From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 07:53:07 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 04:53:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Finding CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <4686454D.9090509@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <637156.7055.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I suspect that it is the Mother board.  it is an off brand.  
   
  

Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
  It's an 'nForce650i Ultra' manufactured by EVGA, "designed by NVidia".
I've used EVGA video cards for several years, they make reasonably
priced G-Force, etc cards. This mobo, with the same brand of e-GeForce
7600 GT 256MB PCI-E graphics adapter, plus a 3GHz Pentium-D dual core
processor, 1GB of Kingston DDR2, and a pair of 160GB WD SATA drives
comprise the main componants of a new system I put together for my
sister-in-law. She suffered a bad capacitor blowup, and this was as
cheap as I could bear to go.

By the way, do you need to run SuSE 10.1? I never heard much good about
it. 10.2 is better, at least by reputation. They've done some things
that I don't like (in addition with their flirtation with EVIL), but
over all it works well. I chose it because I understand SuSE in general,
and once delivered I will need to support it at a distance.



David Lane wrote:
> What mother board?
> 
> 
> */Raymond McLaughlin /* wrote:
>
> I don't know about Suse 10.1, but Opensuse 10.2 installs fine from
> a sata DVD drive. It might be the newer kernel, or it might be a
> different motherboard. Getting the newer version couldn't hurt.
>
> I take it you mean that the installer starts up, but the install
> fails because it can't find the packages, etc on the disk?

> 
> David Lane wrote:
> 
> > I'm loading Suse 10.1 on a box that I built. While loading it cant
> find
> > the cd-rom of the dvd.
> >
> > Does any body know what to look for.
> >
> > David C. Lane
> >
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


  
---------------------------------
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
 Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/8432adea/attachment.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 10:17:59 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:17:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <etPan.4686b6b2.66346877.617@zaurus>
Message-ID: <39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Has any body installed Asterisk? 
   
  It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
   
   
   
  David 

       
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/b2042c96/attachment.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 10:21:32 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk (VoIP) and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <682023.80087.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:    Has any body installed Asterisk? 
   
  It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
   
   
   
  David 
    
---------------------------------
  Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games._______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/71169b29/attachment.html>

From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Mon Jul  2 10:22:38 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:22:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C2AE826E.3C65E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Yes we are going to be using it here.


On 7/2/07 10:17 AM, "David Lane" <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Has any body installed Asterisk?
>   
>  
>   
> It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
>   
>  
>   
>  
>   
>  
>   
> David 
>   
> 
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> Play Monopoly Here and Now
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey
> =monopolyherenow>  (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/7cb310b7/attachment.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 10:24:29 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <C2AE826E.3C65E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <759119.27699.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Are you going to installit yourself?
   
  David 
  

"Wojtak, Greg" <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:
  Yes we are going to be using it here.


On 7/2/07 10:17 AM, "David Lane" <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

  Has any body installed Asterisk? 
  
 
  
It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
David 
  
  
---------------------------------
  Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow>  (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
  
---------------------------------
  _______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/07569b33/attachment.html>

From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Mon Jul  2 10:35:04 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:35:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <759119.27699.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C2AE8558.3C676%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

I installed it, another dude is configuring it to work with our Telecom
infrastructure.  So far, it?s pretty cool we?re using the Lumenvox
integration, as well.


On 7/2/07 10:24 AM, "David Lane" <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Are you going to installit yourself?
>   
>  
>   
> David 
>   
> 
> 
> "Wojtak, Greg" <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:
>   
>> Yes we are going to be using it here.
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/2/07 10:17 AM, "David Lane" <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>   
>>> Has any body installed Asterisk?
>>>   
>>>  
>>>   
>>> It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
>>>   
>>>  
>>>   
>>>  
>>>   
>>>  
>>>   
>>> David 
>>>   
>>>   
>>> 
>>>   Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
>>> Play Monopoly Here and Now
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamek
>>> ey=monopolyherenow>  (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
>>>   
>>> 
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>> mdlug mailing list
>>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48225/*http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/featur
> es/mail/index.php> wherever you're surfing.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/9b751b2b/attachment.html>

From millerc at cantonpl.org  Mon Jul  2 10:35:11 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:35:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <etPan.4686b6b2.66346877.617@zaurus>
	<39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <23800.66.51.146.97.1183386911.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

David Lane wrote:
> Has any body installed Asterisk?
>
>   It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.

Yes, and yes.

I just installed trixbox a week ago and am still playing
with it.  Since I want a non-standard configuration, it's
taking me longer to figure it out.  If you're new to
asterisk, I'd suggest trying out trixbox.  Be sure to
watch the videos about setting it up.  Even though they
are from an earlier version, you still need to do the
same things.

c




From siersmak at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 10:42:19 2007
From: siersmak at gmail.com (Ken Siersma)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:42:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <23800.66.51.146.97.1183386911.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <etPan.4686b6b2.66346877.617@zaurus>
	<39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<23800.66.51.146.97.1183386911.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <48fee1380707020742g5118fa21m2713c620e70f0f52@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I installed it and set it up Dec 2005 when setting up our new office,
and we've been using it since then.  No major issues, other than a little
trouble getting the phones to do what I want them to.  There's, of course, a
wide community base for help with troubleshooting though.

On 7/2/07, Carl T. Miller <millerc at cantonpl.org> wrote:
>
> David Lane wrote:
> > Has any body installed Asterisk?
> >
> >   It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
>
> Yes, and yes.
>
> I just installed trixbox a week ago and am still playing
> with it.  Since I want a non-standard configuration, it's
> taking me longer to figure it out.  If you're new to
> asterisk, I'd suggest trying out trixbox.  Be sure to
> watch the videos about setting it up.  Even though they
> are from an earlier version, you still need to do the
> same things.
>
> c
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/4cda8c81/attachment.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Jul  2 13:21:35 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:21:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching YOU)
Message-ID: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>

<http://news.softpedia.com/news/Forget-about-the-WGA-20-Windows-Vista-Features-and-Services-Harvest-User-Data-for-Microsoft-58752.shtml>

If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.

-Rob


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 13:53:42 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:53:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching
	YOU)
In-Reply-To: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <502464.6069.qm@web37914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The Microsoft Pressence is such that they have a lot of leverage.  When this story makes CNN then it might make a difference.
   
  David 
  

Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  

If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.

-Rob
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/f75e8022/attachment.html>

From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Jul  2 14:01:44 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:01:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching
 YOU)
In-Reply-To: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
References: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <46893D88.5050608@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.
>   
I think anyone using a computer needs to look at this and consider it. 
When you look at  the MS record, nothing here is outrageous or beyond
them.  No tin foil hat required.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 13:57:05 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:57:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Augest Topic ?
In-Reply-To: <48fee1380707020742g5118fa21m2713c620e70f0f52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070702175705.31585.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

How about Asterisk for the August topic?
   
  I would like to know more.
   
  David 
   

 
---------------------------------
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/4b5183e7/attachment.html>

From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Mon Jul  2 14:26:23 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:26:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching
 YOU)
In-Reply-To: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
References: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <4689434F.2030804@starline-ent.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> <http://news.softpedia.com/news/Forget-about-the-WGA-20-Windows-Vista-Features-and-Services-Harvest-User-Data-for-Microsoft-58752.shtml>
> 
> If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.
> 

No wonder winvista runs so sloooooow! It spends most of it's time spying 
on the user.

BD



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 14:36:53 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 11:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <4689434F.2030804@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What are the issues with OpenSuSE? 
   
  I was concidering moving to it.
   
  David C. Lane
   
   

       
---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/fb7555e0/attachment.html>

From peter at petertheplumber.net  Mon Jul  2 17:52:20 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 17:52:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1183413140.5330.12.camel@plumber.site>

On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 11:36 -0700, David Lane wrote:
> What are the issues with OpenSuSE? 
>  
> I was concidering moving to it.


David,
	I run opensuse 10.2 on an IBM Thinkpad T30. There is a hack to get
power consumption down to acceptable levels when suspended. The "Zen"
updater simply sucks, as does the new improved main menu. I killed both,
the former in favor of manually updating and the latter in favor of the
"traditional" Gnome menu. Network manager sometimes goes astray, but
it's not just opensuse and the same for evolution. All in all I'd say
I'm very happy with it. It seems rock solid, suspends and resumes w/o
incident. I was up to 45 days uptime before it mistakenly got rebooted.
Battery life isn't the greatest compared to Ubuntu running on an
identical machine, but okay. Old batteries and all. I will be loading
opensuse on this second machine when I get some spare time, Ubuntu just
doesn't dot as many "i's" as opensuse. Please bear in mind I can only
compare to Ubuntu and the Maemo flavor of Debian. For my money, it just
works.

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 23:02:09 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 23:02:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4689434F.2030804@starline-ent.com>
	<988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707022002x321e8c33l790f6ba104a671ef@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/07, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> What are the issues with OpenSuSE?

When I last checked it out I found that it's repos didn't have as many
games and educational packages as compared to Mandriva or
Ubuntu/Debian.  That was important to my user base but maybe not for
you.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 03:46:53 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 03:46:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching
	YOU)
In-Reply-To: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
References: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707030046k31c43528va7a53f2561988a97@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/07, Robert Adkins wrote:

> ["WinVista phones home" link]
> If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.

I can guarantee that it's true.  For those of us that are forced to
run WinXP and higher, though, there IS help.

For the last 4+ years I have installed and used, 100% on EVERY Windows
XP installation I touch, a utility called "XP AntiSpy" which modifies
registry values to turn off nearly all of its "phone home" features.
There will soon be a version for WinVista:
<http://xp-antispy.org/?lang=en&option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1>

-- Mikey


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul  3 08:58:12 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:58:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
Message-ID: <468A47E4.2070202@impelind.com>

    Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds a lengthy 
spiel of information.

    It's places a divider line between each response within the body of 
an email, it places bold, single line headers of the following, with 
standard text versions of the following:

<--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
    *From:* sample at sample.com
    *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
    *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
    *Subject: *Sometime Important.



    The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook and MS 
Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we receive email 
from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of clients. 
He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as save the 
company money.)

    Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to locate a 
configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?

    Thanks,
    Rob


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 10:14:54 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:14:54 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <468A47E4.2070202@impelind.com>
References: <468A47E4.2070202@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707030714l579526c7y5656e597ae8c2877@mail.gmail.com>

Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not saying sit
down and preach to him as a teacher would to the classroom, but leave
printed articles around the break room, water cooler, <insert where he tends
to hang out here> and he will come across them sooner or later.


On 7/3/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>
>     Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds a lengthy
> spiel of information.
>
>     It's places a divider line between each response within the body of
> an email, it places bold, single line headers of the following, with
> standard text versions of the following:
>
> <--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
>     *From:* sample at sample.com
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
>     *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
>     *Subject: *Sometime Important.
>
>
>
>     The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook and MS
> Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we receive email
> from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of clients.
> He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as save the
> company money.)
>
>     Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to locate a
> configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
>
>     Thanks,
>     Rob
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/2762ca83/attachment.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  3 10:37:11 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 07:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590707030714l579526c7y5656e597ae8c2877@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for windows and Linux?
  That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext. 
   
  David 
   
  

"Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
  Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the classroom, but leave printed articles around the break room, water cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he will come across them sooner or later. 


  On 7/3/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:      Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds a lengthy
spiel of information.

    It's places a divider line between each response within the body of
an email, it places bold, single line headers of the following, with 
standard text versions of the following:

<--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
    *From:* sample at sample.com
    *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM 
    *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
    *Subject: *Sometime Important.



    The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook and MS
Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we receive email 
from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of clients.
He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as save the
company money.)

    Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to locate a 
configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?

    Thanks,
    Rob
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug




-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com _______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
Check out fitting  gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/b35d6e3b/attachment.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul  3 11:07:15 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:07:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <468A6623.4020505@impelind.com>

Thunderbird has extensions that will add calendering and it has an 
address book that can access an LDAP system to provide an external 
address list.

If I recall correctly, one could also setup a "MS Exchange" like bit 
using the T-Bird Calender Extension, a simple setup on a webserver with 
MySQL as the back-end.

    Regards,
    Robert Adkins 
    IT Manager/Buyer
    Impel Industries, inc.
    586-254-5800



-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100 
58866448ke Outlook
From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:37:11 AM
> For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for 
> windows and Linux?
> That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext.
>  
> David
>  
>
>
> */"Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not
>     saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the
>     classroom, but leave printed articles around the break room, water
>     cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he will come
>     across them sooner or later.
>
>
>     On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* <radkins at impelind.com
>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>> wrote:
>
>             Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds
>         a lengthy
>         spiel of information.
>
>             It's places a divider line between each response within
>         the body of
>         an email, it places bold, single line headers of the
>         following, with
>         standard text versions of the following:
>
>         <--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
>             *From:* sample at sample.com <mailto:sample at sample.com>
>             *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
>             *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
>         <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>
>             *Subject: *Sometime Important.
>
>
>
>             The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook and MS
>         Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we
>         receive email
>         from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of
>         clients.
>         He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as
>         save the
>         company money.)
>
>             Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to
>         locate a
>         configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
>
>             Thanks,
>             Rob
>         _______________________________________________
>         mdlug mailing list
>         mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Clinton V. Weiss
>     cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz> 
> at Yahoo! Search.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul  3 11:07:50 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:07:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <468A6623.4020505@impelind.com>
References: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<468A6623.4020505@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <468A6646.8020903@impelind.com>

BTW,

    I did discover an extension that creates what is requested.

    -Rob

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100 
47235904ke Outlook
From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:07:15 AM
> Thunderbird has extensions that will add calendering and it has an 
> address book that can access an LDAP system to provide an external 
> address list.
>
> If I recall correctly, one could also setup a "MS Exchange" like bit 
> using the T-Bird Calender Extension, a simple setup on a webserver 
> with MySQL as the back-end.
>
>    Regards,
>    Robert Adkins    IT Manager/Buyer
>    Impel Industries, inc.
>    586-254-5800
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100 
> 58866448ke Outlook
> From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:37:11 AM
>> For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for 
>> windows and Linux?
>> That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext.
>>  
>> David
>>  
>>
>>
>> */"Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>>
>>     Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not
>>     saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the
>>     classroom, but leave printed articles around the break room, water
>>     cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he will come
>>     across them sooner or later.
>>
>>
>>     On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* <radkins at impelind.com
>>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds
>>         a lengthy
>>         spiel of information.
>>
>>             It's places a divider line between each response within
>>         the body of
>>         an email, it places bold, single line headers of the
>>         following, with
>>         standard text versions of the following:
>>
>>         <--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
>>             *From:* sample at sample.com <mailto:sample at sample.com>
>>             *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
>>             *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
>>         <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>
>>             *Subject: *Sometime Important.
>>
>>
>>
>>             The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook 
>> and MS
>>         Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we
>>         receive email
>>         from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of
>>         clients.
>>         He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as
>>         save the
>>         company money.)
>>
>>             Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to
>>         locate a
>>         configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
>>
>>             Thanks,
>>             Rob
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         mdlug mailing list
>>         mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     --     Clinton V. Weiss
>>     cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     mdlug mailing list
>>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
>> Check out fitting gifts for grads 
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz> 
>> at Yahoo! Search.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>



From cvweiss at gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 12:57:42 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:57:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <468A6646.8020903@impelind.com>
References: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<468A6623.4020505@impelind.com> <468A6646.8020903@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707030957i7d91f51u3417098b93a4b2e0@mail.gmail.com>

Which extension?

On 7/3/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>
> BTW,
>
>     I did discover an extension that creates what is requested.
>
>     -Rob
>
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100
> 47235904ke Outlook
> From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:07:15 AM
> > Thunderbird has extensions that will add calendering and it has an
> > address book that can access an LDAP system to provide an external
> > address list.
> >
> > If I recall correctly, one could also setup a "MS Exchange" like bit
> > using the T-Bird Calender Extension, a simple setup on a webserver
> > with MySQL as the back-end.
> >
> >    Regards,
> >    Robert Adkins    IT Manager/Buyer
> >    Impel Industries, inc.
> >    586-254-5800
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message  --------
> > Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100
> > 58866448ke Outlook
> > From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
> > To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:37:11 AM
> >> For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for
> >> windows and Linux?
> >> That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> */"Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>/* wrote:
> >>
> >>     Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not
> >>     saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the
> >>     classroom, but leave printed articles around the break room, water
> >>     cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he will come
> >>     across them sooner or later.
> >>
> >>
> >>     On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* <radkins at impelind.com
> >>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>             Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds
> >>         a lengthy
> >>         spiel of information.
> >>
> >>             It's places a divider line between each response within
> >>         the body of
> >>         an email, it places bold, single line headers of the
> >>         following, with
> >>         standard text versions of the following:
> >>
> >>         <--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
> >>             *From:* sample at sample.com <mailto:sample at sample.com>
> >>             *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
> >>             *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
> >>         <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>
> >>             *Subject: *Sometime Important.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>             The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook
> >> and MS
> >>         Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we
> >>         receive email
> >>         from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of
> >>         clients.
> >>         He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as
> >>         save the
> >>         company money.)
> >>
> >>             Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to
> >>         locate a
> >>         configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
> >>
> >>             Thanks,
> >>             Rob
> >>         _______________________________________________
> >>         mdlug mailing list
> >>         mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     --     Clinton V. Weiss
> >>     cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
> >>     _______________________________________________
> >>     mdlug mailing list
> >>     mdlug at mdlug.org
> >>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> >> Check out fitting gifts for grads
> >> <
> http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
> >
> >> at Yahoo! Search.
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> mdlug mailing list
> >> mdlug at mdlug.org
> >> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/5b29e4db/attachment.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul  3 13:17:24 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:17:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590707030957i7d91f51u3417098b93a4b2e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<468A6623.4020505@impelind.com>
	<468A6646.8020903@impelind.com>
	<f0e9fe590707030957i7d91f51u3417098b93a4b2e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468A84A4.9060709@impelind.com>

"Change Quote and Reply Format"

    

-Rob

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100 
68437120ke Outlook
From: Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 12:57:42 PM
> Which extension?
>
> On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* <radkins at impelind.com 
> <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>> wrote:
>
>     BTW,
>
>         I did discover an extension that creates what is requested.
>
>         -Rob
>
>     -------- Original Message  --------
>     Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100
>     47235904ke Outlook
>     From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com
>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>>
>     To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org
>     <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>>
>     Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:07:15 AM
>     > Thunderbird has extensions that will add calendering and it has an
>     > address book that can access an LDAP system to provide an external
>     > address list.
>     >
>     > If I recall correctly, one could also setup a "MS Exchange" like
>     bit
>     > using the T-Bird Calender Extension, a simple setup on a webserver
>     > with MySQL as the back-end.
>     >
>     >    Regards,
>     >    Robert Adkins    IT Manager/Buyer
>     >    Impel Industries, inc.
>     >    586-254-5800
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > -------- Original Message  --------
>     > Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100
>     > 58866448ke Outlook
>     > From: David Lane < dcl400m at yahoo.com <mailto:dcl400m at yahoo.com>>
>     > To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org
>     <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>>
>     > Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:37:11 AM
>     >> For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for
>     >> windows and Linux?
>     >> That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext.
>     >>
>     >> David
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> */"Clinton V. Weiss" < cvweiss at gmail.com
>     <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>>/* wrote:
>     >>
>     >>     Go a step further in saving money and educate the
>     boss.  I'm not
>     >>     saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the
>     >>     classroom, but leave printed articles around the break
>     room, water
>     >>     cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he
>     will come
>     >>     across them sooner or later.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* < radkins at impelind.com
>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>
>     >>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com
>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >>             Outlook's default method of treating replies to
>     email adds
>     >>         a lengthy
>     >>         spiel of information.
>     >>
>     >>             It's places a divider line between each response within
>     >>         the body of
>     >>         an email, it places bold, single line headers of the
>     >>         following, with
>     >>         standard text versions of the following:
>     >>
>     >>         <--------------Divider Line
>     Here--------------------------->
>     >>             *From:* sample at sample.com
>     <mailto:sample at sample.com> <mailto:sample at sample.com
>     <mailto:sample at sample.com>>
>     >>             *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
>     >>             *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
>     <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>
>     >>         <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com
>     <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>>
>     >>             *Subject: *Sometime Important.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>             The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook
>     >> and MS
>     >>         Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we
>     >>         receive email
>     >>         from a plethora of different email servers, using a
>     variety of
>     >>         clients.
>     >>         He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as
>     well as
>     >>         save the
>     >>         company money.)
>     >>
>     >>             Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into
>     Google to
>     >>         locate a
>     >>         configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
>     >>
>     >>             Thanks,
>     >>             Rob
>     >>         _______________________________________________
>     >>         mdlug mailing list
>     >>         mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>     <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>>
>     >>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     --     Clinton V. Weiss
>     >>     cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
>     <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>>
>     >>     _______________________________________________
>     >>     mdlug mailing list
>     >>     mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>     >>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
>     >> Check out fitting gifts for grads
>     >> <
>     http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>     <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz>>
>     >> at Yahoo! Search.
>     >>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     >>
>     >> _______________________________________________
>     >> mdlug mailing list
>     >> mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>     >> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >
>     >
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Clinton V. Weiss
> cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From gib at juno.com  Tue Jul  3 19:37:26 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:37:26 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] I've got a potential conflict for 7/14 meeting
Message-ID: <20070703.193726.21960.1@webmail32.lax.untd.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/8698ff25/attachment.ksh>

From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  3 22:32:10 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 19:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
Message-ID: <538216.81275.qm@web55507.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

There are a bunch of the caps that are swelled. Looks like its time for a new board. Where is there a good place to get them. I just moved into Fort atkinson.

thanks 
jack

----- Original Message ----
From: jack freeman <freemancomputer at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 9:44:04 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Kernel panic

Seeing how i just moved it from Detroit it wouldn't surprise me. Ill have to reset everything. 

thanks
Jack

----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 2:42:22 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Kernel panic

On 6/29/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> Repeated kernel panics tend to be a sign of hardware issues.

I recently had an unstable system that was caused by the Socket 478
CPU coming out of it's socket.  I think the heavy heat sink was
putting uneven
 pressure on it.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug







      Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/c06ebc4f/attachment.html>

From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 02:01:01 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 02:01:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
In-Reply-To: <538216.81275.qm@web55507.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <538216.81275.qm@web55507.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707032301w762e685ck86a860ea6111bcfd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/3/07, Jack Freeman wrote:

> There are a bunch of the caps that are swelled. Looks like its time for a
> new board. Where is there a good place to get them. I just moved into Fort
> Atkinson.

I don't know that area, so I don't know what stores are around.  I
also don't know what motherboard you are starting with
brand/model-wise (let us know), so I don't know what to suggest.
Here's some general advice.

First you have to decide what your price range is, then what you are
going to buy.  There is something to be said for salvaging your
current processor and RAM if the current system is powerful enough for
your needs-- what DO you have in the bad board?  You can check
http://www.PriceWatch.com for some prices and availability.

If you want someting more powerful-- or just plain newer-- you have a
decision ahead of you.  Due to (admittedly controversial) bug issues
with the Intel "Core" series, I cannot recommend that family of
processors  yet, but since you ARE using it as a server, the anemic
performance of the Intel integrated graphics is not a problem-- and
they are well-supported by Linux-- so a 2.6 GHz or higher Pentium 4
with an integrated-graphics chipset is more than OK.

AMD's chips are also a good choice for these applications, as well.

Remember, too, that newer boards use DDR2 memory, so you likely will
have to replace that as well.  The upside?   With WinVista sales in
the dumper, the bottom has dropped out of the memory market and prices
are near all-time lows.

Typical good board brands for server use include Tyan (sightly more
expensive, but popular), ASUS, Abit, and DFI.  Foxconn is also coming
up strong-- they're the OEM for all of Dell's desktop and (possibly)
server motherboards these days.

I am more than willing to provide further assistance if we can figure
out what your starting point is.  Was your old board suitable for your
needs before it started to go south on you?

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, by the way-- my ATX power supply just
blew up and took out my floppy drive(!) and my main hard drive(!!) and
the problem turned out to be... bad capacitors!  Then I looked at my
mobo, and guess what?  MORE bad caps-- but I can re-cap the board
myself and not have to replace it (I really can't complain, though--
I've had the board since December 2001, ran it hard, and I won it in a
contest anyway).  I'm running from the Knoppix DVD for now until I
figure out how I'm going to shuffle a terabyte of HD space.

-- Mikey


From mat.enders at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 02:02:20 2007
From: mat.enders at gmail.com (Mathew Enders)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:02:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
Message-ID: <1183528940.7123.22.camel@daddymobile>

I have been working on getting a SAMBA server set up as a PDC at the
charter schoolwere we hold our meetings.  Well after several reinstalls,
due to borking it so bad it was just easier to start fresh, I have the
server up and running.  I am able to join machines to the domain.  Users
then also have the ability to log in from any joined machine and have
thier files and settings follow them (no easy task).  I however have one
problem left I am unable to solve.  When a user first logs onto the
server everything goes well the profile is created and all is good.
That is until they log out then log back in either from the same machine
or a different one.  Whith the second and all subsequent logons note pad
opens on the desktop with Desktop in the title bar and this in the body:

[.ShellClassInfo]
LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-21787

There is no Dektop.ini file in the desktop but there is one in My
Documents (as windows uses the for folder settings all over the place I
do not believe that it is for the desk top) it is the only other
Desktop.ini file I can find.  Here is what it contains:

[DeleteOnCopy]
Owner=cgurne00
Personalized=5
PersonalizedName=My Documents

Any suggestions to help this will be greatly appreciated.  Also here is
a copy of my smc.conf file:

# Basic smb.conf for working PDC

[global]
	netbios name = ARDVARC
	workgroup = GAUACA
	server string = Gaudior's PDC SAMBA server %v %h
	add machine script = /usr/sbin/useradd -s /bin/false \-d /dev/null %u
	security = user
	encrypt passwords = yes
	smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd
	local master = yes
	OS level = 64
	domain master = yes
	preferred master = yes
	domain logons = yes
	enable privileges = yes
	logon drive = H

[public]
	comment = For Testing Only Please Do Not Save Here
	path = /home/public
	read only = no

[netlogon]
	comment = Net Logon Service
	path = /home/netlogon
	read only = yes
	write list = +ntadmin

[homes]
	comment = Home
	valid users = %S
	read only = no
	browsable = no

[profile]
	comment = User Profiles
	path = /profiles
	valid users = %U
	create mode = 0600
	directory mode = 0700
	writable = yes
	browsable = no




From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  4 02:33:45 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:33:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
Message-ID: <295494.856.qm@web55502.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Im looking for something cheep cheep cheep that will run my AMD 1800+ and the gig of 3200 RAM that i have. other then that i dont care. Just want something to get my server back up untill i can afford a new nicer box.

Thanks
Jack

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 1:01:01 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Kernel panic

On 7/3/07, Jack Freeman wrote:

> There are a bunch of the caps that are swelled. Looks like its time for a
> new board. Where is there a good place to get them. I just moved into Fort
> Atkinson.

I don't know that area, so I don't know what stores are around.  I
also don't know what motherboard you are starting with
brand/model-wise (let us know), so I don't know what to suggest.
Here's some general advice.

First you have to decide what your price range is, then what you are
going to buy.  There is something to be said for salvaging your
current processor and RAM if the current system is powerful enough for
your needs-- what DO you have in the bad board?  You can check
http://www.PriceWatch.com for some prices and availability.

If you want someting more powerful-- or just plain newer-- you have a
decision ahead of you.  Due to (admittedly controversial) bug issues
with the Intel "Core" series, I cannot recommend that family of
processors  yet, but since you ARE using it as a server, the anemic
performance of the Intel integrated graphics is not a problem-- and
they are well-supported by Linux-- so a 2.6 GHz or higher Pentium 4
with an integrated-graphics chipset is more than OK.

AMD's chips are also a good choice for these applications, as well.

Remember, too, that newer boards use DDR2 memory, so you likely will
have to replace that as well.  The upside?   With WinVista sales in
the dumper, the bottom has dropped out of the memory market and prices
are near all-time lows.

Typical good board brands for server use include Tyan (sightly more
expensive, but popular), ASUS, Abit, and DFI.  Foxconn is also coming
up strong-- they're the OEM for all of Dell's desktop and (possibly)
server motherboards these days.

I am more than willing to provide further assistance if we can figure
out what your starting point is.  Was your old board suitable for your
needs before it started to go south on you?

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, by the way-- my ATX power supply just
blew up and took out my floppy drive(!) and my main hard drive(!!) and
the problem turned out to be... bad capacitors!  Then I looked at my
mobo, and guess what?  MORE bad caps-- but I can re-cap the board
myself and not have to replace it (I really can't complain, though--
I've had the board since December 2001, ran it hard, and I won it in a
contest anyway).  I'm running from the Knoppix DVD for now until I
figure out how I'm going to shuffle a terabyte of HD space.

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug







       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/ec0ebf2a/attachment.html>

From DRIVERAY at ameritech.net  Wed Jul  4 11:03:55 2007
From: DRIVERAY at ameritech.net (DRIVERAY at ameritech.net)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 07:03:55 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
Message-ID: <AA-B380211F14DB7F296AB295599093F798-ZZ@fipprd24>

I haven't tried SuSE 10.2 on a note book, haven't tried zen, and
I use KDE and thunderbird, not gnome and evolution, so I can't
add to Peter's comments.


Some of the issues I have encountered so far:
There is no kernel level automounter. The actually did away with
subfs with 10.1, most discussion of this seems to date from march
of '06. Subfs was a rather ugly cludge, but it did work, and I
had gotten used to it with 10.0. Now automounting of CDs and
other removable media is provided only processes of KDE (or I
guess gnome). If you boot to command line, or use a light weight
desktop, you will have to use manual mounting which means setting
up sudo, or giving all user's root. At least this is what I have
been able to discover so far. The system I set up does in fact
use KDE, so it is, so far, a theoretical problem.

The other glaring issue I encountered was that the first online
update decided to scramble my grub menu. I had set it up the way
I wanted it, but the online update decided to add back duplicates
 of some entries I had commented out, removed enteries I had
added, and scrambled the menu order. It wasn't hard to put it
back the way I wanted, but grrrr!

Besides these things it seems, so far, to be pretty solid.

Raymond McLaughlin

Peter Bart wrote:

>On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 11:36 -0700, David Lane wrote:
>> What are the issues with OpenSuSE?
>>
>> I was concidering moving to it.
>
>David,
>I run opensuse 10.2 on an IBM Thinkpad T30. There is a hack to
>get power consumption down to acceptable levels when suspended.
>The "Zen" updater simply sucks, as does the new improved main
>menu. I killed both, the former in favor of manually updating
>and the latter in favor of the "traditional" Gnome menu. Network
>manager sometimes goes astray, but it's not just opensuse and
>the same for evolution. All in all I'd say I'm very happy with
>it. It seems rock solid, suspends and resumes w/o incident. I
>was up to 45 days uptime before it mistakenly got rebooted.
>Battery life isn't the greatest compared to Ubuntu running on an
>identical machine, but okay. Old batteries and all. I will be
>loading opensuse on this second machine when I get some spare
>time, Ubuntu just doesn't dot as many "i's" as opensuse. Please
>bear in mind I can only compare to Ubuntu and the Maemo flavor
>of Debian. For my money, it just works.

>Best Regards,
>Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>



From rrcb21 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  4 12:19:07 2007
From: rrcb21 at yahoo.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:19:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
Message-ID: <747640.63458.qm@web82312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Make sure this file is not in the startup folder in both the users profile path
and in the All Users profile path. Then also check the Default User profile path to 
make sure this file isn't in added to every users profile the first time they log in.

If the file isn't there I am not sure what would be causing it to open on every login.

You might need to turn off the Hide hidden and system file settings in the folder settings in explorer (not IE).




----- Original Message ----
From: Mathew Enders <mat.enders at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 2:02:20 AM
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC

I have been working on getting a SAMBA server set up as a PDC at the
charter schoolwere we hold our meetings.  Well after several reinstalls,
due to borking it so bad it was just easier to start fresh, I have the
server up and running.  I am able to join machines to the domain.  Users
then also have the ability to log in from any joined machine and have
thier files and settings follow them (no easy task).  I however have one
problem left I am unable to solve.  When a user first logs onto the
server everything goes well the profile is created and all is good.
That is until they log out then log back in either from the same machine
or a different one.  Whith the second and all subsequent logons note pad
opens on the desktop with Desktop in the title bar and this in the body:

[.ShellClassInfo]
LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-21787

There is no Dektop.ini file in the desktop but there is one in My
Documents (as windows uses the for folder settings all over the place I
do not believe that it is for the desk top) it is the only other
Desktop.ini file I can find.  Here is what it contains:

[DeleteOnCopy]
Owner=cgurne00
Personalized=5
PersonalizedName=My Documents

Any suggestions to help this will be greatly appreciated.  Also here is
a copy of my smc.conf file:

# Basic smb.conf for working PDC

[global]
    netbios name = ARDVARC
    workgroup = GAUACA
    server string = Gaudior's PDC SAMBA server %v %h
    add machine script = /usr/sbin/useradd -s /bin/false \-d /dev/null %u
    security = user
    encrypt passwords = yes
    smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd
    local master = yes
    OS level = 64
    domain master = yes
    preferred master = yes
    domain logons = yes
    enable privileges = yes
    logon drive = H

[public]
    comment = For Testing Only Please Do Not Save Here
    path = /home/public
    read only = no

[netlogon]
    comment = Net Logon Service
    path = /home/netlogon
    read only = yes
    write list = +ntadmin

[homes]
    comment = Home
    valid users = %S
    read only = no
    browsable = no

[profile]
    comment = User Profiles
    path = /profiles
    valid users = %U
    create mode = 0600
    directory mode = 0700
    writable = yes
    browsable = no


_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Wed Jul  4 12:41:28 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:41:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA running as a PDC
Message-ID: <1183567288.7123.33.camel@daddymobile>

I have been working on getting a SAMBA server set up as a PDC at the
charter schoolwere we hold our meetings.  Well after several reinstalls,
due to borking it so bad it was just easier to start fresh, I have the
server up and running.  I am able to join machines to the domain.  Users
then also have the ability to log in from any joined machine and have
thier files and settings follow them (no easy task).  I however have one
problem left I am unable to solve.  When a user first logs onto the
server everything goes well the profile is created and all is good.
That is until they log out then log back in either from the same machine
or a different one.  Whith the second and all subsequent logons note pad
opens on the desktop with Desktop in the title bar and this in the body:

[.ShellClassInfo]
LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-21787

There is no Dektop.ini file in the desktop but there is one in My
Documents (as windows uses the for folder settings all over the place I
do not believe that it is for the desk top) it is the only other
Desktop.ini file I can find.  Here is what it contains:

[DeleteOnCopy]
Owner=cgurne00
Personalized=5
PersonalizedName=My Documents

Any suggestions to help this will be greatly appreciated.  Also here is
a copy of my smc.conf file:

# Basic smb.conf for working PDC

[global]
        netbios name = ARDVARC
        workgroup = GAUACA
        server string = Gaudior's PDC SAMBA server %v %h
        add machine script = /usr/sbin/useradd -s /bin/false
\-d /dev/null %u
        security = user
        encrypt passwords = yes
        smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd
        local master = yes
        OS level = 64
        domain master = yes
        preferred master = yes
        domain logons = yes
        enable privileges = yes
        logon drive = H

[public]
        comment = For Testing Only Please Do Not Save Here
        path = /home/public
        read only = no

[netlogon]
        comment = Net Logon Service
        path = /home/netlogon
        read only = yes
        write list = +ntadmin

[homes]
        comment = Home
        valid users = %S
        read only = no
        browsable = no

[profile]
        comment = User Profiles
        path = /profiles
        valid users = %U
        create mode = 0600
        directory mode = 0700
        writable = yes
        browsable = no





From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Wed Jul  4 14:53:23 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:53:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA running as a PDC
In-Reply-To: <1183567288.7123.33.camel@daddymobile>
References: <1183567288.7123.33.camel@daddymobile>
Message-ID: <1183575203.7123.38.camel@daddymobile>

Sorry for the double post meant send this one elswhere please only reply
to the other post
On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 12:41 -0400, Mathew Enders wrote:
> I have been working on getting a SAMBA server set up as a PDC at the
> charter schoolwere we hold our meetings.  Well after several reinstalls,
> due to borking it so bad it was just easier to start fresh, I have the
> server up and running.  I am able to join machines to the domain.  Users
> then also have the ability to log in from any joined machine and have
> thier files and settings follow them (no easy task).  I however have one
> problem left I am unable to solve.  When a user first logs onto the
> server everything goes well the profile is created and all is good.
> That is until they log out then log back in either from the same machine
> or a different one.  Whith the second and all subsequent logons note pad
> opens on the desktop with Desktop in the title bar and this in the body:
> 
> [.ShellClassInfo]
> LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-21787
> 
> There is no Dektop.ini file in the desktop but there is one in My
> Documents (as windows uses the for folder settings all over the place I
> do not believe that it is for the desk top) it is the only other
> Desktop.ini file I can find.  Here is what it contains:
> 
> [DeleteOnCopy]
> Owner=cgurne00
> Personalized=5
> PersonalizedName=My Documents
> 
> Any suggestions to help this will be greatly appreciated.  Also here is
> a copy of my smc.conf file:
> 
> # Basic smb.conf for working PDC
> 
> [global]
>         netbios name = ARDVARC
>         workgroup = GAUACA
>         server string = Gaudior's PDC SAMBA server %v %h
>         add machine script = /usr/sbin/useradd -s /bin/false
> \-d /dev/null %u
>         security = user
>         encrypt passwords = yes
>         smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd
>         local master = yes
>         OS level = 64
>         domain master = yes
>         preferred master = yes
>         domain logons = yes
>         enable privileges = yes
>         logon drive = H
> 
> [public]
>         comment = For Testing Only Please Do Not Save Here
>         path = /home/public
>         read only = no
> 
> [netlogon]
>         comment = Net Logon Service
>         path = /home/netlogon
>         read only = yes
>         write list = +ntadmin
> 
> [homes]
>         comment = Home
>         valid users = %S
>         read only = no
>         browsable = no
> 
> [profile]
>         comment = User Profiles
>         path = /profiles
>         valid users = %U
>         create mode = 0600
>         directory mode = 0700
>         writable = yes
>         browsable = no
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 16:12:43 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 16:12:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
In-Reply-To: <295494.856.qm@web55502.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <295494.856.qm@web55502.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707041312u5931d3eas8dc71680bb69c2e9@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/4/07, Jack Freeman wrote:
>
> I'm looking for something cheep cheep cheep that will run my AMD 1800+ and
> the gig of 3200 RAM that i have. other then that i dont care. Just want
> something to get my server back up untill i can afford a new nicer box.

