearing some sort of uniform colored to match the group...

 Um, (a) this is my first 3D graphics program, and (b) I'm trying to
make this usable on older hardware - right now I'm getting 30fps, even
in a directory with hundreds of files, on a ~700MHz box with i810 graphics.
This looks a lot like a first-person shooter precisely *because* those can
run efficiently on commonly-available hardware.

 My goal is to try to stick with ideas that fit roughly with human intuitions.
We have hardware in our head for looking at objects and instantly judging their
size, shape, and composition; we have hardware for navigating around 3D worlds
with landmarks and such; I'm hoping to take advantage of that insofar as
possible.

 If you took a Mac user from 1984 and put them in front of a modern Gnome or
KDE interface, they'd be able to manage pretty well - there wouldn't be a
whole lot that was really new to them. But now we've got 3D hardware in
every computer sold, and we're not really taking advantage of it. I'm hoping
to find a new metaphor, like the 'desktop' was the metaphor of the new, 2D
graphical world in the 1980s. I won't get it all right; I may not get any of
it right. But I figure it's worth messing with.

 As an example of how *not* to do it, see tdfsb:

 http://www.determinate.net/webdata/seg/tdfsb.html

 The file size range is too broad, you can't find small files easily, you
wind up walking between 'buildings' of large files. Just looking at a file,
you can't tell much about it except size. A few file types have special
treatment but in a fun rather than useful way. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not
knocking his efforts - he's got something actually out there, and well before
me - but I think that's the wrong underlying metaphor.)

 All that being said, the source will be out there soon enough, and if you
want to add such things, feel free. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317
                       Free Stereogram!
    Try to make the two "O"s in the next row look like three:
                              O    O
 n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n
 f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f
 e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e
 a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a
 a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a
 r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r
 r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From painbank at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 14:08:01 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:08:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <20071121184518.0CFB914127@impelind.com>
References: <cafacd830711211032o47971bamc0a301cde99e04d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121184518.0CFB914127@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711211108p11632da7p16dd81311cad369c@mail.gmail.com>

oh, boy, oh boy, does Shadowrun come to mind...!!!!!!!!

On Nov 21, 2007 1:38 PM, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org
> > [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Rich Elswick
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 1:33 PM
> > To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> > Subject: Re: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first
> > person filemanager"
> >
> > ooohhhh I haven't seen anything like this as of yet....
> >
> > so many concepts flow just from the screenshots...
> >
> > preview abilities...
> >
> > Doors, they can be, they can also be other things... anything
> > really, so long as you know when you click on something, you
> > go somewhere....
> >
> > I bet this would make finding forgotten file locations oh so
> > much more fun!
> >
> > hell I would enjoy looking at the code...
> >
> > Very cool, I look forward to using this in the near future!
> >
> > Rich
> >
> > On Nov 21, 2007 12:23 PM, Ingles, Raymond
> > <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > > > From: Garry Stahl
> > > > So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?
> > >
> > >  That was a real program:
> > >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Graphics#Entertainment_industry
> > >
> > >  I do plan on stealing one idea from it: an alternate
> > coloring scheme
> > > will have recently-touched files be 'white-hot' and then they'll
> > > gradually 'cool' to black.
> > >
> > > > It looks cool.
> > >
> > >  Thanks. One thing I didn't anticipate is how wide the
> > rooms get when
> > > you've got a lot of subdirectories. My home directory is
> > unmanageably
> > > broad. I may have to re-think how to lay out the doors...
> > >
> > >  Sincerely,
> > >
> > >  Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317
> > >
> > >  "Sure, it's OK for Ashcroft to interrogate everyone who's ever
> > > glanced toward Mecca - *his* profiling was A-okay. In fact, if  you
> > > whined about it and brought up civil rights you were just
> > 'aiding the
> > > terrorists'. But at the airports, where we face the  most
> > obvious and
> > > imminent danger, we have become dangerously and
> > >    inexplicably committed to placing pretense over results."
> > >   - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
> > > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named
> > addressee only. It contains information that may be
> > confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an
> > authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose
> > it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify
> > us immediately and then destroy it.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
>
>        Is it wrong to ask for features?
>
>        Like instead of just files represented as boxes, there could be
> files represented with 3D Avatars of the user who owns the file wearing some
> sort of uniform colored to match the group...
>
>        Files one simply lacks access to could have some form of guardian
> avatar basically saying "No! Stand back!"
>
>        -Rob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img
src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0"
alt="The Pain Bank - SCA and WMA"/></a>


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 17:52:01 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:52:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <47446566.6080600@comcast.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
	<47446566.6080600@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711211452t10d42b8bt495d512483554064@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 12:05 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Thinking ourselves apart from nature causes us to make serious errors.
> While we are to the point unique in our ability alter our circumstances
> and environment, we are not "apart" from nature, and it helps to
> remember that.  "Nature" affects us as much if not more than we affect
> nature.

www.vhemt.org


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 18:19:11 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:19:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711211519m21ce10f4w9137c3303a7fce06@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 10:56 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  The only sticking point is the onboard "Geforce2 Go" graphics. The screen
> locks up if I used the closed-source Nvidia drivers, though the open-source
> "nv" one works fine. I'll have to see if I can get the binary ones working;
> I'm really curious to see if this machine can handle Compiz. :->

Update the BIOS and try disabling obsolete BIOS and video ROM
shadowing, etc.  Also check out:
www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=72897


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 21 20:07:54 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:07:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711211452t10d42b8bt495d512483554064@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>	<47446566.6080600@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90711211452t10d42b8bt495d512483554064@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4744D66A.8000400@comcast.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2007 12:05 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>   
>
> www.vhemt.org

Them first I say,

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From micorral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 21 22:36:03 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:36:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711212053090.4788@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-21, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
>> From: Robert Adkins
>> 	Like instead of just files represented as boxes, there could be
>> files represented with 3D Avatars of the user who owns the
>> file wearing some sort of uniform colored to match the group...
>
> Um, (a) this is my first 3D graphics program, and (b) I'm trying to
> make this usable on older hardware - right now I'm getting 30fps, even
> in a directory with hundreds of files, on a ~700MHz box with i810 graphics.

When it comes to writing a file manager, get used to people making
lots of requests. :) No doubt somebody (ahem) will insist that you
include ACL support, so that Linux will be "ready for the desktop"
and "support reasonable security practices". ;)

> But now we've got 3D hardware in
> every computer sold, and we're not really taking advantage of it.

The only thing holding us back are those pesky monitors. :)
Until someone comes up with a device that can produce holograms for
the objects the computer displays, then everything will continue to
be just variations on the same theme (projections of 3-dimensional
objects onto a 2-dimensional screen).

> I'm hoping
> to find a new metaphor, like the 'desktop' was the metaphor of the new, 2D
> graphical world in the 1980s. I won't get it all right; I may not get any of
> it right. But I figure it's worth messing with.

I have my doubts whether it's worth it (until we get hologram monitors).
You could argue that many existing GUI file managers (like Nautilus or
Konqueror) are already 3D: the icons in many cases are "3D", icons and
windows can be placed "behind" others, etc. It's an illusion of 3D,
of course, and all that the "3D" apps like Compiz, etc, do is make
various degrees of better illusions (like adding thin grey gradients
next to images to simulate shadows, or adding perspective angles to
simulate depth). Until the 2D monitor issue is solved, that's what
we're stuck with. And I've noticed that many people who were initially
wild about Compiz got bored with it and went back to their "boring"
old "2D" desktops.

In the case of professional CAD software (like Catia, Unigraphics)
used in, say, automobile design, those illusions are helpful, because
you really *do* need to see what the side of the car you're designing
looks like in relation to the front or back. But for something like a
file manager, do we really need to see what the back of xorg.conf
looks like?

> As an example of how *not* to do it, see tdfsb:
>
> http://www.determinate.net/webdata/seg/tdfsb.html
>
> The file size range is too broad, you can't find small files easily, you
> wind up walking between 'buildings' of large files. Just looking at a file,
> you can't tell much about it except size. A few file types have special
> treatment but in a fun rather than useful way. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not
> knocking his efforts - he's got something actually out there, and well before
> me - but I think that's the wrong underlying metaphor.)

How are you going to handle files of size 0 bytes, since you can't
take the logarithm of 0 to determine the icon height? Even a 1 byte
file would have a height of 0 = log_2 (1), by your sizing scheme.

Also, will the display have a legend for the permission colors, so
you don't have to remember what color corresponds to what permission?
And shouldn't you have colors for setgid and the sticky bit?

> All that being said, the source will be out there soon enough, and if you
> want to add such things, feel free. :->

I'm not knocking your efforts either, I can appreciate the amount of
work you've put into it. It looks interesting. It's no Jfilerunner,
of course :p , but I'll definitely try it out when it's ready.

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 23:29:32 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:29:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Blogging
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>

I don't have a web site but I decided to finally set up a blog.  I
think it took about a half-hour to set up.  Anyone else have a blog?
jhansonxi.blogspot.com


From wolfger at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 23:38:38 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:38:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Blogging
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711212038k5ee5194bt6a9286b60e354e26@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 11:29 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't have a web site but I decided to finally set up a blog.  I
> think it took about a half-hour to set up.  Anyone else have a blog?

Possibly.... ;-)

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov 22 02:09:31 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:09:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Blogging rev A.
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47452B2B.90709@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> I don't have a web site but I decided to finally set up a blog.  I
> think it took about a half-hour to set up.  Anyone else have a blog?

Millions and counting.

> jhansonxi.blogspot.com




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov 22 02:08:56 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:08:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Blogging
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47452B08.3080406@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> I don't have a web site but I decided to finally set up a blog.  I
> think it took about a half-hour to set up.  Anyone else have a blog?

Nope.

You're the first person on the planet to start one.




From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Thu Nov 22 10:30:52 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:30:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <474369AD.6090707@arb.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<474369AD.6090707@arb.net>
Message-ID: <1195745452.4761.13.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>

 
> Again, back to the topic of discussion. Opportunity for Linux based on
> real total cost of ownership....      
> Are you a tried and True MSCE ?  :-D    I usually don't get slammed so
> hard by Linux people what I talk about Linux, particularly when the
> lack of Windoze security is a factor.

Nope,  I've used LINUX as a desktop, solely (no dual boot) since RedHat
6.2 and AIX before that.  I've administered UNIX & LINUX servers since
LINUX kernel 0.99a.  And I've led a LINUX desktop trial project of over
80 machines.  

But I don't feel the need to shoo-away or conveniently dismiss real
deficiencies in the "product" where I've seen it not live-up to real
user needs.  That isn't how you make better software or solutions.  

I also don't accept nor will savvy business people, the fanboy
mud-slinging and fear mongering of Open Source "advocates" any more than
I do from proprietary vendors.  If Windows is as horrible as many of
these kinds of threads would leave one to believe then commerce in the
United States would be shutting down almost completely on a frequent
basis.  It doesn't, because it isn't  (or actually it is, IMO, but some
simple solutions band-aid the biggest problems - if someone chooses to
pay unholy sums of money for said band-aid, that isn't specifically a
Windows problem.).

There are many aspect of the LINUX OS and related packages that aren't
anywhere near ideal, trying to pooh-pooh those issues will only leave
you with a disappointed, or pissed off, client.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Thu Nov 22 10:34:48 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:34:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>

> In actual practice in the workplace, I've never seen
> u/g/o rwx to be insufficient for that sort of task.

Wow, and how many groups do you have defined on your system?

> I suppose the CIA would be an exception...but that's a VERY
> special exception.
> Even in the combat environment of Baghdad, ACLs are an
> extremely heavy-handed way of solving the problem (and
> in many ways, even clumsier than u/g/o rwx).

Clumsier than u/g/o? That's just crazy,  u/g/o is what is awkward and
arbitrary.  It is a clear vestige of a time when flexible security
wasn't an issue.

I'm sorry your user's can grasp "permissions".   Even my salespeople
intuitively understand permissions - "that how I can keep that other guy
from diddling with my accounts!"

Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Nov 22 10:54:33 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:54:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>
	<1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711220754x253122a1oc434e5fbc53d30e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 22, 2007 10:34 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> > In actual practice in the workplace, I've never seen
> > u/g/o rwx to be insufficient for that sort of task.
>
> Wow, and how many groups do you have defined on your system?
>
> > I suppose the CIA would be an exception...but that's a VERY
> > special exception.
> > Even in the combat environment of Baghdad, ACLs are an
> > extremely heavy-handed way of solving the problem (and
> > in many ways, even clumsier than u/g/o rwx).
>
> Clumsier than u/g/o? That's just crazy,  u/g/o is what is awkward and
> arbitrary.  It is a clear vestige of a time when flexible security
> wasn't an issue.


From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Nov 22 15:15:17 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:15:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195745452.4761.13.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<474369AD.6090707@arb.net>
	<1195745452.4761.13.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711221513490.2350@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-22, Monsieur Adam Tauno Williams a ecrit:
> Nope,  I've used LINUX as a desktop, solely (no dual boot) since RedHat
> 6.2 and AIX before that.  I've administered UNIX & LINUX servers since
> LINUX kernel 0.99a.  And I've led a LINUX desktop trial project of over
> 80 machines.

And yet you didn't know that Konqueror could handle ACLs. ;)

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov 22 23:06:54 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:06:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>	<47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>
	<1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <474651DE.4040401@hotpop.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> In actual practice in the workplace, I've never seen
>> u/g/o rwx to be insufficient for that sort of task.
> 
> Wow, and how many groups do you have defined on your system?
> 

In actual practice, the number of groups needed
is quite small.  Even for an organization as big as
General Motors, the number of non-admin groups
is in the range of a few dozen.

>> I suppose the CIA would be an exception...but that's a VERY
>> special exception.
>> Even in the combat environment of Baghdad, ACLs are an
>> extremely heavy-handed way of solving the problem (and
>> in many ways, even clumsier than u/g/o rwx).
> 
> Clumsier than u/g/o? That's just crazy,  u/g/o is what is awkward and
> arbitrary.  It is a clear vestige of a time when flexible security
> wasn't an issue.

Yes, MUCH clumsier than chowning a file to the proper group.

Especially when individual USERS rotate in and out of
theater, and are even killed unexpectedly, a properly
used group mechanism is much better.

Unfortunately, Windows doesn't even offer this simple,
effective methodology.  The use of ACL's cause me no
end of administrative headaches when I was in Baghdad.
There were times when I was called away from urgent
vehicle communications systems repairs to provide
access to files because, frankly, in practice, users
aren't all that brighht -- they thinkg "A, B, and C"
need access to this file, and don't even consider
what happens when A is on leave, B is off-post on
a mission, and C is also unavailable for whatever
reason (on a mission, wounded and demobilized, etc).
Or then SFC B is requested to work at battalion
headquarters, so now SFC D is the new operations
sergeant, and he needs to be included in the ACLs
for every file that SFC B had access to...

And with M$'s pathetic tools (i.e. basically, NONE),
it just made the whole experience that much worse.


> 
> I'm sorry your user's can grasp "permissions".   Even my salespeople

Oh, they understood permissions.  The problem is, it

> intuitively understand permissions - "that how I can keep that other guy
> from diddling with my accounts!"

I've yet to meet anyone who had difficulty
understanding ANY permission system ... the problem
is what how flexible is the permission system.

ACL's are extremely brittle, and other than places
where Top Secret, Compartmentalized Information rules
are needed, they're an utter pain in the rear to
both admins and users.

Most users would rather just specify that a certain
administrator-maintained list of people be allowed
to look at a file...because they tend to make files
useable by the same GROUPS of people over and over.
The last thing they want to do is have to update
ACL's for large numbers of files, just because one
new person is now supposed to have access to all
of the files, or conversely, the person has moved
on and you don't want that login ID having access
to those files any more.

It's just plain simpler for an admin to edit a
group, say "intel" or "cocdrs" or "bncdrs"
or "125INF" (for, respectively, intelligence,
company commanders, battalion commanders, and
members of 125th infantry).... and when a new
unit comes in, to just re-name the group (say,
from 125INF to 37MP) and update its membership
than to play a never ending ACL administration
game.

I can see ACL's as a good AUGMENTATION of u/g/o,
but it's as a stand-alone security model.




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov 23 10:38:27 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:38:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711212053090.4788@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael Corral

> When it comes to writing a file manager, get used to people making
> lots of requests. :) No doubt somebody (ahem) will insist that you
> include ACL support, so that Linux will be "ready for the desktop"
> and "support reasonable security practices". ;)

 Yeah, I'm sure there will be plenty of requests. I'm hoping that people
with more 3D experience will start taking roles in the project, frankly.
I've tried to modularize the code so it's fairly easy to work with. (For
a counterexample, tdfsb is all one big source file...)

> > But now we've got 3D hardware in
> > every computer sold, and we're not really taking advantage of it.
> 
> The only thing holding us back are those pesky monitors. :)
> Until someone comes up with a device that can produce holograms for
> the objects the computer displays, then everything will continue to
> be just variations on the same theme (projections of 3-dimensional
> objects onto a 2-dimensional screen).

 Yeah, but people still go to movies. There's still room to grow before
we get to holograms.

> You could argue that many existing GUI file managers (like Nautilus or
> Konqueror) are already 3D: the icons in many cases are "3D", icons and
> windows can be placed "behind" others, etc.

 That's true, and this might be a misguided effort, but I still think there
ought to be a way to apply that power to other means than games and CAD
visualizations.

> How are you going to handle files of size 0 bytes, since you can't
> take the logarithm of 0 to determine the icon height? Even a 1 byte
> file would have a height of 0 = log_2 (1), by your sizing scheme.

  /* Can't take log of zero (empty file). */
  if (file_r_info->file_info->fsize > 1) {
    /* This scale allows the height value to be used for both
       vertex and texture coords. */
    height = log(file_r_info->file_info->fsize) / (10*log(2));
  } else {
    height=0.01; /* Don't have to use polygon offset or anything silly
                    like that. */
  }

> Also, will the display have a legend for the permission colors, so
> you don't have to remember what color corresponds to what permission?

 That'll be configurable, yes.

> And shouldn't you have colors for setgid and the sticky bit?

 I do, listed in the design doc.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

 "Economies don't like step functions." - Dr. Leonard Bieman
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov 23 11:36:06 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:36:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711211519m21ce10f4w9137c3303a7fce06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACBA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jeff Hanson

> <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> >  The only sticking point is the onboard "Geforce2 Go" graphics.

> Update the BIOS and try disabling obsolete BIOS and video ROM
> shadowing, etc.  Also check out:
> www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=72897

 Thanks for the tips; I was able to update the BIOS (up 10 revisions,
actually) but it didn't change the behavior. It's funny; when it first boots,
it doesn't work, half the screen is Ubuntu orange. If I ctr-alt-backspace to
kill the X server, though, it comes back up fine. OpenGL is accelerated. Gltron
and Planet Penguin Racer run fine, but it's not quite up to BZflag, at least at
any sane resolution.

 It seems to lock up on shutdown, too, as reported in a couple threads. I have
to hold the power button down or yank the power cord to get a complete shutdown.
Still, there are a few options I have yet to try; we'll see how it goes. In any
case... hey, free laptop.

 (BTW... I was actually slightly lucky on the install. I've since discovered
that there can be a race condition if my Ubuntu box is acting as a DHCP server
at the same time as my firewall. You have to PXE-boot, then go disable the
second DHCP server before the installer tries to set up the network.)

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                 (313) 227-2317

 "If we have to live our lives weighing every action, every communication,
  every human contact, wondering what agents of the state might find out
 about it, analyze it, judge it, possibly misconstrue it, and somehow use
    it to our detriment, we are not truly free. That sort of life is
 characteristic of totalitarian countries, not a free and open society..."
         -  George Radwanski, Privacy Commissioner of Canada 
        http://www.privcom.gc.ca/information/ar/02_04_10_e.asp
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 23 11:51:31 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:51:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711212053090.4788@banana.sluggo.net>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <5aa434200711230851y3fce0fc6y204c46d27ec41af4@mail.gmail.com>

While you're at it, if a file is deleted while you're in the directory (so
that it's in your field of vision), a little gremlin should come running by,
eat it, and run off.

On a slightly less stupid note, have you considered being able to manipulate
files as well? For example, maybe I can walk over to a file, pick it up, and
walk over to some other directory, and put it down, thus moving the file.
Cleaning up my mess of a home directory might be more fun if I can lie to my
brain and say it's a game :)

- Mike

On Nov 23, 2007 10:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
wrote:

> > From: Michael Corral
>
> > When it comes to writing a file manager, get used to people making
> > lots of requests. :) No doubt somebody (ahem) will insist that you
> > include ACL support, so that Linux will be "ready for the desktop"
> > and "support reasonable security practices". ;)
>
>  Yeah, I'm sure there will be plenty of requests. I'm hoping that people
> with more 3D experience will start taking roles in the project, frankly.
> I've tried to modularize the code so it's fairly easy to work with. (For
> a counterexample, tdfsb is all one big source file...)
>
> > > But now we've got 3D hardware in
> > > every computer sold, and we're not really taking advantage of it.
> >
> > The only thing holding us back are those pesky monitors. :)
> > Until someone comes up with a device that can produce holograms for
> > the objects the computer displays, then everything will continue to
> > be just variations on the same theme (projections of 3-dimensional
> > objects onto a 2-dimensional screen).
>
>  Yeah, but people still go to movies. There's still room to grow before
> we get to holograms.
>
> > You could argue that many existing GUI file managers (like Nautilus or
> > Konqueror) are already 3D: the icons in many cases are "3D", icons and
> > windows can be placed "behind" others, etc.
>
>  That's true, and this might be a misguided effort, but I still think
> there
> ought to be a way to apply that power to other means than games and CAD
> visualizations.
>
> > How are you going to handle files of size 0 bytes, since you can't
> > take the logarithm of 0 to determine the icon height? Even a 1 byte
> > file would have a height of 0 = log_2 (1), by your sizing scheme.
>
>  /* Can't take log of zero (empty file). */
>  if (file_r_info->file_info->fsize > 1) {
>    /* This scale allows the height value to be used for both
>       vertex and texture coords. */
>    height = log(file_r_info->file_info->fsize) / (10*log(2));
>  } else {
>    height=0.01; /* Don't have to use polygon offset or anything silly
>                    like that. */
>  }
>
> > Also, will the display have a legend for the permission colors, so
> > you don't have to remember what color corresponds to what permission?
>
>  That'll be configurable, yes.
>
> > And shouldn't you have colors for setgid and the sticky bit?
>
>  I do, listed in the design doc.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Economies don't like step functions." - Dr. Leonard Bieman
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose
> it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately
> and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
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From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Nov 23 12:14:59 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:14:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Lite: 5 Tiny Distros That Pack A Big Bang
In-Reply-To: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <47470A93.30200@comcast.net>

Stan Green wrote:
> Here is an article from Information Week that I thought some here might find 
> interesting. 
>
>   

Yes, it was useful.  I have DSL myself but have yet to play wit h it.  I
think I have Puppy too.  Need to get the lab machine clear and working
again.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From rrclark at rrclark.net  Fri Nov 23 13:57:36 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:57:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0711231355190.11604@rich.rrclark.net>

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, David Lane wrote:

> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a 
> Windows pc?

I'm using Xming (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xming). Combined with 
putty, which you can download from the same repository, it works 
wonderfully. I often swap between 2 laptops, one running Ubuntu, the other 
XP, and I'll start X apps hosted on the Ubuntu laptop via SSH with extreme 
ease on the XP laptop.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Fri Nov 23 14:02:27 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:02:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
References: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0711231359340.11604@rich.rrclark.net>

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Garry Stahl wrote:
> I simply seriously object to having something I do not want shoved down
> my throat.  I can't buy a new laptop for example without paying the
> Vista Tax.  I want a new laptop and really need one.  But there is that
> Vista tax and it really sticks in my craw.

I just bought my son a laptop for his birthday via Dell's website. Offered 
were some pretty powerful Inspiron models installed with XP. You can guess 
what we chose. When it arrives I'll probably reformat the hard drive and
reinstall XP in one partition and Ubuntu or Mandriva in several other 
partitions.

You can also order similar models with Ubuntu only installed, and I'm 
typing on a Dell Inspiron 1420 that came factory-installed with Ubuntu. 
I've had zero problems with this laptop.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 23 16:59:18 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:59:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACBA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <b02c40e90711211519m21ce10f4w9137c3303a7fce06@mail.gmail.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACBA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711231359n515733feube93d13a391656bc@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 23, 2007 11:36 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  It seems to lock up on shutdown, too, as reported in a couple threads. I have
> to hold the power button down or yank the power cord to get a complete shutdown.
> Still, there are a few options I have yet to try; we'll see how it goes. In any
> case... hey, free laptop.

Could be an ACPI or APIC bug.  There are kernel options for disabling APIC, etc.


From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Nov 23 19:22:04 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:22:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071119201149.7F3851412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071119201149.7F3851412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47476EAC.5020902@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> What about the company "Emperor Linux" or something.
>
> They advertise in one of the Linux rags. They sell laptops with Linux
> pre-installed. They might have some that lack the "Vista tax".
>   

I'm looking over their offerings and while not the cheapest in town they
are offering three year warranties, and distro of your choice.  Debian
to Unbuntu.  I think I'll explore their options further.  Man I would
love to get a SuSE loaded laptop right out of the box, tweaked to he
hardware it runs on.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Thu Nov 22 21:04:33 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:04:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Fashion-sensitive buys unix (iMac)
Message-ID: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>

Trend watchers,

A friend who for the last decade has been a staunch Microsoft and
Windows advocate just knowingly bought an iMac, after last year
(unknowingly) buying a linux-inside box.

This friend is a reliable indicator of what is fashionable.
For over a decade they have disparaged unix,
multiple desktops, permission systems,
and in particular both Mac and linux,
as "criminal" and "unusable".
The sudden change comes as a shock,
and within my experience,
a reliable indicator of change in social standing.

My fear is that they generally accept anything only after it has
become monopolized with a crippling markup.
I hope that linux is not so destined.

Astoundly reporting,
-- 
Robert Meier

  "In theory, theory and practice are the same.
   In practice, they are different."
		-- unknown


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Thu Nov 22 20:39:45 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:39:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <5aa434200711230851y3fce0fc6y204c46d27ec41af4@mail.gmail.com>
	(unforgiven24@gmail.com)
References: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711212053090.4788@banana.sluggo.net>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<5aa434200711230851y3fce0fc6y204c46d27ec41af4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071123013945.A362F21EA4F@starfox.local>

Ray,

> While you're at it, if a file is deleted while you're in the directory (so
> that it's in your field of vision), a little gremlin should come running by,
> eat it, and run off.

Consider adding (disabled by default) ability to run scripts
based on file system state changes.  This could include files that are
growing "bubbling like lava" (in keeping with your hot -> cool change
meter).

I suspect that an interface to run scripts should be something to think
about now, and add in the next release.

My $0.02,
-- 
Robert Meier

"Freedom is freedom only if it also applies
 for the one who thinks differently."
     -- Rosa Luxemburg



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 00:14:22 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:14:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fashion-sensitive buys unix (iMac)
In-Reply-To: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
References: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711232114x6efaa261u37db023828270524@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 22, 2007 9:04 PM, Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> Trend watchers,
>
> A friend who for the last decade has been a staunch Microsoft and
> Windows advocate just knowingly bought an iMac, after last year
> (unknowingly) buying a linux-inside box.

For the masses no amount of usability studies, cost/benefit analysis,
security aspects, and stability comparisons can have as much impact as
just being "trendy".  It's a fundamental property of being a sheep -
don't do anything risky but don't be left behind when the rest of the
herd jumps off a cliff.


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 01:15:04 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:15:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fashion-sensitive buys unix (iMac)
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711232114x6efaa261u37db023828270524@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
	<b02c40e90711232114x6efaa261u37db023828270524@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430711232215r1d55437bhbca74691a5fd1829@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 24, 2007 12:14 AM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 22, 2007 9:04 PM, Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> > Trend watchers,
> >
> > A friend who for the last decade has been a staunch Microsoft and
> > Windows advocate just knowingly bought an iMac, after last year
> > (unknowingly) buying a linux-inside box.
>
> For the masses no amount of usability studies, cost/benefit analysis,
> security aspects, and stability comparisons can have as much impact as
> just being "trendy".  It's a fundamental property of being a sheep -
> don't do anything risky but don't be left behind when the rest of the
> herd jumps off a cliff.
>

Well put, Jeff.  Well put.

-Joseph


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov 23 22:53:36 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:53:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fashion-sensitive buys unix (iMac)
In-Reply-To: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
References: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <4747A040.1090808@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Trend watchers,
> 
> A friend who for the last decade has been a staunch Microsoft and
> Windows advocate just knowingly bought an iMac, after last year
> (unknowingly) buying a linux-inside box.

Technically, it's BSD-inside, but yes, it is a *nix ;-)

> This friend is a reliable indicator of what is fashionable.
> For over a decade they have disparaged unix,
> multiple desktops, permission systems,
> and in particular both Mac and linux,
> as "criminal" and "unusable".
> The sudden change comes as a shock,
> and within my experience,
> a reliable indicator of change in social standing.
> 
> My fear is that they generally accept anything only after it has
> become monopolized with a crippling markup.
> I hope that linux is not so destined.
> 
> Astoundly reporting,





From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Nov 24 08:07:54 2007
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:07:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200711240807.58139.davidl@lmert.com>

On Tuesday 20 November 2007 10:10, David Lane wrote:
> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux. And I'm about to implement
> web, data, and email servers.
>
> So yes  Full Remotes for both from both.

Ray mentioned Cygwin/X.  I use this daily at work; I usually have one emacs 
process running on my Linux workstation, and select "File > Open Frame on New 
Display..." to display it on my Windows workstation as well.

In the other direction, you can use the Linux client for the Remote Desktop 
Protocol (the wrapper-package on Ubuntu is called "tsclient").  

In either direction,  you can use VNC.

If you just want to execute text-only programs (for instance to start/stop 
services, "net start" on Windows and "/etc/init.d/... start" on Linux) you 
can use SSH.  Cygwin has an SSH server and client;  I'm pretty sure that 
Microsoft Services for Unix does too.  However,  I usually use PuTTY as an 
SSH client from Windows.

> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:26:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
>
> David Lane wrote:
> > Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from
>
>  a
>
> > Windows pc?
> >
> > David
>
> Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
> applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
> have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
> Linux running in a VMware player session.
>
> It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
> this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
> is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
> in on Vista.
>
> I'm not sure what facilities cygwin provides but if you just need a
> local X environment for the display of remote applications this seems
> like a good way to go.
>
> Raymond McLaughlin
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>_________ Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you
> with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. 
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 19:49:53 2007
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael Newman)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:49:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
Message-ID: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

I am new to the area and the group and have been really enjoyed the  
topics of the last few weeks, and I need a bit of advice from you  
experts as I am moving my work experience of Linux to my personal  
network and day-to-day computing.

Yesterday was black Friday, and looking at sales we saw quite a few  
printers that were really great. My home network is all connected to  
base ubuntu server 7.10 and my current lexmark x7100 series, which  
worked great on my old Windows network that I am desperately getting  
rid of, doesn't have any support according to internet searches.

I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the  
scanners work well too? How do they work in a shared environment? What  
level of difficulty work it take to install this on my network? Has  
anyone done this with an hp printer? Lastly, but not least, anyone  
have any recommendations of a linux compatable scanner/printer/copier  
that prints photographs (high quality).

Thanks,

Michael Newman


From tony at bemushosting.com  Sat Nov 24 20:37:34 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:37:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
In-Reply-To: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
References: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1195954655.14110.11.camel@bemus-tony>

I have a HP PSC-1210 printer/copier/scanner and My Ubuntu desktop
recognized it with no problems, both the printer and the scanner.
  I shared the printer out with samba for my wife's laptop and my XP VM.
I had to find some alternate drivers (HP 3420) for windows to use it
across the network.  I then shared the drivers to make it easy to get to
the drivers from windows.

Tony


On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 19:49 -0500, Michael Newman wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am new to the area and the group and have been really enjoyed the  
> topics of the last few weeks, and I need a bit of advice from you  
> experts as I am moving my work experience of Linux to my personal  
> network and day-to-day computing.
> 
> Yesterday was black Friday, and looking at sales we saw quite a few  
> printers that were really great. My home network is all connected to  
> base ubuntu server 7.10 and my current lexmark x7100 series, which  
> worked great on my old Windows network that I am desperately getting  
> rid of, doesn't have any support according to internet searches.
> 
> I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the  
> scanners work well too? How do they work in a shared environment? What  
> level of difficulty work it take to install this on my network? Has  
> anyone done this with an hp printer? Lastly, but not least, anyone  
> have any recommendations of a linux compatable scanner/printer/copier  
> that prints photographs (high quality).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Michael Newman
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
-- 
Tony Bemus
Bemus Hosting
www.bemushosting.com



From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Nov 24 20:59:11 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:59:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
In-Reply-To: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
References: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711242044330.3421@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-24, Monsieur Michael Newman a ecrit:
> Yesterday was black Friday, and looking at sales we saw quite a few
> printers that were really great. My home network is all connected to
> base ubuntu server 7.10 and my current lexmark x7100 series, which
> worked great on my old Windows network that I am desperately getting
> rid of, doesn't have any support according to internet searches.

You could try the drivers for the 7200 or 7000. Those come with CUPS.
Worst case you can try importing the Windows .ppd file for the 7100,
most distros have a printer configuartion GUI that lets you do that.

> I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the
> scanners work well too? How do they work in a shared environment? What
> level of difficulty work it take to install this on my network? Has
> anyone done this with an hp printer? Lastly, but not least, anyone
> have any recommendations of a linux compatable scanner/printer/copier
> that prints photographs (high quality).

I have an HP laserjet hooked up to my router via JetDirect, so all
the computers on my home LAN, regardless of OS, can use it without
needing a dedicated print server that's always on. It was dead simple
to set up in Fedora.

Michael


From gib at juno.com  Sat Nov 24 22:10:31 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 03:10:31 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Forrester Linux vs XP
Message-ID: <20071124.221031.20543.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com>

 
 
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2217087,00.asp


_____________________________________________________________
Turn your website into a store with great shopping cart services. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieUEHhb6f7pakMYivEuX2g8oQ4wNK0dP2ESvCEIRXCCYdAKQ/


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 22:25:06 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:25:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
In-Reply-To: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
References: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711241925s5293b11cxf843a07c474b22@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 24, 2007 7:49 PM, Michael Newman <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
> I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the
> scanners work well too? How do they work in a shared environment? What
> level of difficulty work it take to install this on my network? Has
> anyone done this with an hp printer? Lastly, but not least, anyone
> have any recommendations of a linux compatable scanner/printer/copier
> that prints photographs (high quality).

I picked up some at BF.  I just started testing them.  The list is in my blog:
http://jhansonxi.blogspot.com/2007/11/my-linux-aspected-black-friday-assault.html


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 03:15:31 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:15:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] New Linus interview
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711260015s45bf0087p445b2d0c3c9c37f3@mail.gmail.com>

InformationWeek interview:
"Torvalds On Where Linux Is Headed In 2008"
<http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204202971>

~~ Mikey


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 08:33:52 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:33:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
In-Reply-To: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACBF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael Newman

> I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the  
> scanners work well too?

 Yup, no problems. We have an HP 3201xi and it scans and prints very well under
Linux. On glossy paper, pictures look very good indeed - indistinguishable from
those you'd get at the drugstore or whatever.

 (As a bonus... the Windows driver software is, I kid you not, 800MB in size.
On Linux, it's <10MB.)

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                 (313) 227-2317

 The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable
  operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying
          to take over the world.  - Drakmere
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 08:34:28 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:34:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>

And back to the original post... I played it and it is pretty fun. At 
$20 online, I think I'll pass for now, but maybe in the future. Since 
sound doesn't work in linux on my laptop, I tried the Windows version in 
Vista and it actually works. Interestingly enough, it seems like the 
game was made by a few computer geeks who formed a small company. They 
make a few other games (cross-compatible) which I'm going to try soon 
also. At $4 a pop, that's a steal IMO.

Well, I'm in my programming class now, and it's back to acting like I'm 
paying attention like I haven't taken the class twice before.

Try the demo out. You might like it.

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff. It
> also has a unique look, simple but pleasing graphics. For that price, I think it's
> well worth picking up. I got it for full price when it came out and I don't feel
> cheated. As a bonus, it doesn't take up GB of space on disk; the environments are
> fractal and the data files small.
>   


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 08:38:15 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:38:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <20071123013945.A362F21EA4F@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC0@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Meier

> Consider adding (disabled by default) ability to run scripts
> based on file system state changes.  This could include files that are
> growing "bubbling like lava" (in keeping with your hot -> cool change
> meter).
> 
> I suspect that an interface to run scripts should be 
> something to think about now, and add in the next release.

 There will be a way to do that. Linux has an interface called 'inotify'
which can watch for filesystem changes and notify an app without polling. I'll
be adding that once I've got the basics finished up. As soon as you can actually
take a tour of the filesystem, walk around and visit various directories, I'll
be posting the source code.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith
       does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 08:57:57 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:57:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
Message-ID: <474AD0E5.50007@gmail.com>

Was: "A big opportunity for Linux?"

I've set up VNC manually before, and I have run a free X client in 
Windows to spit out stuff from my X server over the network through a 
SSH session (works very fast, forgot what the software was called). By 
far the easiest solution I have come across is NoMachine 
(www.nomachine.com). You set it up on the linux box as the server, throw 
in an IP address or hostname on your Windows client, and it works. The 
"NX Free Edition" for linux (from what I remember) is a server and 
client package, which you will install on your linux box. Then you get 
the Windows client (also free) to connect to the server. The only 
problems I've had with it were when I was trying to connect to Oakand 
University's server with the newest client. When I set it up at home 
though, using the newest version on both computers worked pretty well. 
It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation and everything 
should be fine. It's pretty darn fast over the Internet. I just wish 
that it wouldn't create a new X server session. I'd like to use the 
current running session, but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.

Now if only there was a LogMeIn server for linux (www.logmein.com). I 
love that stuff.



From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 26 09:38:25 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:38:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
Message-ID: <20071126144513.674581412E@impelind.com>

	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically ignoring the WiFi
adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It has a "Dell Truemobile 1300"
wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.

	I went to the NDISwrapper site, read through the wiki a bit and
found an excellent listing of what cards/drivers are supposed to work.
(Which also included links to those drivers.)

	The removal of the non-working opensource bcm4xx driver and
installation of the ndiswrapper with Windows driver went smoothly. I fired
up kwifi and voila! I was able to show a signal, scan and see my WPA
configured wifi router and... Nothin..

	I entered my passkey as the kwifi did correctly identify the
necessary configuration. Unfortunately, that didn't work. The wpa_supplicant
fired up, still nothing worked.

	As a test, I temporarily set the wifi router into an open, no
authentication needed setup and I was able to connect without any problem.

	Right now, I am assuming that there is some issue with the Windows
driver that isn't allowing the wpa_supplicant to properly do its job. It may
also be that the wifi router (Linksys WRT54G) is setup in a way that the
driver I am using just can't grok and thus needs to be configured using a
different WPA setup.

	Anyone in a similar situation and have a few pointers?

	Really, I have no problem with plugging the laptop into the wall
jacks at home. As it stands, I should be able to connect fine to the free
wifi setups at coffee shops and other locations. I would really enjoy being
able to use my wifi anywhere in the house.

	Thanks for any assistance,	
	
	Rob



From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 26 10:54:57 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:54:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195745452.4761.13.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <20071126160145.3E3161412E@impelind.com>


> 
> Nope,  I've used LINUX as a desktop, solely (no dual boot) 
> since RedHat
> 6.2 and AIX before that.  I've administered UNIX & LINUX 
> servers since LINUX kernel 0.99a.  And I've led a LINUX 
> desktop trial project of over 80 machines.  
> 

	Is this project one in which you pushed GNOME and then later
discovered it lacked the key feature (ACL options in Nautilus) that a client
required?

>
> But I don't feel the need to shoo-away or conveniently 
> dismiss real deficiencies in the "product" where I've seen it 
> not live-up to real user needs.  That isn't how you make 
> better software or solutions.  
> 

	This is a Linux USERS Group. 

	As a single group, we have nothing to do with the development models
or practices set forth and observed by any independent group providing a
Linux software solution. All we realistically can do is observe what is
available, comment on other solutions that are available and suggest
alternatives that may suit one's needs better than a particular offering
provides. This is of course ignoring the fact that any single member here
could actually have membership in a group that does provide development work
on product(s) in question. If someone here happens to have such an outside
membership, maybe he/she could/should become involved in working out such an
issue.

	Anyway, with that in mind, we certainly can shoo-away and
"conveniently dismiss real definciencies" (especially in an offering that
never aimed to provide such functions in the first place) and recommend
alternatives that actually do provide the needed functionality. That's what
we are here for, it's just part and parcel of what a LUG is all about.

	If you want to talk to people who aren't supposed to be shooing away
deficiencies, then the best practice would be to take the argument to those
who actually have a stake in the product. (This isn't always the distributor
of the particular Linux OS you are looking at.)

	For example, you dislike GNOME's Nautilus offering lacking ACL
support? Take it to the GNOME mailing list and present your case to the
GNOME Nautilus development group. If they shoo the problem away, then you
can point to them and call them names and or get all disgruntled over what
they are "supposed" to be doing. (Which is work towards providing the best
damn desktop, ever. From what I understand.)

	Going on about such things here, just feels like FUD, regardless of
what you have done for the past 10 to 20 years professionally. This is the
place to discuss solutions and alternatives to niggling issues, not the
place to talk about how an extremely tight set of circumstances somehow
makes Linux unsuitable for the desktop.

	Tight sets of circumstances can be put together to make practically
anything wholly unsuited to a given purpose.

>
> I also don't accept nor will savvy business people, the 
> fanboy mud-slinging and fear mongering of Open Source 
> "advocates" any more than I do from proprietary vendors.  If 
> Windows is as horrible as many of these kinds of threads 
> would leave one to believe then commerce in the United States 
> would be shutting down almost completely on a frequent basis. 
>  It doesn't, because it isn't  (or actually it is, IMO, but 
> some simple solutions band-aid the biggest problems - if 
> someone chooses to pay unholy sums of money for said 
> band-aid, that isn't specifically a Windows problem.).
> 

	I concur.

	Windows isn't so terrible that the business world is mere seconds
away from grinding to a complete halt. That still doesn't make Windows the
perfect gem of an OS that many fanboy mud-slinging and fear mongering
Windows "advocates" put forward. Windows just happens to have the largest
marketshare due to proven abuse of monopoly powers by Microsoft and happens
to be "good enough" to do the job many people need.	

>
> There are many aspect of the LINUX OS and related packages 
> that aren't anywhere near ideal, trying to pooh-pooh those 
> issues will only leave you with a disappointed, or pissed off, client.
> 

	Of course, setting up a client with configurations that are far from
ideal, either by failing to anticipate the needs or wants can go a long way
towards making a client feel disappointed or pissed off.

	...and don't even get me started on that BS that some software
vendors have of changing absolutely everything for no really strong reason
and then ignoring the fact that such changes will cause endless support
headaches as users who were used to one way of doing things suddenly finds
that way impossible or simply missing. (I am looking at MS and their OS
interface changes from Win2K to WinXP and Office 97 to Office 2000 to Office
XP. Those changes caused and sometimes still give me grief here in the
office from the same users time and time again.)

	-Rob



From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 11:24:54 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:24:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
References: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <474AF356.8070801@gmail.com>

I personally have not done filtering in squid except for a couple 
ad-blocking programs that work along-side of it. If you want to skip 
trying to configure squid for filtering but would still like to use it 
as a caching proxy server, you may be able to do the old hosts file 
trick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosts_file#Ad_filtering). If 
everyone needs to go through the server, this may work, but I'm sure 
people could just change their DNS server to bypass it if you don't 
block DNS from coming in. I'm not quite sure if it would work, but it may.

You may want to look at this instead though -> 
http://calomel.org/squid_adservers.html
It briefly shows you how to use a separate file for all of the rules, 
and download the rules automatically so you don't have to write them 
yourself. This is of course for blocking ads, but you can use your own 
rules exclusively or append your own so that it blocks ads and 
illegitimate websites.

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
>
> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.  
> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.   
> Well, thanks for reading.  
>   



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 12:51:12 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:51:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711231359n515733feube93d13a391656bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC3@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jeff Hanson

> <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> >  It seems to lock up on shutdown, too, as reported in a couple threads.

> Could be an ACPI or APIC bug.  There are kernel options for 
> disabling APIC, etc.

 Nah, the kernel module options listed in the first thread you pointed out solved
it. It now starts up and shuts down cleanly. It's a pretty fun little machine; I've
been enjoying getting some games going on it.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                           (313) 227-2317

  "The Justice Department lifted a requirement Monday that the FBI
  ensure the accuracy and timeliness of information about criminals
      and crime victims before adding it to the country's most
        comprehensive law enforcement database." (03/24/2003)
 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22955-2003Mar25.html

 A case of mistaken identity led the FBI to detain a British retiree
       in a South African jail for three weeks. (02/28/2003)
          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2799791.stm
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 13:34:15 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:34:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

I have a niece who really wants to play "Sims 2", but her computer's a 1GHz
PIII with onboard Intel graphics, and that's not enough. The game wants either
an 800MHz processor and a video card w/Hardware T&L, or else a 2GHz processor.
There aren't any AGP slots in her computer.

 I have an AGP card - the above listed Geforce2 MX 200 w/32MB VRAM - but that
does her little good. I'm hoping to trade that card for a Geforce-level video
card with a PCI (not PCI-Express!) interface. Does anyone have a card like that
lying around that they would be willing to trade for?

 As an alternative, I have a motherboard with an AGP slot, but it takes Slot 1
CPUs and I only have a 450MHz PIII for that one. Does anyone have a faster
Slot 1 CPU they'd be willing to trade for? Thanks...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317
 
 "I'm almost seventy percent sure it does nothing harmful."
         - http://www.ubersoft.net/d/20040115.html
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 13:55:00 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:55:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <474AD0E5.50007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Kristoffer Marshall

> It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation and everything 
> should be fine. It's pretty darn fast over the Internet. I just wish 
> that it wouldn't create a new X server session. I'd like to use the 
> current running session, but I haven't seen anything like 
> that for linux.

 There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.

 Even works for Windows, given an X server running on Windows, like xming
or Cygwin's X server.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317

 "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
     21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
                            Steven Waldman
     http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
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From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 13:42:58 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:42:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Forrester Linux vs XP
In-Reply-To: <20071124.221031.20543.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC5@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: gib at juno.com

> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2217087,00.asp

 Amusing. These research groups have always lowballed their estimates of Linux
penetration and then been shown up later. From what I recall, Forrester has
been the least pessimistic, though.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                     (313) 227-2317

 "The whole principle is wrong; it's like demanding that grown
    men live on skim milk because the baby can't eat steak."
             - Robert A. Heinlein on censorship.
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From admin at linuxtechdaily.com  Mon Nov 26 14:12:45 2007
From: admin at linuxtechdaily.com (Rich Hughes)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:12:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <474B1AAD.2020501@linuxtechdaily.com>

I have an ATI Rage 128 PCI card just sitting around. I'd be happy to let 
you have it, no charge, if it meets your requirements.

Back in the day that card was awesome on Linux.

Thanks,
Rich Hughes


Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> I have a niece who really wants to play "Sims 2", but her computer's a 1GHz
> PIII with onboard Intel graphics, and that's not enough. The game wants either
> an 800MHz processor and a video card w/Hardware T&L, or else a 2GHz processor.
> There aren't any AGP slots in her computer.
>
>  I have an AGP card - the above listed Geforce2 MX 200 w/32MB VRAM - but that
> does her little good. I'm hoping to trade that card for a Geforce-level video
> card with a PCI (not PCI-Express!) interface. Does anyone have a card like that
> lying around that they would be willing to trade for?
>
>  As an alternative, I have a motherboard with an AGP slot, but it takes Slot 1
> CPUs and I only have a 450MHz PIII for that one. Does anyone have a faster
> Slot 1 CPU they'd be willing to trade for? Thanks...
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317
>  
>  "I'm almost seventy percent sure it does nothing harmful."
>          - http://www.ubersoft.net/d/20040115.html
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 14:42:47 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:42:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <474B1AAD.2020501@linuxtechdaily.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Rich Hughes

> I have an ATI Rage 128 PCI card just sitting around. I'd be happy to let 
> you have it, no charge, if it meets your requirements.

 I greatly appreciate the offer, but Sims 2 needs "Hardware Transform &
Lighting"; an ATI Radeon 7200 or above, or an Nvidia Geforce or above would
be needed. :-<

> Back in the day that card was awesome on Linux.

 I have a PCI Rage Pro that did my first 3D stuff for Linux. Got Quake running
pretty well, but it wasn't until the TNT card that things really got going. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                         (313) 227-2317

      "If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color."
                          - Anonymous
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From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 15:13:42 2007
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:13:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video	card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

 I greatly appreciate the offer, but Sims 2 needs "Hardware Transform &
> Lighting"; an ATI Radeon 7200 or above, or an Nvidia Geforce or above would
> be needed. :-<

I have an ATI Radeon 9550 if you want it :D

-Jason
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From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 15:26:59 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:26:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jason

> > I greatly appreciate the offer, but Sims 2 needs "Hardware Transform &
> > Lighting"; an ATI Radeon 7200 or above, or an Nvidia Geforce or above would
> > be needed. :-<
> 
> I have an ATI Radeon 9550 if you want it :D

 Sounds lovely, but it'd have to have a PCI (not PCI-Express) bus, and I
don't think any were made. According to Wikipedia, my only hope with ATI is
a Radeon 7200, 7500, or 9000-9250:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ATI_Graphics_Processing_Units

 I know, picky-picky. I'm trying to be a beggar *and* a chooser. Still, I'm
willing to negotiate trades of other hardware for such a card; I have a desktop
Wifi card (that works with Linux) that I would add to the above Geforce card
in exchange for a PCI Hardware T&L card, or a 800MHz+ Slot 1 CPU.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                       (313) 227-2317

 "...brute-force attacks against 256-bit keys will be infeasable
  until computers are built from something other than matter and
      occupy something other than space." - Bruce Schnier
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 18:52:50 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:52:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711261552t4f99b161v3aa2222fcd79f0e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 26, 2007 3:26 PM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  Sounds lovely, but it'd have to have a PCI (not PCI-Express) bus, and I
> don't think any were made. According to Wikipedia, my only hope with ATI is
> a Radeon 7200, 7500, or 9000-9250:

Thanks to Vista, several video card manufacturers have come out with
Nvidia-based PCI adapters in order to take advantage of M$ marketing
BS and the clueless masses who think any PCI-based system will run it
adequately.  Search with Pricegrabber.com:
computers.pricegrabber.com/video-cards/p/5/popup2%5B%5D=2:596


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 26 19:56:20 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:56:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-26, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
>> From: Jason
>> I have an ATI Radeon 9550 if you want it :D
>
> Sounds lovely, but it'd have to have a PCI (not PCI-Express) bus, and I
> don't think any were made. According to Wikipedia, my only hope with ATI is
> a Radeon 7200, 7500, or 9000-9250:

The plain PCI versions of those were not that common. You may have to
spend money on one. I see a PCI 7500 on ebay right now for $19 + s/h.
You may have luck finding a cheap one at MicroCenter in Madison Heights,
I seem to recall seeing a PCI version of some OEM Radeon 7200 there.

I have a 7500 I could part with, but it's AGP. :( I do have some PCI
cards laying around (not ATI), I could try to check if they support
hardware T&L. If so, I wouldn't want to trade for any computer stuff
you have (I have too much as it is!). Instead, I'd want some kind of
pastry from the "fantastic bakery in Livonia, Michigan" that your
wife runs. :)

BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.

Michael


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Sun Nov 25 23:47:40 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:47:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	(Raymond.Ingles@compuware.com)
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071126044740.E5699127C58@starfox.local>

Kristoffer, Ray,

> > It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> > compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation ...
> There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
> and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
> they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.

ssh -X also sets up a new X-server (default :10.0).

> > I just wish that it wouldn't create a new X server session.
> > I'd like to use the current running session,
> > but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.

The ability for remote (including VNC) executables to access an X
server has been part of X since its inception in the 1980s.

<HINT>
If you wish to use the same X-server,
you simply need to inform the executables to address the same X-server.
This is usually done with the --display option or environment variable
DISPLAY.
The address is "<host-or-ip>:<server-no>.<screen-no>" .
Note that you will have to open up the appropriate firewall channels
on BOTH hosts.  Typically this is ports 6000-6030(?).
Use "bash> xhost +<host-as-reported-to-X-server>" to authorize access
to the server.
You may need to copy appropriate ~/.Xauthority cookie to the remote host.
</HINT>

See X(7) for further details.

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Robert Meier

  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
   oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
   will reach to himself."
	--Thomas Paine


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 01:58:38 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:58:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127015550.029811f0@pop.gmail.com>

At 07:56 PM 11/26/07, Michael Corral wrote:

>BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
>rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.

     No need for a video card here; but do you by chance have a PCI serial
card? This would be mildly useful.

----

- Drew.



From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 02:13:46 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:13:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>

     I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of 
memory. There are two
slots, each currently containing a 256M module. The motherboard book 
specification for
memory reads as follows:

DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)

     Now I am currently beginning to see near acceptable prices for 
desktop 1GB modules
in the ads of Best Buy, Office Max, etc. However, how shall I know 
whether the module
will even fit into the slot let alone function without the computer 
going wonky because
of incompatibility? Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard 
now hopelessly
out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)

     Thanks;

   - Drew.



From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Nov 27 00:30:57 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:30:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127015550.029811f0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20071127015550.029811f0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711270029210.5305@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-27, Monsieur Drew a ecrit:
> At 07:56 PM 11/26/07, Michael Corral wrote:
>> BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
>> rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.
>
>     No need for a video card here; but do you by chance have a PCI serial
> card?

No. I've never even seen such a thing.

Michael


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 01:58:06 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:58:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711262258i4c35eb50lc8f2c700e9508f09@mail.gmail.com>

Drew wrote:
>     I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of
> memory. There are two slots, each currently containing a 256M module.
> DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
> DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)

The referenced RAM is standard DDR memory.  Though the current
standard is DDR2 (with DDR3 just becoming available), first-generation
DDR is still being manufactured and is widely available.  Of course,
faster is better -- but most DDR available currently is 266 or higher.

Now is a REALLY good time to buy RAM, as most manufacturers are about
to cut back their production -- the failure of WinVista in the
marketplace has lead to a glut of RAM module availability, and NOBODY
is making any money on memory -- even Samsung, with their massive
economies of scale, is taking a beating.

Depending somewhat upon the processor and chipset, it's usually a good
idea to fill both slots with RAM that has the same capacity and speed
specifications.

~~ Mikey


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 02:10:15 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:10:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711262310v6b6f184eta8c58f368541c431@mail.gmail.com>

Raymond Ingles wrote:
> I have a desktop Wifi card (that works with Linux) that I would add to the above
> Geforce card in exchange for a PCI Hardware T&L card, or a 800MHz+ Slot 1 CPU.

Slot-1 CPUs were not made faster than about 600-650 MHZ (to my
knowledge), as the Pentium III's i810 chipset or your niece's i815
chipset are intended for Socket 370 processors.  Your older MB has a
440BX chipset or the older 440LX, neither of which support faster
processors (or SDRAM faster than 66 MHz without overclocking).

You might check with Silicon Alley Recyclers --
www.SiliconAlleyRecyclers.us -- to see if they have anything useful
and cheap...

~~ Mikey


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Nov 27 05:30:56 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:30:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BF1E0.2090704@comcast.net>

Drew wrote:
>      I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of 
> memory. There are two
> slots, each currently containing a 256M module. The motherboard book 
> specification for
> memory reads as follows:
>
> DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
> DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)
>
>      Now I am currently beginning to see near acceptable prices for 
> desktop 1GB modules
> in the ads of Best Buy, Office Max, etc. However, how shall I know 
> whether the module
> will even fit into the slot let alone function without the computer 
> going wonky because
> of incompatibility? Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard 
> now hopelessly
> out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)
>
>   
The DDR200/266 stat.  That tells you the type of memory.  Notch and pin
locations vary.  Fer example if I buy DDR2100 I know it fits Gate.  Mind
you Gate's RAM buying days are over.  All filled and bigger will not matter.

However, I have a par of boxes that would benefit from more RAM stuffed
in same.  Faux and Maestro  could use more each. Both are at 512m and
have lots of room.  One is running XP, and we know how winblows is about
RAM.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Nov 27 06:11:43 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:11:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711262310v6b6f184eta8c58f368541c431@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<b67fb0380711262310v6b6f184eta8c58f368541c431@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BFB6F.7030206@ameritech.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Raymond Ingles wrote:
>> I have a desktop Wifi card (that works with Linux) that I would add to the above
>> Geforce card in exchange for a PCI Hardware T&L card, or a 800MHz+ Slot 1 CPU.
> 
> Slot-1 CPUs were not made faster than about 600-650 MHZ (to my
> knowledge),

Actually Slot-1 CPUs went up to 1000MHz, in both 100MHz and 133MHZ FSB
varieties. I have one, a 1000/100 as my emergency backup computer. And
if you get this post it's because it was sent to you thru the MDLUG
server, a converted dual 866/133 Dell workstation (OptiPlex iirc).