Right.  How's this?  Decent, cheap, and still useful later... even I'm tempted!

<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813185074>

-- Mikey


From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  5 01:50:59 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 22:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
Message-ID: <676953.70948.qm@web55510.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hay that looks like it will work for me, if the store in town dosent have anything I think I'll go with it.

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 3:12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Kernel panic

On 7/4/07, Jack Freeman wrote:
>
> I'm looking for something cheep cheep cheep that will run my AMD 1800+ and
> the gig of 3200 RAM that i have. other then that i dont care. Just want
> something to get my server back up untill i can afford a new nicer box.

Right.  How's this?  Decent, cheap, and still useful later... even I'm tempted!

<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813185074>

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug







       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070704/f21d4852/attachment.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  5 08:05:41 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 05:05:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <AA-B380211F14DB7F296AB295599093F798-ZZ@fipprd24>
Message-ID: <23909.55104.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

As I said I have an off brand Motherboard.  I downloaded OpenSUSE 10.2 this week and it was able to auto detect the hardware, that was great however I'm getting curruption errors for the disk image.
   
  This Version has more SATA drive support.
   
  David 
  

DRIVERAY at ameritech.net wrote:
  I haven't tried SuSE 10.2 on a note book, haven't tried zen, and
I use KDE and thunderbird, not gnome and evolution, so I can't
add to Peter's comments.


Some of the issues I have encountered so far:
There is no kernel level automounter. The actually did away with
subfs with 10.1, most discussion of this seems to date from march
of '06. Subfs was a rather ugly cludge, but it did work, and I
had gotten used to it with 10.0. Now automounting of CDs and
other removable media is provided only processes of KDE (or I
guess gnome). If you boot to command line, or use a light weight
desktop, you will have to use manual mounting which means setting
up sudo, or giving all user's root. At least this is what I have
been able to discover so far. The system I set up does in fact
use KDE, so it is, so far, a theoretical problem.

The other glaring issue I encountered was that the first online
update decided to scramble my grub menu. I had set it up the way
I wanted it, but the online update decided to add back duplicates
of some entries I had commented out, removed enteries I had
added, and scrambled the menu order. It wasn't hard to put it
back the way I wanted, but grrrr!

Besides these things it seems, so far, to be pretty solid.

Raymond McLaughlin

Peter Bart wrote:

>On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 11:36 -0700, David Lane wrote:
>> What are the issues with OpenSuSE?
>>
>> I was concidering moving to it.
>
>David,
>I run opensuse 10.2 on an IBM Thinkpad T30. There is a hack to
>get power consumption down to acceptable levels when suspended.
>The "Zen" updater simply sucks, as does the new improved main
>menu. I killed both, the former in favor of manually updating
>and the latter in favor of the "traditional" Gnome menu. Network
>manager sometimes goes astray, but it's not just opensuse and
>the same for evolution. All in all I'd say I'm very happy with
>it. It seems rock solid, suspends and resumes w/o incident. I
>was up to 45 days uptime before it mistakenly got rebooted.
>Battery life isn't the greatest compared to Ubuntu running on an
>identical machine, but okay. Old batteries and all. I will be
>loading opensuse on this second machine when I get some spare
>time, Ubuntu just doesn't dot as many "i's" as opensuse. Please
>bear in mind I can only compare to Ubuntu and the Maemo flavor
>of Debian. For my money, it just works.

>Best Regards,
>Peter Bart 


_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


 
---------------------------------
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070705/a3d10bc8/attachment.html>

From dcs.galco at gmail.com  Thu Jul  5 10:00:10 2007
From: dcs.galco at gmail.com (Deepak Chandrashekar)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 10:00:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
Message-ID: <bd2841150707050700r5d0b8bbbjf1302bdaa2b185a5@mail.gmail.com>

Additionally, you could also check the HKLM/Software/Microsoft/Windows/Run
registry branch for any programs started automatically.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070705/5d9342e4/attachment.html>

From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Thu Jul  5 14:24:46 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:24:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
In-Reply-To: <747640.63458.qm@web82312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <747640.63458.qm@web82312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1183659886.7123.49.camel@daddymobile>

Thank you to those who replied.  The answer turns out to be not SAMBA
related as I thought but a MS issue.  The answer is here:

http://support.microsoft.com/?id=330132





From DRIVERAY at ameritech.net  Thu Jul  5 15:58:22 2007
From: DRIVERAY at ameritech.net (DRIVERAY at ameritech.net)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:58:22 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
Message-ID: <AA-7B063F687DC12A166CF89DE61D7CF097-ZZ@fipprd24>

>As I said I have an off brand Motherboard.

Have you torture test this mobo? Boot into knoppix (runlevel 3)
and import the kerenel source tree, and run continuous kernel
compiles for 24 hour or so. If it does this without errors, then
run memtest for another day. 

Also there are kernel work arounds for known buggy BIOs, but they
often don't auto-detect.

>I downloaded OpenSUSE 10.2 this week and it was able to auto
>detect the hardware, that was great however I'm getting
>corruption errors for the disk image.
 
Do you mean the fresh disk or iso is failing the install's built
in self test?
Do you have a known good system you can use do download and burn
the ISO(s) on? I recommend the DVD over the CD set if you can
swing it.

>This Version has more SATA drive support.

The system I set up is my first with SATA. Sound like I held off
about the the right amount.

One big improvement I see relative to previous SuSE versions is
in the dependencies in the RPMs. Previously I would run into
situations where I would want to remove a few unused packages to
free up some disk space only, to be told other installed packages
depended on the one I wanted to delete. When I elected to delete
these I soon encountered an absurd cascade of dependencies that
forced me to abort the endeavor or else tell the system to ignore
a huge bunch of dependencies with out any idea how important any
of them really were. In one case I discovered some sound related
packages had been installed on a computer that had no sound card.
After about three iterations of dependency checks I was at the
point of being told that I would also need to uninstall the X
windowing system. Huh?

In SuSE 10.2 I did some package pruning after the install, and
the few dependencies I was shown were few and entirely reasonable.

Raymond McLaughlin

>David 



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  5 15:15:00 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <AA-7B063F687DC12A166CF89DE61D7CF097-ZZ@fipprd24>
Message-ID: <20070705191500.51898.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The disk passes checksum when it is burned.  BUT it fails the self test at install.  I have burned it 3 times. 
   
  On this same system I loaded windows and stopped at the OS Key. when it booted up again it showed the normal windows logo. Though I am learning a lot by fire, It will be good to move foward on my projects.
   
  I have a choice Order OpenSUSE Boxed, or get an other botherboard (that supports, SATA-(2), DDR2, Core? 2 Duo E6600) I really dont want to putt the CPU off that motherboard. 
   
  And NO, I'm not making it into a windows pc.  
   
  
DRIVERAY at ameritech.net wrote:
  >As I said I have an off brand Motherboard.

Have you torture test this mobo? Boot into knoppix (runlevel 3)
and import the kerenel source tree, and run continuous kernel
compiles for 24 hour or so. If it does this without errors, then
run memtest for another day. 

Also there are kernel work arounds for known buggy BIOs, but they
often don't auto-detect.

>I downloaded OpenSUSE 10.2 this week and it was able to auto
>detect the hardware, that was great however I'm getting
>corruption errors for the disk image.

Do you mean the fresh disk or iso is failing the install's built
in self test?
Do you have a known good system you can use do download and burn
the ISO(s) on? I recommend the DVD over the CD set if you can
swing it.

>This Version has more SATA drive support.

The system I set up is my first with SATA. Sound like I held off
about the the right amount.

One big improvement I see relative to previous SuSE versions is
in the dependencies in the RPMs. Previously I would run into
situations where I would want to remove a few unused packages to
free up some disk space only, to be told other installed packages
depended on the one I wanted to delete. When I elected to delete
these I soon encountered an absurd cascade of dependencies that
forced me to abort the endeavor or else tell the system to ignore
a huge bunch of dependencies with out any idea how important any
of them really were. In one case I discovered some sound related
packages had been installed on a computer that had no sound card.
After about three iterations of dependency checks I was at the
point of being told that I would also need to uninstall the X
windowing system. Huh?

In SuSE 10.2 I did some package pruning after the install, and
the few dependencies I was shown were few and entirely reasonable.

Raymond McLaughlin

>David 

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070705/47b034d2/attachment.html>

From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Jul  5 16:40:57 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 16:40:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <20070705191500.51898.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AA-7B063F687DC12A166CF89DE61D7CF097-ZZ@fipprd24>
	<20070705191500.51898.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070705164057.067e672c@Nokia-N800-10>

On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The disk passes checksum when it is burned.  BUT it fails the self
> test at install.  I have burned it 3 times. 

	From what I've been told the selftest is crucial to opensuse.
Try using a different box and maybe a different connection. If it fails
the selftest it's no good. Check the archives at <mosg.org>, they
helped me install and then upgrade.

Best Regards, 
-- 
Peter The Plumber sm on the Road
State Licensed Plumber
State Certified Backflow Device Tester
Factory Trained Boiler Install/Service
<http://petertheplumber.net>
24h Service 313.215.5175


From rborromeo at the5spot.com  Thu Jul  5 17:36:10 2007
From: rborromeo at the5spot.com (rborromeo at the5spot.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 17:36:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
References: <747640.63458.qm@web82312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1183659886.7123.49.camel@daddymobile>
Message-ID: <056a01c7bf4c$816443c0$0300c80a@terzo>

Has anyone been able to get Vista to work with Samba as a PDC? I've followed 
all the write ups about changing the Security policy to allow NTLM 
authentication but it just doesn't work for me.



From Stan at mcomputersolutions.com  Thu Jul  5 22:46:50 2007
From: Stan at mcomputersolutions.com (Stan Green)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 22:46:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] NFS Question
Message-ID: <200707052246.50860.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>

I have two Linux boxes. One is running as an nfs server and the other is the 
client.  On the server I export / which has a directory /Data. I have the 
device /dev/md0 mounted to /Data. All seems fine on the server. However when 
I mount / on the client, I can see the /Data directory but not the data that 
is on /dev/md0. A ls on /Data, from the client, shows empty. An ls on the 
server produces the expected result.

One more thing, if it means anything, if I use smb to mount /, everything 
works as expected. So my thought is it can be done with nfs, but I cannot 
find anything that addresses this issue.

How do I configure either the server or client to be able to see the /Data 
directory?

Thanks,
Stan Green


From set at pobox.com  Fri Jul  6 00:09:19 2007
From: set at pobox.com (Paul)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:09:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] NFS Question
In-Reply-To: <200707052246.50860.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200707052246.50860.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <20070706040919.GA5850@squish.home.loc>

Stan Green <Stan at mcomputersolutions.com>, on Thu Jul 05, 2007 [10:46:50 PM] said:
> I have two Linux boxes. One is running as an nfs server and the other is the 
> client.  On the server I export / which has a directory /Data. I have the 
> device /dev/md0 mounted to /Data. All seems fine on the server. However when 
> I mount / on the client, I can see the /Data directory but not the data that 
> is on /dev/md0. A ls on /Data, from the client, shows empty. An ls on the 
> server produces the expected result.
> 
> One more thing, if it means anything, if I use smb to mount /, everything 
> works as expected. So my thought is it can be done with nfs, but I cannot 
> find anything that addresses this issue.
> 
> How do I configure either the server or client to be able to see the /Data 
> directory?
> 
> Thanks,
> Stan Green

	man 5 exports
	/nohide

Paul
set at pobox.com


From otakurider at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 09:19:58 2007
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:19:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
Message-ID: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>

Any one played with the Radeon 9200 and duel monitors with Fedora or
Debian.  Looking to update my Fedora 5 with Matrox G450 duel monitors to
something that can do 3D  want to try beryl or Compiz.  If anyone has any
recommendations for video card (must have duel video monitor outputs) 2 or 3
DVI is better but mix will work.


Thanks.

Pat
VP
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070706/89e9c121/attachment.html>

From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Fri Jul  6 09:51:26 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:51:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
Message-ID: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hi,

Is there a way to find out the name of the font that is being used by default in xterm. I open an xterm on one of the linux machines today and the font is 'hug'. I would like to use a smaller version of the same font.

TIA for any help

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From tmorris at ugs.com  Fri Jul  6 10:23:46 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:23:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Office 2007 overhead
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90706272107p73b3a2d2n40972fbaace3a98e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323C5CE@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

It's all the features man! They aren't free, ya know! OpenOffice...
Please,  like it has even close to the features of Office 2007...
Guuuuaaaaddd


(I'm being sarcastic, of course)


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Jeff Hanson
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:08 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: [mdlug] Office 2007 overhead

I was attempting to install Office Ultimate 2007 DVD on XP in VMWare.
I didn't have enough space  so I started disabling options.  After
setting EVERYTHING to "Not Available" it still needs 791MB.  With
everything set to "Run from My Computer" it wants 1867MB.  Full OOo +
Java 1.6 totals 328MB.  Why does Office need that much space?  Is the
EULA that big?
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From DRIVERAY at ameritech.net  Fri Jul  6 12:12:13 2007
From: DRIVERAY at ameritech.net (DRIVERAY at ameritech.net)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:12:13 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
Message-ID: <AA-25EDA3BC388E48D1CC9913FAFA875C25-ZZ@fipprd25>

David Lane wrote:
>The disk passes checksum when it is burned.

The disk itself, or the iso file?

> BUT it fails the self test at install.
> I have burned it 3 times.

Have you tried starting the install process up to, and including
the self test on another system? If it checks out OK then your
new system can't calculate md5summ correctly, and wouldn't rely
on it for anything. If, on the other hand, the new disks all fail
the self tests on another machine I would suspect that the
md5sums set was out of date for the files on the disk, and I
would ignore the errors and proceed with the installation.

I hope this helps.
Raymond McLaughlin



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  6 11:52:43 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 08:52:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <AA-25EDA3BC388E48D1CC9913FAFA875C25-ZZ@fipprd25>
Message-ID: <100947.56070.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It is still pointing to the mother board or the cd/dvd. (I think)
   
  

DRIVERAY at ameritech.net wrote:
  David Lane wrote:
>The disk passes checksum when it is burned.

The disk itself, or the iso file?

> BUT it fails the self test at install.
> I have burned it 3 times.

Have you tried starting the install process up to, and including
the self test on another system? If it checks out OK then your
new system can't calculate md5summ correctly, and wouldn't rely
on it for anything. If, on the other hand, the new disks all fail
the self tests on another machine I would suspect that the
md5sums set was out of date for the files on the disk, and I
would ignore the errors and proceed with the installation.

I hope this helps.
Raymond McLaughlin

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070706/bc4a0308/attachment.html>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 13:43:05 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:43:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
In-Reply-To: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707061043k28a732fdmded768c53f0c964@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/07, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:
> Any one played with the Radeon 9200 and duel monitors with Fedora or Debian.
>  Looking to update my Fedora 5 with Matrox G450 duel monitors to something
> that can do 3D  want to try beryl or Compiz.  If anyone has any
> recommendations for video card (must have duel video monitor outputs) 2 or 3
> DVI is better but mix will work.

Last time I tried dual-head with Compiz/Beryl it didn't work.  The
second head was always black.  X limitations may be fixed in the next
version of X.  If you are just running dual monitors then it might not
be a problem.


From brian at dangerbacon.com  Fri Jul  6 14:16:30 2007
From: brian at dangerbacon.com (Brian)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:16:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
In-Reply-To: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <6f64e9540707061116v6015933bm5e6446ac3ae7f321@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/07, R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there a way to find out the name of the font that is being used by default in xterm. I open an xterm on one of the linux machines today and the font is 'hug'. I would like to use a smaller version of the same font.
>
I'm not certain on how to tell which font your using but by holding
ctrl and right clicking in the xterm you can change the font size
manually.

-- 
Fati
"It's not stupid, it's advaaanced!" - Tallest Purple


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Fri Jul  6 15:25:57 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:25:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
Message-ID: <31561007.1183749957541.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Thanks, that really helped. 

I came in this morning and used my script for opening an xterm which basically did..

xterm -fg white -bg black -fa menu12 -title $1

and the font size was huge. I don't know why I had '-fa' instead of '-fn' and what 'menu12' was but it did give me an xterm with font acceptable to me. But something that the sys admins had done probably changed. BTW, I accessing this machine from Windoze through Exceed.
 
-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian <brian at dangerbacon.com>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 2:16 PM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
>
>On 7/6/07, R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Is there a way to find out the name of the font that is being used by default in xterm. I open an xterm on one of the linux machines today and the font is 'hug'. I would like to use a smaller version of the same font.
>>
>I'm not certain on how to tell which font your using but by holding
>ctrl and right clicking in the xterm you can change the font size
>manually.
>
>-- 
>Fati
>"It's not stupid, it's advaaanced!" - Tallest Purple
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  6 16:07:44 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:07:44 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
In-Reply-To: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200707061307.45062.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

On Friday 06 July 2007, - wrote:
> If anyone has any recommendations for video card (must have duel
> video monitor outputs) 2 or 3 DVI is better but mix will work.?

PNY(?) NVidia GT 7800.  Dual DVI.  Great performance on 1920x1200 flat 
panel.  Plenty fast.  Painless driver support in Kubuntu.

ATI is still playing catch-up on Linux driver support.  Cannot emphasize 
the last point enough.  My brother, for example, still insists on 
purchasing ATI hardware and then tries to run Linux with it.  Arghhh!  
If you have a choice, just buy Nvidia.  The drivers just work, and work 
well.

Cheers,

Mike


-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  6 18:00:40 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:00:40 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707061043k28a732fdmded768c53f0c964@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
	<b02c40e90707061043k28a732fdmded768c53f0c964@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200707061500.40076.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

On Friday 06 July 2007, Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On 7/6/07, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Any one played with the Radeon 9200 and duel monitors with Fedora
> > or Debian. Looking to update my Fedora 5 with Matrox G450 duel
> > monitors to something that can do 3D  want to try beryl or Compiz. 
> > If anyone has any recommendations for video card (must have duel
> > video monitor outputs) 2 or 3 DVI is better but mix will work.
>
> Last time I tried dual-head with Compiz/Beryl it didn't work.  The
> second head was always black.  X limitations may be fixed in the next
> version of X.  If you are just running dual monitors then it might
> not be a problem.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

Beryl now works with Dual monitors -- one big box spans them both 
(although there is an option for a box on each screen too).

For Kubuntu 7.04 fans, it works nearly out of the box.  Simply install 
auquamarine, beryl-kubuntu, beryl-manager, and emerald (the last should 
be optional).  And then, add composite switches in xorg.conf:
...
Section "Device"
    Identifier     "Device0" # depends on your config
    Driver         "nvidia"
    Option         "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps"
    Option         "AddARGBGLXVisuals" "True"
    VendorName     "NVIDIA Corporation"
EndSection
...
Section "DRI"
    Mode 0666
EndSection

Section "Extensions"
    Option "Composite" "Enable"
EndSection

Volia!  Restart X, and spin da cube.


-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Jul  6 23:47:40 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 23:47:40 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Benchmark Data Needed
Message-ID: <468F0CDC.6080308@comcast.net>

This is Garry's wife, Sue.  I am writing something on Linux for a
college course & need some data.  Does anyone have any websites with
recent data of Linux speed vs Windows speed?  I'd also like to pin down
the number of lines of source code in Linux vs the number in Windows if
possible.

Does anyone out there have any good places to look?

Thanks!

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From set at pobox.com  Sat Jul  7 02:11:29 2007
From: set at pobox.com (Paul)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 02:11:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Benchmark Data Needed
In-Reply-To: <468F0CDC.6080308@comcast.net>
References: <468F0CDC.6080308@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070707061129.GB5850@squish.home.loc>

Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net>, on Fri Jul 06, 2007 [11:47:40 PM] said:
> This is Garry's wife, Sue.  I am writing something on Linux for a
> college course & need some data.  Does anyone have any websites with
> recent data of Linux speed vs Windows speed?  I'd also like to pin down
> the number of lines of source code in Linux vs the number in Windows if
> possible.
> 
> Does anyone out there have any good places to look?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- 

	Hi;

	Speed can be hard to pin down; are you talking about how fast
OpenOffice loads when using Gnome as your window manager, vs. windows?
How fast the machine goes from cold boot to login prompt? Which can
serve the most web pages/sec? (static or dynamic?) Raw disk performance?
[Google keywords to search on here would include 'linux windows benchmarks
comparision' etc.]
	One would think the lines of code would be easier to quantify,
but thats tricky too. Windows Vista is generally pegged at 50 million LOC,
but thats the whole distribution. Distributions like Debian can weigh in
at much more than that, but thats because Debian includes 10's of thousands
of programs. A more fair comparison would involve just the kernel code.
I dont know what the Vista kernel has, but the linux kernel is currently
about 8 million LOC. But if you track down the LOC for Vista's kernel,
you should take into account that the Linux kernel LOC is over half
drivers and over a quarter code for different architectures. Windows
at best supported 2 architectures, and includes very few drivers. Linux
has wads of drivers in the kernel code base (very few drivers
exist outside the kernel code base), and supports 25 different
cpu architectures. The linux kernel almost certainly has a much
much smaller core than Vista.

Paul
set at pobox.com

https://ols2006.108.redhat.com/2007/Reprints/kroah-hartman-Reprint.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code




From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul  7 11:06:03 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 11:06:03 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
Message-ID: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>

Hello,

Except for the fact that everything was done on a Linux machine
using Linux tools, this topic does not actually involve Linux.
But since a lot of people on this list are versed in networking,
I thought it might be appropriate to present it here.

Quite frequently I receive spam that seems to originate from
bona fide IP addresses that would not likely be in the spamming
business.  For example, just today I noticed a spam message with
both the "From:" and "Reply-to:" fields containing abacus21.com,
which is a legitimate business located in Buffalo, NY, serving the
hospitality industry.  Of course, these fields can be spoofed, but
the complete header does show the message as originating at
abacus21.com:

Return-Path: <a-8 at abacus21.com>
Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
	by xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eaDn013984
	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:36 -0400
X-ClientAddr: 221.133.163.182
Received: from [221.133.163.182] ([221.133.163.182])
	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eWWn013906
	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:33 -0400
Received: from [221.133.163.182] by abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:40:35 -0900

(The purpose of the "xxxxxxxxxx.xxx" is to obscure the actual receiving
address, which is not important for this discussion.)

The host command indicates that the originating address is definitely
abacus21.com:

[/]# host abacus21.com
abacus21.com mail is handled by 20 abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 20 abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogicmx.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 30 abacus21.com.inbound30.mxlogic.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 30 abacus21.com.inbound30.mxlogicmx.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 10 abacus21.com.inbound10.mxlogic.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 10 abacus21.com.inbound10.mxlogicmx.net.

Whenever I take the time to check, I can find many other examples
of this.  Just last week, I spotted joespools.com, a swimming pool
installer from Georgia, as another source of spam.  There have been
countless other cases.

Is this an example of the fabled Botnet or Zombie operation?  That is,
could abacus21.com have been hijacked for the purpose of sending spam?
Or is the explanation just a simple matter of abacus21.com being
a relay?

AK



From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Sat Jul  7 02:48:17 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Sat,  7 Jul 2007 02:48:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
In-Reply-To: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	(rkannan@peoplepc.com)
References: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070707064817.54EEE20AAE9@starfox.local>

R,

> Is there a way to find out the name of the font that is being used by
> default in xterm. I open an xterm on one of the linux machines today and the
> font is 'hug'. I would like to use a smaller version of the same font.

You can query X resources interactively with appres(1).

    bash> appres XTerm | grep -i font
    ...
    *VT100*font:  -misc-fixed-medium-r-*-*-13-120-75-75-c-60-iso10646-1
    ...

See X(7) and appres(1) for further details.



Most X clients including xterm, select their default font, geometry, size,
... based on "X resources".  X resources are key-value pairs selected by
prefix string from files found in directories like /usr/X11/lib/app-defaults/
.

Traditionally, resource names (keys) for an application begin with the
capitalized application name, preceded by a capital X if the name
begins with an x.  xterm(1) searches for XTerm.

Hopefully helpful,
--
Dr. B


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Sat Jul  7 14:40:01 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
In-Reply-To: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <52952.216.144.215.245.1183833601.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

A. Kalten wrote:
> Quite frequently I receive spam that seems to originate from
> bona fide IP addresses that would not likely be in the spamming
> business.  For example, just today I noticed a spam message with
> both the "From:" and "Reply-to:" fields containing abacus21.com,
> which is a legitimate business located in Buffalo, NY, serving the
> hospitality industry.  Of course, these fields can be spoofed, but
> the complete header does show the message as originating at
> abacus21.com:

Not really.  The only header that you can believe is the
first Received header.  If it says it came from a server
you can trust, you can then believe the next Received
header.  Keep doing this until you come to the first
server you don't know or trust.  Notice that means you
can't trust that the Return-Path, To, From or Reply-To
headers, unless you trust every Received header.

> Return-Path: <a-8 at abacus21.com>
> Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
> 	by xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eaDn013984
> 	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:36 -0400
> X-ClientAddr: 221.133.163.182
> Received: from [221.133.163.182] ([221.133.163.182])
> 	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id
> l678eWWn013906
> 	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:33 -0400
> Received: from [221.133.163.182] by abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net;
> Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:40:35 -0900

Let's look at your headers.  The first Received shows
that xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (this must be your mail server)
received it from barium.ypsi.provide.net.  We can likely
trust them, since they are likely your ISP.  The second
header says it came from 221.133.163.182.  Since we don't
know who that is and they don't have a hostname associated
with that address, we can't trust anything else in this
message to be accurate.  Thus we don't know whether or
not it did come from abacus21.com.

> The host command indicates that the originating address is definitely
> abacus21.com:
>
> [/]# host abacus21.com
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 20 abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 20 abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogicmx.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 30 abacus21.com.inbound30.mxlogic.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 30 abacus21.com.inbound30.mxlogicmx.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 10 abacus21.com.inbound10.mxlogic.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 10 abacus21.com.inbound10.mxlogicmx.net.

All the host command shows is what IP addresses abacus21.com
uses to accept email.  It doesn't tell us a thing about the
message you received.

> Whenever I take the time to check, I can find many other examples
> of this.  Just last week, I spotted joespools.com, a swimming pool
> installer from Georgia, as another source of spam.  There have been
> countless other cases.
>
> Is this an example of the fabled Botnet or Zombie operation?  That is,
> could abacus21.com have been hijacked for the purpose of sending spam?
> Or is the explanation just a simple matter of abacus21.com being
> a relay?

It's most likely from a botnet or zombie.  There's big money
out there for people who can automate the delivery of spam
while hiding their identities.

c




From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul  7 15:32:59 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:32:59 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
In-Reply-To: <52952.216.144.215.245.1183833601.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
	<52952.216.144.215.245.1183833601.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <20070707153259.b058832c.akalten@comcast.net>

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
"Carl T. Miller" <millerc at cantonpl.org> wrote:

> 
> Let's look at your headers.  The first Received shows
> that xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (this must be your mail server)
> received it from barium.ypsi.provide.net.  We can likely
> trust them, since they are likely your ISP.  The second
> header says it came from 221.133.163.182.  Since we don't
> know who that is and they don't have a hostname associated
> with that address, we can't trust anything else in this
> message to be accurate.  Thus we don't know whether or
> not it did come from abacus21.com.
> 
 
> It's most likely from a botnet or zombie.  There's big money
> out there for people who can automate the delivery of spam
> while hiding their identities.
> 

OK.  I see what is happening.  For some reason I had overlooked
221.133.163.182.

The main point is that abacus21.com is not a part
of this botnet.  At first I actually thought about
notifying abacus21.com to tell them that their mail server
might be compromised.  But the header information indicates
that it is most likely just a deception.

This pattern is similar in a lot of other spam that I
receive.  For example, here is another header of the
same form:

Return-Path: <a-acero at aef.wh.uni-dortmund.de>
Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
	by myserver.biz (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l67GSgDF021782
	for <info at myserver.biz>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:28:43 -0400
X-ClientAddr: 91.15.216.178
Received: from p5B0FD8B2.dip.t-dialin.net (p5B0FD8B2.dip.t-dialin.net [91.15.216.178])
	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l67GSYEK021726
	for <info at northernlightsphoto.biz>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:28:34 -0400
Received: from [91.15.216.178] by aef.wh.uni-dortmund.de; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 16:28:22 -0100


In this case, even though uni-dortmund.de is a legitimate
university in Germany, the fact that it appears following this dubious
91.15.216.178 address makes the uni-dortmund.de location just another
part of the deception.  Also, the info says uni-dortmund.de only
receives from 91.15.216.178 but doesn't send it anywhere else.

Thanks for clearing this up.

AK



From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  8 02:04:16 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 23:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] new system
Message-ID: <657424.39685.qm@web55509.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Ok my caps on my mobo decided to swell and instead of getting a new mobo
i decided to wate until i can afford a new system.
I wanted to get imput on what proccer, mobo, hd, and power supply. Im
going to be using this for a web/mail server. I would like to use it
for a media server that i can use for just internal use. Looking for a
good distro to use for this as well.

thanks 
Jack






       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070707/bd46fc6d/attachment.html>

From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jul  8 08:50:24 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (dean)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 08:50:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
Message-ID: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>

Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:  
Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have 
converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?

At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  

Does it have to do with 3d graphics?   Hypermesh, Ansa, and Star CD all 
use graphics, and they all exist for linux.   We use them on linux.    
And abaqus, I think.   

Is it politics and/or M$ money?     

TIA, &, Scratching my head, Dean





From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Sun Jul  8 10:11:03 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:11:03 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
In-Reply-To: <20070707153259.b058832c.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>	<52952.216.144.215.245.1183833601.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
	<20070707153259.b058832c.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4690F077.2080204@starline-ent.com>

A. Kalten wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
> "Carl T. Miller" <millerc at cantonpl.org> wrote:
> 
>> Let's look at your headers.  The first Received shows
>> that xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (this must be your mail server)
>> received it from barium.ypsi.provide.net.  We can likely
>> trust them, since they are likely your ISP.  The second
>> header says it came from 221.133.163.182.  Since we don't
>> know who that is and they don't have a hostname associated
>> with that address, we can't trust anything else in this
>> message to be accurate.  Thus we don't know whether or
>> not it did come from abacus21.com.
>>
>  
>> It's most likely from a botnet or zombie.  There's big money
>> out there for people who can automate the delivery of spam
>> while hiding their identities.
>>
> 
> OK.  I see what is happening.  For some reason I had overlooked
> 221.133.163.182.
> 
> The main point is that abacus21.com is not a part
> of this botnet.  At first I actually thought about
> notifying abacus21.com to tell them that their mail server
> might be compromised.  But the header information indicates
> that it is most likely just a deception.
> 
> This pattern is similar in a lot of other spam that I
> receive.  For example, here is another header of the
> same form:
> 
> Return-Path: <a-acero at aef.wh.uni-dortmund.de>
> Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
> 	by myserver.biz (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l67GSgDF021782
> 	for <info at myserver.biz>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:28:43 -0400
> X-ClientAddr: 91.15.216.178
> Received: from p5B0FD8B2.dip.t-dialin.net (p5B0FD8B2.dip.t-dialin.net [91.15.216.178])
> 	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l67GSYEK021726
> 	for <info at northernlightsphoto.biz>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:28:34 -0400
> Received: from [91.15.216.178] by aef.wh.uni-dortmund.de; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 16:28:22 -0100
> 
> 
> In this case, even though uni-dortmund.de is a legitimate
> university in Germany, the fact that it appears following this dubious
> 91.15.216.178 address makes the uni-dortmund.de location just another
> part of the deception.  Also, the info says uni-dortmund.de only
> receives from 91.15.216.178 but doesn't send it anywhere else.
> 
> Thanks for clearing this up.
> 
> AK
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
If you want to find where an IP address is from go here:
http://www.ip-adress.com

The first address is from 'Korea, Republic of'

hopefully helpful

BD


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 13:39:13 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:39:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
References: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707081039t75012d9y818e3f6d618fe7c7@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/07, dean <mdlug at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:
> Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have
> converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?

http://www.tech-edv.co.at/lunix/CADlinks.html
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=165630&page=9 (note last post)
http://www.freelists.org/archives/cad-linux/

I'm a PCB Designer.  There are some PCB design apps, Kicad and gEDA
but I haven't tried to design anything in them yet.  The primary
player in the electronics CAD market is Altium (formerly Protel) and
it's unlikely that they will port to Linux because they can't even get
their Windows-based products stable.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 17:10:08 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:10:08 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] new system
In-Reply-To: <657424.39685.qm@web55509.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <657424.39685.qm@web55509.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707081410s6ae53a5aof4a647b317aafa5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/07, jack freeman <freemancomputer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I would like to use it for a media server that i can use
> for just internal use. Looking for a good distro to use for this as well.

Do you want to use it for encoding real-time video?  That would
greatly increase the CPU load.


From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  8 20:13:39 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] new system
Message-ID: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] new system

On 7/8/07, jack freeman <freemancomputer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I would like to use it for a media server that i can use
> for just internal use. Looking for a good distro to use for this as well.

Do you want to use it for encoding real-time video?  That would
greatly increase the CPU load.

Not right away but probly sometime
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug







       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070708/d59c7ebb/attachment.html>

From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 23:06:11 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 23:06:11 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dell Linux on YouTube
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707082006u7f21cd0r7c98d842465f5566@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a moderately-funny video posted by Dell chock-full of Linux
references.  While not screamingly funny, it IS amusing and has some
nuggets of information sprinkled throughout...
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6UWUTCeRaI>

-- Mikey


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 00:22:57 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 00:22:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dell Linux on YouTube
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707082006u7f21cd0r7c98d842465f5566@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707082006u7f21cd0r7c98d842465f5566@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707082122u27123apf8dd0ee636b01b95@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/07, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's a moderately-funny video posted by Dell chock-full of Linux
> references.  While not screamingly funny, it IS amusing and has some
> nuggets of information sprinkled throughout...
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6UWUTCeRaI>
>
> -- Mikey

It's like one of those jokes that makes you laugh because it's so bad.

-Joseph


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 08:45:18 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 08:45:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Benchmark Data Needed
In-Reply-To: <20070707061129.GB5850@squish.home.loc>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1D@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Paul

> 	Speed can be hard to pin down; are you talking about how fast
> OpenOffice loads when using Gnome as your window manager, vs. windows?

 Exactly, you've got to be specific about what you mean by 'speed'. I
can report that my Linux box "feels" much faster than the Vista box we
have.

 Here's a link comparing Vista and XP in the "User Efficiency" area;
not directly relevant to "Linux vs Windows" but illustrates that there
are a lot of different way to think about it:

 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/27/172203
 http://www.it-enquirer.com/main/ite/more/pfeiffer_vista/

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

 "There is no limit to the good you can do if you don't care
         who gets the credit." - George C. Marshall

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From otakurider at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 09:08:48 2007
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:08:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
In-Reply-To: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cd5131a50707090608r24255fe3q1d72cc495c5dc47b@mail.gmail.com>

Also wanted to add to this -  anyone use OpenOffice in the duel monitor
spanned mode?  Had a odd issue with it locking up X.   it works fine when I
disable monitor spanned mode.  no big deal just wondering if anyone ever
seen this.  note - I have the same problem with all the version of
Openoffice (using 2.2.1 now).

On 7/6/07, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Any one played with the Radeon 9200 and duel monitors with Fedora or
> Debian.  Looking to update my Fedora 5 with Matrox G450 duel monitors to
> something that can do 3D  want to try beryl or Compiz.  If anyone has any
> recommendations for video card (must have duel video monitor outputs) 2 or 3
> DVI is better but mix will work.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Pat
> VP
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070709/9f0ed584/attachment.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Jul  9 09:07:35 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:07:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
References: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <46923317.8030904@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
From: dean <mdlug at sbcglobal.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Sunday, July 08, 2007 8:50:24 AM
> Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:  
> Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have 
> converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?
>
> At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
> along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
> neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  
>
> Does it have to do with 3d graphics?   Hypermesh, Ansa, and Star CD all 
> use graphics, and they all exist for linux.   We use them on linux.    
> And abaqus, I think.   
>
> Is it politics and/or M$ money?     
>
> TIA, &, Scratching my head, Dean
>   
    This absolutely beats me.

    UG and Catia are/were both born upon UNIX, so it seems to me that it 
should be far from immeasurably difficult to port over to Linux.

    The French made CAD/CAM package we use is/was initially launched on 
UNIX as well, it still has some UNIX-y feel to certain aspects of it and 
may well still be available on UNIX in France, just not in the US...

    All I can say/suggest is keep requesting Linux ports and maybe one 
day that will happen.

    -Rob


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul  9 09:26:16 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 08:26:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323C8CE@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

http://www.tenlinks.com/NEWS/PR/ugs/040506_nx4linux.htm

NX4 appears to be supported on Linux. 

Honestly, I work for UGS/Siemens, the company that rights NX and I don't
remember seeing a linux CD set come through her.
SGI/Sun/HPUX/AIX/Windose (and I think they are even considering a port
to MacOS)... 

I have seen Linux64 updates on our FTP servers, but I haven't seen any
actual CD/DVDs.

Spooky...

--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of dean
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 8:50 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)

Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:  
Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have
converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?

At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but

neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  

Does it have to do with 3d graphics?   Hypermesh, Ansa, and Star CD all 
use graphics, and they all exist for linux.   We use them on linux.    
And abaqus, I think.   

Is it politics and/or M$ money?     

TIA, &, Scratching my head, Dean



_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 09:28:48 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:28:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <46923317.8030904@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Robert Adkins

> > At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
> > along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
> > neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  

> > Is it politics and/or M$ money?     

>     UG and Catia are/were both born upon UNIX, so it seems to me that it 
> should be far from immeasurably difficult to port over to Linux.

 Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.

 Just a theory. One reason I like gaming on Linux is that I don't have to
bother with cracks and such just to play legitimately-purchased games without
digging out the CD or whatever each time.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                            (313) 227-2317

 Novice electrician:
   Why should I waste time and money getting the right color wire?
   The electricity doesn't care.
 Experienced electrician:
   Electricity is color-blind.  Electricians are not.
                         -- unknown

 Novice programmer:
   Why should I waste time commenting code? The computer doesn't care.
 Experienced programmer:
   The computer is comment-blind.  Programmers are not.
                -- Dr. Robert J. Meier 1980

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Jul  9 09:42:24 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:42:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46923B40.3010402@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:28:48 AM
>> From: Robert Adkins
>>     
>
>   
>>> At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
>>> along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
>>> neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  
>>>       
>
>   
>>> Is it politics and/or M$ money?     
>>>       
>
>   
>>     UG and Catia are/were both born upon UNIX, so it seems to me that it 
>> should be far from immeasurably difficult to port over to Linux.
>>     
>
>  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
> such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
> a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
> might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.
>
>  Just a theory. One reason I like gaming on Linux is that I don't have to
> bother with cracks and such just to play legitimately-purchased games without
> digging out the CD or whatever each time.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                            (313) 227-2317
>   
    There's cracks available for every CAD/CAM package on the market. 
The question is, would one want to jeopardize their business profits 
running unlicensed software and getting caught?