Additionally  a company called Power-Leap <http://www.powerleap.com/>
offers adapters for running a 1400MHz in a Slot-1 board. They worked
great on several machines. In fact my nephews are still using a machine
with one of those. But of the several I bought two (or three I forget)
quit working after only 2 years. And they are kind of pricey, $150 which
includes a 1400MHz Celeron.


> as the Pentium III's i810 chipset or your niece's i815
> chipset are intended for Socket 370 processors.  Your older MB has a
> 440BX chipset or the older 440LX, neither of which support faster
> processors (or SDRAM faster than 66 MHz without overclocking).
> 
> You might check with Silicon Alley Recyclers --
> www.SiliconAlleyRecyclers.us -- to see if they have anything useful
> and cheap...

Last time I checked, about a year ago, Micro-center had servicable
Ge-Force PCi cards for ~$40.

> ~~ Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Nov 27 06:20:36 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:20:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BFD84.3030200@ameritech.net>

Drew wrote:
>      I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of 
> memory. There are two
> slots, each currently containing a 256M module. The motherboard book 
> specification for
> memory reads as follows:
> 
> DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
> DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)

I recommend you go to www.crucial.com and use their "Memory Advisor?
tool". Select your make and model motherboard from the series of drop
downs, and then compare the recommended memory to what you have above.
They typically have good prices too.

>      Thanks;
> 
>    - Drew.

Raymond McLaughlin


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Tue Nov 27 07:00:02 2007
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:00:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474C06C2.7030009@wideopenwest.com>

Drew wrote:
  Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard
> now hopelessly
> out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)
> 

I have received good prices & service from:
http://www.oempcworld.com/

They have tools for finding memory for your motherboard plus lots of 
other info.

BD


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Tue Nov 27 09:32:54 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:32:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <C37194C6.5006A%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Sorry to go on a tangent on a discussion already marked OT, but:

Did someone say something about tasty, delicious pastries?

Greg


On 11/26/07 7:56 PM, "Michael Corral" <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-11-26, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
>>> From: Jason
>>> I have an ATI Radeon 9550 if you want it :D
>> 
>> Sounds lovely, but it'd have to have a PCI (not PCI-Express) bus, and I
>> don't think any were made. According to Wikipedia, my only hope with ATI is
>> a Radeon 7200, 7500, or 9000-9250:
> 
> The plain PCI versions of those were not that common. You may have to
> spend money on one. I see a PCI 7500 on ebay right now for $19 + s/h.
> You may have luck finding a cheap one at MicroCenter in Madison Heights,
> I seem to recall seeing a PCI version of some OEM Radeon 7200 there.
> 
> I have a 7500 I could part with, but it's AGP. :( I do have some PCI
> cards laying around (not ATI), I could try to check if they support
> hardware T&L. If so, I wouldn't want to trade for any computer stuff
> you have (I have too much as it is!). Instead, I'd want some kind of
> pastry from the "fantastic bakery in Livonia, Michigan" that your
> wife runs. :)
> 
> BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
> rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.
> 
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From danno at umich.edu  Tue Nov 27 10:15:23 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:15:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <20071126044740.E5699127C58@starfox.local>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<20071126044740.E5699127C58@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <20071127151523.GC35525@maniac.deathstar.org>

The problem with remotely displaying X applications is that the x11
protocol is just too chatty to be used over anything but a LAN.
Performance really sucks even on short WAN hops.  from my office
to my home, about an 11ms ping RTT, remote X11 is so slow as to be
unusable.

VNC is much, much better; it was designed in part to fix these
limitations.  It makes remote application display usable.

I have not tried NX (the thing Kristoffer points out) but based on
the description he gives and what i found online, it sounds better
yet.

The real king in this space is Citrix's ICA protocol.  Unfortunately
it's proprietary & tightly tied to Windows.

Of course, the real way to "remotely use linux" is via the command
line  :)



On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 11:47:40PM -0500, Robert Meier wrote:
> Kristoffer, Ray,
> 
> > > It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> > > compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation ...
> > There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
> > and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
> > they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.
> 
> ssh -X also sets up a new X-server (default :10.0).
> 
> > > I just wish that it wouldn't create a new X server session.
> > > I'd like to use the current running session,
> > > but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.
> 
> The ability for remote (including VNC) executables to access an X
> server has been part of X since its inception in the 1980s.
> 
> <HINT>
> If you wish to use the same X-server,
> you simply need to inform the executables to address the same X-server.
> This is usually done with the --display option or environment variable
> DISPLAY.
> The address is "<host-or-ip>:<server-no>.<screen-no>" .
> Note that you will have to open up the appropriate firewall channels
> on BOTH hosts.  Typically this is ports 6000-6030(?).
> Use "bash> xhost +<host-as-reported-to-X-server>" to authorize access
> to the server.
> You may need to copy appropriate ~/.Xauthority cookie to the remote host.
> </HINT>
> 
> See X(7) for further details.
> 
> Hopefully helpful,
> -- 
> Robert Meier
> 
>   "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
>    oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
>    will reach to himself."
> 	--Thomas Paine
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 11:14:35 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:14:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590711270814l737703eaqaa53a40b44778d31@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 26, 2007 8:34 AM, Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I'm in my programming class now, and it's back to acting like I'm
> paying attention like I haven't taken the class twice before.

If you've taken the class twice before... well, just a thought but
maybe you *should* be paying attention?

(Don't worry - I was guilty of ignoring the profs in college too - but
I never took a class three times!)

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 15:44:20 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:44:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>

     Using OO Calc on another project, I ended up getting a zero 
result rather abruptly
when scaling down a Slip value. Increasing the precision of this 
parameter, so that the
display read .001 instead of 0, changed the results. So I did a 
little test in a fresh
spreadsheet:

Start at any cell. Enter a column of numbers as follows:

0.001
0.002
0.003
0.004

Do not change the precision of the display. The numbers just entered 
read all zeros, as the default is
two decimal places. (not significant figures!)

Now in another cell, add up all the numbers (=SUM(A1:A4)). They 
should add up to 0.01, which is within
the (default) precision of the cell format. However, the result displayed is 0.

Now change the precision of the cells with the list of numbers to at 
least three decimal places. The cell
with the addition formula then shows the correct value of 0.01.

Evidently, Calc is referring to cells to be used in formulas, not by 
any actual number stored separately,
as is expected from calculators, but rather by *whatever is 
displayed* by virtue of the Font format
setting. At least now I have a better handle on how to write the bug 
report. However, I'm not sure that this
isn't supposed to be a "feature"; and even so, fixing it is likely 
going to require completely rewriting
large sections of code, if the developers did what I think they did. 
Still, it's almost certainly responsible
for the off-the-wall results that I've been getting with the least 
square analysis.

BTW: I also tried this in Microsoft Excel. Excel gave the correct 
answer to within the precision setting
*of the formula cell* regardless of the precision settings of the 
cells being added. So Excel apparently
is at least getting this right.

----

- Drew.



From siersmak at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 14:09:30 2007
From: siersmak at gmail.com (Ken Siersma)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:09:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48fee1380711271109t4494e081sc64442fa43428846@mail.gmail.com>

Doesn't happen in OpenOffice 2.2.0, Ubuntu 7.04.

On Nov 27, 2007 3:44 PM, Drew <drew4096 at gmail.com> wrote:

>     Using OO Calc on another project, I ended up getting a zero
> result rather abruptly
> when scaling down a Slip value. Increasing the precision of this
> parameter, so that the
> display read .001 instead of 0, changed the results. So I did a
> little test in a fresh
> spreadsheet:
>
> Start at any cell. Enter a column of numbers as follows:
>
> 0.001
> 0.002
> 0.003
> 0.004
>
> Do not change the precision of the display. The numbers just entered
> read all zeros, as the default is
> two decimal places. (not significant figures!)
>
> Now in another cell, add up all the numbers (=SUM(A1:A4)). They
> should add up to 0.01, which is within
> the (default) precision of the cell format. However, the result displayed
> is 0.
>
> Now change the precision of the cells with the list of numbers to at
> least three decimal places. The cell
> with the addition formula then shows the correct value of 0.01.
>
> Evidently, Calc is referring to cells to be used in formulas, not by
> any actual number stored separately,
> as is expected from calculators, but rather by *whatever is
> displayed* by virtue of the Font format
> setting. At least now I have a better handle on how to write the bug
> report. However, I'm not sure that this
> isn't supposed to be a "feature"; and even so, fixing it is likely
> going to require completely rewriting
> large sections of code, if the developers did what I think they did.
> Still, it's almost certainly responsible
> for the off-the-wall results that I've been getting with the least
> square analysis.
>
> BTW: I also tried this in Microsoft Excel. Excel gave the correct
> answer to within the precision setting
> *of the formula cell* regardless of the precision settings of the
> cells being added. So Excel apparently
> is at least getting this right.
>
> ----
>
> - Drew.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From tony at bemushosting.com  Tue Nov 27 18:11:42 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:11:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <20071127151523.GC35525@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<20071126044740.E5699127C58@starfox.local>
	<20071127151523.GC35525@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <1196205102.8812.5.camel@bemus-tony>

I agree with the usability of NX.  I use it daily to remote from work to
home.  It worked for me even when I had 768K Internet connection at
home.  It seems faster then the RDP connection I use to use before I
switched to Ubuntu.  Not quite fast enough to do video but it loads the
pictures really good and you don't need to "refresh the screen"  just to
see what you are doing like you would in VNC.
-  
Tony Bemus



On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 10:15 -0500, Dan Pritts wrote:

> The problem with remotely displaying X applications is that the x11
> protocol is just too chatty to be used over anything but a LAN.
> Performance really sucks even on short WAN hops.  from my office
> to my home, about an 11ms ping RTT, remote X11 is so slow as to be
> unusable.
> 
> VNC is much, much better; it was designed in part to fix these
> limitations.  It makes remote application display usable.
> 
> I have not tried NX (the thing Kristoffer points out) but based on
> the description he gives and what i found online, it sounds better
> yet.
> 
> The real king in this space is Citrix's ICA protocol.  Unfortunately
> it's proprietary & tightly tied to Windows.
> 
> Of course, the real way to "remotely use linux" is via the command
> line  :)
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 11:47:40PM -0500, Robert Meier wrote:
> > Kristoffer, Ray,
> > 
> > > > It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> > > > compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation ...
> > > There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
> > > and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
> > > they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.
> > 
> > ssh -X also sets up a new X-server (default :10.0).
> > 
> > > > I just wish that it wouldn't create a new X server session.
> > > > I'd like to use the current running session,
> > > > but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.
> > 
> > The ability for remote (including VNC) executables to access an X
> > server has been part of X since its inception in the 1980s.
> > 
> > <HINT>
> > If you wish to use the same X-server,
> > you simply need to inform the executables to address the same X-server.
> > This is usually done with the --display option or environment variable
> > DISPLAY.
> > The address is "<host-or-ip>:<server-no>.<screen-no>" .
> > Note that you will have to open up the appropriate firewall channels
> > on BOTH hosts.  Typically this is ports 6000-6030(?).
> > Use "bash> xhost +<host-as-reported-to-X-server>" to authorize access
> > to the server.
> > You may need to copy appropriate ~/.Xauthority cookie to the remote host.
> > </HINT>
> > 
> > See X(7) for further details.
> > 
> > Hopefully helpful,
> > -- 
> > Robert Meier
> > 
> >   "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
> >    oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
> >    will reach to himself."
> > 	--Thomas Paine
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> danno
> --
> dan pritts
> danno at umich.edu
> 734-929-9770
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 02:55:36 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:55:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <474AD0E5.50007@gmail.com>
References: <474AD0E5.50007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BCD78.2030601@hotpop.com>

Kristoffer Marshall wrote:
> Was: "A big opportunity for Linux?"
> 
> I've set up VNC manually before, and I have run a free X client in 
> Windows to spit out stuff from my X server over the network through a 
> SSH session (works very fast, forgot what the software was called). By 
> far the easiest solution I have come across is NoMachine 
> (www.nomachine.com). You set it up on the linux box as the server, throw 
> in an IP address or hostname on your Windows client, and it works. The 
> "NX Free Edition" for linux (from what I remember) is a server and 
> client package, which you will install on your linux box. Then you get 
> the Windows client (also free) to connect to the server. The only 
> problems I've had with it were when I was trying to connect to Oakand 
> University's server with the newest client. When I set it up at home 
> though, using the newest version on both computers worked pretty well. 
> It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation and everything 
> should be fine. It's pretty darn fast over the Internet. I just wish 
> that it wouldn't create a new X server session. I'd like to use the 
> current running session, but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.
> 
> Now if only there was a LogMeIn server for linux (www.logmein.com). I 
> love that stuff.

Until some #(%*&^#% figures out how to hijack a logmein.com
packet stream, and use it to create even more spam-bot networks.
UGH!




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 05:29:55 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:29:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711262258i4c35eb50lc8f2c700e9508f09@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380711262258i4c35eb50lc8f2c700e9508f09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BF1A3.4040405@hotpop.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Drew wrote:
>>     I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of
>> memory. There are two slots, each currently containing a 256M module.
>> DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
>> DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)
> 
> The referenced RAM is standard DDR memory.  Though the current
> standard is DDR2 (with DDR3 just becoming available), first-generation
> DDR is still being manufactured and is widely available.  Of course,
> faster is better -- but most DDR available currently is 266 or higher.
> 
> Now is a REALLY good time to buy RAM, as most manufacturers are about
> to cut back their production -- the failure of WinVista in the
> marketplace has lead to a glut of RAM module availability, and NOBODY
> is making any money on memory -- even Samsung, with their massive
> economies of scale, is taking a beating.
> 
> Depending somewhat upon the processor and chipset, it's usually a good
> idea to fill both slots with RAM that has the same capacity and speed
> specifications.

In fact, when building a new computer, I put MY money
into memory (as much as I can get) before a faster
CPU (a system with a moderate-speed CPU with a lot
of memory will out-perform a one with a high-speed
CPU which is constantly swapping memory between
RAM and swap space (i.e. "thrashing")).




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 03:30:22 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:30:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711270029210.5305@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>	<6.2.3.4.0.20071127015550.029811f0@pop.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711270029210.5305@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <474BD59E.3080209@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2007-11-27, Monsieur Drew a ecrit:
>> At 07:56 PM 11/26/07, Michael Corral wrote:
>>> BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
>>> rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.
>>     No need for a video card here; but do you by chance have a PCI serial
>> card?
> 
> No. I've never even seen such a thing.

sounds like something you would plug into a PCI
slot, and then get dozens (or 16's) of serial ports,
for, say, hooking up a bunch of ASCII terminals.

Digiboard (www.digi.com) made them in the 90's.

<http://www.google.com/search?q=pci+port-concentrator+serial&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=mozilla&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial>




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 17:31:31 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:31:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474C9AC3.7080805@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
>      Using OO Calc on another project, I ended up getting a zero 
> result rather abruptly
> when scaling down a Slip value. Increasing the precision of this 
> parameter, so that the
> display read .001 instead of 0, changed the results. So I did a 
> little test in a fresh
> spreadsheet:
> 
> Start at any cell. Enter a column of numbers as follows:
> 
> 0.001
> 0.002
> 0.003
> 0.004
> 
> Do not change the precision of the display. The numbers just entered 
> read all zeros, as the default is
> two decimal places. (not significant figures!)
> 
> Now in another cell, add up all the numbers (=SUM(A1:A4)). They 
> should add up to 0.01, which is within
> the (default) precision of the cell format. However, the result displayed is 0.
> 
> Now change the precision of the cells with the list of numbers to at 
> least three decimal places. The cell
> with the addition formula then shows the correct value of 0.01.
> 
> Evidently, Calc is referring to cells to be used in formulas, not by 
> any actual number stored separately,
> as is expected from calculators, but rather by *whatever is 
> displayed* by virtue of the Font format
> setting. At least now I have a better handle on how to write the bug 
> report. However, I'm not sure that this
> isn't supposed to be a "feature"; and even so, fixing it is likely 
> going to require completely rewriting
> large sections of code, if the developers did what I think they did. 
> Still, it's almost certainly responsible
> for the off-the-wall results that I've been getting with the least 
> square analysis.
> 
> BTW: I also tried this in Microsoft Excel. Excel gave the correct 
> answer to within the precision setting
> *of the formula cell* regardless of the precision settings of the 
> cells being added. So Excel apparently
> is at least getting this right.

Have you sent a bug report to the OpenOffice.org people?




From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Tue Nov 27 20:32:10 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:32:10 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
Message-ID: <2265699.1196213530477.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Does not happen in OpenOffice 2.0.2 (Novell Edition) on SuSE10.0

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Siersma <siersmak at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 27, 2007 2:09 PM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
>
>Doesn't happen in OpenOffice 2.2.0, Ubuntu 7.04.
>
>On Nov 27, 2007 3:44 PM, Drew <drew4096 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>     Using OO Calc on another project, I ended up getting a zero
>> result rather abruptly
>> when scaling down a Slip value. Increasing the precision of this
>> parameter, so that the
>> display read .001 instead of 0, changed the results. So I did a
>> little test in a fresh
>> spreadsheet:
>>
>> Start at any cell. Enter a column of numbers as follows:
>>
>> 0.001
>> 0.002
>> 0.003
>> 0.004
>>
>> Do not change the precision of the display. The numbers just entered
>> read all zeros, as the default is
>> two decimal places. (not significant figures!)
>>
>> Now in another cell, add up all the numbers (=SUM(A1:A4)). They
>> should add up to 0.01, which is within
>> the (default) precision of the cell format. However, the result displayed
>> is 0.
>>
>> Now change the precision of the cells with the list of numbers to at
>> least three decimal places. The cell
>> with the addition formula then shows the correct value of 0.01.
>>
>> Evidently, Calc is referring to cells to be used in formulas, not by
>> any actual number stored separately,
>> as is expected from calculators, but rather by *whatever is
>> displayed* by virtue of the Font format
>> setting. At least now I have a better handle on how to write the bug
>> report. However, I'm not sure that this
>> isn't supposed to be a "feature"; and even so, fixing it is likely
>> going to require completely rewriting
>> large sections of code, if the developers did what I think they did.
>> Still, it's almost certainly responsible
>> for the off-the-wall results that I've been getting with the least
>> square analysis.
>>
>> BTW: I also tried this in Microsoft Excel. Excel gave the correct
>> answer to within the precision setting
>> *of the formula cell* regardless of the precision settings of the
>> cells being added. So Excel apparently
>> is at least getting this right.
>>
>> ----
>>
>> - Drew.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 21:11:51 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:11:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <474C9AC3.7080805@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.474cce67.3eebca02.22cc@zaurus>

* Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote on 
> Have you sent a bug report to the OpenOffice.org people?
>

Not yet, though I have taken out the login ID for the purpose. Someone else on this list reports that it does not happen for OO 2.2.0 on the Ubuntu 7 distro. I
shall have to find out the version of my OO Suite when I get home, to see if it's an earlier version.

----

- Drew.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 02:58:09 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:58:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <474BCE11.9000705@hotpop.com>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Kristoffer Marshall
> 
>> It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
>> compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation and everything 
>> should be fine. It's pretty darn fast over the Internet. I just wish 
>> that it wouldn't create a new X server session. I'd like to use the 
>> current running session, but I haven't seen anything like 
>> that for linux.
> 
>  There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
> and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
> they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.
> 
>  Even works for Windows, given an X server running on Windows, like xming
> or Cygwin's X server.


And HIGHLY recommended for logins going over unsecured
networks, by the way.




From drew4096 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 00:56:10 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:56:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20071128005446.029aaac0@pop.gmail.com>

     It turns out I have Open Office 2.0 Beta, which might explain it.
The math works properly in plain Open Office 2.0 on my kanotix image,
and also in Open Office 1.1, surprisingly. The developers must have
decided to try something new, then immediately changed their minds
when they saw the results.

----

- Drew.



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 08:59:19 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:59:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <474C06C2.7030009@wideopenwest.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
	<474C06C2.7030009@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711280559v6c4df062ua6e5a3923d50bfc7@mail.gmail.com>

Bob Dion wrote:
> Drew wrote:
>   Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard
> > now hopelessly
> > out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)
> >
>
> I have received good prices & service from:
> http://www.oempcworld.com/
>
> They have tools for finding memory for your motherboard plus lots of
> other info.

All this is overthinking the situation -- I've built PCs for over 20
years and I know these things.  TO REPEAT: what Drew need is
straight-line STANDARD PC2100/266 MHz DDR memory.  A good choice is
Micro Center -- they are local and have good prices.

~~ Mikey


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 28 10:14:46 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:14:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711280559v6c4df062ua6e5a3923d50bfc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Michael Rudas
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:59 AM
> To: starline at wideopenwest.com; MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Memory modules
> 
> Bob Dion wrote:
> > Drew wrote:
> >   Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard
> > > now hopelessly
> > > out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)
> > >
> >
> > I have received good prices & service from:
> > http://www.oempcworld.com/
> >
> > They have tools for finding memory for your motherboard 
> plus lots of 
> > other info.
> 
> All this is overthinking the situation -- I've built PCs for 
> over 20 years and I know these things.  TO REPEAT: what Drew 
> need is straight-line STANDARD PC2100/266 MHz DDR memory.  A 
> good choice is Micro Center -- they are local and have good prices.
> 
> ~~ Mikey

	Microcenter is not "local", they just have a local retail center.

	A local place would be EMC Computers on Rochester Road in Troy, just
North of Big Beaver, next door to Talking Book World. It's a "mom&pop" shop
that is vey local.

	-Rob



From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 28 13:27:50 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:27:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <474DB326.4020602@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> 	Microcenter is not "local", they just have a local retail center.
>
> 	A local place would be EMC Computers on Rochester Road in Troy, just
> North of Big Beaver, next door to Talking Book World. It's a "mom&pop" shop
> that is vey local.
>   

Not "local" to me.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tony at bemushosting.com  Wed Nov 28 13:52:25 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:52:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <474DB326.4020602@comcast.net>
References: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>
	<474DB326.4020602@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1196275945.15252.2.camel@bemus-tony>

Discount Computers in Redford on Telegraph road is a good "Local" store
that is not far from where Drew lives.  Just straight up Telegraph road
(North from Dearborn/Taylor) on the West side before you get to I-69.

-  
Tony Bemus



On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 13:27 -0500, Garry Stahl wrote:

> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > 	Microcenter is not "local", they just have a local retail center.
> >
> > 	A local place would be EMC Computers on Rochester Road in Troy, just
> > North of Big Beaver, next door to Talking Book World. It's a "mom&pop" shop
> > that is vey local.
> >   
> 
> Not "local" to me.
> 


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 28 14:59:29 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:59:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <1196275945.15252.2.camel@bemus-tony>
References: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>	<474DB326.4020602@comcast.net>
	<1196275945.15252.2.camel@bemus-tony>
Message-ID: <474DC8A1.8070602@comcast.net>

Tony Bemus wrote:
> Discount Computers in Redford on Telegraph road is a good "Local" store
> that is not far from where Drew lives.  Just straight up Telegraph road
> (North from Dearborn/Taylor) on the West side before you get to I-69.
>
>   

Prices are not shoddy either.  I use DCI frequently for "bits". 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 09:17:26 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:17:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071126144513.674581412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <20071129142421.03DBB1412E@impelind.com>


	Nobody got anything on this?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Robert Adkins
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:38 AM
> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
> Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
> 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically 
> ignoring the WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 
> laptop. It has a "Dell Truemobile 1300"
> wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> 
> 	I went to the NDISwrapper site, read through the wiki a 
> bit and found an excellent listing of what cards/drivers are 
> supposed to work.
> (Which also included links to those drivers.)
> 
> 	The removal of the non-working opensource bcm4xx driver 
> and installation of the ndiswrapper with Windows driver went 
> smoothly. I fired up kwifi and voila! I was able to show a 
> signal, scan and see my WPA configured wifi router and... Nothin..
> 
> 	I entered my passkey as the kwifi did correctly 
> identify the necessary configuration. Unfortunately, that 
> didn't work. The wpa_supplicant fired up, still nothing worked.
> 
> 	As a test, I temporarily set the wifi router into an 
> open, no authentication needed setup and I was able to 
> connect without any problem.
> 
> 	Right now, I am assuming that there is some issue with 
> the Windows driver that isn't allowing the wpa_supplicant to 
> properly do its job. It may also be that the wifi router 
> (Linksys WRT54G) is setup in a way that the driver I am using 
> just can't grok and thus needs to be configured using a 
> different WPA setup.
> 
> 	Anyone in a similar situation and have a few pointers?
> 
> 	Really, I have no problem with plugging the laptop into 
> the wall jacks at home. As it stands, I should be able to 
> connect fine to the free wifi setups at coffee shops and 
> other locations. I would really enjoy being able to use my 
> wifi anywhere in the house.
> 
> 	Thanks for any assistance,	
> 	
> 	Rob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 29 09:43:32 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:43:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
Message-ID: <739466.55901.qm@web37914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a linksys wifi card on my Compaq and it still does not work.

David

----- Original Message ----
From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:17:26 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame



    Nobody got anything on this?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Robert Adkins
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:38 AM
> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
> Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
>     So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically 
> ignoring the WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 
> laptop. It has a "Dell Truemobile 1300"
> wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> 
>     I went to the NDISwrapper site, read through the wiki a 
> bit and found an excellent listing of what cards/drivers are 
> supposed to work.
> (Which also included links to those drivers.)
> 
>     The removal of the non-working opensource bcm4xx driver 
> and installation of the ndiswrapper with Windows driver went 
> smoothly. I fired up kwifi and voila! I was able to show a 
> signal, scan and see my WPA configured wifi router and... Nothin..
> 
>     I entered my passkey as the kwifi did correctly 
> identify the necessary configuration. Unfortunately, that 
> didn't work. The wpa_supplicant fired up, still nothing worked.
> 
>     As a test, I temporarily set the wifi router into an 
> open, no authentication needed setup and I was able to 
> connect without any problem.
> 
>     Right now, I am assuming that there is some issue with 
> the Windows driver that isn't allowing the wpa_supplicant to 
> properly do its job. It may also be that the wifi router 
> (Linksys WRT54G) is setup in a way that the driver I am using 
> just can't grok and thus needs to be configured using a 
> different WPA setup.
> 
>     Anyone in a similar situation and have a few pointers?
> 
>     Really, I have no problem with plugging the laptop into 
> the wall jacks at home. As it stands, I should be able to 
> connect fine to the free wifi setups at coffee shops and 
> other locations. I would really enjoy being able to use my 
> wifi anywhere in the house.
> 
>     Thanks for any assistance,    
>     
>     Rob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov 29 09:50:46 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:50:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129142421.03DBB1412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> > From: Robert Adkins

> > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically 
> > ignoring the WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 
> > laptop. It has a "Dell Truemobile 1300"
> > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.

> 	Nobody got anything on this?

 Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking hardware that's supported
under Linux. A couple of Atheros-based cards (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol
compact-flash card with a PCMCIA adapter. Haven't messed with Broadcom at all, nor
with WPA (since my Symbol card is 802.11b and can't handle WPA).

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317

 "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills
 the first woman she meets and then teams up with three
 complete strangers to kill again." - TV listing for the
    Wizard of Oz in the Marin Independent Journal
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 09:54:42 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:54:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071129150137.2D44C1412E@impelind.com>

> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically ignoring the 
> > > WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It has a "Dell 
> > > Truemobile 1300"
> > > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> 
> > 	Nobody got anything on this?
> 
>  Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking 
> hardware that's supported under Linux. A couple of 
> Atheros-based cards (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol 
> compact-flash card with a PCMCIA adapter. Haven't messed with 
> Broadcom at all, nor with WPA (since my Symbol card is 
> 802.11b and can't handle WPA).
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317
> 

	I hear you.

	At the time of buying that laptop, my wife's employer was paying a
decent portion of the tab to order through Dell and they provided a limited
set of options (a Low-end, Midrange and High-End system), with few
customizable elements. I ended up with a really slick (at the time) machine
for far less than it would have cost otherwise. 

	I also wasn't so concerned with the WiFi card under Linux, since so
few places had "Free WiFi" back then and I had no issues with plugging it
into my home network.

	Oh well, maybe I need to pickup a separate WiFi card and go to town
configuring that.

	Thanks,
	Rob



From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Thu Nov 29 14:44:33 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:44:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
Message-ID: <4554836.1196365474275.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Rob,

I have a DELL laptop (D820 circa 2006)with wireless using boroadcom chip and it has been working fine through ndiswrapper but you may have a newer version.

Raj

-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
>Sent: Nov 29, 2007 9:54 AM
>To: 'MDLUG's Main discussion list' <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
>
>> 
>> > From: Robert Adkins
>> 
>> > > From: Robert Adkins
>> 
>> > > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically ignoring the 
>> > > WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It has a "Dell 
>> > > Truemobile 1300"
>> > > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
>> 
>> > 	Nobody got anything on this?
>> 
>>  Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking 
>> hardware that's supported under Linux. A couple of 
>> Atheros-based cards (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol 
>> compact-flash card with a PCMCIA adapter. Haven't messed with 
>> Broadcom at all, nor with WPA (since my Symbol card is 
>> 802.11b and can't handle WPA).
>> 
>>  Sincerely,
>> 
>>  Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317
>> 
>
>	I hear you.
>
>	At the time of buying that laptop, my wife's employer was paying a
>decent portion of the tab to order through Dell and they provided a limited
>set of options (a Low-end, Midrange and High-End system), with few
>customizable elements. I ended up with a really slick (at the time) machine
>for far less than it would have cost otherwise. 
>
>	I also wasn't so concerned with the WiFi card under Linux, since so
>few places had "Free WiFi" back then and I had no issues with plugging it
>into my home network.
>
>	Oh well, maybe I need to pickup a separate WiFi card and go to town
>configuring that.
>
>	Thanks,
>	Rob
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 14:52:24 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:52:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <4554836.1196365474275.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20071129195919.B6B0D140DF@impelind.com>

Mine is a little over 4 years old now.

It's an Inspiron 8500

The WiFi is "working", it just doesn't appear to be properly supporting WPA
authentication.

Router set to WPA-Personal, (Tried both TKIP and AES settings) nothing.

Router set to WPA2-Personal, (Same settings as above) nothing.

Router set Wide Open, no authentication, BAM! Kwifi snatches up an IP
Address and away we go.

I would rather not leave myself wide open.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of R. Kannan
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 2:45 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
> Rob,
> 
> I have a DELL laptop (D820 circa 2006)with wireless using 
> boroadcom chip and it has been working fine through 
> ndiswrapper but you may have a newer version.
> 
> Raj
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
> >Sent: Nov 29, 2007 9:54 AM
> >To: 'MDLUG's Main discussion list' <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> >
> >> 
> >> > From: Robert Adkins
> >> 
> >> > > From: Robert Adkins
> >> 
> >> > > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of 
> basically ignoring the 
> >> > > WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It 
> has a "Dell 
> >> > > Truemobile 1300"
> >> > > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> >> 
> >> > 	Nobody got anything on this?
> >> 
> >>  Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking hardware 
> >> that's supported under Linux. A couple of Atheros-based cards 
> >> (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol compact-flash card with a PCMCIA 
> >> adapter. Haven't messed with Broadcom at all, nor with WPA 
> (since my 
> >> Symbol card is 802.11b and can't handle WPA).
> >> 
> >>  Sincerely,
> >> 
> >>  Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317
> >> 
> >
> >	I hear you.
> >
> >	At the time of buying that laptop, my wife's employer 
> was paying a 
> >decent portion of the tab to order through Dell and they provided a 
> >limited set of options (a Low-end, Midrange and High-End 
> system), with 
> >few customizable elements. I ended up with a really slick 
> (at the time) 
> >machine for far less than it would have cost otherwise.
> >
> >	I also wasn't so concerned with the WiFi card under 
> Linux, since so 
> >few places had "Free WiFi" back then and I had no issues 
> with plugging 
> >it into my home network.
> >
> >	Oh well, maybe I need to pickup a separate WiFi card 
> and go to town 
> >configuring that.
> >
> >	Thanks,
> >	Rob
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >mdlug mailing list
> >mdlug at mdlug.org
> >http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 15:05:22 2007
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:05:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <4554836.1196365474275.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4554836.1196365474275.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1196366722.3321.9.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

Broadcom won't open their drivers up so we are left to the sometimes
funkiness of ndiswrapper, which I never got to work with my Broadcom
1300 on a Inspiron 1000. FWIW anyone looking at the M1700 (XPS) series
of Dell's the Intel3945 works quite well.

-Jason

On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 14:44 -0500, R. Kannan wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> I have a DELL laptop (D820 circa 2006)with wireless using boroadcom chip and it has been working fine through ndiswrapper but you may have a newer version.
> 
> Raj
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
> >Sent: Nov 29, 2007 9:54 AM
> >To: 'MDLUG's Main discussion list' <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> >
> >> 
> >> > From: Robert Adkins
> >> 
> >> > > From: Robert Adkins
> >> 
> >> > > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically ignoring the 
> >> > > WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It has a "Dell 
> >> > > Truemobile 1300"
> >> > > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> >> 
> >> > 	Nobody got anything on this?
> >> 
> >>  Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking 
> >> hardware that's supported under Linux. A couple of 
> >> Atheros-based cards (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol 
> >> compact-flash card with a PCMCIA adapter. Haven't messed with 
> >> Broadcom at all, nor with WPA (since my Symbol card is 
> >> 802.11b and can't handle WPA).
> >> 
> >>  Sincerely,
> >> 
> >>  Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317
> >> 
> >
> >	I hear you.
> >
> >	At the time of buying that laptop, my wife's employer was paying a
> >decent portion of the tab to order through Dell and they provided a limited
> >set of options (a Low-end, Midrange and High-End system), with few
> >customizable elements. I ended up with a really slick (at the time) machine
> >for far less than it would have cost otherwise. 
> >
> >	I also wasn't so concerned with the WiFi card under Linux, since so
> >few places had "Free WiFi" back then and I had no issues with plugging it
> >into my home network.
> >
> >	Oh well, maybe I need to pickup a separate WiFi card and go to town
> >configuring that.
> >
> >	Thanks,
> >	Rob
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >mdlug mailing list
> >mdlug at mdlug.org
> >http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
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From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov 29 15:56:33 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:56:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129195919.B6B0D140DF@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> The WiFi is "working", it just doesn't appear to be properly 
> supporting WPA authentication... I would rather not leave myself wide open.

 Well, there's WEP, which isn't secure but does serve to discourage casual
leechers. It won't stop (or even seriously slow down) a specific attack (it's
been called "'as useful as a chocolate teapot' in sensitive environments")
but for example, I can see three other unsecured WAPs from my bedroom. Unless
someone was specifically after me, they'd just go after the other low-hanging
fruit. It's not "wide open"; more like "the door's closed but not locked".

 However, I've also placed my WAP low in my basement. The signal isn't detectable
(at least, with the hardware I have) from the street, but I have no trouble
hooking up anywhere in my house with reasonable speed.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                               (313) 227-2317

    How to fix your Windows Application when it doesn't work:
     (1) Stop and start the program
      (2) Log in and log out again
       (3) Reboot the machine
        (4) Reinstall the application again
         (5) Reinstall the operating system
          (6) Dance naked around the machine, waving a rubber chicken
           (7) "Take your machine back for servicing"
                           - Chris Wedgwood
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 16:04:11 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:04:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071129211106.4A2D414140@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Ingles, Raymond
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:57 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > The WiFi is "working", it just doesn't appear to be properly 
> > supporting WPA authentication... I would rather not leave 
> myself wide open.
> 
>  Well, there's WEP, which isn't secure but does serve to 
> discourage casual leechers. It won't stop (or even seriously 
> slow down) a specific attack (it's been called "'as useful as 
> a chocolate teapot' in sensitive environments") but for 
> example, I can see three other unsecured WAPs from my 
> bedroom. Unless someone was specifically after me, they'd 
> just go after the other low-hanging fruit. It's not "wide 
> open"; more like "the door's closed but not locked".
> 

	Yeah, I know about WEP. I don't want to use that, as it certainly is
as you say it is.

>  However, I've also placed my WAP low in my basement. The 
> signal isn't detectable (at least, with the hardware I have) 
> from the street, but I have no trouble hooking up anywhere in 
> my house with reasonable speed.
> 

	My house bizarely acts similar to a Faraday cage. I am unable to
receive a signal for the Oakland County Wireless, that's freely available in
my neighborhood, from outside and I have been unable to get a signal from my
WAP while outside of my house.

	This was tested with my cell phone, which has WiFi capability and
not a very good antenae at that. I did, once, see the Oakland County WiFi
popup while I was in the basement on the laptop, the signal was weak and
didn't last for long.

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov 29 16:09:27 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:09:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129211106.4A2D414140@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Yeah, I know about WEP. I don't want to use that, as it 
> certainly is as you say it is.

 One mitigating factor is that, very shortly, my new firewall will be up,
running IPCop. That allows you to specify a special, segregated wireless
branch of the network that isn't allowed to get to the wired portion.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                (313) 227-2317

  "...it is largely unnecessary to trade civil liberties for security...
   the best security measures -- reinforcing the airplane cockpit door,
   putting barricades and guards around important buildings, improving
  authentication for telephone and Internet banking -- have no effect on
     civil liberties. Broad surveillance is a mark of bad security."
                           - Bruce Schneier
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 17:25:54 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:25:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129142421.03DBB1412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071126144513.674581412E@impelind.com>
	<20071129142421.03DBB1412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711291425v3edc495fhb31c81d364872a61@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 29, 2007 9:17 AM, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>
>         Nobody got anything on this?

New 1.50 version of NDISwrapper:
http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/joomla/

What distro?  Ubuntu Gutsy bug:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/124159

Ubuntu HOWTO:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=405990


From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Nov 29 17:35:39 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:35:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129211106.4A2D414140@impelind.com>
References: <20071129211106.4A2D414140@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <474F3EBB.3080303@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> My house bizarely acts similar to a Faraday cage.
>   

How old is your house?  Houses built in the 50s and 60s used something
called "diamond lath" to hold the plaster, in which case your house DOES
have a Faraday cage of steel mesh in the walls.  It would be interrupted
by windows or doors, but even the interior walls will have it. but the
basement will not.

If you really want that signal you will need an antenna on the house and
a repeater inside.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 17:33:57 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:33:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <474F3EBB.3080303@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20071129224052.8B359140DF@impelind.com>



> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > My house bizarely acts similar to a Faraday cage.
> >   
> 
> How old is your house?  Houses built in the 50s and 60s used 
> something called "diamond lath" to hold the plaster, in which 
> case your house DOES have a Faraday cage of steel mesh in the 
> walls.  It would be interrupted by windows or doors, but even 
> the interior walls will have it. but the basement will not.
> 

	That explains it. The house was built in 1951.


> If you really want that signal you will need an antenna on 
> the house and a repeater inside.
> 

	I'll have to look into that, if I need outside access to my network.

	Thanks for that info Gary.


	-Rob



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 17:40:21 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:40:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711291425v3edc495fhb31c81d364872a61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>

> >
> >         Nobody got anything on this?
> 
> New 1.50 version of NDISwrapper:
> http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/joomla/
> 
> What distro?  Ubuntu Gutsy bug:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/
> +bug/124159
> 

	I use OpenSuSe 10.3. 

	Ubuntu is just the latest Linux community darling. Since I started
using SuSe, I've always found it to be much more complete, especially in
regards to laptop support.

	I also enjoy the fact that when you update the kernel, the OpenSuSe
Yast2 system is smart enough to update all other software that it installed
which has to have kernel specific modules for it. For example, the Nvidia
drivers, when you update the Kernel, it actually rebuilds the Nvidia Kernel
interface at the same time so when you reboot, you are presented with a GUI
again. 

	I've heard that Ubuntu lacks that. A guy in a class I am taking
asked me why his X Windows was flashing at him and continually crashing. I
remembered, from seeing that often enough, that he must have been using the
Nvidia driver and recently updated his Kernel. He said yes on both counts.
So, I explained to him how to manually fix it.

	Might already be using the latest NDIS, although I am beginning to
suspect that the version of the wireless drivers I am using could be out of
date and thus not capable of handling the WPA calls that the wpa_supplicant
is asking it to handle.

	-Rob



From newmaniese at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 08:20:50 2007
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael Newman)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:20:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>
References: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <DB50A7F3-51ED-4CB6-8EC5-4E92170562C3@gmail.com>

Why not leave the network open and filter MAC addresses. That would be  
more secure than wpa2 and should allow you to connect freely since the  
protection is all in the router. With the linksys router it is pretty  
basic to set up. Also if you leave things open make sure you change  
the ipaddress and password on the local router. In college people  
would change ssids and passwords just for fun on whatever routers were  
found open.

On Nov 29, 2007, at 5:40 PM, "Robert Adkins" <radkins at impelind.com>  
wrote:

>>>
>>>        Nobody got anything on this?
>>
>> New 1.50 version of NDISwrapper:
>> http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/joomla/
>>
>> What distro?  Ubuntu Gutsy bug:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/
>> +bug/124159
>>
>
>    I use OpenSuSe 10.3.
>
>    Ubuntu is just the latest Linux community darling. Since I started
> using SuSe, I've always found it to be much more complete,  
> especially in
> regards to laptop support.
>
>    I also enjoy the fact that when you update the kernel, the OpenSuSe
> Yast2 system is smart enough to update all other software that it  
> installed
> which has to have kernel specific modules for it. For example, the  
> Nvidia
> drivers, when you update the Kernel, it actually rebuilds the Nvidia  
> Kernel
> interface at the same time so when you reboot, you are presented  
> with a GUI
> again.
>
>    I've heard that Ubuntu lacks that. A guy in a class I am taking
> asked me why his X Windows was flashing at him and continually  
> crashing. I
> remembered, from seeing that often enough, that he must have been  
> using the
> Nvidia driver and recently updated his Kernel. He said yes on both  
> counts.
> So, I explained to him how to manually fix it.
>
>    Might already be using the latest NDIS, although I am beginning to
> suspect that the version of the wireless drivers I am using could be  
> out of
> date and thus not capable of handling the WPA calls that the  
> wpa_supplicant
> is asking it to handle.
>
>    -Rob
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Nov 30 08:21:20 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:21:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <DB50A7F3-51ED-4CB6-8EC5-4E92170562C3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071130132816.2E3861412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Michael Newman
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:21 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
> Why not leave the network open and filter MAC addresses. That 
> would be more secure than wpa2 and should allow you to 
> connect freely since the protection is all in the router. 
> With the linksys router it is pretty basic to set up. Also if 
> you leave things open make sure you change the ipaddress and 
> password on the local router. In college people would change 
> ssids and passwords just for fun on whatever routers were found open.
> 

	I definitely changed the router password and original IP Address it
used.

	I'll look into MAC Address filtering. It would be nice to have it
cleanly setup with support for WPA or WPA2 as well though.

	I downloaded what might be a newer Windows driver yesterday evening
and hope to have some time to fiddle with it tonight. It's possible that
this could fix the problem.

	-Rob



From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 08:30:05 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:30:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711270814l737703eaqaa53a40b44778d31@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590711270814l737703eaqaa53a40b44778d31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4750105D.1040002@gmail.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Nov 26, 2007 8:34 AM, Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Well, I'm in my programming class now, and it's back to acting like I'm
>> paying attention like I haven't taken the class twice before.
>>     
>
> If you've taken the class twice before... well, just a thought but
> maybe you *should* be paying attention?
>
> (Don't worry - I was guilty of ignoring the profs in college too - but
> I never took a class three times!)
>   
No, I got A's in the last two classes. The only problem is that one was 
in highschool and the other just didn't transfer. I find this a shame 
since my class in highschool was a lot more advanced. The semester is 
almost over and we were just introduced to arrays and creating your own 
classes. My teacher is afraid of using a 0 element. She adds 1 to all of 
her code to start everything at 1.

Teacher: "Will this code run correctly?"
Me: "No."
Teacher: "Why not?"
Me: "Because there's a green squiggly underlining that variable 
declaration."
Teacher: "Oh, I was hoping no one would see that."

I can't complain much about this class though. It keeps my GPA up and 
it's one of the few computer classes I'm actually allowed to take even 
though I'm going for my IT degree. I don't know why, but I have a 
feeling that my art history class is going to help me much unless I'm 
going to work in an art museum as a tour guide.


From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 08:34:49 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:34:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071128005446.029aaac0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071128005446.029aaac0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47501179.7050308@gmail.com>

That's good. I was going to add that it doesn't happen on my Apple IIe 
either, although the colors seem to be a bit skewed.

Drew wrote:
>      It turns out I have Open Office 2.0 Beta, which might explain it.
> The math works properly in plain Open Office 2.0 on my kanotix image,
> and also in Open Office 1.1, surprisingly. The developers must have
> decided to try something new, then immediately changed their minds
> when they saw the results.
>
> ----
>
> - Drew.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>   



From painbank at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 09:55:38 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:55:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <4750105D.1040002@gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590711270814l737703eaqaa53a40b44778d31@mail.gmail.com>
	<4750105D.1040002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711300655y443b390dme2e695cc60bf6c26@mail.gmail.com>

well, since this discussion is titled about Darwining, and your talking
about how useless an Art History class might be in the future, you really
should consider that *if* you ever got into a job using your IT programming
skills that worked with a software package, oh that say made a game... then
perhaps that art history class might come in more use than you think...

just a thought.  Do not discount general eduction, because let us face the
facts shall we, any monkey can code (for the most part), but not every
monkey can paint a picaso with his code.

Rich Elswick

On Nov 30, 2007 8:30 AM, Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> > On Nov 26, 2007 8:34 AM, Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Well, I'm in my programming class now, and it's back to acting like I'm
> >> paying attention like I haven't taken the class twice before.
> >>
> >
> > If you've taken the class twice before... well, just a thought but
> > maybe you *should* be paying attention?
> >
> > (Don't worry - I was guilty of ignoring the profs in college too - but
> > I never took a class three times!)
> >
> No, I got A's in the last two classes. The only problem is that one was
> in highschool and the other just didn't transfer. I find this a shame
> since my class in highschool was a lot more advanced. The semester is
> almost over and we were just introduced to arrays and creating your own
> classes. My teacher is afraid of using a 0 element. She adds 1 to all of
> her code to start everything at 1.
>
> Teacher: "Will this code run correctly?"
> Me: "No."
> Teacher: "Why not?"
> Me: "Because there's a green squiggly underlining that variable
> declaration."
> Teacher: "Oh, I was hoping no one would see that."
>
> I can't complain much about this class though. It keeps my GPA up and
> it's one of the few computer classes I'm actually allowed to take even
> though I'm going for my IT degree. I don't know why, but I have a
> feeling that my art history class is going to help me much unless I'm
> going to work in an art museum as a tour guide.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img src="
http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0" alt="The Pain Bank
- SCA and WMA"/></a>


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov 30 10:20:26 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:20:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <cafacd830711300655y443b390dme2e695cc60bf6c26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACDA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Rich Elswick

> Do not discount general eduction

 When I got my undergraduate degree, my graduation present was the *best ever*. My
parents sprung for a whole extra term where I could take whatever class I wanted.

 I had a great time. I took an anthropology course, a class on making holograms,
a course on literary fantasy (my one regret was that the science-fiction version
wasn't available that semester), the 'intro to women's studies' class (as a white
male middle-class heterosexual engineer, in the early 1990's... though for the
most part I was treated as a human being), and an 'intro to modern dance' class,
just because it was something I would ordinarily never, ever do.

 One of my favorite things to do when I was in college was, of an afternoon where
I had a long break between classes, go pick a random class and sit in. (I'd choose
a large auditorium so as not to disrupt things.) It was almost never boring, and
even in the boring ones I'd learn *something* I hadn't known I didn't know.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                               (313) 227-2317

 "I remember saying [...] that people would spend more money on software
 than on hardware. We certainly haven't passed that milestone by quite a
   margin. But particularly as software as a service becomes a reality
    [that might change]." -- Bill Gates, Newsweek, September 18th 2000
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov 30 10:45:28 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:45:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACDB@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> when you update the Kernel, it actually rebuilds the Nvidia Kernel
> interface at the same time so when you reboot, you are 
> presented with a GUI again. 
> 
> 	I've heard that Ubuntu lacks that.

 I dunno what version of Ubuntu he's running, but aside from one incident about
a year and a half back - an acknowledged bug that hasn't been repeated - I've
never run into that, and I've administered Ubuntu machines with three different
Nvidia chipsets.

 Ubuntu is not perfect - nothing is - but its acclaim is well-deserved for the
purposes (general desktop use) it's intended for.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "Demand at least as much veracity from your president as you
               would a filmmaker." - pohl
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Thu Nov 29 08:06:59 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:06:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] It's about time
Message-ID: <7890.216.144.215.245.1196341619.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

I remember a year ago wondering why someone doesn't do something
about the bot nets.  It's about time.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3927818

c




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 12:38:59 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:38:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACDA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <cafacd830711300655y443b390dme2e695cc60bf6c26@mail.gmail.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACDA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711300938l4a6c1b1dl102d3fec52fd4c20@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 30, 2007 10:20 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  When I got my undergraduate degree, my graduation present was the *best ever*. My
> parents sprung for a whole extra term where I could take whatever class I wanted.

Because I was too late in registering to apply for a grant I had, I
ended up taking another year of school to make use of it.  I was
mostly working on an electronics degree but the third year I took
astronomy (which covered a lot about the electromagnetic spectrum),
residential electrical wiring, industrial motor control, and
programmable controllers.  The latter was fun to use with holiday
lights for light shows at the college dances.  I also worked part-time
in the data processing department setting up PCs and terminals.


From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 30 15:25:40 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:25:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] It's about time
References: <7890.216.144.215.245.1196341619.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <006d01c8338f$2d263e00$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

However, I suspect that for every person prosecuted, there are 10 new ones 
just waiting to take their place.  :-(

-Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl T. Miller" <millerc at cantonpl.org>
To: <millerc at cantonpl.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:06 AM
Subject: [mdlug] It's about time


>I remember a year ago wondering why someone doesn't do something
> about the bot nets.  It's about time.
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3927818
>
> c
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
> 11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>
> 



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 30 17:42:53 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:42:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: nis/make broken (Solaris)
Message-ID: <867705.88538.qm@web81809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello, I am trying to add a user 'foo' to a group in the file /etc/nis/group.   I can add her, and the /var/yp/make seems to work (not sure though), but when I do an id -a on foo, it doesn't show that they were added to the group.    ypcat group shows that the group has been added correctly to the group file.   "groups foo" *does* show the user belongs to the group that I want her in.  The user reports that she can't access the folders she was trying to get to.   I tested it on my own ID and I thought it was working, but I didn't get a chance to check on the user.  But the Makefile for nis has been acting strange for a while.   Is it possible to delete the results of make and re-make the files?    If so, how do I do that?    make says things are up-to-date.     Should I back up the original files first?    This is Solaris 8.    

Is there a difference between where 'id' and 'groups' look to see what groups someone is in?     Thanks, Dean


From brian at dangerbacon.com  Fri Nov 30 19:14:03 2007
From: brian at dangerbacon.com (Brian)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:14:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <DB50A7F3-51ED-4CB6-8EC5-4E92170562C3@gmail.com>
References: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>
	<DB50A7F3-51ED-4CB6-8EC5-4E92170562C3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711301914.33241.brian@dangerbacon.com>

On Friday 30 November 2007 08:20:50 am Michael Newman wrote:
> Why not leave the network open and filter MAC addresses. That would be
> more secure than wpa2 and should allow you to connect freely since the
> protection is all in the router. With the linksys router it is pretty
> basic to set up. Also if you leave things open make sure you change
> the ipaddress and password on the local router. In college people
> would change ssids and passwords just for fun on whatever routers were
> found open.
>

Without WPA or some form of encryption this method doesn't really buy you 
much.  You're still vulnerable to sniffing based attacks.  This means that 
people could grab your mac address for spoofing with ifconfig as well as your 
routers administrative password ;)

-- 
Brian
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From drew4096 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 21:00:01 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:00:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <47501179.7050308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.4750c021.328a2b63.2aa0@zaurus>

* Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com> wrote on 14:34:49:
> That's good. I was going to add that it doesn't happen on my Apple IIe 
> either, although the colors seem to be a bit skewed.
> 

    Update: If I start up OO 2.0.0 Calc and load a spreadsheet created with the Beta version, the math error still occurs. Only in a fresh spreadsheet or one prevoiusly created with the NON-Beta version does the problem go away.

----

- Drew.



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 22:02:24 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:02:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fwd: AACS Meeting Notice - December 5,
	2007 - Ubuntu's new Ape: the "Gutsy Gibbon"
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711301902p3a8b653v634d566cbde4e843@mail.gmail.com>

I thought that this might be of interest to some...  I might try to
make it, myself -- if I can afford the gas. :-()

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ravindranath Desai <rdesai at chartermi.net>
Date: Nov 30, 2007 6:16 PM
Subject: AACS Meeting Notice - December 5, 2007 - Ubuntu's new Ape:
the "Gutsy Gibbon"

      AACS meetings are free and open to the public.
      Supporting membership is $20 per year.

      Wednesday, Dec 5, 2007
       AACS Meeting Time: 6:00 PM to (generally) 8:00 PM
       Location: SRT Solutions (above the Linux box)
	206 S. Fifth Avenue, Suite 200, Ann Arbor, MI
~~~

Abstract:

Linux is making great strides onto the desktop operating system market
with advancements that make it easier than ever to switch from Windows
or Mac.  In my speech, I'll be illustrating some of the new features
Ubuntu Linux has incorporated in its latest release, 7.10 "Gutsy
Gibbon".  Some of these features include a revamped graphical
installer and LiveCD, the first GUI configuration tools for some parts
of the system, as well as a basic 3d accelerated desktop environment.
Furthermore, I will demonstrate Compiz Fusion, an open-source, 3D
window manager that provides eye candy for the Linux user that rivals
what is found on Mac's OS X. I will also briefly demonstrate some open
source alternatives that can be used as replacements for some commonly
used Windows or Mac media utilities and productivity tools. Lastly,
I'll dive a little under the hood of the latest stable Linux kernel,
2.6.23, to talk about some of the improvements and alterations made to
the heart of the linux operating systems, like the new Completely Fair
Process Scheduler that allocates processor time more effectively for
pressing, real-time computations, as well as the burgeoning number of
device drivers that are included in a standard kernel.
~~~

About the speaker:

Kevin DuBois is currently an undergraduate computer engineering
student at the university of michigan. He works part time for a local
Ann Arbor streaming television startup called Zattoo.  Kevin has been
an advocate and user of open source for two or three years now, since
high school.  Kevin is a member of the Michigan Ubuntu Loco team, and
is currently focusing on aiding the developers of a 3D window manager
called Compiz Fusion and the media player VLC.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~ Mikey


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov 30 21:13:43 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:13:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <etPan.4750c021.328a2b63.2aa0@zaurus>
References: <etPan.4750c021.328a2b63.2aa0@zaurus>
Message-ID: <4750C357.2080902@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
> * Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com> wrote on 14:34:49:
>> That's good. I was going to add that it doesn't happen on my Apple IIe 
>> either, although the colors seem to be a bit skewed.
>>
> 
>     Update: If I start up OO 2.0.0 Calc and load a spreadsheet created with the Beta version, the math error still occurs. Only in a fresh spreadsheet or one prevoiusly created with the NON-Beta version does the problem go away.
> 

Why are you even using a 2.0.0 BETA version when OO
is already up to 2.2 RELEASE ?

Hmmm...
do you think, maybe, that a beta version just might
have bugs that were fixed in the release version?


I'm just asking.  I mean, are you a masochist, or
just looking for obsolete bugs?




From linux at ksimachine.com  Thu Nov  1 05:40:26 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 05:40:26 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.

Sorry.


From linux at ksimachine.com  Thu Nov  1 05:50:06 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 05:50:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <47294CEF.5070506@ameritech.net>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <47294CEF.5070506@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4729A14E.4080006@ksimachine.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Cool! What cpu and what kernel is it running? Is the resident OS on ROM?
> How much space?
>   
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

Yes the OS is on ROM.  "/" shows 5.9m free space on /dev/ram0.
/data shows 584k on /dev /mtdblock6.

I figure I can link most things to drive on the RAID volume and not use
much space on the root drive.

Other information is...

Login states "BusyBox v1.00-rc2 (2006.11.07-01:55+0000) Built-in shell
(ash)"

/var/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
cpu             : e300
revision        : 1.1 (pvr 8083 0011)
bogomips        : 265.21
chip            : MPC83xx
Vendor          : Freescale Inc.
Machine         : mpc83xx sys
core clock      : 399 MHz
bus  clock      : 266 MHz
PVR             : 0x80830011
SVR             : 0x80570011
PLL setting     : 0x6
Memory          : 128 MB

/var/meminfo
MemTotal:       126868 kB
MemFree:          6824 kB
Buffers:         58904 kB
Cached:          24232 kB
SwapCached:          0 kB
Active:          46236 kB
Inactive:        50228 kB
HighTotal:           0 kB
HighFree:            0 kB
LowTotal:       126868 kB
LowFree:          6824 kB
SwapTotal:           0 kB
SwapFree:            0 kB
Dirty:              20 kB
Writeback:           0 kB
Mapped:          21200 kB
Slab:            15028 kB
CommitLimit:     63432 kB
Committed_AS:    72224 kB
PageTables:        500 kB
VmallocTotal:   851968 kB
VmallocUsed:     19376 kB
VmallocChunk:   832280 kB

/var/version
Linux version 2.6.11SR1_1_2 (root at localhost.localdomain) (gcc version
3.4.1) #2 Tue Apr 3 15:43:13 CST 2007




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov  1 08:26:49 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 08:26:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs
	32bit	advantages	speedetc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193882290.4361.6.camel@aleph>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC80@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Adam Tauno Williams

> Ah, the rush to conspiracy.  Perhaps (a) it is a bug, or (b) a
> disagreement over the spec, or (c) they've encountered SSE/SSE2/SSE3
> implementations that don't work as reported so they err on the side of
> paranoia

 ...except Intel's never claimed (c), nor has anyone found any examples
of (c). As to (a), it appears the first iteration *was* a bug - programs
would *crash* on AMD chips instead of just running slower. The patches
produced by the third party show that (b) doesn't apply - altering the
compiler to remove just the "GenuineIntel" check does not impact anything
else, and "GenuineIntel" is *not* part of the SSE spec.

> And if it is (a) or (b) it may take a v-e-r-y long time to resolve;
> understandably so.

 Read the web page. The fixes are so simple they are in Perl scripts.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                            (313) 227-2317

 Novice electrician:
   Why should I waste time and money getting the right color wire?
   The electricity doesn't care.
 Experienced electrician:
   Electricity is color-blind.  Electricians are not.
                         -- unknown

 Novice programmer:
   Why should I waste time commenting code? The computer doesn't care.
 Experienced programmer:
   The computer is comment-blind.  Programmers are not.
                -- Dr. Robert J. Meier 1980
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  1 15:39:32 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (Matthew Krauss)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 15:39:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
Message-ID: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>

Hi all,

The company I just started with about a month ago for is hiring. I've
been very happy here so far, and I know there are always folk on the
list looking for work.  These are full-time positions, and ability and
drive are counted for more than work experience.

Original listings below.  If interested please reply to
GNXJobs at GMail.com.  If you have any questions for me, please ask
off-list.

Best regards to all,
Matthew

========================================

Explosive growth potential with this excellent job opportunity.

Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.

Candidate will be responsible for implementing new features, bug
fixes, and maintaining our existing code base as well as converting
the code to run on PHP 5 in our fully redundant high availability
clustered Linux environment.

Requirements
============
- Must have excellent problem solving skills
- Strong PHP 4 & 5 Programming experience
- Strong MySQL experience
- Strong knowledge of Javascript, HTML, XML, CSS, and DHTML.
- Healthy knowledge of Linux command line interface

Pluses
======
- Knowledge of version control systems (Subversion specifically)
- Knowledge of Linux system administration
- Knowledge of Apache administration & configuration
- Knowledge of MySQL administration & configuration
- Knowledge of SAN's and large enterprise computing infrastructures.
- Knowledge of clustered environments and creating high-availability services


PLEASE INCLUDE RESUME, CODE EXAMPLES, AND SALARY REQUIREMENTS.


*** 
NO RELOCATION.
SOUTH-EASTERN MICHIGAN RESIDENTS ONLY.
IN OFFICE POSITION/NO TELECOMMUTE.
NO OUT OF THE COUNTRY RESUMES.
NO CONTRACT/SUB-CONTRACT WORK.

========================================

Excellent job opportunity with explosive growth potential in the
Internet field.

Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
website developer/graphics designer to work on developing and
maintaining websites for the Adult Entertainment industry.

Candidates will be responsible for creating new websites from scratch,
as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.

Requirements
============
- Must have excellent problem solving skills.
- Strong HTML, XML, Javascript, CSS, and DHTML knowledge
- Understanding of how PHP works and ability to write HTML to work
  within a PHP template system.
- Ability to create professional looking, eye catching Graphics and
  Flash Animations.

Pluses
======
- Swish, Flex, and Actionscript knowledge
- XSLT & PHP Framework knowledge (Qcodo, Cake, CodeIgnitor, etc)
- Knowledge of version control systems (Subversion specifically)
- LAMP system knowledge
- Knowledge about providing high availability, redundant, failsafe
  services.


PLEASE INCLUDE RESUME, WEBSITE/GRAPHICS EXAMPLES, AND SALARY REQUIREMENTS.


***
NO RELOCATION. 
SOUTH-EASTERN MICHIGAN RESIDENTS ONLY. 
IN OFFICE POSITION/NO TELECOMMUTE. 
NO OUT OF THE COUNTRY RESUMES.
NO CONTRACT/SUB-CONTRACT WORK.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov  1 16:31:12 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:31:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Matthew Krauss

> as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.

 I can't resist saying... that sounds different when the employer is in
the "Adult Entertainment Industry". :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

  "Bill Gates is a monocle and a persian cat away from being
       a villain in a James Bond movie" - Dennis Miller
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Nov  1 17:35:10 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 17:35:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <4729A14E.4080006@ksimachine.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <47294CEF.5070506@ameritech.net>
	<4729A14E.4080006@ksimachine.com>
Message-ID: <472A468E.5010303@ameritech.net>

Joe St.Clair wrote:

<snip>
> Other information is...
<snip>
> /var/cpuinfo
<snip>
> /var/meminfo
<snip>
> /var/version
<snip>

Hmmm. Interesting that they use /var/ instead of /proc/.

Thanks for the run down!
Raymond McLaughlin


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 17:46:58 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 17:46:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] New Linux distro ;-)
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711011446w72aad0eetbe17178f364beea@mail.gmail.com>

This was posted to the PenguiCon list.  I felt... err... strangely
compelled to pass it on!

Cthulhubuntu!
<http://blog.wirelizard.ca/pivot/entry.php?id=42>

I guess Linux has its tentacles everywhere these days...

 ~~ Mikey


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Nov  1 22:14:14 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:14:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
	etc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>


On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:58 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: 
> >>> Has anyone run benchmarks on an identical system with 32 bit vrs 64 bit?
> 
> I haven't run "benchmarks", but I've run tests.  The plain and simple is
> that for the *vast* majority of workloads 64-bit offers no noticeable
> advantage, and usually a barely measurable difference.  I've even seen
> 64-bit run slower than 32-bit, especially if your application deals
> mostly with parsing and dealing with strings.
> 
> The real advantage of 64-bit is a larger address space,  which most apps
> just don't need.   It *might* be faster at some other things, like
> context switching, but not necessarily so, and it is going to depend on
> a myriad of other factors.
> 
> A good rule is to run 64-bit if you have an app that can effectively use
> a BIG address space, like PostgreSQL,  otherwise it probably isn't worth
> the bother until everything is 64-bit (since doing the
> this-is-32bit-that-is-64bit dance on a host is a pain).

Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.

Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN

Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
statement.

Best Regards,


-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Nov  1 22:35:55 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:35:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu 7.04 and Epson Scanner Success
In-Reply-To: <1192675748.30183.49.camel@plumber.site>
References: <1192675748.30183.49.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <1193970955.4386.12.camel@plumber.site>


On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 22:49 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> Hi,
> I finally got the scanner working Using Ubuntu! I used the directions
> here <http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=316961&highlight=scanner
> +epson> as well as looking up the vendor, product and usb id here
> <http://www.openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Anyone> and here
> <http://www.sane-project.org/cgi-bin/driver.pl?manu=&model=&bus=usb&v=&p=>. I edited /etc/udev/rules.d/45-libsane.rules manually to add my model. I had to reboot, restarting udev just didn't work. Presto, there it is!

	Okay, sort of. It appears that Ubuntu 7.04 cannot wake a sleeping
printer. Also, Xsane cannot find the scanner once it goes to sleep. I've
tried manually turning the printer off and then back on, logging off and
back on, and rebooting. Rebooting did it, but only until the printer
goes back to sleep??!! I switched printers, but that had no effect. I
tried my opensuse box and both worked fine. The new laptop finally got
here so opensuse it is!

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov  1 13:18:21 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:18:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>
	<47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>
Message-ID: <472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>

Joe St.Clair wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>>
>>
> 
> That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.
> 
> Sorry.

Bummer.

Maybe we can have a weekday-night meeting at
that site some time....





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov  1 22:44:18 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 22:44:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
 etc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>

Peter Bart wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:58 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: 
>>>>> Has anyone run benchmarks on an identical system with 32 bit vrs 64 bit?
>> I haven't run "benchmarks", but I've run tests.  The plain and simple is
>> that for the *vast* majority of workloads 64-bit offers no noticeable
>> advantage, and usually a barely measurable difference.  I've even seen
>> 64-bit run slower than 32-bit, especially if your application deals
>> mostly with parsing and dealing with strings.
>>
>> The real advantage of 64-bit is a larger address space,  which most apps
>> just don't need.   It *might* be faster at some other things, like
>> context switching, but not necessarily so, and it is going to depend on
>> a myriad of other factors.
>>
>> A good rule is to run 64-bit if you have an app that can effectively use
>> a BIG address space, like PostgreSQL,  otherwise it probably isn't worth
>> the bother until everything is 64-bit (since doing the
>> this-is-32bit-that-is-64bit dance on a host is a pain).
> 
> Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
> laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
> 
> Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
> o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
> ? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
> ? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN
> 
> Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> statement.

First, I'll give you my relevant familiarity with
this issue: in the commercial sector, I administrated
machines with 64-bit OS installs as far back as 10
years ago.  At that time, there were three options:

1) buy 32-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run 32-bit code.
or
2) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run ONLY 64-bit code.
or
3) buy 64-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run ONLY 32-bit code.

When AMD released the AMD-64 a couple years ago, a
fourth option became available:

4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
    both 32-bit and 64-bit code.

I *believe* that AMD is the only CPU manufacturer
with a product that provides option (4)  -- they
MIGHT have licensed the technology to Intel (if
needed for 2nd-source obligations to secure one
or more government contracts), or not -- I really
don't know for certain.

               =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Now, for todays Linux situation... even if your
hardware allows option (4):

A lot of web-browser plugins do not yet have
64-bit versions....and a 32-bit plugin WILL NOT
run properly in a 64-bit browser.  Many people
who have 64-bit installations are complaining
that they can't view Adobe Flash content, and
other similar problems.

                =-=-=-=-=-=-=

Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
extremely large database operations, etc) but has
not yet been completed in many areas.

Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
are capable of doing this), there are currently
a lot of problems still.

Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
were to go that route at this time.





From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Nov  1 23:04:17 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:04:17 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32	bit	advantages	speed
	etc.]
In-Reply-To: <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>  <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <1193972657.4386.20.camel@plumber.site>


On Thu, 2007-11-01 at 22:44 -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Peter Bart wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:58 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: 
> >>>>> Has anyone run benchmarks on an identical system with 32 bit vrs 64 bit?
<snip>
> > Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> > opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> > a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> > running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> > not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> > statement.
> 
> First, I'll give you my relevant familiarity with
> this issue
<snip>
>                =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

	I have no question as to your qualifications, your assesment is very
valued!

> Now, for todays Linux situation... even if your
> hardware allows option (4):
> 
> A lot of web-browser plugins do not yet have
> 64-bit versions....and a 32-bit plugin WILL NOT
> run properly in a 64-bit browser.  Many people
> who have 64-bit installations are complaining
> that they can't view Adobe Flash content, and
> other similar problems.
> 
>                 =-=-=-=-=-=-=
> 
> Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
> general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
> niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
> extremely large database operations, etc) but has
> not yet been completed in many areas.
> 
> Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
> in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
> are capable of doing this), there are currently
> a lot of problems still.
> 
> Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
> 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
> mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
> to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
> don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
> do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
> but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
> were to go that route at this time.

	Thank you very much for the insight. I'm very glad I asked!

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Nov  2 00:34:53 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:34:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
 etc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <472AA8ED.5060908@ameritech.net>

Peter Bart wrote:
> 
> Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
> laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
> 
> Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
> o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
> ? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
> ? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN
> 
> Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> statement.

Congrats on the new rig!

Back in August I finally built myself a new Core2 Dual desktop machine,
demoting my 1.1 GHz PIII the rank of backup computer.

At first I ran the 32 bit version of SuSE 10.2. I was very pleased. Of
course it was much faster and quicker than the machine it had replaced.

After a couple of weeks I got brave and installed the 64 bit version on
an extra partition. Everything works just like on the 32 bit version.
But I can't say it was really worth the trouble. I've used it for two
months now, and it doesn't really seem quite as quick to open new
windows, etc, as I remember the 32 bit being. But that assessment could
also be colored by the newness of the machine at first.

So far I've stuck with the 64 bit mostly "because it's there", but for
my day to day use the difference hasn't really been worth the time spent
worrying about it.

My $0.02
Raymond McLaughlin


> Best Regards,
> 
> 



From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Nov  2 02:09:40 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 02:09:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711020207490.2295@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-01, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
>> From: Matthew Krauss
>> as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.
>
> I can't resist saying... that sounds different when the employer is in
> the "Adult Entertainment Industry". :->

And I can only imagine the "eye catching Graphics" the job requires
you to create...

Michael


From painbank at gmail.com  Fri Nov  2 07:13:43 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 07:13:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711020207490.2295@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711020207490.2295@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711020413x2f5aaa52s9a4c892481799f55@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, but if you can sell it in an overbooked, overabused industry, then your
skills are mighty young jedi master!

Rich


On 11/2/07, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> 2007-11-01, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
> >> From: Matthew Krauss
> >> as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.
> >
> > I can't resist saying... that sounds different when the employer is in
> > the "Adult Entertainment Industry". :->
>
> And I can only imagine the "eye catching Graphics" the job requires
> you to create...
>
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img src="
http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0" alt="The Pain Bank
- SCA and WMA"/></a>
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From millerc at cantonpl.org  Fri Nov  2 08:41:34 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:41:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
 etc.]
In-Reply-To: <1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <59833.66.51.146.97.1194007294.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Peter Bart wrote:
> Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
> laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
>
> Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
> o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
> ? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
> ? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN
>
> Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> statement.

I've been installing SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and SLED
(SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop) on several workstations and servers.
I used the 64 bit version for a Core 2 Duo server, and had no problems
with 32/64 bit versions of software.  I read something about how SuSE
compiles their 32 bit software to run in a 32 bit environment with the
32 bit libraries, and this is all transparent to the user.  As long
as you install packages from the 64 bit repositories, I don't think
you'll see any problems.

I run VMware on that server and had no issues.  You can install
either a 32 bit or 64 bit OS inside a virtual host.

I'd say give opensuse a try and let us know how well it works.

c




From millerc at cantonpl.org  Fri Nov  2 08:44:09 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:44:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com> <4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>
	<47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com> <472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <59871.66.51.146.97.1194007449.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Joe St.Clair wrote:
>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>>
>> That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.
>
> Bummer.

I wonder...would you be able to bring pictures and get remote
access?  That would be almost as good as having the actual
device at the meeting.  I'd definitely be interested in learning
more about what you've done.

c




From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Nov  2 08:42:28 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:42:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu 7.04 and Epson Scanner Success
In-Reply-To: <1193970955.4386.12.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <20071102124823.D57B01412E@impelind.com>

It's the little things like that, which turn me towards OpenSuSe than any
other distro on the market. (SuSe has always been really damn good about
things like that, especially laptop support.)

What do you think of their new "One-Click" install system?

If you run an Nvidia graphics card, what do you think of how OpenSuSe will
"reinstall" the driver for you when you do an official Kernel update? (I
fricken love that myself, the less fiddling around that I need to do, the
absolute better it is, in my opinion.)

-Rob

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Peter Bart
> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 10:36 PM
> To: MDLUG's main mailing list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Ubuntu 7.04 and Epson Scanner Success
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 22:49 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I finally got the scanner working Using Ubuntu! I used the 
> directions 
> > here 
> > <http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=316961&highlight=scanner
> > +epson> as well as looking up the vendor, product and usb id here
> > <http://www.openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Anyone> and here 
> > 
> <http://www.sane-project.org/cgi-bin/driver.pl?manu=&model=&bu
> s=usb&v=&p=>. I edited /etc/udev/rules.d/45-libsane.rules 
> manually to add my model. I had to reboot, restarting udev 
> just didn't work. Presto, there it is!
> 
> 	Okay, sort of. It appears that Ubuntu 7.04 cannot wake 
> a sleeping printer. Also, Xsane cannot find the scanner once 
> it goes to sleep. I've tried manually turning the printer off 
> and then back on, logging off and back on, and rebooting. 
> Rebooting did it, but only until the printer goes back to 
> sleep??!! I switched printers, but that had no effect. I 
> tried my opensuse box and both worked fine. The new laptop 
> finally got here so opensuse it is!
> 
> Best Regards,
> --
> Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
> http://petertheplumber.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov  2 09:08:44 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 09:08:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] New Linux distro ;-)
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711011446w72aad0eetbe17178f364beea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC84@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> Michael Rudas

> Cthulhubuntu!
> <http://blog.wirelizard.ca/pivot/entry.php?id=42>

 People who like that may enjoy this story:

 http://www.goldengryphon.com/Stross-Concrete.html

 Ties the RIAA, MPAA, and Cthulhu... sort of.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                      (313) 227-2317

 "By executive fiat, the Constitutional protections of American
  citizens are now officially contingent upon the whims of the
 President." - Tom Tomorrow, regarding the Bush administrations
  avowed plans to detain Jose Padilla without trial until 'the
              war against terrorism is over'...
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From carew at pobox.com  Fri Nov  2 09:56:27 2007
From: carew at pobox.com (Evan Carew)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:56:27 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>

Matthew Krauss wrote:

>========================================
>
>Explosive growth potential with this excellent job opportunity.
>
>Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
>full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
>maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>  
>
I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.

Evan


From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Nov  2 09:59:10 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 09:59:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: OLPC at the Michigan User Group meeting Nov 13]
Message-ID: <472B2D2E.10803@ameritech.net>

  Our next MUG <www.mug.org> meeting is Tuesday, November 13, 2007

Download it, print it out PFD Announcement Flier
<http://www.mug.org/twiki/pub/Mugwiki/Meeting-20071113/mug_20071113.pdf>
and pass it out to everyone, your friends, coworkers, classmates,
facility in your local school district, community college, university,
EVERYONE. Also, notice we've become a member of the O'Reilly user group
program. The details of which will be forthcoming.


      Main Topic: One Laptop Per Child (OLPC)

*Ivan Krsti? - Director of Security Architecture for the OLPC project*

This month we have a fantastic opportunity to see what OLPC
<http://laptopfoundation.org/en/index.shtml> is all about from a member
of the OLPC team.

Ivan is a software architect and researcher currently on leave from
Harvard University. Prior to joining OLPC, he served as director of
research at the Medical Informatics Laboratory at Zagreb Children's
Hospital, developing software infrastructure for wide-scale digital
healthcare. He is deeply involved in open-source and free software,
notably as an administrator of the Ubuntu Server Team and co-author of
the best-selling Official Ubuntu Book, and specializes in architecture
and security of large distributed systems. He has consulted on both
matters for some of the largest websites on the Internet.

Ivan will share with us insights into the OLPC project that you just
can't get anywhere else. He's prepared to tell us about the technology,
security, science and anything else we want to know about the project.

Ivan is traveling from Cambridge, MA to Detroit specifically to be at
our meeting. This is our chance fill the auditorium and show Ivan how
strong the open source community is in south east Michigan.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have topics for future meetings you would like us to cover please
email the board <mailto:board at mug.org>, thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


      Where:

The MUG meetings are held at:

Farmington Community Library - Main Branch <http://www.farmlib.org>
32737 W. 12 Mile Rd.
Farmington Hills, MI 48334-3302

Click here
<http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&addtohistory=&formtype=address&searchtype=address&cat=&address=32737%20W%2012%20Mile%20Rd&city=Farmington%20Hills&state=MI&zipcode=48334%2d3302&searchtab=home>
for a map of the area.


      When:

the meetings are on the 2nd Tuesday of each month.

6:00pm 	Doors open, registration 	     O'Reilly
<http://www.oreilly.com>
6:30pm 	Meeting starts, Mug business
6:45pm 	Main presentation
8:15pm 	2nd Presentation
8:45pm 	Meeting adjourns
9:00pm 	Dinner at a local establishment



From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Nov  2 11:01:31 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 11:01:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
> First, I'll give you my relevant familiarity with
> this issue: in the commercial sector, I administrated
> machines with 64-bit OS installs as far back as 10
> years ago.  At that time, there were three options:
> 
> 1) buy 32-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run 32-bit code.
> or
> 2) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run ONLY 64-bit code.
> or
> 3) buy 64-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run ONLY 32-bit code.
> 
> When AMD released the AMD-64 a couple years ago, a
> fourth option became available:
> 
> 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
>     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.
> 
> I *believe* that AMD is the only CPU manufacturer
> with a product that provides option (4)  -- they
> MIGHT have licensed the technology to Intel (if
> needed for 2nd-source obligations to secure one
> or more government contracts), or not -- I really
> don't know for certain.

Option 4 is a available on *some* Intel 64 bit processors.
My off the cuff recollection is that when Intel first entered the 64 bit
market their product, codenamed Itanic^h_um was a fresh new architecture
with no backwards compatibility, and thus unencumbered with concerns
about supporting legacy code.

Some what later (or about the same time) AMD introduced their Opteron
(codenamed sledgehammer) processor with it's 64 extension of the the x86
command set.

While Intel's Itanium processor, failed to gain traction in the market
AMD's Opteron, did catch on. After a year or so (??) Intel had to admit
that they had missed the mark in the high-end to mainstream market. They
made whatever licensing deal they had to and began making their own
chips with their own implementation of the 64 bit AMD command set. I
think this is why x86_64 binary packages are often labeled as AMD_64.

Having thus discussed what we think we remember, let us now read up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itanic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opteron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_64

(Last month I actually slogged through the wikipedia entries on the
entire x86 line of processors. This is the next logical step)

> 
>                =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> 
> Now, for todays Linux situation... even if your
> hardware allows option (4):
> 
> A lot of web-browser plugins do not yet have
> 64-bit versions....and a 32-bit plugin WILL NOT
> run properly in a 64-bit browser.  Many people
> who have 64-bit installations are complaining
> that they can't view Adobe Flash content, and
> other similar problems.

I looked into this specifically before I installed the 64 bit openSuSE.
I was satisfied that there were suitable work around befoe installing.
Afterwards I found that OpenSuSE handled it gracefully, I'm not sure
how, but it is the 64 bit firefox, and flash does work. Thanks to
Lorenzo Colitti and Philip Chee for flashblock!

> 
>                 =-=-=-=-=-=-=
> 
> Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
> general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
> niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
> extremely large database operations, etc) but has
> not yet been completed in many areas.
> 
> Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
> in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
> are capable of doing this), there are currently
> a lot of problems still.
> 
> Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
> 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
> mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
> to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
> don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
> do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
> but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
> were to go that route at this time.

I disagree with this assessment. I would have had more validity 18
months ago but the software has matured in that time, and of late you
would really need to go out of your way to buy a 32 bit machine, eg
closeouts and refurbs. Aguablu good enough for now, but also closer to
the end of its life cycle and support cycle.

And on a x86_64 machine you could install 32 bit everything and be
happy, or provided your distro carefully (I can vouch for openSuSE) you
can install 64 bit and be just as happy and arguably better off for
having made the transition.

Raymond McLaughlin




From painbank at gmail.com  Fri Nov  2 13:02:42 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 13:02:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711021002h26699e26xfbfed1fc91ad8ac2@mail.gmail.com>

Just tell her it is a Web 2.0 company and it is all the rage... or were
those Web 0.1 companies

On 11/2/07, Evan Carew <carew at pobox.com> wrote:
>
> Matthew Krauss wrote:
>
> >========================================
> >
> >Explosive growth potential with this excellent job opportunity.
> >
> >Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> >full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
> >maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
> >
> >
> I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
> why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
>
> Evan
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img src="
http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0" alt="The Pain Bank
- SCA and WMA"/></a>
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From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  2 15:14:47 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 15:14:47 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <004901c81d84$a29e96d0$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

Here's a funny thought...

I wonder if you would get in trouble for surfing porn at work?   :-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matthew Krauss" <zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com>
To: <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 3:39 PM
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings


> Hi all,
>
> The company I just started with about a month ago for is hiring. I've
> been very happy here so far, and I know there are always folk on the
> list looking for work.  These are full-time positions, and ability and
> drive are counted for more than work experience.
>
> Original listings below.  If interested please reply to
> GNXJobs at GMail.com.  If you have any questions for me, please ask
> off-list.
>
> Best regards to all,
> Matthew
>
> ========================================
>
> Explosive growth potential with this excellent job opportunity.
>
> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>
> Candidate will be responsible for implementing new features, bug
> fixes, and maintaining our existing code base as well as converting
> the code to run on PHP 5 in our fully redundant high availability
> clustered Linux environment.
>
> Requirements
> ============
> - Must have excellent problem solving skills
> - Strong PHP 4 & 5 Programming experience
> - Strong MySQL experience
> - Strong knowledge of Javascript, HTML, XML, CSS, and DHTML.
> - Healthy knowledge of Linux command line interface
>
> Pluses
> ======
> - Knowledge of version control systems (Subversion specifically)
> - Knowledge of Linux system administration
> - Knowledge of Apache administration & configuration
> - Knowledge of MySQL administration & configuration
> - Knowledge of SAN's and large enterprise computing infrastructures.
> - Knowledge of clustered environments and creating high-availability 
> services
>
>
> PLEASE INCLUDE RESUME, CODE EXAMPLES, AND SALARY REQUIREMENTS.
>
>
> ***
> NO RELOCATION.
> SOUTH-EASTERN MICHIGAN RESIDENTS ONLY.
> IN OFFICE POSITION/NO TELECOMMUTE.
> NO OUT OF THE COUNTRY RESUMES.
> NO CONTRACT/SUB-CONTRACT WORK.
>
> ========================================
>
> Excellent job opportunity with explosive growth potential in the
> Internet field.
>
> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> website developer/graphics designer to work on developing and
> maintaining websites for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>
> Candidates will be responsible for creating new websites from scratch,
> as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.
>
> Requirements
> ============
> - Must have excellent problem solving skills.
> - Strong HTML, XML, Javascript, CSS, and DHTML knowledge
> - Understanding of how PHP works and ability to write HTML to work
>  within a PHP template system.
> - Ability to create professional looking, eye catching Graphics and
>  Flash Animations.
>
> Pluses
> ======
> - Swish, Flex, and Actionscript knowledge
> - XSLT & PHP Framework knowledge (Qcodo, Cake, CodeIgnitor, etc)
> - Knowledge of version control systems (Subversion specifically)
> - LAMP system knowledge
> - Knowledge about providing high availability, redundant, failsafe
>  services.
>
>
> PLEASE INCLUDE RESUME, WEBSITE/GRAPHICS EXAMPLES, AND SALARY REQUIREMENTS.
>
>
> ***
> NO RELOCATION.
> SOUTH-EASTERN MICHIGAN RESIDENTS ONLY.
> IN OFFICE POSITION/NO TELECOMMUTE.
> NO OUT OF THE COUNTRY RESUMES.
> NO CONTRACT/SUB-CONTRACT WORK.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.17/1103 - Release Date: 
> 11/1/2007 6:01 AM
>
> 



From linux at ksimachine.com  Fri Nov  2 15:24:44 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:24:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <472A468E.5010303@ameritech.net>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com>
	<47294CEF.5070506@ameritech.net>	<4729A14E.4080006@ksimachine.com>
	<472A468E.5010303@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <472B797C.9040007@ksimachine.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Joe St.Clair wrote:
>
> <snip>
>   
>> Other information is...
>>     
> <snip>
>   
>> /var/cpuinfo
>>     
> <snip>
>   
>> /var/meminfo
>>     
> <snip>
>   
>> /var/version
>>     
> <snip>
>
> Hmmm. Interesting that they use /var/ instead of /proc/.
>
> Thanks for the run down!
> Raymond McLaughlin
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

When I was coping from my SecureCRT window into the email I miss-typed
the /var/.
It is actually /proc/.

Sorry for the mistake.

Joe
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From linux at ksimachine.com  Fri Nov  2 15:31:33 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:31:33 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com>
	<4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>	<47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>
	<472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <472B7B15.10104@ksimachine.com>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Joe St.Clair wrote:
>   
>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>     
>>> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.
>>
>> Sorry.
>>     
>
> Bummer.
>
> Maybe we can have a weekday-night meeting at
> that site some time....
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   
Being the unit is in a production environment, inside a manufacturing
facility, I could not get permission for this.
I am wanting to get a duplicate system so I can setup NAS replication. 
Maybe it would be possible to do something with
it prior to putting it into service.  I don't know when this would
happen as there are other more pressing things ahead
of this, but when it comes up I will let the list know.

Joe
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From linux at ksimachine.com  Fri Nov  2 15:40:14 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 15:40:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dynamic storage system
In-Reply-To: <59871.66.51.146.97.1194007449.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <4727B535.50204@ksimachine.com>
	<4727C7A6.4050805@hotpop.com>	<47299F0A.8020205@ksimachine.com>
	<472A0A5D.5050209@hotpop.com>
	<59871.66.51.146.97.1194007449.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <472B7D1E.8070909@ksimachine.com>

Carl T. Miller wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>   
>> Joe St.Clair wrote:
>>     
>>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Can you bring it to the November meeting?
>>>>         
>>> That would not be possible as the unit is in use 24/7.
>>>       
>> Bummer.
>>     
>
> I wonder...would you be able to bring pictures and get remote
> access?  That would be almost as good as having the actual
> device at the meeting.  I'd definitely be interested in learning
> more about what you've done.
>
> c
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   
Remote access is absolutely out.  The box has no firewall and is
expected to be run from within a secure environment.
If anything happened....

You could see what the unit looks like at
http://www.promise.com/upload/product/nsbig.jpg

I would be more than happy (time permitting) to give out as much info as
possible what I have done so far.

I will try to put together and post it later.

Joe
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From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Nov  2 17:07:03 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:07:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
> Matthew Krauss wrote:
>> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
>> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
>> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>>
> I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
> why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.

Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
Not the wisest career move, IMO.

Michael


From gib at juno.com  Fri Nov  2 20:57:10 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 00:57:10 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed etc. - not
	supp	orted flash
Message-ID: <20071102.205710.23414.1@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>


Peter, I had a problem just today trying to install Adobe flash player on my 64 bit.  Guess I need to find another install options. The install says:

ERROR: Your architecture, \'x86_64\', is not supported by the
       Adobe Flash Player installer.


-- Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net> wrote:

On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:58 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: 
<snip>

Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
<snip>
Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
statement.

Best Regards,


-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on detox treatments for drug &amp; alcohol dependency.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifb8D3IEhnJaeaUVThFDnNd6RNDWMxyYDB0ZeTxmJqwbbXTG/




From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  3 00:24:49 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 00:24:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC82@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071103002449.7c50c87f@tessa.long>

On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:31:12 -0400
"Ingles, Raymond" <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:

> > From: Matthew Krauss
> 
> > as well as updating the look and feel of our existing websites.
> 
>  I can't resist saying... that sounds different when the employer is
> in the "Adult Entertainment Industry". :->

Cute :) I thought I had already spotted all the obvious humor...


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  3 00:38:36 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 00:38:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20071103003836.0adc944b@tessa.long>

On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 17:07:03 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
> > Matthew Krauss wrote:
> >> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> >> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
> >> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
> >>
> > I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife
> > explaining why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
> 
> Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
> that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
> Not the wisest career move, IMO.

Do you think it's necessary to say that on a resume?

There's been some kidding and that's great, we kid about it at the
office, but I also see some looking-down here, which kind of surprises
me.

This is a serious business. I had my doubts at first, but they are
really great, friendly people, who know what they are doing.  The
business is web development, design and hosting on the high end -
the "adult entertainment" angle is a starting point.

Disclaimer: I intended to just post the jobs and have nothing more to do
with it. It's not my intention to try to convince anyone of anything,
just to help connect people who I know are smart and driven to an
employer who needs them.

Best regards,
Matthew


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Nov  3 10:25:50 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 10:25:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32	bit	advantages	speed
	etc.]
In-Reply-To: <472AA8ED.5060908@ameritech.net>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site> <472AA8ED.5060908@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1194099950.4386.36.camel@plumber.site>


On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 00:34 -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Peter Bart wrote:
> > 
> > Okay then, I need to ask a stupid question. I finally received the new
> > laptop and it has a 64 bit processor.
> > 
> > Intel? Core? 2 Duo Processor T55004
> > o 1.66GHz, 2MB L2, 667MHz FSB with 64-bit
> > ? Mobile Intel? 945PM Express Chipset
> > ? Integrated Wi-Fi? compliant wireless LAN
> > 
> > Since it has that capability I was going to load the 64 bit version of
> > opensuse, if for nothing more than to know that it's there. Will this be
> > a hindrance to me, running openoffice, web browsers, VMWare? How about
> > running a 32 bit copy of Vista in a 62 bit opensuse? Or will I simply
> > not notice it? I'm not sure what you mean by the "dance on a host"
> > statement.
> 
> Congrats on the new rig!


Thank you! I will be using opensuse. I'll post my results and
experiences. I'm not so sure I'll be able to give this up when I'm done
with it ;-) That 17"display is gorgeous, it's a lot lighter than I
thought it would be. It'll be hard to look at that every day but she'll
be happy!


> 
> Back in August I finally built myself a new Core2 Dual desktop machine,
> demoting my 1.1 GHz PIII the rank of backup computer.
> 
> At first I ran the 32 bit version of SuSE 10.2. I was very pleased. Of
> course it was much faster and quicker than the machine it had replaced.
> 
> After a couple of weeks I got brave and installed the 64 bit version on
> an extra partition. Everything works just like on the 32 bit version.
> But I can't say it was really worth the trouble. I've used it for two
> months now, and it doesn't really seem quite as quick to open new
> windows, etc, as I remember the 32 bit being. But that assessment could
> also be colored by the newness of the machine at first.
> 
> So far I've stuck with the 64 bit mostly "because it's there", but for
> my day to day use the difference hasn't really been worth the time spent
> worrying about it.

	Thanks to all who have offered advice and their experiences.

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Nov  3 10:36:09 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 10:36:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu 7.04 and Epson Scanner Success
In-Reply-To: <20071102124823.D57B01412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071102124823.D57B01412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <1194100569.4386.47.camel@plumber.site>


On Fri, 2007-11-02 at 08:42 -0400, Robert Adkins wrote:
> It's the little things like that, which turn me towards OpenSuSe than any
> other distro on the market. (SuSe has always been really damn good about
> things like that, especially laptop support.)

	Yes, opensuse has been real good at these things. Printer and scanner
working aren't such small things  to me when I have to take time to try
and make it work. The other night when my step daughter had to print a
report; when I found out about it, try to email it (aol is way to slow
to send from and she doesn't want or use a client), burn it to disk,
take it to my box and then print it. Not something I want to do at
2200 ;-)


> 
> What do you think of their new "One-Click" install system?


	lol, yes now that I've figured out and gotten used to using
repositories! maemo.org is using the same thing on most of the programs
listed. It's great!


> 
> If you run an Nvidia graphics card, what do you think of how OpenSuSe will
> "reinstall" the driver for you when you do an official Kernel update? (I
> fricken love that myself, the less fiddling around that I need to do, the
> absolute better it is, in my opinion.)


	I still don't have a Nvidia card so I can't comment. Sounds great
though. Things like this really put the finishing touches on a distro!

Best Regards,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Fri Nov  2 20:30:36 2007
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 20:30:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Friday 02 November 2007, Michael Corral wrote:
> 2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
> > Matthew Krauss wrote:
> >> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
> >> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
> >> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
> >
> > I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
> > why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
>
> Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
> that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
> Not the wisest career move, IMO.

I seriously doubt it would be an issue. Size (webfarm size that is) is what 
matters and technology, not the mission of the employer. If anything its as 
likely to help as hurt, as it would make for some amusing banter during the 
interview.

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Mon Nov  5 00:44:07 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 00:44:07 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <472EADA7.5020307@arb.net>



Brian Hurley wrote:

>On Friday 02 November 2007, Michael Corral wrote:
>  
>
>>2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
>>    
>>
>>>Matthew Krauss wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
>>>>full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
>>>>maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
>>>why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
>>>      
>>>
>>Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
>>that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
>>Not the wisest career move, IMO.
>>    
>>
>
>I seriously doubt it would be an issue. Size (webfarm size that is) is what 
>matters and technology, not the mission of the employer. If anything its as 
>likely to help as hurt, as it would make for some amusing banter during the 
>interview.
>
>  
>
As the _only_ industry to consistently earn money on the net for more 
than a decade, how could it hurt your career ? They have pioneered many 
web technologies for making legal money on the net. IMHO.

-dave
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From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov  5 08:44:16 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 08:44:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <20071103003836.0adc944b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: M. D. Krauss

> There's been some kidding and that's great, we kid about it at the
> office, but I also see some looking-down here, which kind of surprises
> me.
> 
> This is a serious business. I had my doubts at first, but they are
> really great, friendly people, who know what they are doing.  The
> business is web development, design and hosting on the high end -
> the "adult entertainment" angle is a starting point.

 As the person who started the kidding here, I have to say I agree.
No need to be snide. I'm minded of the Heinlein quote discussing
"professionals offering services for pay". Google for it...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317

 [Senator Tom Delay is soliciting donations for a "children's charity"
 as a cover for raising money for the GOP. It seems that] part of the
  money would go to pay for late-night convention parties, a luxury
  suite during President Bush's speech at Madison Square Garden and
         yacht cruises. - New York Times, November 14th, 2003
        http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/14/politics/14DELA.html
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Mon Nov  5 10:12:06 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:12:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <472F32C6.9080307@arb.net>

I asked several times if they needed a security professional, but never 
got a reply...  Most people would at least reply.

-dave

Ingles, Raymond wrote:

>>From: M. D. Krauss
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>There's been some kidding and that's great, we kid about it at the
>>office, but I also see some looking-down here, which kind of surprises
>>me.
>>
>>This is a serious business. I had my doubts at first, but they are
>>really great, friendly people, who know what they are doing.  The
>>business is web development, design and hosting on the high end -
>>the "adult entertainment" angle is a starting point.
>>    
>>
>
> As the person who started the kidding here, I have to say I agree.
>No need to be snide. I'm minded of the Heinlein quote discussing
>"professionals offering services for pay". Google for it...
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317
>
> [Senator Tom Delay is soliciting donations for a "children's charity"
> as a cover for raising money for the GOP. It seems that] part of the
>  money would go to pay for late-night convention parties, a luxury
>  suite during President Bush's speech at Madison Square Garden and
>         yacht cruises. - New York Times, November 14th, 2003
>        http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/14/politics/14DELA.html
>The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>
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From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Nov  5 12:08:58 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:08:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <472F4E2A.3090208@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  As the person who started the kidding here, I have to say I agree.
> No need to be snide. I'm minded of the Heinlein quote discussing
> "professionals offering services for pay". Google for it...
>
>   

        "A whore should be judged by the same criteria as other
professionals offering services for pay -- such as dentists, lawyers,
hairdressers, physicians, plumbers, etc. Is she professionally
competent? Does she give good measure? Is she honest with her clients?
        It is possible that the percentage of honest and competent
whores is higher than that of plumbers and much higher than that of
lawyers. And enormously higher than that of professors."  -- R.A.
Heinlein; The Notebooks of Lazarus Long.

This writer comments that IT professionals had yet to be invented at the
time of the above comment.  :)

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Nov  5 15:46:57 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:46:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long> <472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711051531300.2116@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-02, Monsieur Brian Hurley a ecrit:
> On Friday 02 November 2007, Michael Corral wrote:
>> 2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
>>> Matthew Krauss wrote:
>>>> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking a
>>>> full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing and
>>>> maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment industry.
>>>
>>> I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife explaining
>>> why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
>>
>> Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
>> that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like, forever.
>> Not the wisest career move, IMO.
>
> I seriously doubt it would be an issue. Size (webfarm size that is) is what
> matters and technology, not the mission of the employer.

If you seriously believe that, then all I can say is that you are
very naive. Here in the real world, it can definitely matter.

> If anything its as
> likely to help as hurt, as it would make for some amusing banter during the
> interview.

Yeah, human trafficking and prostitution...that's funny stuff. @_@

The "adult entertainment", i.e. porn, industry is run by some slimy
people who get a lot of their "workers" by kidnapping young girls
from other countries, drugging them up, then forcing them into both
prostitution and pornography, oops, I mean "adult entertainment".
There are also a lot of runaways from right here in the U.S. who
get trapped into the same situation. It's a grim "business".

But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees
aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.

Michael


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Mon Nov  5 19:04:14 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:04:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711051531300.2116@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<472B2C8B.3060704@pobox.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711051531300.2116@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <472FAF7E.5080204@gmail.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> Yeah, human trafficking and prostitution...that's funny stuff. @_@
>
> The "adult entertainment", i.e. porn, industry is run by some slimy
> people who get a lot of their "workers" by kidnapping young girls
> from other countries, drugging them up, then forcing them into both
> prostitution and pornography, oops, I mean "adult entertainment".
> There are also a lot of runaways from right here in the U.S. who
> get trapped into the same situation. It's a grim "business".
>
> But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees
> aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.
>
> Michael
At least it's more honest than government.


From treii28 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  5 20:21:11 2007
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 17:21:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
Message-ID: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> Yeah, human trafficking and prostitution...that's funny stuff. @_@
>
> The "adult entertainment", i.e. porn, industry is run by some slimy
> people who get a lot of their "workers" by kidnapping young girls
> from other countries, drugging them up, then forcing them into both
> prostitution and pornography, oops, I mean "adult entertainment".
> There are also a lot of runaways from right here in the U.S. who
> get trapped into the same situation. It's a grim "business".
>
> But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees
> aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.

I've actually worked on some logistics for someone that was doing a 'adult entertainment' website.  (installing and networking some webcams basically).  Although it was a small enough job that I didn't list it on my resume, I learned enough to know that some very profitable websites are run by individuals who simply don't have the same hang-ups over their sexuality as the rest of the conservative types in the general population.
If you want to get technical, a good number of 'adult entertainment' websites don't use 'workers' at all but simply plagiarize photos they have collected from other sources and sell access to them for profit.
But if you also want to get technical, many so called 'legitimate' business have been seen to have equally repulsive business practices over the years, whether it is conveniently overlooking the use of child labor or sweat shops in third world countries when the bottom line generates a greater profit margin, leaving environmental calamities in their wake or having a few CEO's run away with company profits in mass scams.  (anyone remember worldcom?)
Makes me wonder how many interviewers and hiring committees remain abreast of those kinds of issues or condemn everyone that may have ever worked in an associated industry to the same standards as the crooks or other unethical types that perpetrated them?

SW



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov  6 08:02:52 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 08:02:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071106130856.6FE5B1412E@impelind.com>

> >
> > But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees 
> > aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.
> 
> I've actually worked on some logistics for someone that was 
> doing a 'adult entertainment' website.  (installing and 
> networking some webcams basically).  Although it was a small 
> enough job that I didn't list it on my resume, I learned 
> enough to know that some very profitable websites are run by 
> individuals who simply don't have the same hang-ups over 
> their sexuality as the rest of the conservative types in the 
> general population.
> If you want to get technical, a good number of 'adult 
> entertainment' websites don't use 'workers' at all but simply 
> plagiarize photos they have collected from other sources and 
> sell access to them for profit.
> But if you also want to get technical, many so called 
> 'legitimate' business have been seen to have equally 
> repulsive business practices over the years, whether it is 
> conveniently overlooking the use of child labor or sweat 
> shops in third world countries when the bottom line generates 
> a greater profit margin, leaving environmental calamities in 
> their wake or having a few CEO's run away with company 
> profits in mass scams.  (anyone remember worldcom?) Makes me 
> wonder how many interviewers and hiring committees remain 
> abreast of those kinds of issues or condemn everyone that may 
> have ever worked in an associated industry to the same 
> standards as the crooks or other unethical types that 
> perpetrated them?
> 

	They won't and the simple reason is that "the real world" everyone
keeps quoting deals heavily in something called "Double Standards".

	-Rob



From mdlug2 at arb.net  Tue Nov  6 12:49:59 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:49:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4730A947.8000306@arb.net>



Scott Webster Wood wrote:

>Michael Corral wrote:
>  
>
>>Yeah, human trafficking and prostitution...that's funny stuff. @_@
>>
>>The "adult entertainment", i.e. porn, industry is run by some slimy
>>people who get a lot of their "workers" by kidnapping young girls
>>from other countries, drugging them up, then forcing them into both
>>prostitution and pornography, oops, I mean "adult entertainment".
>>There are also a lot of runaways from right here in the U.S. who
>>get trapped into the same situation. It's a grim "business".
>>
>>But if you want to believe that interviewers and hiring committees
>>aren't aware of that, you go right ahead.
>>    
>>
>
>I've actually worked on some logistics for someone that was doing a 'adult entertainment' website.  (installing and networking some webcams basically).  Although it was a small enough job that I didn't list it on my resume, I learned enough to know that some very profitable websites are run by individuals who simply don't have the same hang-ups over their sexuality as the rest of the conservative types in the general population.
>If you want to get technical, a good number of 'adult entertainment' websites don't use 'workers' at all but simply plagiarize photos they have collected from other sources and sell access to them for profit.
>But if you also want to get technical, many so called 'legitimate' business have been seen to have equally repulsive business practices over the years, whether it is conveniently overlooking the use of child labor or sweat shops in third world countries when the bottom line generates a greater profit margin, leaving environmental calamities in their wake or having a few CEO's run away with company profits in mass scams.  (anyone remember worldcom?)
>Makes me wonder how many interviewers and hiring committees remain abreast of those kinds of issues or condemn everyone that may have ever worked in an associated industry to the same standards as the crooks or other unethical types that perpetrated them?
>
>SW
>
When we buy something "made in China" we are ALWAYS paying most if not 
all of the "cheap labor" component of the product to the government 
owned factory that is fueling the destruction of their ecology and 
funding their nuclear arms race with us....  NPR had an interesting 
segment on it last week (arms race). It is the same government Chairman 
Mao started and the one guilty of killing more millions of its own 
people than any in all of history. But hey, it is out of our sight and 
most Americans morals are tied so closely to the dollar.

-dave

PS - a couple years ago I wanted to buy a non-stick fry pan made in 
USA.  China-mart didn't have any - 70% by dollar of their product is 
made in China. Meijer actually had a selection including made in USA...  
The funny thing is, the locally made pans were of higher quality and $2 
cheaper than those at Wal-mart, or the Chinese made pans at Meijer. So 
much for "Cheap labor".  No, we don't have morals here for industry, 
adult or others.
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From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov  6 17:19:55 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen majorovic)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:19:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <4730A947.8000306@arb.net>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>
Message-ID: <4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> When we buy something "made in China" we are ALWAYS paying most if not 
> all of the "cheap labor" component of the product to the government 
> owned factory that is fueling the destruction of their ecology and 
> funding their nuclear arms race with us....  NPR had an interesting 
> segment on it last week (arms race). It is the same government 
> Chairman Mao started and the one guilty of killing more millions of 
> its own people than any in all of history. But hey, it is out of our 
> sight and most Americans morals are tied so closely to the dollar.
>
> -dave
>
> PS - a couple years ago I wanted to buy a non-stick fry pan made in 
> USA.  China-mart didn't have any - 70% by dollar of their product is 
> made in China. Meijer actually had a selection including made in 
> USA...  The funny thing is, the locally made pans were of higher 
> quality and $2 cheaper than those at Wal-mart, or the Chinese made 
> pans at Meijer. So much for "Cheap labor".  No, we don't have morals 
> here for industry, adult or others.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

So when does it become morally acceptable to buy Chinese goods?

Allen


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Tue Nov  6 19:40:07 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:40:07 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>
	<4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <47310967.8030505@arb.net>



allen majorovic wrote:

>Dave Arbogast wrote:
>  
>
>>When we buy something "made in China" we are ALWAYS paying most if not 
>>all of the "cheap labor" component of the product to the government 
>>owned factory that is fueling the destruction of their ecology and 
>>funding their nuclear arms race with us....  NPR had an interesting 
>>segment on it last week (arms race). It is the same government 
>>Chairman Mao started and the one guilty of killing more millions of 
>>its own people than any in all of history. But hey, it is out of our 
>>sight and most Americans morals are tied so closely to the dollar.
>>
>>-dave
>>
>>PS - a couple years ago I wanted to buy a non-stick fry pan made in 
>>USA.  China-mart didn't have any - 70% by dollar of their product is 
>>made in China. Meijer actually had a selection including made in 
>>USA...  The funny thing is, the locally made pans were of higher 
>>quality and $2 cheaper than those at Wal-mart, or the Chinese made 
>>pans at Meijer. So much for "Cheap labor".  No, we don't have morals 
>>here for industry, adult or others.
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>    
>>
>
>So when does it become morally acceptable to buy Chinese goods?
>
>Allen
>
If your moral compass has no problem buying Chinese made goods, you 
should have no moral problem buying porn. Otherwise, I would think as 
soon as they have another revolution and the people are not killed or 
imprisoned for their views, forced to work in Western sweat shops, etc.  
The basic human rights issues that some have voiced concern about the 
porn industry exist several orders of magnitude greater in China.

-dave

-dave
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From jcbender at bendorius.com  Wed Nov  7 07:36:50 2007
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:36:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <47310967.8030505@arb.net>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>	<4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
	<47310967.8030505@arb.net>
Message-ID: <4731B162.50609@bendorius.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> 
> 
> allen majorovic wrote:
>>
>> So when does it become morally acceptable to buy Chinese goods?
>>
>> Allen
> If your moral compass has no problem buying Chinese made goods, you 
> should have no moral problem buying porn. Otherwise, I would think as 
> soon as they have another revolution and the people are not killed or 
> imprisoned for their views, forced to work in Western sweat shops, etc.  
> The basic human rights issues that some have voiced concern about the 
> porn industry exist several orders of magnitude greater in China.
> 

	What does this have to do with Linux, exactly?  Take this slapfight 
elsewhere, please.  My mailbox thanks you in advance.




-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Nov  7 08:41:01 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 08:41:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <4731B162.50609@bendorius.com>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>	<4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>	<47310967.8030505@arb.net>
	<4731B162.50609@bendorius.com>
Message-ID: <4731C06D.3060803@ameritech.net>

Joseph C. Bender wrote:

>> ... human rights issues that some have voiced concern about the 
>> porn industry exist several orders of magnitude greater in China.
>>
> 
> 	What does this have to do with Linux, exactly?  Take this slapfight 
> elsewhere, please.  My mailbox thanks you in advance.

For your convenience MDLUG provides an "elsewhere called the "-discuss"
list.



From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Nov  7 20:15:31 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:15:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] President's mail bag
Message-ID: <47326333.3050508@ameritech.net>


Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:43:20 -0500
From: Kevin Cassidy <kcassidy at vailsys.com>
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071022)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: president at mdlug.org
Subject: Southfield UNIX Job for a MDLUG Member
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at www.mdlug.org

Raymond,

I'm going to be moving to Chicago to take a new position with my company
and need to find someone in the Southfield area to take over for me. I
was wondering if you might be willing to share a link to the posting
with your group, possibly via your mailing list? I asked the same
question in your IRC channel and it was recommended that I contact you.
We're very much a UNIX company and I thought this might be a good
opportunity for someone in your group looking for an entry level IT
position.

There's no need to include my contact information in the email, in fact
I'm not even the person who will be handling the applications. The
applicant can simply submit a resume as instructed in the job posting.

http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&dockey=xml/7/5/757448b293a530bc2fafabc783fab394 at endecaindex&source=19&FREE_TEXT=vail+systems

Thanks for you time,

Kevin Cassidy
Vail Systems, Inc.



From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Nov  8 14:52:21 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:52:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] FWD: Job posting
Message-ID: <473368F5.7080503@ameritech.net>

>From another list:

> > I'm looking for an embedded Linux guru to do a 6-12 month consulting
gig in
> > Rochester NY.
> >
> > Experience in any or all of battery-powered portable devices, PCI
drivers,
> > and 802.11 wireless would be a plus.
> >
> > Anybody interested in learning more, email me off the list: bear at di.org.
> > Serious discussion will require an NDA.
> >
> > Feel free to pass this along to anyone you know who may be looking
for such
> > a gig.

  The contacts real name is John Hall.

  Clif

--
.... Clif Flynt ... http://www.cflynt.com ... clif at cflynt.com ...
.. Tcl/Tk: A Developer's Guide (2nd edition) - Morgan Kauffman ..
.. 15'th Annual Tcl/Tk Conference:  Oct 2008,  Philadelphia, PA..
.............  http://www.tcl.tk/community/tcl2008/  ............
--
***  Sent from linux-users at lugwash.org  ***  http://www.lugwash.org
to unsubscribe: `echo "unsubscribe" | mail linux-users-request at lugwash.org`



From MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com  Thu Nov  8 20:12:04 2007
From: MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com (Michael David)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:12:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SGI Octane
Message-ID: <4733B3E4.8070204@wideopenwest.com>

Would any one have a spare power supply for a SGI Octane? If not, would 
any one know of a good CHEAP place to get one?

P/N 060-0038-001

Thanks,
Mike


From ldaphelp at thuemmel.com  Thu Nov  8 22:07:59 2007
From: ldaphelp at thuemmel.com (Mark Thuemmel)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:07:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SGI Octane
In-Reply-To: <4733B3E4.8070204@wideopenwest.com>
References: <4733B3E4.8070204@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <4733CF0F.5090801@thuemmel.com>

Michael David wrote:
> Would any one have a spare power supply for a SGI Octane? If not, would 
> any one know of a good CHEAP place to get one?
> 
> P/N 060-0038-001
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike

how about $115 on ebay?  Google the part#, pick more->products then sort
by price.

copy the big harry url to clipboard and visit www.tinyurl.com to make it
easy for eavyone......



http://tinyurl.com/27auau


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 22:44:03 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:44:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <472F32C6.9080307@arb.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC86@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<472F32C6.9080307@arb.net>
Message-ID: <20071108224403.1e4e2344@tessa.long>

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:12:06 -0500
Dave Arbogast <mdlug2 at arb.net> wrote:

> I asked several times if they needed a security professional, but
> never got a reply...  Most people would at least reply.

Sorry, Dave - this is entirely my fault.  You wrote to my personal
address and I had a problem with my email and didn't have time to
fix it all week. I will reply to your question off list right now.

Best regards,
Matthew


From treii28 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  8 23:31:33 2007
From: treii28 at yahoo.com (Scott Webster Wood)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:31:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] FWD: Job posting
Message-ID: <121600.94411.qm@web38015.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



----- Original Message ----
Subject: [mdlug] FWD: Job posting


>From another list:

> > Experience in any or all of battery-powered portable devices,

I thought for a second this was part of the ongoing thread about the job in the 'adult entertainment' industry and for some reason those words just popped right out at me... lol

SW



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From gib at juno.com  Fri Nov  9 07:48:35 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 12:48:35 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] SGI Octane
Message-ID: <20071109.074835.19662.1@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>

 
Radio Shack.

-- Michael David <MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com> wrote:
Would any one have a spare power supply for a SGI Octane? If not, would 
any one know of a good CHEAP place to get one?

P/N 060-0038-001

Thanks,
Mike
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Click now to choose from thousands of designs for your checks!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifWifkTUeMlYWYoXzeXtE6rQKk6UXa8W28xaq52wCjERRYTS/
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  9 10:33:32 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 07:33:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Upgrade from suse 10.1 --> Opensuse 10.3
Message-ID: <672354.99132.qm@web37905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just upgraded from Suse 10.1 to OpenSUSE 10.3.

The only glitch was it froze on a few packages that I wont use.  I'm hoping the move will allow for better printing options and use of resources like blue tooth, phone & PDA synking, and playing dvd movies.  

David C. Lane



__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
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From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov  9 11:45:25 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:45:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com> <472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20071109164525.GA30442@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 11:01:31AM -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
[aaron kulkis quoted too]

> > 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
> >     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.

> Option 4 is a available on *some* Intel 64 bit processors.

Any 64-bit intel CPU you'd buy in a "PC" would qualify.  You'd have
to go way out of your way and pay a lot more money to buy an Itanium.

Core 2 Duos are 64-bit; "Core" (what you might think of as "core 1")
CPUs are not.