    I would like to think that for the majority of businesses, the 
answer would be a resounding "No!".

    The question of whether or not the software protection mechanism 
will be cracked is absolutely moot. The problem is, while the 
programming team and support staff are likely very aware of that, the 
decision making part of CAD/CAM software provides has no understanding 
of this technical fact and thus it won't go away anytime soon. (Which 
probably explains their fear with Linux quite succinctly.)

    -Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 10:22:43 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:22:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <46923B40.3010402@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E20@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins
> From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>

> >  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
> > such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
> > a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
> > might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.

>     The question of whether or not the software protection mechanism 
> will be cracked is absolutely moot. The problem is, while the 
> programming team and support staff are likely very aware of that, the 
> decision making part of CAD/CAM software provides has no understanding 
> of this technical fact and thus it won't go away anytime soon. (Which 
> probably explains their fear with Linux quite succinctly.)

 Linux just points out how misguided software copy protection is. A lot
of people would rather not face that reality, however. See my .sig below.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317

 "Trying to make bits uncopyable is like trying to make water not wet.
  The sooner people accept this, and build business models that take
  this into account, the sooner people will start making money again."
                          - Bruce Schneier

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Jul  9 10:53:34 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:53:34 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E20@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E20@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46924BEE.4020804@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:22:43 AM
>> From: Robert Adkins
>> From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
>>     
>
>   
>>>  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
>>> such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
>>> a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
>>> might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.
>>>       
>
>   
>>     The question of whether or not the software protection mechanism 
>> will be cracked is absolutely moot. The problem is, while the 
>> programming team and support staff are likely very aware of that, the 
>> decision making part of CAD/CAM software provides has no understanding 
>> of this technical fact and thus it won't go away anytime soon. (Which 
>> probably explains their fear with Linux quite succinctly.)
>>     
>
>  Linux just points out how misguided software copy protection is. A lot
> of people would rather not face that reality, however. See my .sig below.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Trying to make bits uncopyable is like trying to make water not wet.
>   The sooner people accept this, and build business models that take
>   this into account, the sooner people will start making money again."
>                           - Bruce Schneier
>   
    BTW, here's that "Award Winning" Business model:

    1. Create an Incremental Enhancement to the Software Package that by 
itself isn't worth jack.
    2. Rearrange EVERY interface and location of menus/options, so when 
someone buys the new package they can see that it is all "new!", then we 
can claim the changes were made due to "Focus Group" response. (We just 
won't tell anyone that those "Focus Groups" were our own people and 
their "Focus" was to make us more money!)
    3. Offer expensive support package, which includes No Training or 
25% off Training. (Training either requires a week of the user going out 
of state or a week of having an overpriced trainer in house.)
    4. PROFIT!

    There's a package of software we are forced into using due to 
hardware/software marriage that includes such a methodology of updates.

    -Rob


From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Mon Jul  9 11:09:25 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:09:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] User home directory quota
Message-ID: <1183993765.12808.27.camel@daddymobile>

I have been ready about quotas and how to implement them but I can not
find anything that talks about having more than 1 set of quotas.  I need
to be able to set diffrent sized quotas on diffrent directories
e.g. /home/student/user = ??MB /home/staff/user = ??MB the quota on
student being one size and the quota on staff being another size.  If
any knows were I canf find info on this please send a link.



From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Mon Jul  9 11:22:51 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:22:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
Message-ID: <7348297.1183994572176.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>



-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
>Sent: Jul 9, 2007 9:07 AM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
>
>-------- Original Message  --------
>Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
>From: dean <mdlug at sbcglobal.net>
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Date: Sunday, July 08, 2007 8:50:24 AM
>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:  
>> Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have 
>> converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?
>>
>> At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
>> along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
>> neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  
>>
>> Does it have to do with 3d graphics?   Hypermesh, Ansa, and Star CD all 
>> use graphics, and they all exist for linux.   We use them on linux.    
>> And abaqus, I think.   
>>
>> Is it politics and/or M$ money?     
>>
>> TIA, &, Scratching my head, Dean
>>   
>    This absolutely beats me.
>
>    UG and Catia are/were both born upon UNIX, so it seems to me that it 
>should be far from immeasurably difficult to port over to Linux.

IIRC from a CATIA class I took a couple of years back, CATIA on Windoze has more customizable features (through VB) as compared to UNIX versions.

BTW, I now work for a company owned by Dassault Systemes (the parent company of CATIA) I have been here only for the past 4 months) and I do not know why CATIA favors Windoze over UNIX/LINUX.

>
>    The French made CAD/CAM package we use is/was initially launched on 
>UNIX as well, it still has some UNIX-y feel to certain aspects of it and 
>may well still be available on UNIX in France, just not in the US...
>
>    All I can say/suggest is keep requesting Linux ports and maybe one 
>day that will happen.
>
>    -Rob
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From danno at umich.edu  Mon Jul  9 11:59:42 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:59:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] User home directory quota
In-Reply-To: <1183993765.12808.27.camel@daddymobile>
References: <1183993765.12808.27.camel@daddymobile>
Message-ID: <20070709155942.GA15192@maniac.deathstar.org>

standard *nix quotas are per-user, per-filesystem.

so just set one MB quota for each user who is staff, and another
MB quota for each user who is a student.  or a different quota
per user, or whatever.

man edquota

caveat, should work for ext & xfs, not sure about other linux filesystems
although i'd be surprised if they didnt' support the standard quota 
feature.

On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 11:09:25AM -0400, Mathew Enders wrote:
> I have been ready about quotas and how to implement them but I can not
> find anything that talks about having more than 1 set of quotas.  I need
> to be able to set diffrent sized quotas on diffrent directories
> e.g. /home/student/user = ??MB /home/staff/user = ??MB the quota on
> student being one size and the quota on staff being another size.  If
> any knows were I canf find info on this please send a link.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul  9 12:33:28 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:33:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <46924BEE.4020804@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323CA75@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

Yep.

Sounds like a typical corporate software model. 


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Robert Adkins
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:54 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:22:43 AM
>> From: Robert Adkins
>> From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
>>     
>
>   
>>>  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' 
>>> measures and such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! 
>>> Enforcing such measures it a lot harder when the end user can muck 
>>> with the actual operating system. It might be paranoia on the part
of the CAD companies.
>>>       
>
>   
>>     The question of whether or not the software protection mechanism 
>> will be cracked is absolutely moot. The problem is, while the 
>> programming team and support staff are likely very aware of that, the

>> decision making part of CAD/CAM software provides has no 
>> understanding of this technical fact and thus it won't go away 
>> anytime soon. (Which probably explains their fear with Linux quite 
>> succinctly.)
>>     
>
>  Linux just points out how misguided software copy protection is. A 
> lot of people would rather not face that reality, however. See my .sig
below.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Trying to make bits uncopyable is like trying to make water not wet.
>   The sooner people accept this, and build business models that take
>   this into account, the sooner people will start making money again."
>                           - Bruce Schneier
>   
    BTW, here's that "Award Winning" Business model:

    1. Create an Incremental Enhancement to the Software Package that by
itself isn't worth jack.
    2. Rearrange EVERY interface and location of menus/options, so when
someone buys the new package they can see that it is all "new!", then we
can claim the changes were made due to "Focus Group" response. (We just
won't tell anyone that those "Focus Groups" were our own people and
their "Focus" was to make us more money!)
    3. Offer expensive support package, which includes No Training or
25% off Training. (Training either requires a week of the user going out
of state or a week of having an overpriced trainer in house.)
    4. PROFIT!

    There's a package of software we are forced into using due to
hardware/software marriage that includes such a methodology of updates.

    -Rob
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 13:03:24 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 13:03:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <46923317.8030904@impelind.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707091003u9189802uc95f646e5d78f5b6@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/9/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
> such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
> a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
> might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.

FLEXlm (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLEXlm) is commonly used with
CAE/CAD/CAM tools.  It supports most OSes
(www.macrovision.com/support/by_category/FLEXlm_specs.shtml).  There
are plenty of cracks for it also.


From wolfger at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 14:52:36 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:52:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <46923317.8030904@impelind.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707091152p8926030i15352a82b150e239@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/9/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>
>  One reason I like gaming on Linux is that I don't have to
> bother with cracks and such just to play legitimately-purchased games without
> digging out the CD or whatever each time.

That statement doesn't make any sense. I like gaming on Linux, and yet
I still have to jump through the same hoops (if not more) as my
Windows-using counterparts to play the same games they do. I think
what you mean is that you like open source games. "Gaming on Linux" is
not necessarily open source. In fact, very few of the games that I
enjoy are. That's a shame, but it's the way it is.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 15:02:09 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:02:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707091152p8926030i15352a82b150e239@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E22@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Wolfger

> That statement doesn't make any sense. I like gaming on Linux, and yet
> I still have to jump through the same hoops (if not more) as my
> Windows-using counterparts to play the same games they do.

 Well, I don't play all of the same games they do. I play a lot of them
(Quake [I II III], Unreal Tournament, Aliens vs Predator, Descent 3, RTCW,
etc.) but they have native Linux ports. I have Introversion's Uplink and Darwinia,
and today's my birthday. I'm hoping I'll get DEFCON tonight. I'm also pondering
Cold War, if I get enough 'fun money'. None of the above games require any kind of
crack or anything to play under Linux...

 The only game that I play on Linux that required any kind of 'crack' was
"American McGee's Alice". Plays great under Wine, flawlessly as far as I
can tell.

> I think what you mean is that you like open source games.

 I also enjoy quality time with BZFlag and suchlike, of course.

> "Gaming on Linux" is not necessarily open source.

 Yup, you're right. But when closed-source games have Linux native ports, I haven't
run into a one that required any kind of 'CD Validation' or anything like that.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul  9 15:05:19 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:05:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E22@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323CBE0@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."

... I really like that one! Where do you get these? Is it a Sig program
or are they quotes you made up?


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Ingles, Raymond
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:02 PM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)


> From: Wolfger

> That statement doesn't make any sense. I like gaming on Linux, and yet

> I still have to jump through the same hoops (if not more) as my 
> Windows-using counterparts to play the same games they do.

 Well, I don't play all of the same games they do. I play a lot of them
(Quake [I II III], Unreal Tournament, Aliens vs Predator, Descent 3,
RTCW,
etc.) but they have native Linux ports. I have Introversion's Uplink and
Darwinia, and today's my birthday. I'm hoping I'll get DEFCON tonight.
I'm also pondering Cold War, if I get enough 'fun money'. None of the
above games require any kind of crack or anything to play under Linux...

 The only game that I play on Linux that required any kind of 'crack'
was "American McGee's Alice". Plays great under Wine, flawlessly as far
as I can tell.

> I think what you mean is that you like open source games.

 I also enjoy quality time with BZFlag and suchlike, of course.

> "Gaming on Linux" is not necessarily open source.

 Yup, you're right. But when closed-source games have Linux native
ports, I haven't run into a one that required any kind of 'CD
Validation' or anything like that.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only.
It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the
named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it,
or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify
us immediately and then destroy it. 
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 15:42:22 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:42:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E22@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <3b00b3330707091152p8926030i15352a82b150e239@mail.gmail.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E22@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707091242t5c80a251ue7fbc67a0c651590@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/9/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  The only game that I play on Linux that required any kind of 'crack' was
> "American McGee's Alice". Plays great under Wine, flawlessly as far as I
> can tell.

The reason cracks are needed for some games under Wine is that the
developers can't see the protection system code without signing an NDA
which would prevent them from releasing code written to support it.
However, there has been progress in emulating the Windows systems the
protection mechanisms rely on in order to get them to stop false
triggering.  Macrovision Safedisc is the most common one.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 15:40:33 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:40:33 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE:  CAD vs CAE (for linux))
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323CBE0@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Morris, Tim
>  "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
> than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
> 
> ... I really like that one! Where do you get these? Is it a 
> Sig program or are they quotes you made up?

 That one, as it said in the message, was from Eric Scott Raymond. I
like collecting pithy, funny, or profound quotes. I currently have...
let's see... 437 of them. I have a little script that randomly picks
one for each message. Actually, it's interesting in a Unix sense how I
do it.

 Most Unix email and news programs will read a 'signature' from a file
called ".signature" in your home directory, if it exists. I don't have
a file there, I have a "fifo". On Unix, you can have a 'named pipe', or
'fifo' (First In First Out) that programs can read from and write to.

 When a program reads my ".signature", they don't get the contents of
a file, they get whatever a program at the other end of the fifo feeds
to them. I have a script called "fifosig.sh" that does the selecting,
picking a random signature and squirting it through the fifo to whatever
program reads from the other end.

--------fifosig.sh--------
#!/bin/bash
while true
do
 # The low-order bits of a PRNG are often not terribly random,
 # but this is good enough.
 SIGGY=$((RANDOM % `ls -1 ~/News/sigs/msig* | wc -l`))
 cat ~/News/sigs/msig$SIGGY > ~/.signature 2> /dev/null
 sleep 1 # Some applications need this 'rest'...
done
--------------------------

 So, I get randomly-selected quotes by default. Sometimes, when I have
a particularly apt quote I remember from my collection, I overwrite it
by hand, but usually I let chance rule.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 "Yes, but other than being useful, usable, reliable, extensible,
   free, and unencumbered, what does Linux have going for it?"
                       - Hamilcar Barca

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 15:47:22 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:47:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707091242t5c80a251ue7fbc67a0c651590@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E26@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Jeff Hanson

> The reason cracks are needed for some games under Wine is that the
> developers can't see the protection system code without signing an NDA
> which would prevent them from releasing code written to support it.

 I always find a no-CD crack for the games I play on Windows. And I don't
pirate games.

 I have four young boys now. The youngest is barely a month old, but the
rest are ambulatory and form an active threat to precious install media.
I can't afford to be digging out a CD every time I want to play a game.
For one thing, that's too dang slow and my game time is short enough as
it is. But if I ever forget to put the CD away after I'm done...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                     (313) 227-2317

    "Mind control doesn't work on people who think." - Eris

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul  9 15:52:28 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:52:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE:  CAD vs CAE (for linux))
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323CC59@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

Interesting...

How much do you want for your stash of quotes :) 


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Ingles, Raymond
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:41 PM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE: CAD vs CAE (for linux))


> From: Morris, Tim
>  "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more 
> than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
> 
> ... I really like that one! Where do you get these? Is it a Sig 
> program or are they quotes you made up?

 That one, as it said in the message, was from Eric Scott Raymond. I
like collecting pithy, funny, or profound quotes. I currently have...
let's see... 437 of them. I have a little script that randomly picks one
for each message. Actually, it's interesting in a Unix sense how I do
it.

 Most Unix email and news programs will read a 'signature' from a file
called ".signature" in your home directory, if it exists. I don't have a
file there, I have a "fifo". On Unix, you can have a 'named pipe', or
'fifo' (First In First Out) that programs can read from and write to.

 When a program reads my ".signature", they don't get the contents of a
file, they get whatever a program at the other end of the fifo feeds to
them. I have a script called "fifosig.sh" that does the selecting,
picking a random signature and squirting it through the fifo to whatever
program reads from the other end.

--------fifosig.sh--------
#!/bin/bash
while true
do
 # The low-order bits of a PRNG are often not terribly random,  # but
this is good enough.
 SIGGY=$((RANDOM % `ls -1 ~/News/sigs/msig* | wc -l`))  cat
~/News/sigs/msig$SIGGY > ~/.signature 2> /dev/null  sleep 1 # Some
applications need this 'rest'...
done
--------------------------

 So, I get randomly-selected quotes by default. Sometimes, when I have a
particularly apt quote I remember from my collection, I overwrite it by
hand, but usually I let chance rule.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 "Yes, but other than being useful, usable, reliable, extensible,
   free, and unencumbered, what does Linux have going for it?"
                       - Hamilcar Barca

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only.
It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the
named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it,
or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify
us immediately and then destroy it. 
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Jul  9 05:44:40 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Mon,  9 Jul 2007 05:44:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707081039t75012d9y818e3f6d618fe7c7@mail.gmail.com>
	(jhansonxi@gmail.com)
References: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
	<b02c40e90707081039t75012d9y818e3f6d618fe7c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070709094440.EB69521E38E@starfox.local>

Jeff,

>> Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have
>> converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?

Chrsyler Group uses Catia on aix systems.

> I'm a PCB Designer.  There are some PCB design apps, Kicad and gEDA
> but I haven't tried to design anything in them yet.

Last year, I developed an in-house PCB CAD facility with perl/C++/java
wrappers around gEDA.  Though yet too simple for publication,
it served my needs, which were primarily for circuit validation
(tolerance to component variations) and pcb validation (does the mask
match the circuit).

Reporting,
--
Bob


From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  9 19:47:32 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:47:32 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] new system
In-Reply-To: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

$0.02:

CPU: look at AMD5600+ X2 (dual core).  Used to cost around $450, now can 
be found for $170.  Great buy, and outperforms intel at the same 
pricepoint by 15-20%.

MOBO: X2 compatible, of course.  Can't recall mine right now, but it was 
a great deal, and included built-in sound, nvidia graphics (I think it 
was FX 5200), etc.  nForce 4(?) chipset.  All for like $90.

RAM: Consider 2MB, 2 stick, dual channel, ddr (800Mhz?).  This should 
run around $200 - 250.

Disks: If you can swing it, get 3: one for the system, the other two for 
data in a RAID 1 or 0+1 configuration.  If you want speed, get a raptor 
for your system disk.  Around $200 for 100G disks.

Video: NVIDIA 7800GTX 512MB if you want to go high-end for $200 or so.
You can get a dual DVI NVIDIA 7600 GS 512MB from PNY for around 120 from 
NewEgg.  And that's probably still more than you need.

Distro: I like Kubuntu.  Today, just installed Google Earth with a mouse 
click.  Gotta love it.  YMMV.

Others: Get a good powersupply; consider a low-noise case for multimedia 
(my case cost more than my mobo, but it is fantastically quiet).


On Sunday 08 July 2007, jack freeman wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:10:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] new system
>
> On 7/8/07, jack freeman <freemancomputer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I would like to use it for a media server that i can use
> > for just internal use. Looking for a good distro to use for this as
> > well.
>
> Do you want to use it for encoding real-time video?  That would
> greatly increase the CPU load.
>
> Not right away but probly sometime
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>_______________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email
> wherever you're surfing.
> http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php



-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  9 22:24:39 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:24:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] new system
In-Reply-To: <200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
References: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070709222439.128a000c@tessa.long>

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:47:32 -0700
"Michael S. Mikowski" <z_mikowski at yahoo.com> wrote:

/snip

> Disks: If you can swing it, get 3: one for the system, the other two
> for data in a RAID 1 or 0+1 configuration.  If you want speed, get a
> raptor for your system disk.  Around $200 for 100G disks.

/snip

RAID 0+1 requires 4 disks minimum, and if you want a separate one for
the system that is five.  I prefer to use NFS over RAID 1 or RAID 5
myself, and don't see any reason the system requires a separate disk.
This can work with 2 disks nicely (RAID 1), or with 3-or-more if you
require lots of storage (RAID 5).

Regards,
Matthew



From danno at umich.edu  Tue Jul 10 01:46:21 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 01:46:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] new system
In-Reply-To: <200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
References: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070710054621.GA50448@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 04:47:32PM -0700, Michael S. Mikowski wrote:
> $0.02:
> 
> CPU: look at AMD5600+ X2 (dual core).  Used to cost around $450, now can 
> be found for $170.  Great buy, and outperforms intel at the same 
> pricepoint by 15-20%.

wait for the AMD CPU price cuts to make it to the retail channel:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070709-amd-cuts-prices-may-move-some-production-to-tsmc.html

> MOBO: X2 compatible, of course.  Can't recall mine right now, but it was 
> a great deal, and included built-in sound, nvidia graphics (I think it 
> was FX 5200), etc.  nForce 4(?) chipset.  All for like $90.

The Asus M2A-VM HDMI is about $75 and has everything most people
might want except a lot of slots.  Abit makes a similar board.

> RAM: Consider 2MB, 2 stick, dual channel, ddr (800Mhz?).  This should 
> run around $200 - 250.

If you're trying to make your money stretch, lower-speed ram is significantly
cheaper.

> Disks: If you can swing it, get 3: one for the system, the other two for 
> data in a RAID 1 or 0+1 configuration.  If you want speed, get a raptor 
> for your system disk.  Around $200 for 100G disks.

minor nit:  any integrated raid would do the right thing for you,
but if you were manually setting things up with software raid or
layering hardware and software, or something, you'd want to make
sure to do 1+0, rather than 0+1; the survivability is much better
if you start with raid1's and then raid0 across them.  Although as
i think about it, with only 4 disks, the survivability is probably
the same either way.

> Others: Get a good powersupply; consider a low-noise case for multimedia 
> (my case cost more than my mobo, but it is fantastically quiet).

don't cheap out on the power supply, ESPECIALLY if you leave the
thing on all the time.  the electricity cost difference between a
60% efficient and an 80% efficient PSU really adds up fast.

 www.80plus.org

i also recommend pc power & cooling although i don't think they
have any 80% efficient PSU's yet; they have plenty in the 75% range
and their stuff is rock solid.

danno


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Jul  9 23:51:58 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Mon,  9 Jul 2007 23:51:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	(Raymond.Ingles@compuware.com)
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20070710035158.B595D20AAE8@starfox.local>

Ray, Tim,

> Most Unix email and news programs will read a 'signature' from a file
> called ".signature" in your home directory, if it exists.

A few years ago, I used a script that displayed ~5 messages from my fortune
file (1089 entries), and let me select one or get another 5 random signatures.
I failed to copy the script during one of my system upgrades, so now I've
added the fifo.

Seeking more interesting signatures,
-- 
Dr. B

"E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be
 used only to be used for company business."
      -- unknown


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 10 11:37:50 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:37:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs
In-Reply-To: <20070710035158.B595D20AAE8@starfox.local>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<20070710035158.B595D20AAE8@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <4693A7CE.4070906@comcast.net>

Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> Seeking more interesting signatures,
>   
> E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be
>  used only to be used for company business."
>       -- unknown

That is about as Dilbert as they come.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 10 11:39:44 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:39:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE:  CAD vs CAE (for linux))
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Morris, Tim
>>  "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
>> than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
>>
>> ... I really like that one! Where do you get these? Is it a 
>> Sig program or are they quotes you made up?
>>     
>
>  That one, as it said in the message, was from Eric Scott Raymond. I
> like collecting pithy, funny, or profound quotes. I currently have...
> let's see... 437 of them. I have a little script that randomly picks
> one for each message. Actually, it's interesting in a Unix sense how I
> do it.
>
>  Most Unix email and news programs will read a 'signature' from a file
> called ".signature" in your home directory, if it exists. I don't have
> a file there, I have a "fifo". On Unix, you can have a 'named pipe', or
> 'fifo' (First In First Out) that programs can read from and write to.
>
>  When a program reads my ".signature", they don't get the contents of
> a file, they get whatever a program at the other end of the fifo feeds
> to them. I have a script called "fifosig.sh" that does the selecting,
> picking a random signature and squirting it through the fifo to whatever
> program reads from the other end.
>   

Can you run this puppy in Thunderbird?

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Jul 10 11:59:10 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:59:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE:  CAD vs CAE (for linux))
In-Reply-To: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E2A@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Garry Stahl

> >  When a program reads my ".signature", they don't get the contents of
> > a file, they get whatever a program at the other end of the fifo feeds
> > to them.

> Can you run this puppy in Thunderbird?

 I don't see why not. Just tell Thunderbird that the signature file it should
read from is the fifo. (You use the program "mkfifo" to actually create a
fifo, BTW.)

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317

   "Microsoft's view: If the software has security flaws,
       then the code and APIs cannot be made public. 
 
   Open source view: If the code and APIs are made public,
 then the software does not have security flaws." - whovian

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 10 15:12:21 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 
   
  Is OpenSuse just a name change ?
   
  Are there ant issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?
   
  David 
   

       
---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
 Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070710/37808b8a/attachment.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 10 15:27:47 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:27:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Recently there was a sale at an Eletronics store that When I bought a Certian CPU I got a free mother board, that was the begining of mt problems.
   
  I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem.  The biggest confusing thing is the Windows would load and run. But another system running windows is not very intresting.  This build was to be a suse Linux box.  I spent hours trouble shooting why Suse Did not load.  The FIX was to get a new mother board.  The Motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.  
   
  I replaced it with an MSI board from Micro Center. Needless to say we are up and running.  The Install was able to "see" the SATA drive.  Simetimes even Windows install does not know how to talk to SATA drives.  
   
  Once the mothe board was replaced the install was okay.  Just watch out for off brand motherboards.
   
  David 
   

  
---------------------------------
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
 Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070710/5a557d24/attachment.html>

From peter at petertheplumber.net  Tue Jul 10 16:28:40 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:28:40 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1184099320.3598.3.camel@plumber.site>

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 12:12 -0700, David Lane wrote:
>  
>  
> Is OpenSuse just a name change ?
>  
> Are there ant issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?
>  

David,
	They did reorganize the way their products are named. Opensuse is the
free as in beer version and I think "SLED" is now the boxed version with
support. There's another recent thread that deals with opensuse issues,
as it were.

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 19:21:50 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:21:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
	<923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707101621u6e14cff2wdfc19177d3cd108a@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/07, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Once the mothe board was replaced the install was okay.  Just watch out for
> off brand motherboards.

I encounter similar issues with old hardware.  The first thing I do is
upgrade the BIOS.  Then I start working through the problems, one step
at a time.  With graphics issues I try the vga=normal boot parameter,
then changing to a different video chip (a card instead of integrated,
etc.), manually setting xorg.conf, changing BIOS settings, checking
the logs in /var/log, a different distro, and search the Internet too
of course.  Similar steps for other hardware.  Sometimes it turns out
to be something stupid like a loose card or cable.  Sometimes its
hardware without stable drivers or some setting buried in a doc
somewhere.  Last weekend I blew several hours trying to get an old
Nvidia TNT2 M64 card on a SiS 741 MB to not crash the system when X
started.  It turned out I needed NvAgp "1" in xorg.conf to use the
Nvidia AGP driver instead of the kernel's default.  It eats up lots of
time but it was educational.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 20:57:25 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:57:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
	<923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707101757j730d52h4d7b7cbff68d29@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/07, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I bought a
> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning of my problems.
>
> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would
> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem. The
> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out two things:

1. ECS is not an "off" brand.  The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
largest motherboard maker.   They also make the PCChips brand, among
others.  Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
unknown.
2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo, believe me.
Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?

-- Mikey


From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Jul 11 00:56:32 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:56:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] President's mail bag
In-Reply-To: <001401c7c23c$cafd1b40$7544030a@MRGRANDRPD2507.local>
References: <001401c7c23c$cafd1b40$7544030a@MRGRANDRPD2507.local>
Message-ID: <46946300.80106@ameritech.net>

Derek,
I am passing this one message of yours on to our membership. Posting is
restricted to subscribed members. You are free to subscribe to our
mailing list if you wish. One such post every three months would
probably be tolerated, though you could get complaints. Please post in
plain text, no attachments, an, of course, we reserve the right to
change our policy at any time in the future.

Regards
Raymond McLaughlin President MDLUG

Derek Sonksen wrote:
> 
> Raymond,
>  
> I am an IT recruiter in Grand Rapids, working with a client in the 231
> area code.  Is there a policy regarding a process by which I could
> present opportunities to the user group members, and if so, what is that
> process?  I would likely have something only once every 3 months or so -
> I am not looking to start bogging down the mailing list.  Any advice
> would be appreciated...
>  
> Current Opportunity:  Client looking for Perl programmer, someone who
> has dabbled in Ruby/ROR.  I can be contacted for more details...
>  
> 
> *Derek Sonksen*
> 
> Account Executive
> 
> *MANAGEMENT RECRUITERS** *
> 
> OF GRAND RAPIDS
> 
> 1 Ionia SE, Suite 300
> 
> Grand Rapids , MI   49503
> 
> (P) 616.336.8484  Ext 218
> 
> (F) 616.988.0872
> 
> dsonksen at mrigr.com
> 
> www.mrigr.com
> 
>  
> 
> *MRINetwork (TM)** *
> 
> BUILDING THE HEART OF BUSINESS (TM)
> 


From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Jul 11 00:59:38 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:59:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] President's mail bag
Message-ID: <469463BA.5090506@ameritech.net>

I have a small startup website design and development company in the
Ann Arbor area and I'm looking for Linux programers.
They need to know Linux, HTML, PHP, MySQL, if they know apache or
Joomla that's even better.
I'm also looking for people who know Flash, it's more likely that
graphic artists will know this.
Ideally they should live within 30 miles of Ann Arbor because it
really helps if they can meet personally with clients to clarify issues.

I'm hiring independent contractors on a project by project bases.
I have no portfolio of previous clients work to show prospects, so
that means I have to compete on quality, service and price.
In the beginning I can only afford to pay $15 per hour on new
websites. However when I get projects to do maintenance
on currently existing websites I don't have to compete on price so
I'm paying $20 per hour for those jobs.

Please feel free to share this email with whoever you feel would be
appropriate.

Thanks,

Bill Diesenroth
Ann Arbor Web Design LLC

diesenroth at sbcglobal.com

734.483.2216





From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 08:29:52 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:29:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707101757j730d52h4d7b7cbff68d29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070711122952.60367.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks like it will be a while until I build another system.  
   
   
  
Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
  On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I bought a
> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning of my problems.
>
> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would
> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem. The
> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out two things:

1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
unknown.
2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo, believe me.
Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/dad4598c/attachment.html>

From tmorris at ugs.com  Wed Jul 11 08:41:15 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:41:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <20070711122952.60367.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E2032C8B01@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have options to
set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to emulate an old IDE
controller. Either of those options (if the board had them) might have
worked in your case. Obviously, setting them to emulate an IDE
controller isn't such a great idea, but from what I can tell the only
thing you lose by setting them to AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it
even has it). I could be wrong...
 
For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one still
works (although the USB died) and the other died completely after 3
months. But hey, they were cheap.
 
--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
 

________________________________

From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of David Lane
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga


I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks like it
will be a while until I build another system.  
 
 

Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:

	On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
	> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I
bought a
	> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning
of my problems.
	>
	> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th
build would
	> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the
problem. The
	> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
	
	I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
two things:
	
	1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the
world's
	largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand,
among
	others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
	unknown.
	2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards,
by
	their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't
run
	Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a
BIOS
	reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
believe me.
	Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
	
	-- Mikey
	_______________________________________________
	mdlug mailing list
	mdlug at mdlug.org
	http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
	


________________________________

Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket:
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48253/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNX
IC>  mail, news, photos & more. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/4e5bec6c/attachment.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 08:51:46 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:51:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E2032C8B01@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <52004.37423.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Mine Was free.  With the puchase intel Duo 6600.  The rest of the compunuts were very good.  The system was VERY responsive With the Intel Duo 6600 on the MSI Motherboard, 200gb SATA. I'm happy with the arduous result.  It just took alot to get there.
   
   
  
"Morris, Tim" <tmorris at ugs.com> wrote:
      Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be wrong...
   
  For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
   
  --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
   

    
---------------------------------
  From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of David Lane
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga


  
  I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks like it will be a while until I build another system.  
   
   
  
Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
  On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I bought a
> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning of my problems.
>
> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would
> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem. The
> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out two things:

1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
unknown.
2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo, believe me.
Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

    
---------------------------------
  Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. _______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/4146b19c/attachment.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 08:54:10 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:54:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E2032C8B01@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <133226.38192.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board that has the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)

"Morris, Tim" <tmorris at ugs.com> wrote:      Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be wrong...
   
  For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
   
  --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
   

    
---------------------------------
  From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of David Lane
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga


  
  I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks like it will be a while until I build another system.  
   
   
  
Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
  On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I bought a
> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning of my problems.
>
> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would
> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem. The
> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out two things:

1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
unknown.
2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo, believe me.
Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

    
---------------------------------
  Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. _______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/fd5b176d/attachment.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 11 09:36:27 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:36:27 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <133226.38192.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <133226.38192.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4694DCDB.8030806@impelind.com>

Personally, I prefer ASUS and maybe MSI products.

My current "main rig" originally had an MSI board. They did a piss-poor 
job of designing the cooling system on the mainboard. I was suffering 
from a series of heat related shutdowns. In the end, it turned out that 
the entire problem was related to the Northbridge chip overheating 
something fierce.

Right now, I have the extra guts to rebuild a second PC. I just need to 
fabricate or replace the entire mainboard chip cooling system to have it 
run properly...

The ASUS Board I replaced it with has been operating awesomely.

-Rob


-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:54:10 AM
> Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board that has 
> the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)
>
> */"Morris, Tim" <tmorris at ugs.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have
>     options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to
>     emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the
>     board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting
>     them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but
>     from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to
>     AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be
>     wrong...
>      
>     For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one
>     still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely
>     after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
>      
>     --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
>      
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]
>     *On Behalf Of *David Lane
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
>     *To:* MDLUG's Main discussion list
>     *Subject:* Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga
>
>     I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks
>     like it will be a while until I build another system. 
>      
>      
>
>     */Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>
>         On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
>         > Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when
>         I bought a
>         > certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the
>         beginning of my problems.
>         >
>         > I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my
>         4th build would
>         > be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was
>         the problem. The
>         > motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
>
>         I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
>         two things:
>
>         1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
>         largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
>         others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
>         unknown.
>         2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
>         their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
>         Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
>         reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
>         believe me.
>         Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
>
>         -- Mikey
>         _______________________________________________
>         mdlug mailing list
>         mdlug at mdlug.org
>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your
>     pocket:
>     <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48253/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC>
>     mail, news, photos & more.
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48256/*http://travel.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFhN2hucjlpBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwM1BHNlYwNncm91cHMEc2xrA2VtYWlsLW5jbQ-->on 
> Yahoo! Travel.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 09:43:25 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 06:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <4694DCDB.8030806@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <959727.19072.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Are you using the Stock Intel (if it is intel) cooling fan. Because in this build I baught a diffetent cpu fan.  And will replace all the other stock Intel fans because they dont always snap all the way then later it wiggles loose and you are suffering heat shutdowns.
   
  David 

Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  Personally, I prefer ASUS and maybe MSI products.

My current "main rig" originally had an MSI board. They did a piss-poor 
job of designing the cooling system on the mainboard. I was suffering 
from a series of heat related shutdowns. In the end, it turned out that 
the entire problem was related to the Northbridge chip overheating 
something fierce.

Right now, I have the extra guts to rebuild a second PC. I just need to 
fabricate or replace the entire mainboard chip cooling system to have it 
run properly...

The ASUS Board I replaced it with has been operating awesomely.

-Rob


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
From: David Lane 
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list 
Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:54:10 AM
> Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board that has 
> the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)
>
> */"Morris, Tim" /* wrote:
>
> Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have
> options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to
> emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the
> board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting
> them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but
> from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to
> AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be
> wrong...
> 
> For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one
> still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely
> after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
> 
> -- Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
> 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]
> *On Behalf Of *David Lane
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
> *To:* MDLUG's Main discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga
>
> I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran. It looks
> like it will be a while until I build another system. 
> 
> 
>
> */Michael Rudas /* wrote:
>
> On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> > Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when
> I bought a
> > certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the
> beginning of my problems.
> >
> > I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my
> 4th build would
> > be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was
> the problem. The
> > motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
>
> I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
> two things:
>
> 1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
> largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
> others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
> unknown.
> 2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
> their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
> Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
> reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
> believe me.
> Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
>
> -- Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your
> pocket:
> 
> mail, news, photos & more.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places 
> on 
> Yahoo! Travel.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/ca11a212/attachment.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 11 09:54:06 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:54:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <959727.19072.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <959727.19072.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4694E0FE.6010404@impelind.com>

My issue had nothing to do with the CPU Fan. The CPU Fan that came with 
the system was perfect.

It was the Northbridge Chip fan/heatsink that wasn't up to the task of 
properly keeping the motherboard chips cool enough to operate. The 
Northbridge can be read about here: 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northbridge_%28computing%29>

I'm also running AMD CPUs, not that it is relevant to the discussion.

-Rob


-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:43:25 AM
> Are you using the Stock Intel (if it is intel) cooling fan. Because in 
> this build I baught a diffetent cpu fan.  And will replace all the 
> other stock Intel fans because they dont always snap all the way then 
> later it wiggles loose and you are suffering heat shutdowns.
>  
> David
>
> */Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Personally, I prefer ASUS and maybe MSI products.
>
>     My current "main rig" originally had an MSI board. They did a
>     piss-poor
>     job of designing the cooling system on the mainboard. I was suffering
>     from a series of heat related shutdowns. In the end, it turned out
>     that
>     the entire problem was related to the Northbridge chip overheating
>     something fierce.
>
>     Right now, I have the extra guts to rebuild a second PC. I just
>     need to
>     fabricate or replace the entire mainboard chip cooling system to
>     have it
>     run properly...
>
>     The ASUS Board I replaced it with has been operating awesomely.
>
>     -Rob
>
>
>     -------- Original Message --------
>     Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
>     From: David Lane
>     To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
>     Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:54:10 AM
>     > Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board
>     that has
>     > the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)
>     >
>     > */"Morris, Tim" /* wrote:
>     >
>     > Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have
>     > options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to
>     > emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the
>     > board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting
>     > them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but
>     > from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to
>     > AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be
>     > wrong...
>     >
>     > For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one
>     > still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely
>     > after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
>     >
>     > -- Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > *From:* mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]
>     > *On Behalf Of *David Lane
>     > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
>     > *To:* MDLUG's Main discussion list
>     > *Subject:* Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga
>     >
>     > I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran. It looks
>     > like it will be a while until I build another system.
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > */Michael Rudas /* wrote:
>     >
>     > On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
>     > > Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when
>     > I bought a
>     > > certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the
>     > beginning of my problems.
>     > >
>     > > I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my
>     > 4th build would
>     > > be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was
>     > the problem. The
>     > > motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
>     >
>     > I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
>     > two things:
>     >
>     > 1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
>     > largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
>     > others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
>     > unknown.
>     > 2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
>     > their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
>     > Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
>     > reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
>     > believe me.
>     > Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
>     >
>     > -- Mikey
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > mdlug mailing list
>     > mdlug at mdlug.org
>     > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your
>     > pocket:
>     >
>     > mail, news, photos & more.
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > mdlug mailing list
>     > mdlug at mdlug.org
>     > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places
>     > on
>     > Yahoo! Travel.
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > mdlug mailing list
>     > mdlug at mdlug.org
>     > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48256/*http://travel.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFhN2hucjlpBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwM1BHNlYwNncm91cHMEc2xrA2VtYWlsLW5jbQ-->on 
> Yahoo! Travel.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 10:00:50 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:00:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <4694E0FE.6010404@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <545279.61319.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

For Heat it might be.  I have not seen any data on Heat disapation between AMD and Intel.
   