There are 64-bit versions of the pentium 4 & celeron, as well as
Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.  some of the older p4-based
Xeons.  Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.

The relevant intel marketing word is "EM64T".

> My off the cuff recollection is that when Intel first entered the 64 bit
> market their product, codenamed Itanic^h_um was a fresh new architecture
> with no backwards compatibility, and thus unencumbered with concerns
> about supporting legacy code.

It is not compatible with x86 but it might be with HP PA-RISC.  Not sure;
but the architecture comes out of work done originally at HP and it was
certainly the market successor to PA-RISC.

A relevant intel marketing word for Itanium is "IA64".

> > Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
> > general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
> > niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
> > extremely large database operations, etc) but has
> > not yet been completed in many areas.
> > 
> > Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
> > in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
> > are capable of doing this), there are currently
> > a lot of problems still.
> > 
> > Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
> > 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
> > mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
> > to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
> > don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
> > do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
> > but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
> > were to go that route at this time.
> 
> I disagree with this assessment. I would have had more validity 18
> months ago but the software has matured in that time, and of late you
> would really need to go out of your way to buy a 32 bit machine, eg
> closeouts and refurbs. Aguablu good enough for now, but also closer to
> the end of its life cycle and support cycle.
> 
> And on a x86_64 machine you could install 32 bit everything and be
> happy, or provided your distro carefully (I can vouch for openSuSE) you
> can install 64 bit and be just as happy and arguably better off for
> having made the transition.

Red Hat supposedly does a good job of including 32-bit compatibility
libraries too (I know I install lots of compatibility libs on my
servers but i generally run native 64-bit code).  I think windows
does OK too but I'm sure there are exceptions.

There are a few other enhancements that were made in the AMD64
architecture that can help beyond the extra address space.  The one
that comes to mind is that they doubled the number of CPU registers;
i've read that x86 is "generally felt to be a register-starved
architecture" so this could be a help.  Certainly for many benchmarks
it doesn't seem to matter.  However, this supposedly helps Java
performance a lot, and maybe better compilers will help in teh future?

Personally, I'm with Aaron - for the desktop I wouldn't bother with
a 64-bit OS today, unless i had need & budget for huge amounts of
memory (photoshop or video editing come to mind).  

But of course Raymond is right, there's not much choice other than
to buy 64-bit CPUs.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov  9 11:51:26 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:51:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: Re: [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed
	etc.]
In-Reply-To: <472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20071109165126.GB30442@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Thu, Nov 01, 2007 at 10:44:18PM -0400, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> First, I'll give you my relevant familiarity with
> this issue: in the commercial sector, I administrated
> machines with 64-bit OS installs as far back as 10
> years ago.  At that time, there were three options:
> 
> 1) buy 32-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run 32-bit code.
> or
> 2) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run ONLY 64-bit code.
> or
> 3) buy 64-bit hardware, install 32-bit OS and run ONLY 32-bit code.
> 
> When AMD released the AMD-64 a couple years ago, a
> fourth option became available:
> 
> 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
>     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.

You could do this on UltraSPARCs as of Solaris 7.
Not all binaries worked in 64-bit mode but compatibility
was pretty good.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  9 12:43:45 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:43:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
Message-ID: <684824.95623.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well I'm there I will let you all know how it is going.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Dan Pritts <danno at umich.edu>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, November 9, 2007 11:45:25 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.


On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 11:01:31AM -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
[aaron kulkis quoted too]

> > 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
> >     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.

> Option 4 is a available on *some* Intel 64 bit processors.

Any 64-bit intel CPU you'd buy in a "PC" would qualify.  You'd have
to go way out of your way and pay a lot more money to buy an Itanium.

Core 2 Duos are 64-bit; "Core" (what you might think of as "core 1")
CPUs are not.

There are 64-bit versions of the pentium 4 & celeron, as well as
Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.  some of the older p4-based
Xeons.  Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.

The relevant intel marketing word is "EM64T".

> My off the cuff recollection is that when Intel first entered the 64
 bit
> market their product, codenamed Itanic^h_um was a fresh new
 architecture
> with no backwards compatibility, and thus unencumbered with concerns
> about supporting legacy code.

It is not compatible with x86 but it might be with HP PA-RISC.  Not
 sure;
but the architecture comes out of work done originally at HP and it was
certainly the market successor to PA-RISC.

A relevant intel marketing word for Itanium is "IA64".

> > Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
> > general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
> > niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
> > extremely large database operations, etc) but has
> > not yet been completed in many areas.
> > 
> > Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
> > in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
> > are capable of doing this), there are currently
> > a lot of problems still.
> > 
> > Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
> > 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
> > mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
> > to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
> > don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
> > do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
> > but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
> > were to go that route at this time.
> 
> I disagree with this assessment. I would have had more validity 18
> months ago but the software has matured in that time, and of late you
> would really need to go out of your way to buy a 32 bit machine, eg
> closeouts and refurbs. Aguablu good enough for now, but also closer
 to
> the end of its life cycle and support cycle.
> 
> And on a x86_64 machine you could install 32 bit everything and be
> happy, or provided your distro carefully (I can vouch for openSuSE)
 you
> can install 64 bit and be just as happy and arguably better off for
> having made the transition.

Red Hat supposedly does a good job of including 32-bit compatibility
libraries too (I know I install lots of compatibility libs on my
servers but i generally run native 64-bit code).  I think windows
does OK too but I'm sure there are exceptions.

There are a few other enhancements that were made in the AMD64
architecture that can help beyond the extra address space.  The one
that comes to mind is that they doubled the number of CPU registers;
i've read that x86 is "generally felt to be a register-starved
architecture" so this could be a help.  Certainly for many benchmarks
it doesn't seem to matter.  However, this supposedly helps Java
performance a lot, and maybe better compilers will help in teh future?

Personally, I'm with Aaron - for the desktop I wouldn't bother with
a 64-bit OS today, unless i had need & budget for huge amounts of
memory (photoshop or video editing come to mind).  

But of course Raymond is right, there's not much choice other than
to buy 64-bit CPUs.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From driveray at ameritech.net  Fri Nov  9 15:02:04 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:02:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] MDLUG meeting tomorrow 11-10 @12:30
Message-ID: <4734BCBC.4010206@ameritech.net>

MDLUG meeting tomorrow regular time, regular place, see website
<http://mdlug.org> for directions.

If there are no objections I will be demonstrating VMware Player and
Workstation. I'm still slogging through the documentation, but I've
learned enough to give a basic demonstration.

Hopefully Carl will be there to fill in the blanks.  He's also familiar
with vmware's VMware Server and other VMware products that I'm not
familiar with.

May be Gary will bring in some of his exotic OS disks and we can see how
they run. (hint hint)

Hope to see you all there.

Raymond McLaughlin
President MDLUG


From gib at juno.com  Fri Nov  9 15:35:58 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 20:35:58 GMT
Subject: [mdlug]  MDLUG meeting tomorrow 11-10 @12:30
Message-ID: <20071109.153558.14668.1@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>

 
Okay, great.  I plan to bring in my WiMax base.

-- Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
MDLUG meeting tomorrow regular time, regular place, see website
<http://mdlug.org> for directions.

If there are no objections I will be demonstrating VMware Player and
Workstation. I'm still slogging through the documentation, but I've
learned enough to give a basic demonstration.

Hopefully Carl will be there to fill in the blanks.  He's also familiar
with vmware's VMware Server and other VMware products that I'm not
familiar with.

May be Gary will bring in some of his exotic OS disks and we can see how
they run. (hint hint)

Hope to see you all there.

Raymond McLaughlin
President MDLUG
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Proven Hair Replacement Options. Click here.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifcymTXj9odo1hxP6PTEcjpYXZMCtqOQkhO3AcAlECnqcQrT/
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From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Nov  9 23:00:29 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Fri,  9 Nov 2007 23:00:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] LG VX6100 + Bitmap + udev(?)
Message-ID: <20071110040029.060BC127C42@starfox.local>

Cellphone users,

I'm still trying to access my LG VX6100 cellphone with bitpim.

How do I use/enable/install/? "USB modem protocol" driver/? ?



I am not familiar with udev,
and have been unable to learn how to configure it.
The man pages have not helped.
The 1-page howto I found has not helped.
Where is the documentation?

I suspect that I need to see /dev/ttyACM0 but it does not appear
automatically, and I don't know how to install it.
What kernel module is required?



I have a straight-through cable and SuSE-10.1
When I plug it in,
/var/log/messages reports:
...
kernel: usb 1-1: new full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 4
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 11 for device 0000:00:03.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:03.1
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:07.2
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.1
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 11 for device 0000:00:03.1
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:03.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:07.2
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.1
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 5 for device 0000:00:08.0
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 11 for device 0000:00:10.0
kernel: USB Universal Host Controller Interface driver v2.3
kernel: PCI: Found IRQ 11 for device 0000:00:07.2
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:03.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:03.1
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.0
kernel: PCI: Sharing IRQ 11 with 0000:00:10.1
kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:07.2: UHCI Host Controller
kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:07.2: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1
kernel: uhci_hcd 0000:00:07.2: irq 11, io base 0x0000dce0
kernel: hub 1-0:1.0: USB hub found
kernel: hub 1-0:1.0: 2 ports detected
...

/proc/bus/usb/devices reports
...
T:  Bus=01 Lev=01 Prnt=01 Port=00 Cnt=01 Dev#=  2 Spd=12  MxCh= 0
D:  Ver= 1.01 Cls=02(comm.) Sub=00 Prot=00 MxPS=16 #Cfgs=  1
P:  Vendor=1004 ProdID=6000 Rev= 0.00
S:  Manufacturer=LG CDMA USB Modem
S:  Product=Qualcomm CDMA Technologies MSM
C:* #Ifs= 3 Cfg#= 1 Atr=e0 MxPwr=100mA
I:  If#= 0 Alt= 0 #EPs= 1 Cls=02(comm.) Sub=02 Prot=01 Driver=(none)
E:  Ad=81(I) Atr=03(Int.) MxPS=  16 Ivl=32ms
I:  If#= 1 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=0a(data ) Sub=00 Prot=00 Driver=(none)
E:  Ad=8a(I) Atr=02(Bulk) MxPS=  64 Ivl=0ms
E:  Ad=0b(O) Atr=02(Bulk) MxPS=  64 Ivl=0ms
I:  If#= 2 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=ff(vend.) Sub=ff Prot=00 Driver=(none)
E:  Ad=83(I) Atr=02(Bulk) MxPS=  64 Ivl=0ms
E:  Ad=06(O) Atr=02(Bulk) MxPS=  64 Ivl=0ms
...

/opt/BitPim/BitPim-1.0.0/resources/usb.ids reports
...
1004  LG Electronics, Inc.
      6000 VX4400/VX6000 Cellphone
...

/opt/BitPim/BitPim-1.0.0/resources/usb_needdriver.ids reports
...
# LG phones - interface is USB modem protocol (and you should be using the
# diagnostics interface anyway)
1004  6000  1
...

bash> /sbin/lsmod reports
...
uhci_hcd               32016  0
usbcore               112640  2 uhci_hcd
...



What am I missing?
-- 
Robert Meier

"E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be
 used only to be used for company business."
      -- unknown


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Sat Nov 10 11:01:31 2007
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:01:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Hacker Attack
Message-ID: <4735D5DB.4000105@wideopenwest.com>

More evidence that running windows is hazardous to ones' financial health.

"Botmaster" admits infecting 250,000 computers

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0823938120071110


From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Nov 10 16:17:28 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:17:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [opensuse] 64 bit vrs 32 bit	advantages	speed etc. -
	not	supp	orted flash
Message-ID: <1194729448.3711.3.camel@plumber.site>

	I did manage to install opensuse 10.3 64 bit and followed the
instructions here <http://www.softwareinreview.com/cms/content/view/84>
to install all the not included goodies, including flash. It does appear
to work??

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com  Sat Nov 10 19:00:32 2007
From: MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com (Michael David)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:00:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] SGI Octane
In-Reply-To: <20071109.074835.19662.1@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20071109.074835.19662.1@webmail07.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <47364620.304@wideopenwest.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>
>  
>
> Radio Shack.
>
> -- Michael David <MikeLUG at wideopenwest.com> wrote:
> Would any one have a spare power supply for a SGI Octane? If not, would
> any one know of a good CHEAP place to get one?
>
> P/N 060-0038-001
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Click now to choose from thousands of designs for your checks! 
> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2112/fc/Ioyw6iifWifkTUeMlYWYoXzeXtE6rQKk6UXa8W28xaq52wCjERRYTS/>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.28/1123 - Release Date: 11/10/2007 3:47 PM
>   
Thank you, but I do not think Radio Shack has anything that will power 
up a SGI Octane.

Mike


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov  9 12:29:12 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:29:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
References: <189447.52517.qm@web38007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<4730A947.8000306@arb.net>
	<4730E88B.2010605@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <473498E8.6060201@hotpop.com>

allen majorovic wrote:
> Dave Arbogast wrote:
>> When we buy something "made in China" we are ALWAYS paying most if not 
>> all of the "cheap labor" component of the product to the government 
>> owned factory that is fueling the destruction of their ecology and 
>> funding their nuclear arms race with us....  NPR had an interesting 
>> segment on it last week (arms race). It is the same government 
>> Chairman Mao started and the one guilty of killing more millions of 
>> its own people than any in all of history. But hey, it is out of our 
>> sight and most Americans morals are tied so closely to the dollar.
>>
>> -dave
>>
>> PS - a couple years ago I wanted to buy a non-stick fry pan made in 
>> USA.  China-mart didn't have any - 70% by dollar of their product is 
>> made in China. Meijer actually had a selection including made in 
>> USA...  The funny thing is, the locally made pans were of higher 
>> quality and $2 cheaper than those at Wal-mart, or the Chinese made 
>> pans at Meijer. So much for "Cheap labor".  No, we don't have morals 
>> here for industry, adult or others.
> 
> So when does it become morally acceptable to buy Chinese goods?
>

For starters...when they stop using slave labor.

And on a practical level, when they stop threatening to
go to war with us because the US Navy keeps the Straights
of Malacca (sp?) and other commercial shipping channels
open to all vessels, regardless of flag.

At their general staff college, they've been teaching their
newly-appointed flag officers that they WILL be at war
with us by 2015-2010 timeframe.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov  9 12:24:23 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:24:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <20071109164525.GA30442@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com>
	<472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>
	<20071109164525.GA30442@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <473497C7.50904@hotpop.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 02, 2007 at 11:01:31AM -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> [aaron kulkis quoted too]
> 
>>> 4) buy 64-bit hardware, install 64-bit OS and run
>>>     both 32-bit and 64-bit code.
> 
>> Option 4 is a available on *some* Intel 64 bit processors.
> 
> Any 64-bit intel CPU you'd buy in a "PC" would qualify.  You'd have
> to go way out of your way and pay a lot more money to buy an Itanium.
> 
> Core 2 Duos are 64-bit; "Core" (what you might think of as "core 1")
> CPUs are not.
> 
> There are 64-bit versions of the pentium 4 & celeron, as well as
> Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.  some of the older p4-based
> Xeons.  Current xeons are, I think, core2-based.
> 
> The relevant intel marketing word is "EM64T".

But which of those are capable of booting up to a
64-bit operating system and then running 32-bit
code? -- it's NOT a trivial thing -- we had 64-bit
CPUs for over a decade before AMD developed one
that could accomplish this feat.


> 
>> My off the cuff recollection is that when Intel first entered the 64 bit
>> market their product, codenamed Itanic^h_um was a fresh new architecture
>> with no backwards compatibility, and thus unencumbered with concerns
>> about supporting legacy code.
> 
> It is not compatible with x86 but it might be with HP PA-RISC.  Not sure;
> but the architecture comes out of work done originally at HP and it was
> certainly the market successor to PA-RISC.

I believe Itanium was a joint HP/Intel project for HP's
next generation of HP-UX workstations.

And then Intel got miffed when HP switched from
PA-RISK CPUs to x86 architecture instead of Itanium.

> 
> A relevant intel marketing word for Itanium is "IA64".
>
>>> Basically, the 64-bit platform is not yet ready for
>>> general purpose computing -- it fulfills certain
>>> niche areas (massive finite element analysis,
>>> extremely large database operations, etc) but has
>>> not yet been completed in many areas.
>>>
>>> Even on AMD-64 chips, which can run 32-bit code
>>> in a 64-bit platform (the only CPUs I know of which
>>> are capable of doing this), there are currently
>>> a lot of problems still.
>>>
>>> Unless you have some bleeding-edge NEED for
>>> 64-bit code, my advise is to wait until this
>>> mess is all sorted out -- it's probably going
>>> to take another 12 - 24 months.  Personally, I
>>> don't need the frustration, and NOTHING that I
>>> do would benefit significantly from 64-bit install,
>>> but a lot would be degraded significantly if I
>>> were to go that route at this time.
>> I disagree with this assessment. I would have had more validity 18
>> months ago but the software has matured in that time, and of late you
>> would really need to go out of your way to buy a 32 bit machine, eg
>> closeouts and refurbs. Aguablu good enough for now, but also closer to
>> the end of its life cycle and support cycle.
>>
>> And on a x86_64 machine you could install 32 bit everything and be
>> happy, or provided your distro carefully (I can vouch for openSuSE) you
>> can install 64 bit and be just as happy and arguably better off for
>> having made the transition.
> 
> Red Hat supposedly does a good job of including 32-bit compatibility
> libraries too (I know I install lots of compatibility libs on my
> servers but i generally run native 64-bit code).  I think windows
> does OK too but I'm sure there are exceptions.
> 
> There are a few other enhancements that were made in the AMD64
> architecture that can help beyond the extra address space.  The one
> that comes to mind is that they doubled the number of CPU registers;
> i've read that x86 is "generally felt to be a register-starved
> architecture" so this could be a help.  Certainly for many benchmarks
> it doesn't seem to matter.  However, this supposedly helps Java
> performance a lot, and maybe better compilers will help in teh future?
> 
> Personally, I'm with Aaron - for the desktop I wouldn't bother with
> a 64-bit OS today, unless i had need & budget for huge amounts of
> memory (photoshop or video editing come to mind).  
> 
> But of course Raymond is right, there's not much choice other than
> to buy 64-bit CPUs.
> 
> danno
> --
> dan pritts
> danno at umich.edu




From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 04:01:59 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 04:01:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Sign from above
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711110101x5747a119i1225152c3a8bd9de@mail.gmail.com>

Gotta love Microsoft Windows -- such vivid color -- especially when it
runs on giant LED screens... ;-)

<http://pizdaus.com/pics/AdTf9bR8HlRi.jpg>

This is a great site for highly-amusing random pics, by the way.

~~ Mikey


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 14:35:10 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:35:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [TECH SUPPORT] LG VX6100 + Bitmap + udev(?)
In-Reply-To: <20071110040029.060BC127C42@starfox.local>
References: <20071110040029.060BC127C42@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711111135r4e30eb2asc2d0c5d5a1b1b607@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 9, 2007 11:00 PM, Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> Cellphone users,
>
> I'm still trying to access my LG VX6100 cellphone with bitpim.
>
> How do I use/enable/install/? "USB modem protocol" driver/? ?
>
> I am not familiar with udev,
> and have been unable to learn how to configure it.
> The man pages have not helped.
> The 1-page howto I found has not helped.
> Where is the documentation?
>
> I suspect that I need to see /dev/ttyACM0 but it does not appear
> automatically, and I don't know how to install it.
> What kernel module is required?

Try asking here:
https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=3581


From danno at umich.edu  Sun Nov 11 23:36:52 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:36:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <473497C7.50904@hotpop.com>
References: <4727816E.9040904@hotpop.com>
	<1193839127.7449.7.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<1193969654.4386.4.camel@plumber.site>
	<472A8F02.7010701@hotpop.com> <472B3BCB.4050803@ameritech.net>
	<20071109164525.GA30442@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<473497C7.50904@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20071112043652.GA78325@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 12:24:23PM -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> > Any 64-bit intel CPU you'd buy in a "PC" would qualify.  You'd have
> > to go way out of your way and pay a lot more money to buy an Itanium.

> But which of those are capable of booting up to a
> 64-bit operating system and then running 32-bit
> code? -- it's NOT a trivial thing -- we had 64-bit
> CPUs for over a decade before AMD developed one
> that could accomplish this feat.

All of them.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 01:02:53 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:02:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Newly discovered Windows vulnerability
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711122202j6666f49er531957299ce5205e@mail.gmail.com>

To quote John Hurt in Spaceballs, "Oh no, not again!"  Mentioned here
because many of us dual-boot or deal with heterogeneous networks...

"Security loophole found in Windows operating system"
<http://www.physorg.com/news114086937.html>

This is an appalling discovery (more so than usual). While only
Win2000 was tested, I'm sure that other Windows versions use the same
random-number generator algorithm -- right up to WinVista, most
likely.

~~ Mikey


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Nov 13 07:53:21 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:53:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <473497C7.50904@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC99@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> But which of those are capable of booting up to a
> 64-bit operating system and then running 32-bit
> code? -- it's NOT a trivial thing -- we had 64-bit
> CPUs for over a decade before AMD developed one
> that could accomplish this feat.

 Um, we run 32-bit AIX executables on 64-bit AIX regularly...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                 (313) 227-2317

 "'Depriving us of Trial by Jury' was actually considered sufficient cause
  to start a War of Independence, based on the then-fashionable idea that
                     'liberty' was an unalienable right."
             - Keith Olbermann on suspension of Habeas Corpus
                   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220450/
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 13 13:08:51 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:08:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Newly discovered Windows vulnerability
References: <b67fb0380711122202j6666f49er531957299ce5205e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001201c82620$3effa750$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

I know, I know...

Is it called Vista?

:-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Rudas" <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: <linux-user at egr.msu.edu>; "MDLUG's Main discussion list" 
<mdlug at mdlug.org>; "The WFTL LUG" <wftl-lug at salmar.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 1:02 AM
Subject: [mdlug] Newly discovered Windows vulnerability


> To quote John Hurt in Spaceballs, "Oh no, not again!"  Mentioned here
> because many of us dual-boot or deal with heterogeneous networks...
>
> "Security loophole found in Windows operating system"
> <http://www.physorg.com/news114086937.html>
>
> This is an appalling discovery (more so than usual). While only
> Win2000 was tested, I'm sure that other Windows versions use the same
> random-number generator algorithm -- right up to WinVista, most
> likely.
>
> ~~ Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 
> 12:00 AM
> 



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 13 17:55:38 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:55:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
Message-ID: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and so don't need that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks, Dean
-------------- next part --------------
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From otakurider at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 19:01:20 2007
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:01:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <cd5131a50711131601g29f35ad8p615f20597180e74a@mail.gmail.com>

Most of the


Here is a link to a list of web blocking sites like netnanny,
webwatcher, etc - not sure how long it will be up just FYI
http://www.wellresearchedreviews.com/computer-monitoring/?id=96&s=google&gclid=CMjA2vyC248CFQdEFQod8Ezb7Q

>From the testing in schools and business I have worked with squid
turns out to be the most stable for blocking sites - yes it does
require some tweeking.


Pat


On Nov 13, 2007 5:55 PM, Dean Durant <mdlug at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and
> restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we have
> squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand exactly how
> everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss says he doesn't
> like it.   My task is to find something simpler than squid.   The new boss
> says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and so don't need that.   He
> said, "find something else."   It doesn't have to be free.    Could be HW or
> SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks, Dean
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Nov 13 19:21:49 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 19:21:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Walinux
Message-ID: <473A3F9D.3010800@comcast.net>

Well Walmart has sold out the 200 buck Linux machine.  I don't know
whether to cheer or shudder.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 13 21:18:28 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:18:28 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <200711131818.28974.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

One of our best employees is a female who developed a large portion of 
the Playboy website.

And yes, the experience does make for amusing banter :)

On Friday 02 November 2007, Brian Hurley wrote:
> On Friday 02 November 2007, Michael Corral wrote:
> > 2007-11-02, Monsieur Evan Carew a ecrit:
> > > Matthew Krauss wrote:
> > >> Wixom/Novi area company with easy access off of I-96 is seeking
> > >> a full-time PHP/MySQL Programmer to work in-house on developing
> > >> and maintaining web applications for the Adult Entertainment
> > >> industry.
> > >
> > > I can just imaging the discussion I would have with my wife
> > > explaining why I wanted to join the team at nipple-net.com.
> >
> > Or even better, putting that on your resume. Seems like if you join
> > that "industry" you better be prepared to stay in it, like,
> > forever. Not the wisest career move, IMO.
>
> I seriously doubt it would be an issue. Size (webfarm size that is)
> is what matters and technology, not the mission of the employer. If
> anything its as likely to help as hurt, as it would make for some
> amusing banter during the interview.



-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 13 18:33:50 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:33:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] opensuse  64 bit vrs 32 bit advantages speed etc.
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC99@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBAC99@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <473A345E.2090702@hotpop.com>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Aaron Kulkis
> 
>> But which of those are capable of booting up to a
>> 64-bit operating system and then running 32-bit
>> code? -- it's NOT a trivial thing -- we had 64-bit
>> CPUs for over a decade before AMD developed one
>> that could accomplish this feat.
> 
>  Um, we run 32-bit AIX executables on 64-bit AIX regularly...

Which CPUs are in those machines?

I don't remember that being possible in
the first part of the decade even with
IBM's p5 series machines.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 13 18:50:33 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Newly discovered Windows vulnerability
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711122202j6666f49er531957299ce5205e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711122202j6666f49er531957299ce5205e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473A3849.6050105@hotpop.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> To quote John Hurt in Spaceballs, "Oh no, not again!"  Mentioned here
> because many of us dual-boot or deal with heterogeneous networks...
> 
> "Security loophole found in Windows operating system"
> <http://www.physorg.com/news114086937.html>
> 
> This is an appalling discovery (more so than usual). While only
> Win2000 was tested, I'm sure that other Windows versions use the
   ^^^^^^^
   Lose2000

 > same random-number generator algorithm -- right up to WinVista,
                                                         ^^^^^^^^
                                                         LoseVista

 > most likely.

Please use appropriate terminology ;-)






From ldaphelp at thuemmel.com  Tue Nov 13 23:39:38 2007
From: ldaphelp at thuemmel.com (Mark Thuemmel)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 23:39:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <473A7C0A.7080301@thuemmel.com>

One vote Squid.

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and
> restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we
> have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand
> exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss
> says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than
> squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and
> so don't need that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have
> to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can
> give.    Thanks, Dean



From jjn at nuge.com  Wed Nov 14 04:30:58 2007
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 04:30:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711140410360.22615-100000@home.nuge.com>



                    *** Meeting Announcement ***
                             for the
                 Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG

           Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm

           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
                      Room BE-140

              Topic:  Show-N-Tell
                 By:  A cast of thousands!


   This month's meeting will be "Show-and-Tell" night.  Put yourself on
the schedule for a 10 minute talk about cool hardware you've tried, neat
software you've discovered, mindless hacks you've perpetrated, etc.  
Anyone can bring anything (prefereably cool techno-geeky stuff and a bonus
if it's Linux related) to show off to the Peanut Gallery.  You don't have
to be on the agenda to speak.

Paul Wehr -- Will pass around his new [shipped-with-linux] ASUS Eee PC.

Joe Landman (maybe) -- Show us his "JackRabbit" Server.

Kraig Hayner -- Well, face it...we tap into Kraig every month just to keep 
                him awake and on his toes!

 ...and anyone else who wishes to Show-N-Tell...


                         ================================

      See [www.lugwash.org] for further information about the Washtenaw 
Linux Users Group, maps and directions, and mailing list information.

          --- Jay

"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
 be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  3:01am  up 191 days, 23:52,  3 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.07, 0.06





From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 14 08:21:59 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:21:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071114132820.7394D14143@impelind.com>

 
	Squid is likely the best possible solution for what you need.

	Is there something in particular that you boss dislikes about squid?

	Squid is also not terribly difficult to configure and figure out,
the vast majority of what you need to do, in regards to configuration, is
fairly clearly explained in the comments that are throughout the entire
configuration file.

	If understanding the configuration file is difficult, I'd suggest
installing something called "Webmin". It's a web browser based configuration
tool that has excellent modules for configuring virutally everything on a
Linux system. The layout of the squid module can make it easier to
understand how it all goes together.

	The squid-cache mailing lists are also very helpful, as is their FAQ
and howto documents.

	Being a caching proxy, squid is actually better, especially if you
have a "limited" Internet connection and many people tend to visit/access
the same outside webpages.

	I've been using squid for a number of years here and could probably
answer some/most questions you might have.

	-Rob
 


________________________________

	From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On
Behalf Of Dean Durant
	Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 5:56 PM
	To: mdlug at mdlug.org
	Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
	
	
	Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited,
and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we
have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand exactly
how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss says he
doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than squid.   The
new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and so don't need
that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have to be free.
Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks,
Dean




From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Wed Nov 14 09:38:35 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:38:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
Message-ID: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am wondering if
anybody has any recommendations of any software to do this easily?  If not,
I can just use something like OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software
out there that will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use
that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and relatively flat.
The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.

TIA,

Greg Wojtak



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 14 09:49:03 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:49:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
In-Reply-To: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <20071114145524.DF79E1412E@impelind.com>

Check out sourcforge and look through the network tools area.

I recall reading something about such software some time ago.

It's interesting stuff, never really needed to use it myself though.

I do believe that it involves tossing a good number of packets around the
network and comparing the times, averaging things out and then builds a
rough model of the network and what is located where in an abstract fashion.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Wojtak, Greg
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:39 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
> 
> I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am 
> wondering if anybody has any recommendations of any software 
> to do this easily?  If not, I can just use something like 
> OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software out there that 
> will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use 
> that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and 
> relatively flat.
> The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Greg Wojtak
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 14 10:03:25 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:03:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Comparing Linux Distributions - Final Results
Message-ID: <142146.47447.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Great article about Linux distros.
 
http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/eai/madgreek/archives/comparing-linux-distributions-final-results-20431





      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Wed Nov 14 10:06:30 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 10:06:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <20071114132820.7394D14143@impelind.com>
References: <20071114132820.7394D14143@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <1195052790.5358.19.camel@laptop01>

	
> 	Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited,
> and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we
> have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand exactly
> how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss says he
> doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than squid.   The
> new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and so don't need
> that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have to be free.
> Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks,
> Dean
> 
I recently set up DansGuardian to do content filtering it does require
squid but you can set up squid so it just does pass through and no
cacheing although I don't understand why you would not use the caching
feature.



From jcbender at bendorius.com  Wed Nov 14 11:27:34 2007
From: jcbender at bendorius.com (Joseph C. Bender)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:27:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
In-Reply-To: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <473B21F6.1000505@bendorius.com>

Wojtak, Greg wrote:
> I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am wondering if
> anybody has any recommendations of any software to do this easily?  If not,
> I can just use something like OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software
> out there that will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use
> that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and relatively flat.
> The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.
> 
	Take a look at cheops-ng.

http://cheops-ng.sourceforge.net/

It may do what you want.

-- 
Joseph Bender
Bendorius Consulting
P: 248-434-5580
F: 248-434-5581
jcbender at bendorius com


From linux at ksimachine.com  Wed Nov 14 14:31:20 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:31:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <473B4D08.9030505@ksimachine.com>

I agree with others and would suggest you learn Squid. 
It can be setup as a blind proxy, has caching ability, is fairly fast
and is not hard to learn.
I have a script that updates several lists I use.  The update script
runs at night.  It updates "porn" and "ad servers" lists.
I also use "Webalizer - Squid" and "Sarg" to automate the reports of
what Squid is doing.
In the past 6-12 months I have only had to make a couple of minor
adjustments, everything else is handled by the automated scripts.


Joe

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited,
> and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?   
> Presently we have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't
> understand exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.  
> The new boss says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something
> simpler than squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy
> features of squid, and so don't need that.   He said, "find something
> else."   It doesn't have to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I
> appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks, Dean
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Nov 14 14:15:03 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:15:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <473B4937.2080304@hotpop.com>

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and 
> restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we 
> have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand 
> exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss 
> says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than 
> squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and 
> so don't need that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have 
> to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can 
> give.    Thanks, Dean


It sounds like the problem isn't squid itself, or the idea
of proxies in general...but instead the problem is probably
just a really poorly designed configuration -- the main clue
here being "I don't understand exactly how everything works.
Neither does anyone else"

Sounds like the previous admin was a hack (NOT a hacker),
who, among other things, didn't believe in commenting
his work  -- probably because he didn't know very well
what he was doing in the first place.

I would keep squid, and design a new configuration
from scratch.

I've never had to admin a squid proxy, but I have worked at
places where it was being used.  Squid works well when
properly configured -- just like most other software out there.




From mdlug2 at arb.net  Wed Nov 14 16:33:27 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:33:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <473B4937.2080304@hotpop.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<473B4937.2080304@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <473B69A7.6040202@arb.net>



Aaron Kulkis wrote:

>Dean Durant wrote:
>  
>
>>Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and 
>>restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    Presently we 
>>have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't understand 
>>exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   The new boss 
>>says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something simpler than 
>>squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and 
>>so don't need that.   He said, "find something else."   It doesn't have 
>>to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I appreciate any help anyone can 
>>give.    Thanks, Dean
>>    
>>
>
>
>It sounds like the problem isn't squid itself, or the idea
>of proxies in general...but instead the problem is probably
>just a really poorly designed configuration -- the main clue
>here being "I don't understand exactly how everything works.
>Neither does anyone else"
>
>Sounds like the previous admin was a hack (NOT a hacker),
>who, among other things, didn't believe in commenting
>his work  -- probably because he didn't know very well
>what he was doing in the first place.
>
>I would keep squid, and design a new configuration
>from scratch.
>
>I've never had to admin a squid proxy, but I have worked at
>places where it was being used.  Squid works well when
>properly configured -- just like most other software out there.
>
>
>  
>
I have to agree with everything said, except I have admin'd Squid in a 
fortune 50 company as well as smaller companies. You could spend $$$$$  
for a cisco solution that would also have a learning  curve and it 
wouldn't gain you much other than getting locked into a smartnet 
contract if you want sw upgrades.

-dave (CISSP)
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From muteid10t at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 18:50:13 2007
From: muteid10t at gmail.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:50:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <473B69A7.6040202@arb.net>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<473B4937.2080304@hotpop.com> <473B69A7.6040202@arb.net>
Message-ID: <52995d720711141550v4b807b81yd6a71f5d7de77ef9@mail.gmail.com>

And squid is easier to learn than cisco, or any of the other
proprietary systems like it.

On 11/14/07, Dave Arbogast <mdlug2 at arb.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>  Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>
>  Dean Durant wrote:
>
>
>  Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, and
> restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy? Presently we
> have squid. It was a system we inherited. But I don't understand
> exactly how everything works. Neither does anyone else. The new boss
> says he doesn't like it. My task is to find something simpler than
> squid. The new boss says we don't use the proxy features of squid, and
> so don't need that. He said, "find something else." It doesn't have
> to be free. Could be HW or SW. I appreciate any help anyone can
> give. Thanks, Dean
>
>
> It sounds like the problem isn't squid itself, or the idea
> of proxies in general...but instead the problem is probably
> just a really poorly designed configuration -- the main clue
> here being "I don't understand exactly how everything works.
> Neither does anyone else"
>
> Sounds like the previous admin was a hack (NOT a hacker),
> who, among other things, didn't believe in commenting
> his work -- probably because he didn't know very well
> what he was doing in the first place.
>
> I would keep squid, and design a new configuration
> from scratch.
>
> I've never had to admin a squid proxy, but I have worked at
> places where it was being used. Squid works well when
> properly configured -- just like most other software out there.
>
>
>
>  I have to agree with everything said, except I have admin'd Squid in a
> fortune 50 company as well as smaller companies. You could spend $$$$$  for
> a cisco solution that would also have a learning  curve and it wouldn't gain
> you much other than getting locked into a smartnet contract if you want sw
> upgrades.
>
>  -dave (CISSP)
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From gib at juno.com  Thu Nov 15 08:35:32 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:35:32 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
Message-ID: <20071115.083532.14890.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com>

 
I plan to attend for the first time.  I'll bring my wireless equipment. Do you have an Ethernet connection to the Internet available in the meeting area?

-- Jay Nugent <jjn at nuge.com> wrote:



                   *** Meeting Announcement ***
                            for the
                Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG

          Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm

          Location:  Washtenaw Community College
                     4800 E.Huron River Drive
                     Ann Arbor, Michigan
                     Room BE-140

             Topic:  Show-N-Tell
                By:  A cast of thousands!


  This month's meeting will be "Show-and-Tell" night.  Put yourself on
the schedule for a 10 minute talk about cool hardware you've tried, neat
software you've discovered, mindless hacks you've perpetrated, etc.  
Anyone can bring anything (prefereably cool techno-geeky stuff and a bonus
if it's Linux related) to show off to the Peanut Gallery.  You don't have
to be on the agenda to speak.

Paul Wehr -- Will pass around his new [shipped-with-linux] ASUS Eee PC.

Joe Landman (maybe) -- Show us his "JackRabbit" Server.

Kraig Hayner -- Well, face it...we tap into Kraig every month just to keep 
               him awake and on his toes!

...and anyone else who wishes to Show-N-Tell...


                        ================================

     See [www.lugwash.org] for further information about the Washtenaw 
Linux Users Group, maps and directions, and mailing list information.

         --- Jay

"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 3:01am  up 191 days, 23:52,  3 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.07, 0.06



_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Bolster your sales numbers with professional sales training. Click here!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifVz95i1VV2SBupqWhIiflyfzeLn9XD7E1aMFNUVUz0ZbF44/
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From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 10:08:13 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:08:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711140410360.22615-100000@home.nuge.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0711140410360.22615-100000@home.nuge.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711150708t39096d80nd6155f5aa947d2e2@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 14, 2007 4:30 AM, Jay Nugent <jjn at nuge.com> wrote:
> Paul Wehr -- Will pass around his new [shipped-with-linux] ASUS Eee PC.
>
> Joe Landman (maybe) -- Show us his "JackRabbit" Server.
>
> Kraig Hayner -- Well, face it...we tap into Kraig every month just to keep
>                 him awake and on his toes!
>
>  ...and anyone else who wishes to Show-N-Tell...

If my laptop's hard drive is still working I can show off some of the
popular free 3D FPS games I've been messing with.


From gib at juno.com  Thu Nov 15 12:53:08 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:53:08 GMT
Subject: [mdlug]  Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
Message-ID: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>


Is the location easy to find?  I don't see a building name or description in the notice.  I can see the area in a map on mapquest.com.  I just wonder if it will be easily marked with a sign.

-- Jay Nugent <jjn at nuge.com> wrote:



                   *** Meeting Announcement ***
                            for the
                Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG

          Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm

          Location:  Washtenaw Community College
                     4800 E.Huron River Drive
                     Ann Arbor, Michigan
                     Room BE-140

             Topic:  Show-N-Tell
                By:  A cast of thousands!


  This month's meeting will be "Show-and-Tell" night.  Put yourself on
the schedule for a 10 minute talk about cool hardware you've tried, neat
software you've discovered, mindless hacks you've perpetrated, etc.  
Anyone can bring anything (prefereably cool techno-geeky stuff and a bonus
if it's Linux related) to show off to the Peanut Gallery.  You don't have
to be on the agenda to speak.

Paul Wehr -- Will pass around his new [shipped-with-linux] ASUS Eee PC.

Joe Landman (maybe) -- Show us his "JackRabbit" Server.

Kraig Hayner -- Well, face it...we tap into Kraig every month just to keep 
               him awake and on his toes!

...and anyone else who wishes to Show-N-Tell...


                        ================================

     See [www.lugwash.org] for further information about the Washtenaw 
Linux Users Group, maps and directions, and mailing list information.

         --- Jay

"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 3:01am  up 191 days, 23:52,  3 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.07, 0.06



_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


_____________________________________________________________
Boost your online security with a personal firewall. Click here!
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From millerc at cantonpl.org  Thu Nov 15 13:52:07 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:52:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <46919.66.51.146.97.1195152727.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

gib at juno.com wrote:
>
> Is the location easy to find?  I don't see a building name or description
> in the notice.  I can see the area in a map on mapquest.com.  I just
> wonder if it will be easily marked with a sign.
>
>           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
>                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
>                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
>                      Room BE-140

BE is the Business Education building.  Here's the link to
their website:

<http://www.wccnet.edu/aboutwcc/collegeinfo/directionsandmaps/>

c




From tony at bemushosting.com  Thu Nov 15 13:57:53 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:57:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <46919.66.51.146.97.1195152727.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
	<46919.66.51.146.97.1195152727.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <1195153073.7553.1.camel@bemus-tony>

Im thinking about going for the first time,  Does any one want to Car
pool?  I live in Taylor..

Tony 734-564-9799
On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 13:52 -0500, Carl T. Miller wrote:
> gib at juno.com wrote:
> >
> > Is the location easy to find?  I don't see a building name or description
> > in the notice.  I can see the area in a map on mapquest.com.  I just
> > wonder if it will be easily marked with a sign.
> >
> >           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
> >                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
> >                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
> >                      Room BE-140
> 
> BE is the Business Education building.  Here's the link to
> their website:
> 
> <http://www.wccnet.edu/aboutwcc/collegeinfo/directionsandmaps/>
> 
> c
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
-- 
Tony Bemus
Bemus Hosting
www.bemushosting.com



From driveray at ameritech.net  Thu Nov 15 16:04:43 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:04:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <473CB46B.2040204@ameritech.net>

gib at juno.com wrote:
> 
> Is the location easy to find?  I don't see a building name or
> description in the notice. 

"Room BE-104" = Room 104, Business Education Building
I see someone sent you a link to some maps. If you follow the
"Directions to WCC" link it will take you to a Google map. When you zoom
in the little red maker is just to the right of the BE Building. It's
the almost perfectly square building to the left of the marker.

> I can see the area in a map on
> mapquest.com.  I just wonder if it will be easily marked with a sign.

Yes, once you are on campus there are signs with arrows pointing the way
to the Business Education Building.

> -- Jay Nugent <jjn at nuge.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>                    *** Meeting Announcement ***
>                             for the
>                 Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG
> 
>           Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm
> 
>           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
>                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
>                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
>                      Room BE-140
> 
>              Topic:  Show-N-Tell
>                 By:  A cast of thousands!


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Thu Nov 15 19:25:34 2007
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:25:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 11/15/07
In-Reply-To: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20071115.125308.29849.1@webmail20.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20071115192534.15079456@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:53:08 GMT
gib at juno.com wrote:

...[snip]...
 
>                    *** Meeting Announcement ***
>                             for the
>                 Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG
> 
>           Date/Time: Thursday November 15th at 8pm
> 
>           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
>                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
>                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
>                      Room BE-140

                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^

BE-140 designates room 140 of the Business Education building.


From wolfger at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 21:00:14 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:00:14 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fwd: [ubuntu-us-mi] PenguiCon
In-Reply-To: <1195155916.6520.2.camel@trevor-laptop>
References: <1195155916.6520.2.camel@trevor-laptop>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711151800m4d09013dvf3d602f3fb824eaf@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------


This should perk the interest of many of you, a quote from a recent post
on penguicon's website:

"We have a whole slate of announcements to make today about the tech
track at Penguicon. Ubuntu Linux will be huge at Penguicon this year,
with the attendance of our two Tech Guests of Honor Jono Bacon and
Benjamin Mako Hill. Chris DiBona, Open Source Program Director for
Google and our 2006 Tech Guest, has let us know he'll return in 2008 and
bring Google's open source organizer and geek herder, Leslie Hawthorn.
Tech Nifties will also include Jorge Castro and Kyle Rankin. "

For those of you whom are confused, Jono Bacon is the Community Manager
for Canonical, and Benjamin Mako Hill is the Author of "The Official
Ubuntu Book."  Anybody else think it might be easier to get some free
'buntu swag now?


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Thu Nov 15 22:25:08 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:25:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
Message-ID: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>

Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:

A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.  
She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.   
Well, thanks for reading.  


From muteid10t at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 23:30:23 2007
From: muteid10t at gmail.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:30:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
References: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <52995d720711152030u55d73498i9c30df1f057393c2@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible for you to post some (or all) of the ACL rules to the list.
If posting all of the rules is to big for inclusion in an email then
please put them in a zipped text doc.

I imagine (if not me) someone here will have an idea what your squid
ACL rules are doing.

-Ron

On 11/15/07, Dean Durant <mdlug at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
>
> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.
> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?
> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.
> Well, thanks for reading.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Nov 16 08:24:16 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:24:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20071116133042.D58EF14140@impelind.com>

There is more than one way to deny access to sites.

One method does use regular expression and involves both a deny and an allow
lists.

If you are having trouble with certain areas of an otherwise allowed site,
you can alter the allow entry to include wildcards that will allow any site
that uses a portion of the URL you are having issues with.

I had to do this with a few such sites.

If this is the kind of setup you have, then all you need to do is alter the
text file and then restart squid and the change will begin working. This
isn't a change you need to make in the squid.conf file, so what you are
looking for (again, if this is the method used to block sites) is a line
pointing to a file outside of the squid.conf file.

The directions I had read when I set that up for us strongly suggested that
I put the porn and noporn regex files in the same location as the squid.conf
file, which was /etc/squid/ on my installation.

A quick check might be to see if you have some files just sitting in the
same location as your squid.conf named porn, noporn or allow, deny or some
other similar elements.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Dean Durant
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:25 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
> 
> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
> 
> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.  
>  She wants
> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain 
> dates.   There
> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants 
> to check.  
> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access 
> log and the
> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see 
> that squid
> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by 
> regex, and I
> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I 
> mean, I get
> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's 
> true, the
> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday 
> break.   
> Well, thanks for reading.  
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov 16 12:21:29 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:21:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: job openings
In-Reply-To: <200711131818.28974.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
References: <E1Inft6-0005VF-Nu@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.9999.0711021656540.2141@banana.sluggo.net>
	<200711022030.36719.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<200711131818.28974.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071116172129.GA68556@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 06:18:28PM -0800, Michael S. Mikowski wrote:
> One of our best employees is a female who developed a large portion of 
> the Playboy website.
> 
> And yes, the experience does make for amusing banter :)

I knew a guy who had a playboy fan-site way back in the day, before
playboy brought up their own site.  He might have even registered
playboy.com (if so, i'm sure he gave it to them when they asked).
They liked his work on his site enough they hired him sight unseen
to come out and work on their real site.

He ended up back in ann arbor a couple months later; they sent him
packing and said he "wasn't mature enough."  Guess he spent too
much time ogling the merchandise.  

danno


From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov 16 12:27:46 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:27:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
In-Reply-To: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <20071116172746.GB68556@maniac.deathstar.org>

there's something called scotty that's been around for years.
I don't know how much auto-discovery it has.

visio has some sort of discovery mode but i think it's geared more
toward M$ servers than network devices.  I have not tried it in
years; when i did try, it didn't immediately do something useful to
me.  worth a shot though.

I would be interested in a report of whatever you find.



on a related note, anyone aware of a freeware traceroute-like thing
for ethernet?  I can imagine how i'd write such a thing using SNMP
queries to the switches, and i've even cobbled together part of it,
but never really finished.  I heard a guy present at the Merit Joint
Techs meeting who had a homegrown tool that did this with cisco
switches, but it was using cisco-proprietary methods.

I believe that the Solarwinds product has this feature; anyone tried that?
In general, have folks used solarwinds?  It seems like it might be useful
and the price isn't too bad.

tnx
danno

On Wed, Nov 14, 2007 at 09:38:35AM -0500, Wojtak, Greg wrote:
> I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am wondering if
> anybody has any recommendations of any software to do this easily?  If not,
> I can just use something like OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software
> out there that will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use
> that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and relatively flat.
> The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Greg Wojtak
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From danno at umich.edu  Fri Nov 16 12:29:55 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:29:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
References: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20071116172955.GC68556@maniac.deathstar.org>

The first thing i'd do is see if squid's logging verbosity can be
increased; that might tell you what you want to know.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 10:25:08PM -0500, Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
> 
> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.  
> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.   
> Well, thanks for reading.  
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov 16 15:49:47 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:49:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <20071116172955.GC68556@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
	<20071116172955.GC68556@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <473E026B.70401@hotpop.com>

Dan Pritts wrote:
> The first thing i'd do is see if squid's logging verbosity can be
> increased; that might tell you what you want to know.
> 

and also do a

tail -f

on the log file so that you can see what each action
produces in the log file as it happens.+

> On Thu, Nov 15, 2007 at 10:25:08PM -0500, Dean Durant wrote:
>> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
>>
>> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
>> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
>> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.  
>> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
>> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
>> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
>> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
>> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
>> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
>> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
>> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
>> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
>> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
>> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
>> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.   
>> Well, thanks for reading.  




From otakurider at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 21:35:30 2007
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:35:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Network Map Software
In-Reply-To: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C360729B.4E8D5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <cd5131a50711161835x34f98bd2re3f64f9b87997264@mail.gmail.com>

I have used Autoscan, Netdiscover, Amap, GSN languard.  check out a
disk called backtrack2 or helix.



Pat
VP

On Nov 14, 2007 9:38 AM, Wojtak, Greg <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:
> I need to make a host/network device-level network map and am wondering if
> anybody has any recommendations of any software to do this easily?  If not,
> I can just use something like OmniGraffle or Visio, but if there is software
> out there that will help me generate it automatically, then I'd rather use
> that.  The network I am mapping is pretty simplistic and relatively flat.
> The hosts on it should number around 50 so it's not that complicated.
>
> TIA,
>
> Greg Wojtak
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 08:24:02 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 08:24:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>

LOL

I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
spyware, and wasted computer power...

"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
(Office 2000)."
<http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>

~~ Mikey


From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Sat Nov 17 09:04:46 2007
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:04:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711170904.46477.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Saturday 17 November 2007, Michael Rudas wrote:
> LOL
>
> I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
> perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
> Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
> anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
> spyware, and wasted computer power...
>
> "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
> Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
> processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
> (Office 2000)."
> <http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-aw
>ay.html>

I wonder how many X memory and processing power KDE or GNOME system using 
Star/Open Office has increased since 2000. Bloatware isn't a MS-only 
phenomenon.

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From wolfger at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 09:38:00 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:38:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <200711170904.46477.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711170904.46477.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711170638q58e7fdb6r6e55ecff7068f71d@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 9:04 AM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:

> > "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
> > Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
> > processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
>
> I wonder how many X memory and processing power KDE or GNOME system using
> Star/Open Office has increased since 2000. Bloatware isn't a MS-only
> phenomenon.

I'm curious to know as well, but X isn't a good indicator. If the
footprint was 1MB and is now 5MB, that's a 5x increase, but nothing
compared to a change from 20MB to 40MB, which is a mere 2x.
So, anybody got some good numbers?

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 17 09:44:24 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:44:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I see it a lot on my job.  A company will make a development decision that will cost their clients on computing resource overhead to make it "easier" to support.

I started programming in the days of the 286 and the 8088 pc bit slice and to have fast code you had to manage memory and know the architecture you were working with and use good programming techniques.  

Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost effective in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is passed onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

David 

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: The WFTL LUG <wftl-lug at salmar.com>; linux-user at egr.msu.edu; MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:24:02 AM
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


LOL

I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
spyware, and wasted computer power...

"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
(Office 2000)."
<http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>

~~ Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






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From wolfger at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 09:58:35 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:58:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost effective
> in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is passed
> onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
need for more powerful computers.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 17 10:22:01 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:22:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <698263.37784.qm@web37914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Kind-of,

I was at a National users group meeting and a presenter said that CPU  resources are cheap.  But I went to the hard classes in college Computer Science ( Not MIS ).  It costs a bit more up front to produce good efficient code. That code performs and does not require a super-fast liquid CPU to run things, 

But that might be good.  I means to me building a good Linux home office infrastructure  will be very cost effective.

In the case of development, developers are subject to "Business and Finance Managers" and they want  a path that yields the most money and costs the least. There is always some resource that pops up to make software development less costly to develop and the cost of that in the end is overhead and overall application performance.   

In the case of the schools that I consult for is a saleability and responsiveness.  

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:58:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost
 effective
> in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is
 passed
> onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
need for more powerful computers.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. 
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 17 10:28:17 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 07:28:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <794610.86515.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

By the way, that is why I moved to Linux.  



----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:58:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost
 effective
> in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is
 passed
> onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
need for more powerful computers.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Nov 17 13:10:19 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:10:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473F2E8B.40504@hotpop.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> LOL
> 
> I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
> perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
> Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
> anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
> spyware, and wasted computer power...
> 
> "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
> Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
> processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
> (Office 2000)."

That, combined with concocting new file formats which are
incompatible with old versions of office, is all part of
their strategy to get people to throw away their old
hardware, and thus buying yet another copy of the O.S.

> <http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>
> 
> ~~ Mikey




From mdlug2 at arb.net  Sat Nov 17 13:42:43 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:42:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473F3623.7030304@arb.net>

What really amazes me is nearly all CIO's are forgetting Business 101 or 
even SOX requirements -

Cost / benefit analysis....    Office 2007 cost 3x (12x?) more to 
operate, does it provide 3x more utility in return ? Better still, 
Office 2007 VS OpenOffice.

Same goes for Vista vs. XP, or better still Vista vs. Linux (pick your 
distro)

If they were really doing their job, they would see the hardware they 
invested in is not tied to an OS / Office suite that cost them millions 
per year in acquisition cost and many times more  in AV. / maintenance / 
performance costs.

-dave

Michael Rudas wrote:

>LOL
>
>I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
>perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
>Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
>anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
>spyware, and wasted computer power...
>
>"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
>Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
>processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
>(Office 2000)."
><http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>
>
>~~ Mikey
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 17 14:22:54 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:22:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <666757.68830.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes I was in a shop where I thought I had professional digression I asked every body in my group if it was okay to use Linux & MySQL for a project. After it was approved the tech manager forced Microsoft down on us.

They ended up paying a whole lot more money.

David

----- Original Message ----
From: Dave Arbogast <mdlug2 at arb.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:42:43 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


What really amazes me is nearly all CIO's are forgetting Business 101
 or 
even SOX requirements -

Cost / benefit analysis....    Office 2007 cost 3x (12x?) more to 
operate, does it provide 3x more utility in return ? Better still, 
Office 2007 VS OpenOffice.

Same goes for Vista vs. XP, or better still Vista vs. Linux (pick your 
distro)

If they were really doing their job, they would see the hardware they 
invested in is not tied to an OS / Office suite that cost them millions
 
per year in acquisition cost and many times more  in AV. / maintenance
 / 
performance costs.

-dave

Michael Rudas wrote:

>LOL
>
>I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
>perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
>Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
>anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
>spyware, and wasted computer power...
>
>"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
>Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
>processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
>(Office 2000)."
><http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>
>
>~~ Mikey
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. 
Make Yahoo! your homepage.
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From mdlug2 at arb.net  Sat Nov 17 14:33:06 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:33:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <666757.68830.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <666757.68830.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <473F41F2.60308@arb.net>

Like most places I have been, the CIO probably lacked vision and 
leadership. It is cut-throat at that level and they are usually more 
concerned about keeping the Thiefdom.

-dave

David Lane wrote:

> Yes I was in a shop where I thought I had professional digression I 
> asked every body in my group if it was okay to use Linux & MySQL for a 
> project. After it was approved the tech manager forced Microsoft down 
> on us.
>
> They ended up paying a whole lot more money.
>
> David
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dave Arbogast <mdlug2 at arb.net>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 1:42:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
>
> What really amazes me is nearly all CIO's are forgetting Business 101 or
> even SOX requirements -
>
> Cost / benefit analysis....    Office 2007 cost 3x (12x?) more to
> operate, does it provide 3x more utility in return ? Better still,
> Office 2007 VS OpenOffice.
>
> Same goes for Vista vs. XP, or better still Vista vs. Linux (pick your
> distro)
>
> If they were really doing their job, they would see the hardware they
> invested in is not tied to an OS / Office suite that cost them millions
> per year in acquisition cost and many times more  in AV. / maintenance /
> performance costs.
>
> -dave
>
> Michael Rudas wrote:
>
> >LOL
> >
> >I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
> >perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by
> >Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an
> >anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans,
> >spyware, and wasted computer power...
> >
> >"Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed on Windows
> >Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much
> >processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short years ago
> >(Office 2000)."
> ><http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-microsoft-taketh-away.html>
> >
> >~~ Mikey
> >_______________________________________________
> >mdlug mailing list
> >mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> > 
> >
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. 
> Try it now. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51731/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ> 
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
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From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Sat Nov 17 15:27:57 2007
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:27:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Saturday 17 November 2007, Wolfger wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost
> > effective in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost
> > is passed onto the endusers THAT is not fair.
>
> I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
> tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
> agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
> machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
> need for more powerful computers.

I forget where I read this, but some book defined the GUI as "The hardware 
manufacuturer's best friend."

You don't need a tinfoil hat and a conspiracy theory to deduce that CPU makers 
want to increase CPU usage, its an explict goal of Intel. They have admitted 
it is what's behind them pushing multimedia PC use since at least the mid 
90s.