  I do know that the Motorola Power PC RISC chip was great, it did not use as much heat.
   
  I was almost and jokingly looking at Liquid cooling unit, LOL
   
  David 
   
   
   
  
Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  My issue had nothing to do with the CPU Fan. The CPU Fan that came with 
the system was perfect.

It was the Northbridge Chip fan/heatsink that wasn't up to the task of 
properly keeping the motherboard chips cool enough to operate. The 
Northbridge can be read about here: 


I'm also running AMD CPUs, not that it is relevant to the discussion.

-Rob


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
From: David Lane 
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list 
Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:43:25 AM
> Are you using the Stock Intel (if it is intel) cooling fan. Because in 
> this build I baught a diffetent cpu fan. And will replace all the 
> other stock Intel fans because they dont always snap all the way then 
> later it wiggles loose and you are suffering heat shutdowns.
> 
> David
>
> */Robert Adkins /* wrote:
>
> Personally, I prefer ASUS and maybe MSI products.
>
> My current "main rig" originally had an MSI board. They did a
> piss-poor
> job of designing the cooling system on the mainboard. I was suffering
> from a series of heat related shutdowns. In the end, it turned out
> that
> the entire problem was related to the Northbridge chip overheating
> something fierce.
>
> Right now, I have the extra guts to rebuild a second PC. I just
> need to
> fabricate or replace the entire mainboard chip cooling system to
> have it
> run properly...
>
> The ASUS Board I replaced it with has been operating awesomely.
>
> -Rob
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
> From: David Lane
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:54:10 AM
> > Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board
> that has
> > the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)
> >
> > */"Morris, Tim" /* wrote:
> >
> > Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have
> > options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to
> > emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the
> > board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting
> > them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but
> > from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to
> > AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be
> > wrong...
> >
> > For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one
> > still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely
> > after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
> >
> > -- Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]
> > *On Behalf Of *David Lane
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
> > *To:* MDLUG's Main discussion list
> > *Subject:* Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga
> >
> > I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran. It looks
> > like it will be a while until I build another system.
> >
> >
> >
> > */Michael Rudas /* wrote:
> >
> > On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> > > Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when
> > I bought a
> > > certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the
> > beginning of my problems.
> > >
> > > I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my
> > 4th build would
> > > be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was
> > the problem. The
> > > motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
> >
> > I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
> > two things:
> >
> > 1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
> > largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
> > others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
> > unknown.
> > 2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
> > their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
> > Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
> > reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
> > believe me.
> > Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
> >
> > -- Mikey
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your
> > pocket:
> >
> > mail, news, photos & more.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places
> > on
> > Yahoo! Travel.
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places 
> on 
> Yahoo! Travel.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


 
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/9d7ef07b/attachment.html>

From mcmay at rgis.com  Wed Jul 11 09:58:38 2007
From: mcmay at rgis.com (Mathew May)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:58:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <1184099320.3598.3.camel@plumber.site>
References: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1184099320.3598.3.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <1184162318.3126.1.camel@issmcmmb>

There are actually three versions now.  OpenSuse is the free product
SLED (SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop) and SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise
Server) are the purchase products.

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 16:28 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 12:12 -0700, David Lane wrote:
> >  
> >  
> > Is OpenSuse just a name change ?
> >  
> > Are there ant issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?
> >  
> 
> David,
> 	They did reorganize the way their products are named. Opensuse is the
> free as in beer version and I think "SLED" is now the boxed version with
> support. There's another recent thread that deals with opensuse issues,
> as it were.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 11:14:28 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:14:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <1184162318.3126.1.camel@issmcmmb>
Message-ID: <932513.41860.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm just wandering if upgrading from Suse 10.1 to Opensuse 10.2 is a natual progression.
   
  David 
   
  
Mathew May <mcmay at rgis.com> wrote:
  There are actually three versions now. OpenSuse is the free product
SLED (SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop) and SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise
Server) are the purchase products.

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 16:28 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 12:12 -0700, David Lane wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Is OpenSuse just a name change ?
> > 
> > Are there ant issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?
> > 
> 
> David,
> They did reorganize the way their products are named. Opensuse is the
> free as in beer version and I think "SLED" is now the boxed version with
> support. There's another recent thread that deals with opensuse issues,
> as it were.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/e88e89da/attachment.html>

From gib at juno.com  Wed Jul 11 13:45:00 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:45:00 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] I've got a potential conflict for 7/14 meeting - Okay Now
Message-ID: <20070711.134500.15842.1@webmail38.lax.untd.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/10123182/attachment.ksh>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/10123182/attachment.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 13:48:50 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:48:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] I've got a potential conflict for 7/14 meeting - Okay
	Now
In-Reply-To: <20070711.134500.15842.1@webmail38.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <280156.12878.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What is the main topic?
  

"gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com> wrote:
     
  The conflict went away.  The launch was delayed.
   
  I'll be bringing Pepsi, Diet Pepsi and Slim Jims.
  Also a co-worker will come who is trying to install Linux on a new system.
   


_____________________________________________________________
Click here to refinance your mortgage. Low rates, approval in minutes.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/f878c327/attachment.html>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 17:54:34 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:54:34 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <545279.61319.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4694E0FE.6010404@impelind.com>
	<545279.61319.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707111454h991fa4ibe7fdbe939507448@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/11/07, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> For Heat it might be.  I have not seen any data on Heat disapation between
> AMD and Intel.

Tom's Hardware just posted an article about energy efficiency.  The
title says it all:
www.tomshardware.com/2007/07/11/energy-efficiency-intel-left-out-in-the-cold/


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Jul 11 13:09:57 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:09:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> (message from David
	Lane on Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT))
References: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070711170957.62F4A20AAFD@starfox.local>

David,

> Is OpenSuse just a name change ?

At this time, they differ only by the "Microsoft tax", but IMHO
content divergence will become significant in less than a year.

When SuSE was a German company targetting small businesses, it published
two lines of distro, SuSE and SuSE Pro.  SuSE was unencumbered, and came
on CDs and DVDs with hardcopy manuals, convenient for the administration
of several differently configured computers, as found at most small
businesses.  SuSE Pro included SuSE and several proprietary packages,
bundled at a discount.  (I found the Opera and Communicator seat
enough to justify the additional cost.)

<OVERSIMPLIFIED>When Novell bought SuSE, they tried to eliminate the
online support database, eliminate the unencumbered line,
use downloadable source from a throttled server to
satisfy GPL requirements, and get free tech support by giving OpenSuSE
to the community.<OVERSIMPLIFIED>

This backfired and they reconnected (but do not support) the online database,
eliminated the encumbered line, are threatened by GPL warranty issues,
and the community has been wary.

With the recent announcement that Novell will pay the "Microsoft tax",
many OpenSuSE supporters have moved to ubuntu, gentoo, and mepis.
   
> Are there [any] issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?

None that I am aware of.

-- 
Dr. B

"To translate it into UNIX system administration terms (Randy's
fundamental metaphor for just about everything), the post-modern,
politically correct atheists were like people who had suddenly found
themselves in charge of a big and unfathomably complex computer system
(viz. society) with no documentation or instruction of any kind, and so
whose only way to keep the thing running was to invent and enforce
certain rules with a kind of neo-Puritanic rigor, because they were at
a loss to deal with any deviations from what they saw as the norm.
Whereas people who were wired into a church were like UNIX system
administrators who, while they might not understand everything, at least
had some documentation, som FAQs and How-tos and README files, providing
some guidance on what to do when things got out of whack.  They were, in
other words, capable of displaying adaptability."
      -- Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon, p.585


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 12 08:23:03 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 05:23:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <20070711170957.62F4A20AAFD@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <937922.29615.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I liked getting it from the store.  Now I have to download it.
   
  Thanks 

"Dr. Robert J. Meier" <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
  David,

> Is OpenSuse just a name change ?

At this time, they differ only by the "Microsoft tax", but IMHO
content divergence will become significant in less than a year.

When SuSE was a German company targetting small businesses, it published
two lines of distro, SuSE and SuSE Pro. SuSE was unencumbered, and came
on CDs and DVDs with hardcopy manuals, convenient for the administration
of several differently configured computers, as found at most small
businesses. SuSE Pro included SuSE and several proprietary packages,
bundled at a discount. (I found the Opera and Communicator seat
enough to justify the additional cost.)

When Novell bought SuSE, they tried to eliminate the
online support database, eliminate the unencumbered line,
use downloadable source from a throttled server to
satisfy GPL requirements, and get free tech support by giving OpenSuSE
to the community.

This backfired and they reconnected (but do not support) the online database,
eliminated the encumbered line, are threatened by GPL warranty issues,
and the community has been wary.

With the recent announcement that Novell will pay the "Microsoft tax",
many OpenSuSE supporters have moved to ubuntu, gentoo, and mepis.

> Are there [any] issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?

None that I am aware of.

-- 
Dr. B

"To translate it into UNIX system administration terms (Randy's
fundamental metaphor for just about everything), the post-modern,
politically correct atheists were like people who had suddenly found
themselves in charge of a big and unfathomably complex computer system
(viz. society) with no documentation or instruction of any kind, and so
whose only way to keep the thing running was to invent and enforce
certain rules with a kind of neo-Puritanic rigor, because they were at
a loss to deal with any deviations from what they saw as the norm.
Whereas people who were wired into a church were like UNIX system
administrators who, while they might not understand everything, at least
had some documentation, som FAQs and How-tos and README files, providing
some guidance on what to do when things got out of whack. They were, in
other words, capable of displaying adaptability."
-- Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon, p.585
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


 
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and 
always stay connected to friends.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070712/6adb50bc/attachment.html>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 14:51:27 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:51:27 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Can't make it to the meeting this Saturday :(
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707131151s17e20fb9qc9a9b46d338a4240@mail.gmail.com>

Customer's PC failed (in Alpena) and I have to finish and drop off
their spare Saturday.  I upgraded the RAM on the failed system with
PC3200 but it wouldn't boot unless the original PC2100 was also
installed.  Now its crashing.  Probably needs a BIOS update.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 08:27:31 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:27:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Quick tips: VLC Media Player shortcuts
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>

I ran across this short video on CNET TV and found it useful-- a quick
guide to the keyboard shortcuts for VLC while in full-screen mode:
<http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-28193.html>

If you haven't tried it, it's an excellent cross-platform media player
for nearly every file format out there (of course, you need the right
codecs-- though many are provided).

-- Mikey


From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Jul 14 08:33:11 2007
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:33:11 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Job lead
Message-ID: <200707140833.46009.davidl@lmert.com>

My employer (located just outside of Lansing) would like to hire another 
developer.  We're have a mixed Linux/Windows server environment,  and our 
biggest in-house applications are written in Java.  To quote from the 
official job posting:

"Precision Motor Transport Group, LLC (PMTG), a premium automobile carrier, 
seeks a highly qualified Software Developer to join its staff. The candidate 
will need to be comfortable working with, evaluating, and debugging existing 
systems as well as developing new software. Requirements: four-year degree in 
computer science or equivalent work experience, 3+ years Java development 
experience, 3+ years Relational database /SQL experience, 1+ years in web 
development, and excellent communication /documentation skills. We offer a 
comfortable, casual environment, competitive pay, excellent benefits. Only 
resumes with a cover letter stating salary requirements will be considered. 
No phone calls please."

The company's website is:  http://www.pmtghome.com

If anyone is interested in this job,  it would be appropriate to contact my 
supervisor,  Tom Stave,  by e-mail at 

  tstave at bmtcarhaul.com

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From linux at ksimachine.com  Sat Jul 14 11:02:50 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:02:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] off topic - Novell
Message-ID: <4698E59A.8070601@ksimachine.com>

Sorry in advance for the none Linux question.

Would any one know where I can get a copy or borrow a copy of a NetWare
3.2 Enhancement Pack CD?

Thanks.


Joe St.Clair


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Sat Jul 14 01:50:10 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:50:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] How to load LG VX-6100/VX-8300 from linux
Message-ID: <20070714055010.84272A976A@Painter.local>

Phone users,

I just acquired an LG VX-6100 and a friend acquired a VX-8300.

I understand both can be programmed from a PC.

Is anyone doing so?
How is it done?
What are the standard protocols for programming cellphones?
     What are linux tools for such?

TIA
-- 
Dr. B



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Jul 14 12:05:18 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 12:05:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] How to load LG VX-6100/VX-8300 from linux
In-Reply-To: <20070714055010.84272A976A@Painter.local>
References: <20070714055010.84272A976A@Painter.local>
Message-ID: <1184429119.3658.1.camel@plumber.site>

On Sat, 2007-07-14 at 01:50 -0400, Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> Phone users,
> 
> I just acquired an LG VX-6100 and a friend acquired a VX-8300.
> 
> I understand both can be programmed from a PC.
> 
> Is anyone doing so?
> How is it done?
> What are the standard protocols for programming cellphones?
>      What are linux tools for such?


Dr. B,
	I'm not sure about what you're trying to do, but a good source of
information and links is <http://howardforums.com/>. 
Good Luck,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 12:11:31 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 12:11:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Quick tips: VLC Media Player shortcuts
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707140911y1272237fq5125acfd151c136d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/14/07, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I ran across this short video on CNET TV and found it useful-- a quick
> guide to the keyboard shortcuts for VLC while in full-screen mode:
> <http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-28193.html>

Useful for n00bs.  Thanks.


From tony at bemushosting.com  Sat Jul 14 21:16:18 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 21:16:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] How to load LG VX-6100/VX-8300 from linux
In-Reply-To: <1184429119.3658.1.camel@plumber.site>
References: <20070714055010.84272A976A@Painter.local>
	<1184429119.3658.1.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <1184462178.14378.3.camel@bemus-tony>

I use Bitpim with my Phone LG VX-8100.
I use it to sync my calendar, my SMS messages (Text messages),  call
logs, and Ring tones.  I know it can do more then I use it for.  You can
also browse the File system on the phone and edit files to hack your
phone.

Tony

On Sat, 2007-07-14 at 12:05 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-07-14 at 01:50 -0400, Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> > Phone users,
> > 
> > I just acquired an LG VX-6100 and a friend acquired a VX-8300.
> > 
> > I understand both can be programmed from a PC.
> > 
> > Is anyone doing so?
> > How is it done?
> > What are the standard protocols for programming cellphones?
> >      What are linux tools for such?
> 
> 
> Dr. B,
> 	I'm not sure about what you're trying to do, but a good source of
> information and links is <http://howardforums.com/>. 
> Good Luck,
-- 
Tony Bemus
Bemus Hosting
www.bemushosting.com



From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 15:29:44 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 15:29:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Quick tips: VLC Media Player shortcuts
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707151229l3e21eb8amad2d155394a4bf49@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/14/07, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I ran across this short video on CNET TV and found it useful-- a quick
> guide to the keyboard shortcuts for VLC while in full-screen mode:
> <http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-28193.html>
>
> If you haven't tried it, it's an excellent cross-platform media player
> for nearly every file format out there (of course, you need the right
> codecs-- though many are provided).
>
> -- Mikey
>

All I want from VLC is for it to automatically close after it is done
playing a video *without* having to add any command line parameters.  Why is
this not an option?


mplayer does this by default, and I've become accustomed to it.

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070715/0770a369/attachment.html>

From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Sun Jul 15 05:15:10 2007
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 05:15:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] off topic - Novell
In-Reply-To: <4698E59A.8070601@ksimachine.com>
References: <4698E59A.8070601@ksimachine.com>
Message-ID: <200707150515.10352.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Saturday 14 July 2007, Joe St.Clair wrote:
> Sorry in advance for the none Linux question.
>
> Would any one know where I can get a copy or borrow a copy of a NetWare
> 3.2 Enhancement Pack CD?
>

Wasn't that the Y2K fixpack collection for NetWare 3.12?

If so, you can't download it for free (as I recall it cost $200), but all the 
individual components were free downloads. Try searching for NetWare 3.12 and 
Y2K updates, or just download the current 3.12 versions of everything.

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul 16 15:53:09 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:53:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Can't make it to the meeting this Saturday :(
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707131151s17e20fb9qc9a9b46d338a4240@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335C8F6@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

I was just camping up there last weekend... You should've told me ;) 


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Jeff Hanson
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 2:51 PM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: [mdlug] Can't make it to the meeting this Saturday :(

Customer's PC failed (in Alpena) and I have to finish and drop off their
spare Saturday.  I upgraded the RAM on the failed system with PC3200 but
it wouldn't boot unless the original PC2100 was also installed.  Now its
crashing.  Probably needs a BIOS update.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From linux at ksimachine.com  Mon Jul 16 18:44:40 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:44:40 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] off topic - Novell
In-Reply-To: <200707150515.10352.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <4698E59A.8070601@ksimachine.com>
	<200707150515.10352.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <469BF4D8.1050606@ksimachine.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
> On Saturday 14 July 2007, Joe St.Clair wrote:
>   
>> Sorry in advance for the none Linux question.
>>
>> Would any one know where I can get a copy or borrow a copy of a NetWare
>> 3.2 Enhancement Pack CD?
>>
>>     
>
> Wasn't that the Y2K fixpack collection for NetWare 3.12?
>
> If so, you can't download it for free (as I recall it cost $200), but all the 
> individual components were free downloads. Try searching for NetWare 3.12 and 
> Y2K updates, or just download the current 3.12 versions of everything.
>
>   
There was some fixes also.  Some had to do with memory and hardware issues.
The original Enhancement pack CD was $395.  We can't seem to find our disk.

Thanks.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070716/a8b10ab3/attachment.html>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 18:56:58 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:56:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>

Remeber the M$ surface interface?
www.microsoft.com/surface/

Here is an alternative - MPX:
wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 00:06:36 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:06:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707162106r3fe7d5c4t6fac1ab807629ade@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/16/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Remeber the M$ surface interface?
> www.microsoft.com/surface/
>
> Here is an alternative - MPX:
> wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86


It's interesting how multi-touch is suddenly the coolest thing.  We
have things like the Apple iPhone and the Microsoft Surface, each with
its respective creator telling us how cool this multi-touch stuff is.
The only problem here is that multi-touch has been around since the
early 80's.  They've invented nothing here.

-Joseph


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul 17 08:10:30 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 08:10:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430707162106r3fe7d5c4t6fac1ab807629ade@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd889b430707162106r3fe7d5c4t6fac1ab807629ade@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469CB1B6.7050402@impelind.com>


-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: Joseph Vartanian <jvartanian at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:06:36 AM
> On 7/16/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Remeber the M$ surface interface?
>> www.microsoft.com/surface/
>>
>> Here is an alternative - MPX:
>> wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86
>>     
>
>
> It's interesting how multi-touch is suddenly the coolest thing.  We
> have things like the Apple iPhone and the Microsoft Surface, each with
> its respective creator telling us how cool this multi-touch stuff is.
> The only problem here is that multi-touch has been around since the
> early 80's.  They've invented nothing here.
>
> -Joseph
>   

    Heck, that's even discounting Nintendo's Wii Console, which beat the 
iPhone to market by more than a few months. Multiple Wiimotes can 
interact with things on screen simultaneously.

    Take that slightly further, Pong beat pretty much everything, since 
two controllers interacted with the on screen activity at the same time...

    It's nothing new, just a different angle of approach.

    -Rob


From tmorris at ugs.com  Tue Jul 17 12:50:57 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:50:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430707162106r3fe7d5c4t6fac1ab807629ade@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

Nothing new. It's called marketing. Don't you guys remember when
Microsoft "invented" the symbolic link? 

Words have no meaning these days.

--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Joseph Vartanian
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:07 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer

On 7/16/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Remeber the M$ surface interface?
> www.microsoft.com/surface/
>
> Here is an alternative - MPX:
> wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86


It's interesting how multi-touch is suddenly the coolest thing.  We have
things like the Apple iPhone and the Microsoft Surface, each with its
respective creator telling us how cool this multi-touch stuff is.
The only problem here is that multi-touch has been around since the
early 80's.  They've invented nothing here.

-Joseph
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul 17 13:16:30 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:16:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
References: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: Morris, Tim <tmorris at ugs.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:50:57 PM
> Nothing new. It's called marketing. Don't you guys remember when
> Microsoft "invented" the symbolic link? 
>
> Words have no meaning these days.
>
> --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
>   
    Their "symbolic link" isn't even a real "symbolic" link. It's some 
binary crap that contains information about where the real file is. 
This, for some bizarre reason, sometimes comes across as a complete 
surprise to even instructors of computer science classes who are 
familiar with how UNIX Symbolic links function.

    MS does some really crappy things when they copy an original 
idea/concept.

    Did you know that there is a method in the NTFS file system to truly 
and effectively hide files? I forgot the exact name of the feature, I 
believe it's called "slip" something. What it does is allows you to 
"hide" files by filling in the remaining bits of a cluster that aren't 
fully used by the real/visible file. It's slipping a file into/under an 
existing file and it supposedly completely hides the file.

    I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature that 
would be acceptable in a "secure" environment, since one could use that 
feature to sneak secrets out of a computer network within an otherwise 
benign file.

    -Rob


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 14:01:24 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:01:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
References: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
	<469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707171101g37496500s43049abd409b995e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/17/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
> From: Morris, Tim <tmorris at ugs.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:50:57 PM
> > Nothing new. It's called marketing. Don't you guys remember when
> > Microsoft "invented" the symbolic link?
> >
> > Words have no meaning these days.
> >
> > --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
> >
>     Their "symbolic link" isn't even a real "symbolic" link. It's some
> binary crap that contains information about where the real file is.
> This, for some bizarre reason, sometimes comes across as a complete
> surprise to even instructors of computer science classes who are
> familiar with how UNIX Symbolic links function.
>
>     MS does some really crappy things when they copy an original
> idea/concept.
>
>     Did you know that there is a method in the NTFS file system to truly
> and effectively hide files? I forgot the exact name of the feature, I
> believe it's called "slip" something. What it does is allows you to
> "hide" files by filling in the remaining bits of a cluster that aren't
> fully used by the real/visible file. It's slipping a file into/under an
> existing file and it supposedly completely hides the file.
>
>     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature that
> would be acceptable in a "secure" environment, since one could use that
> feature to sneak secrets out of a computer network within an otherwise
> benign file.


That NTFS feature is called "alternative data streams".  Play with it
a little...it's actually interesting.  You can do something like
create a 1 KB text file, and then hide a 500 KB executable in it.  The
thing still looks like a 1 KB text file that you can open and use like
any regular text file, but you can also run the executable hidden in
it with a simple command.  Some spyware and trojan writers have
learned to utilize alternative data streams to hide their files.  Many
anti-spyware and anti-virus programs don't search for alternative data
streams.  Windows also does not come with any tool to let you find
alternative data stream in your filesystem.  If you want that, you
have to download tools like Sysinternals' Streams (now owned by
Microsoft).  From what I understand Apple has something similar in
their OS, but I'm not much into Apple.

-Joseph


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul 17 14:04:51 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:04:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430707171101g37496500s43049abd409b995e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>	<469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
	<dd889b430707171101g37496500s43049abd409b995e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469D04C3.8010701@impelind.com>


>>     Did you know that there is a method in the NTFS file system to truly
>> and effectively hide files? I forgot the exact name of the feature, I
>> believe it's called "slip" something. What it does is allows you to
>> "hide" files by filling in the remaining bits of a cluster that aren't
>> fully used by the real/visible file. It's slipping a file into/under an
>> existing file and it supposedly completely hides the file.
>>
>>     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature that
>> would be acceptable in a "secure" environment, since one could use that
>> feature to sneak secrets out of a computer network within an otherwise
>> benign file.
>>     
>
>
> That NTFS feature is called "alternative data streams".  Play with it
> a little...it's actually interesting.  You can do something like
> create a 1 KB text file, and then hide a 500 KB executable in it.  The
> thing still looks like a 1 KB text file that you can open and use like
> any regular text file, but you can also run the executable hidden in
> it with a simple command.  Some spyware and trojan writers have
> learned to utilize alternative data streams to hide their files.  Many
> anti-spyware and anti-virus programs don't search for alternative data
> streams.  Windows also does not come with any tool to let you find
> alternative data stream in your filesystem.  If you want that, you
> have to download tools like Sysinternals' Streams (now owned by
> Microsoft).  From what I understand Apple has something similar in
> their OS, but I'm not much into Apple.
>
> -Joseph
>   

    Pardon my language...

    That is a fucking ridiculous feature that serves no legit purpose.

    -Rob


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 17 14:35:12 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:35:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
References: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
	<469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <469D0BE0.9090600@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature that 
> would be acceptable in a "secure" environment, since one could use that 
> feature to sneak secrets out of a computer network within an otherwise 
> benign file.
>   

It might be tinfoil hat thinking, but as much as MS likes to poke into
"MY" computer this function does not surprise me at all.  The better to
hide their "offical" spys.

Worse, it lets anyone that knows about it hide their malicious files too.

ERGO:  NTSF is an unsecured and unsecureable file system.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Jul 17 16:12:39 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:12:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469D0BE0.9090600@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E45@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Garry Stahl

> >     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature...

> It might be tinfoil hat thinking, but as much as MS likes to poke into
> "MY" computer this function does not surprise me at all.  The better to
> hide their "offical" spys.

 Actually, I think this can be attributed to stupidity rather than malice.
Macs use a second data stream in a file to good effect - the "Resource Fork".
(The regular data is called the "Data Fork"). The "Resource Fork" can contain
things like dialog box definitions, internationalizable strings, and so forth.
There was a tool called "ResEdit" that would let you play with them; you could
change the sounds an application made or whatever.

 MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
A lot of their stuff is like that, just features to list in marketing
brochures.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

 "Well, I say there are some things we don't *want* to know!
            Important things!" - Ned Flanders

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 18:40:44 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:40:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E45@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <469D0BE0.9090600@comcast.net>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E45@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707171540l756129f1nbd5593fed6e4c25c@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/17/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > From: Garry Stahl
>
> > >     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature...
>
> > It might be tinfoil hat thinking, but as much as MS likes to poke into
> > "MY" computer this function does not surprise me at all.  The better to
> > hide their "offical" spys.
>
>  Actually, I think this can be attributed to stupidity rather than malice.
> Macs use a second data stream in a file to good effect - the "Resource Fork".
> (The regular data is called the "Data Fork"). The "Resource Fork" can contain
> things like dialog box definitions, internationalizable strings, and so forth.
> There was a tool called "ResEdit" that would let you play with them; you could
> change the sounds an application made or whatever.
>
>  MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
> A lot of their stuff is like that, just features to list in marketing
> brochures.

Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
Yeah, ADS may be scary, but they do use it for something.  I can't
tell you who outside Microsoft has a legitimate use for ADS, but at
least we know Microsoft has a use for it.  I'm sure other companies
use it, I just don't know who...never cared to find out.  If you're
twisted and like to consider spyware, trojans and rootkits as
legitimate uses, then there's that too.

-Joseph


From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Wed Jul 18 06:34:45 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:34:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] zap2it lab update
Message-ID: <469DECC5.4060207@starline-ent.com>

Good news
It looks like progress is being made to find/create a replacement for 
the zap2it labs TV listing service that will be discontinued September 1.

This will effect all you MythTV users

http://www.linux.com/feature/117717


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Jul 18 09:32:20 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:32:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430707171540l756129f1nbd5593fed6e4c25c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Joseph Vartanian

> >  MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.

> Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.

 But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
products *less* portable... :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317

 "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
     21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
                            Steven Waldman
     http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 11:10:53 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:10:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>

Curious.

Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a 
government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's 
file system?

Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that 
certification?

If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a 
massive shit storm over this "feature"?

-Rob

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
>> From: Joseph Vartanian
>>     
>
>   
>>>  MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
>>>       
>
>   
>> Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
>> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
>>     
>
>  But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
> regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
> products *less* portable... :->
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
>      21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
>                             Steven Waldman
>      http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   



From carew at pobox.com  Wed Jul 18 11:22:28 2007
From: carew at pobox.com (Evan Carew)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:22:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <469E3034.9020606@pobox.com>

In the past, MS has received that clearance with the stipulation that no
peripherals be connected to the PC running that OS (mice and keyboards
excepted). Other stipulations included a case lock (eye wash) and no
network connection.

Evan

Robert Adkins wrote:

>Curious.
>
>Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a 
>government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's 
>file system?
>
>Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that 
>certification?
>
>If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a 
>massive shit storm over this "feature"?
>
>-Rob
>
>-------- Original Message  --------
>Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
>From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
>  
>
>>>From: Joseph Vartanian
>>>    
>>>      
>>>
>>  
>>    
>>
>>>> MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
>>>>      
>>>>        
>>>>
>>  
>>    
>>
>>>Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
>>>ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
>>>    
>>>      
>>>
>> But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
>>regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
>>products *less* portable... :->
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317
>>
>> "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
>>     21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
>>                            Steven Waldman
>>     http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
>>The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>  
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>  
>



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 18 11:42:34 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:42:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <20070718154234.39234.qmail@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well Military encrption is very strong.  And there are many levels of security befor you even get to the box.
   
  Remember the Intel computational error.  It was very minamal.  
   
  David 
  
Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  Curious.

Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a 
government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's 
file system?

Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that 
certification?

If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a 
massive shit storm over this "feature"?

-Rob

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: Ingles, Raymond 
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list 
Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
>> From: Joseph Vartanian
>> 
>
> 
>>> MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
>>> 
>
> 
>> Actually, they do have uses for this feature. MS SQL Server 2005 uses
>> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
>> 
>
> But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
> regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
> products *less* portable... :->
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
>
> "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
> 21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
> Steven Waldman
> http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake. 
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070718/d17a27ea/attachment.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 11:44:33 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:44:33 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <20070718154234.39234.qmail@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20070718154234.39234.qmail@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <469E3561.4060106@impelind.com>

It only takes one user, one mistake to compromise a Windows box. If the 
compromise happens with a very intelligently built program, then it most 
likely wouldn't matter what encryption they are using on the box, the 
hidden component could be injected into something innocuous and be 
duplicating/feeding that data through whatever pipe that was originally 
used to infiltrate the network.

-Rob

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 11:42:34 AM
> Well Military encrption is very strong.  And there are many levels of 
> security befor you even get to the box.
>  
> Remember the Intel computational error.  It was very minamal. 
>  
> David
>
> */Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Curious.
>
>     Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a
>     government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's
>     file system?
>
>     Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that
>     certification?
>
>     If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a
>     massive shit storm over this "feature"?
>
>     -Rob
>
>     -------- Original Message --------
>     Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
>     From: Ingles, Raymond
>     To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
>     Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
>     >> From: Joseph Vartanian
>     >>
>     >
>     >
>     >>> MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a
>     use for it.
>     >>>
>     >
>     >
>     >> Actually, they do have uses for this feature. MS SQL Server
>     2005 uses
>     >> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
>     >>
>     >
>     > But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't
>     be done with
>     > regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just
>     to make those
>     > products *less* portable... :->
>     >
>     > Sincerely,
>     >
>     > Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
>     >
>     > "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the
>     views of
>     > 21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
>     > Steven Waldman
>     > http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
>     > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee
>     only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you
>     are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not
>     copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it
>     in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > mdlug mailing list
>     > mdlug at mdlug.org
>     > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Building a website is a piece of cake.
> Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48251/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting/?p=PASSPORTPLUS> 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 12:25:55 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:25:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Cute. Very cute. (No, not really.)
Message-ID: <469E3F13.6030502@impelind.com>

<http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/07/18/1434229.shtml>

    I do believe that the story speaks for itself. The FBI has the 
ability to remotely exploit computers (Presumably only Windows PCs, but 
I wouldn't bet that Macs are any safer) and install their own 'malware'.

    Here's my thoughts:

    1. I'm surprised that this showed up in a warrant. Nothing has 
stopped the FBI from abusing the PATRIOT Act before, why stop abusing it 
now?

    2. Who watches the watchers? How do we know that Agent Chip (On his 
Shoulder) isn't using his knowledge of this back door to compromise the 
systems of people he doesn't like? What kind of limit really exists on 
this back door? Presumably, if they can access the PC remotely to obtain 
records they would/could also add other data to the PC. How do we know 
for sure that someone (like Agent Chip) hasn't or won't ever use this 
power to plant evidence to help someone "get rid" of a problem individual?

    3. Where's the outrage?

    -Rob


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 18 12:33:06 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:33:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Cute. Very cute. (No, not really.)
In-Reply-To: <469E3F13.6030502@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <292303.76534.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is very simular to a phone tap. 
   
  And the ACLU American Civil Liberties Union might have some thing to say about it.
   
  David 
   
  
Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  

I do believe that the story speaks for itself. The FBI has the 
ability to remotely exploit computers (Presumably only Windows PCs, but 
I wouldn't bet that Macs are any safer) and install their own 'malware'.

Here's my thoughts:

1. I'm surprised that this showed up in a warrant. Nothing has 
stopped the FBI from abusing the PATRIOT Act before, why stop abusing it 
now?

2. Who watches the watchers? How do we know that Agent Chip (On his 
Shoulder) isn't using his knowledge of this back door to compromise the 
systems of people he doesn't like? What kind of limit really exists on 
this back door? Presumably, if they can access the PC remotely to obtain 
records they would/could also add other data to the PC. How do we know 
for sure that someone (like Agent Chip) hasn't or won't ever use this 
power to plant evidence to help someone "get rid" of a problem individual?

3. Where's the outrage?

-Rob
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070718/ef3cc6d7/attachment.html>

From gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 13:24:22 2007
From: gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com (G Balaji)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:24:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>

I dont recall everything, nor do I recall correctly, but I think: -

1. One of the initial reasoning for introduction of ADS was security.

2. Windows 2000 Professional edition was the only commercial OS (does
this exclude *BSD/Linux?) to be certified by the US Military that it
was compliant for one of their (top) INFOSEC standards, and I think
ADS played a big part in it.

3. ADS, in secure environments, is used to increase security by
placing additional file attributes - say, a document can be marked as
non-printable, even if it is readable and writeable. It can also be
used to embed file-application attributes - say, a document can be
opened with only Application X. It can also be used to embed
file-application-user attributes - say, a document can be printable
only by user X and only by using application Y. If these features of
ADS are used in the right secure environments, a file cannot be
compromised - modified/copied/sent-over-network etc, as long as the
(securely hardened) operating system is running.  These are in
addition to the security restrictions (ownership, group rights, disk
quota restrictions etc..) that are handled by, and stored in the file
system manager.

Also, ADS is programmer-extensible - any programmer can enhance their
security system by embedding their own dreamt-up custom rights using
ADS.

Of course, this customizable aspect of it was what was used by malware writers.

Apologies for not providing references.. some of what I'd read was on
real paper (the description of the referred INFOSEC standard was part
of a graduate-level Network Security course curriculum*); but most if
not all of the above can be looked into, and be either rejected or
accepted.

[* : some body else might recognize the actual standard from one of
what I thought was its salient feature: a user with a certain
clearance-level security can read a document at his security clearance
level and all lower levels, but can author/write a document only at
his clearance-level or higher]

-B.


On 7/18/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
> Curious.
>
> Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a
> government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's
> file system?
>
> Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that
> certification?
>
> If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a
> massive shit storm over this "feature"?
>
> -Rob
>
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
> From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
> >> From: Joseph Vartanian
> >>
> >
> >
> >>>  MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
> >>>
> >
> >
> >> Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
> >> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
> >>
> >
> >  But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
> > regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
> > products *less* portable... :->
> >
> >  Sincerely,
> >
> >  Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317
> >
> >  "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
> >      21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
> >                             Steven Waldman
> >      http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
> > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 14:03:58 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:03:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: G Balaji <gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:24:22 PM
> I dont recall everything, nor do I recall correctly, but I think: -
>
> 1. One of the initial reasoning for introduction of ADS was security.
>
> 2. Windows 2000 Professional edition was the only commercial OS (does
> this exclude *BSD/Linux?) to be certified by the US Military that it
> was compliant for one of their (top) INFOSEC standards, and I think
> ADS played a big part in it.
>
> 3. ADS, in secure environments, is used to increase security by
> placing additional file attributes - say, a document can be marked as
> non-printable, even if it is readable and writeable. It can also be
> used to embed file-application attributes - say, a document can be
> opened with only Application X. It can also be used to embed
> file-application-user attributes - say, a document can be printable
> only by user X and only by using application Y. If these features of
> ADS are used in the right secure environments, a file cannot be
> compromised - modified/copied/sent-over-network etc, as long as the
> (securely hardened) operating system is running.  These are in
> addition to the security restrictions (ownership, group rights, disk
> quota restrictions etc..) that are handled by, and stored in the file
> system manager.
>
> Also, ADS is programmer-extensible - any programmer can enhance their
> security system by embedding their own dreamt-up custom rights using
> ADS.
>
> Of course, this customizable aspect of it was what was used by malware writers.
>
> Apologies for not providing references.. some of what I'd read was on
> real paper (the description of the referred INFOSEC standard was part
> of a graduate-level Network Security course curriculum*); but most if
> not all of the above can be looked into, and be either rejected or
> accepted.
>
> [* : some body else might recognize the actual standard from one of
> what I thought was its salient feature: a user with a certain
> clearance-level security can read a document at his security clearance
> level and all lower levels, but can author/write a document only at
> his clearance-level or higher]
>
> -B.
>
>   
    All of that is fine and dandy and some of that does make sense... 
except.

    A. Without using an externally available tool, there is no way for a 
user to know become aware that ADS has been used on their PC. (User 
includes the System Administrator who may have built the system and 
installed the OS as well.)

    B. Everything I have read shows that there is no logging performed 
regarding the creation, modification or deletion of any ADS elements.

    C. Even with what you wrote about the 
security/government/military/secret "benefits" of this, from what I have 
read pretty much anyone who has RW access to a given file can easily 
strip out anything placed into or inject more into the ADS of a given 
file. The utility is a simple built-in Windows command with no real 
security built into it. The NTFS Driver would have to be customized to 
understand to even look for the extra bits tucked away in the ADS in 
order to be of any real use.