While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS 
alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at 
both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office. 
Here's one example: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480

I also recall ESR arguing in the Art of Unix Programming against spending 
programming time on software optimization vs adding new features, especially 
when the answer to most complaints about slow software is just wait till the 
next CPU version.

* Software bloat is also arguably NOT bad. Not many of us still run Windows 98 
or Slackware 4 these days.

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 16:57:47 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:57:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
> While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
> alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
> both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
> Here's one example: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480
>

I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -
hundreds to thousands of them required per sheet.  There would be a
display sheet that would present the data in a user friendly format
(all formulas), a hidden sheet with the raw data (no formulas), and
another hidden sheet that processed the data into groups (all
formulas).  One of the generated sheets consisted of 1500 rows and 12
columns with about 30,000 complex formulas to present that data.

Keep in mind JExcelAPI does not pre-calculate formulas.  Therefore
whenever the spreadsheet is opened for the first time all formulas are
calculated.

Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.

I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
the right tool for the right job.  OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.

Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Nov 17 14:06:36 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:06:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <473F3623.7030304@arb.net>
References: <b67fb0380711170524x5b3b2afnf5ca076107535037@mail.gmail.com>
	<473F3623.7030304@arb.net>
Message-ID: <473F3BBC.40902@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> What really amazes me is nearly all CIO's are forgetting Business 101 or 
> even SOX requirements -
> 
> Cost / benefit analysis....    Office 2007 cost 3x (12x?) more to 
> operate, does it provide 3x more utility in return ? Better still, 
> Office 2007 VS OpenOffice.
> 

This is called "addiction"

> Same goes for Vista vs. XP, or better still Vista vs. Linux (pick your 
> distro)
> 
> If they were really doing their job, they would see the hardware they 
> invested in is not tied to an OS / Office suite that cost them millions 
> per year in acquisition cost and many times more  in AV. / maintenance / 
> performance costs.
> 




From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Nov 17 20:34:10 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 20:34:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
>> While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
>> alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
>> both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
>
> I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
> spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -

o_O

> Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
> shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
> was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
> would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
> progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
> could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
> seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.

So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
All I can say is: wow.

> I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
> the right tool for the right job.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
QuattroPro does.

> OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
> to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.

Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.

> OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.

Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
<http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 21:48:55 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:48:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711171848p58bc9d58g600fae5723fc0c1c@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 4:57 PM, Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
> Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
> shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
> was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
> would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
> progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
> could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
> seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.

I had a similar experience a few years ago.  I haven't tested it since
but I suspect it's a lot better.
http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=23172


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Sun Nov 18 02:43:51 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:43:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <473FED37.6050605@arb.net>

Guys,

Those with gray hair like me, do you remember what happened back when M$ 
released Excel version 4 for the Mac OS and they wanted EVERYONE to 
upgrade from Excel 3 ???   Those that did not upgrade but still 
exchanged files between 2 computers - one with Excel 3, the other with 
Excel 4, suffered catastrophic corruption of the hard drive. This 
appeared to the user like the HD had gone belly up.  I invested many 
hours to recover the data from such hard drives. It is still the same 
company and the developers from then (circa 1990) are likely development 
managers now for the next batch of Excel developers.

-dave

Michael Corral wrote:

>2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>  
>
>>On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
>>>alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
>>>both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
>>>      
>>>
>>I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
>>spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -
>>    
>>
>
>o_O
>
>  
>
>>Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
>>shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
>>was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
>>would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
>>progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
>>could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
>>seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.
>>    
>>
>
>So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
>as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
>of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
>created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
>and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
>All I can say is: wow.
>
>  
>
>>I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
>>the right tool for the right job.
>>    
>>
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
>instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
>the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
>complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
>QuattroPro does.
>
>  
>
>>OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
>>to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>>    
>>
>
>Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
>using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.
>
>  
>
>>OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>>    
>>
>
>Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
>to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
><http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
>Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p
>
>Michael
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>  
>
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 18 09:13:18 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 06:13:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
Message-ID: <446358.21594.qm@web37909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That may be but the rush to market, and the optimizing pass in development is costly when non development staff  says we have got to put this thing off.  


 
----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:58:35 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away


On Nov 17, 2007 9:44 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Microsoft and other companies are looking to make development cost
 effective
> in so doing it takes computing resources and the ultimate cost is
 passed
> onto the endusers THAT is not fair.

I think there's more to it than that. Maybe I've been wearing a
tinfoil hat too long, but it seems to me that there's some sort of
agreement between computer makers (who distribute Windows on every
machine... until recently) and Microsoft, who constantly drives the
need for more powerful computers.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you 
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sat Nov 17 21:59:35 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:59:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711171848p58bc9d58g600fae5723fc0c1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<b02c40e90711171848p58bc9d58g600fae5723fc0c1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <473FAA97.8000605@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2007 4:57 PM, Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
>> shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
>> was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
>> would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
>> progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
>> could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
>> seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.
> 
> I had a similar experience a few years ago.  I haven't tested it since
> but I suspect it's a lot better.
> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=23172

On the other hand, Open Office opens OpenOffice spreadsheets
quite quickly.  Any clue why that is?




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Nov 18 05:41:19 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 05:41:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <473FED37.6050605@arb.net>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<473FED37.6050605@arb.net>
Message-ID: <474016CF.6070605@hotpop.com>

Dave Arbogast wrote:
> Guys,
> 
> Those with gray hair like me, do you remember what happened back when M$ 
> released Excel version 4 for the Mac OS and they wanted EVERYONE to 
> upgrade from Excel 3 ???   Those that did not upgrade but still 
> exchanged files between 2 computers - one with Excel 3, the other with 
> Excel 4, suffered catastrophic corruption of the hard drive. This 
> appeared to the user like the HD had gone belly up.  I invested many 
> hours to recover the data from such hard drives. It is still the same 
> company and the developers from then (circa 1990) are likely development 
> managers now for the next batch of Excel developers.
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^

Dave, you misspelled "computer vandals"


> 
> -dave
> 
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> 2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>>   
>>> On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
>>>     
>>>> While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
>>>> alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
>>>> both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
>>>>       
>>> I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
>>> spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -
>>>     
>>
>> o_O
>>
>>   
>>> Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
>>> shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
>>> was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
>>> would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
>>> progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
>>> could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
>>> seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.
>>>     
>>
>> So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
>> as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
>> of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
>> created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
>> and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
>> All I can say is: wow.
>>
>>   
>>> I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
>>> the right tool for the right job.
>>>     
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
>> instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
>> the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
>> complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
>> QuattroPro does.
>>
>>   
>>> OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
>>> to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>>>     
>>
>> Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
>> using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.
>>
>>   
>>> OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>>>     
>>
>> Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
>> to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
>> <http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
>> Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p
>>
>> Michael




From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 18:21:36 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 18:21:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 17, 2007 8:34 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> 2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
> as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
> of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
> created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
> and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
> All I can say is: wow.

I'm complaining that an open source alternative that claims to support
Excel and it's formulas shouldn't need to be so inefficient.  None of
the formulas used were custom, they were all standard Excel formulas
such as vlookup, sum, etc. etc.

>
> > I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
> > the right tool for the right job.
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
> instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
> the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
> complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
> QuattroPro does.

Because the spec asked for Excel spreadsheets that could also be
opened in OpenOffice.  Therefore .xls files are the answer.

>
> > OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
> > to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>
> Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
> using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.

OpenOffice was being used with one of the intentions it was designed
for: to open, read, and manipulate Excel spreadsheets.  My only
complaint is that it was so damn slow and inefficient.

> > OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>
> Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
> to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
> <http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
> Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p

If they do and a client points it out to us, well, I've already
collated all the documentation necessary to say "we can't do anything
about it." :)

I'm not looking to cause a religious war or flame thread here, I was
just backing up Brian Hurley's link with real life experience. (
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480 )

Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Nov 18 20:48:57 2007
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:48:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4740EB89.7090203@arb.net>



Clinton V. Weiss wrote:

>On Nov 17, 2007 3:27 PM, Brian Hurley <brian at detroitindustrial.org> wrote:
>  
>
>>While software bloat is arguably bad* its definitely not restricted to MS
>>alone. I've read more than one benchmark showing that OO is much worse at
>>both speed and memory use than even the currently uber bloated MS Office.
>>Here's one example: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480
>>
>>    
>>
>
>I have to agree with this 100%.  Last May I wrote a complex
>spreadsheet generated in JExcelAPI (Java) that was pure formulas -
>hundreds to thousands of them required per sheet.  There would be a
>display sheet that would present the data in a user friendly format
>(all formulas), a hidden sheet with the raw data (no formulas), and
>another hidden sheet that processed the data into groups (all
>formulas).  One of the generated sheets consisted of 1500 rows and 12
>columns with about 30,000 complex formulas to present that data.
>
>Keep in mind JExcelAPI does not pre-calculate formulas.  Therefore
>whenever the spreadsheet is opened for the first time all formulas are
>calculated.
>
>Excel would open the spreadsheet and calculate all formulas in just
>shy of 10 seconds, meanwhile displaying a progress meter such that it
>was obvious to the user that it was "working."  OpenOffice, however,
>would open with a solid white screen.  After several seconds a
>progress meter would somewhat display near the bottom and the user
>could see OO crawling through the formulas.  Finally, after about 60
>seconds, OO would finish and the rest of the screen would catch up.
>
>I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
>the right tool for the right job.  OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
>to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>
>Clinton
>
>  
>
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From brian at dangerbacon.com  Sun Nov 18 21:01:29 2007
From: brian at dangerbacon.com (Brian)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:01:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711182101.33501.brian@dangerbacon.com>

On Sunday 18 November 2007 06:21:36 pm Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2007 8:34 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> > 2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
> > So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
> > as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
> > of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
> > created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
> > and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
> > All I can say is: wow.
>
> I'm complaining that an open source alternative that claims to support
> Excel and it's formulas shouldn't need to be so inefficient.  None of
> the formulas used were custom, they were all standard Excel formulas
> such as vlookup, sum, etc. etc.
>

If they're all standard formulas, I wonder how other non-java-bloated 
alternatives would fare (e.g, gnumeric, koffice).  

-- 
Brian
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From mdlug3 at arb.net  Sun Nov 18 20:30:08 2007
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:30:08 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <473B4D08.9030505@ksimachine.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<473B4D08.9030505@ksimachine.com>
Message-ID: <4740E720.5010401@arb.net>

Dean, any luck with the boss and squid, or did you have to choose 
another route ?

-dave

Joe St.Clair wrote:

> I agree with others and would suggest you learn Squid. 
> It can be setup as a blind proxy, has caching ability, is fairly fast 
> and is not hard to learn.
> I have a script that updates several lists I use.  The update script 
> runs at night.  It updates "porn" and "ad servers" lists.
> I also use "Webalizer - Squid" and "Sarg" to automate the reports of 
> what Squid is doing.
> In the past 6-12 months I have only had to make a couple of minor 
> adjustments, everything else is handled by the automated scripts.
>
>
> Joe
>
> Dean Durant wrote:
>
>> Hello, does anyone know of software that monitors web sites visited, 
>> and restricts unwanted sites without beng an actual proxy?    
>> Presently we have squid.  It was a system we inherited.  But I don't 
>> understand exactly how everything works.  Neither does anyone else.   
>> The new boss says he doesn't like it.   My task is to find something 
>> simpler than squid.   The new boss says we don't use the proxy 
>> features of squid, and so don't need that.   He said, "find something 
>> else."   It doesn't have to be free.    Could be HW or SW.     I 
>> appreciate any help anyone can give.    Thanks, Dean
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Sun Nov 18 21:26:50 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:26:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4740F46A.7000407@hotpop.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Nov 17, 2007 8:34 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
>> 2007-11-17, Monsieur Clinton V. Weiss a ecrit:
>> So let me get this right. You're complaining that OpenOffice was not
>> as robust as Excel in opening a complex *Excel* spreadsheet with tons
>> of embedded *Excel* formulas, and this for a spreadsheet that was
>> created with a library (JExcelApi) that was designed to "read, write
>> and modify Excel spreadsheets" (<http://jexcelapi.sourceforge.net/>)?
>> All I can say is: wow.
> 
> I'm complaining that an open source alternative that claims to support
> Excel and it's formulas shouldn't need to be so inefficient.

Considering that even the  internal FORMAT of all office
files is trade secret, and oftentimes, not even well
documented within Microsoft itself, you expect a
reverse-engineered implementation to be just as efficient
why, exactly?


> None of
> the formulas used were custom, they were all standard Excel formulas
> such as vlookup, sum, etc. etc.

Yes, but who knows WHAT Microsoft's algorithms in Excel
look like?  Of the times that I've seen code snippets from
Microsoft released for public viewing, it's looked pretty
cludgy...which is often-times fast in particular instances,
but can lead to complete lockups in others, because of
lack of error-checking, etc.

> 
>>> I'm a huge fan of open source, however, I'm also a huge fan of using
>>> the right tool for the right job.
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Then why didn't you use a library that creates *OpenOffice* spreadsheets
>> instead of one that creates *Excel* spreadsheets?? That would have been
>> the proper way to use OpenOffice. Your complaint would be like someone
>> complaining that Excel doesn't open QuattroPro spreadsheets as fast as
>> QuattroPro does.
> 
> Because the spec asked for Excel spreadsheets that could also be
> opened in OpenOffice.  Therefore .xls files are the answer.
>

So the OpenOffice people are supposed to be super-heroes of
the programming world to fulfill the expectations of someone
at your place of work who wrote a ludicrous spec?


>>> OpenOffice, as much as they'd like
>>> to claim, is not yet the right tool for heavy spreadsheet usage.
>> Sure it is. And many people use it for that every day. You just weren't
>> using it properly. That's your fault, not OpenOffice's.
> 
> OpenOffice was being used with one of the intentions it was designed
> for: to open, read, and manipulate Excel spreadsheets.  My only
> complaint is that it was so damn slow and inefficient.

Well, that's what freakin' happens when you're dealing
with file formats that are trade secrets, and have to
be reverse-engineered .... lots of code kludges get into
the file import filter, because the spec itself is most
likely kludgey (and if you want proof, check on the
debate about the misleadingly-named "openXML" kind-of-
but-not-really-a-spec which is nothing more than an
xml-ization of the Office internal formats.

It's clear as mud, with takes like <DoLikeWord95>,
with no explanation or definition of how Word95
supposedly did it.

> 
>>> OpenOffice is *NOT* Excel.
>> Exactly. :) And that's a good thing. I sure wouldn't want OpenOffice
>> to calculate 65535 as 100000, as Excel 2007 does:
>> <http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/09/24/2339203.shtml>
>> Better hope your Excel formulas don't calculate that. :p
> 
> If they do and a client points it out to us, well, I've already
> collated all the documentation necessary to say "we can't do anything
> about it." :)

We can't do anything about it until Microsoft stops keeping
secrets about how YOUR DATA is stored by their software.

> 
> I'm not looking to cause a religious war or flame thread here, I was
> just backing up Brian Hurley's link with real life experience. (
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=480 )

Your complaints are PRECISELY the argument against
secret file formats -- why do you find any of this
in the least bit surprising?

> 
> Clinton
> 





From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 22:31:12 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:31:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <200711182101.33501.brian@dangerbacon.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711182101.33501.brian@dangerbacon.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711181931v77d41745vf0a7bff5c05c9f26@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 18, 2007 9:01 PM, Brian <brian at dangerbacon.com> wrote:
> If they're all standard formulas, I wonder how other non-java-bloated
> alternatives would fare (e.g, gnumeric, koffice).

Or even Google Docs.


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 22:57:48 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:57:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <4740F46A.7000407@hotpop.com>
References: <945840.16895.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<3b00b3330711170658x5ea474d3p9e3a4dd666430125@mail.gmail.com>
	<200711171527.57267.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
	<f0e9fe590711171357p5a585fe8u8af99aea859d30d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711172007270.6053@banana.sluggo.net>
	<f0e9fe590711181521wc73838cl86d34e85536cb79c@mail.gmail.com>
	<4740F46A.7000407@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590711181957r2bec36cdv37d8bf30139ec207@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 18, 2007 9:26 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Your complaints are PRECISELY the argument against
> secret file formats -- why do you find any of this
> in the least bit surprising?

Why are we even debating?  We both agree on the fundamental points.
Clinton

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 19 08:38:28 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:38:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff. It
also has a unique look, simple but pleasing graphics. For that price, I think it's
well worth picking up. I got it for full price when it came out and I don't feel
cheated. As a bonus, it doesn't take up GB of space on disk; the environments are
fractal and the data files small.

 The Linux install is here: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/support/linux.html

 ...but here are a couple minor complications. First, this particular version
doesn't install cleanly; the distributor didn't package it the way the authors
intended. So you need a workaround:

 http://forums.introversion.co.uk/darwinia/viewtopic.php?t=3417&sid=1f9b8b36e8711f1384f5dbb0dff6a479

 Also, on my Ubuntu 7.06 system one of the shared libraries it comes with doesn't
play nice with the rest of the system, but I just renamed the file and the version
that came with Ubuntu works just fine. Can't remember which library offhand but
there's only about four, and if you get this problem the error message will include
the library name in it.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                (313) 227-2317

   "History never repeats itself, but it often rhymes." 
                    - Mark Twain
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From wolfger at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 09:18:22 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:18:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711190618w6127bc9xc9f46ca100568ad6@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff.

I played a free demo version of Darwinia once. It was indeed
"different". I think it's well worth $4, at any rate.

>  Also, on my Ubuntu 7.06 system one of the shared libraries it comes with doesn't
> play nice with the rest of the system, but I just renamed the file and the version
> that came with Ubuntu works just fine. Can't remember which library offhand but
> there's only about four, and if you get this problem the error message will include
> the library name in it.

Ubuntu 7.06? Was that Gutsy's Alpha release? ;-)
Yes, this is one of the bittersweet realities of Linux: too many
different ways of doing things makes it difficult for a vendor to
package software that works flawlessly everywhere. On the other hand,
you can at least fix it if something doesn't work, unlike certain
other proprietary systems where if it doesn't run, you're just out of
luck...


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 19 09:21:02 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:21:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <200711170904.46477.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <20071119142735.1F9B21412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Brian Hurley
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:05 AM
> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
> Cc: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
> 
> On Saturday 17 November 2007, Michael Rudas wrote:
> > LOL
> >
> > I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
> > perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by 
> > Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an 
> > anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans, 
> > spyware, and wasted computer power...
> >
> > "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed 
> on Windows  
> >Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much  
> >processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short 
> years ago  
> >(Office 2000)."
> > 
> ><http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-micro
> soft-taket
> >h-aw
> >ay.html>
> 
> I wonder how many X memory and processing power KDE or GNOME 
> system using Star/Open Office has increased since 2000. 
> Bloatware isn't a MS-only phenomenon.
> 
> --
> Brian Hurley
> Detroit Industrial Underground
> www.detroitindustrial.org
> 

	I'm taking a DBA course in which we are using Oracle 10g running on
a VMWare Player ran Windows Server 2003.

	The classroom is decked out with brand spanking new dual-core
workstations with 1GB of RAM, Windows Vista and all other other latest bells
and whistles. The default setup on these machines are pretty lean and thus
should run pretty mean.

	As a test for personal interest, I upgrade the HD on my laptop for
the space, tossed OpenSuSe 10.3 and VMWare Player and pulled up the VM
Windows 2003 Server. While hardly a rigorous scientific test, I can say that
the VM (on my single core 4+ year old laptop, also with 1GB of RAM) performs
roughly 3 times faster under OpenSuSe 10.3 than is does under Windows Vista
on a brand spanking new dual-core system. (Not that this should matter, both
the laptop and the workstation at the school are Dell systems.)

	Oracle 10g uses a number of Java programs for GUI access to the DBMS
and under OpenSuSe10.3, those open up within 30 seconds. Under the VM on
WinVista, they can take upwards of 3 minutes to launch.

	I am running KDE as my primary desktop and while I was also running
OpenOffice2.x while running the VM to cut/paste elements into the VM that
were needed for populating a table within the DB and also to answer the
provided questions for the lab work.

	Anyway, the sigficant difference in bloat between Microsoft products
and Open Source products has a great deal more to do with the underlying
development model than anything else.

	Open Source software isn't designed to force users into a corner by
tying everything together in a way that makes picking and choosing elements
to run difficult to impossible. Open Source software is very modular,
OpenOffice, for example, doesn't give a rat's behind what you are running it
on top of. It isn't looking for secret hooks in the file browser, it isn't
seeking special options specific to it buried within the kernel, it just
does it's job, which is to run as an office application suite.

	Microsoft software, as found in the "Findings of Fact" from the
trial that convicted them of abusing monopoly powers, is written with secret
hooks and undocumented elements in otherwise completely unrelated libraries
to tie all of their software together. This has added unnecssary complexity
to the software development process.

	As myself and many others have speculated, since the "Findings of
Fact" and prior to that documents existnece, this development model was
destined to bite Microsoft on the ass harder then anything. It appears, with
Windows Vista, that this is happening.

	Perhaps the only interesting thing to come out of the Vista
development process is that Microsoft is "seeing the light" and with their
next edition of Windows has been currently claiming to be following a
significantly more modular design model. From what I have seen, they are
even going so far as to claim that this development model is new and novel.
As if the entire history of the development of UNIX and Linux as well as
many other truly modular development models simply never existed.

	Sorry for rambling,
	Rob



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 09:30:50 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 06:30:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
Message-ID: <314824.64144.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Speaking of Linux Games My al time favorite I saw Decent 3  on line for sale for 11.00 for Linux.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:18:22 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4


On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
 wrote:
> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale
 at our local
> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for
 download, and runs
> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the
 usual stuff.

I played a free demo version of Darwinia once. It was indeed
"different". I think it's well worth $4, at any rate.

>  Also, on my Ubuntu 7.06 system one of the shared libraries it comes
 with doesn't
> play nice with the rest of the system, but I just renamed the file
 and the version
> that came with Ubuntu works just fine. Can't remember which library
 offhand but
> there's only about four, and if you get this problem the error
 message will include
> the library name in it.

Ubuntu 7.06? Was that Gutsy's Alpha release? ;-)
Yes, this is one of the bittersweet realities of Linux: too many
different ways of doing things makes it difficult for a vendor to
package software that works flawlessly everywhere. On the other hand,
you can at least fix it if something doesn't work, unlike certain
other proprietary systems where if it doesn't run, you're just out of
luck...


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






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Make Yahoo! your homepage.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
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From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 10:05:26 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:05:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a headline for you:

"90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
<http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>

Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.

It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
since sliced bread!!!"  Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
Death Watch"
<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>

~~ Mikey


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 10:26:21 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:26:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a Windows pc?

David 
 

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG <wftl-lug at salmar.com>; MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:05:26 AM
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


Here's a headline for you:

"90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
<http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>

Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.

It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
since sliced bread!!!"  Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
Death Watch"
<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>

~~ Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 19 10:30:48 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:30:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20071119153721.D8A851412E@impelind.com>

VNC

There's clients for both Windows and Linux as well as servers for both
Windows and Linux.

-Rob 

________________________________

	From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On
Behalf Of David Lane
	Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:26 AM
	To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
	Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
	
	
	Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from
a Windows pc?
	
	David 
	 
	
	
	----- Original Message ----
	From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
	To: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG <wftl-lug at salmar.com>;
MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
	Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:05:26 AM
	Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
	
	Here's a headline for you:
	
	"90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
	
<http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/
index.cfm?newsid=6258>
	
	Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this
is
	REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
	alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.
	
	It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
	every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
	since sliced bread!!!"  Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
	troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
	Death Watch"
	<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>
	
	~~ Mikey
	_______________________________________________
	mdlug mailing list
	mdlug at mdlug.org
	http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
	


________________________________

	Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile.
Try it now.
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51731/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_q
DKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ> 




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 19 13:06:31 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:06:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <20071119142735.1F9B21412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Anyway, the sigficant difference in bloat between Microsoft products
> and Open Source products has a great deal more to do with the 
> underlying development model than anything else.

 Exactly, and as you point out MS is finally realizing their development model
is unsustainable. When you're dealing with over 50 million lines of code (the
current conservative estimate for Vista) modularity is *vital* - humans simply
cannot manage that kind of codebase if it doesn't have clean lines of separation
based on functionality.

 Vista was *years* late, and they literally had to throw away their work and start
over in the middle of the process - with greatly reduced ambitions - just to
manage to ship *something*. And, as it turns out, it's not something anyone really
wants.

 Open-source software is almost universally modular, because that's the only
practical way for disparate groups of people to work on a large codebase. As a
bonus, it makes the whole system easier to think about and tends to localize
bugs, making them easier to find and fix.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                      (313) 227-2317

 [Y]ou notice he said "do not destroy oil wells" before "do not
  use weapons of mass destruction"? - Tom Tomorrow, on Bush's
                ultimatum to Saddam Hussein
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 19 13:08:22 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:08:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <4740F46A.7000407@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> Considering that even the  internal FORMAT of all office
> files is trade secret, and oftentimes, not even well
> documented within Microsoft itself, you expect a
> reverse-engineered implementation to be just as efficient
> why, exactly?

 I have to agree; it's not at all surprising that OpenOffice isn't as
efficient handling MS formats as MS products are. That said, the trajectory,
as even the cited links points out, is very much in favor of OO long term.
It's improving faster than Office is.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 If you get an email that says, "FORWARD THIS IMMEDIATELY TO ALL
 YOUR FRIENDS, *RIGHT NOW*!", don't. It's a hoax, I guarantee it.
                             - Me
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 19 13:25:56 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:25:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael Rudas

> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
> alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.

 Yeah, MS painted themselves into a corner here. Vista is *shockingly* hungry for
resources, and doesn't really offer any substantial advantages over the previous
version, XP. This holds for *both* of Windows' main markets, 'office workers' and
'games'. I don't recall OEM's ever before demanding the ability to ship the old
version of Windows (i.e. XP) instead of the new one. (They can't count on Moore's
Law to help them too much, either... PC specs have hit a level where even a cheap
PC has the capacity to do the kinds of things most people want PCs to do. That
means the price for Windows is a significant, noticeable part of the total price.)

 MS has sunk a lot of money into Vista, and bet a lot of their future technology
and marketing on it. If it doesn't take hold, a lot of their other strategies (e.g.
media PCs and such) become irrelevant. They can't afford to put too much effort into
XP support lest it steal oxygen from Vista takeup... and Vista takeup is already
wheezing badly. But if they don't support XP, particularly security-wise, it will
drive people away from XP. And since they don't want Vista, they will look at other
alternatives... which are quite mature and capable of handling the needs of the vast
majority of users.

 So... it'll be interesting. Expect MS to fast-track the next version, but their
development culture and codebase just is not suited to 'fast' development. They're
targeting 2009 I hear, but expect 2010 at *absolute minimum*, and that's only if
they dump features.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 13:33:45 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:33:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <87944.49817.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is a good time to push Linux.  

Is there a "Linux in Business Conference" in the Detroit area?

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: "Ingles, Raymond" <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 1:25:56 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


> From: Michael Rudas

> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this
 is
> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
> alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.

 Yeah, MS painted themselves into a corner here. Vista is *shockingly*
 hungry for
resources, and doesn't really offer any substantial advantages over the
 previous
version, XP. This holds for *both* of Windows' main markets, 'office
 workers' and
'games'. I don't recall OEM's ever before demanding the ability to ship
 the old
version of Windows (i.e. XP) instead of the new one. (They can't count
 on Moore's
Law to help them too much, either... PC specs have hit a level where
 even a cheap
PC has the capacity to do the kinds of things most people want PCs to
 do. That
means the price for Windows is a significant, noticeable part of the
 total price.)

 MS has sunk a lot of money into Vista, and bet a lot of their future
 technology
and marketing on it. If it doesn't take hold, a lot of their other
 strategies (e.g.
media PCs and such) become irrelevant. They can't afford to put too
 much effort into
XP support lest it steal oxygen from Vista takeup... and Vista takeup
 is already
wheezing badly. But if they don't support XP, particularly
 security-wise, it will
drive people away from XP. And since they don't want Vista, they will
 look at other
alternatives... which are quite mature and capable of handling the
 needs of the vast
majority of users.

 So... it'll be interesting. Expect MS to fast-track the next version,
 but their
development culture and codebase just is not suited to 'fast'
 development. They're
targeting 2009 I hear, but expect 2010 at *absolute minimum*, and
 that's only if
they dump features.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only.
 It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the
 named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or
 disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify
 us immediately and then destroy it.
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From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 14:56:57 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:56:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Here's a headline for you:
>
> "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
> <http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>
>
> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
> alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.
>
> It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
> every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
> since sliced bread!!!"  

Obviously sliced bread isn't that good if that is indeed the case.



> Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
> troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
> Death Watch"
> <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>
>   

I simply seriously object to having something I do not want shoved down
my throat.  I can't buy a new laptop for example without paying the
Vista Tax.  I want a new laptop and really need one.  But there is that
Vista tax and it really sticks in my craw.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 15:00:10 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:00:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <4741EB4A.3050200@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Open-source software is almost universally modular, because that's the only
> practical way for disparate groups of people to work on a large codebase. As a
> bonus, it makes the whole system easier to think about and tends to localize
> bugs, making them easier to find and fix.
>   

Software as Lego.  Use the right bricks that you need for the thing you
want.  Don't use the bricks you don't need.  Each brick is simple.  Many
simple bricks makes for a complex thing that is still made of simple
parts that can be dealt with.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 14:56:25 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:56:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
In-Reply-To: <20071119142735.1F9B21412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071119142735.1F9B21412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <4741EA69.5050100@hotpop.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
>> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Brian Hurley
>> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:05 AM
>> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
>> Cc: linux-user at egr.msu.edu; The WFTL LUG
>> Subject: Re: [mdlug] What Intel Giveth, Microsoft Taketh Away
>>
>> On Saturday 17 November 2007, Michael Rudas wrote:
>>> LOL
>>>
>>> I mention this kind of thing on a Linux list because most peoples'
>>> perceptions of what a computer IS are so heavily influence by 
>>> Microsoft software, so it impacts us all -- and MS has become an 
>>> anchor, dragging all computer users to the briny depths of Trojans, 
>>> spyware, and wasted computer power...
>>>
>>> "Case in point: Microsoft Office 2007 which, when deployed 
>> on Windows  
>>> Vista, consumes over 12x as much memory and nearly 3x as much  
>>> processing power as the version that graced PCs just 7 short 
>> years ago  
>>> (Office 2000)."
>>>
>>> <http://exo-blog.blogspot.com/2007/09/what-intel-giveth-micro
>> soft-taket
>>> h-aw
>>> ay.html>
>> I wonder how many X memory and processing power KDE or GNOME 
>> system using Star/Open Office has increased since 2000. 
>> Bloatware isn't a MS-only phenomenon.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Hurley
>> Detroit Industrial Underground
>> www.detroitindustrial.org
>>
> 
> 	I'm taking a DBA course in which we are using Oracle 10g running on
> a VMWare Player ran Windows Server 2003.
> 
> 	The classroom is decked out with brand spanking new dual-core
> workstations with 1GB of RAM, Windows Vista and all other other latest bells
> and whistles. The default setup on these machines are pretty lean and thus
> should run pretty mean.
> 
> 	As a test for personal interest, I upgrade the HD on my laptop for
> the space, tossed OpenSuSe 10.3 and VMWare Player and pulled up the VM
> Windows 2003 Server. While hardly a rigorous scientific test, I can say that
> the VM (on my single core 4+ year old laptop, also with 1GB of RAM) performs
> roughly 3 times faster under OpenSuSe 10.3 than is does under Windows Vista
> on a brand spanking new dual-core system. (Not that this should matter, both
> the laptop and the workstation at the school are Dell systems.)
> 
> 	Oracle 10g uses a number of Java programs for GUI access to the DBMS
> and under OpenSuSe10.3, those open up within 30 seconds. Under the VM on
> WinVista, they can take upwards of 3 minutes to launch.
> 
> 	I am running KDE as my primary desktop and while I was also running
> OpenOffice2.x while running the VM to cut/paste elements into the VM that
> were needed for populating a table within the DB and also to answer the
> provided questions for the lab work.
> 
> 	Anyway, the sigficant difference in bloat between Microsoft products
> and Open Source products has a great deal more to do with the underlying
> development model than anything else.
> 
> 	Open Source software isn't designed to force users into a corner by
> tying everything together in a way that makes picking and choosing elements
> to run difficult to impossible. Open Source software is very modular,
> OpenOffice, for example, doesn't give a rat's behind what you are running it
> on top of. It isn't looking for secret hooks in the file browser, it isn't
> seeking special options specific to it buried within the kernel, it just
> does it's job, which is to run as an office application suite.
> 
> 	Microsoft software, as found in the "Findings of Fact" from the
> trial that convicted them of abusing monopoly powers, is written with secret
> hooks and undocumented elements in otherwise completely unrelated libraries
> to tie all of their software together. This has added unnecssary complexity
> to the software development process.
> 
> 	As myself and many others have speculated, since the "Findings of
> Fact" and prior to that documents existnece, this development model was
> destined to bite Microsoft on the ass harder then anything. It appears, with
> Windows Vista, that this is happening.
> 
> 	Perhaps the only interesting thing to come out of the Vista
> development process is that Microsoft is "seeing the light" and with their
> next edition of Windows has been currently claiming to be following a
> significantly more modular design model. From what I have seen, they are
> even going so far as to claim that this development model is new and novel.
> As if the entire history of the development of UNIX and Linux as well as
> many other truly modular development models simply never existed.

Well, of course.  At Microsoft's marketing offices, the
ONLY computing which has ever existed is the MS platforms.

On a somewhat related note, MS never claims that they are
selling the most powerful OS -- **ONLY** that they are
selling the most powerful version of Windows.  Same for
all of their other products.


> 
> 	Sorry for rambling,
> 	Rob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 14:59:43 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:59:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
References: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4741EB2F.7020804@hotpop.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Michael Rudas wrote:
>> Here's a headline for you:
>>
>> "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
>> <http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>
>>
>> Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very least this is
>> REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing to look at
>> alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.
>>
>> It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in
>> every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing
>> since sliced bread!!!"  
> 
> Obviously sliced bread isn't that good if that is indeed the case.
> 
> 
> 
>> Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
>> troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista
>> Death Watch"
>> <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>
>>   
> 
> I simply seriously object to having something I do not want shoved down
> my throat.  I can't buy a new laptop for example without paying the
> Vista Tax.  I want a new laptop and really need one.  But there is that
> Vista tax and it really sticks in my craw.

http://www.google.com/linux  and search for laptop






From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 15:06:30 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:06:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <4741ECC6.401@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Yeah, MS painted themselves into a corner here. Vista is *shockingly* hungry for
> resources, and doesn't really offer any substantial advantages over the previous
> version, XP.


Hoorah for us.  I got to watch a salesman try to "sell Vista" when he
knew he was talking to someone that knew better.  Squirm, squirm.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 19 15:05:15 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:05:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20071119201149.7F3851412E@impelind.com>

What about the company "Emperor Linux" or something.

They advertise in one of the Linux rags. They sell laptops with Linux
pre-installed. They might have some that lack the "Vista tax".

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Garry Stahl
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 2:57 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
> 
> Michael Rudas wrote:
> > Here's a headline for you:
> >
> > "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
> > 
> <http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications
> > /news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>
> >
> > Even if this is off by a substantial amount, at the very 
> least this is 
> > REALLY embarrassing to MS.  The number of IT pros willing 
> to look at 
> > alternatives (including Linux) is heartening.
> >
> > It certainly puts the lie to the MS trolls that seem to pop up in 
> > every thread discussing WinVista to say, "It's the greatest thing 
> > since sliced bread!!!"
> 
> Obviously sliced bread isn't that good if that is indeed the case.
> 
> 
> 
> > Maybe John Dvorak (usually the ultimate
> > troll-columnist) is onto something when he talks about "The Vista 
> > Death Watch"
> > <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209837,00.asp>
> >   
> 
> I simply seriously object to having something I do not want 
> shoved down my throat.  I can't buy a new laptop for example 
> without paying the Vista Tax.  I want a new laptop and really 
> need one.  But there is that Vista tax and it really sticks 
> in my craw.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Star Trek mort. 
> Viva la Star Trek admiraetur The Olde Phoenix Inn 
> Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 15:13:55 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Okay, is there any one out there willing to help put on a "Linux/Open Source conference"?

I am currently commuting from Long Island NY to Detroit, not much time. Buy I'm willing to squeeze in some time for something that will help Detroit area business owners be more cost effective and flexible.  

And this Vista thing is a great marketing tool. :)

David 



----- Original Message ----
From: Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 3:06:30 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Yeah, MS painted themselves into a corner here. Vista is
 *shockingly* hungry for
> resources, and doesn't really offer any substantial advantages over
 the previous
> version, XP.


Hoorah for us.  I got to watch a salesman try to "sell Vista" when he
knew he was talking to someone that knew better.  Squirm, squirm.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
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From wolfger at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 17:42:17 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:42:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon: liaisons wanted
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711191442w33bf71ddr360db793eed1d18d@mail.gmail.com>

Penguicon is looking for people to act as liaison for Jono Bacon and
Benjamin Mako Hill. Liaison description is as follows. Contact
molly.deblanc at gmail.com if you're interested.

A liaison is required to accompany their guest to all events at which
the guest is supposed to be at, ensuring their presence. The liaison
is also supposed to make sure that their GoH gets three meals a day
(or two and a snack or however they eat. Make sure they have a
substantial enough caloric intake to not pass out.) Liaisons also run
errands for their GoHs. This last one is usually not too big of a
commitment, maybe a kinkos or drug store run.

Ideally, a liaison will also run transport for their GoH, picking them
up and dropping them off. If they can't do it, that's fine, I'll be
involved in this process and I have a few people willing to do
transport runs. If Liaison are also willing, I'll be arranging for
their hotel rooms to be next to their Guest's. Also, if I have the
cash for it, I'll be picking up ribbons that say "Liaison," "Minion,"
"Lackey," "Handler," or maybe 'CowX," to run with my 'wrangler/cowboy'
theme, with X being a variable standing for something like hand, boy,
girl, etc.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 18:00:12 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:00:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>


> Okay, is there any one out there willing to help put on a "Linux/Open
> Source conference"?

There is one in Columbus, Ohio during September every year.

http://www.ohiolinux.org

> I am currently commuting from Long Island NY to Detroit, not much
> time. Buy I'm willing to squeeze in some time for something that will
> help Detroit area business owners be more cost effective and 
> flexible.  

If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 18:04:42 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:04:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711191504h205d4a35sfaf0d563df21f0f4@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 10:26 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a
> Windows pc?

Xming but note that the SourceForge version is the only truly free
version.  The version on the author's site has restrictions.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xming


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 18:09:29 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:09:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff. It
> also has a unique look, simple but pleasing graphics. For that price, I think it's
> well worth picking up. I got it for full price when it came out and I don't feel
> cheated. As a bonus, it doesn't take up GB of space on disk; the environments are
> fractal and the data files small.
>
>  The Linux install is here: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/support/linux.html


The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?

-Joseph


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 18:28:04 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:28:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.

Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
adding complexity".


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 19:16:31 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:16:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>


> Bottom line is what they care about, Techies are always poor
> sales-people. Even if it is the best thing out there, what the
> resources ever it is.  But New business owners are a different story
> they have no infrastructure to migrate.  
> And NO I do not want to waste my time on people who are not even open
> to listening to sound options. 
> I know first hand that you have to have support from the top in such
> issues.  And at that level Dollars and Cents have the final say.  

No, they don't.  Availability of support, documentation, and talent, as
well as durability of the vendor.

> That is why Microsoft uses FUD.  Microsoft has the resources to fluid
> the market with what ever that want.  
> And at the end of the day meeting the mission in a cost effective
> manner is the best business plan.

Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.

And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
for the pain/expense of Vista.  While techy types get worked up about,
often obscure, security issues most businesses, especially small
business (all small businesses?) just do-not-care.  They don't even
force password changes or strong passwords [I've *never* been in a shop
of less than 50 employees that even had a security policy].  A sane
configuration of XP is actually pretty secure, certainly enough for the
every-man to use.  And it is essentially free [despite all that blather
too - the cost of a desktop machine, M$ tax or no, puts it in the
disposable expense column.  People often pay more for their desk chair].

<aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely undocumented.  GDM
is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your account in 14
days if you don't change your password.... nope.  You can view/edit file
ACLs from nautilus... nope.  Firefox will work with NTLM or Kerberos
authentication for single sign-on to the proxy and/or intranet.... nope.
I could go one.  Despite all the rah-rag about security the support for
good security practices on LINUX sucks.</aside>

> Okay since I don't see any hands: 
> What about a YouTube short like the MAC PC  but as a Linux  PC
> commercial?

Novell already made several;  they are quite good as such things go.
You can download them from at least Novell's site.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 20:21:53 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:21:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192019520.2150@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-19, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
> On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
>> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.
>
> Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
> solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
> energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
> licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
> adding complexity".

And don't forget the standard "booze and hookers" angle.
Corporate execs love that "solution".

Michael


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Mon Nov 19 20:23:44 2007
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:23:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <47423720.6000302@arb.net>


>Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
>most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
>software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
>

Errrr, I take it you have never actually see a M$ Enterprise support 
agreement and the eight figure ransom big business pays for the real 
cost of these "cheep" desktops. If they don't pay, they risk the very 
real probability that malware will take down their business. Then, 
there's the cheeper cost of AV and infection mitigation for the user 
induced events.

AND, if they have an envirornment where a vedor sells them a WIN OS 
embeded device (MF copier, manufacturing machinery, appliance, etc) they 
are at real mercy of the desktop devicing causing interruption of their 
core business when the cheep desktops cause faults - maybe infections - 
of these "turn key" opperations.  Most of these embeded devices never 
get patched and the vendor usually tells the client they can't touch the 
OS. I have seen all of this. It is costing business multi-billions to 
mitigate the risks and clean up after this so call "cheep OS". 

I thought eveyone knows M$ does not make the bulk of their $$$ from 
selling the actual software anymore....

-dave


From danno at umich.edu  Mon Nov 19 21:22:17 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:22:17 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071120022217.GA54447@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 06:09:29PM -0500, Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?

depends on whether the defender is one of the darwinians.

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Nov 19 21:26:15 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:26:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>

David Lane wrote:
> 
> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a
> Windows pc?
> 
> David

Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
Linux running in a VMware player session.

It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
in on Vista.

I'm not sure what facilities cygwin provides but if you just need a
local X environment for the display of remote applications this seems
like a good way to go.

Raymond McLaughlin


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 22:17:29 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:17:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <47423720.6000302@arb.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
Message-ID: <1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>

> >Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
> >most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
> >software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
> Errrr, I take it you have never actually see a M$ Enterprise support 
> agreement and the eight figure ransom big business pays for the real 
> cost of these "cheep" desktops.

Are we talking about enterprises or small/medium businesses?  Seems to
me the mile post in these kind of debates gets switched back and forth
allot.  Enterprises just don't care,  it isn't that expensive relative
to other things.  No small/medium business I've ever encountered has an
M$ support agreement.

> If they don't pay, they risk the very 
> real probability that malware will take down their business. 

Bogus.  I admin a network of ~250 Windows 2000 & XP workstations.  No
support agreement.  The threat of malware is drasitically overstated by
fear mongers and alarmists,  the issue is actually quite easily to deal
with using well-known techniques.  Openness to Open Source solutions
only makes it even easier.  In all the years I've been an admin there
has been one lonely incident of malware disrupting (not shutting down)
normal business and the issue was resolved within hours.
<aside>Fortunately for us our competition was down for a couple of
days. :)</aside>

> Then, there's the cheeper cost of AV and infection mitigation for the user 
> induced events.

Well, the cost of our AV protection solution... $0.00.

> AND, if they have an envirornment where a vedor sells them a WIN OS 
> embeded device (MF copier, manufacturing machinery, appliance, etc) they 
> are at real mercy of the desktop devicing causing interruption of their 
> core business when the cheep desktops cause faults 

Eh?  This doesn't even make sense.  If you have any kind of embedded
device / appliance you are always 110% at the mercy of the vendor.
Nothing changes that.  Fortunately my experience is that most embedded
devices are far too stupid / limited / sealed to respond to malware in
anyway (you're lucky if most "appliances" even manage to do what they
were advertised to do).

> - maybe infections - 
> of these "turn key" opperations.  Most of these embeded devices never 
> get patched and the vendor usually tells the client they can't touch the

Sure, and what does this have to do with Windows vs. LINUX desktops?
The embedded devices are just there - nothing anyone can do about the
bloody things. (I have well over two dozen hosts running NT embedded,
real crap).

> OS. I have seen all of this. It is costing business multi-billions to 
> mitigate the risks and clean up after this so call "cheep OS". 

And I've seen those numbers;  same thing with SPAM... it is costing some
unholy amount of money.  I don't buy it.  If this is true then those
networks are being administered poorly or someone is quite happy to just
fork over buckets of money for someone else to deal with the problem (a
legitimate business solution in some cases [although, I suspect, usually
not]).

> I thought eveyone knows M$ does not make the bulk of their $$$ from 
> selling the actual software anymore....

So?  This is true of IBM, HP, Sun, etc... hardware & software is just a
platform.  The solution is valuable part, so of course that is where the
profit is.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 23:04:31 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:04:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711192004w3aede6f2g67e51d1b91f00fad@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 10:17 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> Are we talking about enterprises or small/medium businesses?  Seems to
> me the mile post in these kind of debates gets switched back and forth
> allot.  Enterprises just don't care,  it isn't that expensive relative
> to other things.  No small/medium business I've ever encountered has an
> M$ support agreement.

It depends on type of business, their reliance on IT, and budget.
Some auto companies still standardize on Win2K even though it was EOL
several years ago.  Many small businesses rely on only one or two apps
(often Quickbooks) and as long as they have a backup of the data a
malware problem can be fixed with a restore CD and a reinstall of the
app.  They are conditioned that malware is normal, just like cars have
flat tires occasionally.

> Bogus.  I admin a network of ~250 Windows 2000 & XP workstations.  No
> support agreement.  The threat of malware is drasitically overstated by
> fear mongers and alarmists,  the issue is actually quite easily to deal
> with using well-known techniques.

It depends on your level of control and the security concerns of the
company management.  If the management has no real clue about security
then their primary requirement is to keep accounting functioning.  If
they are concerned about trade secret theft then entire hardware
lock-down and encryption is required.

The best-laid security plans of a network admin are easily thwarted by
a clueless superior that insists that they need full read/write access
to everything on the network.

In my experience, purely external problems are limited to wireless
intrusions or physical theft.  Everything else has an internal
component and users are almost always the link.

> Well, the cost of our AV protection solution... $0.00.

In a thin-client environment malware is easy to control.  In a typical
fat-client situation the users (especially managers and developers)
often demand local control and install whatever they want.  If
upper-management doesn't allow you full authority over them then
you're stuck with the problem.  Understaffed IT departments don't help
either.

> Eh?  This doesn't even make sense.  If you have any kind of embedded
> device / appliance you are always 110% at the mercy of the vendor.
> Nothing changes that.  Fortunately my experience is that most embedded
> devices are far too stupid / limited / sealed to respond to malware in
> anyway (you're lucky if most "appliances" even manage to do what they
> were advertised to do).

Depends on the device.  A lot of them use Linux and some can be
updated.  HP JetDirect devices have had security issues and updates
can be easily installed.

> Sure, and what does this have to do with Windows vs. LINUX desktops?
> The embedded devices are just there - nothing anyone can do about the
> bloody things. (I have well over two dozen hosts running NT embedded,
> real crap).

Security practices for embedded devices is no different than any other
platform.  Restrict access to those who need it.  If it's a concern
then install a SPI firewall between it and the network.

> And I've seen those numbers;  same thing with SPAM... it is costing some
> unholy amount of money.  I don't buy it.  If this is true then those
> networks are being administered poorly or someone is quite happy to just
> fork over buckets of money for someone else to deal with the problem (a
> legitimate business solution in some cases [although, I suspect, usually
> not]).

The cost depends on the environment but you have to check who is
reporting the numbers.

> So?  This is true of IBM, HP, Sun, etc... hardware & software is just a
> platform.  The solution is valuable part, so of course that is where the
> profit is.

Does Windows Live OneCare count?


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 19 23:07:52 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:07:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon: liaisons wanted
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330711191442w33bf71ddr360db793eed1d18d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330711191442w33bf71ddr360db793eed1d18d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192253470.3293@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-19, Monsieur Wolfger a ecrit:
> Penguicon is looking for people to act as liaison for Jono Bacon and
> Benjamin Mako Hill.

o_O

> The liaison
> is also supposed to make sure that their GoH gets three meals a day
> (or two and a snack or however they eat. Make sure they have a
> substantial enough caloric intake to not pass out.)

Hmm, if these guys are the usual Linux fatsos then keeping their
expansive bellies full could cost quite a bit. :)

> Liaisons also run
> errands for their GoHs. This last one is usually not too big of a
> commitment, maybe a kinkos or drug store run.

Let's hope that "store" part of the sentence stays in there. :)
You know how those crazy Linux hippies are!

> If Liaison are also willing, I'll be arranging for
> their hotel rooms to be next to their Guest's. Also, if I have the
> cash for it, I'll be picking up ribbons that say "Liaison," "Minion,"
> "Lackey," "Handler," or maybe 'CowX," to run with my 'wrangler/cowboy'
> theme, with X being a variable standing for something like hand, boy,
> girl, etc.

Why is this sounding more and more like an escort service?... :)

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 23:32:39 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:32:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] I'net monitor & restrict w/o proxy?
In-Reply-To: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <245279.33021.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711192032m2ad1c143ja99cbd8ee72a887@mail.gmail.com>

I just found this article about blocking with iptables you might find useful:
http://www.linux.com/feature/121374

There is also this Wikipedia list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Content_Control_Software


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Nov 20 00:48:41 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 00:48:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711200039440.5173@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-19, Monsieur Michael Rudas a ecrit:
> "90% of IT Professionals Don't Want Vista"
> <http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258>

I think this page pretty much sums up the whole discussion:

http://lolcatgenerator.com/lolcat/339/

Michael


From wolfger at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 05:13:55 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:13:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Penguicon: liaisons wanted
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192253470.3293@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <3b00b3330711191442w33bf71ddr360db793eed1d18d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192253470.3293@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711200213x6a6fbaa2q9e167e7ef7c059d9@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 11:07 PM, Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> > The liaison
> > is also supposed to make sure that their GoH gets three meals a day
> > (or two and a snack or however they eat. Make sure they have a
> > substantial enough caloric intake to not pass out.)
>
> Hmm, if these guys are the usual Linux fatsos then keeping their
> expansive bellies full could cost quite a bit. :)

Uh.... Nothing particularly flabby about either of these gents. Also,
you aren't expected to *pay* for their food. Just make like a Polish
grandma and say "Eat! Eat!" :-D
There will be free food in the con suite. I would argue that the free
beer and free pop also count as calories. ;-)

> Why is this sounding more and more like an escort service?... :)

I think it's just where your mind is at. It sounded to me an awful lot
like babysitting. But you can be their "beck and call girl" if you
like ;-)

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Tue Nov 20 08:51:49 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:51:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> David Lane wrote:
>> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a
>> Windows pc?
>
> Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
> applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
> have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
> Linux running in a VMware player session.
>
> It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
> this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
> is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
> in on Vista.

Yes, I do this all the time with servers at work.  If I'm on a
Linux workstation, I use ssh to create a tunnel and VNCviewer for
the remote connection.

For Windows (which was the original question) you can do the same
thing.  Use putty to set up an ssh tunnel, and then use VNCviewer
for the remoter connection.

If you need more details about setting up the tunnel or making
the connection, let me know (or do a Google search).

c




From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 10:10:26 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:10:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux. And I'm about to implement web, data, and email servers.

So yes  Full Remotes for both from both.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:26:15 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


David Lane wrote:
> 
> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from
 a
> Windows pc?
> 
> David

Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
Linux running in a VMware player session.

It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
in on Vista.

I'm not sure what facilities cygwin provides but if you just need a
local X environment for the display of remote applications this seems
like a good way to go.

Raymond McLaughlin
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you 
with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 10:32:37 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:32:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
Message-ID: <107924.2372.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My hope with every one else on the list is that Linux continues to expand.

When I loaded OpenSUSE 10.3 it had something from HP that helped me with printing. and that is something that I struggled with.

Overall things are better with OpenSUSE 10.3.

David 




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better pen pal. 
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.  http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
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From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Tue Nov 20 10:39:40 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:39:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
Message-ID: <16761498.1195573181064.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Could you elaborate? What are "something from HP" and "something that I struggled with"? 

-----Original Message-----
>From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Nov 20, 2007 10:32 AM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
>
>My hope with every one else on the list is that Linux continues to expand.
>
>When I loaded OpenSUSE 10.3 it had something from HP that helped me with printing. and that is something that I struggled with.
>
>Overall things are better with OpenSUSE 10.3.
>
>David 
>
>
>
>
>      ____________________________________________________________________________________
>Be a better pen pal. 
>Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.  http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 10:54:30 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:54:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
In-Reply-To: <16761498.1195573181064.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20071120160105.EF4C31412E@impelind.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of R. Kannan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:40 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
> 
> Could you elaborate? What are "something from HP" and 
> "something that I struggled with"? 
> 

	Something from HP would probably be the HP Driver Configuration
applet that ships as part of OpenSuSe 10.3.

	Something struggled with is probably referring to getting a certain
printer to operate using CUPS and an open source driver?

	-Rob



From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Nov 20 10:48:38 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:48:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>

Carl T. Miller wrote:
> Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
>> David Lane wrote:
>>> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a
>>> Windows pc?
>> Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
>> applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
>> have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
>> Linux running in a VMware player session.
>>
>> It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
>> this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
>> is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
>> in on Vista.
> 
> Yes, I do this all the time with servers at work.  If I'm on a
> Linux workstation, I use ssh to create a tunnel and VNCviewer for
> the remote connection.
> 
> For Windows (which was the original question) you can do the same
> thing.  Use putty to set up an ssh tunnel, and then use VNCviewer
> for the remoter connection.
> 
> If you need more details about setting up the tunnel or making
> the connection, let me know (or do a Google search).
> 
> c

Right, VNC is great for forwarding a whole desktop. For forwarding a
single app (i.e. less band width required) Putty won't do it to windows,
no local X display. I floated the idea of a small footprint Linux in a
virtual machine to provide a local x display. What do you suggest?

Ray


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 11:09:25 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:09:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
Message-ID: <796057.67731.qm@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes that Printing and wireless note book cards are my biggest problems.

David 


----- Original Message ----
From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
To: R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com>; MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:54:30 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner




> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of R. Kannan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:40 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Linux Turning the corner
> 
> Could you elaborate? What are "something from HP" and 
> "something that I struggled with"? 
> 

    Something from HP would probably be the HP Driver Configuration
applet that ships as part of OpenSuSe 10.3.

    Something struggled with is probably referring to getting a certain
printer to operate using CUPS and an open source driver?

    -Rob

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From wolfger at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 11:32:05 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:32:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711200832k6dda64f9wd95eba3309f2d640@mail.gmail.com>

Pet peeve:

On Nov 20, 2007 10:10 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux.

You are running Linux on something other than a PC (Personal
Computer)? What OS is your PC running?


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Tue Nov 20 11:34:49 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:34:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
	<474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Right, VNC is great for forwarding a whole desktop. For forwarding a
> single app (i.e. less band width required) Putty won't do it to windows,
> no local X display. I floated the idea of a small footprint Linux in a
> virtual machine to provide a local x display. What do you suggest?

I missed the part about the virtual machine.  You're right that
there is no free and easy answer that does everything, as far as
I know.

It's a lot easier to use putty and the Windows version of VNCviewer,
although it does mean you'll get the entire desktop.  If bandwidth
is a concern, I believe that VNC can be configured to use less data
for screen updates than what x can.  Also I think it is possible to
use compression in the ssh tunnel to improve really slow connections.

Is it worth the extra requirements to set up a virtual environment,
create a virtual machine, install an entire OS, and then run a single
app inside a window inside the virtual machine?  It depends on what
you're doing.  However, if I did want to run a single app in its own
window, I wouldn't want a virtual machine.  I would look into getting
a good x-server for Windows.  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why
I like the putty/vnc connection at the price of getting a full desktop.

Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that
only one application runs and the connection is dropped when the app-
lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such a desktop.

c




From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 11:50:54 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:50:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <909369.1854.qm@web37912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Just Intel and AMD based pc's.  

I'm running XP and OpenSUSE 10.3. I have to up grade that Last linux to  OpenSUSE 10.3.

I will flip an older Gateway to run IP Cop.

I run Apache, develop in C++ & PHP and use MySQL, all portable across Windows and Linux and others.  Now if in the next few years I have to look at saleability that is a very good place to be in.  



----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:32:05 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


Pet peeve:

On Nov 20, 2007 10:10 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux.

You are running Linux on something other than a PC (Personal
Computer)? What OS is your PC running?


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
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From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 12:09:33 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:09:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <494589.50458.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

That is the value of Linux, extending the performance of low cost resources.  

I am very confident that the duo 6600 running suse, will meet my needs. I also develop in C++, that will yield performance.  There are a lot operations that run in an interpreted environment that kills and gains in performance.  

Poor performance cost so much in so many ways.

David 



----- Original Message ----
From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:32:05 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


Pet peeve:

On Nov 20, 2007 10:10 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux.

You are running Linux on something other than a PC (Personal
Computer)? What OS is your PC running?


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
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From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Nov 20 12:12:11 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:12:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>	<474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
	<20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <4743156B.7090008@ameritech.net>

Carl T. Miller wrote:

> Is it worth the extra requirements to set up a virtual environment,
> create a virtual machine, install an entire OS, and then run a single
> app inside a window inside the virtual machine?

I take this as a rhetorical question. I suppose the entertainment value
of making it work doesn't count in most cases.

> It depends on what you're doing.

It would also depend on if you already have VMware or similar already
available. That's really most of the work. If you have that DSL may be
"an entire OS" but it is really light weight, and could be stripped down
even more. It wouldn't surprise me if there were VMware VMs built just
for this purpose.

> However, if I did want to run a single app in its own
> window, I wouldn't want a virtual machine.  I would look into getting
> a good x-server for Windows.

Right, but...

>  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why
> I like the putty/vnc connection at the price of getting a full desktop.

Which brings us full circle. VMware Player/server are free to use and so
is Damn Small Linux.

> Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that
> only one application runs and the connection is dropped when the app-
> lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such a desktop.

Right. Of course It only needs to be setup once, then the VMs could be
distributed freely.

Hmmm. Sounds like an interesting project....

> c



From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 12:36:43 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:36:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4743156B.7090008@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20071120174319.7312514142@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Raymond McLaughlin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:12 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
> 
> 
> >  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why I like the putty/vnc 
> > connection at the price of getting a full desktop.
> 
> Which brings us full circle. VMware Player/server are free to 
> use and so is Damn Small Linux.
> 
> > Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that 
> > only one application runs and the connection is dropped 
> when the app- 
> > lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such 
> a desktop.
> 
> Right. Of course It only needs to be setup once, then the VMs 
> could be distributed freely.
> 
> Hmmm. Sounds like an interesting project....
> 

	Just download VMWare Player and then look through their list of
freely available already setup and ready to go VMs that could do that... I
believe that there is already a Damn Small Linux VM image ready to go,
amongst other Linux Distros.

	Although, I must say that the guest OS in VMWare player actually
runs significantly faster/better while VMWare Player is running on top of
Linux, as opposed to Windows(at least Windows Vista).

	-Rob



From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Tue Nov 20 13:03:40 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:03:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
Message-ID: <27148540.1195581820532.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

LOL. Looks like the sarcasm in your post wen unnoticed.

I too hate it when people call Windows (the OS) as PC (the hardware). Like the Apple MAC vs PC commercials.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 20, 2007 11:32 AM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
>
>Pet peeve:
>
>On Nov 20, 2007 10:10 AM, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux.
>
>You are running Linux on something other than a PC (Personal
>Computer)? What OS is your PC running?
>
>
>-- 
>Wolfger
>http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
>AOL IM: wolf4coyot
>Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
>Ekiga: wolfger
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Tue Nov 20 14:00:01 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:00:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4743156B.7090008@ameritech.net>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>	<474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
	<20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
	<4743156B.7090008@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <4555.216.144.215.245.1195585201.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Carl T. Miller wrote:
>> Is it worth the extra requirements to set up a virtual environment,
>> create a virtual machine, install an entire OS, and then run a single
>> app inside a window inside the virtual machine?
>
> I take this as a rhetorical question. I suppose the entertainment value
> of making it work doesn't count in most cases.

Yes, although I generally believe that simplicity is good, and
an app with a tunnel is simpler than an app with a tunnel in
an OS in a virtual machine.

And, yes, the entertainment value counts for bonus points!

>>  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why
>> I like the putty/vnc connection at the price of getting a full desktop.
>
> Which brings us full circle. VMware Player/server are free to use and so
> is Damn Small Linux.

Exactly!  We both agree there's a merry-go-round that's gone
haywire.  VNCserver with putty and VMware player, DSL and X
are both viable options to get off the merry-go-round without
spending much money.

>> Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that
>> only one application runs and the connection is dropped when the app-
>> lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such a desktop.
>
> Right. Of course It only needs to be setup once, then the VMs could be
> distributed freely.
>
> Hmmm. Sounds like an interesting project....

Definitely.  It would be worth doing if only for the entertainment
value.  And I know that VMware would add it to their website that
has the pre-built vmware guests.

c




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Nov 20 14:12:36 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:12:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Adam Tauno Williams

> And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
> that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
> for the pain/expense of Vista.

 Yes, that's what I said - Vista doesn't offer anything new that people
want, and it's a substantial cost to upgrade.

 However... XP will not *stay* 'good enough'. MS can't (politically) afford
to put much support effort into XP. XP will stagnate, while alternatives
move forward.

> While techy types get worked up about, often obscure, security issues
> most businesses, especially small business (all small businesses?) just
> do-not-care.

 ...until they get hit with a security problem. 

> <aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
> LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely 
> undocumented. 

 Well, enforcing a *Windows-ish* security policy, perhaps.

> GDM is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your 
> account in 14 days if you don't change your password.... nope.

 I'd thought GDM 2.x had been revamped to deal with things like that...

> You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.

 What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be accomplished with
more traditional u/g/o permissions?

> Firefox will work with NTLM or Kerberos authentication for single sign-on
> to the proxy and/or intranet.... nope.

 Seems like this ought to work:
http://open.itworld.com/5037/book_050425firefoxhacks/page_1.html

> I could go one.  Despite all the rah-rag about security the 
> support for good security practices on LINUX sucks.</aside>

 Integration with Windows probably isn't fully there, I'd say. That's
not the same as saying 'support for good security practices' isn't
there.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                           (313) 227-2317

 "When it comes to gas, [Americans] need it cheap, and the president
  had better get it for us, or else, and we don't care how. If it
  takes a hundred thousand dead Iraqi 'soldiers' to keep gas below
  two bucks a gallon - when the rest of the world pays five and up -
                   then that's what it takes."
     - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 15:48:09 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:48:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> > And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
> > that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
> > for the pain/expense of Vista.
>  Yes, that's what I said - Vista doesn't offer anything new that people
> want, and it's a substantial cost to upgrade.
>  However... XP will not *stay* 'good enough'. MS can't (politically) afford
> to put much support effort into XP. XP will stagnate, while alternatives
> move forward.

Of course, nothing stays good enough;  but I know lots of places and
organizations still using 2000.  These technologies remain viable for
much longer than we techies remain infatuated with them.

> > While techy types get worked up about, often obscure, security issues
> > most businesses, especially small business (all small businesses?) just
> > do-not-care.
>  ...until they get hit with a security problem. 

Of course.

> > <aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
> > LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely 
> > undocumented. 
>  Well, enforcing a *Windows-ish* security policy, perhaps.

No, there is nothing Window-ish about notifying users of password change
requirements, etc...

> > GDM is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your 
> > account in 14 days if you don't change your password.... nope.
>  I'd thought GDM 2.x had been revamped to deal with things like that...

Some yes,  it a-l-m-o-s-t works.  Unfortunately there really aren't any
standard/open ways for GDM to know,  unless you are still using an
obsolete technique like shadow passwords via NIS.

> > You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
>  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be accomplished with
> more traditional u/g/o permissions?

A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
UNIX are basically useless to users.

> > Firefox will work with NTLM or Kerberos authentication for single sign-on
> > to the proxy and/or intranet.... nope.
>  Seems like this ought to work:
> http://open.itworld.com/5037/book_050425firefoxhacks/page_1.html

These are listed as hacks for a reason.  Again they are a-l-m-o-s-t
there.

> > I could go one.  Despite all the rah-rag about security the 
> > support for good security practices on LINUX sucks.</aside>
>  Integration with Windows probably isn't fully there, 

None of the above has anything whatsoever to do with integrating with
Windows.

> I'd say. That's
> not the same as saying 'support for good security practices' isn't
> there.

Basic expectations can't be met (prompting for automatic password
change, etc...) and user's can't simply perform basic security
operations (granting r/w access to another user).  If that isn't the
basis of "support for good security practices" I don't know what is.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 18:59:56 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:59:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>

Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
>> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
>> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff. It
>> also has a unique look, simple but pleasing graphics. For that price, I think it's
>> well worth picking up. I got it for full price when it came out and I don't feel
>> cheated. As a bonus, it doesn't take up GB of space on disk; the environments are
>> fractal and the data files small.
>>
>>  The Linux install is here: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/support/linux.html
> 
> 
> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?

Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 19:01:20 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:01:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474223D0.9010104@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
>> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.
> 
> Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
> solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
> energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
> licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
> adding complexity".

In other words, bring Linux in through the back door ....
just like we did with web servers back in the 1990's. :-)




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 19:46:38 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:46:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <47422E6E.9010901@hotpop.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> Bottom line is what they care about, Techies are always poor
>> sales-people. Even if it is the best thing out there, what the
>> resources ever it is.  But New business owners are a different story
>> they have no infrastructure to migrate.  
>> And NO I do not want to waste my time on people who are not even open
>> to listening to sound options. 
>> I know first hand that you have to have support from the top in such
>> issues.  And at that level Dollars and Cents have the final say.  
> 
> No, they don't.  Availability of support, documentation, and talent, as
> well as durability of the vendor.

True.

> 
>> That is why Microsoft uses FUD.  Microsoft has the resources to fluid
>> the market with what ever that want.  
>> And at the end of the day meeting the mission in a cost effective
>> manner is the best business plan.
> 
> Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
> most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
> software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
> 

Long term, windows is very expensive.
The admin/machine ratio is rediculously low for Windows.
Even at 2x the pay, Linux and Unix admins are cheaper,
because Windows is very labor-intensive to administrate.
I can admin 30 Unix machines, running four different
varieties of Unix (HP-UX, IRIX, AIX and Solaris), each
with its own custom configuration, than to admin
10 Windows XP machines all configured the same

I know this from experience, because I have done both.

And when the Unix machines have a standard configuration,
it's very easy to get machine/admin ratios that are
up in the hundreds.

The best I've ever seen for Windows is about 15:1.

> And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
> that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
> for the pain/expense of Vista.  While techy types get worked up about,
> often obscure, security issues most businesses, especially small
> business (all small businesses?) just do-not-care.  They don't even
> force password changes or strong passwords [I've *never* been in a shop
> of less than 50 employees that even had a security policy].  A sane
> configuration of XP is actually pretty secure, certainly enough for the
> every-man to use.  And it is essentially free [despite all that blather
> too - the cost of a desktop machine, M$ tax or no, puts it in the
> disposable expense column.  People often pay more for their desk chair].
> 
> <aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
> LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely undocumented.  GDM
> is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your account in 14
> days if you don't change your password.... nope.  You can view/edit file
> ACLs from nautilus... nope.  Firefox will work with NTLM or Kerberos

I've never seen a need for ACL's in ANY environment outside
of those operating systems which are completely lacking in
any other form of file security.


> authentication for single sign-on to the proxy and/or intranet.... nope.
> I could go one.  Despite all the rah-rag about security the support for
> good security practices on LINUX sucks.</aside>

Every "convenience" is actually another security hole
waiting to be exploited.  Single-sign on is actually
one of the WORST ideas to ever come down the pike...

Authorized user signs onto his login... leaves his/her
desk.  Unauthorized user can now take advanatage of
single-sign to do all sorts of things that they
should not be allowed to do...and through either
maliciousness (backstab a coworker by doing things
under the coworker's ID) or ignorance (screwing
with things they don't fully understand) they can
cause real, damage-to-the-bottom-line sorts of
problems.



> 
>> Okay since I don't see any hands: 
>> What about a YouTube short like the MAC PC  but as a Linux  PC
>> commercial?
> 
> Novell already made several;
 >  they are quite good as such things go.
> You can download them from at least Novell's site.
> 

That's not putting it on TV where people will actually
watch it.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 23:06:41 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:06:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192019520.2150@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>	<b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192019520.2150@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <47425D51.4030307@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2007-11-19, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
>> On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
>> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend a
>>> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.
>> Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
>> solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
>> energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
>> licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
>> adding complexity".
> 
> And don't forget the standard "booze and hookers" angle.
> Corporate execs love that "solution".

Free hooker holding a bottle of whiskey with every Linux server.

You could probably sell them for $5,000 with 300 MHz CPUs.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Nov 19 23:12:50 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:12:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <47425EC2.9010005@hotpop.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>>> Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
>>> most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
>>> software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
>> Errrr, I take it you have never actually see a M$ Enterprise support 
>> agreement and the eight figure ransom big business pays for the real 
>> cost of these "cheep" desktops.
> 
> Are we talking about enterprises or small/medium businesses?  Seems to
> me the mile post in these kind of debates gets switched back and forth
> allot.  Enterprises just don't care,  it isn't that expensive relative
> to other things.  No small/medium business I've ever encountered has an
> M$ support agreement.
> 
>> If they don't pay, they risk the very 
>> real probability that malware will take down their business. 
> 
> Bogus.  I admin a network of ~250 Windows 2000 & XP workstations.  No
> support agreement.  The threat of malware is drasitically overstated by
> fear mongers and alarmists,  the issue is actually quite easily to deal
> with using well-known techniques.  Openness to Open Source solutions
> only makes it even easier.  In all the years I've been an admin there
> has been one lonely incident of malware disrupting (not shutting down)
> normal business and the issue was resolved within hours.
> <aside>Fortunately for us our competition was down for a couple of
> days. :)</aside>
> 
>> Then, there's the cheeper cost of AV and infection mitigation for the user 
>> induced events.
> 
> Well, the cost of our AV protection solution... $0.00.
> 
>> AND, if they have an envirornment where a vedor sells them a WIN OS 
>> embeded device (MF copier, manufacturing machinery, appliance, etc) they 
>> are at real mercy of the desktop devicing causing interruption of their 
>> core business when the cheep desktops cause faults 
> 
> Eh?  This doesn't even make sense.  If you have any kind of embedded
> device / appliance you are always 110% at the mercy of the vendor.
> Nothing changes that.  Fortunately my experience is that most embedded
> devices are far too stupid / limited / sealed to respond to malware in
> anyway (you're lucky if most "appliances" even manage to do what they
> were advertised to do).
> 
>> - maybe infections - 
>> of these "turn key" opperations.  Most of these embeded devices never 
>> get patched and the vendor usually tells the client they can't touch the
> 
> Sure, and what does this have to do with Windows vs. LINUX desktops?
> The embedded devices are just there - nothing anyone can do about the
> bloody things. (I have well over two dozen hosts running NT embedded,
> real crap).

I just had a scary thought... an MS-embeded network printer
being turned into a spam-bot.

I wonder how many exist already.




From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 16:23:53 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:23:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>

> 
> > > You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
> >  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be 
> accomplished 
> > with more traditional u/g/o permissions?
> 
> A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
> secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
> UNIX are basically useless to users.
> 

	Linux does support ACLs.

	Just Google: ACLs for Linux (no quotes required)

	...and you'll find plenty of hits regarding various methods for
setting up and using ACLs in Linux.

	As a test, I opened up a web browser connection to my server and
connected to Webmin. Webmin as a nifty Java based File Browser that supports
the underlying elements available on the Filesystem.

	I created a testfile and then added extra users as having rights on
that file, such as Read Only.

	It appears, without doing anything extra, that my recent
installation of OpenSuSe 10.3 supports extended ACLs out of the gate.

	-Rob


P.S. You know this is a Linux User Group list, right? It really seems like
you are talking about 5+ year old problems as being current issues and
reasons not to use Linux. I'd hazard to suggest that it is almost FUDish.



From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 20 16:37:20 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:37:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
References: <936581.16510.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195513212.5389.1.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>	<b02c40e90711191528l308b2756o3498ac4f575e82c1@mail.gmail.com><alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711192019520.2150@banana.sluggo.net>
	<47425D51.4030307@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <005001c82bbd$87d81dc0$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Aaron Kulkis" <akulkis3 at hotpop.com>
To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?


> Michael Corral wrote:
>> 2007-11-19, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
>>> On Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM, Adam Tauno Williams
>>> <adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> If you think you are going to be able to get business owners to attend 
>>>> a
>>>> technical conference.... lay off the hard drugs.
>>> Then eliminate the tech and Linux.  They are more interested in
>>> solutions like "extending existing hardware investments", "reducing
>>> energy consumption in classrooms and call centers", "avoiding
>>> licensing lock-in", and "eliminating platform dependency without
>>> adding complexity".
>>
>> And don't forget the standard "booze and hookers" angle.
>> Corporate execs love that "solution".
>
> Free hooker holding a bottle of whiskey with every Linux server.
>
> You could probably sell them for $5,000 with 300 MHz CPUs.
.
Hmmmm.... Depends on the whiskey.   ;-)

-Mike



From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 16:48:39 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:48:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <1195595319.4744.13.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>

> > > > You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
> > >  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be 
> > accomplished 
> > > with more traditional u/g/o permissions?
> > A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
> > secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
> > UNIX are basically useless to users.
> 	Linux does support ACLs.

No one said it didn't.

> 	...and you'll find plenty of hits regarding various methods for
> setting up and using ACLs in Linux.
> 	As a test, I opened up a web browser connection to my server and
> connected to Webmin. Webmin as a nifty Java based File Browser that supports
> the underlying elements available on the Filesystem.
> 	I created a testfile and then added extra users as having rights on
> that file, such as Read Only.
> 	It appears, without doing anything extra, that my recent
> installation of OpenSuSe 10.3 supports extended ACLs out of the gate.

>From the original message: "you can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus...
nope".  The context here is concerning LINUX as a viable desktop
alternative to Vista, supporting the end-user in reasonable security
practices.  Use of Webmin certainly isn't end-user.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From muteid10t at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 16:49:26 2007
From: muteid10t at gmail.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:49:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<474245C7.2070105@ameritech.net>
	<19993.216.144.215.245.1195566709.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
	<474301D6.7010707@ameritech.net>
	<20543.216.144.215.245.1195576489.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <52995d720711201349j57967bfeq22c3df6a16b194a2@mail.gmail.com>

if you are remoting from linux to windows why not just use RDP via
rdesktop on linux, if you only need one app look for seamlessrdp. If
you are going from windows to linux and you only need one or two apps
use xming.

All this talk about using vnc over ssh on a local network is over
kill. I understand it if you are accessing a remote system over the
internet but then you should just look for one of the versions of VNC
that has encryption built in instead of cramming VNC over SSH and
making the VNC connection that much more bogged down and choppy.

-Ron

On 11/20/07, Carl T. Miller <millerc at cantonpl.org> wrote:
> Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> > Right, VNC is great for forwarding a whole desktop. For forwarding a
> > single app (i.e. less band width required) Putty won't do it to windows,
> > no local X display. I floated the idea of a small footprint Linux in a
> > virtual machine to provide a local x display. What do you suggest?
>
> I missed the part about the virtual machine.  You're right that
> there is no free and easy answer that does everything, as far as
> I know.
>
> It's a lot easier to use putty and the Windows version of VNCviewer,
> although it does mean you'll get the entire desktop.  If bandwidth
> is a concern, I believe that VNC can be configured to use less data
> for screen updates than what x can.  Also I think it is possible to
> use compression in the ssh tunnel to improve really slow connections.
>
> Is it worth the extra requirements to set up a virtual environment,
> create a virtual machine, install an entire OS, and then run a single
> app inside a window inside the virtual machine?  It depends on what
> you're doing.  However, if I did want to run a single app in its own
> window, I wouldn't want a virtual machine.  I would look into getting
> a good x-server for Windows.  The good ones aren't cheap, which is why
> I like the putty/vnc connection at the price of getting a full desktop.
>
> Of course, it would be possible to customize such a desktop so that
> only one application runs and the connection is dropped when the app-
> lication closes, but I haven't had the need to set up such a desktop.
>
> c
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 16:53:16 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:53:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195595319.4744.13.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <20071120215952.EE70C14127@impelind.com>

> 
> > > > > You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
> > > >  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be
> > > accomplished
> > > > with more traditional u/g/o permissions?
> > > A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their 
> file, and the
> > > secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o 
> permissions from
> > > UNIX are basically useless to users.
> > 	Linux does support ACLs.
> 
> No one said it didn't.
> 
> > 	...and you'll find plenty of hits regarding various methods for 
> > setting up and using ACLs in Linux.
> > 	As a test, I opened up a web browser connection to my 
> server and 
> > connected to Webmin. Webmin as a nifty Java based File Browser that 
> > supports the underlying elements available on the Filesystem.
> > 	I created a testfile and then added extra users as 
> having rights on 
> > that file, such as Read Only.
> > 	It appears, without doing anything extra, that my 
> recent installation 
> > of OpenSuSe 10.3 supports extended ACLs out of the gate.
> 
> >From the original message: "you can view/edit file ACLs from 
> nautilus...
> nope".  The context here is concerning LINUX as a viable 
> desktop alternative to Vista, supporting the end-user in 
> reasonable security practices.  Use of Webmin certainly isn't 
> end-user.
> 

	Konqueror supports that as well and it certainly is an End-User app.

	Under the properties of a file, there's a tab marked Permissions, on
that tab is a button marked "Advanced Permissions", which allows to use
ACLs. Konqueror is designed with the Power User in mind, for the most part
only power users or admins would think/consider the use of such ACLs.

	Nautilus, in fact all of GNOME, (unless something has changed
recently) has always been aimed at the "Average User", which are those
people who are just above thinking that a mouse is similar to a foot pedal
for a sewing machine all the way up to those who THINK they are "power
users" but really are nowhere near that ability/understanding.

	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I could be wrong,
it may actually support advanced permissions now as well. I'll load it up on
my test machine and see if that's the case and report later.

	I only used Webmin earlier because the test machine is in another
area that I hadn't felt like walking to.

	-Rob



From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Nov 20 17:05:40 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:05:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120215952.EE70C14127@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <20071120221216.8BC3B1412E@impelind.com>


> > 
> 
> 	Konqueror supports that as well and it certainly is an 
> End-User app.
> 
> 	Under the properties of a file, there's a tab marked 
> Permissions, on that tab is a button marked "Advanced 
> Permissions", which allows to use ACLs. Konqueror is designed 
> with the Power User in mind, for the most part only power 
> users or admins would think/consider the use of such ACLs.
> 
> 	Nautilus, in fact all of GNOME, (unless something has changed
> recently) has always been aimed at the "Average User", which 
> are those people who are just above thinking that a mouse is 
> similar to a foot pedal for a sewing machine all the way up 
> to those who THINK they are "power users" but really are 
> nowhere near that ability/understanding.
> 
> 	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I 
> could be wrong, it may actually support advanced permissions 
> now as well. I'll load it up on my test machine and see if 
> that's the case and report later.
> 
> 	I only used Webmin earlier because the test machine is 
> in another area that I hadn't felt like walking to.
> 
> 	-Rob
> 

	I forgot to include that I honestly wouldn't be surprised if adding
Advanced Permission support simply isn't part of the GNOME development
team's agenda.

	-Rob



From wolfger at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 17:46:25 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:46:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 19, 2007 6:59 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> > On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> >
> > The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
> > the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
> > extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?
>
> Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
> the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
> might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.

I am constantly amazed at how many people deem human intervention to
be unnatural. We are, after all, as nature created us... impulses to
intervene and all.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From Stan at mcomputersolutions.com  Tue Nov 20 17:48:02 2007
From: Stan at mcomputersolutions.com (Stan Green)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:48:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Lite: 5 Tiny Distros That Pack A Big Bang
Message-ID: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>

Here is an article from Information Week that I thought some here might find 
interesting. 

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=203100989&cid=nl_IWK_daily

Regards,
Stan Green


From mdlug3 at arb.net  Tue Nov 20 18:11:41 2007
From: mdlug3 at arb.net (Dave Arbogast)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:11:41 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <474369AD.6090707@arb.net>



Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

>>>Sure, and "cost effective" means allot more than upfront cost.  Since
>>>most businesses pay a pittance for desktop machines, let alone the
>>>software on them,  the business case for LINUX is a pretty hard sell.
>>>      
>>>
>>Errrr, I take it you have never actually see a M$ Enterprise support 
>>agreement and the eight figure ransom big business pays for the real 
>>cost of these "cheep" desktops.
>>    
>>
>
>Are we talking about enterprises or small/medium businesses?  Seems to
>me the mile post in these kind of debates gets switched back and forth
>allot.  Enterprises just don't care,  it isn't that expensive relative
>to other things.  No small/medium business I've ever encountered has an
>M$ support agreement.
>  
>
I thought I clearly said BIG Business ;-)  I have been in several BIG 
Businesses, and they care enough to shell out BIG money for it. They 
also get "services" from M$ to resolve problems before the rest of the 
M$ customers who don't care....

>  
>
>>If they don't pay, they risk the very 
>>real probability that malware will take down their business. 
>>    
>>
>
>Bogus.  I admin a network of ~250 Windows 2000 & XP workstations.  No
>support agreement.  The threat of malware is drasitically overstated by
>fear mongers and alarmists,  the issue is actually quite easily to deal
>with using well-known techniques.  Openness to Open Source solutions
>only makes it even easier.  In all the years I've been an admin there
>has been one lonely incident of malware disrupting (not shutting down)
>normal business and the issue was resolved within hours.
><aside>Fortunately for us our competition was down for a couple of
>days. :)</aside>
>  
>

Sorry Adam, I was talking about Enterprise - BIG Business. 250 nodes is 
not even a single suite on a single floor for big business. My personal 
experience. Not conjecture. I personally have seen Tens of MILLIONS of 
real dollars in lost business on multiple occurrences in BIG business 
due to M$ systems being wacked by malware in a production environment. 
Again, personal experience, not grape vine, and not small business.

The topic of this tread is "A big opportunity for Linux?" and that is 
where I am attempting to show I think Big business is ripe for the 
opportunity.

>  
>
>>Then, there's the cheeper cost of AV and infection mitigation for the user 
>>induced events.
>>    
>>
>
>Well, the cost of our AV protection solution... $0.00.
>  
>
Well, for a small privately held company, it sounds like you have faired 
well.

>  
>
>>AND, if they have an envirornment where a vedor sells them a WIN OS 
>>embeded device (MF copier, manufacturing machinery, appliance, etc) they 
>>are at real mercy of the desktop devicing causing interruption of their 
>>core business when the cheep desktops cause faults 
>>    
>>
>
>Eh?  This doesn't even make sense.  If you have any kind of embedded
>device / appliance you are always 110% at the mercy of the vendor.
>Nothing changes that.  Fortunately my experience is that most embedded
>devices are far too stupid / limited / sealed to respond to malware in
>anyway (you're lucky if most "appliances" even manage to do what they
>were advertised to do).
>
>  
>
Again, I was talking about personal experience. I have seen this. Just 
dig under the covers of most of the Multi-function copiers. Again, this 
is for BIG business, so we are talking about tens of thousands of 
dollars for a single machine - they all too often have Windoze 2000 
Server as the embedded system. It is not "limited" or "too stupid" to 
become infected with a host of malware.

>>- maybe infections - 
>>of these "turn key" opperations.  Most of these embeded devices never 
>>get patched and the vendor usually tells the client they can't touch the
>>    
>>
>
>Sure, and what does this have to do with Windows vs. LINUX desktops?
>The embedded devices are just there - nothing anyone can do about the
>bloody things. (I have well over two dozen hosts running NT embedded,
>real crap).
>
>  
>
"A big opportunity for Linux?" - Topic - yes?   So, all these systems I 
spoke of are WIndows Desktop systems that cost a ton of money after the 
fact, and Linux desktops have a clear benefit against malware - less 
cost and more reliability. It is clear to me. I' m sorry if I have not 
articulated this well.

>>OS. I have seen all of this. It is costing business multi-billions to 
>>mitigate the risks and clean up after this so call "cheep OS". 
>>    
>>
>
>And I've seen those numbers;  same thing with SPAM... it is costing some
>unholy amount of money.  I don't buy it.  If this is true then those
>networks are being administered poorly or someone is quite happy to just
>fork over buckets of money for someone else to deal with the problem (a
>legitimate business solution in some cases [although, I suspect, usually
>not]).
>
>  
>
Well, I personally have seen this is BIG business, first hand, not a 
trade rag.  Choose to believe what you want. This is about Opportunity 
for Linux, not opinions - mine nor yours.

>>I thought eveyone knows M$ does not make the bulk of their $$$ from 
>>selling the actual software anymore....
>>    
>>
>
>So?  This is true of IBM, HP, Sun, etc... hardware & software is just a
>platform.  The solution is valuable part, so of course that is where the
>profit is.
>
>  
>
Again, back to the topic of discussion. Opportunity for Linux based on 
real total cost of ownership....     

Are you a tried and True MSCE ?  :-D    I usually don't get slammed so 
hard by Linux people what I talk about Linux, particularly when the lack 
of Windoze security is a factor.

-dave   (CISSP)
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From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 20 18:53:45 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:53:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47437389.30806@hotpop.com>

Wolfger wrote:
> On Nov 19, 2007 6:59 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> Joseph Vartanian wrote:
>>> On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
>>> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
>>> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?
>> Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
>> the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
>> might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.
> 
> I am constantly amazed at how many people deem human intervention to
> be unnatural. We are, after all, as nature created us... impulses to
> intervene and all.
> 

Precisely.




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 19:16:34 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:16:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Lite: 5 Tiny Distros That Pack A Big Bang
In-Reply-To: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711201616i6d326ac6w1b021ac5933f70c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 20, 2007 5:48 PM, Stan Green <Stan at mcomputersolutions.com> wrote:
> Here is an article from Information Week that I thought some here might find
> interesting.
>
> http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=203100989&cid=nl_IWK_daily

I would add DeLi Linux (www.delilinux.de/index.html) for really old
systems.  The developer uses a 486 laptop.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 20 18:51:26 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:51:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071120213029.943221412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <474372FE.2000709@hotpop.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>>>> You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
>>>  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be 
>> accomplished 
>>> with more traditional u/g/o permissions?
>> A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
>> secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
>> UNIX are basically useless to users.
>>
> 
> 	Linux does support ACLs.
> 
> 	Just Google: ACLs for Linux (no quotes required)
> 
> 	...and you'll find plenty of hits regarding various methods for
> setting up and using ACLs in Linux.

> 
> 	As a test, I opened up a web browser connection to my server and
> connected to Webmin. Webmin as a nifty Java based File Browser that supports
> the underlying elements available on the Filesystem.
> 
> 	I created a testfile and then added extra users as having rights on
> that file, such as Read Only.
> 
> 	It appears, without doing anything extra, that my recent
> installation of OpenSuSe 10.3 supports extended ACLs out of the gate.
> 


I've yet to come across a situation where they were
actually needed, even in the workplace.


> 	-Rob
> 
> 
> P.S. You know this is a Linux User Group list, right? It really seems like
> you are talking about 5+ year old problems as being current issues and
> reasons not to use Linux. I'd hazard to suggest that it is almost FUDish.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 





From jvartanian at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 00:34:28 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:34:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 20, 2007 6:53 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Wolfger wrote:
> > On Nov 19, 2007 6:59 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> >> Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> >>> On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
> >>> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
> >>> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?
> >> Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
> >> the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
> >> might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.
> >
> > I am constantly amazed at how many people deem human intervention to
> > be unnatural. We are, after all, as nature created us... impulses to
> > intervene and all.
> >
>
> Precisely.
>

True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
natural selection and extinction.  We have a much better
understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
world around us and ultimately ourselves.  This ability to understand
things that other animals can't understand is the one and only unique
ability that nature gave to us humans.  Humans think and animals act
on impulse.  If we don't use this unique ability, and act only on pure
impulse, then that makes us nothing but animals again.

Now I have no idea why I just wrote all that.  I think it was just an impulse.

-Joseph


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 20 16:08:28 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:08:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>>> And all the noise about how bad Vista is misses the point - the fact is
>>> that XP is in most cases good enough, hence the lack of a business case
>>> for the pain/expense of Vista.
>>  Yes, that's what I said - Vista doesn't offer anything new that people
>> want, and it's a substantial cost to upgrade.
>>  However... XP will not *stay* 'good enough'. MS can't (politically) afford
>> to put much support effort into XP. XP will stagnate, while alternatives
>> move forward.
> 
> Of course, nothing stays good enough;  but I know lots of places and
> organizations still using 2000.  These technologies remain viable for
> much longer than we techies remain infatuated with them.
> 
>>> While techy types get worked up about, often obscure, security issues
>>> most businesses, especially small business (all small businesses?) just
>>> do-not-care.
>>  ...until they get hit with a security problem. 
> 
> Of course.
> 
>>> <aside>Not to mention that enforcing a decent security policy among
>>> LINUX desktops is a major PITA and almost completely 
>>> undocumented. 
>>  Well, enforcing a *Windows-ish* security policy, perhaps.
> 
> No, there is nothing Window-ish about notifying users of password change
> requirements, etc...
> 
>>> GDM is going to tell you that the DSA is going to expire your 
>>> account in 14 days if you don't change your password.... nope.
>>  I'd thought GDM 2.x had been revamped to deal with things like that...
> 
> Some yes,  it a-l-m-o-s-t works.  Unfortunately there really aren't any
> standard/open ways for GDM to know,  unless you are still using an
> obsolete technique like shadow passwords via NIS.
> 
>>> You can view/edit file ACLs from nautilus... nope.
>>  What, specifically, do you need ACLs for that can't be accomplished with
>> more traditional u/g/o permissions?
> 
> A user wants two other user's to be able to edit their file, and the
> secretary to be able to read the file?    The u/g/o permissions from
> UNIX are basically useless to users.

In actual practice in the workplace, I've never seen
u/g/o rwx to be insufficient for that sort of task.

I suppose the CIA would be an exception...but that's a VERY
special exception.

Even in the combat environment of Baghdad, ACLs are an
extremely heavy-handed way of solving the problem (and
in many ways, even clumsier than u/g/o rwx).




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Nov 21 01:04:40 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 01:04:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4743CA78.9050208@hotpop.com>

Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2007 6:53 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>> Wolfger wrote:
>>> On Nov 19, 2007 6:59 PM, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
>>>> Joseph Vartanian wrote:
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2007 8:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The site says "Your task is to destroy the Viral Infection and save
>>>>> the Darwinians from extinction."  Wouldn't Darwin say that the
>>>>> extinction of the Darwinians is natural selection?
>>>> Only if the Darwinians do nothing to resist -- otherwise,
>>>> the outcome is contested, but the result, whatever it
>>>> might be, will still be Darwinian natural selection.
>>> I am constantly amazed at how many people deem human intervention to
>>> be unnatural. We are, after all, as nature created us... impulses to
>>> intervene and all.
>>>
>> Precisely.
>>
> 
> True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
> I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
> kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
> distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
> only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
> natural selection and extinction.  We have a much better
> understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
> world around us and ultimately ourselves.  This ability to understand
> things that other animals can't understand is the one and only unique
> ability that nature gave to us humans.  Humans think and animals act
> on impulse.  If we don't use this unique ability, and act only on pure
> impulse, then that makes us nothing but animals again.

Elephants and some of the higher apes also demonstrate
self-awareness (such as minipulating their own body parts
for a better look after being presented with a mirror and
being given enough time with the mirror to be able to
figure out that the creature seen in the mirror is actually
themselves)... I believe they have also demonstrated this
with some dolphins and killer-whales (orcas -- not to be
confused with orcs ;-) )

> 
> Now I have no idea why I just wrote all that.  I think it was just an impulse.
> 

Mmmmmmmmm... could BEEEEEEEE ;-)

</bugsbunny>

> -Joseph





From wolfger at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 07:06:16 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:06:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711210406s56893540o76a9e6228f4056b3@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 12:34 AM, Joseph Vartanian <jvartanian at gmail.com> wrote:

> True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
> I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
> kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
> distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
> only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
> natural selection and extinction.

That sounds like ego talking. Dolphins understand what we say a lot
better than we understand what they say. They lack opposable thumbs,
sure, but does that mean they're necessarily less intelligent than us?
We measure their intelligence by our standards and find them lacking,
but I'm sure they measure us by their standards and find us lacking.
Did you know dolphins actually have been observed testing humans?

> We have a much better
> understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
> world around us and ultimately ourselves.

If that was true, we wouldn't pollute the land we live in, or hunt
animals to extinction. Both of which we've done quite a lot of in the
past few centuries (to say the least).

> Humans think and animals act
> on impulse.  If we don't use this unique ability, and act only on pure
> impulse, then that makes us nothing but animals again.

That's pure arrogance. Animals do think, and humans do act on impulse.
There's less difference between us and the rest of the animal kingdom
than you're trying to portray.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 21 08:10:13 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:10:13 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120221216.8BC3B1412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <20071121131651.4408314140@impelind.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Robert Adkins
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:06 PM
> To: 'MDLUG's Main discussion list'; adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
> 
> 
> > > 
> > 
> > 	Konqueror supports that as well and it certainly is an 
> End-User app.
> > 
> > 	Under the properties of a file, there's a tab marked 
> Permissions, on 
> > that tab is a button marked "Advanced Permissions", which allows to 
> > use ACLs. Konqueror is designed with the Power User in 
> mind, for the 
> > most part only power users or admins would think/consider 
> the use of 
> > such ACLs.
> > 
> > 	Nautilus, in fact all of GNOME, (unless something has changed
> > recently) has always been aimed at the "Average User", 
> which are those 
> > people who are just above thinking that a mouse is similar 
> to a foot 
> > pedal for a sewing machine all the way up to those who 
> THINK they are 
> > "power users" but really are nowhere near that 
> ability/understanding.
> > 
> > 	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I 
> could be wrong, 
> > it may actually support advanced permissions now as well. 
> I'll load it 
> > up on my test machine and see if that's the case and report later.
> > 
> > 	I only used Webmin earlier because the test machine is 
> in another 
> > area that I hadn't felt like walking to.
> > 
> > 	-Rob
> > 
> 
> 	I forgot to include that I honestly wouldn't be 
> surprised if adding Advanced Permission support simply isn't 
> part of the GNOME development team's agenda.
> 
> 	-Rob
> 

	I checked on one of my home systems last night. The most recent
release of GNOME certainly does lack the ability to utilize ACLs. 

	I hardly see that as an issue, considering the fact that GNOME has
always been geared toward the novice who is likely to have virtually no
knowledge of even simple filesystem permissions, let alone the additional
complexities that ACLs can add to the mix.

	On GNOME's webpage, here's the first sentence describing the
project: "GNOME offers an easy to understand desktop for your GNU/Linux or
UNIX computer."

	ACLs (Heck even basic permissions) are hardly within the realm of
"easy to understand". (Unless, of course, you are an advanced user/admin.) I
run a Domain Controller using Samba for the office and even though I have
explained permissions time and time again, as well as set individualized
permissions on particular files specifically to allow most users ONLY read
access and a few users RW access to a single file in an otherwise "full
access" directory, I regularly field questions about who has access to what,
why and sometimes how that works. (From the same people, over and over.)

	If you are a Power User or Admin and you need direct access to ACLs,
use a Desktop geared for that type of work, like KDE or use a File Manager
that supports ACLs while you are running the GNOME desktop.

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 10:13:45 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:13:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person file manager"
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

http://ingles.homeunix.net/software/fpfm/

 It's not even an alpha yet - I'm not ready to put out source code - but I've
got a few preliminary screenshots for perusal. You can get a rough idea of what
it'll look like.

 A couple things that are working, but I didn't grab screenshots of yet,
are (a) translucency for symlinks and (b) image files wallpapered with a
thumbnail of the image they contain.

 I estimate about another month before I can make an alpha release. I don't
have a lot of time to work on it... :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

         Linux: For those that want to know why it works.
      MacOS: For those that don't want to know why it works.
  Windows: For those that don't want to know why it doesn't work.
                           - Anonymous
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 10:15:05 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:15:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330711210406s56893540o76a9e6228f4056b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
	<3b00b3330711210406s56893540o76a9e6228f4056b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430711210715i4aa2b205q6871c4483ead365f@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 7:06 AM, Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2007 12:34 AM, Joseph Vartanian <jvartanian at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
> > I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
> > kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
> > distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
> > only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
> > natural selection and extinction.
>
> That sounds like ego talking. Dolphins understand what we say a lot
> better than we understand what they say. They lack opposable thumbs,
> sure, but does that mean they're necessarily less intelligent than us?
> We measure their intelligence by our standards and find them lacking,
> but I'm sure they measure us by their standards and find us lacking.
> Did you know dolphins actually have been observed testing humans?
>
> > We have a much better
> > understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
> > world around us and ultimately ourselves.
>
> If that was true, we wouldn't pollute the land we live in, or hunt
> animals to extinction. Both of which we've done quite a lot of in the
> past few centuries (to say the least).
>

My point exactly.  We're not using our ability to think, and the
result is that we pollute the land we live in and hunt animals to
extinction.  I'll admit that I have a strange way of making my points.

-Joseph


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 10:25:49 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:25:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071120215952.EE70C14127@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I could be wrong,
> it may actually support advanced permissions now as well. 

 Not quite integrated into Nautilus (yet), but available for Gnome:

 http://rofi.roger-ferrer.org/eiciel/

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                     (313) 227-2317

 "I regularly see an entire morning's work... get blipped away
  forever to the Planet of Lost Data. Needless to say, I use
              Microsoft Windows." - Dave Barry
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 21 10:34:40 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:34:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071121154117.787531412E@impelind.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Ingles, Raymond
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:26 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > 	Now, I haven't used Nautilus in a little while, so I 
> could be wrong, 
> > it may actually support advanced permissions now as well.
> 
>  Not quite integrated into Nautilus (yet), but available for Gnome:
> 
>  http://rofi.roger-ferrer.org/eiciel/
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                                     (313) 227-2317
> 


I suppose a little extra Googling and a little extra reading never hurts.

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 10:56:03 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:56:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

We were recently given a laptop with a dead battery, hard drive, and CD-ROM drive.
I managed to scavenge a 10GB disk, but installing without a CD drive looked to
be mildly irritating. Boot floppies again, oy.

 However, while the BIOS won't boot from CD, it *will* boot from the network. So, a
bit of Googling, and:

 http://wiki.koeln.ccc.de/index.php/Ubuntu_PXE_Install

 A bit of tweaking (I use xinetd instead of inetd and had to tweak the config
for tftp) and the thing booted right up off our wired network into the Ubuntu
installer. It took a while to install the packages over the network (over an
hour, actually) but it's operating quite well, and my little 802.11b wifi card
is connecting up. We have a semi-mobile workstation, now. I'll doubtless spend
some xmas money on a battery for it to make it fully mobile.

 The only sticking point is the onboard "Geforce2 Go" graphics. The screen
locks up if I used the closed-source Nvidia drivers, though the open-source
"nv" one works fine. I'll have to see if I can get the binary ones working;
I'm really curious to see if this machine can handle Compiz. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                           (313) 227-2317

 "DRM 'manages access' in the same way that jail 'manages freedom.'"
                         - Mr. Chaotica
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 11:34:57 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:34:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person file
	manager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <5aa434200711210834nbd856atb679c0c874a6342f@mail.gmail.com>

That looks entirely useless, and really damn cool. Put the source out there
sometime so I can play with it :)



On Nov 21, 2007 10:13 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
wrote:

> http://ingles.homeunix.net/software/fpfm/
>
>  It's not even an alpha yet - I'm not ready to put out source code - but
> I've
> got a few preliminary screenshots for perusal. You can get a rough idea of
> what
> it'll look like.
>
>  A couple things that are working, but I didn't grab screenshots of yet,
> are (a) translucency for symlinks and (b) image files wallpapered with a
> thumbnail of the image they contain.
>
>  I estimate about another month before I can make an alpha release. I
> don't
> have a lot of time to work on it... :->
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317
>
>         Linux: For those that want to know why it works.
>      MacOS: For those that don't want to know why it works.
>  Windows: For those that don't want to know why it doesn't work.
>                           - Anonymous
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose
> it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately
> and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
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From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 21 12:05:42 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:05:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47446566.6080600@comcast.net>

Joseph Vartanian wrote:
> True.  We often forget that we're part of this thing we call nature.
> I believe it's just us trying to distance ourselves from the animal
> kingdom, because it makes us feel special.  But why shouldn't we
> distance ourselves from them?  We're smarter than them.  We're the
> only living things on Earth that actually understand concepts like
> natural selection and extinction.  We have a much better
> understanding, than any other animal, of how our actions impact the
> world around us and ultimately ourselves.  This ability to understand
> things that other animals can't understand is the one and only unique
> ability that nature gave to us humans.  Humans think and animals act
> on impulse.  If we don't use this unique ability, and act only on pure
> impulse, then that makes us nothing but animals again.
>
> Now I have no idea why I just wrote all that.  I think it was just an impulse.
>   

Thinking ourselves apart from nature causes us to make serious errors. 
While we are to the point unique in our ability alter our circumstances
and environment, we are not "apart" from nature, and it helps to
remember that.  "Nature" affects us as much if not more than we affect
nature.

In many years for observing animals, the human variety included, I am
not so sure that abstract thought is the realm of humans alone. 
Likewise the supposedly human traits of kindness, love, and charity.  I
don't believe that sentients is a black and white issue. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 21 12:13:54 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:13:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person file
	manager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <47446752.4070008@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  A couple things that are working, but I didn't grab screenshots of yet,
> are (a) translucency for symlinks and (b) image files wallpapered with a
> thumbnail of the image they contain.
>
>  I estimate about another month before I can make an alpha release. I don't
> have a lot of time to work on it... :->
>
>   

So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?

It looks cool. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 12:23:04 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:23:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <47446752.4070008@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Garry Stahl
> So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?

 That was a real program:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Graphics#Entertainment_industry

 I do plan on stealing one idea from it: an alternate coloring scheme
will have recently-touched files be 'white-hot' and then they'll
gradually 'cool' to black.

> It looks cool. 

 Thanks. One thing I didn't anticipate is how wide the rooms get when
you've got a lot of subdirectories. My home directory is unmanageably
broad. I may have to re-think how to lay out the doors...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

  "Sure, it's OK for Ashcroft to interrogate everyone who's ever
  glanced toward Mecca - *his* profiling was A-okay. In fact, if
  you whined about it and brought up civil rights you were just
 'aiding the terrorists'. But at the airports, where we face the
 most obvious and imminent danger, we have become dangerously and
    inexplicably committed to placing pretense over results."
   - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From painbank at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 13:32:39 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:32:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <47446752.4070008@comcast.net>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711211032o47971bamc0a301cde99e04d7@mail.gmail.com>

ooohhhh I haven't seen anything like this as of yet....

so many concepts flow just from the screenshots...

preview abilities...

Doors, they can be, they can also be other things... anything really,
so long as you know when you click on something, you go somewhere....

I bet this would make finding forgotten file locations oh so much more fun!

hell I would enjoy looking at the code...

Very cool, I look forward to using this in the near future!

Rich

On Nov 21, 2007 12:23 PM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > From: Garry Stahl
> > So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?
>
>  That was a real program:
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Graphics#Entertainment_industry
>
>  I do plan on stealing one idea from it: an alternate coloring scheme
> will have recently-touched files be 'white-hot' and then they'll
> gradually 'cool' to black.
>
> > It looks cool.
>
>  Thanks. One thing I didn't anticipate is how wide the rooms get when
> you've got a lot of subdirectories. My home directory is unmanageably
> broad. I may have to re-think how to lay out the doors...
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Sure, it's OK for Ashcroft to interrogate everyone who's ever
>  glanced toward Mecca - *his* profiling was A-okay. In fact, if
>  you whined about it and brought up civil rights you were just
>  'aiding the terrorists'. But at the airports, where we face the
>  most obvious and imminent danger, we have become dangerously and
>    inexplicably committed to placing pretense over results."
>   - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
>
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img
src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0"
alt="The Pain Bank - SCA and WMA"/></a>


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 21 13:38:40 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:38:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <cafacd830711211032o47971bamc0a301cde99e04d7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071121184518.0CFB914127@impelind.com>


 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Rich Elswick
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 1:33 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first 
> person filemanager"
> 
> ooohhhh I haven't seen anything like this as of yet....
> 
> so many concepts flow just from the screenshots...
> 
> preview abilities...
> 
> Doors, they can be, they can also be other things... anything 
> really, so long as you know when you click on something, you 
> go somewhere....
> 
> I bet this would make finding forgotten file locations oh so 
> much more fun!
> 
> hell I would enjoy looking at the code...
> 
> Very cool, I look forward to using this in the near future!
> 
> Rich
> 
> On Nov 21, 2007 12:23 PM, Ingles, Raymond 
> <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > > From: Garry Stahl
> > > So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?
> >
> >  That was a real program:
> >  
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Graphics#Entertainment_industry
> >
> >  I do plan on stealing one idea from it: an alternate 
> coloring scheme 
> > will have recently-touched files be 'white-hot' and then they'll 
> > gradually 'cool' to black.
> >
> > > It looks cool.
> >
> >  Thanks. One thing I didn't anticipate is how wide the 
> rooms get when 
> > you've got a lot of subdirectories. My home directory is 
> unmanageably 
> > broad. I may have to re-think how to lay out the doors...
> >
> >  Sincerely,
> >
> >  Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317
> >
> >  "Sure, it's OK for Ashcroft to interrogate everyone who's ever  
> > glanced toward Mecca - *his* profiling was A-okay. In fact, if  you 
> > whined about it and brought up civil rights you were just  
> 'aiding the 
> > terrorists'. But at the airports, where we face the  most 
> obvious and 
> > imminent danger, we have become dangerously and
> >    inexplicably committed to placing pretense over results."
> >   - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
> > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named 
> addressee only. It contains information that may be 
> confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an 
> authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose 
> it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify 
> us immediately and then destroy it.
> > _______________________________________________
> >

	Is it wrong to ask for features?

	Like instead of just files represented as boxes, there could be
files represented with 3D Avatars of the user who owns the file wearing some
sort of uniform colored to match the group...

	Files one simply lacks access to could have some form of guardian
avatar basically saying "No! Stand back!"

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Nov 21 14:05:44 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:05:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <20071121184518.0CFB914127@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Like instead of just files represented as boxes, there could be
> files represented with 3D Avatars of the user who owns the 
> file wearing some sort of uniform colored to match the group...

 Um, (a) this is my first 3D graphics program, and (b) I'm trying to
make this usable on older hardware - right now I'm getting 30fps, even
in a directory with hundreds of files, on a ~700MHz box with i810 graphics.
This looks a lot like a first-person shooter precisely *because* those can
run efficiently on commonly-available hardware.

 My goal is to try to stick with ideas that fit roughly with human intuitions.
We have hardware in our head for looking at objects and instantly judging their
size, shape, and composition; we have hardware for navigating around 3D worlds
with landmarks and such; I'm hoping to take advantage of that insofar as
possible.

 If you took a Mac user from 1984 and put them in front of a modern Gnome or
KDE interface, they'd be able to manage pretty well - there wouldn't be a
whole lot that was really new to them. But now we've got 3D hardware in
every computer sold, and we're not really taking advantage of it. I'm hoping
to find a new metaphor, like the 'desktop' was the metaphor of the new, 2D
graphical world in the 1980s. I won't get it all right; I may not get any of
it right. But I figure it's worth messing with.

 As an example of how *not* to do it, see tdfsb:

 http://www.determinate.net/webdata/seg/tdfsb.html

 The file size range is too broad, you can't find small files easily, you
wind up walking between 'buildings' of large files. Just looking at a file,
you can't tell much about it except size. A few file types have special
treatment but in a fun rather than useful way. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not
knocking his efforts - he's got something actually out there, and well before
me - but I think that's the wrong underlying metaphor.)

 All that being said, the source will be out there soon enough, and if you
want to add such things, feel free. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317
                       Free Stereogram!
    Try to make the two "O"s in the next row look like three:
                              O    O
 n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n   n
 f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f    f
 e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e   e
 a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a    a
 a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a   a
 r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r    r
 r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r   r
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From painbank at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 14:08:01 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:08:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <20071121184518.0CFB914127@impelind.com>
References: <cafacd830711211032o47971bamc0a301cde99e04d7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20071121184518.0CFB914127@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711211108p11632da7p16dd81311cad369c@mail.gmail.com>

oh, boy, oh boy, does Shadowrun come to mind...!!!!!!!!

On Nov 21, 2007 1:38 PM, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org
> > [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Rich Elswick
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 1:33 PM
> > To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> > Subject: Re: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first
> > person filemanager"
> >
> > ooohhhh I haven't seen anything like this as of yet....
> >
> > so many concepts flow just from the screenshots...
> >
> > preview abilities...
> >
> > Doors, they can be, they can also be other things... anything
> > really, so long as you know when you click on something, you
> > go somewhere....
> >
> > I bet this would make finding forgotten file locations oh so
> > much more fun!
> >
> > hell I would enjoy looking at the code...
> >
> > Very cool, I look forward to using this in the near future!
> >
> > Rich
> >
> > On Nov 21, 2007 12:23 PM, Ingles, Raymond
> > <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > > > From: Garry Stahl
> > > > So you are trying to build the system we saw in Jurassic Park?
> > >
> > >  That was a real program:
> > >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Graphics#Entertainment_industry
> > >
> > >  I do plan on stealing one idea from it: an alternate
> > coloring scheme
> > > will have recently-touched files be 'white-hot' and then they'll
> > > gradually 'cool' to black.
> > >
> > > > It looks cool.
> > >
> > >  Thanks. One thing I didn't anticipate is how wide the
> > rooms get when
> > > you've got a lot of subdirectories. My home directory is
> > unmanageably
> > > broad. I may have to re-think how to lay out the doors...
> > >
> > >  Sincerely,
> > >
> > >  Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317
> > >
> > >  "Sure, it's OK for Ashcroft to interrogate everyone who's ever
> > > glanced toward Mecca - *his* profiling was A-okay. In fact, if  you
> > > whined about it and brought up civil rights you were just
> > 'aiding the
> > > terrorists'. But at the airports, where we face the  most
> > obvious and
> > > imminent danger, we have become dangerously and
> > >    inexplicably committed to placing pretense over results."
> > >   - Bill Maher, "When You Ride Alone You Ride With bin Laden"
> > > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named
> > addressee only. It contains information that may be
> > confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an
> > authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose
> > it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify
> > us immediately and then destroy it.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
>
>        Is it wrong to ask for features?
>
>        Like instead of just files represented as boxes, there could be
> files represented with 3D Avatars of the user who owns the file wearing some
> sort of uniform colored to match the group...
>
>        Files one simply lacks access to could have some form of guardian
> avatar basically saying "No! Stand back!"
>
>        -Rob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img
src="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0"
alt="The Pain Bank - SCA and WMA"/></a>


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 17:52:01 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:52:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <47446566.6080600@comcast.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>
	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>
	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>
	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>
	<47446566.6080600@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711211452t10d42b8bt495d512483554064@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 12:05 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Thinking ourselves apart from nature causes us to make serious errors.
> While we are to the point unique in our ability alter our circumstances
> and environment, we are not "apart" from nature, and it helps to
> remember that.  "Nature" affects us as much if not more than we affect
> nature.

www.vhemt.org


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 18:19:11 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 18:19:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB6@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711211519m21ce10f4w9137c3303a7fce06@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 10:56 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  The only sticking point is the onboard "Geforce2 Go" graphics. The screen
> locks up if I used the closed-source Nvidia drivers, though the open-source
> "nv" one works fine. I'll have to see if I can get the binary ones working;
> I'm really curious to see if this machine can handle Compiz. :->

Update the BIOS and try disabling obsolete BIOS and video ROM
shadowing, etc.  Also check out:
www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=72897


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 21 20:07:54 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:07:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711211452t10d42b8bt495d512483554064@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<dd889b430711191509l232f1f6biac8de3156a9febf8@mail.gmail.com>	<4742237C.5060006@hotpop.com>	<3b00b3330711201446t75b8f794p7d7d38ce0729e31f@mail.gmail.com>	<47437389.30806@hotpop.com>	<dd889b430711202134y4f2925b4qedf8a177ad04328c@mail.gmail.com>	<47446566.6080600@comcast.net>
	<b02c40e90711211452t10d42b8bt495d512483554064@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4744D66A.8000400@comcast.net>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2007 12:05 PM, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>   
>
> www.vhemt.org

Them first I say,

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From micorral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 21 22:36:03 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:36:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711212053090.4788@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-21, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
>> From: Robert Adkins
>> 	Like instead of just files represented as boxes, there could be
>> files represented with 3D Avatars of the user who owns the
>> file wearing some sort of uniform colored to match the group...
>
> Um, (a) this is my first 3D graphics program, and (b) I'm trying to
> make this usable on older hardware - right now I'm getting 30fps, even
> in a directory with hundreds of files, on a ~700MHz box with i810 graphics.