    -Rob

   


From gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 14:31:07 2007
From: gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com (G Balaji)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:31:07 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
> From: G Balaji <gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:24:22 PM
> > I dont recall everything, nor do I recall correctly, but I think: -
> >
> > 1. One of the initial reasoning for introduction of ADS was security.
> >
> > 2. Windows 2000 Professional edition was the only commercial OS (does
> > this exclude *BSD/Linux?) to be certified by the US Military that it
> > was compliant for one of their (top) INFOSEC standards, and I think
> > ADS played a big part in it.
> >
> > 3. ADS, in secure environments, is used to increase security by
> > placing additional file attributes - say, a document can be marked as
> > non-printable, even if it is readable and writeable. It can also be
> > used to embed file-application attributes - say, a document can be
> > opened with only Application X. It can also be used to embed
> > file-application-user attributes - say, a document can be printable
> > only by user X and only by using application Y. If these features of
> > ADS are used in the right secure environments, a file cannot be
> > compromised - modified/copied/sent-over-network etc, as long as the
> > (securely hardened) operating system is running.  These are in
> > addition to the security restrictions (ownership, group rights, disk
> > quota restrictions etc..) that are handled by, and stored in the file
> > system manager.
> >
> > Also, ADS is programmer-extensible - any programmer can enhance their
> > security system by embedding their own dreamt-up custom rights using
> > ADS.
> >
> > Of course, this customizable aspect of it was what was used by malware writers.
> >
> > Apologies for not providing references.. some of what I'd read was on
> > real paper (the description of the referred INFOSEC standard was part
> > of a graduate-level Network Security course curriculum*); but most if
> > not all of the above can be looked into, and be either rejected or
> > accepted.
> >
> > [* : some body else might recognize the actual standard from one of
> > what I thought was its salient feature: a user with a certain
> > clearance-level security can read a document at his security clearance
> > level and all lower levels, but can author/write a document only at
> > his clearance-level or higher]
> >
> > -B.
> >
> >
>     All of that is fine and dandy and some of that does make sense...
> except.
>
>     A. Without using an externally available tool, there is no way for a
> user to know become aware that ADS has been used on their PC. (User
> includes the System Administrator who may have built the system and
> installed the OS as well.)
>
>     B. Everything I have read shows that there is no logging performed
> regarding the creation, modification or deletion of any ADS elements.
>
>     C. Even with what you wrote about the
> security/government/military/secret "benefits" of this, from what I have
> read pretty much anyone who has RW access to a given file can easily
> strip out anything placed into or inject more into the ADS of a given
> file. The utility is a simple built-in Windows command with no real
> security built into it. The NTFS Driver would have to be customized to
> understand to even look for the extra bits tucked away in the ADS in
> order to be of any real use.
>
>     -Rob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

All true. I agree.

If the NTFS driver is not ADS-aware, then, yes the benefits of ADS washes away.
But, similarly, it is true of almost all non-encrypted file systems -
if the file system is not running, then there is no security for its'
files - the intruder can load his own file system manager, disregard
security flags, and steal information.

ADS was intended to be used as a small, but important, measure in
ensuring overall security of an operating system - but this works only
if all other measures are in place and are effective.

If not in the original design decisions, at least from the (harsh)
lessons learnt, ADS should have been severely restricted - if nothing
else, at least in the max size an ADS stream can grow up to.

-B.


From rrcb21 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 18 15:54:46 2007
From: rrcb21 at yahoo.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:54:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] zap2it lab update
Message-ID: <22826.47357.qm@web82304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


not ALL MythTV Users just those in the US and Canada.


----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com>
To: MDLUG <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:34:45 AM
Subject: [mdlug] zap2it lab update

Good news
It looks like progress is being made to find/create a replacement for 
the zap2it labs TV listing service that will be discontinued September 1.

This will effect all you MythTV users

http://www.linux.com/feature/117717
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 16:10:21 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:10:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>

>
>
> All true. I agree.
>
> If the NTFS driver is not ADS-aware, then, yes the benefits of ADS washes away.
> But, similarly, it is true of almost all non-encrypted file systems -
> if the file system is not running, then there is no security for its'
> files - the intruder can load his own file system manager, disregard
> security flags, and steal information.
>
> ADS was intended to be used as a small, but important, measure in
> ensuring overall security of an operating system - but this works only
> if all other measures are in place and are effective.
>
> If not in the original design decisions, at least from the (harsh)
> lessons learnt, ADS should have been severely restricted - if nothing
> else, at least in the max size an ADS stream can grow up to.
>
> -B.
>   

    I've been doing a little more reading and remembering about some 
File System things.

    Alternative Data Streams is not the same as Metadata.

    Metadata is part of the normal file and can be used to input things 
that the OS can use to determine what kind of file it is looking at. 
This is what Apple did for years with the Mac, even if it had something 
similar to ADS, as I understand it, this isn't what the Metadata is.

    Metadata is like a "header" in a file. In a way this metadata is 
similar to what you see in the first few lines of virtually every single 
Binary format CAD/CAM file. In the first few lines there is plain text 
information telling you the CAD System the file was generated from, what 
version, sometimes this information is more in depth and includes the 
part name/program name for the part the CAD File represents; when I say 
"Program Name" I am saying like the "Code Name" for some new automobile.

    Anyway, what got me thinking about this is some stuff I was reading 
regarding a need for people to start using the metadata features of file 
systems (I believe even FAT32 can do this) to get away from the finite 
combination of the three letter extension. This was talked up regarding 
the metadata capabilities of Linux and certain Desktop Environments. 
It's been a while since I read this stuff so my memory could be slightly 
off.

    -Rob


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jul 18 16:17:25 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:17:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>     Anyway, what got me thinking about this is some stuff I was reading 
> regarding a need for people to start using the metadata features of file 
> systems (I believe even FAT32 can do this) to get away from the finite 
> combination of the three letter extension. This was talked up regarding 
> the metadata capabilities of Linux and certain Desktop Environments. 
> It's been a while since I read this stuff so my memory could be slightly 
> off.
>   

Amiga (yea that again) uses file headers in that fashion from the very
start.  Learning to add file extensions was something I had to do once I
started using DOS based systems.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 16:31:14 2007
From: gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com (G Balaji)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:31:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <a42f3f3d0707181331j5a53d117g8c87c073de271c46@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > All true. I agree.
> >
> > If the NTFS driver is not ADS-aware, then, yes the benefits of ADS washes away.
> > But, similarly, it is true of almost all non-encrypted file systems -
> > if the file system is not running, then there is no security for its'
> > files - the intruder can load his own file system manager, disregard
> > security flags, and steal information.
> >
> > ADS was intended to be used as a small, but important, measure in
> > ensuring overall security of an operating system - but this works only
> > if all other measures are in place and are effective.
> >
> > If not in the original design decisions, at least from the (harsh)
> > lessons learnt, ADS should have been severely restricted - if nothing
> > else, at least in the max size an ADS stream can grow up to.
> >
> > -B.
> >
>
>     I've been doing a little more reading and remembering about some
> File System things.
>
>     Alternative Data Streams is not the same as Metadata.
>
>     Metadata is part of the normal file and can be used to input things
> that the OS can use to determine what kind of file it is looking at.
> This is what Apple did for years with the Mac, even if it had something
> similar to ADS, as I understand it, this isn't what the Metadata is.
>
>     Metadata is like a "header" in a file. In a way this metadata is
> similar to what you see in the first few lines of virtually every single
> Binary format CAD/CAM file. In the first few lines there is plain text
> information telling you the CAD System the file was generated from, what
> version, sometimes this information is more in depth and includes the
> part name/program name for the part the CAD File represents; when I say
> "Program Name" I am saying like the "Code Name" for some new automobile.
>
>     Anyway, what got me thinking about this is some stuff I was reading
> regarding a need for people to start using the metadata features of file
> systems (I believe even FAT32 can do this) to get away from the finite
> combination of the three letter extension. This was talked up regarding
> the metadata capabilities of Linux and certain Desktop Environments.
> It's been a while since I read this stuff so my memory could be slightly
> off.
>
>     -Rob
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

True, ADS and meta-data are dis-similar. But, ADS _can_ be used to
store meta-data. And meta-data is not used to store the kind and range
of data an ADS can store.

On the other hand, meta-data is application-specific. The Portable
Network Graphics standard defines allowable meta-data in its file
structure specification. The Java Virtual Machine Specification
defines allowable meta-data in its specification.

But a PNG viewer cannot make sense of a Java class file, and a Java
class decompiler cannot make sense of a PNG file.

And, if the operating system is not made aware of the application to
which a file (extension *) is to be associated with, it has no use for
the meta-data embedded in the files.

* - Although file name extensions are commonly used as "the way" to
determine application affinity, this is another way on the Internet.

From gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 16:32:41 2007
From: gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com (G Balaji)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:32:41 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com> <469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> >     Anyway, what got me thinking about this is some stuff I was reading
> > regarding a need for people to start using the metadata features of file
> > systems (I believe even FAT32 can do this) to get away from the finite
> > combination of the three letter extension. This was talked up regarding
> > the metadata capabilities of Linux and certain Desktop Environments.
> > It's been a while since I read this stuff so my memory could be slightly
> > off.
> >
>
> Amiga (yea that again) uses file headers in that fashion from the very
> start.  Learning to add file extensions was something I had to do once I
> started using DOS based systems.
>
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
>
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
> Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
> The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

I am not familiar with Amiga. In Amiga, how were files associated with
applications? Was the operating system aware of the
file-header-application association?

-B.


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jul 18 17:00:32 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:00:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
	<469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>
	<a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469E7F70.1090007@comcast.net>

G Balaji wrote:
> I am not familiar with Amiga. In Amiga, how were files associated with
> applications? Was the operating system aware of the
> file-header-application association?
>   

Yes, file extensions were not used.  They could be used by were not
required.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jul 18 20:20:53 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:20:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] t-bird system font size?
Message-ID: <906793.87318.qm@web81801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello, I just got a new system and when I first boot, it defaults to 1900 x 1200.   I've managed to get all my other non-thunderbird fonts to be an acceptable size.     But the menus in thunderbird are still super tiny.   And so are the emails.  I can barely read them.    I can't find any way to adjust this.  I've checked the help and looked on the web.    Does anyone know how to do this?      (I'm doing this from webmail, which is fine).     Thanks.     
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070718/46edc042/attachment.html>

From jvartanian at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 23:02:38 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:02:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707182002x5fb7635u8a64c14b383a1a54@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/16/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Remeber the M$ surface interface?
> www.microsoft.com/surface/
>
> Here is an alternative - MPX:
> wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86


Going back to the original subject of the Microsoft Surface...check
out this great parody video about it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY

-Joseph


From jjn at nuge.com  Thu Jul 19 06:32:53 2007
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 06:32:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 7/19/07 (TONIGHT!!!)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0707190623080.5210-100000@home.nuge.com>



                    *** Meeting Announcement ***
                             for the
                 Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG

           Date/Time: Thursday July 19th at 8pm

           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
                      Room BE-182

              Topic:  Amarok & XMMS sound systems
                 By:  Kevin O'Brien

   Kevin will show us the ins and outs of the Amarok and XMMS sound 
systems used in Linux.

      *AND*

   Kraig Hayner will show us a commercial rack-mounted Linux server and
describe the "features" that make it usefull for deployment in a remote
data center.

 
   NOTE: Yeah yeah yeah, the webpage hasn't been updated since April.  I
really don't care.  I may or may not attend the meeting.  Procede without
me if I don't show up! --- Jay

                         ================================

      See [www.lugwash.org] for further information about the Washtenaw 
Linux Users Group, maps and directions, and mailing list information.

          --- Jay

"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
 be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  6:01am  up 130 days,  2:28,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.06, 0.03




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 10:57:55 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:57:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>

I thought this was interesting considering how Linux-unfriendly they are:
www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-nicholas18jul18,0,7022711.story?coll=la-home-center

Flush with wealth from Broadcom Corp.'s 1998 public stock offering,
computer chip magnate Henry T. Nicholas III made a few additions to
his equestrian estate in Laguna Hills: hidden doors and secret levers,
an underground grotto, tunnels and a 2,000-square-foot sports bar he
called "Nick's Cafe."

But there was more, according to a claim made in court documents:
plans for a "secret and convenient lair" with hidden entries for
Nicholas to indulge his "manic obsession with prostitutes" and
"addiction to cocaine and Ecstasy."


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Jul 19 11:12:14 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:12:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469F7F4E.2010205@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:57:55 AM
> I thought this was interesting considering how Linux-unfriendly they are:
> www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-nicholas18jul18,0,7022711.story?coll=la-home-center
>
> Flush with wealth from Broadcom Corp.'s 1998 public stock offering,
> computer chip magnate Henry T. Nicholas III made a few additions to
> his equestrian estate in Laguna Hills: hidden doors and secret levers,
> an underground grotto, tunnels and a 2,000-square-foot sports bar he
> called "Nick's Cafe."
>
> But there was more, according to a claim made in court documents:
> plans for a "secret and convenient lair" with hidden entries for
> Nicholas to indulge his "manic obsession with prostitutes" and
> "addiction to cocaine and Ecstasy."
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

    Isn't that the dream that everyone has?

    kidding.... kidding...

    -Rob


From jjn at nuge.com  Thu Jul 19 14:21:26 2007
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:21:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
In-Reply-To: <469F7F4E.2010205@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0707191414420.5210-100000@home.nuge.com>

Greetings,

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Robert Adkins wrote:

> > But there was more, according to a claim made in court documents:
> > plans for a "secret and convenient lair" with hidden entries for
> > Nicholas to indulge his "manic obsession with prostitutes" and
> > "addiction to cocaine and Ecstasy."

> 
>     Isn't that the dream that everyone has?
> 
>     kidding.... kidding...

   "Do you ever have that dream where you're naked, and a dozen beautiful 
women are tossing little pickles at you?"  -- Val Kilmer in 'Real Genius'


      --- Jay
             
"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
 be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  2:01pm  up 130 days, 10:28,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00



From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Jul 19 14:22:45 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:22:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707191421200.2186@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-19, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
> But there was more, according to a claim made in court documents:
> plans for a "secret and convenient lair" with hidden entries for
> Nicholas to indulge his "manic obsession with prostitutes" and
> "addiction to cocaine and Ecstasy."

Woohoo, party at Nick's place!

Michael


From wolfger at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 15:35:48 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:35:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Windows/Firefox/MySpace/Flash
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707191235n26317ear2d2e5ba9854baabd@mail.gmail.com>

A friend of mine has a problem with her Firefox after yesterday's
update (WindowsXP version). The flash elements on her MySpace page no
longer function. I checked it out, and see no reason why... The page
worked fine before the Firefox upgrade was installed, it still works
fine on IE, or on Firefox on my Mepis box (which does not
auto-upgrade), and the upgraded Firefox still plays Flash on other
site (pandora.com). Flashblock is installed, if that makes a
difference (shouldn't). Anybody have any ideas?

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From gib at juno.com  Thu Jul 19 15:51:29 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:51:29 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Brian's Computer - SATA hardrive - GRUB
Message-ID: <20070719.155129.1103.2@webmail12.lax.untd.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070719/f9841495/attachment.ksh>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070719/f9841495/attachment.html>

From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Thu Jul 19 16:39:41 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:39:41 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Brian's Computer - SATA hardrive - GRUB
In-Reply-To: <20070719.155129.1103.2@webmail12.lax.untd.com>
References: <20070719.155129.1103.2@webmail12.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <469FCC0D.8060900@starline-ent.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
> We were working on installing Linux on Brian's new computer Saturday.  Linux installed with no problem. We had a problem where the Windows install kept asking for a floppy to obtain drivers for the SATA harddrive.  
> He discovered a BIOS setting (for RAID), that when disabled, allowed the Windows install to see the harddrive. So, he is happy.
> Next step is to remove the small harddrive that Windows is loaded on. Then he can load Windows on the big harddrive (big one will need to be set to master).  
> Question: how would he load GRUB after the windows install so he wouldn't need to reinstall Linux?

Boot up your LiveCD and run grub-install
See link for more info before doing this


http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#Installing-GRUB-using-grub_002dinstall

BD


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 22:58:42 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:58:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] t-bird system font size?
In-Reply-To: <906793.87318.qm@web81801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <906793.87318.qm@web81801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707191958w30376312ra754545e930fdd3d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Dean Durant wrote:

> I just got a new system and when I first boot, it defaults to 1900 x 1200.
>  I've managed to get all my other non-thunderbird fonts to be an
> acceptable size.  But the menus in thunderbird are still super tiny.
> And so are the emails.  I can barely read them.  I can't find any way to
> adjust this.  I've checked the help and looked on the web.  Does anyone
> know how to do this?  (I'm doing this from webmail, which is fine).

A quick Google search using the search-string "global font size
thunderbird" (without the quotes) found this useful article:
<http://kb.mozillazine.org/Pane_and_menu_fonts>

-- Mikey


From set at pobox.com  Fri Jul 20 00:19:29 2007
From: set at pobox.com (Paul)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:19:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>

	Hi;

	This is an interesting piece on what a computer means to
a professional writer-- in 1982. Its not a 'in my day' nostalgia
thing, but rather an article written in 1982 with some amusing
and ironic historical perspective, and most of all a refreshing
enthusiasm for computing for the ordinary man.
	Constrast this to what often sounds like a rather whiney
sense of entitlement and complaining that seems to surround a
lot of the technology we have today, especially amazing software
available for free....

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer

Paul
set at pobox.com


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Jul 20 00:50:35 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:50:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-20, Monsieur Paul a ecrit:
> 	This is an interesting piece on what a computer means to
> a professional writer-- in 1982. Its not a 'in my day' nostalgia
> thing, but rather an article written in 1982 with some amusing
> and ironic historical perspective, and most of all a refreshing
> enthusiasm for computing for the ordinary man.

Well, I don't know if I'd say that a writer for Atlantic Monthly is
representative of "the ordinary man"; he's more like a "nongeek".
But I get your point. ;)

> 	Constrast this to what often sounds like a rather whiney
> sense of entitlement and complaining that seems to surround a
> lot of the technology we have today, especially amazing software
> available for free....

Yeah, I've just about had it with all the whining and whingeing I see
on Linux distro forums, almost always from people who expect others to
drop what they're doing and volunteer to help fix their "PLZ HELP ME
URGENT LOL" problem. It's getting bad. Here we have a *free* OS, with a
*free* office suite and other great, powerful software for *free*, and
some people (who contribute nothing towards Linux) whine about it.

> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer

Interesting article. I still can't get over the fact that there was
actually once a computer company called Wang. :)

Michael


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Jul 20 01:36:51 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (eaglecoach at wwnet.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 01:36:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [NEWBIE] usb serial port/LG VX6100/BitPim
Message-ID: <20070720053651.2E70D20AB02@starfox.local>

cellphone users,

I'm trying to access my cellphone (LG VX6100) data.

As Tony advised earlier, I'm unsuccessfully trying to use bitpim,
but would appreciate any help understanding what is failing and what
I can do to correct it.

My current best approach is
1. Discover vendor and product numbers for usb serial data cable.
   A. Insert data cable
   B. Read /proc/bus/usb/devices
      ...
      T:  Bus=01 Lev=01 Prnt=01 Port=00 Cnt=01 Dev#=  5 Spd=1.5 MxCh= 0
      D:  Ver= 1.00 Cls=ff(vend.) Sub=ff Prot=00 MxPS= 8 #Cfgs=  1
      P:  Vendor=0df7 ProdID=0800 Rev= 0.00
      S:  Manufacturer=MobileAction Technology Inc.
      S:  Product=USB Data Cable
      C:* #Ifs= 1 Cfg#= 1 Atr=80 MxPwr=100mA
      I:  If#= 0 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=ff(vend.) Sub=ff Prot=ff Driver=(none)
      E:  Ad=81(I) Atr=03(Int.) MxPS=   8 Ivl=10ms
      E:  Ad=02(O) Atr=03(Int.) MxPS=   8 Ivl=10ms
      ---- /proc/bus/usb/devices ----
2. Disconnect data dable
3. Load kernel module using above product and vendor numbers
   A. bash> /sbin/modprobe usbserial vendor=0x0df7 product=0800
   B. Confirm insertion
      bash> ls -ltr /dev
            ...
            crw-rw----  1 root   root  189,   4 2007-07-19 13:29 usbdev1.5
            ...
4. Start bitpim-1.0.0
   bash> bitpim
   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   !!!! The following error appears on the command line and in a dialog !!!!
   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   setting windows/ConfigDialog to position 231, 163
   database integrity check
   database integrity check complete
   setting windows/CalendarEntryEditor to size 532 x 399
   Exception in getting image file - you can't do that!
   Traceback (most recent call last):
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 578, in OpenFile
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 608, in _OpenFile
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 625, in OpenBPImageFile
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 651, in BPFSImageFile
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 479, in ScaleImageIntoBitmap
     File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx/_gdi.py", lin
e 715, in EmptyBitmap
   PyAssertionError: C++ assertion "depth == visual->depth" failed at ../src/gtk
/bitmap.cpp(292) in Create(): invalid bitmap depth

   Variables by last 8 frames, innermost last

   Frame OpenFile in src/wallpaper.py at line 582
               res =  None
              self =  <wallpaper.BPFSHandler; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxP
yFileSystemHandler *'
          location =  u'bpimage:ringer.png;width=24;height=24'
        filesystem =  <wx._core.FileSystem; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxFil
eSystem *' at 0x8a0dcb

   Frame _OpenFile in src/wallpaper.py at line 608
             proto =  u'bpimage'
              self =  <wallpaper.BPFSHandler; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxP
yFileSystemHandler *'
             param =  u'height=24'
                 p =  Keys ['height', 'width']
                      {'width': 24, 'height': 24}
                 r =  u'ringer.png'
            params =  [u'width=24', u'height=24']
             value =  u'24'
               key =  'height'
        filesystem =  <wx._core.FileSystem; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxFil
eSystem *' at 0x8a0dcb
                 x =  6
          location =  u'bpimage:ringer.png;width=24;height=24'

   Frame OpenBPImageFile in src/wallpaper.py at line 625
              name =  u'ringer.png'
                 f =  u'/usr/lib/BitPim-1.0.0/resources/ringer.png'
               res =  None
              self =  <wallpaper.BPFSHandler; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxP
yFileSystemHandler *'
                si =  (33060, 1844228L, 770L, 0, 0, 831L, 1181617242, 1184651496
)
          location =  u'bpimage:ringer.png;width=24;height=24'
            kwargs =  Keys ['height', 'width']
                      {'width': 24, 'height': 24}

   Frame BPFSImageFile in src/wallpaper.py at line 651
              name =  u'/usr/lib/BitPim-1.0.0/resources/ringer.png'
               img =  <wx._core.Image; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxImage *'
 at 0x8aec6b0> >
             width =  24
            height =  24
           bgcolor =  None
          location =  u'bpimage:ringer.png;width=24;height=24'
            valign =  'center'
         fshandler =  <wallpaper.BPFSHandler; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxP
yFileSystemHandler *'

   Frame ScaleImageIntoBitmap in src/wallpaper.py at line 479
           bgcolor =  None
          usewidth =  24
         useheight =  24
               img =  <wx._core.Image; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxImage *'
 at 0x8aec6b0> >
            valign =  'center'

   Frame EmptyBitmap in /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx/
_gdi.py at line 715
              args =  (24, 24, 24)
            kwargs =  Keys []
                      {}


5. I've tried each of the following on alternate attempts
   A. Typing the "help" or "Abort BitPim" buttons in the debug dialog HANGS.
   B. Typing the "Continue" button causes the BitPim main dialog to appear.

6. I've started the "Tour", but get no farther following the instructions than
   "What do I do first?".

7. When I type the "Find Phone" button, it takes several seconds and reports
   "No phone detected/recognized.  Run settings?"

8. I have tried setting the Phone Type manually to LG-VX6100 .

9. When I type the "Browse" button it takes several seconds and reports
   "You do not have any com/serial ports on your system."

TIA,
--
Dr. B


-- 
"My private keys are mine alone,
 My public keys to many shown.
 My secret keys with some are shared,
 But with only one message paird."
	-- Dr. Robert Meier 2000, excerpt from Open-PGP Polka


From ebradley01 at wowway.com  Fri Jul 20 09:52:13 2007
From: ebradley01 at wowway.com (ebradley01 at wowway.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:52:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1184910486.4645.mdlug@mdlug.org>
References: <mailman.9.1184910486.4645.mdlug@mdlug.org>
Message-ID: <20070720134349.M18819@wowway.com>

Heck, I was under the assumption that having a room like this was in the
packaged deal that came along with being an uber-millionaire.  Hell, I'd
specify it in my contract before accepting the C_O position.  :D


evan 

--
"The road of life is rocky, and you may stumble too.  So while you point your
finger; someone else is judging you."  --Bob Marley


From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul 20 14:27:44 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 11:27:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] toyota contract - Ann Arbor
Message-ID: <334072.27149.qm@web81807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Has anyone else been called about this?   I was.   A contract house (Ajilon) submitted my resume, and Toyota seemed interested.   So then I was asked to fill out this laundry list of years of experience on all these different things.    I had too many "zeroes" so I told Ajilon to forget it.    I keep getting called about it from other job shops though so I don't think they've filled it.    I still have all the info so if you want to know more, email me off list.     It was Unix, Linux, CAE support.   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070720/50d5dfa0/attachment.html>

From gib at juno.com  Fri Jul 20 15:52:12 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:52:12 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] toyota contract - Ann Arbor
Message-ID: <20070720.155212.24030.1@webmail21.lax.untd.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070720/75e83157/attachment.ksh>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070720/75e83157/attachment.html>

From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Jul 20 16:09:08 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:09:08 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [NEWBIE] usb serial port/LG VX6100/BitPim
In-Reply-To: <20070720053651.2E70D20AB02@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E63@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com

>    B. Read /proc/bus/usb/devices

>       P:  Vendor=0df7 ProdID=0800 Rev= 0.00
>       S:  Manufacturer=MobileAction Technology Inc.
>       S:  Product=USB Data Cable

 Seems odd that a Motorola phone would show up with this vendor and product ID.
Perhaps the data cable is an active rather than passive link, and it's not fully
compatible?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 "...seek out the insects. There, you will see a state of warfare
 which has existed for millions of years with never a truce. Man,
  despite enormous shortcomings, is nevertheless possessed of a
  greater number of kindly impulses than all the other beings..."
                      - Roger Zelazny
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 20 17:56:36 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:56:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:50:35 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-20, Monsieur Paul a ecrit:
> > 	This is an interesting piece on what a computer means to
> > a professional writer-- in 1982. Its not a 'in my day' nostalgia
> > thing, but rather an article written in 1982 with some amusing
> > and ironic historical perspective, and most of all a refreshing
> > enthusiasm for computing for the ordinary man.

/snip

> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer  

Great article, I was grinning all the way through.  Thanks for
sharing.  I was especially struck by how *expensive* those systems were
back then.  And think about it -- a Linux distro running off a
single floppy disk, no X-Windows, armed with nothing  beyond the GNU
utils and console-mode Emacs could do more, and more easily, than the
multi-thousand-dollars word-processing systems of that day.

Regards,
Matthew


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Jul 20 19:53:26 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:53:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-20, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
>> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer
>
> And think about it -- a Linux distro running off a
> single floppy disk, no X-Windows, armed with nothing  beyond the GNU
> utils and console-mode Emacs could do more, and more easily, than the
> multi-thousand-dollars word-processing systems of that day.

Hmm, I doubt you'd be able to put all the GNU utils + Linux kernel on a
single floppy (let alone Emacs :)). But I agree with the gist of what
you're saying, that a very minimal Linux system could do (for *free*)
even more than those old expensive "word processing" apps could do.

In fact, a barebones Linux system, without X, but with Emacs, the GNU
utils, groff and ghostscript, even today puts a modern "word processor"
like MS Word to shame. The postscript output produced by groff is far
superior to the ugly, cheap-looking stuff Word produces. Throw in LaTeX,
and you'd have even more options for producing documents with a high-
quality appearance.

It's a shame that knowing how to use groff and/or LaTeX seems to be a
lost art, and an unknown one to many people new to Linux. I think most
Linux newbs would be lost on such a minimal Linux system. Without X (and
OpenOffice) they'd probably have a hard time figuring out how to "word
process". :(

Michael


From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 00:10:36 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:10:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070721001036.8ae8a49d.akalten@comcast.net>

Yes,

The whole idea behind the modern WYSIWYG interface is to obviate the
need for any understanding of digital concepts.  A person without
training or education in computer principles should be able to sit
down and immediately compose worthwhile documents on a word processor
by relying on only the basic typewriter analogy.  This is what some
would call the "empowerment" of the ordinary person through the seeming
magic of advanced interfaces. 

But such a lack of understanding easily causes problems outside
of the carefully controlled areas.  Most computer users do not even
understand the concept of a carriage return character.  When these
people compose email, for example, they rely on the default word
wrapping feature to format their messages.  The recipient, however,
often will see a ridiculously long and unformatted string of text
that is devoid of carriage returns.  When dealing with pure text,
the invisible  carriage return (or line feed in the case of UNIX)
is absolutely essential, but it remains totally beyond the grasp
of the uninitiated. 

The effects of a lack of basic computer knowledge show up everywhere.
I received an email recently which included a one-page MS Word file.
The size of the attachment was nearly ONE MEGABYTE.  The sender
apparently was not aware of the fact that MS Word will embed font
information if non-standard fonts are utilized, and this document
contained a strange font.  It is simply not proper behavior to flood
someones mailbox with a very large file, but this sender had no
knowledge of his error.

Word processing began as simple text mark up, and so it remains. Groff
and LaTex still retain the full character of a mark-up language but
the WYSIWYG word processor conceals this aspect behind the graphical
interface.  The mark-up code can still be demonstrated, however, in
both Corel WordPerfect and MS Word by setting certain internal options. 

(HTML, of course, is just another mark-up language.)

Text mark-up, also sometimes referred to as post-formatting, requires
the ability to mentally picture what the final document will look like
before it is actually produced.  Usually, this prediction is fairly
straightforward to make, but in a lot of cases surprises can ensue. The
projected image will fail to correspond exactly with the actual final
result.  The discrepancy may not always be terribly significant but it
some cases it can be disastrous.  This is one strong argument, I
believe, in favor of the WYSIWYG interface.  Although I can appreciate
the simplicity and purity of groff or LaTex, there are a lot of times
when I greatly prefer the WYSIWYG software.  



From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 21 00:45:57 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:45:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:53:26 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-20, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> >> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer
> >
> > And think about it -- a Linux distro running off a
> > single floppy disk, no X-Windows, armed with nothing  beyond the GNU
> > utils and console-mode Emacs could do more, and more easily, than
> > the multi-thousand-dollars word-processing systems of that day.
> 
> Hmm, I doubt you'd be able to put all the GNU utils + Linux kernel on
> a single floppy (let alone Emacs :)). But I agree with the gist of
> what you're saying, that a very minimal Linux system could do (for
> *free*) even more than those old expensive "word processing" apps
> could do.

Ohhh yeah, you're probably right about the size.  I was forgetting
those old boot-and-root floppy pairs...  but I'll bet it could work on
two. May be desirable to substitute a smaller-footprint Emacs-like
editor.

> In fact, a barebones Linux system, without X, but with Emacs, the GNU
> utils, groff and ghostscript, even today puts a modern "word
> processor" like MS Word to shame. The postscript output produced by
> groff is far superior to the ugly, cheap-looking stuff Word produces.
> Throw in LaTeX, and you'd have even more options for producing
> documents with a high- quality appearance.
> 
> It's a shame that knowing how to use groff and/or LaTeX seems to be a
> lost art, and an unknown one to many people new to Linux. I think most
> Linux newbs would be lost on such a minimal Linux system. Without X
> (and OpenOffice) they'd probably have a hard time figuring out how to
> "word process". :(

I'm not sure I agree here.  I don't know how to use groff and/or LaTeX
and I am not new to Linux at all - it's just never been something I
needed - but I tend to think that typesetting (and indeed any visual
design task) is one area where GUI and WYSIWYG (or WYSIWYM a la Lyx -
say that three times fast with marbles in your mouth) have become too
valuable.  Mind, I'm not saying that office software is exactly in a
good state... I think it's a mess, including open-source programs like
OOo, but a mess that is easier to use then the well-designed but
GUI-less tools you mention.

A program that doesn't get the attention it deserves is LyX.  But the
practical reality is that most people have neither the time nor the
inclination to learn more then one such system, and nothing that cannot
interchange documents with Word can be that one - sadly.

Further thoughts?

Matthew


From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 01:01:20 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:01:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <20070721010120.8a50ce0a.akalten@comcast.net>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:45:57 -0400
"M. D. Krauss" <zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> I'm not sure I agree here.  I don't know how to use groff and/or LaTeX
> and I am not new to Linux at all - it's just never been something I
> needed - but I tend to think that typesetting (and indeed any visual
> design task) is one area where GUI and WYSIWYG (or WYSIWYM a la Lyx -
> say that three times fast with marbles in your mouth) have become too
> valuable.  Mind, I'm not saying that office software is exactly in a
> good state... I think it's a mess, including open-source programs like
> OOo, but a mess that is easier to use then the well-designed but
> GUI-less tools you mention.
> 

Everybody mentions either groff/LaTex or OpenOffice.  But a very
convenient and quick method for producing documents based on simple
text files is enscript, or its cousin a2ps.  With these programs
there is no complicated mark up to learn.  Just produce the text
file and run it through enscript/a2ps.  With a little practice very
suitable letters or other simple documents are a snap.



From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 03:45:49 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 03:45:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-21, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> Hmm, I doubt you'd be able to put all the GNU utils + Linux kernel on
>> a single floppy (let alone Emacs :)).
>
> Ohhh yeah, you're probably right about the size.  I was forgetting
> those old boot-and-root floppy pairs...  but I'll bet it could work on
> two. May be desirable to substitute a smaller-footprint Emacs-like
> editor.

I like the joe editor for that. Just a single small binary.

> I'm not sure I agree here.  I don't know how to use groff and/or LaTeX
> and I am not new to Linux at all - it's just never been something I
> needed - but I tend to think that typesetting (and indeed any visual
> design task) is one area where GUI and WYSIWYG (or WYSIWYM a la Lyx -
> say that three times fast with marbles in your mouth) have become too
> valuable.

I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using the
WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and they often
don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the worst at that, it
always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what I want to do, despite
me telling it to do something else. I now only use things like Word when
I have to put something in that format. I use groff for most documents,
and LaTeX for a few things groff can't do, all put into PDF format.

I totally disagree that the WYSIWYG apps are better or even easier.
Getting correct formatting can be a nightmare in those programs.
Things like groff and LaTeX handle all that for you, I think they
are definitely worth learning. For example, save the following text
between the dashed lines in a file called letter.tex, then run
this command: pdflatex letter.tex
This will produce a letter.pdf file, open it and see how everything
is formatted for you.

---------------cut here ----------------------------
\documentclass{letter}
\usepackage[letterpaper]{hyperref}
\begin{document}
\begin{letter}{Mr. Joe Smith\\1234 Main St.\\Anytown, MI 48123}
\address{Bob Linux\\666 Torvalds Rd \#69\\Mytown, MI 48456}
\signature{Bob Linux}
\opening{Dear Joe,}
This is my very first time using \LaTeX. I definitely like it. I will be
using it much more in the future. In fact, I plan to redo my r\'esum\`e
in it.

I hope you like the way this looks!
\closing{Sincerely,}
\end{letter}
\end{document}
---------------cut here--------------------------------

I honestly don't think that is too hard.

For anyone interested in learning LaTeX, a good intoduction is here:
http://tug.ctan.org/info/lshort/english/lshort.pdf

For learning groff/troff, O'Reilly has a free book available:
http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/utp/UnixTextProcessing.pdf

> A program that doesn't get the attention it deserves is LyX.

I tried using LyX, but the interface was confusing to me, so I stayed
with editing LaTeX in plain old Emacs, which has a good LaTeX mode.

> But the
> practical reality is that most people have neither the time nor the
> inclination to learn more then one such system, and nothing that cannot
> interchange documents with Word can be that one - sadly.

I think that's changing. PDF is becoming more widely used, and the new
ODF may become popular. I don't think the Word .doc format has as big
a stranglehold as it used to, and I see its grip weakening even more.

Michael


From set at pobox.com  Sat Jul 21 05:08:18 2007
From: set at pobox.com (Paul)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 05:08:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <20070721090818.GB5909@squish.home.loc>

"M. D. Krauss" <zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com>, on Sat Jul 21, 2007 [12:45:57 AM] said:
> A program that doesn't get the attention it deserves is LyX.  But the
> practical reality is that most people have neither the time nor the
> inclination to learn more then one such system, and nothing that cannot
> interchange documents with Word can be that one - sadly.
> 
> Further thoughts?
> 

	Hi;

	Yeah; that you have all gone off the message of
the OP;) People who lack time and inclination to learn are not very
interesting. Effectiveness of toolset and religiosity of applications
are far less compelling than the love of tools in general; And the fact
that we are awash in buttloads of amazing and capable tools, for *free*.
	Ive done woodworking with a hacksaw, broken into my own car with
a packing strap I found on the street and seen things done with a hammer
and cold chisel that would make a machinist cry. But in those instances
there wasnt much choice.
	Now we have incredible ammounts of options. What route
creative people take through that embarassment of riches might be
almost as interesting as what they end up with, but arguing about
which is the most efficient path is missing a larger picture.


Paul
set at pobox.com
	
	


From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 11:40:45 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:40:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 03:45:49 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 
> I totally disagree that the WYSIWYG apps are better or even easier.
> Getting correct formatting can be a nightmare in those programs.
> Things like groff and LaTeX handle all that for you, I think they
> are definitely worth learning. For example, save the following text
> between the dashed lines in a file called letter.tex, then run
> this command: pdflatex letter.tex
> This will produce a letter.pdf file, open it and see how everything
> is formatted for you.
> 

Sure.  That's easy.

But what good is an official letter without a bona fide signature?

To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.  But
depending upon the length of your name and the intended size of
the image, you may be greatly surprised -- and continually frustrated
 -- over where LaTex has placed it.  More than likely you will have
to undergo an extensive trial and error period of using \vspace{}
and \hspace{} to position the image exactly where you want it.
You may have to even override the built-in margins to avoid having
your signature unintentionally placed all by itself on the next
page (a fact that won't be revealed until you make the final
print).

I will agree that once everything is finally honed to perfection
then the same structure can be used repeatedly, but you can never
completely drop your guard.

Also, if you want to use a different letter format, then, unless
you can find a suitable template at ctan.org, you are stuck.
Composing your own TeX template is no labor of love (at least it
wouldn't be for me).

A WYSIWYG tool can leave all that trouble in the dust.