When it comes to writing a file manager, get used to people making
lots of requests. :) No doubt somebody (ahem) will insist that you
include ACL support, so that Linux will be "ready for the desktop"
and "support reasonable security practices". ;)

> But now we've got 3D hardware in
> every computer sold, and we're not really taking advantage of it.

The only thing holding us back are those pesky monitors. :)
Until someone comes up with a device that can produce holograms for
the objects the computer displays, then everything will continue to
be just variations on the same theme (projections of 3-dimensional
objects onto a 2-dimensional screen).

> I'm hoping
> to find a new metaphor, like the 'desktop' was the metaphor of the new, 2D
> graphical world in the 1980s. I won't get it all right; I may not get any of
> it right. But I figure it's worth messing with.

I have my doubts whether it's worth it (until we get hologram monitors).
You could argue that many existing GUI file managers (like Nautilus or
Konqueror) are already 3D: the icons in many cases are "3D", icons and
windows can be placed "behind" others, etc. It's an illusion of 3D,
of course, and all that the "3D" apps like Compiz, etc, do is make
various degrees of better illusions (like adding thin grey gradients
next to images to simulate shadows, or adding perspective angles to
simulate depth). Until the 2D monitor issue is solved, that's what
we're stuck with. And I've noticed that many people who were initially
wild about Compiz got bored with it and went back to their "boring"
old "2D" desktops.

In the case of professional CAD software (like Catia, Unigraphics)
used in, say, automobile design, those illusions are helpful, because
you really *do* need to see what the side of the car you're designing
looks like in relation to the front or back. But for something like a
file manager, do we really need to see what the back of xorg.conf
looks like?

> As an example of how *not* to do it, see tdfsb:
>
> http://www.determinate.net/webdata/seg/tdfsb.html
>
> The file size range is too broad, you can't find small files easily, you
> wind up walking between 'buildings' of large files. Just looking at a file,
> you can't tell much about it except size. A few file types have special
> treatment but in a fun rather than useful way. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not
> knocking his efforts - he's got something actually out there, and well before
> me - but I think that's the wrong underlying metaphor.)

How are you going to handle files of size 0 bytes, since you can't
take the logarithm of 0 to determine the icon height? Even a 1 byte
file would have a height of 0 = log_2 (1), by your sizing scheme.

Also, will the display have a legend for the permission colors, so
you don't have to remember what color corresponds to what permission?
And shouldn't you have colors for setgid and the sticky bit?

> All that being said, the source will be out there soon enough, and if you
> want to add such things, feel free. :->

I'm not knocking your efforts either, I can appreciate the amount of
work you've put into it. It looks interesting. It's no Jfilerunner,
of course :p , but I'll definitely try it out when it's ready.

Michael


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 23:29:32 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:29:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Blogging
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>

I don't have a web site but I decided to finally set up a blog.  I
think it took about a half-hour to set up.  Anyone else have a blog?
jhansonxi.blogspot.com


From wolfger at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 23:38:38 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 23:38:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Blogging
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330711212038k5ee5194bt6a9286b60e354e26@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 21, 2007 11:29 PM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't have a web site but I decided to finally set up a blog.  I
> think it took about a half-hour to set up.  Anyone else have a blog?

Possibly.... ;-)

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov 22 02:09:31 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:09:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Blogging rev A.
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47452B2B.90709@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> I don't have a web site but I decided to finally set up a blog.  I
> think it took about a half-hour to set up.  Anyone else have a blog?

Millions and counting.

> jhansonxi.blogspot.com




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov 22 02:08:56 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:08:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Blogging
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90711212029x39d8f550o5e92c33d02c44e0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47452B08.3080406@hotpop.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> I don't have a web site but I decided to finally set up a blog.  I
> think it took about a half-hour to set up.  Anyone else have a blog?

Nope.

You're the first person on the planet to start one.




From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Thu Nov 22 10:30:52 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:30:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <474369AD.6090707@arb.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<474369AD.6090707@arb.net>
Message-ID: <1195745452.4761.13.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>

 
> Again, back to the topic of discussion. Opportunity for Linux based on
> real total cost of ownership....      
> Are you a tried and True MSCE ?  :-D    I usually don't get slammed so
> hard by Linux people what I talk about Linux, particularly when the
> lack of Windoze security is a factor.

Nope,  I've used LINUX as a desktop, solely (no dual boot) since RedHat
6.2 and AIX before that.  I've administered UNIX & LINUX servers since
LINUX kernel 0.99a.  And I've led a LINUX desktop trial project of over
80 machines.  

But I don't feel the need to shoo-away or conveniently dismiss real
deficiencies in the "product" where I've seen it not live-up to real
user needs.  That isn't how you make better software or solutions.  

I also don't accept nor will savvy business people, the fanboy
mud-slinging and fear mongering of Open Source "advocates" any more than
I do from proprietary vendors.  If Windows is as horrible as many of
these kinds of threads would leave one to believe then commerce in the
United States would be shutting down almost completely on a frequent
basis.  It doesn't, because it isn't  (or actually it is, IMO, but some
simple solutions band-aid the biggest problems - if someone chooses to
pay unholy sums of money for said band-aid, that isn't specifically a
Windows problem.).

There are many aspect of the LINUX OS and related packages that aren't
anywhere near ideal, trying to pooh-pooh those issues will only leave
you with a disappointed, or pissed off, client.

-- 
Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com  Thu Nov 22 10:34:48 2007
From: adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:34:48 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>

> In actual practice in the workplace, I've never seen
> u/g/o rwx to be insufficient for that sort of task.

Wow, and how many groups do you have defined on your system?

> I suppose the CIA would be an exception...but that's a VERY
> special exception.
> Even in the combat environment of Baghdad, ACLs are an
> extremely heavy-handed way of solving the problem (and
> in many ways, even clumsier than u/g/o rwx).

Clumsier than u/g/o? That's just crazy,  u/g/o is what is awkward and
arbitrary.  It is a clear vestige of a time when flexible security
wasn't an issue.

I'm sorry your user's can grasp "permissions".   Even my salespeople
intuitively understand permissions - "that how I can keep that other guy
from diddling with my accounts!"

Adam Tauno Williams, Network & Systems Administrator
Consultant - http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com
Developer - http://www.opengroupware.org



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Nov 22 10:54:33 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 10:54:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>
	<1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711220754x253122a1oc434e5fbc53d30e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 22, 2007 10:34 AM, Adam Tauno Williams
<adamtaunowilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> > In actual practice in the workplace, I've never seen
> > u/g/o rwx to be insufficient for that sort of task.
>
> Wow, and how many groups do you have defined on your system?
>
> > I suppose the CIA would be an exception...but that's a VERY
> > special exception.
> > Even in the combat environment of Baghdad, ACLs are an
> > extremely heavy-handed way of solving the problem (and
> > in many ways, even clumsier than u/g/o rwx).
>
> Clumsier than u/g/o? That's just crazy,  u/g/o is what is awkward and
> arbitrary.  It is a clear vestige of a time when flexible security
> wasn't an issue.

>From my past experiences I can't see where defining more groups
could't handle the same situations as ACLs.  In Windows, I find ACLs
to be an unreliable mess.  I've tried to set up a multiple partiton
scheme in XP the same as is commonly done for Linux whereby the OS is
isolated from the user files.  It failed miserably.  Not only was I
unable to get the ACLs to work properly but redirecting special
folders like My Documents, Favorites, etc. failed because many
programs access them via an absolute path, not relative.  I really
love apps that write user-created documents to the same directory as
the executables.

ACLs are a requirement in Windows because they are the only way to
apply a backwards-compatible security structure on a file system
hierarchy that was historically an uncontrolled mess.  On *nix, if an
app didn't write to /var, /tmp, or /home/<user>, then they couldn't
write because of permissions.  Linux distros either fix or don't
include apps that don't follow the FSH standard and the package rules
and package managers ensure the apps install where they belong with
the correct permissions.

They changed ACL behavior again in Vista along with changing some of
the default accounts and groups.  Nothing like trying to get it right
the fourth time.


From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Nov 22 15:15:17 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:15:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195745452.4761.13.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <560900.9582.qm@web37902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1195517791.5389.17.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<47423720.6000302@arb.net>
	<1195528649.5389.40.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
	<474369AD.6090707@arb.net>
	<1195745452.4761.13.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711221513490.2350@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-22, Monsieur Adam Tauno Williams a ecrit:
> Nope,  I've used LINUX as a desktop, solely (no dual boot) since RedHat
> 6.2 and AIX before that.  I've administered UNIX & LINUX servers since
> LINUX kernel 0.99a.  And I've led a LINUX desktop trial project of over
> 80 machines.

And yet you didn't know that Konqueror could handle ACLs. ;)

Michael


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Nov 22 23:06:54 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 23:06:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACAF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<1195591689.4744.9.camel@WM_ADAM1.morrison.iserv.net>	<47434CCC.8040107@hotpop.com>
	<1195745688.4761.18.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <474651DE.4040401@hotpop.com>

Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
>> In actual practice in the workplace, I've never seen
>> u/g/o rwx to be insufficient for that sort of task.
> 
> Wow, and how many groups do you have defined on your system?
> 

In actual practice, the number of groups needed
is quite small.  Even for an organization as big as
General Motors, the number of non-admin groups
is in the range of a few dozen.

>> I suppose the CIA would be an exception...but that's a VERY
>> special exception.
>> Even in the combat environment of Baghdad, ACLs are an
>> extremely heavy-handed way of solving the problem (and
>> in many ways, even clumsier than u/g/o rwx).
> 
> Clumsier than u/g/o? That's just crazy,  u/g/o is what is awkward and
> arbitrary.  It is a clear vestige of a time when flexible security
> wasn't an issue.

Yes, MUCH clumsier than chowning a file to the proper group.

Especially when individual USERS rotate in and out of
theater, and are even killed unexpectedly, a properly
used group mechanism is much better.

Unfortunately, Windows doesn't even offer this simple,
effective methodology.  The use of ACL's cause me no
end of administrative headaches when I was in Baghdad.
There were times when I was called away from urgent
vehicle communications systems repairs to provide
access to files because, frankly, in practice, users
aren't all that brighht -- they thinkg "A, B, and C"
need access to this file, and don't even consider
what happens when A is on leave, B is off-post on
a mission, and C is also unavailable for whatever
reason (on a mission, wounded and demobilized, etc).
Or then SFC B is requested to work at battalion
headquarters, so now SFC D is the new operations
sergeant, and he needs to be included in the ACLs
for every file that SFC B had access to...

And with M$'s pathetic tools (i.e. basically, NONE),
it just made the whole experience that much worse.


> 
> I'm sorry your user's can grasp "permissions".   Even my salespeople

Oh, they understood permissions.  The problem is, it

> intuitively understand permissions - "that how I can keep that other guy
> from diddling with my accounts!"

I've yet to meet anyone who had difficulty
understanding ANY permission system ... the problem
is what how flexible is the permission system.

ACL's are extremely brittle, and other than places
where Top Secret, Compartmentalized Information rules
are needed, they're an utter pain in the rear to
both admins and users.

Most users would rather just specify that a certain
administrator-maintained list of people be allowed
to look at a file...because they tend to make files
useable by the same GROUPS of people over and over.
The last thing they want to do is have to update
ACL's for large numbers of files, just because one
new person is now supposed to have access to all
of the files, or conversely, the person has moved
on and you don't want that login ID having access
to those files any more.

It's just plain simpler for an admin to edit a
group, say "intel" or "cocdrs" or "bncdrs"
or "125INF" (for, respectively, intelligence,
company commanders, battalion commanders, and
members of 125th infantry).... and when a new
unit comes in, to just re-name the group (say,
from 125INF to 37MP) and update its membership
than to play a never ending ACL administration
game.

I can see ACL's as a good AUGMENTATION of u/g/o,
but it's as a stand-alone security model.




From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov 23 10:38:27 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:38:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711212053090.4788@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael Corral

> When it comes to writing a file manager, get used to people making
> lots of requests. :) No doubt somebody (ahem) will insist that you
> include ACL support, so that Linux will be "ready for the desktop"
> and "support reasonable security practices". ;)

 Yeah, I'm sure there will be plenty of requests. I'm hoping that people
with more 3D experience will start taking roles in the project, frankly.
I've tried to modularize the code so it's fairly easy to work with. (For
a counterexample, tdfsb is all one big source file...)

> > But now we've got 3D hardware in
> > every computer sold, and we're not really taking advantage of it.
> 
> The only thing holding us back are those pesky monitors. :)
> Until someone comes up with a device that can produce holograms for
> the objects the computer displays, then everything will continue to
> be just variations on the same theme (projections of 3-dimensional
> objects onto a 2-dimensional screen).

 Yeah, but people still go to movies. There's still room to grow before
we get to holograms.

> You could argue that many existing GUI file managers (like Nautilus or
> Konqueror) are already 3D: the icons in many cases are "3D", icons and
> windows can be placed "behind" others, etc.

 That's true, and this might be a misguided effort, but I still think there
ought to be a way to apply that power to other means than games and CAD
visualizations.

> How are you going to handle files of size 0 bytes, since you can't
> take the logarithm of 0 to determine the icon height? Even a 1 byte
> file would have a height of 0 = log_2 (1), by your sizing scheme.

  /* Can't take log of zero (empty file). */
  if (file_r_info->file_info->fsize > 1) {
    /* This scale allows the height value to be used for both
       vertex and texture coords. */
    height = log(file_r_info->file_info->fsize) / (10*log(2));
  } else {
    height=0.01; /* Don't have to use polygon offset or anything silly
                    like that. */
  }

> Also, will the display have a legend for the permission colors, so
> you don't have to remember what color corresponds to what permission?

 That'll be configurable, yes.

> And shouldn't you have colors for setgid and the sticky bit?

 I do, listed in the design doc.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

 "Economies don't like step functions." - Dr. Leonard Bieman
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov 23 11:36:06 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:36:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711211519m21ce10f4w9137c3303a7fce06@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACBA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jeff Hanson

> <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> >  The only sticking point is the onboard "Geforce2 Go" graphics.

> Update the BIOS and try disabling obsolete BIOS and video ROM
> shadowing, etc.  Also check out:
> www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=72897

 Thanks for the tips; I was able to update the BIOS (up 10 revisions,
actually) but it didn't change the behavior. It's funny; when it first boots,
it doesn't work, half the screen is Ubuntu orange. If I ctr-alt-backspace to
kill the X server, though, it comes back up fine. OpenGL is accelerated. Gltron
and Planet Penguin Racer run fine, but it's not quite up to BZflag, at least at
any sane resolution.

 It seems to lock up on shutdown, too, as reported in a couple threads. I have
to hold the power button down or yank the power cord to get a complete shutdown.
Still, there are a few options I have yet to try; we'll see how it goes. In any
case... hey, free laptop.

 (BTW... I was actually slightly lucky on the install. I've since discovered
that there can be a race condition if my Ubuntu box is acting as a DHCP server
at the same time as my firewall. You have to PXE-boot, then go disable the
second DHCP server before the installer tries to set up the network.)

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                 (313) 227-2317

 "If we have to live our lives weighing every action, every communication,
  every human contact, wondering what agents of the state might find out
 about it, analyze it, judge it, possibly misconstrue it, and somehow use
    it to our detriment, we are not truly free. That sort of life is
 characteristic of totalitarian countries, not a free and open society..."
         -  George Radwanski, Privacy Commissioner of Canada 
        http://www.privcom.gc.ca/information/ar/02_04_10_e.asp
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 23 11:51:31 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:51:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711212053090.4788@banana.sluggo.net>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <5aa434200711230851y3fce0fc6y204c46d27ec41af4@mail.gmail.com>

While you're at it, if a file is deleted while you're in the directory (so
that it's in your field of vision), a little gremlin should come running by,
eat it, and run off.

On a slightly less stupid note, have you considered being able to manipulate
files as well? For example, maybe I can walk over to a file, pick it up, and
walk over to some other directory, and put it down, thus moving the file.
Cleaning up my mess of a home directory might be more fun if I can lie to my
brain and say it's a game :)

- Mike

On Nov 23, 2007 10:38 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
wrote:

> > From: Michael Corral
>
> > When it comes to writing a file manager, get used to people making
> > lots of requests. :) No doubt somebody (ahem) will insist that you
> > include ACL support, so that Linux will be "ready for the desktop"
> > and "support reasonable security practices". ;)
>
>  Yeah, I'm sure there will be plenty of requests. I'm hoping that people
> with more 3D experience will start taking roles in the project, frankly.
> I've tried to modularize the code so it's fairly easy to work with. (For
> a counterexample, tdfsb is all one big source file...)
>
> > > But now we've got 3D hardware in
> > > every computer sold, and we're not really taking advantage of it.
> >
> > The only thing holding us back are those pesky monitors. :)
> > Until someone comes up with a device that can produce holograms for
> > the objects the computer displays, then everything will continue to
> > be just variations on the same theme (projections of 3-dimensional
> > objects onto a 2-dimensional screen).
>
>  Yeah, but people still go to movies. There's still room to grow before
> we get to holograms.
>
> > You could argue that many existing GUI file managers (like Nautilus or
> > Konqueror) are already 3D: the icons in many cases are "3D", icons and
> > windows can be placed "behind" others, etc.
>
>  That's true, and this might be a misguided effort, but I still think
> there
> ought to be a way to apply that power to other means than games and CAD
> visualizations.
>
> > How are you going to handle files of size 0 bytes, since you can't
> > take the logarithm of 0 to determine the icon height? Even a 1 byte
> > file would have a height of 0 = log_2 (1), by your sizing scheme.
>
>  /* Can't take log of zero (empty file). */
>  if (file_r_info->file_info->fsize > 1) {
>    /* This scale allows the height value to be used for both
>       vertex and texture coords. */
>    height = log(file_r_info->file_info->fsize) / (10*log(2));
>  } else {
>    height=0.01; /* Don't have to use polygon offset or anything silly
>                    like that. */
>  }
>
> > Also, will the display have a legend for the permission colors, so
> > you don't have to remember what color corresponds to what permission?
>
>  That'll be configurable, yes.
>
> > And shouldn't you have colors for setgid and the sticky bit?
>
>  I do, listed in the design doc.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Economies don't like step functions." - Dr. Leonard Bieman
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose
> it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately
> and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
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> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
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From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Nov 23 12:14:59 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 12:14:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Linux Lite: 5 Tiny Distros That Pack A Big Bang
In-Reply-To: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200711201748.02680.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <47470A93.30200@comcast.net>

Stan Green wrote:
> Here is an article from Information Week that I thought some here might find 
> interesting. 
>
>   

Yes, it was useful.  I have DSL myself but have yet to play wit h it.  I
think I have Puppy too.  Need to get the lab machine clear and working
again.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From rrclark at rrclark.net  Fri Nov 23 13:57:36 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:57:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <83444.59422.qm@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0711231355190.11604@rich.rrclark.net>

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, David Lane wrote:

> Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from a 
> Windows pc?

I'm using Xming (http://sourceforge.net/projects/xming). Combined with 
putty, which you can download from the same repository, it works 
wonderfully. I often swap between 2 laptops, one running Ubuntu, the other 
XP, and I'll start X apps hosted on the Ubuntu laptop via SSH with extreme 
ease on the XP laptop.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Fri Nov 23 14:02:27 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:02:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
References: <b67fb0380711190705q673b64e5w75490f45d2a551c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<4741EA89.9080703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0711231359340.11604@rich.rrclark.net>

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007, Garry Stahl wrote:
> I simply seriously object to having something I do not want shoved down
> my throat.  I can't buy a new laptop for example without paying the
> Vista Tax.  I want a new laptop and really need one.  But there is that
> Vista tax and it really sticks in my craw.

I just bought my son a laptop for his birthday via Dell's website. Offered 
were some pretty powerful Inspiron models installed with XP. You can guess 
what we chose. When it arrives I'll probably reformat the hard drive and
reinstall XP in one partition and Ubuntu or Mandriva in several other 
partitions.

You can also order similar models with Ubuntu only installed, and I'm 
typing on a Dell Inspiron 1420 that came factory-installed with Ubuntu. 
I've had zero problems with this laptop.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 23 16:59:18 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 16:59:18 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACBA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <b02c40e90711211519m21ce10f4w9137c3303a7fce06@mail.gmail.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACBA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711231359n515733feube93d13a391656bc@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 23, 2007 11:36 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  It seems to lock up on shutdown, too, as reported in a couple threads. I have
> to hold the power button down or yank the power cord to get a complete shutdown.
> Still, there are a few options I have yet to try; we'll see how it goes. In any
> case... hey, free laptop.

Could be an ACPI or APIC bug.  There are kernel options for disabling APIC, etc.


From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Nov 23 19:22:04 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:22:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20071119201149.7F3851412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071119201149.7F3851412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <47476EAC.5020902@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> What about the company "Emperor Linux" or something.
>
> They advertise in one of the Linux rags. They sell laptops with Linux
> pre-installed. They might have some that lack the "Vista tax".
>   

I'm looking over their offerings and while not the cheapest in town they
are offering three year warranties, and distro of your choice.  Debian
to Unbuntu.  I think I'll explore their options further.  Man I would
love to get a SuSE loaded laptop right out of the box, tweaked to he
hardware it runs on.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Thu Nov 22 21:04:33 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 21:04:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Fashion-sensitive buys unix (iMac)
Message-ID: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>

Trend watchers,

A friend who for the last decade has been a staunch Microsoft and
Windows advocate just knowingly bought an iMac, after last year
(unknowingly) buying a linux-inside box.

This friend is a reliable indicator of what is fashionable.
For over a decade they have disparaged unix,
multiple desktops, permission systems,
and in particular both Mac and linux,
as "criminal" and "unusable".
The sudden change comes as a shock,
and within my experience,
a reliable indicator of change in social standing.

My fear is that they generally accept anything only after it has
become monopolized with a crippling markup.
I hope that linux is not so destined.

Astoundly reporting,
-- 
Robert Meier

  "In theory, theory and practice are the same.
   In practice, they are different."
		-- unknown


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Thu Nov 22 20:39:45 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 20:39:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <5aa434200711230851y3fce0fc6y204c46d27ec41af4@mail.gmail.com>
	(unforgiven24@gmail.com)
References: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711212053090.4788@banana.sluggo.net>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<5aa434200711230851y3fce0fc6y204c46d27ec41af4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071123013945.A362F21EA4F@starfox.local>

Ray,

> While you're at it, if a file is deleted while you're in the directory (so
> that it's in your field of vision), a little gremlin should come running by,
> eat it, and run off.

Consider adding (disabled by default) ability to run scripts
based on file system state changes.  This could include files that are
growing "bubbling like lava" (in keeping with your hot -> cool change
meter).

I suspect that an interface to run scripts should be something to think
about now, and add in the next release.

My $0.02,
-- 
Robert Meier

"Freedom is freedom only if it also applies
 for the one who thinks differently."
     -- Rosa Luxemburg



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 00:14:22 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 00:14:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fashion-sensitive buys unix (iMac)
In-Reply-To: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
References: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711232114x6efaa261u37db023828270524@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 22, 2007 9:04 PM, Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> Trend watchers,
>
> A friend who for the last decade has been a staunch Microsoft and
> Windows advocate just knowingly bought an iMac, after last year
> (unknowingly) buying a linux-inside box.

For the masses no amount of usability studies, cost/benefit analysis,
security aspects, and stability comparisons can have as much impact as
just being "trendy".  It's a fundamental property of being a sheep -
don't do anything risky but don't be left behind when the rest of the
herd jumps off a cliff.


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 01:15:04 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 01:15:04 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fashion-sensitive buys unix (iMac)
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711232114x6efaa261u37db023828270524@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
	<b02c40e90711232114x6efaa261u37db023828270524@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430711232215r1d55437bhbca74691a5fd1829@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 24, 2007 12:14 AM, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 22, 2007 9:04 PM, Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> > Trend watchers,
> >
> > A friend who for the last decade has been a staunch Microsoft and
> > Windows advocate just knowingly bought an iMac, after last year
> > (unknowingly) buying a linux-inside box.
>
> For the masses no amount of usability studies, cost/benefit analysis,
> security aspects, and stability comparisons can have as much impact as
> just being "trendy".  It's a fundamental property of being a sheep -
> don't do anything risky but don't be left behind when the rest of the
> herd jumps off a cliff.
>

Well put, Jeff.  Well put.

-Joseph


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov 23 22:53:36 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:53:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fashion-sensitive buys unix (iMac)
In-Reply-To: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
References: <20071123020433.8426221EA50@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <4747A040.1090808@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Trend watchers,
> 
> A friend who for the last decade has been a staunch Microsoft and
> Windows advocate just knowingly bought an iMac, after last year
> (unknowingly) buying a linux-inside box.

Technically, it's BSD-inside, but yes, it is a *nix ;-)

> This friend is a reliable indicator of what is fashionable.
> For over a decade they have disparaged unix,
> multiple desktops, permission systems,
> and in particular both Mac and linux,
> as "criminal" and "unusable".
> The sudden change comes as a shock,
> and within my experience,
> a reliable indicator of change in social standing.
> 
> My fear is that they generally accept anything only after it has
> become monopolized with a crippling markup.
> I hope that linux is not so destined.
> 
> Astoundly reporting,





From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Nov 24 08:07:54 2007
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:07:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <955471.65440.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200711240807.58139.davidl@lmert.com>

On Tuesday 20 November 2007 10:10, David Lane wrote:
> I have a mixed environment both PC and Linux. And I'm about to implement
> web, data, and email servers.
>
> So yes  Full Remotes for both from both.

Ray mentioned Cygwin/X.  I use this daily at work; I usually have one emacs 
process running on my Linux workstation, and select "File > Open Frame on New 
Display..." to display it on my Windows workstation as well.

In the other direction, you can use the Linux client for the Remote Desktop 
Protocol (the wrapper-package on Ubuntu is called "tsclient").  

In either direction,  you can use VNC.

If you just want to execute text-only programs (for instance to start/stop 
services, "net start" on Windows and "/etc/init.d/... start" on Linux) you 
can use SSH.  Cygwin has an SSH server and client;  I'm pretty sure that 
Microsoft Services for Unix does too.  However,  I usually use PuTTY as an 
SSH client from Windows.

> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:26:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
>
> David Lane wrote:
> > Is there a windows GUI resource that Allows you to Linux Remote from
>
>  a
>
> > Windows pc?
> >
> > David
>
> Do you mean a full remote desktop, of just running individual GUI
> applications remotely? For the later some might recommend cygwin, but I
> have no experience with that. But you might try ssh -X from Damn Small
> Linux running in a VMware player session.
>
> It seems to work quite well, I trying it out right now. I'm composing
> this message while sitting at my laptop in my living room. Thunderbird
> is running on a computer in my basement but displaying in a DSL window
> in on Vista.
>
> I'm not sure what facilities cygwin provides but if you just need a
> local X environment for the display of remote applications this seems
> like a good way to go.
>
> Raymond McLaughlin
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>_________ Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you
> with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. 
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From newmaniese at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 19:49:53 2007
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael Newman)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:49:53 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
Message-ID: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

I am new to the area and the group and have been really enjoyed the  
topics of the last few weeks, and I need a bit of advice from you  
experts as I am moving my work experience of Linux to my personal  
network and day-to-day computing.

Yesterday was black Friday, and looking at sales we saw quite a few  
printers that were really great. My home network is all connected to  
base ubuntu server 7.10 and my current lexmark x7100 series, which  
worked great on my old Windows network that I am desperately getting  
rid of, doesn't have any support according to internet searches.

I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the  
scanners work well too? How do they work in a shared environment? What  
level of difficulty work it take to install this on my network? Has  
anyone done this with an hp printer? Lastly, but not least, anyone  
have any recommendations of a linux compatable scanner/printer/copier  
that prints photographs (high quality).

Thanks,

Michael Newman


From tony at bemushosting.com  Sat Nov 24 20:37:34 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:37:34 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
In-Reply-To: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
References: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1195954655.14110.11.camel@bemus-tony>

I have a HP PSC-1210 printer/copier/scanner and My Ubuntu desktop
recognized it with no problems, both the printer and the scanner.
  I shared the printer out with samba for my wife's laptop and my XP VM.
I had to find some alternate drivers (HP 3420) for windows to use it
across the network.  I then shared the drivers to make it easy to get to
the drivers from windows.

Tony


On Sat, 2007-11-24 at 19:49 -0500, Michael Newman wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am new to the area and the group and have been really enjoyed the  
> topics of the last few weeks, and I need a bit of advice from you  
> experts as I am moving my work experience of Linux to my personal  
> network and day-to-day computing.
> 
> Yesterday was black Friday, and looking at sales we saw quite a few  
> printers that were really great. My home network is all connected to  
> base ubuntu server 7.10 and my current lexmark x7100 series, which  
> worked great on my old Windows network that I am desperately getting  
> rid of, doesn't have any support according to internet searches.
> 
> I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the  
> scanners work well too? How do they work in a shared environment? What  
> level of difficulty work it take to install this on my network? Has  
> anyone done this with an hp printer? Lastly, but not least, anyone  
> have any recommendations of a linux compatable scanner/printer/copier  
> that prints photographs (high quality).
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Michael Newman
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
-- 
Tony Bemus
Bemus Hosting
www.bemushosting.com



From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Nov 24 20:59:11 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:59:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
In-Reply-To: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
References: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711242044330.3421@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-24, Monsieur Michael Newman a ecrit:
> Yesterday was black Friday, and looking at sales we saw quite a few
> printers that were really great. My home network is all connected to
> base ubuntu server 7.10 and my current lexmark x7100 series, which
> worked great on my old Windows network that I am desperately getting
> rid of, doesn't have any support according to internet searches.

You could try the drivers for the 7200 or 7000. Those come with CUPS.
Worst case you can try importing the Windows .ppd file for the 7100,
most distros have a printer configuartion GUI that lets you do that.

> I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the
> scanners work well too? How do they work in a shared environment? What
> level of difficulty work it take to install this on my network? Has
> anyone done this with an hp printer? Lastly, but not least, anyone
> have any recommendations of a linux compatable scanner/printer/copier
> that prints photographs (high quality).

I have an HP laserjet hooked up to my router via JetDirect, so all
the computers on my home LAN, regardless of OS, can use it without
needing a dedicated print server that's always on. It was dead simple
to set up in Fedora.

Michael


From gib at juno.com  Sat Nov 24 22:10:31 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 03:10:31 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Forrester Linux vs XP
Message-ID: <20071124.221031.20543.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com>

 
 
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2217087,00.asp


_____________________________________________________________
Turn your website into a store with great shopping cart services. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieUEHhb6f7pakMYivEuX2g8oQ4wNK0dP2ESvCEIRXCCYdAKQ/


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 22:25:06 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:25:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
In-Reply-To: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
References: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711241925s5293b11cxf843a07c474b22@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 24, 2007 7:49 PM, Michael Newman <newmaniese at gmail.com> wrote:
> I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the
> scanners work well too? How do they work in a shared environment? What
> level of difficulty work it take to install this on my network? Has
> anyone done this with an hp printer? Lastly, but not least, anyone
> have any recommendations of a linux compatable scanner/printer/copier
> that prints photographs (high quality).

I picked up some at BF.  I just started testing them.  The list is in my blog:
http://jhansonxi.blogspot.com/2007/11/my-linux-aspected-black-friday-assault.html


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 03:15:31 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:15:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] New Linus interview
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711260015s45bf0087p445b2d0c3c9c37f3@mail.gmail.com>

InformationWeek interview:
"Torvalds On Where Linux Is Headed In 2008"
<http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=204202971>

~~ Mikey


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 08:33:52 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:33:52 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Cups printer/scanner
In-Reply-To: <FF3631B1-CC7D-4D5C-A73B-49B94D0677FC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACBF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael Newman

> I know there are drivers that work with hp printers, but do the  
> scanners work well too?

 Yup, no problems. We have an HP 3201xi and it scans and prints very well under
Linux. On glossy paper, pictures look very good indeed - indistinguishable from
those you'd get at the drugstore or whatever.

 (As a bonus... the Windows driver software is, I kid you not, 800MB in size.
On Linux, it's <10MB.)

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                 (313) 227-2317

 The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable
  operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying
          to take over the world.  - Drakmere
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From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 08:34:28 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:34:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>

And back to the original post... I played it and it is pretty fun. At 
$20 online, I think I'll pass for now, but maybe in the future. Since 
sound doesn't work in linux on my laptop, I tried the Windows version in 
Vista and it actually works. Interestingly enough, it seems like the 
game was made by a few computer geeks who formed a small company. They 
make a few other games (cross-compatible) which I'm going to try soon 
also. At $4 a pop, that's a steal IMO.

Well, I'm in my programming class now, and it's back to acting like I'm 
paying attention like I haven't taken the class twice before.

Try the demo out. You might like it.

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> This weekend I saw the Windows version of the game Darwinia on sale at our local
> Big Lots store for $4. The game has a native Linux executable for download, and runs
> wonderfully in Linux. It's an interesting game, and isn't like the usual stuff. It
> also has a unique look, simple but pleasing graphics. For that price, I think it's
> well worth picking up. I got it for full price when it came out and I don't feel
> cheated. As a bonus, it doesn't take up GB of space on disk; the environments are
> fractal and the data files small.
>   


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 08:38:15 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:38:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Very early screenshots for my "first person filemanager"
In-Reply-To: <20071123013945.A362F21EA4F@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC0@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Meier

> Consider adding (disabled by default) ability to run scripts
> based on file system state changes.  This could include files that are
> growing "bubbling like lava" (in keeping with your hot -> cool change
> meter).
> 
> I suspect that an interface to run scripts should be 
> something to think about now, and add in the next release.

 There will be a way to do that. Linux has an interface called 'inotify'
which can watch for filesystem changes and notify an app without polling. I'll
be adding that once I've got the basics finished up. As soon as you can actually
take a tour of the filesystem, walk around and visit various directories, I'll
be posting the source code.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith
       does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 08:57:57 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:57:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
Message-ID: <474AD0E5.50007@gmail.com>

Was: "A big opportunity for Linux?"

I've set up VNC manually before, and I have run a free X client in 
Windows to spit out stuff from my X server over the network through a 
SSH session (works very fast, forgot what the software was called). By 
far the easiest solution I have come across is NoMachine 
(www.nomachine.com). You set it up on the linux box as the server, throw 
in an IP address or hostname on your Windows client, and it works. The 
"NX Free Edition" for linux (from what I remember) is a server and 
client package, which you will install on your linux box. Then you get 
the Windows client (also free) to connect to the server. The only 
problems I've had with it were when I was trying to connect to Oakand 
University's server with the newest client. When I set it up at home 
though, using the newest version on both computers worked pretty well. 
It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation and everything 
should be fine. It's pretty darn fast over the Internet. I just wish 
that it wouldn't create a new X server session. I'd like to use the 
current running session, but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.

Now if only there was a LogMeIn server for linux (www.logmein.com). I 
love that stuff.



From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 26 09:38:25 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:38:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
Message-ID: <20071126144513.674581412E@impelind.com>

	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically ignoring the WiFi
adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It has a "Dell Truemobile 1300"
wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.

	I went to the NDISwrapper site, read through the wiki a bit and
found an excellent listing of what cards/drivers are supposed to work.
(Which also included links to those drivers.)

	The removal of the non-working opensource bcm4xx driver and
installation of the ndiswrapper with Windows driver went smoothly. I fired
up kwifi and voila! I was able to show a signal, scan and see my WPA
configured wifi router and... Nothin..

	I entered my passkey as the kwifi did correctly identify the
necessary configuration. Unfortunately, that didn't work. The wpa_supplicant
fired up, still nothing worked.

	As a test, I temporarily set the wifi router into an open, no
authentication needed setup and I was able to connect without any problem.

	Right now, I am assuming that there is some issue with the Windows
driver that isn't allowing the wpa_supplicant to properly do its job. It may
also be that the wifi router (Linksys WRT54G) is setup in a way that the
driver I am using just can't grok and thus needs to be configured using a
different WPA setup.

	Anyone in a similar situation and have a few pointers?

	Really, I have no problem with plugging the laptop into the wall
jacks at home. As it stands, I should be able to connect fine to the free
wifi setups at coffee shops and other locations. I would really enjoy being
able to use my wifi anywhere in the house.

	Thanks for any assistance,	
	
	Rob



From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Nov 26 10:54:57 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:54:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] A big opportunity for Linux?
In-Reply-To: <1195745452.4761.13.camel@aleph.morrison.iserv.net>
Message-ID: <20071126160145.3E3161412E@impelind.com>


> 
> Nope,  I've used LINUX as a desktop, solely (no dual boot) 
> since RedHat
> 6.2 and AIX before that.  I've administered UNIX & LINUX 
> servers since LINUX kernel 0.99a.  And I've led a LINUX 
> desktop trial project of over 80 machines.  
> 

	Is this project one in which you pushed GNOME and then later
discovered it lacked the key feature (ACL options in Nautilus) that a client
required?

>
> But I don't feel the need to shoo-away or conveniently 
> dismiss real deficiencies in the "product" where I've seen it 
> not live-up to real user needs.  That isn't how you make 
> better software or solutions.  
> 

	This is a Linux USERS Group. 

	As a single group, we have nothing to do with the development models
or practices set forth and observed by any independent group providing a
Linux software solution. All we realistically can do is observe what is
available, comment on other solutions that are available and suggest
alternatives that may suit one's needs better than a particular offering
provides. This is of course ignoring the fact that any single member here
could actually have membership in a group that does provide development work
on product(s) in question. If someone here happens to have such an outside
membership, maybe he/she could/should become involved in working out such an
issue.

	Anyway, with that in mind, we certainly can shoo-away and
"conveniently dismiss real definciencies" (especially in an offering that
never aimed to provide such functions in the first place) and recommend
alternatives that actually do provide the needed functionality. That's what
we are here for, it's just part and parcel of what a LUG is all about.

	If you want to talk to people who aren't supposed to be shooing away
deficiencies, then the best practice would be to take the argument to those
who actually have a stake in the product. (This isn't always the distributor
of the particular Linux OS you are looking at.)

	For example, you dislike GNOME's Nautilus offering lacking ACL
support? Take it to the GNOME mailing list and present your case to the
GNOME Nautilus development group. If they shoo the problem away, then you
can point to them and call them names and or get all disgruntled over what
they are "supposed" to be doing. (Which is work towards providing the best
damn desktop, ever. From what I understand.)

	Going on about such things here, just feels like FUD, regardless of
what you have done for the past 10 to 20 years professionally. This is the
place to discuss solutions and alternatives to niggling issues, not the
place to talk about how an extremely tight set of circumstances somehow
makes Linux unsuitable for the desktop.

	Tight sets of circumstances can be put together to make practically
anything wholly unsuited to a given purpose.

>
> I also don't accept nor will savvy business people, the 
> fanboy mud-slinging and fear mongering of Open Source 
> "advocates" any more than I do from proprietary vendors.  If 
> Windows is as horrible as many of these kinds of threads 
> would leave one to believe then commerce in the United States 
> would be shutting down almost completely on a frequent basis. 
>  It doesn't, because it isn't  (or actually it is, IMO, but 
> some simple solutions band-aid the biggest problems - if 
> someone chooses to pay unholy sums of money for said 
> band-aid, that isn't specifically a Windows problem.).
> 

	I concur.

	Windows isn't so terrible that the business world is mere seconds
away from grinding to a complete halt. That still doesn't make Windows the
perfect gem of an OS that many fanboy mud-slinging and fear mongering
Windows "advocates" put forward. Windows just happens to have the largest
marketshare due to proven abuse of monopoly powers by Microsoft and happens
to be "good enough" to do the job many people need.	

>
> There are many aspect of the LINUX OS and related packages 
> that aren't anywhere near ideal, trying to pooh-pooh those 
> issues will only leave you with a disappointed, or pissed off, client.
> 

	Of course, setting up a client with configurations that are far from
ideal, either by failing to anticipate the needs or wants can go a long way
towards making a client feel disappointed or pissed off.

	...and don't even get me started on that BS that some software
vendors have of changing absolutely everything for no really strong reason
and then ignoring the fact that such changes will cause endless support
headaches as users who were used to one way of doing things suddenly finds
that way impossible or simply missing. (I am looking at MS and their OS
interface changes from Win2K to WinXP and Office 97 to Office 2000 to Office
XP. Those changes caused and sometimes still give me grief here in the
office from the same users time and time again.)

	-Rob



From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 11:24:54 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:24:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: squid question
In-Reply-To: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
References: <473D0D94.50409@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <474AF356.8070801@gmail.com>

I personally have not done filtering in squid except for a couple 
ad-blocking programs that work along-side of it. If you want to skip 
trying to configure squid for filtering but would still like to use it 
as a caching proxy server, you may be able to do the old hosts file 
trick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosts_file#Ad_filtering). If 
everyone needs to go through the server, this may work, but I'm sure 
people could just change their DNS server to bypass it if you don't 
block DNS from coming in. I'm not quite sure if it would work, but it may.

You may want to look at this instead though -> 
http://calomel.org/squid_adservers.html
It briefly shows you how to use a separate file for all of the rules, 
and download the rules automatically so you don't have to write them 
yourself. This is of course for blocking ads, but you can use your own 
rules exclusively or append your own so that it blocks ads and 
illegitimate websites.

Dean Durant wrote:
> Hello, here's what I maybe should have asked:
>
> A user goes to a site, some hotel site.   Nothing wrong yet.   She wants
> to check on the availability of certain rooms for certain dates.   There
> are drop down menus where she can put in the dates she wants to check.  
> She clicks 'Submit' and then gets a 'denied' page saying the page is
> blocked.  The URL has not changed.   I can check the access log and the
> URL is the same.   So why did it get blocked?   All I can see that squid
> does is block by domain name.   I know it can also block by regex, and I
> saw something in the squid.conf file about "query cache cgi-bin /;
> Deny query" (not sure of the syntax).   What is that last one about?  
> I've spent some time studying the syntax of the squid.conf file.   No,
> it doesn't look that hard but I have other things to do.   I mean, I get
> to the ACL section, and there are all these entries, yes it's true, the
> last person probably did not document it that well.    I guess, I feel
> under the gun to learn it quickly.   Sorry if I seem lazy.   I guess I
> can buy the O'Reilly squid book and study it over the Holiday break.   
> Well, thanks for reading.  
>   



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 12:51:12 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:51:12 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Ubuntu PXE install
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711231359n515733feube93d13a391656bc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC3@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jeff Hanson

> <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> >  It seems to lock up on shutdown, too, as reported in a couple threads.

> Could be an ACPI or APIC bug.  There are kernel options for 
> disabling APIC, etc.

 Nah, the kernel module options listed in the first thread you pointed out solved
it. It now starts up and shuts down cleanly. It's a pretty fun little machine; I've
been enjoying getting some games going on it.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                           (313) 227-2317

  "The Justice Department lifted a requirement Monday that the FBI
  ensure the accuracy and timeliness of information about criminals
      and crime victims before adding it to the country's most
        comprehensive law enforcement database." (03/24/2003)
 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22955-2003Mar25.html

 A case of mistaken identity led the FBI to detain a British retiree
       in a South African jail for three weeks. (02/28/2003)
          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2799791.stm
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From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 13:34:15 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:34:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

I have a niece who really wants to play "Sims 2", but her computer's a 1GHz
PIII with onboard Intel graphics, and that's not enough. The game wants either
an 800MHz processor and a video card w/Hardware T&L, or else a 2GHz processor.
There aren't any AGP slots in her computer.

 I have an AGP card - the above listed Geforce2 MX 200 w/32MB VRAM - but that
does her little good. I'm hoping to trade that card for a Geforce-level video
card with a PCI (not PCI-Express!) interface. Does anyone have a card like that
lying around that they would be willing to trade for?

 As an alternative, I have a motherboard with an AGP slot, but it takes Slot 1
CPUs and I only have a 450MHz PIII for that one. Does anyone have a faster
Slot 1 CPU they'd be willing to trade for? Thanks...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317
 
 "I'm almost seventy percent sure it does nothing harmful."
         - http://www.ubersoft.net/d/20040115.html
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 13:55:00 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:55:00 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <474AD0E5.50007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Kristoffer Marshall

> It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation and everything 
> should be fine. It's pretty darn fast over the Internet. I just wish 
> that it wouldn't create a new X server session. I'd like to use the 
> current running session, but I haven't seen anything like 
> that for linux.

 There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.

 Even works for Windows, given an X server running on Windows, like xming
or Cygwin's X server.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317

 "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
     21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
                            Steven Waldman
     http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 13:42:58 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:42:58 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Forrester Linux vs XP
In-Reply-To: <20071124.221031.20543.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC5@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: gib at juno.com

> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2217087,00.asp

 Amusing. These research groups have always lowballed their estimates of Linux
penetration and then been shown up later. From what I recall, Forrester has
been the least pessimistic, though.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                     (313) 227-2317

 "The whole principle is wrong; it's like demanding that grown
    men live on skim milk because the baby can't eat steak."
             - Robert A. Heinlein on censorship.
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From admin at linuxtechdaily.com  Mon Nov 26 14:12:45 2007
From: admin at linuxtechdaily.com (Rich Hughes)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:12:45 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <474B1AAD.2020501@linuxtechdaily.com>

I have an ATI Rage 128 PCI card just sitting around. I'd be happy to let 
you have it, no charge, if it meets your requirements.

Back in the day that card was awesome on Linux.

Thanks,
Rich Hughes


Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> I have a niece who really wants to play "Sims 2", but her computer's a 1GHz
> PIII with onboard Intel graphics, and that's not enough. The game wants either
> an 800MHz processor and a video card w/Hardware T&L, or else a 2GHz processor.
> There aren't any AGP slots in her computer.
>
>  I have an AGP card - the above listed Geforce2 MX 200 w/32MB VRAM - but that
> does her little good. I'm hoping to trade that card for a Geforce-level video
> card with a PCI (not PCI-Express!) interface. Does anyone have a card like that
> lying around that they would be willing to trade for?
>
>  As an alternative, I have a motherboard with an AGP slot, but it takes Slot 1
> CPUs and I only have a 450MHz PIII for that one. Does anyone have a faster
> Slot 1 CPU they'd be willing to trade for? Thanks...
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317
>  
>  "I'm almost seventy percent sure it does nothing harmful."
>          - http://www.ubersoft.net/d/20040115.html
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 14:42:47 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:42:47 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <474B1AAD.2020501@linuxtechdaily.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Rich Hughes

> I have an ATI Rage 128 PCI card just sitting around. I'd be happy to let 
> you have it, no charge, if it meets your requirements.

 I greatly appreciate the offer, but Sims 2 needs "Hardware Transform &
Lighting"; an ATI Radeon 7200 or above, or an Nvidia Geforce or above would
be needed. :-<

> Back in the day that card was awesome on Linux.

 I have a PCI Rage Pro that did my first 3D stuff for Linux. Got Quake running
pretty well, but it wasn't until the TNT card that things really got going. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                         (313) 227-2317

      "If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color."
                          - Anonymous
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 15:13:42 2007
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:13:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video	card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

 I greatly appreciate the offer, but Sims 2 needs "Hardware Transform &
> Lighting"; an ATI Radeon 7200 or above, or an Nvidia Geforce or above would
> be needed. :-<

I have an ATI Radeon 9550 if you want it :D

-Jason
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From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Nov 26 15:26:59 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:26:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Jason

> > I greatly appreciate the offer, but Sims 2 needs "Hardware Transform &
> > Lighting"; an ATI Radeon 7200 or above, or an Nvidia Geforce or above would
> > be needed. :-<
> 
> I have an ATI Radeon 9550 if you want it :D

 Sounds lovely, but it'd have to have a PCI (not PCI-Express) bus, and I
don't think any were made. According to Wikipedia, my only hope with ATI is
a Radeon 7200, 7500, or 9000-9250:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ATI_Graphics_Processing_Units

 I know, picky-picky. I'm trying to be a beggar *and* a chooser. Still, I'm
willing to negotiate trades of other hardware for such a card; I have a desktop
Wifi card (that works with Linux) that I would add to the above Geforce card
in exchange for a PCI Hardware T&L card, or a 800MHz+ Slot 1 CPU.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                       (313) 227-2317

 "...brute-force attacks against 256-bit keys will be infeasable
  until computers are built from something other than matter and
      occupy something other than space." - Bruce Schnier
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 18:52:50 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:52:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711261552t4f99b161v3aa2222fcd79f0e3@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 26, 2007 3:26 PM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  Sounds lovely, but it'd have to have a PCI (not PCI-Express) bus, and I
> don't think any were made. According to Wikipedia, my only hope with ATI is
> a Radeon 7200, 7500, or 9000-9250:

Thanks to Vista, several video card manufacturers have come out with
Nvidia-based PCI adapters in order to take advantage of M$ marketing
BS and the clueless masses who think any PCI-based system will run it
adequately.  Search with Pricegrabber.com:
computers.pricegrabber.com/video-cards/p/5/popup2%5B%5D=2:596


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Nov 26 19:56:20 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:56:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-26, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
>> From: Jason
>> I have an ATI Radeon 9550 if you want it :D
>
> Sounds lovely, but it'd have to have a PCI (not PCI-Express) bus, and I
> don't think any were made. According to Wikipedia, my only hope with ATI is
> a Radeon 7200, 7500, or 9000-9250:

The plain PCI versions of those were not that common. You may have to
spend money on one. I see a PCI 7500 on ebay right now for $19 + s/h.
You may have luck finding a cheap one at MicroCenter in Madison Heights,
I seem to recall seeing a PCI version of some OEM Radeon 7200 there.

I have a 7500 I could part with, but it's AGP. :( I do have some PCI
cards laying around (not ATI), I could try to check if they support
hardware T&L. If so, I wouldn't want to trade for any computer stuff
you have (I have too much as it is!). Instead, I'd want some kind of
pastry from the "fantastic bakery in Livonia, Michigan" that your
wife runs. :)

BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.

Michael


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Sun Nov 25 23:47:40 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:47:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	(Raymond.Ingles@compuware.com)
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071126044740.E5699127C58@starfox.local>

Kristoffer, Ray,

> > It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> > compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation ...
> There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
> and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
> they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.

ssh -X also sets up a new X-server (default :10.0).

> > I just wish that it wouldn't create a new X server session.
> > I'd like to use the current running session,
> > but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.

The ability for remote (including VNC) executables to access an X
server has been part of X since its inception in the 1980s.

<HINT>
If you wish to use the same X-server,
you simply need to inform the executables to address the same X-server.
This is usually done with the --display option or environment variable
DISPLAY.
The address is "<host-or-ip>:<server-no>.<screen-no>" .
Note that you will have to open up the appropriate firewall channels
on BOTH hosts.  Typically this is ports 6000-6030(?).
Use "bash> xhost +<host-as-reported-to-X-server>" to authorize access
to the server.
You may need to copy appropriate ~/.Xauthority cookie to the remote host.
</HINT>

See X(7) for further details.

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Robert Meier

  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
   oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
   will reach to himself."
	--Thomas Paine


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 01:58:38 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:58:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127015550.029811f0@pop.gmail.com>

At 07:56 PM 11/26/07, Michael Corral wrote:

>BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
>rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.

     No need for a video card here; but do you by chance have a PCI serial
card? This would be mildly useful.

----

- Drew.



From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 02:13:46 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:13:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>

     I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of 
memory. There are two
slots, each currently containing a 256M module. The motherboard book 
specification for
memory reads as follows:

DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)

     Now I am currently beginning to see near acceptable prices for 
desktop 1GB modules
in the ads of Best Buy, Office Max, etc. However, how shall I know 
whether the module
will even fit into the slot let alone function without the computer 
going wonky because
of incompatibility? Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard 
now hopelessly
out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)

     Thanks;

   - Drew.



From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Nov 27 00:30:57 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:30:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127015550.029811f0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20071127015550.029811f0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711270029210.5305@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-11-27, Monsieur Drew a ecrit:
> At 07:56 PM 11/26/07, Michael Corral wrote:
>> BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
>> rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.
>
>     No need for a video card here; but do you by chance have a PCI serial
> card?

No. I've never even seen such a thing.

Michael


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 01:58:06 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:58:06 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711262258i4c35eb50lc8f2c700e9508f09@mail.gmail.com>

Drew wrote:
>     I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of
> memory. There are two slots, each currently containing a 256M module.
> DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
> DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)

The referenced RAM is standard DDR memory.  Though the current
standard is DDR2 (with DDR3 just becoming available), first-generation
DDR is still being manufactured and is widely available.  Of course,
faster is better -- but most DDR available currently is 266 or higher.

Now is a REALLY good time to buy RAM, as most manufacturers are about
to cut back their production -- the failure of WinVista in the
marketplace has lead to a glut of RAM module availability, and NOBODY
is making any money on memory -- even Samsung, with their massive
economies of scale, is taking a beating.

Depending somewhat upon the processor and chipset, it's usually a good
idea to fill both slots with RAM that has the same capacity and speed
specifications.

~~ Mikey


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 02:10:15 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:10:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
	w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711262310v6b6f184eta8c58f368541c431@mail.gmail.com>

Raymond Ingles wrote:
> I have a desktop Wifi card (that works with Linux) that I would add to the above
> Geforce card in exchange for a PCI Hardware T&L card, or a 800MHz+ Slot 1 CPU.

Slot-1 CPUs were not made faster than about 600-650 MHZ (to my
knowledge), as the Pentium III's i810 chipset or your niece's i815
chipset are intended for Socket 370 processors.  Your older MB has a
440BX chipset or the older 440LX, neither of which support faster
processors (or SDRAM faster than 66 MHz without overclocking).

You might check with Silicon Alley Recyclers --
www.SiliconAlleyRecyclers.us -- to see if they have anything useful
and cheap...

~~ Mikey


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Nov 27 05:30:56 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:30:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BF1E0.2090704@comcast.net>

Drew wrote:
>      I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of 
> memory. There are two
> slots, each currently containing a 256M module. The motherboard book 
> specification for
> memory reads as follows:
>
> DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
> DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)
>
>      Now I am currently beginning to see near acceptable prices for 
> desktop 1GB modules
> in the ads of Best Buy, Office Max, etc. However, how shall I know 
> whether the module
> will even fit into the slot let alone function without the computer 
> going wonky because
> of incompatibility? Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard 
> now hopelessly
> out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)
>
>   
The DDR200/266 stat.  That tells you the type of memory.  Notch and pin
locations vary.  Fer example if I buy DDR2100 I know it fits Gate.  Mind
you Gate's RAM buying days are over.  All filled and bigger will not matter.

However, I have a par of boxes that would benefit from more RAM stuffed
in same.  Faux and Maestro  could use more each. Both are at 512m and
have lots of room.  One is running XP, and we know how winblows is about
RAM.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Nov 27 06:11:43 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:11:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711262310v6b6f184eta8c58f368541c431@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1196108022.8172.1.camel@bruiser.localdomain>	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<b67fb0380711262310v6b6f184eta8c58f368541c431@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BFB6F.7030206@ameritech.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Raymond Ingles wrote:
>> I have a desktop Wifi card (that works with Linux) that I would add to the above
>> Geforce card in exchange for a PCI Hardware T&L card, or a 800MHz+ Slot 1 CPU.
> 
> Slot-1 CPUs were not made faster than about 600-650 MHZ (to my
> knowledge),

Actually Slot-1 CPUs went up to 1000MHz, in both 100MHz and 133MHZ FSB
varieties. I have one, a 1000/100 as my emergency backup computer. And
if you get this post it's because it was sent to you thru the MDLUG
server, a converted dual 866/133 Dell workstation (OptiPlex iirc).

Additionally  a company called Power-Leap <http://www.powerleap.com/>
offers adapters for running a 1400MHz in a Slot-1 board. They worked
great on several machines. In fact my nephews are still using a machine
with one of those. But of the several I bought two (or three I forget)
quit working after only 2 years. And they are kind of pricey, $150 which
includes a 1400MHz Celeron.


> as the Pentium III's i810 chipset or your niece's i815
> chipset are intended for Socket 370 processors.  Your older MB has a
> 440BX chipset or the older 440LX, neither of which support faster
> processors (or SDRAM faster than 66 MHz without overclocking).
> 
> You might check with Silicon Alley Recyclers --
> www.SiliconAlleyRecyclers.us -- to see if they have anything useful
> and cheap...

Last time I checked, about a year ago, Micro-center had servicable
Ge-Force PCi cards for ~$40.

> ~~ Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Nov 27 06:20:36 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 06:20:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BFD84.3030200@ameritech.net>

Drew wrote:
>      I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of 
> memory. There are two
> slots, each currently containing a 256M module. The motherboard book 
> specification for
> memory reads as follows:
> 
> DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
> DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)

I recommend you go to www.crucial.com and use their "Memory Advisor?
tool". Select your make and model motherboard from the series of drop
downs, and then compare the recommended memory to what you have above.
They typically have good prices too.

>      Thanks;
> 
>    - Drew.