From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 12:13:30 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:13:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721090818.GB5909@squish.home.loc>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<20070721090818.GB5909@squish.home.loc>
Message-ID: <20070721121330.78924cc9.akalten@comcast.net>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 05:08:18 -0400
Paul <set at pobox.com> wrote:

>
> Effectiveness of toolset and religiosity of applications
> are far less compelling than the love of tools in general;
>

Some would say that the definition of humanness is toolmaking.

The greatest period of inventiveness (i.e. toolmaking) in
human history just happened to occur in the United States
of America between roughly 1850 and 1950.  During that period,
everything that we associate with modern civilization was pulled
from the magic hat of American creativity (I am not being
chauvinistic; I am only stating the facts.).

But, as the dates indicate, that period is over.  No longer,
it seems, is the social consciousness so unconcernedly receptive
to new and vigorous ideas.  Those who make an attempt at change
will more than likely be met with disbelief and even contempt.
The failure of Linux and Open Source, which are beyond doubt quite
innovative concepts, to capture the spirit of most people may be
the best indication of this growing cultural complacency.

Contemporary people are afraid of change.  Even in such mundane
activities as shopping they will avoid the fresh new entrepreneur
and seek only the well established venues.  Woe unto the foolish
investor who decides to back the creative maverick.  The smart
money flows only to the well worn ranks of the status quo.



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Sat Jul 21 12:20:10 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:20:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: CAE/UNIX Administrator Opportunity]
Message-ID: <46A2323A.905@sbcglobal.net>

I don't have the laundry list of requirements handy at the moment, sorry.  
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Matt LePage <mlepage at gta.jobs>
Subject: CAE/UNIX Administrator Opportunity
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:15:48 -0400
Size: 4377
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070721/51a654ee/attachment.mht>

From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 16:15:49 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> Things like groff and LaTeX handle all that for you, I think they
>> are definitely worth learning. For example, save the following text
>> between the dashed lines in a file called letter.tex, then run
>> this command: pdflatex letter.tex
>> This will produce a letter.pdf file, open it and see how everything
>> is formatted for you.
>
> Sure.  That's easy.
>
> But what good is an official letter without a bona fide signature?

Well, I have this crazy practice of putting my signature on letters
by printing the letter out and then, using this thing called a "pen",
writing my signature by hand on the letter. ;)

> To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.

Huh? First of all, an electronic "John Hancock" is *not* a "bona fide
signature". Where did you ever get that notion? Whether it's done by
using a cursive font or by scanning a handwritten signature into an
image file, that electronic version is not your legal signature. In
fact, putting such a thing in an electronically submitted document
file just makes you look silly, because there's no need for it. I've
never seen it required anywhere. Seriously, doing that is the kind of
thing that clueless lusers do because they think it's "kewl". I am
shocked and dismayed that a user who considers himself experienced and
knowledgeable would even think of doing such a silly thing.

Secondly, it's not even true that if you did include such an image file
that it would have to be in eps format. With pdflatex, you can include
png, jpg and gif image files. They don't even get converted to eps,
since PDF does not support eps natively.

As far as different letter formats in LaTeX, it's fairly easy to either
modify the default settings or use alternate templates. The defaults
have always been fine for me and the people I've sent letters to.

Michael


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Sat Jul 21 20:43:00 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R Kannan)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:43:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
Message-ID: <1185064979.23268.13.camel@hppavilion.kannanhome>

All,

I upgraded from firefox 1.5.? to firefox.2.0.0.5 and installed the
Macromedia Flashplayer 9.0 plugin. I had flashblock installed with the
old version but when I try to install it from 

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/433

it gave me an error saying..

installLocation has no properties
Error: installLocation has no properties
file:///usr/lib/firefox/components/nsExtensionManager.js
Line: 3940

Anyone knows how to get around this? I did not have a problem installing
the same plugin with the old version.

TIA for any help.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070721/1ade8ddb/attachment.html>

From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 22 01:59:21 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 01:59:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com> <469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>
	<a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707212259u37e7eb69h9f698e0f1f970474@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, G Balaji <gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/18/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:

>> Amiga (yea that again) uses file headers in that fashion from the very
>> start.  Learning to add file extensions was something I had to do once I
>> started using DOS based systems.

> I am not familiar with Amiga. In Amiga, how were files associated with
> applications? Was the operating system aware of the
> file-header-application association?

There was NO direct association between files and applications in
AmigaOS through at least v2.x-- the data-file icons had a field that
held the application-name associated with that file.  This meant that
to change the default application for a file-type the user had to
track down each file of that type and edit the icon's field to reflect
the new app.  I got around this by using the very-powerful "assign"
command.  The icon's field would contain something like "jpg:" for a
JPG file, and the startup-sequence would contain the command (for
example) "assign jpeg-view jpg:" where "jpeg-view" was the (example)
program used for viewing such files. If I wanted to change the default
viewer, I edited the startup-sequence.  This may have changed for
later versions.

-- Mikey


From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Jul 22 02:13:38 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 02:13:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707212259u37e7eb69h9f698e0f1f970474@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
	<469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>	<a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380707212259u37e7eb69h9f698e0f1f970474@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A2F592.3040300@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> On 7/18/07, G Balaji <gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> On 7/18/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>>     
>
>   
>>> Amiga (yea that again) uses file headers in that fashion from the very
>>> start.  Learning to add file extensions was something I had to do once I
>>> started using DOS based systems.
>>>       
>
>   
>> I am not familiar with Amiga. In Amiga, how were files associated with
>> applications? Was the operating system aware of the
>> file-header-application association?
>>     
>
> There was NO direct association between files and applications in
> AmigaOS through at least v2.x-- the data-file icons had a field that
> held the application-name associated with that file.  This meant that
> to change the default application for a file-type the user had to
> track down each file of that type and edit the icon's field to reflect
> the new app.  I got around this by using the very-powerful "assign"
> command.  The icon's field would contain something like "jpg:" for a
> JPG file, and the startup-sequence would contain the command (for
> example) "assign jpeg-view jpg:" where "jpeg-view" was the (example)
> program used for viewing such files. If I wanted to change the default
> viewer, I edited the startup-sequence.  This may have changed for
> later versions.
>   

I didn't use icons for most files.  In fact saved them as "no icon".  I
would strip file names in mass and dump them all in one directory. 
Applications such as DOpus, Multiview, and ImageFX had no problem
telling them apart and opening them correctly.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 22 03:38:51 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 03:38:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:

> > To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> > an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> > that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.
> 
> Huh? First of all, an electronic "John Hancock" is *not* a "bona fide
> signature". Where did you ever get that notion? Whether it's done by
> using a cursive font or by scanning a handwritten signature into an
> image file, that electronic version is not your legal signature. In
> fact, putting such a thing in an electronically submitted document
> file just makes you look silly, because there's no need for it. I've
> never seen it required anywhere. Seriously, doing that is the kind of
> thing that clueless lusers do because they think it's "kewl". I am
> shocked and dismayed that a user who considers himself experienced and
> knowledgeable would even think of doing such a silly thing.

I think this is a fairly easily generalizable example.  The point
Kalten was making (left unquoted) was that it is hard to position an
image where you want it, not that it is hard to include an image of
a signature.  I don't know if that point is true - you
didn't address it - but it is valid.

Nonetheless, I happen to know that Kmart and Meijer both accept certain
documents from manufacturers and distributors through email with just
this kind of digital "signature". It may be asinine, but it is true.

Matthew


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 22 03:56:00 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 03:56:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 03:45:49 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-21, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:

/snip

> > I'm not sure I agree here.  I don't know how to use groff and/or
> > LaTeX and I am not new to Linux at all - it's just never been
> > something I needed - but I tend to think that typesetting (and
> > indeed any visual design task) is one area where GUI and WYSIWYG
> > (or WYSIWYM a la Lyx - say that three times fast with marbles in
> > your mouth) have become too valuable.
> 
> I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using
> the WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and
> they often don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the worst
> at that, it always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what I want
> to do, despite me telling it to do something else. I now only use
> things like Word when I have to put something in that format. I use
> groff for most documents, and LaTeX for a few things groff can't do,
> all put into PDF format.

Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that
make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.  OOo
Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the end of the
day, though, I've never seen an office suite that actually impresses me.



> 
> I totally disagree that the WYSIWYG apps are better or even easier.
> Getting correct formatting can be a nightmare in those programs.
> Things like groff and LaTeX handle all that for you, I think they
> are definitely worth learning. For example, save the following text
> between the dashed lines in a file called letter.tex, then run
> this command: pdflatex letter.tex

/snipped example

> I honestly don't think that is too hard.

No it is not.  If that is the document you wanted.

I will certainly not argue that LaTeX isn't better for some purposes.
However, out there in the real world, some people have to deal with
ever-changing format requirements, bosses and co-workers looking over
their shoulders and nit-picking details in real-time, and producing
documents that are more like a flier or spec-sheet than a standardized
letter, article, or book, and my impression is that this is where LaTeX
and relatives fall short.

I guess it depends on if you are looking at your task as creating
textual content, and would like the formatting to be handled
for you in a nice way; or looking at it as creating visual content, and
would like to have more control over the composition.  For most people,
I suppose, it is a little of each.

/snipped links to educational resources

> > A program that doesn't get the attention it deserves is LyX.
> 
> I tried using LyX, but the interface was confusing to me, so I stayed
> with editing LaTeX in plain old Emacs, which has a good LaTeX mode.

From what I've seen of it, LyX has a very cool interface.  Takes some
getting used to, though. 

> 
> > But the
> > practical reality is that most people have neither the time nor the
> > inclination to learn more then one such system, and nothing that
> > cannot interchange documents with Word can be that one - sadly.
> 
> I think that's changing. PDF is becoming more widely used, and the new
> ODF may become popular. I don't think the Word .doc format has as big
> a stranglehold as it used to, and I see its grip weakening even more.

PDF is irrelevant - you can't pass documents around and edit them with
PDF effectively.  ODF is showing signs of breaking the .doc
stranglehold, and I hope it does - but so what? A program still has to
be able to interchange documents well with Word, even if Word has been
forced to support ODF.  It is a fundamentally different document
model, no?

Regards,
Matthew


From danno at umich.edu  Sun Jul 22 12:11:44 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:11:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>

as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.

proving someone actually "signed" something electronically is another
story.


On Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 03:38:51AM -0400, M. D. Krauss wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
> Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> 
> > > To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> > > an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> > > that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.
> > 
> > Huh? First of all, an electronic "John Hancock" is *not* a "bona fide
> > signature". Where did you ever get that notion? Whether it's done by
> > using a cursive font or by scanning a handwritten signature into an
> > image file, that electronic version is not your legal signature. In
> > fact, putting such a thing in an electronically submitted document
> > file just makes you look silly, because there's no need for it. I've
> > never seen it required anywhere. Seriously, doing that is the kind of
> > thing that clueless lusers do because they think it's "kewl". I am
> > shocked and dismayed that a user who considers himself experienced and
> > knowledgeable would even think of doing such a silly thing.
> 
> I think this is a fairly easily generalizable example.  The point
> Kalten was making (left unquoted) was that it is hard to position an
> image where you want it, not that it is hard to include an image of
> a signature.  I don't know if that point is true - you
> didn't address it - but it is valid.
> 
> Nonetheless, I happen to know that Kmart and Meijer both accept certain
> documents from manufacturers and distributors through email with just
> this kind of digital "signature". It may be asinine, but it is true.
> 
> Matthew
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 22 19:19:10 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 19:19:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] "Digital" signatures
In-Reply-To: <20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20070722190038.02925b40@pop.gmail.com>

At 12:11 PM 7/22/07, Dan Pritts wrote:
>as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
>signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.

     I hope that it would mean a PGP signature, which is designed to 
as much as possible
eliminate the possibility that someone other than the key owner 
signed it instead.

     I have to agree with Michael Corral here. The purpose of a 
"signature" as I understand it
is to authenticate the document as being written by, or at least 
authorized by, the person
signing the document. At least in theory, handwriting is supposed to 
be an identifying
characteristic of a person, so that a different individual "signing" 
a given name to a document
should be detectable.

     The trouble with a Jpeg of a signature is that anyone in 
possession of a document with
the target signature, or even a copy, can create such a thing for the 
target signature
himself. Thus it is impossible to prove whether or not someone 
"signed" a document by
the presence of such an image. If the Congress actually passed a law 
allowing a *photograph
of a signature* to count as valid, they really *are* idiots not 
worthy of our obedience or trust.


> > > 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> >
> > > > To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> > > > an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> > > > that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.

     Personally I prefer to think that Monsieur Kalten was joking.

----

- Drew.



From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Jul 22 21:40:53 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:40:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222114420.2878@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
>>> To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
>>> an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
>>> that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.
>>
> I think this is a fairly easily generalizable example.  The point
> Kalten was making (left unquoted) was that it is hard to position an
> image where you want it, not that it is hard to include an image of
> a signature.  I don't know if that point is true

No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg

It took me about 1 minute to figure out how to put that signature
image in the letter example I gave the other day (I made the signature
itself in the Gimp - you can tell I'm no graphic artist. :) ).

> - you didn't address it - but it is valid.

No, not really. ;)

> Nonetheless, I happen to know that Kmart and Meijer both accept certain
> documents from manufacturers and distributors through email with just
> this kind of digital "signature". It may be asinine, but it is true.

Well, I'll be sure to create an "M.D. Krauss" electronic signature and
sign you up for lots of mailings from Kmart and Meijer. ;)

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Jul 22 22:34:34 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:34:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222153050.2920@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that
> make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.  OOo
> Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the end of the
> day, though, I've never seen an office suite that actually impresses me.

I've always liked Applixware. I actually bought the Linux version
several years ago. I'd use that if I had to use an office suite.

> /snipped example
>
>> I honestly don't think that is too hard.
>
> No it is not.  If that is the document you wanted.

Well, I left all my examples of documents you don't want on my other PC.:)

> I will certainly not argue that LaTeX isn't better for some purposes.
> However, out there in the real world,

Oh oh...

> some people have to deal with
> ever-changing format requirements, bosses and co-workers looking over
> their shoulders and nit-picking details in real-time, and producing
> documents that are more like a flier or spec-sheet than a standardized
> letter, article, or book, and my impression is that this is where LaTeX
> and relatives fall short.

Hmm, I don't know how you got that impression. In fact, LaTeX is much
better for that sort of thing than office suites.

> I guess it depends on if you are looking at your task as creating
> textual content, and would like the formatting to be handled
> for you in a nice way; or looking at it as creating visual content, and
> would like to have more control over the composition.  For most people,
> I suppose, it is a little of each.

LaTeX excels at both. It's not just for nice text formatting. Its
graphics capabilities are pretty powerful. Right now I'm using LaTeX
to write a book, with lots of graphics, many of them fairly complex
and all created by LaTeX. And importing external graphics is no problem.

> From what I've seen of it, LyX has a very cool interface.  Takes some
> getting used to, though.

LyX is probably the best free GUI frontend to LaTeX I've seen, though
I think there are some commercial ones. I just feel more comfortable
editing LaTeX code myself instead of letting LyX do it.

> PDF is irrelevant - you can't pass documents around and edit them with
> PDF effectively.

Every "real world" place I've worked at had the full Acrobat suite so that
you could edit PDFs (which is the format many places standardized on for
official docs). Actually, "passing documents around and editing them" is
usually frowned upon in large corporations that follow some sort of
Quality Management System (e.g. CMMI). They don't want lots of different
versions of documents edited by different people floating around. You're
supposed to have a Document Owner (or Maintainer) for each document, and
that person does the editing. Other people can email that person or submit
a change request with their proposed changes to the document.

> ODF is showing signs of breaking the .doc
> stranglehold, and I hope it does - but so what? A program still has to
> be able to interchange documents well with Word, even if Word has been
> forced to support ODF.

Why? If ODF breaks the .doc stranglehold, then it'll be the other way
around: Word will have to do a good job of supporting ODF, or Word
will become even more irrelevant.

Michael


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 22 23:30:42 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:30:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222114420.2878@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222114420.2878@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070722233042.113659a5@tessa.long>

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:40:53 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> > Michael Corral wrote:
> >> 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> >>> To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> >>> an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> >>> that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.
> >>
> > I think this is a fairly easily generalizable example.  The point
> > Kalten was making (left unquoted) was that it is hard to position an
> > image where you want it, not that it is hard to include an image of
> > a signature.  I don't know if that point is true
> 
> No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg
> 
> It took me about 1 minute to figure out how to put that signature
> image in the letter example I gave the other day (I made the signature
> itself in the Gimp - you can tell I'm no graphic artist. :) ).

I would like to see how, please.  This is interesting.

Thanks,
Matthew


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 23 03:04:54 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 03:04:54 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222153050.2920@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222153050.2920@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070723030454.182455bb@tessa.long>

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:34:34 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:

> > some people have to deal with
> > ever-changing format requirements, bosses and co-workers looking
> > over their shoulders and nit-picking details in real-time, and
> > producing documents that are more like a flier or spec-sheet than a
> > standardized letter, article, or book, and my impression is that
> > this is where LaTeX and relatives fall short.
> 
> Hmm, I don't know how you got that impression. In fact, LaTeX is much
> better for that sort of thing than office suites.

Huh.  So if I were working on a spec sheet with LaTeX, and my
hypothetical boss came in and looked over my shoulder and said that
that graphic had to be a smidgen to the left... no not that far... or
maybe put it down below that text... I would have no problem making
those adjustments quickly in real time, so he could see the results?
Going to a text editor, changing numbers around, recompiling, and
loading the results in to a Postscript viewer does not cut it there.

I suspect you mean that LaTeX is better then office suites for the
types of documents I mentioned, not the situations.  In that, you may
be right - I don't know, but I am interested in learning.

> > I guess it depends on if you are looking at your task as creating
> > textual content, and would like the formatting to be handled
> > for you in a nice way; or looking at it as creating visual content,
> > and would like to have more control over the composition.  For most
> > people, I suppose, it is a little of each.
> 
> LaTeX excels at both. It's not just for nice text formatting. Its
> graphics capabilities are pretty powerful. Right now I'm using LaTeX
> to write a book, with lots of graphics, many of them fairly complex
> and all created by LaTeX. And importing external graphics is no
> problem.

Graphics actually created with LaTeX?  That is very interesting. Can
you give me an example of some LaTeX code to draw a picture?

> > From what I've seen of it, LyX has a very cool interface.  Takes
> > some getting used to, though.
> 
> LyX is probably the best free GUI frontend to LaTeX I've seen, though
> I think there are some commercial ones. I just feel more comfortable
> editing LaTeX code myself instead of letting LyX do it.

This I can definitely understand.  I hate WYSIWYG HTML editors.

> > PDF is irrelevant - you can't pass documents around and edit them
> > with PDF effectively.
> 
> Every "real world" place I've worked at had the full Acrobat suite so
> that you could edit PDFs (which is the format many places
> standardized on for official docs). Actually, "passing documents
> around and editing them" is usually frowned upon in large
> corporations that follow some sort of Quality Management System (e.g.
> CMMI). They don't want lots of different versions of documents edited
> by different people floating around. You're supposed to have a
> Document Owner (or Maintainer) for each document, and that person
> does the editing. Other people can email that person or submit a
> change request with their proposed changes to the document.

Sorry, not everyone has the luck to work at the same places as you.
Just about every retail chain operating in Michigan passes all sorts of
documents around, with reps, suppliers, manufacturers, everybody
getting in the game.  Small businesses rarely in my experience can
afford to follow "quality management systems".  Businesses that are
more concerned with getting good results then knowing who to blame when
stuff goes wrong pass documents around and edit them all the time.

Also, I have never had a chance to use the Acrobat suite, but it is my
understanding that even then, you can't really edit PDFs all that well.

> > ODF is showing signs of breaking the .doc
> > stranglehold, and I hope it does - but so what? A program still has
> > to be able to interchange documents well with Word, even if Word
> > has been forced to support ODF.
> 
> Why? If ODF breaks the .doc stranglehold, then it'll be the other way
> around: Word will have to do a good job of supporting ODF, or Word
> will become even more irrelevant.

Your statement is true, but doesn't seem to have anything to do with
the matter.  As long as Word *does* remain relevant, the fact that
people are creating and reading ODFs in Word instead of DOCs in Word
does not allow the average office worker to use software that is not
compatible with DOC or ODF.  Even if Word drops off the face of the
planet to be replaced with OOo, this would still be the case.  No?

Regards,
Matthew


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Jul 23 00:54:03 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 00:54:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] "Digital" signatures
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20070722190038.02925b40@pop.gmail.com>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <20070723045403.1DA7320AB03@starfox.local>

Drew, Dan, Michael

>>as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
>>signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.

> I hope that it would mean a PGP signature, which is designed to 
> as much as possible eliminate the possibility that someone other than the
> key owner signed it instead.

I believe you are referring to FIPS-186, (Federal Information Processing
Standards Publication 186) (http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/fip186.htm) .

FIPS-186 is identified by Open-PGP (RFC 2440) as signature algorithm 17 ,
which I believe is the default signature algorithm of gpg.

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Dr. B



From akalten at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 12:03:12 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:03:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>


> Huh? First of all, an electronic "John Hancock" is *not* a "bona fide
> signature". Where did you ever get that notion? Whether it's done by
> using a cursive font or by scanning a handwritten signature into an
> image file, that electronic version is not your legal signature. In
> fact, putting such a thing in an electronically submitted document
> file just makes you look silly, because there's no need for it. I've
> never seen it required anywhere.

LaTex is not ordinary used for electronic exhange (although like
anything else it certainly could be).  LaTeX is used to produce
a material piece of printed paper (think of it!) that is then
physically translocated through space and time (think ot it!)
to its final destination.  In this case, a signature file included
in the LaTex source would not be unreasonable.  It would save
the producer the extra task of manually signing his name on the
final product, and such time savings could be significant if LaTex
were being used to create a large batch of letters.

Silly?  Well, that is a matter of subjective taste.  It may not
be required, but in the business world a human signature does add
a professional touch to a letter document and that simple gesture
can often make a great difference.

After all, we are speaking about the world of business.  Protocol
is often paramount and much "silliness" continues to abound.  Let
us consider the neck tie.  What is the point of a neck tie?  It serves
no purpose.  It's function is purely decorative (depth psychology
aside) but its absence can be anathema in many business contexts.
One could argue that a neck tie is "silly" but that argument would
fall upon deaf ears in the business universe.

> No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg

The image is not positioned correctly.  It should be moved
over toward the left.  That's how a human being would do it.

Also, the signature is much too jagged.  That must be the result
of resizing.  You should always use potrace (potrace.sourceforge.net)
to make it smooth and natural.

Another thing, the size of the signature and the thickness of 
the individual characters is out of proportion with the text size.
Would a human being sign his name like that?  Only an awkward
child, perhaps.  Use a smaller, thinner signature or increase
the font size.



From akalten at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 12:37:32 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:37:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070723123732.34c88e89.akalten@comcast.net>

> No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg

Appearances can not only important, they can be decisive.

Let us consider further your image.

Why have you used a screen capture to produce this
image?  Ghostscript has drivers for pnm as well as
png that could have been used to produce the image
directly.

Also, the choice of the JPEG format is an extremely
poor choice.  Due to the nature of the compression
process, JPEG is not at all suitable for text (or
any other material that has such drastic edges).
PNG would have been the best choice, but if the 
concern is browswer compatibility, then GIF.

Based on this poorly wrought presentation, I would
have serious doubts about your overall competency.

I would come to the same conclusion if I were to
receive a document with no human signature included.

It may be irrational, but that's life.



From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 23 12:44:14 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:44:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older 
hardware?

So far I have tried SuSE Desktop 10.2, but I think I can get by with 
something much more lightweight.  Looked into "Damn Small Linux", but that 
seems to be the other extreme.  Any suggestions for something somewhere in 
the middle?

Thanks! 



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul 23 13:05:08 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:05:08 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E67@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael ORourke

> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older 
> hardware?

 Depends heavily on "how old". The key is RAM. Xubuntu, for example, uses
XFCE as its desktop environment, and can operate with 64MB RAM. But for a
while I had a PII-450 running normal Gnome Ubuntu (up to about 6.06 or os)
with 384MB RAM. Once I even booted it up with "mem=96M" and it worked okay.
Only one app could really be used at a time, but it was usable.

 I managed to get Debian + XFCE installed onto a P-133 laptop w/32MB RAM,
but I never really got it to be usable. I think if I could have squeezed
another 32MB in there it would have been okay.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                       (313) 227-2317

 If George Bush thinks "gay marriage" is such a big deal that he
 needs to muck with our Constitution, why didn't he push for it
             to be written into Iraq's new one?
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul 23 13:45:35 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:45:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/23/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
> hardware?

Stuff I've used by size/features:
Xubuntu
Puppy www.puppylinux.com
DeLi delili.lens.hl-users.com

There are lots of other Ubuntu-based distros with various system requirements:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ubuntu-based_distributions


From akalten at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 13:56:42 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:56:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070723135642.69e30465.akalten@comcast.net>

> I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using
> the WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and
> they often don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the worst
> at that, it always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what I want
> to do, despite me telling it to do something else. I now only use
> things like Word when I have to put something in that format. I use
> groff for most documents, and LaTeX for a few things groff can't do,
> all put into PDF format.

> Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that
> make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.  OOo
> Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the end of the
> day, though, I've never seen an office suite that actually impresses me.


This is all much too vague and general.  What, specifically, are
you, or were you, trying to accomplish?

The biggest mistake is to expect too much from a word processor.
They can only perform certain limited tasks.  They cannot accommodate
every possible whim of the human imagination.

Most often, the design of a document must conform to the
capabilities of a particular word processor and not vice
versa.  Thus, it becomes incumbent on the user to fully
understand what a given word processor can do and what it
cannot.  (How many casual users spend time studying the
voluminous software manuals?)

I also utilize accounting software and pay attention
to some of the relevant forums.  A lot of time people
will ask "How do I do this?" or "How do I do that?"
with a particular package.  The answer is that the
software was simply not designed to do those things
and the only solution is to find another tool.  These
people will then vilely curse the package for its
shortcomings and then leave, still hoping to somehow
find a way to "force" it to do their bidding.

Idiots.

Of course, the same applies to word processors and 
anything else.



From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Mon Jul 23 14:00:06 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:00:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

On 7/23/07 1:45 PM, "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/23/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
>> hardware?
> 
> Stuff I've used by size/features:
> Xubuntu
> Puppy www.puppylinux.com
> DeLi delili.lens.hl-users.com
> 
> There are lots of other Ubuntu-based distros with various system requirements:
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ubuntu-based_distributions
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

How about Gentoo?  Then you can decide how little/big you want your install
to be?  Biggest pain is that it is almost from scratch.

http://www.gentoo.org/



From danno at umich.edu  Mon Jul 23 14:35:15 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:35:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] "Digital" signatures
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20070722190038.02925b40@pop.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20070722190038.02925b40@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070723183515.GA4215@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 07:19:10PM -0400, Drew wrote:
> At 12:11 PM 7/22/07, Dan Pritts wrote:
> >as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
> >signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.
> 
>      I hope that it would mean a PGP signature, which is designed to 
> as much as possible
> eliminate the possibility that someone other than the key owner 
> signed it instead.

Nope.

according to wikipedia,

The term electronic signature has several meanings. In recent US law,
influenced by ABA committee white papers and the National Conference of
Commissioners on Uniform State Laws (NCCUSL), electronic signature means
"an electronic sound, symbol, or process, attached to or logically
associated with a record and executed or adopted by a person with the
intent to sign the record." This definition comes from the Uniform
Electronic Transactions Act or "UETA" released by NCCUSL in 1999. [1] The
U.S. ESign Act of 2000 [2] enacted on a federal level many of the core
concepts of UETA. 46 US states, the District of Columbia, and the US
Virgin Islands have enacted UETA. 



danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Mon Jul 23 14:38:37 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:38:37 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707231138m22a6e969o105e26ff84344aea@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/23/07, Wojtak, Greg <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:
> How about Gentoo?  Then you can decide how little/big you want your install
> to be?  Biggest pain is that it is almost from scratch.
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/



I'm a user and a big fan of Gentoo, but it takes way to long to
compile on older systems.  Sure, one could use distcc, but not
everyone has more powerful machines available to them (hence the need
to use an older machine in the first place).


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:09:08 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:09:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231702150.2227@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-23, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> LaTex is not ordinary used for electronic exhange (although like
> anything else it certainly could be).  LaTeX is used to produce
> a material piece of printed paper (think of it!) that is then
> physically translocated through space and time (think ot it!)

o_O

> Silly?  Well, that is a matter of subjective taste.  It may not
> be required, but in the business world a human signature does add
> a professional touch to a letter document and that simple gesture
> can often make a great difference.

In a snail mail letter it makes a difference.

> Let us consider the neck tie.  What is the point of a neck tie?

O_o

>> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg
>
> The image is not positioned correctly.  It should be moved
> over toward the left.  That's how a human being would do it.

Not this human being.

> Also, the signature is much too jagged.  That must be the result
> of resizing.  You should always use potrace (potrace.sourceforge.net)
> to make it smooth and natural.
>
> Another thing, the size of the signature and the thickness of
> the individual characters is out of proportion with the text size.
> Would a human being sign his name like that?  Only an awkward
> child, perhaps.  Use a smaller, thinner signature or increase
> the font size.

Uh, it was just an example of how it can be done, something you
claimed was really difficult to do (and wasn't). Sheesh!

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:15:56 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:15:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723123732.34c88e89.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070723123732.34c88e89.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231709320.2227@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-23, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
>> No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
>> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg
>
> Appearances can not only important, they can be decisive.
>
> Let us consider further your image.
[snip irrelevant criticism]
> Based on this poorly wrought presentation, I would
> have serious doubts about your overall competency.

Well, I think that just about ends this discussion.
Check out "The LaTeX Companion", 2nd ed., for more help with LaTeX.
Good luck!

Michael


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Mon Jul 23 17:21:47 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:21:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
In-Reply-To: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0707231715180.24164@rich.rrclark.net>

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007, A. Kalten wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Except for the fact that everything was done on a Linux machine
> using Linux tools, this topic does not actually involve Linux.
> But since a lot of people on this list are versed in networking,
> I thought it might be appropriate to present it here.
> 
> Quite frequently I receive spam that seems to originate from
> bona fide IP addresses that would not likely be in the spamming
> business.  For example, just today I noticed a spam message with
> both the "From:" and "Reply-to:" fields containing abacus21.com,
> which is a legitimate business located in Buffalo, NY, serving the
> hospitality industry.  Of course, these fields can be spoofed, but
> the complete header does show the message as originating at
> abacus21.com:

Sorry this reply is so late, just reviewing old, unread mail.

What you're seeing is a header forgery. I'll point them out for ya.

> Return-Path: <a-8 at abacus21.com>

The below header is the header generated by your internal mail system on 
moving it from the inbound queue to your local mailbox.

> Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
> 	by xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eaDn013984
> 	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:36 -0400

Next header, I'm not certain what's generating this, but it's pointing at 
the likely originator.

> X-ClientAddr: 221.133.163.182

This header below is barium.ypsi.provide.net receiving the message from 
221.133.163.182.

> Received: from [221.133.163.182] ([221.133.163.182])
> 	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eWWn013906
> 	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:33 -0400

The line below is an outright forgery, meant to foul up things for 
automated spam reporting engines, such as spamcop.net and amateur mail 
header readers.

> Received: from [221.133.163.182] by abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:40:35 -0900
> 
> Or is the explanation just a simple matter of abacus21.com being
> a relay?

None of the above, actually. Just another botted Korean windows 
installation.

Many people use Spamhaus's Zen blocklist in their mail system. Had you 
been using it, you wouldn't have seen the original email.


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:33:01 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:33:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723030454.182455bb@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222153050.2920@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070723030454.182455bb@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231716190.2227@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-23, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Huh.  So if I were working on a spec sheet with LaTeX, and my
> hypothetical boss came in and looked over my shoulder and said that
> that graphic had to be a smidgen to the left... no not that far... or
> maybe put it down below that text...

If your boss is doing all that, then I think you have bigger issues to
worry about. ;)

> I would have no problem making
> those adjustments quickly in real time, so he could see the results?

You could do that if you used LyX to handle the LaTeX, I believe.

> Going to a text editor, changing numbers around, recompiling, and
> loading the results in to a Postscript viewer does not cut it there.

Well, I guess it comes down to how much your boss cares about quality
work. If he can't wait a few seconds while looking over your shoulder(!)
for something that will look good when done...well, I can't help you
there.

> I suspect you mean that LaTeX is better then office suites for the
> types of documents I mentioned, not the situations.  In that, you may
> be right - I don't know, but I am interested in learning.

The best way to learn LaTeX is to get the book "The LaTeX Companion",
2nd ed. There are also lots of good tutorials and documentation at
http://www.ctan.org.

> Graphics actually created with LaTeX?  That is very interesting. Can
> you give me an example of some LaTeX code to draw a picture?

PGF is a good graphics package for LaTeX, there are lots of examples here:
http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/graphics/pgf/doc/generic/pgf/version-for-pdftex/en/pgfmanual.pdf

Metapost and PSTricks are also good for graphics, search on CTAN for
those.

> Also, I have never had a chance to use the Acrobat suite, but it is my
> understanding that even then, you can't really edit PDFs all that well.

I've never seen any difficulty doing that. YMMV.

Michael


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 23 17:40:05 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:40:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <20070723174005.51907e65@tessa.long>

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:44:14 -0400
"Michael ORourke" <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older 
> hardware?
> 
> So far I have tried SuSE Desktop 10.2, but I think I can get by with 
> something much more lightweight.  Looked into "Damn Small Linux", but
> that seems to be the other extreme.  Any suggestions for something
> somewhere in the middle?

Personally, I would use Debian and just choose the packages I wanted.
Start with a minimal server install, and add whatever
light-weight desktop software you like.  Depending on just how old this
hardware is, we could be talking anything from "apt-get install twm"
to "apt-get install wmaker" to "apt-get install rox" (that last one
after adding the Rox repository to your sources.list).  Just installing
a window manager or desktop is a nice easy way to bootstrap in X and
anything else you really need. Other suggested window managers would
include XFCE, UDE, fvwm...

Good luck,
Matthew


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:47:53 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:47:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070722233042.113659a5@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222114420.2878@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722233042.113659a5@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231733090.2227@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
>> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg
>>
>> It took me about 1 minute to figure out how to put that signature
>> image in the letter example I gave the other day (I made the signature
>> itself in the Gimp - you can tell I'm no graphic artist. :) ).
>
> I would like to see how, please.  This is interesting.

I created an image file (sig.png) in the Gimp, about 0.5 inches
high and 2 inches long. Then I modified the letter.tex file:

\documentclass{letter}
\usepackage[letterpaper]{hyperref}
\usepackage{graphicx}
\begin{document}
\begin{letter}{Mr. Joe Smith\\1234 Main St.\\Anytown, MI 48123}
\address{Bob Linux\\666 Torvalds Rd \#69\\Mytown, MI 48456}
\signature{Bob Linux}
\opening{Dear Joe,}
This is my very first time using \LaTeX. I definitely like it. I will be
using it much more in the future. In fact, I plan to redo my r\'esum\`e
in it.

I hope you like the way this looks!
\closing{Sincerely,\\\raisebox{-0.5in}[0in][0in]{\includegraphics{sig.png}}}
\end{letter}
\end{document}

---end of code---

Then run "pdflatex letter.tex" and view the letter.pdf file.

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:53:28 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:53:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231751310.2457@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-23, Monsieur Michael ORourke a ecrit:
> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
> hardware?

I'd recommend Slackware. The new version is very good, and it runs
great on old hardware (using a light window manager like WindowMaker,
fvwm, Blackbox, or maybe even XFCE).

Michael


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 23 18:11:46 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:11:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723135642.69e30465.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070723135642.69e30465.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070723181146.68bdf905@tessa.long>

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:56:42 -0400
"A. Kalten" <akalten at comcast.net> wrote:

> > I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using
> > the WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and
> > they often don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the
> > worst at that, it always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what
> > I want to do, despite me telling it to do something else. I now
> > only use things like Word when I have to put something in that
> > format. I use groff for most documents, and LaTeX for a few things
> > groff can't do, all put into PDF format.
> 
> > Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that
> > make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.
> > OOo Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the
> > end of the day, though, I've never seen an office suite that
> > actually impresses me.
> 
> 
> This is all much too vague and general.  What, specifically, are
> you, or were you, trying to accomplish?

Well, first of all, your quotes above mix up something Michael Corral
said (the first paragraph) with something I said in response (starting
at "Well, of course, Word is awful").  Just want to be clear, I have
not given up on word processors in general.

This being the case, I can't answer your question; there is no pinpoint
thing I can say I "was trying to accomplish" over the past few decades.

> The biggest mistake is to expect too much from a word processor.
> They can only perform certain limited tasks.  They cannot accommodate
> every possible whim of the human imagination.

OK, this I can work with.

Some of my expectations from a word processor are that it:

* handle styles correctly and consistently;
* put graphics where I tell it to, rather than teleporting them around;
* not behave differently based on the size of the document;
* allow me at least as much control over formatting as I would have
	with pure XHTML and CSS;
* handle Word DOCs correctly;
* and not crash.

MS Word falls far short on all points, except handling of DOCs.  OOo
Writer does much better in general, and handles DOCs well.  Abiword
does very very well in general, but handles DOCs poorly.

Not that I wouldn't like to have higher expectations.  Word processors
fit a very awkward niche between text editors and desktop publishing
systems, trying to make it easier than DTP and give you more control
and better results then a plain text editor.  When formatting is
everything, I am likely to use a DTP or vector graphics package
(Inkscape, Scribus, etc.); when format is irrelevant, I am likely to
use Emacs in text mode.

> Most often, the design of a document must conform to the
> capabilities of a particular word processor and not vice
> versa.  Thus, it becomes incumbent on the user to fully
> understand what a given word processor can do and what it
> cannot.  (How many casual users spend time studying the
> voluminous software manuals?)

Really, this is a pretty sad thing to admit, but is effectively true.
My real position is that traditional office software is just based on a
very poor model of how to do things.

Regards,
Matthew

(Huh.  "Teleporting" is not in my spell-check dictionary.)


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Mon Jul 23 19:10:06 2007
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:10:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <20070723191006.263ed296@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:00:06 -0400
Wojtak, Greg wrote:

...[snip]....

> How about Gentoo?  Then you can decide how little/big you want your
> install to be?  Biggest pain is that it is almost from scratch.
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/

While gentoo is very configurable, it _does_ have some disk space
requirements.  At present /usr/portage occupies approx 600Mb.  If I
recall, the recommendation for installing it used to be 1GB of ram
(including swap).