Raymond McLaughlin


From starline at wideopenwest.com  Tue Nov 27 07:00:02 2007
From: starline at wideopenwest.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:00:02 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474C06C2.7030009@wideopenwest.com>

Drew wrote:
  Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard
> now hopelessly
> out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)
> 

I have received good prices & service from:
http://www.oempcworld.com/

They have tools for finding memory for your motherboard plus lots of 
other info.

BD


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Tue Nov 27 09:32:54 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:32:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <C37194C6.5006A%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Sorry to go on a tangent on a discussion already marked OT, but:

Did someone say something about tasty, delicious pastries?

Greg


On 11/26/07 7:56 PM, "Michael Corral" <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-11-26, Monsieur Ingles, Raymond a ecrit:
>>> From: Jason
>>> I have an ATI Radeon 9550 if you want it :D
>> 
>> Sounds lovely, but it'd have to have a PCI (not PCI-Express) bus, and I
>> don't think any were made. According to Wikipedia, my only hope with ATI is
>> a Radeon 7200, 7500, or 9000-9250:
> 
> The plain PCI versions of those were not that common. You may have to
> spend money on one. I see a PCI 7500 on ebay right now for $19 + s/h.
> You may have luck finding a cheap one at MicroCenter in Madison Heights,
> I seem to recall seeing a PCI version of some OEM Radeon 7200 there.
> 
> I have a 7500 I could part with, but it's AGP. :( I do have some PCI
> cards laying around (not ATI), I could try to check if they support
> hardware T&L. If so, I wouldn't want to trade for any computer stuff
> you have (I have too much as it is!). Instead, I'd want some kind of
> pastry from the "fantastic bakery in Livonia, Michigan" that your
> wife runs. :)
> 
> BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
> rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.
> 
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From danno at umich.edu  Tue Nov 27 10:15:23 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 10:15:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <20071126044740.E5699127C58@starfox.local>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<20071126044740.E5699127C58@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <20071127151523.GC35525@maniac.deathstar.org>

The problem with remotely displaying X applications is that the x11
protocol is just too chatty to be used over anything but a LAN.
Performance really sucks even on short WAN hops.  from my office
to my home, about an 11ms ping RTT, remote X11 is so slow as to be
unusable.

VNC is much, much better; it was designed in part to fix these
limitations.  It makes remote application display usable.

I have not tried NX (the thing Kristoffer points out) but based on
the description he gives and what i found online, it sounds better
yet.

The real king in this space is Citrix's ICA protocol.  Unfortunately
it's proprietary & tightly tied to Windows.

Of course, the real way to "remotely use linux" is via the command
line  :)



On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 11:47:40PM -0500, Robert Meier wrote:
> Kristoffer, Ray,
> 
> > > It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> > > compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation ...
> > There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
> > and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
> > they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.
> 
> ssh -X also sets up a new X-server (default :10.0).
> 
> > > I just wish that it wouldn't create a new X server session.
> > > I'd like to use the current running session,
> > > but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.
> 
> The ability for remote (including VNC) executables to access an X
> server has been part of X since its inception in the 1980s.
> 
> <HINT>
> If you wish to use the same X-server,
> you simply need to inform the executables to address the same X-server.
> This is usually done with the --display option or environment variable
> DISPLAY.
> The address is "<host-or-ip>:<server-no>.<screen-no>" .
> Note that you will have to open up the appropriate firewall channels
> on BOTH hosts.  Typically this is ports 6000-6030(?).
> Use "bash> xhost +<host-as-reported-to-X-server>" to authorize access
> to the server.
> You may need to copy appropriate ~/.Xauthority cookie to the remote host.
> </HINT>
> 
> See X(7) for further details.
> 
> Hopefully helpful,
> -- 
> Robert Meier
> 
>   "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
>    oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
>    will reach to himself."
> 	--Thomas Paine
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 11:14:35 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:14:35 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590711270814l737703eaqaa53a40b44778d31@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 26, 2007 8:34 AM, Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I'm in my programming class now, and it's back to acting like I'm
> paying attention like I haven't taken the class twice before.

If you've taken the class twice before... well, just a thought but
maybe you *should* be paying attention?

(Don't worry - I was guilty of ignoring the profs in college too - but
I never took a class three times!)

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 15:44:20 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:44:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>

     Using OO Calc on another project, I ended up getting a zero 
result rather abruptly
when scaling down a Slip value. Increasing the precision of this 
parameter, so that the
display read .001 instead of 0, changed the results. So I did a 
little test in a fresh
spreadsheet:

Start at any cell. Enter a column of numbers as follows:

0.001
0.002
0.003
0.004

Do not change the precision of the display. The numbers just entered 
read all zeros, as the default is
two decimal places. (not significant figures!)

Now in another cell, add up all the numbers (=SUM(A1:A4)). They 
should add up to 0.01, which is within
the (default) precision of the cell format. However, the result displayed is 0.

Now change the precision of the cells with the list of numbers to at 
least three decimal places. The cell
with the addition formula then shows the correct value of 0.01.

Evidently, Calc is referring to cells to be used in formulas, not by 
any actual number stored separately,
as is expected from calculators, but rather by *whatever is 
displayed* by virtue of the Font format
setting. At least now I have a better handle on how to write the bug 
report. However, I'm not sure that this
isn't supposed to be a "feature"; and even so, fixing it is likely 
going to require completely rewriting
large sections of code, if the developers did what I think they did. 
Still, it's almost certainly responsible
for the off-the-wall results that I've been getting with the least 
square analysis.

BTW: I also tried this in Microsoft Excel. Excel gave the correct 
answer to within the precision setting
*of the formula cell* regardless of the precision settings of the 
cells being added. So Excel apparently
is at least getting this right.

----

- Drew.



From siersmak at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 14:09:30 2007
From: siersmak at gmail.com (Ken Siersma)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 14:09:30 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48fee1380711271109t4494e081sc64442fa43428846@mail.gmail.com>

Doesn't happen in OpenOffice 2.2.0, Ubuntu 7.04.

On Nov 27, 2007 3:44 PM, Drew <drew4096 at gmail.com> wrote:

>     Using OO Calc on another project, I ended up getting a zero
> result rather abruptly
> when scaling down a Slip value. Increasing the precision of this
> parameter, so that the
> display read .001 instead of 0, changed the results. So I did a
> little test in a fresh
> spreadsheet:
>
> Start at any cell. Enter a column of numbers as follows:
>
> 0.001
> 0.002
> 0.003
> 0.004
>
> Do not change the precision of the display. The numbers just entered
> read all zeros, as the default is
> two decimal places. (not significant figures!)
>
> Now in another cell, add up all the numbers (=SUM(A1:A4)). They
> should add up to 0.01, which is within
> the (default) precision of the cell format. However, the result displayed
> is 0.
>
> Now change the precision of the cells with the list of numbers to at
> least three decimal places. The cell
> with the addition formula then shows the correct value of 0.01.
>
> Evidently, Calc is referring to cells to be used in formulas, not by
> any actual number stored separately,
> as is expected from calculators, but rather by *whatever is
> displayed* by virtue of the Font format
> setting. At least now I have a better handle on how to write the bug
> report. However, I'm not sure that this
> isn't supposed to be a "feature"; and even so, fixing it is likely
> going to require completely rewriting
> large sections of code, if the developers did what I think they did.
> Still, it's almost certainly responsible
> for the off-the-wall results that I've been getting with the least
> square analysis.
>
> BTW: I also tried this in Microsoft Excel. Excel gave the correct
> answer to within the precision setting
> *of the formula cell* regardless of the precision settings of the
> cells being added. So Excel apparently
> is at least getting this right.
>
> ----
>
> - Drew.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From tony at bemushosting.com  Tue Nov 27 18:11:42 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:11:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <20071127151523.GC35525@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<20071126044740.E5699127C58@starfox.local>
	<20071127151523.GC35525@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <1196205102.8812.5.camel@bemus-tony>

I agree with the usability of NX.  I use it daily to remote from work to
home.  It worked for me even when I had 768K Internet connection at
home.  It seems faster then the RDP connection I use to use before I
switched to Ubuntu.  Not quite fast enough to do video but it loads the
pictures really good and you don't need to "refresh the screen"  just to
see what you are doing like you would in VNC.
-  
Tony Bemus



On Tue, 2007-11-27 at 10:15 -0500, Dan Pritts wrote:

> The problem with remotely displaying X applications is that the x11
> protocol is just too chatty to be used over anything but a LAN.
> Performance really sucks even on short WAN hops.  from my office
> to my home, about an 11ms ping RTT, remote X11 is so slow as to be
> unusable.
> 
> VNC is much, much better; it was designed in part to fix these
> limitations.  It makes remote application display usable.
> 
> I have not tried NX (the thing Kristoffer points out) but based on
> the description he gives and what i found online, it sounds better
> yet.
> 
> The real king in this space is Citrix's ICA protocol.  Unfortunately
> it's proprietary & tightly tied to Windows.
> 
> Of course, the real way to "remotely use linux" is via the command
> line  :)
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 25, 2007 at 11:47:40PM -0500, Robert Meier wrote:
> > Kristoffer, Ray,
> > 
> > > > It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> > > > compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation ...
> > > There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
> > > and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
> > > they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.
> > 
> > ssh -X also sets up a new X-server (default :10.0).
> > 
> > > > I just wish that it wouldn't create a new X server session.
> > > > I'd like to use the current running session,
> > > > but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.
> > 
> > The ability for remote (including VNC) executables to access an X
> > server has been part of X since its inception in the 1980s.
> > 
> > <HINT>
> > If you wish to use the same X-server,
> > you simply need to inform the executables to address the same X-server.
> > This is usually done with the --display option or environment variable
> > DISPLAY.
> > The address is "<host-or-ip>:<server-no>.<screen-no>" .
> > Note that you will have to open up the appropriate firewall channels
> > on BOTH hosts.  Typically this is ports 6000-6030(?).
> > Use "bash> xhost +<host-as-reported-to-X-server>" to authorize access
> > to the server.
> > You may need to copy appropriate ~/.Xauthority cookie to the remote host.
> > </HINT>
> > 
> > See X(7) for further details.
> > 
> > Hopefully helpful,
> > -- 
> > Robert Meier
> > 
> >   "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
> >    oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
> >    will reach to himself."
> > 	--Thomas Paine
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> danno
> --
> dan pritts
> danno at umich.edu
> 734-929-9770
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 02:55:36 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:55:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <474AD0E5.50007@gmail.com>
References: <474AD0E5.50007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BCD78.2030601@hotpop.com>

Kristoffer Marshall wrote:
> Was: "A big opportunity for Linux?"
> 
> I've set up VNC manually before, and I have run a free X client in 
> Windows to spit out stuff from my X server over the network through a 
> SSH session (works very fast, forgot what the software was called). By 
> far the easiest solution I have come across is NoMachine 
> (www.nomachine.com). You set it up on the linux box as the server, throw 
> in an IP address or hostname on your Windows client, and it works. The 
> "NX Free Edition" for linux (from what I remember) is a server and 
> client package, which you will install on your linux box. Then you get 
> the Windows client (also free) to connect to the server. The only 
> problems I've had with it were when I was trying to connect to Oakand 
> University's server with the newest client. When I set it up at home 
> though, using the newest version on both computers worked pretty well. 
> It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
> compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation and everything 
> should be fine. It's pretty darn fast over the Internet. I just wish 
> that it wouldn't create a new X server session. I'd like to use the 
> current running session, but I haven't seen anything like that for linux.
> 
> Now if only there was a LogMeIn server for linux (www.logmein.com). I 
> love that stuff.

Until some #(%*&^#% figures out how to hijack a logmein.com
packet stream, and use it to create even more spam-bot networks.
UGH!




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 05:29:55 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:29:55 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711262258i4c35eb50lc8f2c700e9508f09@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380711262258i4c35eb50lc8f2c700e9508f09@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474BF1A3.4040405@hotpop.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> Drew wrote:
>>     I am considering bringing the main brain up to or over a Gig of
>> memory. There are two slots, each currently containing a 256M module.
>> DRAM Access Time: 2.5V Unbuffered DDR200/266 MHz Type required.
>> DRAM Type: 64MB/128MB/256MB/512MB/1GB DIMM Module (184 pin)
> 
> The referenced RAM is standard DDR memory.  Though the current
> standard is DDR2 (with DDR3 just becoming available), first-generation
> DDR is still being manufactured and is widely available.  Of course,
> faster is better -- but most DDR available currently is 266 or higher.
> 
> Now is a REALLY good time to buy RAM, as most manufacturers are about
> to cut back their production -- the failure of WinVista in the
> marketplace has lead to a glut of RAM module availability, and NOBODY
> is making any money on memory -- even Samsung, with their massive
> economies of scale, is taking a beating.
> 
> Depending somewhat upon the processor and chipset, it's usually a good
> idea to fill both slots with RAM that has the same capacity and speed
> specifications.

In fact, when building a new computer, I put MY money
into memory (as much as I can get) before a faster
CPU (a system with a moderate-speed CPU with a lot
of memory will out-perform a one with a high-speed
CPU which is constantly swapping memory between
RAM and swap space (i.e. "thrashing")).




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 03:30:22 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:30:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Want to swap AGP Geforce2 MX 200 for PCI video card
 w/Hardware T&L
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711270029210.5305@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711261940400.2123@banana.sluggo.net>	<6.2.3.4.0.20071127015550.029811f0@pop.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.99999.0711270029210.5305@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <474BD59E.3080209@hotpop.com>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2007-11-27, Monsieur Drew a ecrit:
>> At 07:56 PM 11/26/07, Michael Corral wrote:
>>> BTW, if anyone needs any ISA video cards, let me know. I need to get
>>> rid of this (and a whole bunch of other) stuff.
>>     No need for a video card here; but do you by chance have a PCI serial
>> card?
> 
> No. I've never even seen such a thing.

sounds like something you would plug into a PCI
slot, and then get dozens (or 16's) of serial ports,
for, say, hooking up a bunch of ASCII terminals.

Digiboard (www.digi.com) made them in the 90's.

<http://www.google.com/search?q=pci+port-concentrator+serial&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=mozilla&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial>




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 17:31:31 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:31:31 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127151617.02978a10@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <474C9AC3.7080805@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
>      Using OO Calc on another project, I ended up getting a zero 
> result rather abruptly
> when scaling down a Slip value. Increasing the precision of this 
> parameter, so that the
> display read .001 instead of 0, changed the results. So I did a 
> little test in a fresh
> spreadsheet:
> 
> Start at any cell. Enter a column of numbers as follows:
> 
> 0.001
> 0.002
> 0.003
> 0.004
> 
> Do not change the precision of the display. The numbers just entered 
> read all zeros, as the default is
> two decimal places. (not significant figures!)
> 
> Now in another cell, add up all the numbers (=SUM(A1:A4)). They 
> should add up to 0.01, which is within
> the (default) precision of the cell format. However, the result displayed is 0.
> 
> Now change the precision of the cells with the list of numbers to at 
> least three decimal places. The cell
> with the addition formula then shows the correct value of 0.01.
> 
> Evidently, Calc is referring to cells to be used in formulas, not by 
> any actual number stored separately,
> as is expected from calculators, but rather by *whatever is 
> displayed* by virtue of the Font format
> setting. At least now I have a better handle on how to write the bug 
> report. However, I'm not sure that this
> isn't supposed to be a "feature"; and even so, fixing it is likely 
> going to require completely rewriting
> large sections of code, if the developers did what I think they did. 
> Still, it's almost certainly responsible
> for the off-the-wall results that I've been getting with the least 
> square analysis.
> 
> BTW: I also tried this in Microsoft Excel. Excel gave the correct 
> answer to within the precision setting
> *of the formula cell* regardless of the precision settings of the 
> cells being added. So Excel apparently
> is at least getting this right.

Have you sent a bug report to the OpenOffice.org people?




From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Tue Nov 27 20:32:10 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:32:10 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
Message-ID: <2265699.1196213530477.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Does not happen in OpenOffice 2.0.2 (Novell Edition) on SuSE10.0

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Siersma <siersmak at gmail.com>
>Sent: Nov 27, 2007 2:09 PM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
>
>Doesn't happen in OpenOffice 2.2.0, Ubuntu 7.04.
>
>On Nov 27, 2007 3:44 PM, Drew <drew4096 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>     Using OO Calc on another project, I ended up getting a zero
>> result rather abruptly
>> when scaling down a Slip value. Increasing the precision of this
>> parameter, so that the
>> display read .001 instead of 0, changed the results. So I did a
>> little test in a fresh
>> spreadsheet:
>>
>> Start at any cell. Enter a column of numbers as follows:
>>
>> 0.001
>> 0.002
>> 0.003
>> 0.004
>>
>> Do not change the precision of the display. The numbers just entered
>> read all zeros, as the default is
>> two decimal places. (not significant figures!)
>>
>> Now in another cell, add up all the numbers (=SUM(A1:A4)). They
>> should add up to 0.01, which is within
>> the (default) precision of the cell format. However, the result displayed
>> is 0.
>>
>> Now change the precision of the cells with the list of numbers to at
>> least three decimal places. The cell
>> with the addition formula then shows the correct value of 0.01.
>>
>> Evidently, Calc is referring to cells to be used in formulas, not by
>> any actual number stored separately,
>> as is expected from calculators, but rather by *whatever is
>> displayed* by virtue of the Font format
>> setting. At least now I have a better handle on how to write the bug
>> report. However, I'm not sure that this
>> isn't supposed to be a "feature"; and even so, fixing it is likely
>> going to require completely rewriting
>> large sections of code, if the developers did what I think they did.
>> Still, it's almost certainly responsible
>> for the off-the-wall results that I've been getting with the least
>> square analysis.
>>
>> BTW: I also tried this in Microsoft Excel. Excel gave the correct
>> answer to within the precision setting
>> *of the formula cell* regardless of the precision settings of the
>> cells being added. So Excel apparently
>> is at least getting this right.
>>
>> ----
>>
>> - Drew.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 21:11:51 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:11:51 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <474C9AC3.7080805@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.474cce67.3eebca02.22cc@zaurus>

* Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote on 
> Have you sent a bug report to the OpenOffice.org people?
>

Not yet, though I have taken out the login ID for the purpose. Someone else on this list reports that it does not happen for OO 2.2.0 on the Ubuntu 7 distro. I
shall have to find out the version of my OO Suite when I get home, to see if it's an earlier version.

----

- Drew.




From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Nov 27 02:58:09 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:58:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Remotely Use Linux
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACC7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <474BCE11.9000705@hotpop.com>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Kristoffer Marshall
> 
>> It's basically an easy to set up VNC, with a lot of options for 
>> compression and whatnot. Just read the documentation and everything 
>> should be fine. It's pretty darn fast over the Internet. I just wish 
>> that it wouldn't create a new X server session. I'd like to use the 
>> current running session, but I haven't seen anything like 
>> that for linux.
> 
>  There's also "ssh -X". When you connect, ssh will set up X forwarding
> and encrypt the traffic. You can fire up commands (e.g. "xterm &") and
> they'll run on the remote machine and show up on the local one.
> 
>  Even works for Windows, given an X server running on Windows, like xming
> or Cygwin's X server.


And HIGHLY recommended for logins going over unsecured
networks, by the way.




From drew4096 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 00:56:10 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:56:10 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20071128005446.029aaac0@pop.gmail.com>

     It turns out I have Open Office 2.0 Beta, which might explain it.
The math works properly in plain Open Office 2.0 on my kanotix image,
and also in Open Office 1.1, surprisingly. The developers must have
decided to try something new, then immediately changed their minds
when they saw the results.

----

- Drew.



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 08:59:19 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:59:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <474C06C2.7030009@wideopenwest.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071127020235.02982840@pop.gmail.com>
	<474C06C2.7030009@wideopenwest.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711280559v6c4df062ua6e5a3923d50bfc7@mail.gmail.com>

Bob Dion wrote:
> Drew wrote:
>   Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard
> > now hopelessly
> > out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)
> >
>
> I have received good prices & service from:
> http://www.oempcworld.com/
>
> They have tools for finding memory for your motherboard plus lots of
> other info.

All this is overthinking the situation -- I've built PCs for over 20
years and I know these things.  TO REPEAT: what Drew need is
straight-line STANDARD PC2100/266 MHz DDR memory.  A good choice is
Micro Center -- they are local and have good prices.

~~ Mikey


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Nov 28 10:14:46 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:14:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380711280559v6c4df062ua6e5a3923d50bfc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Michael Rudas
> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 8:59 AM
> To: starline at wideopenwest.com; MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Memory modules
> 
> Bob Dion wrote:
> > Drew wrote:
> >   Will any modern module work? Or is my motherboard
> > > now hopelessly
> > > out of date? (I got it near the end of '03.)
> > >
> >
> > I have received good prices & service from:
> > http://www.oempcworld.com/
> >
> > They have tools for finding memory for your motherboard 
> plus lots of 
> > other info.
> 
> All this is overthinking the situation -- I've built PCs for 
> over 20 years and I know these things.  TO REPEAT: what Drew 
> need is straight-line STANDARD PC2100/266 MHz DDR memory.  A 
> good choice is Micro Center -- they are local and have good prices.
> 
> ~~ Mikey

	Microcenter is not "local", they just have a local retail center.

	A local place would be EMC Computers on Rochester Road in Troy, just
North of Big Beaver, next door to Talking Book World. It's a "mom&pop" shop
that is vey local.

	-Rob



From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 28 13:27:50 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:27:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <474DB326.4020602@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> 	Microcenter is not "local", they just have a local retail center.
>
> 	A local place would be EMC Computers on Rochester Road in Troy, just
> North of Big Beaver, next door to Talking Book World. It's a "mom&pop" shop
> that is vey local.
>   

Not "local" to me.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tony at bemushosting.com  Wed Nov 28 13:52:25 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:52:25 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <474DB326.4020602@comcast.net>
References: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>
	<474DB326.4020602@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1196275945.15252.2.camel@bemus-tony>

Discount Computers in Redford on Telegraph road is a good "Local" store
that is not far from where Drew lives.  Just straight up Telegraph road
(North from Dearborn/Taylor) on the West side before you get to I-69.

-  
Tony Bemus



On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 13:27 -0500, Garry Stahl wrote:

> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > 	Microcenter is not "local", they just have a local retail center.
> >
> > 	A local place would be EMC Computers on Rochester Road in Troy, just
> > North of Big Beaver, next door to Talking Book World. It's a "mom&pop" shop
> > that is vey local.
> >   
> 
> Not "local" to me.
> 


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Nov 28 14:59:29 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:59:29 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Memory modules
In-Reply-To: <1196275945.15252.2.camel@bemus-tony>
References: <20071128152138.F12FC1412E@impelind.com>	<474DB326.4020602@comcast.net>
	<1196275945.15252.2.camel@bemus-tony>
Message-ID: <474DC8A1.8070602@comcast.net>

Tony Bemus wrote:
> Discount Computers in Redford on Telegraph road is a good "Local" store
> that is not far from where Drew lives.  Just straight up Telegraph road
> (North from Dearborn/Taylor) on the West side before you get to I-69.
>
>   

Prices are not shoddy either.  I use DCI frequently for "bits". 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 09:17:26 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:17:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071126144513.674581412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <20071129142421.03DBB1412E@impelind.com>


	Nobody got anything on this?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Robert Adkins
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:38 AM
> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
> Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
> 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically 
> ignoring the WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 
> laptop. It has a "Dell Truemobile 1300"
> wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> 
> 	I went to the NDISwrapper site, read through the wiki a 
> bit and found an excellent listing of what cards/drivers are 
> supposed to work.
> (Which also included links to those drivers.)
> 
> 	The removal of the non-working opensource bcm4xx driver 
> and installation of the ndiswrapper with Windows driver went 
> smoothly. I fired up kwifi and voila! I was able to show a 
> signal, scan and see my WPA configured wifi router and... Nothin..
> 
> 	I entered my passkey as the kwifi did correctly 
> identify the necessary configuration. Unfortunately, that 
> didn't work. The wpa_supplicant fired up, still nothing worked.
> 
> 	As a test, I temporarily set the wifi router into an 
> open, no authentication needed setup and I was able to 
> connect without any problem.
> 
> 	Right now, I am assuming that there is some issue with 
> the Windows driver that isn't allowing the wpa_supplicant to 
> properly do its job. It may also be that the wifi router 
> (Linksys WRT54G) is setup in a way that the driver I am using 
> just can't grok and thus needs to be configured using a 
> different WPA setup.
> 
> 	Anyone in a similar situation and have a few pointers?
> 
> 	Really, I have no problem with plugging the laptop into 
> the wall jacks at home. As it stands, I should be able to 
> connect fine to the free wifi setups at coffee shops and 
> other locations. I would really enjoy being able to use my 
> wifi anywhere in the house.
> 
> 	Thanks for any assistance,	
> 	
> 	Rob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 29 09:43:32 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:43:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
Message-ID: <739466.55901.qm@web37914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a linksys wifi card on my Compaq and it still does not work.

David

----- Original Message ----
From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 9:17:26 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame



    Nobody got anything on this?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Robert Adkins
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 9:38 AM
> To: mdlug at mdlug.org
> Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
>     So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically 
> ignoring the WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 
> laptop. It has a "Dell Truemobile 1300"
> wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> 
>     I went to the NDISwrapper site, read through the wiki a 
> bit and found an excellent listing of what cards/drivers are 
> supposed to work.
> (Which also included links to those drivers.)
> 
>     The removal of the non-working opensource bcm4xx driver 
> and installation of the ndiswrapper with Windows driver went 
> smoothly. I fired up kwifi and voila! I was able to show a 
> signal, scan and see my WPA configured wifi router and... Nothin..
> 
>     I entered my passkey as the kwifi did correctly 
> identify the necessary configuration. Unfortunately, that 
> didn't work. The wpa_supplicant fired up, still nothing worked.
> 
>     As a test, I temporarily set the wifi router into an 
> open, no authentication needed setup and I was able to 
> connect without any problem.
> 
>     Right now, I am assuming that there is some issue with 
> the Windows driver that isn't allowing the wpa_supplicant to 
> properly do its job. It may also be that the wifi router 
> (Linksys WRT54G) is setup in a way that the driver I am using 
> just can't grok and thus needs to be configured using a 
> different WPA setup.
> 
>     Anyone in a similar situation and have a few pointers?
> 
>     Really, I have no problem with plugging the laptop into 
> the wall jacks at home. As it stands, I should be able to 
> connect fine to the free wifi setups at coffee shops and 
> other locations. I would really enjoy being able to use my 
> wifi anywhere in the house.
> 
>     Thanks for any assistance,    
>     
>     Rob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov 29 09:50:46 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:50:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129142421.03DBB1412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> > From: Robert Adkins

> > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically 
> > ignoring the WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 
> > laptop. It has a "Dell Truemobile 1300"
> > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.

> 	Nobody got anything on this?

 Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking hardware that's supported
under Linux. A couple of Atheros-based cards (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol
compact-flash card with a PCMCIA adapter. Haven't messed with Broadcom at all, nor
with WPA (since my Symbol card is 802.11b and can't handle WPA).

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317

 "Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills
 the first woman she meets and then teams up with three
 complete strangers to kill again." - TV listing for the
    Wizard of Oz in the Marin Independent Journal
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 09:54:42 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:54:42 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD4@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071129150137.2D44C1412E@impelind.com>

> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically ignoring the 
> > > WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It has a "Dell 
> > > Truemobile 1300"
> > > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> 
> > 	Nobody got anything on this?
> 
>  Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking 
> hardware that's supported under Linux. A couple of 
> Atheros-based cards (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol 
> compact-flash card with a PCMCIA adapter. Haven't messed with 
> Broadcom at all, nor with WPA (since my Symbol card is 
> 802.11b and can't handle WPA).
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317
> 

	I hear you.

	At the time of buying that laptop, my wife's employer was paying a
decent portion of the tab to order through Dell and they provided a limited
set of options (a Low-end, Midrange and High-End system), with few
customizable elements. I ended up with a really slick (at the time) machine
for far less than it would have cost otherwise. 

	I also wasn't so concerned with the WiFi card under Linux, since so
few places had "Free WiFi" back then and I had no issues with plugging it
into my home network.

	Oh well, maybe I need to pickup a separate WiFi card and go to town
configuring that.

	Thanks,
	Rob



From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Thu Nov 29 14:44:33 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:44:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
Message-ID: <4554836.1196365474275.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Rob,

I have a DELL laptop (D820 circa 2006)with wireless using boroadcom chip and it has been working fine through ndiswrapper but you may have a newer version.

Raj

-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
>Sent: Nov 29, 2007 9:54 AM
>To: 'MDLUG's Main discussion list' <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
>
>> 
>> > From: Robert Adkins
>> 
>> > > From: Robert Adkins
>> 
>> > > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically ignoring the 
>> > > WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It has a "Dell 
>> > > Truemobile 1300"
>> > > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
>> 
>> > 	Nobody got anything on this?
>> 
>>  Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking 
>> hardware that's supported under Linux. A couple of 
>> Atheros-based cards (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol 
>> compact-flash card with a PCMCIA adapter. Haven't messed with 
>> Broadcom at all, nor with WPA (since my Symbol card is 
>> 802.11b and can't handle WPA).
>> 
>>  Sincerely,
>> 
>>  Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317
>> 
>
>	I hear you.
>
>	At the time of buying that laptop, my wife's employer was paying a
>decent portion of the tab to order through Dell and they provided a limited
>set of options (a Low-end, Midrange and High-End system), with few
>customizable elements. I ended up with a really slick (at the time) machine
>for far less than it would have cost otherwise. 
>
>	I also wasn't so concerned with the WiFi card under Linux, since so
>few places had "Free WiFi" back then and I had no issues with plugging it
>into my home network.
>
>	Oh well, maybe I need to pickup a separate WiFi card and go to town
>configuring that.
>
>	Thanks,
>	Rob
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 14:52:24 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:52:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <4554836.1196365474275.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20071129195919.B6B0D140DF@impelind.com>

Mine is a little over 4 years old now.

It's an Inspiron 8500

The WiFi is "working", it just doesn't appear to be properly supporting WPA
authentication.

Router set to WPA-Personal, (Tried both TKIP and AES settings) nothing.

Router set to WPA2-Personal, (Same settings as above) nothing.

Router set Wide Open, no authentication, BAM! Kwifi snatches up an IP
Address and away we go.

I would rather not leave myself wide open.

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of R. Kannan
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 2:45 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
> Rob,
> 
> I have a DELL laptop (D820 circa 2006)with wireless using 
> boroadcom chip and it has been working fine through 
> ndiswrapper but you may have a newer version.
> 
> Raj
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
> >Sent: Nov 29, 2007 9:54 AM
> >To: 'MDLUG's Main discussion list' <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> >
> >> 
> >> > From: Robert Adkins
> >> 
> >> > > From: Robert Adkins
> >> 
> >> > > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of 
> basically ignoring the 
> >> > > WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It 
> has a "Dell 
> >> > > Truemobile 1300"
> >> > > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> >> 
> >> > 	Nobody got anything on this?
> >> 
> >>  Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking hardware 
> >> that's supported under Linux. A couple of Atheros-based cards 
> >> (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol compact-flash card with a PCMCIA 
> >> adapter. Haven't messed with Broadcom at all, nor with WPA 
> (since my 
> >> Symbol card is 802.11b and can't handle WPA).
> >> 
> >>  Sincerely,
> >> 
> >>  Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317
> >> 
> >
> >	I hear you.
> >
> >	At the time of buying that laptop, my wife's employer 
> was paying a 
> >decent portion of the tab to order through Dell and they provided a 
> >limited set of options (a Low-end, Midrange and High-End 
> system), with 
> >few customizable elements. I ended up with a really slick 
> (at the time) 
> >machine for far less than it would have cost otherwise.
> >
> >	I also wasn't so concerned with the WiFi card under 
> Linux, since so 
> >few places had "Free WiFi" back then and I had no issues 
> with plugging 
> >it into my home network.
> >
> >	Oh well, maybe I need to pickup a separate WiFi card 
> and go to town 
> >configuring that.
> >
> >	Thanks,
> >	Rob
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >mdlug mailing list
> >mdlug at mdlug.org
> >http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 



From jmtaylor90 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 15:05:22 2007
From: jmtaylor90 at gmail.com (Jason)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:05:22 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <4554836.1196365474275.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <4554836.1196365474275.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1196366722.3321.9.camel@bruiser.localdomain>

Broadcom won't open their drivers up so we are left to the sometimes
funkiness of ndiswrapper, which I never got to work with my Broadcom
1300 on a Inspiron 1000. FWIW anyone looking at the M1700 (XPS) series
of Dell's the Intel3945 works quite well.

-Jason

On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 14:44 -0500, R. Kannan wrote:
> Rob,
> 
> I have a DELL laptop (D820 circa 2006)with wireless using boroadcom chip and it has been working fine through ndiswrapper but you may have a newer version.
> 
> Raj
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
> >Sent: Nov 29, 2007 9:54 AM
> >To: 'MDLUG's Main discussion list' <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> >
> >> 
> >> > From: Robert Adkins
> >> 
> >> > > From: Robert Adkins
> >> 
> >> > > 	So, I finally decided to fix my issue of basically ignoring the 
> >> > > WiFi adapter in my old Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop. It has a "Dell 
> >> > > Truemobile 1300"
> >> > > wifi adapter which is using a Broadcom chipset.
> >> 
> >> > 	Nobody got anything on this?
> >> 
> >>  Nope, sorry. I've been lucky and/or careful in picking 
> >> hardware that's supported under Linux. A couple of 
> >> Atheros-based cards (cardbus & desktop) and a Symbol 
> >> compact-flash card with a PCMCIA adapter. Haven't messed with 
> >> Broadcom at all, nor with WPA (since my Symbol card is 
> >> 802.11b and can't handle WPA).
> >> 
> >>  Sincerely,
> >> 
> >>  Ray Ingles                               (313) 227-2317
> >> 
> >
> >	I hear you.
> >
> >	At the time of buying that laptop, my wife's employer was paying a
> >decent portion of the tab to order through Dell and they provided a limited
> >set of options (a Low-end, Midrange and High-End system), with few
> >customizable elements. I ended up with a really slick (at the time) machine
> >for far less than it would have cost otherwise. 
> >
> >	I also wasn't so concerned with the WiFi card under Linux, since so
> >few places had "Free WiFi" back then and I had no issues with plugging it
> >into my home network.
> >
> >	Oh well, maybe I need to pickup a separate WiFi card and go to town
> >configuring that.
> >
> >	Thanks,
> >	Rob
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >mdlug mailing list
> >mdlug at mdlug.org
> >http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
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From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov 29 15:56:33 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:56:33 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129195919.B6B0D140DF@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> The WiFi is "working", it just doesn't appear to be properly 
> supporting WPA authentication... I would rather not leave myself wide open.

 Well, there's WEP, which isn't secure but does serve to discourage casual
leechers. It won't stop (or even seriously slow down) a specific attack (it's
been called "'as useful as a chocolate teapot' in sensitive environments")
but for example, I can see three other unsecured WAPs from my bedroom. Unless
someone was specifically after me, they'd just go after the other low-hanging
fruit. It's not "wide open"; more like "the door's closed but not locked".

 However, I've also placed my WAP low in my basement. The signal isn't detectable
(at least, with the hardware I have) from the street, but I have no trouble
hooking up anywhere in my house with reasonable speed.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                               (313) 227-2317

    How to fix your Windows Application when it doesn't work:
     (1) Stop and start the program
      (2) Log in and log out again
       (3) Reboot the machine
        (4) Reinstall the application again
         (5) Reinstall the operating system
          (6) Dance naked around the machine, waving a rubber chicken
           (7) "Take your machine back for servicing"
                           - Chris Wedgwood
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 16:04:11 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:04:11 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD8@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20071129211106.4A2D414140@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Ingles, Raymond
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:57 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
> > From: Robert Adkins
> 
> > The WiFi is "working", it just doesn't appear to be properly 
> > supporting WPA authentication... I would rather not leave 
> myself wide open.
> 
>  Well, there's WEP, which isn't secure but does serve to 
> discourage casual leechers. It won't stop (or even seriously 
> slow down) a specific attack (it's been called "'as useful as 
> a chocolate teapot' in sensitive environments") but for 
> example, I can see three other unsecured WAPs from my 
> bedroom. Unless someone was specifically after me, they'd 
> just go after the other low-hanging fruit. It's not "wide 
> open"; more like "the door's closed but not locked".
> 

	Yeah, I know about WEP. I don't want to use that, as it certainly is
as you say it is.

>  However, I've also placed my WAP low in my basement. The 
> signal isn't detectable (at least, with the hardware I have) 
> from the street, but I have no trouble hooking up anywhere in 
> my house with reasonable speed.
> 

	My house bizarely acts similar to a Faraday cage. I am unable to
receive a signal for the Oakland County Wireless, that's freely available in
my neighborhood, from outside and I have been unable to get a signal from my
WAP while outside of my house.

	This was tested with my cell phone, which has WiFi capability and
not a very good antenae at that. I did, once, see the Oakland County WiFi
popup while I was in the basement on the laptop, the signal was weak and
didn't last for long.

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Nov 29 16:09:27 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:09:27 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129211106.4A2D414140@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACD9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> 	Yeah, I know about WEP. I don't want to use that, as it 
> certainly is as you say it is.

 One mitigating factor is that, very shortly, my new firewall will be up,
running IPCop. That allows you to specify a special, segregated wireless
branch of the network that isn't allowed to get to the wired portion.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                (313) 227-2317

  "...it is largely unnecessary to trade civil liberties for security...
   the best security measures -- reinforcing the airplane cockpit door,
   putting barricades and guards around important buildings, improving
  authentication for telephone and Internet banking -- have no effect on
     civil liberties. Broad surveillance is a mark of bad security."
                           - Bruce Schneier
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 17:25:54 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:25:54 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129142421.03DBB1412E@impelind.com>
References: <20071126144513.674581412E@impelind.com>
	<20071129142421.03DBB1412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711291425v3edc495fhb31c81d364872a61@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 29, 2007 9:17 AM, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>
>         Nobody got anything on this?

New 1.50 version of NDISwrapper:
http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/joomla/

What distro?  Ubuntu Gutsy bug:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/124159

Ubuntu HOWTO:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=405990


From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Nov 29 17:35:39 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:35:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129211106.4A2D414140@impelind.com>
References: <20071129211106.4A2D414140@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <474F3EBB.3080303@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> My house bizarely acts similar to a Faraday cage.
>   

How old is your house?  Houses built in the 50s and 60s used something
called "diamond lath" to hold the plaster, in which case your house DOES
have a Faraday cage of steel mesh in the walls.  It would be interrupted
by windows or doors, but even the interior walls will have it. but the
basement will not.

If you really want that signal you will need an antenna on the house and
a repeater inside.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 17:33:57 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:33:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <474F3EBB.3080303@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20071129224052.8B359140DF@impelind.com>



> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> > My house bizarely acts similar to a Faraday cage.
> >   
> 
> How old is your house?  Houses built in the 50s and 60s used 
> something called "diamond lath" to hold the plaster, in which 
> case your house DOES have a Faraday cage of steel mesh in the 
> walls.  It would be interrupted by windows or doors, but even 
> the interior walls will have it. but the basement will not.
> 

	That explains it. The house was built in 1951.


> If you really want that signal you will need an antenna on 
> the house and a repeater inside.
> 

	I'll have to look into that, if I need outside access to my network.

	Thanks for that info Gary.


	-Rob



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Nov 29 17:40:21 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:40:21 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90711291425v3edc495fhb31c81d364872a61@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>

> >
> >         Nobody got anything on this?
> 
> New 1.50 version of NDISwrapper:
> http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/joomla/
> 
> What distro?  Ubuntu Gutsy bug:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/
> +bug/124159
> 

	I use OpenSuSe 10.3. 

	Ubuntu is just the latest Linux community darling. Since I started
using SuSe, I've always found it to be much more complete, especially in
regards to laptop support.

	I also enjoy the fact that when you update the kernel, the OpenSuSe
Yast2 system is smart enough to update all other software that it installed
which has to have kernel specific modules for it. For example, the Nvidia
drivers, when you update the Kernel, it actually rebuilds the Nvidia Kernel
interface at the same time so when you reboot, you are presented with a GUI
again. 

	I've heard that Ubuntu lacks that. A guy in a class I am taking
asked me why his X Windows was flashing at him and continually crashing. I
remembered, from seeing that often enough, that he must have been using the
Nvidia driver and recently updated his Kernel. He said yes on both counts.
So, I explained to him how to manually fix it.

	Might already be using the latest NDIS, although I am beginning to
suspect that the version of the wireless drivers I am using could be out of
date and thus not capable of handling the WPA calls that the wpa_supplicant
is asking it to handle.

	-Rob



From newmaniese at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 08:20:50 2007
From: newmaniese at gmail.com (Michael Newman)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:20:50 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>
References: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <DB50A7F3-51ED-4CB6-8EC5-4E92170562C3@gmail.com>

Why not leave the network open and filter MAC addresses. That would be  
more secure than wpa2 and should allow you to connect freely since the  
protection is all in the router. With the linksys router it is pretty  
basic to set up. Also if you leave things open make sure you change  
the ipaddress and password on the local router. In college people  
would change ssids and passwords just for fun on whatever routers were  
found open.

On Nov 29, 2007, at 5:40 PM, "Robert Adkins" <radkins at impelind.com>  
wrote:

>>>
>>>        Nobody got anything on this?
>>
>> New 1.50 version of NDISwrapper:
>> http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/joomla/
>>
>> What distro?  Ubuntu Gutsy bug:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/
>> +bug/124159
>>
>
>    I use OpenSuSe 10.3.
>
>    Ubuntu is just the latest Linux community darling. Since I started
> using SuSe, I've always found it to be much more complete,  
> especially in
> regards to laptop support.
>
>    I also enjoy the fact that when you update the kernel, the OpenSuSe
> Yast2 system is smart enough to update all other software that it  
> installed
> which has to have kernel specific modules for it. For example, the  
> Nvidia
> drivers, when you update the Kernel, it actually rebuilds the Nvidia  
> Kernel
> interface at the same time so when you reboot, you are presented  
> with a GUI
> again.
>
>    I've heard that Ubuntu lacks that. A guy in a class I am taking
> asked me why his X Windows was flashing at him and continually  
> crashing. I
> remembered, from seeing that often enough, that he must have been  
> using the
> Nvidia driver and recently updated his Kernel. He said yes on both  
> counts.
> So, I explained to him how to manually fix it.
>
>    Might already be using the latest NDIS, although I am beginning to
> suspect that the version of the wireless drivers I am using could be  
> out of
> date and thus not capable of handling the WPA calls that the  
> wpa_supplicant
> is asking it to handle.
>
>    -Rob
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Nov 30 08:21:20 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:21:20 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <DB50A7F3-51ED-4CB6-8EC5-4E92170562C3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20071130132816.2E3861412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Michael Newman
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 8:21 AM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
> 
> Why not leave the network open and filter MAC addresses. That 
> would be more secure than wpa2 and should allow you to 
> connect freely since the protection is all in the router. 
> With the linksys router it is pretty basic to set up. Also if 
> you leave things open make sure you change the ipaddress and 
> password on the local router. In college people would change 
> ssids and passwords just for fun on whatever routers were found open.
> 

	I definitely changed the router password and original IP Address it
used.

	I'll look into MAC Address filtering. It would be nice to have it
cleanly setup with support for WPA or WPA2 as well though.

	I downloaded what might be a newer Windows driver yesterday evening
and hope to have some time to fiddle with it tonight. It's possible that
this could fix the problem.

	-Rob



From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 08:30:05 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:30:05 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590711270814l737703eaqaa53a40b44778d31@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590711270814l737703eaqaa53a40b44778d31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4750105D.1040002@gmail.com>

Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> On Nov 26, 2007 8:34 AM, Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Well, I'm in my programming class now, and it's back to acting like I'm
>> paying attention like I haven't taken the class twice before.
>>     
>
> If you've taken the class twice before... well, just a thought but
> maybe you *should* be paying attention?
>
> (Don't worry - I was guilty of ignoring the profs in college too - but
> I never took a class three times!)
>   
No, I got A's in the last two classes. The only problem is that one was 
in highschool and the other just didn't transfer. I find this a shame 
since my class in highschool was a lot more advanced. The semester is 
almost over and we were just introduced to arrays and creating your own 
classes. My teacher is afraid of using a 0 element. She adds 1 to all of 
her code to start everything at 1.

Teacher: "Will this code run correctly?"
Me: "No."
Teacher: "Why not?"
Me: "Because there's a green squiggly underlining that variable 
declaration."
Teacher: "Oh, I was hoping no one would see that."

I can't complain much about this class though. It keeps my GPA up and 
it's one of the few computer classes I'm actually allowed to take even 
though I'm going for my IT degree. I don't know why, but I have a 
feeling that my art history class is going to help me much unless I'm 
going to work in an art museum as a tour guide.


From marshall.kris at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 08:34:49 2007
From: marshall.kris at gmail.com (Kristoffer Marshall)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:34:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20071128005446.029aaac0@pop.gmail.com>
References: <6.2.3.4.0.20071128005446.029aaac0@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47501179.7050308@gmail.com>

That's good. I was going to add that it doesn't happen on my Apple IIe 
either, although the colors seem to be a bit skewed.

Drew wrote:
>      It turns out I have Open Office 2.0 Beta, which might explain it.
> The math works properly in plain Open Office 2.0 on my kanotix image,
> and also in Open Office 1.1, surprisingly. The developers must have
> decided to try something new, then immediately changed their minds
> when they saw the results.
>
> ----
>
> - Drew.
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>   



From painbank at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 09:55:38 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:55:38 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <4750105D.1040002@gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACA2@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<474ACB64.3020105@gmail.com>
	<f0e9fe590711270814l737703eaqaa53a40b44778d31@mail.gmail.com>
	<4750105D.1040002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cafacd830711300655y443b390dme2e695cc60bf6c26@mail.gmail.com>

well, since this discussion is titled about Darwining, and your talking
about how useless an Art History class might be in the future, you really
should consider that *if* you ever got into a job using your IT programming
skills that worked with a software package, oh that say made a game... then
perhaps that art history class might come in more use than you think...

just a thought.  Do not discount general eduction, because let us face the
facts shall we, any monkey can code (for the most part), but not every
monkey can paint a picaso with his code.

Rich Elswick

On Nov 30, 2007 8:30 AM, Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Clinton V. Weiss wrote:
> > On Nov 26, 2007 8:34 AM, Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Well, I'm in my programming class now, and it's back to acting like I'm
> >> paying attention like I haven't taken the class twice before.
> >>
> >
> > If you've taken the class twice before... well, just a thought but
> > maybe you *should* be paying attention?
> >
> > (Don't worry - I was guilty of ignoring the profs in college too - but
> > I never took a class three times!)
> >
> No, I got A's in the last two classes. The only problem is that one was
> in highschool and the other just didn't transfer. I find this a shame
> since my class in highschool was a lot more advanced. The semester is
> almost over and we were just introduced to arrays and creating your own
> classes. My teacher is afraid of using a 0 element. She adds 1 to all of
> her code to start everything at 1.
>
> Teacher: "Will this code run correctly?"
> Me: "No."
> Teacher: "Why not?"
> Me: "Because there's a green squiggly underlining that variable
> declaration."
> Teacher: "Oh, I was hoping no one would see that."
>
> I can't complain much about this class though. It keeps my GPA up and
> it's one of the few computer classes I'm actually allowed to take even
> though I'm going for my IT degree. I don't know why, but I have a
> feeling that my art history class is going to help me much unless I'm
> going to work in an art museum as a tour guide.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img src="
http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0" alt="The Pain Bank
- SCA and WMA"/></a>


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov 30 10:20:26 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:20:26 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <cafacd830711300655y443b390dme2e695cc60bf6c26@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACDA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Rich Elswick

> Do not discount general eduction

 When I got my undergraduate degree, my graduation present was the *best ever*. My
parents sprung for a whole extra term where I could take whatever class I wanted.

 I had a great time. I took an anthropology course, a class on making holograms,
a course on literary fantasy (my one regret was that the science-fiction version
wasn't available that semester), the 'intro to women's studies' class (as a white
male middle-class heterosexual engineer, in the early 1990's... though for the
most part I was treated as a human being), and an 'intro to modern dance' class,
just because it was something I would ordinarily never, ever do.

 One of my favorite things to do when I was in college was, of an afternoon where
I had a long break between classes, go pick a random class and sit in. (I'd choose
a large auditorium so as not to disrupt things.) It was almost never boring, and
even in the boring ones I'd learn *something* I hadn't known I didn't know.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                               (313) 227-2317

 "I remember saying [...] that people would spend more money on software
 than on hardware. We certainly haven't passed that milestone by quite a
   margin. But particularly as software as a service becomes a reality
    [that might change]." -- Bill Gates, Newsweek, September 18th 2000
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Nov 30 10:45:28 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:45:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACDB@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins

> when you update the Kernel, it actually rebuilds the Nvidia Kernel
> interface at the same time so when you reboot, you are 
> presented with a GUI again. 
> 
> 	I've heard that Ubuntu lacks that.

 I dunno what version of Ubuntu he's running, but aside from one incident about
a year and a half back - an acknowledged bug that hasn't been repeated - I've
never run into that, and I've administered Ubuntu machines with three different
Nvidia chipsets.

 Ubuntu is not perfect - nothing is - but its acclaim is well-deserved for the
purposes (general desktop use) it's intended for.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

 "Demand at least as much veracity from your president as you
               would a filmmaker." - pohl
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Thu Nov 29 08:06:59 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:06:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [mdlug] It's about time
Message-ID: <7890.216.144.215.245.1196341619.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

I remember a year ago wondering why someone doesn't do something
about the bot nets.  It's about time.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3927818

c




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 12:38:59 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:38:59 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Darwinia game at Big Lots for $4
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACDA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <cafacd830711300655y443b390dme2e695cc60bf6c26@mail.gmail.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF0ABBACDA@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90711300938l4a6c1b1dl102d3fec52fd4c20@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 30, 2007 10:20 AM, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  When I got my undergraduate degree, my graduation present was the *best ever*. My
> parents sprung for a whole extra term where I could take whatever class I wanted.

Because I was too late in registering to apply for a grant I had, I
ended up taking another year of school to make use of it.  I was
mostly working on an electronics degree but the third year I took
astronomy (which covered a lot about the electromagnetic spectrum),
residential electrical wiring, industrial motor control, and
programmable controllers.  The latter was fun to use with holiday
lights for light shows at the college dances.  I also worked part-time
in the data processing department setting up PCs and terminals.


From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 30 15:25:40 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:25:40 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] It's about time
References: <7890.216.144.215.245.1196341619.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <006d01c8338f$2d263e00$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

However, I suspect that for every person prosecuted, there are 10 new ones 
just waiting to take their place.  :-(

-Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl T. Miller" <millerc at cantonpl.org>
To: <millerc at cantonpl.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:06 AM
Subject: [mdlug] It's about time


>I remember a year ago wondering why someone doesn't do something
> about the bot nets.  It's about time.
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3927818
>
> c
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.11/1161 - Release Date: 
> 11/30/2007 12:12 PM
>
> 



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 30 17:42:53 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:42:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug] OT: nis/make broken (Solaris)
Message-ID: <867705.88538.qm@web81809.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello, I am trying to add a user 'foo' to a group in the file /etc/nis/group.   I can add her, and the /var/yp/make seems to work (not sure though), but when I do an id -a on foo, it doesn't show that they were added to the group.    ypcat group shows that the group has been added correctly to the group file.   "groups foo" *does* show the user belongs to the group that I want her in.  The user reports that she can't access the folders she was trying to get to.   I tested it on my own ID and I thought it was working, but I didn't get a chance to check on the user.  But the Makefile for nis has been acting strange for a while.   Is it possible to delete the results of make and re-make the files?    If so, how do I do that?    make says things are up-to-date.     Should I back up the original files first?    This is Solaris 8.    

Is there a difference between where 'id' and 'groups' look to see what groups someone is in?     Thanks, Dean


From brian at dangerbacon.com  Fri Nov 30 19:14:03 2007
From: brian at dangerbacon.com (Brian)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:14:03 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] WiFi -Woes(?) or Broadcom is 'the' lame
In-Reply-To: <DB50A7F3-51ED-4CB6-8EC5-4E92170562C3@gmail.com>
References: <20071129224716.05F5F140DF@impelind.com>
	<DB50A7F3-51ED-4CB6-8EC5-4E92170562C3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200711301914.33241.brian@dangerbacon.com>

On Friday 30 November 2007 08:20:50 am Michael Newman wrote:
> Why not leave the network open and filter MAC addresses. That would be
> more secure than wpa2 and should allow you to connect freely since the
> protection is all in the router. With the linksys router it is pretty
> basic to set up. Also if you leave things open make sure you change
> the ipaddress and password on the local router. In college people
> would change ssids and passwords just for fun on whatever routers were
> found open.
>

Without WPA or some form of encryption this method doesn't really buy you 
much.  You're still vulnerable to sniffing based attacks.  This means that 
people could grab your mac address for spoofing with ifconfig as well as your 
routers administrative password ;)

-- 
Brian
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From drew4096 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 21:00:01 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:00:01 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <47501179.7050308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.4750c021.328a2b63.2aa0@zaurus>

* Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com> wrote on 14:34:49:
> That's good. I was going to add that it doesn't happen on my Apple IIe 
> either, although the colors seem to be a bit skewed.
> 

    Update: If I start up OO 2.0.0 Calc and load a spreadsheet created with the Beta version, the math error still occurs. Only in a fresh spreadsheet or one prevoiusly created with the NON-Beta version does the problem go away.

----

- Drew.



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 22:02:24 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:02:24 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Fwd: AACS Meeting Notice - December 5,
	2007 - Ubuntu's new Ape: the "Gutsy Gibbon"
Message-ID: <b67fb0380711301902p3a8b653v634d566cbde4e843@mail.gmail.com>

I thought that this might be of interest to some...  I might try to
make it, myself -- if I can afford the gas. :-()

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ravindranath Desai <rdesai at chartermi.net>
Date: Nov 30, 2007 6:16 PM
Subject: AACS Meeting Notice - December 5, 2007 - Ubuntu's new Ape:
the "Gutsy Gibbon"

      AACS meetings are free and open to the public.
      Supporting membership is $20 per year.

      Wednesday, Dec 5, 2007
       AACS Meeting Time: 6:00 PM to (generally) 8:00 PM
       Location: SRT Solutions (above the Linux box)
	206 S. Fifth Avenue, Suite 200, Ann Arbor, MI
~~~

Abstract:

Linux is making great strides onto the desktop operating system market
with advancements that make it easier than ever to switch from Windows
or Mac.  In my speech, I'll be illustrating some of the new features
Ubuntu Linux has incorporated in its latest release, 7.10 "Gutsy
Gibbon".  Some of these features include a revamped graphical
installer and LiveCD, the first GUI configuration tools for some parts
of the system, as well as a basic 3d accelerated desktop environment.
Furthermore, I will demonstrate Compiz Fusion, an open-source, 3D
window manager that provides eye candy for the Linux user that rivals
what is found on Mac's OS X. I will also briefly demonstrate some open
source alternatives that can be used as replacements for some commonly
used Windows or Mac media utilities and productivity tools. Lastly,
I'll dive a little under the hood of the latest stable Linux kernel,
2.6.23, to talk about some of the improvements and alterations made to
the heart of the linux operating systems, like the new Completely Fair
Process Scheduler that allocates processor time more effectively for
pressing, real-time computations, as well as the burgeoning number of
device drivers that are included in a standard kernel.
~~~

About the speaker:

Kevin DuBois is currently an undergraduate computer engineering
student at the university of michigan. He works part time for a local
Ann Arbor streaming television startup called Zattoo.  Kevin has been
an advocate and user of open source for two or three years now, since
high school.  Kevin is a member of the Michigan Ubuntu Loco team, and
is currently focusing on aiding the developers of a 3D window manager
called Compiz Fusion and the media player VLC.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~ Mikey


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Fri Nov 30 21:13:43 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:13:43 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] More OOCalc math wonkiness
In-Reply-To: <etPan.4750c021.328a2b63.2aa0@zaurus>
References: <etPan.4750c021.328a2b63.2aa0@zaurus>
Message-ID: <4750C357.2080902@hotpop.com>

Drew wrote:
> * Kristoffer Marshall <marshall.kris at gmail.com> wrote on 14:34:49:
>> That's good. I was going to add that it doesn't happen on my Apple IIe 
>> either, although the colors seem to be a bit skewed.
>>
> 
>     Update: If I start up OO 2.0.0 Calc and load a spreadsheet created with the Beta version, the math error still occurs. Only in a fresh spreadsheet or one prevoiusly created with the NON-Beta version does the problem go away.
> 

Why are you even using a 2.0.0 BETA version when OO
is already up to 2.2 RELEASE ?

Hmmm...
do you think, maybe, that a beta version just might
have bugs that were fixed in the release version?


I'm just asking.  I mean, are you a masochist, or
just looking for obsolete bugs?