Regards,

David



From wolfger at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 07:38:19 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:38:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>

Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Tue Jul 24 08:37:57 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:37:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
Message-ID: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>

Hi All,

I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web 
development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to a 
my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off Front 
Page, if not on to Linux as yet.

Any and all suggestions welcome
Thanx
BD


From tmorris at ugs.com  Tue Jul 24 08:39:32 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:39:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723181146.68bdf905@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20345A748@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

I can't remember... What the hell were we arguing about? (and why?)

--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of M. D. Krauss
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 6:12 PM
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
Subject: Re: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:56:42 -0400
"A. Kalten" <akalten at comcast.net> wrote:

> > I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using 
> > the WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and 
> > they often don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the 
> > worst at that, it always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what 
> > I want to do, despite me telling it to do something else. I now only

> > use things like Word when I have to put something in that format. I 
> > use groff for most documents, and LaTeX for a few things groff can't

> > do, all put into PDF format.
> 
> > Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that

> > make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.
> > OOo Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the end

> > of the day, though, I've never seen an office suite that actually 
> > impresses me.
> 
> 
> This is all much too vague and general.  What, specifically, are you, 
> or were you, trying to accomplish?

Well, first of all, your quotes above mix up something Michael Corral
said (the first paragraph) with something I said in response (starting
at "Well, of course, Word is awful").  Just want to be clear, I have not
given up on word processors in general.

This being the case, I can't answer your question; there is no pinpoint
thing I can say I "was trying to accomplish" over the past few decades.

> The biggest mistake is to expect too much from a word processor.
> They can only perform certain limited tasks.  They cannot accommodate 
> every possible whim of the human imagination.

OK, this I can work with.

Some of my expectations from a word processor are that it:

* handle styles correctly and consistently;
* put graphics where I tell it to, rather than teleporting them around;
* not behave differently based on the size of the document;
* allow me at least as much control over formatting as I would have
	with pure XHTML and CSS;
* handle Word DOCs correctly;
* and not crash.

MS Word falls far short on all points, except handling of DOCs.  OOo
Writer does much better in general, and handles DOCs well.  Abiword does
very very well in general, but handles DOCs poorly.

Not that I wouldn't like to have higher expectations.  Word processors
fit a very awkward niche between text editors and desktop publishing
systems, trying to make it easier than DTP and give you more control and
better results then a plain text editor.  When formatting is everything,
I am likely to use a DTP or vector graphics package (Inkscape, Scribus,
etc.); when format is irrelevant, I am likely to use Emacs in text mode.

> Most often, the design of a document must conform to the capabilities 
> of a particular word processor and not vice versa.  Thus, it becomes 
> incumbent on the user to fully understand what a given word processor 
> can do and what it cannot.  (How many casual users spend time studying

> the voluminous software manuals?)

Really, this is a pretty sad thing to admit, but is effectively true.
My real position is that traditional office software is just based on a
very poor model of how to do things.

Regards,
Matthew

(Huh.  "Teleporting" is not in my spell-check dictionary.)
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From markmont at umich.edu  Tue Jul 24 08:44:13 2007
From: markmont at umich.edu (Mark Montague)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:44:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>

On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 08:37, Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web 
> development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to a 
> my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off Front 
> Page, if not on to Linux as yet.
>   

http://www.nvu.com/index.php

Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that 
Firefox does.

                Mark Montague
                markmont at umich.edu




From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 09:29:07 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:29:07 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5aa434200707240629i4b6d66c9i31bee9cc32125135@mail.gmail.com>

LUGs won't die, they'll change. Installfests aren't needed to get the
average Joe on linux anymore, but regardless, nothing beats having a
well-connected network of people in an area to whom questions can be
asked, advice requested, or just jokes told. A random person playing
around with Linux might not need a LUG to do so anymore, but that's
hardly a death sentence.

Besides, people like me like to lurk on mailing lists and whore out
own own LUGs to  them (*coughwaynestateuniversitylug*), and just kind
of have "an ear to the ground". I almost treat the mailing list like
an RSS feed that I occasionally can post on.


On 7/24/07, Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com> wrote:
> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss
>
> --
> Wolfger
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
> http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> Skype: wolfger88
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 12:30:05 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:30:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com> <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>

Mark Montague wrote:
>
> Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that 
> Firefox does.
>   
Nvu has some stability issues.  Most of my sessions end in a crash, or
rather a program lock.  And like any such program it has it's ideas as
to what works and what does, and they don't always work.  You will need
to edit the HTML on anything other than the simplest pages.


-- 
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Tue Jul 24 12:38:09 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:38:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <C2CBA331.3F35A%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

On 7/24/07 12:30 PM, "Garry Stahl" <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:

> Mark Montague wrote:
>> 
>> Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that
>> Firefox does.
>>   
> Nvu has some stability issues.  Most of my sessions end in a crash, or
> rather a program lock.  And like any such program it has it's ideas as
> to what works and what does, and they don't always work.  You will need
> to edit the HTML on anything other than the simplest pages.
> 

<meta name="editor" content="/usr/bin/vi" />

'nuff said.  ;-)

Greg


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 13:04:31 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:04:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <5aa434200707240629i4b6d66c9i31bee9cc32125135@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <106488.65500.qm@web37909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I will have to agree.  I would hope the LUG's would start to reach out to the regular users and and introduce then to the alternitive. 
   
  I do know that small business people would love to know that they can get A LOT of day to day resources for free in linux and open source.  
   
  But the thing that needs to happen is that people need to see these groups as collection of Tech Guru's.
   
  If a small business person knows that he/she can a few older computers into router( ipcop ) and there own web server with a few older computers, that is GREAT.  They have ownership of there own resources.  
   
  Open Office on 5 - 10 station WOW VoIP for the phone system WOW.
   
  Linux Canada for POS. Man we are moving now.  
   
  The whole thing is the Linux is here, yet many poeple use Windows and other Microsoft products because it is easy and well known.  
   
  It would be cool to do a PC/MAC style commertial to inform small busniss owners that a LINUX infastructure has a low initial investment commentment and yeilds flexablity among other binifits.  
   
  
Mike Ward <unforgiven24 at gmail.com> wrote:
  LUGs won't die, they'll change. Installfests aren't needed to get the
average Joe on linux anymore, but regardless, nothing beats having a
well-connected network of people in an area to whom questions can be
asked, advice requested, or just jokes told. A random person playing
around with Linux might not need a LUG to do so anymore, but that's
hardly a death sentence.

Besides, people like me like to lurk on mailing lists and whore out
own own LUGs to them (*coughwaynestateuniversitylug*), and just kind
of have "an ear to the ground". I almost treat the mailing list like
an RSS feed that I occasionally can post on.


On 7/24/07, Wolfger wrote:
> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss
>
> --
> Wolfger
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
> http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> Skype: wolfger88
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070724/ea7fa569/attachment.html>

From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 24 13:07:20 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:07:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001c7ce15$18808760$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

Another good sign is if you don't have a pulse.  :-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wolfger" <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: "MDLUG Main" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:38 AM
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?


> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss
>
> -- 
> Wolfger
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
> http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> Skype: wolfger88
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.16/914 - Release Date: 7/23/2007 
> 7:45 PM
>
> 



From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Tue Jul 24 13:17:19 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:17:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com> <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <46A6341F.7020402@starline-ent.com>

Mark Montague wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 08:37, Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com> wrote:
>> I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web 
>> development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to a 
>> my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off Front 
>> Page, if not on to Linux as yet.
>>   
> 
> http://www.nvu.com/index.php
> 
> Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that 
> Firefox does.
> 

Thanx,

This is included on TheOpenCD so I decided to DL the latest version of 
  TheOpenCD and start him on that. I'm also including a copy of gvim for 
win32, as recommended on another list.

BD



From mdlug2 at arb.net  Tue Jul 24 13:31:56 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:31:56 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] "Digital" signatures
In-Reply-To: <20070723045403.1DA7320AB03@starfox.local>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<20070723045403.1DA7320AB03@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46A6378C.5080806@arb.net>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Drew, Dan, Michael
>
>   
>>> as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
>>> signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.
>>>       
>
>   
>> I hope that it would mean a PGP signature, which is designed to 
>> as much as possible eliminate the possibility that someone other than the
>> key owner signed it instead.
>>     
>
> I believe you are referring to FIPS-186, (Federal Information Processing
> Standards Publication 186) (http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/fip186.htm) .
>
> FIPS-186 is identified by Open-PGP (RFC 2440) as signature algorithm 17 ,
> which I believe is the default signature algorithm of gpg.
>
> Hopefully helpful,
>   
One part of "Digital Signatures" often missed by IT folks - especially 
the high up the food chain you go, is the infrastructure ( hw & sw) that 
assures nonrepudiation...  You can't just install a system, even if 
properly architected, and expect it to remain a source of digital 
signatures that "are legal". You must maintain the security triad for it 
to remain such a system. Here is a fairly good doc from the Bar 
association - nonrepudiation

-dave ( CISSP)


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 15:23:35 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:23:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <C2CBA331.3F35A%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C2CBA331.3F35A%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241522260.2067@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-24, Monsieur Wojtak, Greg a ecrit:
> <meta name="editor" content="/usr/bin/vi" />

s/vi/emacs/

There, corrected it for you. :p

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 15:27:46 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:27:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-24, Monsieur Wolfger a ecrit:
> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss

<Bones>It's dead, Jim.</Bones>

Distro-specific web forums and just overall ease of installation/use
of modern Linux systems killed the LUG, quite some time ago.
May it rest in peace.

Michael


From rrcb21 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 15:45:04 2007
From: rrcb21 at yahoo.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:45:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment
Message-ID: <428847.24661.qm@web82309.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


=====MonroeLUG June Meeting Announcement=====

Topic: Whatever we come up with tonight
Date & Time: Tuesday July 24, 2007 6:00PM - 9:00PM
Place: Monroe County Community College La-Z-Boy Center Room Z-271 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1555+S.Raisinville+Rd.+monroe+mi+48161

We don't have a scheduled topic for tonight and we are just going to wing it.
So if you want to come to the meeting and talk about something cool you did in the last month or
so please do. Otherwise this meeting might be used to plane the future if the LUG and how best to
advertise it to the community.

We look forward to seeing everyone at the meeting on Tonight, for the mean time have a
save and happy week.

-Ron




From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Tue Jul 24 16:00:31 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:00:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241522260.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <C2CBD29F.3F410%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

On 7/24/07 3:23 PM, "Michael Corral" <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-24, Monsieur Wojtak, Greg a ecrit:
>> <meta name="editor" content="/usr/bin/vi" />
> 
> s/vi/emacs/
> 
> There, corrected it for you. :p
> 
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


Isn't that a violation of the XHTML DTD?  * shudders at the though of emacs
*


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 17:42:24 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:42:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20345A748@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
References: <20070723181146.68bdf905@tessa.long>
	<B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20345A748@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <20070724174224.09ba6013@tessa.long>

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:39:32 -0500
"Morris, Tim" <tmorris at ugs.com> wrote:

> I can't remember... What the hell were we arguing about? (and why?)

I wasn't arguing - just discussing the relative merits of different
document preparation systems and trying to learn something about LaTeX.
I do feel an argumentative vibe building, though.  If my posts came
across as part of it, I apologize.

Best regards to all,
Matthew


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 17:52:15 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:52:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <46A6748F.2020109@comcast.net>

Michael Corral wrote:
> Distro-specific web forums and just overall ease of installation/use
> of modern Linux systems killed the LUG, quite some time ago.
> May it rest in peace.
>   

"I'm not dead yet!"

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From zifferent at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 17:43:32 2007
From: zifferent at yahoo.com (Dan DeSloover)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:43:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TALUG: MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment
In-Reply-To: <428847.24661.qm@web82309.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <428847.24661.qm@web82309.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46A67284.30005@yahoo.com>

Everyone is going to love this. The meeting may be a bit sparse because 
Ron's wife may have went into labor.

Possible early congrats, to Ron and his wife.

Ron Blanchett wrote:
> <-------- TALUG Info: http://www.talug.org -------->
>
>
> =====MonroeLUG June Meeting Announcement=====
>
> Topic: Whatever we come up with tonight
> Date & Time: Tuesday July 24, 2007 6:00PM - 9:00PM
> Place: Monroe County Community College La-Z-Boy Center Room Z-271 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1555+S.Raisinville+Rd.+monroe+mi+48161
>
> We don't have a scheduled topic for tonight and we are just going to wing it.
> So if you want to come to the meeting and talk about something cool you did in the last month or
> so please do. Otherwise this meeting might be used to plane the future if the LUG and how best to
> advertise it to the community.
>
> We look forward to seeing everyone at the meeting on Tonight, for the mean time have a
> save and happy week.
>
> -Ron
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talug mailing list
> talug at talug.org
> http://bridge.uniqsys.com/mailman/listinfo/talug
>
>   



From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 18:02:48 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:02:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070724180248.3d6f2e2b@tessa.long>

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:38:19 -0400
Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com> wrote:

> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss

In another forum, someone was criticizing Linux, and one of the things
they said was that any system that requires User Groups just to get it
running was no good (heavily paraphrasing).  My response was that
things have changed a lot, and people don't actually *need* a LUG
anymore; but that LUGs were still a fantastic source of free tech
support, far better then most commercial tech support for proprietary
systems.

Even Mac users sometimes need support, and Linux users are much more
likely then most to be doing more advanced things that are not easy
yet.

Anyhow, we're here.  Kind of silly to see an alleged corpse sit up and
ask: "Gee, am I dead?"

Chuckling Regards,
Matthew


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 18:15:24 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:15:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <20070724181524.6a368b2d@tessa.long>

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:37:57 -0400
Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web 
> development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to
> a my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off
> Front Page, if not on to Linux as yet.

I think Emacs works well.

If he really needs a GUI, and you want him to learn to do things the
right way, I suggest Amaya:
http://www.w3.org/Amaya/

Also, make sure he knows about the Web Developer extension for Firefox.
It is not only useful in itself, but makes it easy to run a page
through standards validation.  I'll bet if he starts using it, he will
see just how bad Front Page is.

Good luck,
Matthew


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 18:22:07 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:22:07 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TALUG: MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment
In-Reply-To: <46A67284.30005@yahoo.com>
References: <428847.24661.qm@web82309.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<46A67284.30005@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070724182207.4cb0da6d@tessa.long>

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:43:32 -0400
Dan DeSloover <zifferent at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Everyone is going to love this. The meeting may be a bit sparse
> because Ron's wife may have went into labor.
> 
> Possible early congrats, to Ron and his wife.

Cheers!

Maybe the baby will be born in time to make the end of the meeting.
Imagine coming to a LUG meeting on your zeroth birthday! What a destiny
that child would have!

Very Best Regards,
Matthew


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 18:43:56 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:43:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <46A6748F.2020109@comcast.net>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<46A6748F.2020109@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241841330.3448@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-24, Monsieur Garry Stahl a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> Distro-specific web forums and just overall ease of installation/use
>> of modern Linux systems killed the LUG, quite some time ago.
>> May it rest in peace.
>
> "I'm not dead yet!"

.oO(how do I break the news to Garry?...)

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 18:56:14 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:56:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <20070724180248.3d6f2e2b@tessa.long>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070724180248.3d6f2e2b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241844100.3448@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-24, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Anyhow, we're here.  Kind of silly to see an alleged corpse sit up and
> ask: "Gee, am I dead?"

No, we're dead. It's sad but true. :(

MDLUG is just a shadow of what it used to be. We used to have large
meetings, not anymore. We used to have lots of traffic on the mail
list, not anymore. Things change. MDLUG continues on mostly as a mail
list, but the number of posts is down to a trickle, and usually from
the same handful of "usual suspects". And it's not just MDLUG. The
WLUG list is even more dead (sorry Jay:). And other LUGs across the
country are experiencing the same thing. Someone in that slashdot
article put the R.I.P. date somewhere in 2004. That sounds about
right to me.

Michael


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 19:00:50 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:00:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241841330.3448@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>	<46A6748F.2020109@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241841330.3448@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <46A684A2.8080506@comcast.net>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2007-07-24, Monsieur Garry Stahl a ecrit:
>   
>> Michael Corral wrote:
>>     
>>> Distro-specific web forums and just overall ease of installation/use
>>> of modern Linux systems killed the LUG, quite some time ago.
>>> May it rest in peace.
>>>       
>> "I'm not dead yet!"
>>     
>
> .oO(how do I break the news to Garry?...)
>   

"I'm getting better."

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 21:36:48 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:36:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <20070724181524.6a368b2d@tessa.long>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
	<20070724181524.6a368b2d@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <5aa434200707241836t40fe9bdau857f1645cd2e0707@mail.gmail.com>

Web Developer extension is to a web developer as a hammer is to a
carpenter. You can do without it, but I don't see why you'd ever want
to.

On 7/24/07, M. D. Krauss <zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:37:57 -0400
> Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web
> > development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to
> > a my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off
> > Front Page, if not on to Linux as yet.
>
> I think Emacs works well.
>
> If he really needs a GUI, and you want him to learn to do things the
> right way, I suggest Amaya:
> http://www.w3.org/Amaya/
>
> Also, make sure he knows about the Web Developer extension for Firefox.
> It is not only useful in itself, but makes it easy to run a page
> through standards validation.  I'll bet if he starts using it, he will
> see just how bad Front Page is.
>
> Good luck,
> Matthew
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From rrcb21 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 22:53:27 2007
From: rrcb21 at yahoo.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] TALUG: MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment
Message-ID: <739275.69468.qm@web82305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


False alarm, back to waiting......

----- Original Message ----
From: Dan DeSloover <zifferent at yahoo.com>
To: talug at talug.org; Ron Blanchett <muteid10t at gmail.com>
Cc: Monroe LUG <mc-lug at monroelug.org>; MetroDetroit LUG <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:43:32 PM
Subject: Re: TALUG: MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment

Everyone is going to love this. The meeting may be a bit sparse because 
Ron's wife may have went into labor.

Possible early congrats, to Ron and his wife.

Ron Blanchett wrote:
> <-------- TALUG Info: http://www.talug.org -------->
>
>
> =====MonroeLUG June Meeting Announcement=====
>
> Topic: Whatever we come up with tonight
> Date & Time: Tuesday July 24, 2007 6:00PM - 9:00PM
> Place: Monroe County Community College La-Z-Boy Center Room Z-271 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1555+S.Raisinville+Rd.+monroe+mi+48161
>
> We don't have a scheduled topic for tonight and we are just going to wing it.
> So if you want to come to the meeting and talk about something cool you did in the last month or
> so please do. Otherwise this meeting might be used to plane the future if the LUG and how best to
> advertise it to the community.
>
> We look forward to seeing everyone at the meeting on Tonight, for the mean time have a
> save and happy week.
>
> -Ron
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talug mailing list
> talug at talug.org
> http://bridge.uniqsys.com/mailman/listinfo/talug
>
>   






From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Jul 25 02:34:00 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:34:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A6EED8.6080604@ameritech.net>

Wolfger wrote:
> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss
> 

Something kind of hit me today.
I looked at you and wondered if you saw things my way.
We're taking it hard all the time.
...
Because of all we've seen.
Because of all we've said.
We are the dead.
       David Bowie


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 02:36:02 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:36:02 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com> <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
	<46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707242336w79370700nf612e77d270d0b2b@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/24/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Mark Montague wrote:
> >
> > Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that
> > Firefox does.
> >
> Nvu has some stability issues.  Most of my sessions end in a crash, or
> rather a program lock.  And like any such program it has it's ideas as
> to what works and what does, and they don't always work.  You will need
> to edit the HTML on anything other than the simplest pages.

I have not had stability problems with Nvu-- you may have a PC
hardware or OS problem.  Yes, it's a basic editor, but is DOES
suppport CSS and other standards better than FrontPage.

One might also consider the SeaMonkey suite-- as of v1.1.3, most of
Nvu's features have been back-ported to Composer, and it may be more
stable than Nvu itself, which seems stuck at v1.0

-- Mikey


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Jul 25 08:38:59 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:38:59 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <20070724180248.3d6f2e2b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E70@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: M. D. Krauss

> My response was that
> things have changed a lot, and people don't actually *need* a LUG
> anymore; but that LUGs were still a fantastic source of free tech
> support, far better then most commercial tech support for proprietary
> systems.

 Something I posted on Slashdot yesterday:

 So far as I can see, every operating system runs into situations that
require a 'guru'. My parents are running Ubuntu pretty happily, and while
I have to do their tech support... well, I was doing that with Windows,
too, and now I don't have to fret so much about malware. My wife got me a
t-shirt for my birthday that says "No, I will not fix your computer."
because of all the 'tech support' requests I get from family and friends.
Of course, the vast majority of those were Windows. I'll still do Linux
support, but Windows-using people are SOL unless they are immediate family
members. I just don't have time for the rest.

 LUGs are nice for asking such questions; Google doesn't know everything,
and practical experience can be hard to find sometimes. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                 (313) 227-2317

 "In an illustrative recent study, subjects were asked their opinion about
  a social welfare policy, which was described as being endorsed either by
   Democrats or by Republicans. Although the subjects sincerely believed
   that their responses were based on the objective merits of the policy,
   the major determinant of what they thought of the policy was in fact
  whether or not their favored political party was said to endorse it."
                - Paul Bloom and Deena Skolnick Weisberg
          (study at: http://content2.apa.org/journals/psp/85/5/808)
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Jul 25 09:15:57 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:15:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241844100.3448@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E72@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael Corral

> MDLUG is just a shadow of what it used to be. We used to have large
> meetings, not anymore. We used to have lots of traffic on the mail
> list, not anymore. Things change. MDLUG continues on mostly as a mail
> list, but the number of posts is down to a trickle, and usually from
> the same handful of "usual suspects". And it's not just MDLUG. The
> WLUG list is even more dead (sorry Jay:). And other LUGs across the
> country are experiencing the same thing. Someone in that slashdot
> article put the R.I.P. date somewhere in 2004. That sounds about
> right to me.

 But certainly if I had to choose between the situation then and now I'd
take today in a heartbeat. Back around 1995-1996, Linux's profile was
practically nonexistent outside the serious computing enthusiasts.
Information was available on newsgroups, or via specialty-press books.
LUGs were wonderful at that time to pool and distribute knowledge and
even just general news.

 Now Linux is serious business, and is commonly seen in the wider
culture. Finding information is vastly easier, and virtual communities
in general are 'mainstream'; having one (or several) for Linux too is
no big deal. I can live with LUGs going away, as fun and useful as they've
been, if the *need* for them goes away in such a positive manner.

 Consider how few people feel it necessary to join an auto club these
days. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317

 "To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature,
          and it remains premature today." -Isaac Asimov
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jul 25 11:59:38 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:59:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E70@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E70@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46A7736A.9000501@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  So far as I can see, every operating system runs into situations that
> require a 'guru'. My parents are running Ubuntu pretty happily, and while
> I have to do their tech support... well, I was doing that with Windows,
> too, and now I don't have to fret so much about malware. My wife got me a
> t-shirt for my birthday that says "No, I will not fix your computer."
> because of all the 'tech support' requests I get from family and friends.
> Of course, the vast majority of those were Windows. I'll still do Linux
> support, but Windows-using people are SOL unless they are immediate family
> members. I just don't have time for the rest.
>   

I want one with a busted Windows logo that says "I don't do windows."



-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Wed Jul 25 12:03:38 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:03:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E72@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <C2CCEC9A.3F5BB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

On 7/25/07 9:15 AM, "Ingles, Raymond" <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:

>> From: Michael Corral
> 
>> MDLUG is just a shadow of what it used to be. We used to have large
>> meetings, not anymore. We used to have lots of traffic on the mail
>> list, not anymore. Things change. MDLUG continues on mostly as a mail
>> list, but the number of posts is down to a trickle, and usually from
>> the same handful of "usual suspects". And it's not just MDLUG. The
>> WLUG list is even more dead (sorry Jay:). And other LUGs across the
>> country are experiencing the same thing. Someone in that slashdot
>> article put the R.I.P. date somewhere in 2004. That sounds about
>> right to me.
> 
>  But certainly if I had to choose between the situation then and now I'd
> take today in a heartbeat. Back around 1995-1996, Linux's profile was
> practically nonexistent outside the serious computing enthusiasts.
> Information was available on newsgroups, or via specialty-press books.
> LUGs were wonderful at that time to pool and distribute knowledge and
> even just general news.
> 
>  Now Linux is serious business, and is commonly seen in the wider
> culture. Finding information is vastly easier, and virtual communities
> in general are 'mainstream'; having one (or several) for Linux too is
> no big deal. I can live with LUGs going away, as fun and useful as they've
> been, if the *need* for them goes away in such a positive manner.
> 
>  Consider how few people feel it necessary to join an auto club these
> days. :->
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317
> 
>  "To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature,
>           and it remains premature today." -Isaac Asimov
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose
> it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately
> and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

So in a way, the LUG has done its job - spreading information and knowledge
so that now a LUG is no longer as necessary as it was in the past.  Ironic,
but I'm sure the LUG would have wanted it that way.


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Jul 25 14:41:48 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:41:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <C2CCEC9A.3F5BB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C2CCEC9A.3F5BB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <20070725184148.AD26620AB03@starfox.local>

Michael, Ray, Greg,

>>> MDLUG is just a shadow of what it used to be. ...
>> But certainly if I had to choose between the situation then and now I'd
>> take today in a heartbeat. ...
> So in a way, the LUG has done its job - ...

<IMHO>
I think the job need has changed.  Businesses have grown to service
some of the needs (distribution, configuration, ...) formerly supplied
by the lugs.  Virtual communities supply many other needs (tech support,
installation, ...)

History is repeating itself.  Now the lugs need to start serving as
standards publishers, educators, and quality watchdogs.  The Society
of Automative Engineers was the advocate of interoperable mechanical
standards, we now call "English".

The virtual communities tend to center around one product/brand/...
that is their principle support.  As always, short-term business
interests will push the business to "manage" the virtual communities
toward accepting decreasing quality standards (rather than invest
in design or repair), decreasing utility to the end customers (rather
than investing in research), and decreasing flexibility (rather than
stocking diversity).  To maintain the customer satisfaction, required for
long-term business interests, someone is needed to advocate research
and improving customer utility.

By linking customers who share geography, but do not share identical
interests/products/brands, the lugs now interlink the virtual communities
so that the above short-term pressures cannot go far, before the customers
are aware by comparison.  Even though too few customers may directly
interact via lugs, this tenuous connection is precious.

To fulfill this need, the lugs are well placed to follow
the lead of the Consumers Union, Automobile Assocations of America,
Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, and many others.
</IMHO>

My $0.02
-- 
Dr. B

"E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be
 used only to be used for company business."
      -- unknown


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 14:44:36 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:44:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <1185064979.23268.13.camel@hppavilion.kannanhome>
References: <1185064979.23268.13.camel@hppavilion.kannanhome>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707251144r5040af9dx58cf4dc9aedb33b9@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/21/07, R Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
>  All,
>
>  I upgraded from firefox 1.5.? to firefox.2.0.0.5 and installed the
> Macromedia Flashplayer 9.0 plugin. I had flashblock installed with the old
> version but when I try to install it from
>
>  https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/433
>
>  it gave me an error saying..
>
>  installLocation has no properties
>  Error: installLocation has no properties
> file:///usr/lib/firefox/components/nsExtensionManager.js
>  Line: 3940
>
>  Anyone knows how to get around this? I did not have a problem installing
> the same plugin with the old version.
>
>  TIA for any help.

It installed fine for me.
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jul 25 14:58:09 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:58:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <20070725184148.AD26620AB03@starfox.local>
References: <C2CCEC9A.3F5BB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
	<20070725184148.AD26620AB03@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46A79D41.8000200@comcast.net>

Robert Meier wrote:
> To fulfill this need, the lugs are well placed to follow
> the lead of the Consumers Union, Automobile Assocations of America,
> Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, and many others.
> </IMHO>
>   
"I don't want to go on the cart."

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From wolfger at gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 15:11:23 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:11:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707251144r5040af9dx58cf4dc9aedb33b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1185064979.23268.13.camel@hppavilion.kannanhome>
	<b02c40e90707251144r5040af9dx58cf4dc9aedb33b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707251211m31e6ae59vd1d294610cef403f@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> It installed fine for me.
> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)

I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From tmorris at ugs.com  Wed Jul 25 15:17:23 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:17:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707251211m31e6ae59vd1d294610cef403f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20345B09E@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

I noticed a few websites and an iGoogle plugin didn't work correctly
either. 


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Wolfger
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:11 PM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0

On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> It installed fine for me.
> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)

I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.

--
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Wed Jul 25 16:14:53 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:14:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
Message-ID: <27112652.1185394493499.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


How do you get an update pushed down to you?

Thanks
-----Original Message-----
>From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 25, 2007 3:11 PM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
>
>On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> It installed fine for me.
>> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
>> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)
>
>I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.
>
>-- 
>Wolfger
>http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
>http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
>AOL IM: wolf4coyot
>Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
>Skype: wolfger88
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From wolfger at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 05:29:28 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 05:29:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <27112652.1185394493499.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <27112652.1185394493499.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707260229j531da7a3uc03368bc3b28019f@mail.gmail.com>

In the "Advanced" section of Preferences, under the Update tab. You
can select what to check for updates on, and whether or not to get
them auto-installed.

On 7/25/07, R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> How do you get an update pushed down to you?
>
> Thanks
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
> >Sent: Jul 25, 2007 3:11 PM
> >To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
> >
> >On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> It installed fine for me.
> >> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
> >> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)
> >
> >I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.
> >
> >--
> >Wolfger
> >http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
> >http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
> >AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> >Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> >Skype: wolfger88
> >_______________________________________________
> >mdlug mailing list
> >mdlug at mdlug.org
> >http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Thu Jul 26 07:36:38 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:36:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707260229j531da7a3uc03368bc3b28019f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2CDFF86.3F71E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Automatic updates?  That seems so... Windows-ish. ;-P


On 7/26/07 5:29 AM, "Wolfger" <wolfger at gmail.com> wrote:

> In the "Advanced" section of Preferences, under the Update tab. You
> can select what to check for updates on, and whether or not to get
> them auto-installed.
> 
> On 7/25/07, R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>> 
>> How do you get an update pushed down to you?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 25, 2007 3:11 PM
>>> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
>>> 
>>> On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> It installed fine for me.
>>>> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
>>>> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)
>>> 
>>> I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Wolfger
>>> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
>>> http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
>>> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
>>> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
>>> Skype: wolfger88
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mdlug mailing list
>>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________________
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>> 
> 


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 10:36:50 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:36:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <C2CDFF86.3F71E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <3b00b3330707260229j531da7a3uc03368bc3b28019f@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2CDFF86.3F71E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707260736g42c15e3fy36d1f5e5f7608be2@mail.gmail.com>

Flashblock has been updated in the last 24 hours, you may want to
check and make sure you have the latest version.

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 12:03:39 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:03:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TigerDirect admins are clueless
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jeff Hanson,

In an effort to improve security, we have eliminated certain
previously allowed characters for use in the creation of a password.
(Example: > < @ ')

Our records indicated that one or more of these characters were used
in your password. We have since reset your password.

To retrieve your new password, simply click the link below and enter
your email address ( jhansonxi at gmail.com ). We will immediately send
you your new password. You may then update your password in the "My
Account" page after logging in.

Link to retrieve your new password:
https://www.tigerdirect.com/cgisec/send_password.asp

-------------------
Guess what they're running:
http://searchdns.netcraft.com/?host=tigerdirect.com


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Thu Jul 26 12:13:03 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:13:03 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TigerDirect admins are clueless
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A8C80F.6040402@arb.net>

What a joke.... so, you have to wounder if they keep your password in a 
flat file for "Security" reasons and their latest SQL code chokes on 
special characters...  or they routinely crack their customer's passwords...

Humm, all this on a 7 year old insecure OS.

-dave

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> Dear Jeff Hanson,
>
> In an effort to improve security, we have eliminated certain
> previously allowed characters for use in the creation of a password.
> (Example: > < @ ')
>
> Our records indicated that one or more of these characters were used
> in your password. We have since reset your password.
>
> To retrieve your new password, simply click the link below and enter
> your email address ( jhansonxi at gmail.com ). We will immediately send
> you your new password. You may then update your password in the "My
> Account" page after logging in.
>
> Link to retrieve your new password:
> https://www.tigerdirect.com/cgisec/send_password.asp
>
> -------------------
> Guess what they're running:
> http://searchdns.netcraft.com/?host=tigerdirect.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   



From danno at umich.edu  Thu Jul 26 12:18:51 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:18:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TigerDirect admins are clueless
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070726161851.GA19118@maniac.deathstar.org>

not their admins, their developers.

let's not fix our tangled mess of crappy code to prevent perl
metacharacters from causing a problem; let's just do a bandaid to
prevent people from using them in their passwords.  


On Thu, Jul 26, 2007 at 12:03:39PM -0400, Jeff Hanson wrote:
> Dear Jeff Hanson,
> 
> In an effort to improve security, we have eliminated certain
> previously allowed characters for use in the creation of a password.
> (Example: > < @ ')
> 
> Our records indicated that one or more of these characters were used
> in your password. We have since reset your password.
> 
> To retrieve your new password, simply click the link below and enter
> your email address ( jhansonxi at gmail.com ). We will immediately send
> you your new password. You may then update your password in the "My
> Account" page after logging in.
> 
> Link to retrieve your new password:
> https://www.tigerdirect.com/cgisec/send_password.asp
> 
> -------------------
> Guess what they're running:
> http://searchdns.netcraft.com/?host=tigerdirect.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 12:42:10 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:42:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TigerDirect admins are clueless
In-Reply-To: <20070726161851.GA19118@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070726161851.GA19118@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707260942j2d51749ya1fadcc7a8a81591@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/07, Dan Pritts <danno at umich.edu> wrote:
> not their admins, their developers.
>
> let's not fix our tangled mess of crappy code to prevent perl
> metacharacters from causing a problem; let's just do a bandaid to
> prevent people from using them in their passwords.

-- lazy developer --
OK!  sounds good to me!

now where's my mountain dew?
-- /lazy developer

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 26 17:46:26 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:46:26 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net><000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
	<b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

Good suggestions... thanks to everyone that replied.

I don't want the hassle of roll-your-own distribution, or something I need 
to compile on the box.  Just something I can install easily and that just 
"works".  The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 512MB and a 
20GB hard drive.
So far, I'm pretty happy with Puppy Linux installed to the hard drive. 
Which looks like this is going to be a good solution.

Thanks,
Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation


> On 7/23/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
>> hardware?
>
> Stuff I've used by size/features:
> Xubuntu
> Puppy www.puppylinux.com
> DeLi delili.lens.hl-users.com
>
> There are lots of other Ubuntu-based distros with various system 
> requirements:
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ubuntu-based_distributions
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.14/912 - Release Date: 7/22/2007 
> 7:02 PM
>
> 



From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Jul 26 18:25:31 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:25:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net><000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>	<b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
	<001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <46A91F5B.4090006@comcast.net>

Michael ORourke wrote:
> Good suggestions... thanks to everyone that replied.
>
> I don't want the hassle of roll-your-own distribution, or something I need 
> to compile on the box.  Just something I can install easily and that just 
> "works".  The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 512MB and a 
> 20GB hard drive.
> So far, I'm pretty happy with Puppy Linux installed to the hard drive. 
> Which looks like this is going to be a good solution.
>   

I'm running SuSE 9.2 on a 500mhz with 320ram.  That's plenty of machine
for most distros.  I run full KDE and the works. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Thu Jul 26 19:36:00 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:36:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
Message-ID: <30782569.1185492960487.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Tried installing again. Exact same error at the exact same line of javascript code. Googling, I found the same error message cited by others but could not find any solutions :-(
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 26, 2007 10:36 AM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
>
>Flashblock has been updated in the last 24 hours, you may want to
>check and make sure you have the latest version.
>
>-- 
>Clinton V. Weiss
>cvweiss at gmail.com
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 19:57:58 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:57:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
	<b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
	<001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707261657k2e1d6a9cwc2c83601965b2208@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 512MB and a 20GB hard drive.

I've installed Xubuntu on K6-2 350MHz systems with 128MB RAM and 6GB
drives, DeLi and Puppy on a Cyrix 166MHz w/32MB, Ubuntu on HP Pavilion
600MHz Celeron 256MB systems.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Jul 27 08:45:53 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:45:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E8A@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

512MB is about enough for anything a basic desktop would want to do.
It's tight for video editing and such, but it can be done (I've done 
it.)

> 
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.

> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]On Behalf
> Of Michael ORourke
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 5:46 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
> 
> 
> Good suggestions... thanks to everyone that replied.
> 
> I don't want the hassle of roll-your-own distribution, or 
> something I need 
> to compile on the box.  Just something I can install easily 
> and that just 
> "works".  The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 
> 512MB and a 
> 20GB hard drive.
> So far, I'm pretty happy with Puppy Linux installed to the 
> hard drive. 
> Which looks like this is going to be a good solution.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
> To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
> 
> 
> > On 7/23/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
> >> hardware?
> >
> > Stuff I've used by size/features:
> > Xubuntu
> > Puppy www.puppylinux.com
> > DeLi delili.lens.hl-users.com
> >
> > There are lots of other Ubuntu-based distros with various system 
> > requirements:
> > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ubuntu-based_distributions
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.14/912 - Release 
> Date: 7/22/2007 
> > 7:02 PM
> >
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
>


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Jul 27 09:19:00 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:19:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] MDLUG usage reminder
Message-ID: <46A9F0C4.mailOB31WKD14@freehold.wwnet.com>

This is the monthly reminder of
     mdlug List Guidelines.
Please send comments to eaglecoach at wwnet.com
Meetings are monthly (http://www.mdlug.org/meetings/meetings.html).

*Courtesy:*
Do unto others what you would have them do unto you in their place.

See /Emily Postnews/ (http://www.templetons.com/brad/emily.html) and
  /Netiquette Guidelines/ (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html) for details.

If you find something objectionable or off-topic, please send a courteous
  note offlist to the author (and/or postmaster at mdlug.org) rather than list.
  (The rule is simple, do not be easily annoyed or annoying.)

Please post messages in plain text (rather than html or rich text).
  See http://expita.com/nomime.html for instructions for your browser.

Please remove References: field when starting a new subject.

Please trim your replies so that you only quote the parts you are are
  replying to, rather than the entire original message , and
  prefix with '>'. (Most mail clients do this part automatically.)

Please do not cross-post, and if you feel you must, please direct
  discussion to one list with a reply-to; field

*Lists:*
 mdlug-admin    mdlug administration

 mdlug-newbie   questions/answers with explanation of concepts
                assume the questioner was unaware of the
                man/info/... pages
                initial configuration of ???

 mdlug          ANNOUNCE: announcements only, no discussion

 mdlug          questions/answers using jargon
                assume the questioner has read the man/info/... pages
                technical (e.g. howto, perl scripts)

 mdlug-discuss  politics
                Microsoft-bashing
                my disto can beat up your distro, and other flames
                anything else

*Filtering and Security*
If you lack time or interest to follow some of the topics, ask
 mdlug-newbie for suggestions on filtering mail automatically.

We welcome the many who listen silently, and invite them to post when
 they wish to contribute either questions or answers.

We strip the reply to addresses from the headers of messages before putting
 them in the archives.

Likewise, our archiving software quashes email addresses in the body of
 messages, to make them difficult for spammers to harvest. However they
 will still be human readable so you might want to consider this before
 posting personal email addresses.

Have fun!


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Jul 27 11:04:32 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:04:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [MEETING] IEEE SEMichigan: Aug 14, 2007 5:30pm
Message-ID: <20070727150432.A0A6720AB03@starfox.local>

I suspect the following evening meeting may be of interest.



  ---- Meeting Notice ----

Topic: "ODF: HOW A DIGITAL DOCUMENT FORMAT IS THREATENING A
MULTIBILLION-DOLLAR MONOPOLY (AND WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP)" 

TUESDAY AUGUST 14, 2007 5:30PM 
FAIRLANE CENTER BUILDING, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN-DEARBORN

Our invited speaker will be Dave Scholl, Technical Specialist, Ford Research. 

Agenda: 
5:30pm pizza and networking
6:30pm presentation

Registration: 
New registration page is open at
https://www.ieeeemcs.org/semi/regemcmeet.asp?EventID=081407
Managers, engineers, technical professionals, engineering students, IEEE
members and their guests are invited. The Chapter Presentation is a FREE event.
IEEE Non-Members Welcome. 

Abstract: 
Under the leadership of Bill Gates, Microsoft has become one of the most
profitable companies in the history of the world. There are many keystones to
Microsoft's continuing lock-in as a convicted (yet untrammeled) monopolist in
the personal-computer software market. One of the most important of these
keystones, and one which is a matter of personal experience for many of us, is
their control over access to the information we store in digital documents.
Microsoft Word, by default, stores documents in a proprietary format which can
only be read reliably by other copies of the same version of Word. Therefore,
almost everyone who works in any kind of office needs to purchase an up-to-date
copy of Microsoft Word in order to be able to access thesedocuments. 

Recently, two powerful communities have joined to promote an alternative
digital document format known as Open Document Format (ODF), which is a
published open standard, free for any programmer to implement. The first and
largest of these communities is all those who don't wish to pay Microsoft's
monopoly-inflated prices. The Chinese government, on behalf of the Chinese
business community, is a notable member of this group. The second such community
is government archivists, who have a statutory responsibility to maintain
collections of documents for public access over decades. This group is smaller
than the first, but their voices are heard by lawmakers. They also find the
default Microsoft document format unacceptable. Imperfect conversions to new
formats can change the documents in unpredictable ways, and maintaining
computers running older versions of Word is neither practical nor legal. In many
countries, arranging a government archive in such a way that citizens are
required to make a purchase from Microsoft before viewing public records is
highly objectionable, not to mention illegal. More objectionable yet is the
concept of the citizens of a sovereign government being unable to view their own
government's electronic documents without licensing software patents held by
Microsoft, a foreign corporation. 

Bio: 
Dave Scholl holds a BA in Physics from Rice University, and an MA in Chemistry
from Stanford University. Mr. Scholl worked in Thin-film physics at IBM Almaden
Research Laboratory, and since 1991 has been at Ford Scientific Research Surface
physics, nanotribology, combustion diagnostics, sound quality, and vehicle
emissions. He has been a Linux user since Red Hat 4.2, a decade ago. 

See the poster and more info on the Chapter web site at
http://ewh.ieee.org/r4/se_michigan/ems/20070814_august_meeting.html

Pizza provided by Vector CAN-Tech. 

This meeting is presented by the IEEE ENGINEERING MANAGEMENT SOCIETY, the IEEE
EMC SOCIETY, the IEEE VEHICULAR TECHNOLOGY SOCIETY, and the IEEE COMPUTER
SOCIETY Southeastern Michigan Chapters. Opinions expressed by the presenters
are their own and not necessarily those of IEEE.
  ---- Meeting Notice ----


-- 
Dr B


From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 27 23:04:27 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:04:27 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707261657k2e1d6a9cwc2c83601965b2208@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
	<b02c40e90707261657k2e1d6a9cwc2c83601965b2208@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200707272004.27732.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

On Thursday 26 July 2007, Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On 7/26/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 512MB and a 20GB
> > hard drive.
>
> I've installed Xubuntu on K6-2 350MHz systems with 128MB RAM and 6GB
> drives, DeLi and Puppy on a Cyrix 166MHz w/32MB, Ubuntu on HP
> Pavilion 600MHz Celeron 256MB systems.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

This may be obvious, but...

Be careful running kde or gnome apps on a desktop like xfce.  Testing 
has shown that you may actually be better off using the desktop of your 
applications, since you will be pulling in tons of libs anyway.  You 
can actually use more memory with Xfce + konsole + konqueror + amarok 
for example, than kde + konsole + konqueror +amarok.

http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html

Whatever you think about the numbers, the concepts seem solid.

Cheers,

Mike

-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Jul 28 13:41:47 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:41:47 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] How not to do off-site backup
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707281041q30f0c3e5k4a1c59a1ae46fd2c@mail.gmail.com>

http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2007/07/26/800000-stolen-social-security-numbers-a-22-year-old-scapegoat/

July 26, 2007
800,000 stolen social security numbers: a 22-year-old scapegoat?
By David Cassel

800,000 stolen social security numbers - a 22-year-old scapegoatA
22-year-old intern said today he's the "scapegoat" for the loss of
over 800,000 social security numbers.

A backup tape was stolen from his car last month containing at least
770,000 social security numbers (with the corresponding names) for
Ohio taxpayers. It also contained the social security numbers for
another 64,000 state employees. Today the intern issued a statement
with his side of the story.

Four months ago 22-year-old Jared Ilovar ? who's studying computers at
DeVry University ? started an internship with the state of Ohio. He
said he'd sometimes take home a data tape to ensure there was an
off-site version of the data. "The extent of my instructions on what
to do after I removed the tapes from the tape drive and took the tapes
out of the building was, 'bring these back tomorrow.'"


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sat Jul 28 19:23:25 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:23:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] President's mail bag [Fwd: Wanted: Free Software resources
 for all families and schools]
Message-ID: <46ABCFED.4050402@ameritech.net>

Looks like it's worth passing on.
Ray
> Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:05:24 +0200 (CEST)
> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:05:24 +0200
> From: Marco Fioretti <marco at digifreedom.net>
> To: president at mdlug.org
> Subject: Wanted: Free Software resources for all families and schools
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> I am a freelance writer specialized in FOSS topics, Contributing
> editor of Linux Journal
> (http://www.linuxjournal.com/xstatic/corporate/staff/Marco) and member
> of the OpenDocument Fellowship.
> 
> I'd like to let you know about a new personal initiative of mine,
> which will hopefully make lots of parents and teachers understand why
> they cannot ignore FOSS and Free Culture anymore in the interest of
> their own children.
> 
> I am going to publish on the Digifreedom website:
> 
> * a directory of Digitally Free Schools, that all parents may check
>   when choosing a new school for their children.
>   http://digifreedom.net/node/55
> 
> * one of bad public websites,     http://digifreedom.net/node/76
> 
> * one of Trashware organizations, http://digifreedom.net/node/92
> 
> * a list of examples of "Bad ICT information", that is links to
>   article from mainstream press or websites which have no clue of what
>   Free Software actually is, so all parents and other non-hackers can
>   learn to recognize them.
> 
> * forums on Digitally Free School and Digitally Free Families:
>   http://digifreedom.net/forum/30
>   where all citizens concerned about the attacks on the Digital
>   Freedom of their schools or families can work together to protect
>   it.
> 
> All these are and will always remain absolutely free services to the
> whole community: I hope to make of these databases something that all
> parents and teachers, especially those who know nothing or very little
> about software, will be able to use to do the right choices in the
> best interest of their children's education and of their own civil
> rights.
> 
> The reason why I am writing is only to let your LUG know that I always
> welcome any submission to any of those databases (the more the better),
> either through the forums above or via direct email.
> 
> Obviously, should you find it appropriate, you are also welcome to
> spread the word about the databases, forums and my Open Letter to
> Mothers about Software (http://digifreedom.net/node/74) as much as you
> wish, *especially* outside Free Software circles. Teachers, parents
> associations, churches, senior citizens clubs, any youth organization,
> whatever: the more non-programmers we can reach with this approach,
> the better it would be for Free Standards and Software.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your time! Any general feedback is also
> welcome!
> 
>         Best Regards,
> 
>         Marco Fioretti



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 13:22:30 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:22:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>

Although this covers Windows drivers, I mention it here for several reasons:

* Many of us are forced to use possibly-affected Windows PCs in the
workplace or at home.
* The Realtek-supplied Linux driver (if there IS one) may be affected.
* The corrupted data may wind up on our Linux machines.
* It may affect torrent transfers for all of us.

"Realtek network driver silently corrupts data"
<http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=639>

Which also begs the question, "How did this driver get
WHQL-certified?"  It shows real sloppiness on the part of MS and
Realtek (I admit, no surprises there).

-- Mikey


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 14:21:30 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:21:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707301121j1beeb283u3a243b4dcb5ab41d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/30/07, Michael Rudas wrote:

> Which also begs the question, "How did this driver get
> WHQL-certified?"  It shows real sloppiness on the part of MS and
> Realtek (I admit, no surprises there).

Oops... s/begs the question/raises the question... (tnx Carl).

First day with my new brain-- it takes a while for the neurons to knit.

-- Mikey


From painbank at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 15:12:14 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:12:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707242336w79370700nf612e77d270d0b2b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com> <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
	<46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>
	<b67fb0380707242336w79370700nf612e77d270d0b2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cafacd830707301212n76494d9asdb2b91f9b61b0864@mail.gmail.com>

check out FasterFox plugin Extension for Firefox.

Rich


On 7/25/07, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/24/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> > Mark Montague wrote:
> > >
> > > Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms
> that
> > > Firefox does.
> > >
> > Nvu has some stability issues.  Most of my sessions end in a crash, or
> > rather a program lock.  And like any such program it has it's ideas as
> > to what works and what does, and they don't always work.  You will need
> > to edit the HTML on anything other than the simplest pages.
>
> I have not had stability problems with Nvu-- you may have a PC
> hardware or OS problem.  Yes, it's a basic editor, but is DOES
> suppport CSS and other standards better than FrontPage.
>
> One might also consider the SeaMonkey suite-- as of v1.1.3, most of
> Nvu's features have been back-ported to Composer, and it may be more
> stable than Nvu itself, which seems stuck at v1.0
>
> -- Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img src="
http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0" alt="The Pain Bank
- SCA and WMA"/></a>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070730/d2233598/attachment.html>

From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Jul 30 21:03:31 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:03:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707301121j1beeb283u3a243b4dcb5ab41d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380707301121j1beeb283u3a243b4dcb5ab41d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46AE8A63.7010108@ameritech.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> On 7/30/07, Michael Rudas wrote:
> 
>> Which also begs the question, "How did this driver get
>> WHQL-certified?"  It shows real sloppiness on the part of MS and
>> Realtek (I admit, no surprises there).
> 
> Oops... s/begs the question/raises the question... (tnx Carl).
> 
> First day with my new brain-- it takes a while for the neurons to knit.
> 
> -- Mikey

This also raises the question, at least among the ignorant like me, why
did the error detecting/ correcting/ portion of the TCP stack, the crc -
retry algorithms, etc, allow this? Sheer number of errors? Where the
algorithms just over whelmed? Would a faster CPU make a difference? Is
it just a matter that in a large enough population of bad packets some
will, by chance, have the same crc check sum as the original?

Wondering
Raymond McLaughlin


From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Tue Jul 31 11:02:24 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:02:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <46AE8A63.7010108@ameritech.net>
References: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380707301121j1beeb283u3a243b4dcb5ab41d@mail.gmail.com>
	<46AE8A63.7010108@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>

On Mon, 2007-07-30 at 21:03 -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Michael Rudas wrote:
> > On 7/30/07, Michael Rudas wrote:
> > 
> >> Which also begs the question, "How did this driver get
> >> WHQL-certified?"  It shows real sloppiness on the part of MS and
> >> Realtek (I admit, no surprises there).
> > 
> > Oops... s/begs the question/raises the question... (tnx Carl).
> > 
> > First day with my new brain-- it takes a while for the neurons to knit.
> > 
> > -- Mikey
> 
> This also raises the question, at least among the ignorant like me, why
> did the error detecting/ correcting/ portion of the TCP stack, the crc -
> retry algorithms, etc, allow this? Sheer number of errors? Where the
> algorithms just over whelmed? Would a faster CPU make a difference? Is
> it just a matter that in a large enough population of bad packets some
> will, by chance, have the same crc check sum as the original?
> 

I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Jul 31 11:23:49 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:23:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Mathew Enders

> I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
> corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
> TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.

 With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
the receiver can do to detect that.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                 (313) 227-2317

 The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable
  operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying
          to take over the world.  - Drakmere
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 13:31:54 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:31:54 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/31/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > From: Mathew Enders
>
> > I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
> > corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
> > TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.
>
>  With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
> for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
> if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
> the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
> the receiver can do to detect that.

Maybe I'm missing something but logical deduction seems to conclude
that this is an improvement:

1.  It's a Windows-only issue.
2.  The corruption could make transferred applications inoperable.
3.  The data from Windows PCs includes a much higher percentage of
malware than non-Windows PCs.
4.  Corruption of transferred applications from the affected systems
would cause a reduction of malware in general.

Logical?


From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Tue Jul 31 14:27:58 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:27:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On 7/31/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>>> From: Mathew Enders
>>> I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
>>> corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
>>> TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.
>>  With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
>> for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
>> if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
>> the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
>> the receiver can do to detect that.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something but logical deduction seems to conclude
> that this is an improvement:
> 
> 1.  It's a Windows-only issue.
> 2.  The corruption could make transferred applications inoperable.
> 3.  The data from Windows PCs includes a much higher percentage of
> malware than non-Windows PCs.
> 4.  Corruption of transferred applications from the affected systems
> would cause a reduction of malware in general.
> 
> Logical?

One could only hope. Unfortunately, the corruption only seem to happened 
with large 1-2+ gig files.

BD


From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 31 15:32:39 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:32:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <46AF8E57.8060007@ameritech.net>

bob dion wrote:
> Jeff Hanson wrote:
>> On 7/31/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>>>> From: Mathew Enders
>>>> I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
>>>> corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
>>>> TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.
>>>  With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
>>> for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
>>> if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
>>> the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
>>> the receiver can do to detect that.
>> Maybe I'm missing something but logical deduction seems to conclude
>> that this is an improvement:
>>
>> 1.  It's a Windows-only issue.
>> 2.  The corruption could make transferred applications inoperable.
>> 3.  The data from Windows PCs includes a much higher percentage of
>> malware than non-Windows PCs.
>> 4.  Corruption of transferred applications from the affected systems
>> would cause a reduction of malware in general.
>>
>> Logical?
> 
> One could only hope. Unfortunately, the corruption only seem to happened 
> with large 1-2+ gig files.
> 
> BD

Also it seems that the corruption could, theoretically, affect any large
file that passed one hop over an affected windows machine along its
network path.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Tue Jul 31 21:41:45 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:41:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0707312141110.4577@rich.rrclark.net>

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, Jeff Hanson wrote:

> On 7/31/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > > From: Mathew Enders
> >
> > > I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
> > > corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
> > > TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.
> >
> >  With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
> > for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
> > if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
> > the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
> > the receiver can do to detect that.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something but logical deduction seems to conclude
> that this is an improvement:
> 
> 1.  It's a Windows-only issue.
> 2.  The corruption could make transferred applications inoperable.
> 3.  The data from Windows PCs includes a much higher percentage of
> malware than non-Windows PCs.
> 4.  Corruption of transferred applications from the affected systems
> would cause a reduction of malware in general.

5.  PROFIT!!

> Logical?

Sort of, but there are some rather interesting leaps made in your theory.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Tue Jul 31 21:42:48 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:42:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0707312142050.4577@rich.rrclark.net>

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, bob dion wrote:

> One could only hope. Unfortunately, the corruption only seem to happened 
> with large 1-2+ gig files.

I thought that was routine behavior on any MS Windows filesystem?


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 07:53:07 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 04:53:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Finding CD-ROM
In-Reply-To: <4686454D.9090509@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <637156.7055.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I suspect that it is the Mother board.  it is an off brand.  
   
  

Raymond McLaughlin <driveray at ameritech.net> wrote:
  It's an 'nForce650i Ultra' manufactured by EVGA, "designed by NVidia".
I've used EVGA video cards for several years, they make reasonably
priced G-Force, etc cards. This mobo, with the same brand of e-GeForce
7600 GT 256MB PCI-E graphics adapter, plus a 3GHz Pentium-D dual core
processor, 1GB of Kingston DDR2, and a pair of 160GB WD SATA drives
comprise the main componants of a new system I put together for my
sister-in-law. She suffered a bad capacitor blowup, and this was as
cheap as I could bear to go.

By the way, do you need to run SuSE 10.1? I never heard much good about
it. 10.2 is better, at least by reputation. They've done some things
that I don't like (in addition with their flirtation with EVIL), but
over all it works well. I chose it because I understand SuSE in general,
and once delivered I will need to support it at a distance.



David Lane wrote:
> What mother board?
> 
> 
> */Raymond McLaughlin /* wrote:
>
> I don't know about Suse 10.1, but Opensuse 10.2 installs fine from
> a sata DVD drive. It might be the newer kernel, or it might be a
> different motherboard. Getting the newer version couldn't hurt.
>
> I take it you mean that the installer starts up, but the install
> fails because it can't find the packages, etc on the disk?

> 
> David Lane wrote:
> 
> > I'm loading Suse 10.1 on a box that I built. While loading it cant
> find
> > the cd-rom of the dvd.
> >
> > Does any body know what to look for.
> >
> > David C. Lane
> >
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


  
---------------------------------
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
 Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/8432adea/attachment-0001.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 10:17:59 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:17:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <etPan.4686b6b2.66346877.617@zaurus>
Message-ID: <39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Has any body installed Asterisk? 
   
  It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
   
   
   
  David 

       
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/b2042c96/attachment-0001.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 10:21:32 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk (VoIP) and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <682023.80087.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:    Has any body installed Asterisk? 
   
  It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
   
   
   
  David 
    
---------------------------------
  Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games._______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/71169b29/attachment-0001.html>

From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Mon Jul  2 10:22:38 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:22:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C2AE826E.3C65E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Yes we are going to be using it here.


On 7/2/07 10:17 AM, "David Lane" <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Has any body installed Asterisk?
>   
>  
>   
> It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
>   
>  
>   
>  
>   
>  
>   
> David 
>   
> 
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> Play Monopoly Here and Now
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey
> =monopolyherenow>  (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/7cb310b7/attachment-0001.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 10:24:29 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <C2AE826E.3C65E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <759119.27699.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Are you going to installit yourself?
   
  David 
  

"Wojtak, Greg" <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:
  Yes we are going to be using it here.


On 7/2/07 10:17 AM, "David Lane" <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

  Has any body installed Asterisk? 
  
 
  
It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
David 
  
  
---------------------------------
  Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow>  (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
  
---------------------------------
  _______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/07569b33/attachment-0001.html>

From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Mon Jul  2 10:35:04 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:35:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <759119.27699.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C2AE8558.3C676%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

I installed it, another dude is configuring it to work with our Telecom
infrastructure.  So far, it?s pretty cool we?re using the Lumenvox
integration, as well.


On 7/2/07 10:24 AM, "David Lane" <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Are you going to installit yourself?
>   
>  
>   
> David 
>   
> 
> 
> "Wojtak, Greg" <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:
>   
>> Yes we are going to be using it here.
>> 
>> 
>> On 7/2/07 10:17 AM, "David Lane" <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>   
>>> Has any body installed Asterisk?
>>>   
>>>  
>>>   
>>> It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
>>>   
>>>  
>>>   
>>>  
>>>   
>>>  
>>>   
>>> David 
>>>   
>>>   
>>> 
>>>   Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
>>> Play Monopoly Here and Now
>>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48223/*http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamek
>>> ey=monopolyherenow>  (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
>>>   
>>> 
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>> mdlug mailing list
>>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48225/*http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/featur
> es/mail/index.php> wherever you're surfing.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/9b751b2b/attachment-0001.html>

From millerc at cantonpl.org  Mon Jul  2 10:35:11 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:35:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <etPan.4686b6b2.66346877.617@zaurus>
	<39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <23800.66.51.146.97.1183386911.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

David Lane wrote:
> Has any body installed Asterisk?
>
>   It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.

Yes, and yes.

I just installed trixbox a week ago and am still playing
with it.  Since I want a non-standard configuration, it's
taking me longer to figure it out.  If you're new to
asterisk, I'd suggest trying out trixbox.  Be sure to
watch the videos about setting it up.  Even though they
are from an earlier version, you still need to do the
same things.

c




From siersmak at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 10:42:19 2007
From: siersmak at gmail.com (Ken Siersma)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:42:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Asterisk and other open source business solutions
In-Reply-To: <23800.66.51.146.97.1183386911.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <etPan.4686b6b2.66346877.617@zaurus>
	<39930.19807.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<23800.66.51.146.97.1183386911.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <48fee1380707020742g5118fa21m2713c620e70f0f52@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I installed it and set it up Dec 2005 when setting up our new office,
and we've been using it since then.  No major issues, other than a little
trouble getting the phones to do what I want them to.  There's, of course, a
wide community base for help with troubleshooting though.

On 7/2/07, Carl T. Miller <millerc at cantonpl.org> wrote:
>
> David Lane wrote:
> > Has any body installed Asterisk?
> >
> >   It seems this is a soloution that can save a business a lot of money.
>
> Yes, and yes.
>
> I just installed trixbox a week ago and am still playing
> with it.  Since I want a non-standard configuration, it's
> taking me longer to figure it out.  If you're new to
> asterisk, I'd suggest trying out trixbox.  Be sure to
> watch the videos about setting it up.  Even though they
> are from an earlier version, you still need to do the
> same things.
>
> c
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/4cda8c81/attachment-0001.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Jul  2 13:21:35 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:21:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching YOU)
Message-ID: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>

<http://news.softpedia.com/news/Forget-about-the-WGA-20-Windows-Vista-Features-and-Services-Harvest-User-Data-for-Microsoft-58752.shtml>

If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.

-Rob


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 13:53:42 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:53:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching
	YOU)
In-Reply-To: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <502464.6069.qm@web37914.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The Microsoft Pressence is such that they have a lot of leverage.  When this story makes CNN then it might make a difference.
   
  David 
  

Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  

If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.

-Rob
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! 
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/f75e8022/attachment-0001.html>

From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Jul  2 14:01:44 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:01:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching
 YOU)
In-Reply-To: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
References: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <46893D88.5050608@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.
>   
I think anyone using a computer needs to look at this and consider it. 
When you look at  the MS record, nothing here is outrageous or beyond
them.  No tin foil hat required.


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 13:57:05 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:57:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Augest Topic ?
In-Reply-To: <48fee1380707020742g5118fa21m2713c620e70f0f52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070702175705.31585.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

How about Asterisk for the August topic?
   
  I would like to know more.
   
  David 
   

 
---------------------------------
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/4b5183e7/attachment-0001.html>

From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Mon Jul  2 14:26:23 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:26:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching
 YOU)
In-Reply-To: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
References: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <4689434F.2030804@starline-ent.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> <http://news.softpedia.com/news/Forget-about-the-WGA-20-Windows-Vista-Features-and-Services-Harvest-User-Data-for-Microsoft-58752.shtml>
> 
> If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.
> 

No wonder winvista runs so sloooooow! It spends most of it's time spying 
on the user.

BD



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  2 14:36:53 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 11:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <4689434F.2030804@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What are the issues with OpenSuSE? 
   
  I was concidering moving to it.
   
  David C. Lane
   
   

       
---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070702/fb7555e0/attachment-0001.html>

From peter at petertheplumber.net  Mon Jul  2 17:52:20 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 17:52:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1183413140.5330.12.camel@plumber.site>

On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 11:36 -0700, David Lane wrote:
> What are the issues with OpenSuSE? 
>  
> I was concidering moving to it.


David,
	I run opensuse 10.2 on an IBM Thinkpad T30. There is a hack to get
power consumption down to acceptable levels when suspended. The "Zen"
updater simply sucks, as does the new improved main menu. I killed both,
the former in favor of manually updating and the latter in favor of the
"traditional" Gnome menu. Network manager sometimes goes astray, but
it's not just opensuse and the same for evolution. All in all I'd say
I'm very happy with it. It seems rock solid, suspends and resumes w/o
incident. I was up to 45 days uptime before it mistakenly got rebooted.
Battery life isn't the greatest compared to Ubuntu running on an
identical machine, but okay. Old batteries and all. I will be loading
opensuse on this second machine when I get some spare time, Ubuntu just
doesn't dot as many "i's" as opensuse. Please bear in mind I can only
compare to Ubuntu and the Maemo flavor of Debian. For my money, it just
works.

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul  2 23:02:09 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 23:02:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4689434F.2030804@starline-ent.com>
	<988762.16463.qm@web37913.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707022002x321e8c33l790f6ba104a671ef@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/07, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> What are the issues with OpenSuSE?

When I last checked it out I found that it's repos didn't have as many
games and educational packages as compared to Mandriva or
Ubuntu/Debian.  That was important to my user base but maybe not for
you.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 03:46:53 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 03:46:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Interesting... very interesting. (Big Bill is Watching
	YOU)
In-Reply-To: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
References: <4689341F.2080308@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707030046k31c43528va7a53f2561988a97@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/07, Robert Adkins wrote:

> ["WinVista phones home" link]
> If this turns out to be 100% correct and not just speculative.

I can guarantee that it's true.  For those of us that are forced to
run WinXP and higher, though, there IS help.

For the last 4+ years I have installed and used, 100% on EVERY Windows
XP installation I touch, a utility called "XP AntiSpy" which modifies
registry values to turn off nearly all of its "phone home" features.
There will soon be a version for WinVista:
<http://xp-antispy.org/?lang=en&option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1>

-- Mikey


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul  3 08:58:12 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:58:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
Message-ID: <468A47E4.2070202@impelind.com>

    Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds a lengthy 
spiel of information.

    It's places a divider line between each response within the body of 
an email, it places bold, single line headers of the following, with 
standard text versions of the following:

<--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
    *From:* sample at sample.com
    *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
    *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
    *Subject: *Sometime Important.



    The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook and MS 
Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we receive email 
from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of clients. 
He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as save the 
company money.)

    Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to locate a 
configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?

    Thanks,
    Rob


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 10:14:54 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:14:54 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <468A47E4.2070202@impelind.com>
References: <468A47E4.2070202@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707030714l579526c7y5656e597ae8c2877@mail.gmail.com>

Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not saying sit
down and preach to him as a teacher would to the classroom, but leave
printed articles around the break room, water cooler, <insert where he tends
to hang out here> and he will come across them sooner or later.


On 7/3/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>
>     Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds a lengthy
> spiel of information.
>
>     It's places a divider line between each response within the body of
> an email, it places bold, single line headers of the following, with
> standard text versions of the following:
>
> <--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
>     *From:* sample at sample.com
>     *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
>     *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
>     *Subject: *Sometime Important.
>
>
>
>     The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook and MS
> Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we receive email
> from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of clients.
> He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as save the
> company money.)
>
>     Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to locate a
> configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
>
>     Thanks,
>     Rob
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/2762ca83/attachment-0001.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  3 10:37:11 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 07:37:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590707030714l579526c7y5656e597ae8c2877@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for windows and Linux?
  That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext. 
   
  David 
   
  

"Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com> wrote:
  Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the classroom, but leave printed articles around the break room, water cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he will come across them sooner or later. 


  On 7/3/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:      Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds a lengthy
spiel of information.

    It's places a divider line between each response within the body of
an email, it places bold, single line headers of the following, with 
standard text versions of the following:

<--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
    *From:* sample at sample.com
    *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM 
    *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
    *Subject: *Sometime Important.



    The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook and MS
Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we receive email 
from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of clients.
He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as save the
company money.)

    Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to locate a 
configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?

    Thanks,
    Rob
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug




-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com _______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
Check out fitting  gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/b35d6e3b/attachment-0001.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul  3 11:07:15 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:07:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <468A6623.4020505@impelind.com>

Thunderbird has extensions that will add calendering and it has an 
address book that can access an LDAP system to provide an external 
address list.

If I recall correctly, one could also setup a "MS Exchange" like bit 
using the T-Bird Calender Extension, a simple setup on a webserver with 
MySQL as the back-end.

    Regards,
    Robert Adkins 
    IT Manager/Buyer
    Impel Industries, inc.
    586-254-5800



-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100 
58866448ke Outlook
From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:37:11 AM
> For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for 
> windows and Linux?
> That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext.
>  
> David
>  
>
>
> */"Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not
>     saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the
>     classroom, but leave printed articles around the break room, water
>     cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he will come
>     across them sooner or later.
>
>
>     On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* <radkins at impelind.com
>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>> wrote:
>
>             Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds
>         a lengthy
>         spiel of information.
>
>             It's places a divider line between each response within
>         the body of
>         an email, it places bold, single line headers of the
>         following, with
>         standard text versions of the following:
>
>         <--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
>             *From:* sample at sample.com <mailto:sample at sample.com>
>             *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
>             *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
>         <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>
>             *Subject: *Sometime Important.
>
>
>
>             The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook and MS
>         Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we
>         receive email
>         from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of
>         clients.
>         He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as
>         save the
>         company money.)
>
>             Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to
>         locate a
>         configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
>
>             Thanks,
>             Rob
>         _______________________________________________
>         mdlug mailing list
>         mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Clinton V. Weiss
>     cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz> 
> at Yahoo! Search.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul  3 11:07:50 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:07:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <468A6623.4020505@impelind.com>
References: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<468A6623.4020505@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <468A6646.8020903@impelind.com>

BTW,

    I did discover an extension that creates what is requested.

    -Rob

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100 
47235904ke Outlook
From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:07:15 AM
> Thunderbird has extensions that will add calendering and it has an 
> address book that can access an LDAP system to provide an external 
> address list.
>
> If I recall correctly, one could also setup a "MS Exchange" like bit 
> using the T-Bird Calender Extension, a simple setup on a webserver 
> with MySQL as the back-end.
>
>    Regards,
>    Robert Adkins    IT Manager/Buyer
>    Impel Industries, inc.
>    586-254-5800
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100 
> 58866448ke Outlook
> From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:37:11 AM
>> For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for 
>> windows and Linux?
>> That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext.
>>  
>> David
>>  
>>
>>
>> */"Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>>
>>     Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not
>>     saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the
>>     classroom, but leave printed articles around the break room, water
>>     cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he will come
>>     across them sooner or later.
>>
>>
>>     On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* <radkins at impelind.com
>>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds
>>         a lengthy
>>         spiel of information.
>>
>>             It's places a divider line between each response within
>>         the body of
>>         an email, it places bold, single line headers of the
>>         following, with
>>         standard text versions of the following:
>>
>>         <--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
>>             *From:* sample at sample.com <mailto:sample at sample.com>
>>             *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
>>             *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
>>         <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>
>>             *Subject: *Sometime Important.
>>
>>
>>
>>             The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook 
>> and MS
>>         Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we
>>         receive email
>>         from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of
>>         clients.
>>         He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as
>>         save the
>>         company money.)
>>
>>             Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to
>>         locate a
>>         configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
>>
>>             Thanks,
>>             Rob
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         mdlug mailing list
>>         mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     --     Clinton V. Weiss
>>     cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     mdlug mailing list
>>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
>> Check out fitting gifts for grads 
>> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz> 
>> at Yahoo! Search.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>



From cvweiss at gmail.com  Tue Jul  3 12:57:42 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:57:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <468A6646.8020903@impelind.com>
References: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<468A6623.4020505@impelind.com> <468A6646.8020903@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707030957i7d91f51u3417098b93a4b2e0@mail.gmail.com>

Which extension?

On 7/3/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>
> BTW,
>
>     I did discover an extension that creates what is requested.
>
>     -Rob
>
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100
> 47235904ke Outlook
> From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:07:15 AM
> > Thunderbird has extensions that will add calendering and it has an
> > address book that can access an LDAP system to provide an external
> > address list.
> >
> > If I recall correctly, one could also setup a "MS Exchange" like bit
> > using the T-Bird Calender Extension, a simple setup on a webserver
> > with MySQL as the back-end.
> >
> >    Regards,
> >    Robert Adkins    IT Manager/Buyer
> >    Impel Industries, inc.
> >    586-254-5800
> >
> >
> >
> > -------- Original Message  --------
> > Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100
> > 58866448ke Outlook
> > From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
> > To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> > Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:37:11 AM
> >> For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for
> >> windows and Linux?
> >> That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> */"Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>/* wrote:
> >>
> >>     Go a step further in saving money and educate the boss.  I'm not
> >>     saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the
> >>     classroom, but leave printed articles around the break room, water
> >>     cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he will come
> >>     across them sooner or later.
> >>
> >>
> >>     On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* <radkins at impelind.com
> >>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>             Outlook's default method of treating replies to email adds
> >>         a lengthy
> >>         spiel of information.
> >>
> >>             It's places a divider line between each response within
> >>         the body of
> >>         an email, it places bold, single line headers of the
> >>         following, with
> >>         standard text versions of the following:
> >>
> >>         <--------------Divider Line Here--------------------------->
> >>             *From:* sample at sample.com <mailto:sample at sample.com>
> >>             *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
> >>             *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
> >>         <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>
> >>             *Subject: *Sometime Important.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>             The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook
> >> and MS
> >>         Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we
> >>         receive email
> >>         from a plethora of different email servers, using a variety of
> >>         clients.
> >>         He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as well as
> >>         save the
> >>         company money.)
> >>
> >>             Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into Google to
> >>         locate a
> >>         configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
> >>
> >>             Thanks,
> >>             Rob
> >>         _______________________________________________
> >>         mdlug mailing list
> >>         mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     --     Clinton V. Weiss
> >>     cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
> >>     _______________________________________________
> >>     mdlug mailing list
> >>     mdlug at mdlug.org
> >>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> >> Check out fitting gifts for grads
> >> <
> http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
> >
> >> at Yahoo! Search.
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> mdlug mailing list
> >> mdlug at mdlug.org
> >> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/5b29e4db/attachment-0001.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul  3 13:17:24 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:17:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100% like Outlook
In-Reply-To: <f0e9fe590707030957i7d91f51u3417098b93a4b2e0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <100310.13226.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<468A6623.4020505@impelind.com>
	<468A6646.8020903@impelind.com>
	<f0e9fe590707030957i7d91f51u3417098b93a4b2e0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <468A84A4.9060709@impelind.com>

"Change Quote and Reply Format"

    

-Rob

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100 
68437120ke Outlook
From: Clinton V. Weiss <cvweiss at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 12:57:42 PM
> Which extension?
>
> On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* <radkins at impelind.com 
> <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>> wrote:
>
>     BTW,
>
>         I did discover an extension that creates what is requested.
>
>         -Rob
>
>     -------- Original Message  --------
>     Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100
>     47235904ke Outlook
>     From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com
>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>>
>     To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org
>     <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>>
>     Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:07:15 AM
>     > Thunderbird has extensions that will add calendering and it has an
>     > address book that can access an LDAP system to provide an external
>     > address list.
>     >
>     > If I recall correctly, one could also setup a "MS Exchange" like
>     bit
>     > using the T-Bird Calender Extension, a simple setup on a webserver
>     > with MySQL as the back-end.
>     >
>     >    Regards,
>     >    Robert Adkins    IT Manager/Buyer
>     >    Impel Industries, inc.
>     >    586-254-5800
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > -------- Original Message  --------
>     > Subject: Re:[mdlug] Need to make Thunderbird "treat" email 100
>     > 58866448ke Outlook
>     > From: David Lane < dcl400m at yahoo.com <mailto:dcl400m at yahoo.com>>
>     > To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org
>     <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>>
>     > Date: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 10:37:11 AM
>     >> For us that dont know What are the "Outlook" like applications for
>     >> windows and Linux?
>     >> That combines Email, Calanders/appointments, contacts ext.
>     >>
>     >> David
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> */"Clinton V. Weiss" < cvweiss at gmail.com
>     <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>>/* wrote:
>     >>
>     >>     Go a step further in saving money and educate the
>     boss.  I'm not
>     >>     saying sit down and preach to him as a teacher would to the
>     >>     classroom, but leave printed articles around the break
>     room, water
>     >>     cooler, <insert where he tends to hang out here> and he
>     will come
>     >>     across them sooner or later.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     On 7/3/07, *Robert Adkins* < radkins at impelind.com
>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>
>     >>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com
>     <mailto:radkins at impelind.com>>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >>             Outlook's default method of treating replies to
>     email adds
>     >>         a lengthy
>     >>         spiel of information.
>     >>
>     >>             It's places a divider line between each response within
>     >>         the body of
>     >>         an email, it places bold, single line headers of the
>     >>         following, with
>     >>         standard text versions of the following:
>     >>
>     >>         <--------------Divider Line
>     Here--------------------------->
>     >>             *From:* sample at sample.com
>     <mailto:sample at sample.com> <mailto:sample at sample.com
>     <mailto:sample at sample.com>>
>     >>             *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2007 3:31 PM
>     >>             *To:* internalperson at mysite.com
>     <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>
>     >>         <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com
>     <mailto:internalperson at mysite.com>>
>     >>             *Subject: *Sometime Important.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>             The boss believes that "EVERYONE" uses only MS Outlook
>     >> and MS
>     >>         Technology, which is extremely far from the truth, as we
>     >>         receive email
>     >>         from a plethora of different email servers, using a
>     variety of
>     >>         clients.
>     >>         He just wants what he wants. (I want what I want, as
>     well as
>     >>         save the
>     >>         company money.)
>     >>
>     >>             Does anyone have or know what terms to toss into
>     Google to
>     >>         locate a
>     >>         configuration file to create the above in Thunderbird?
>     >>
>     >>             Thanks,
>     >>             Rob
>     >>         _______________________________________________
>     >>         mdlug mailing list
>     >>         mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>     <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>>
>     >>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>     --     Clinton V. Weiss
>     >>     cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
>     <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>>
>     >>     _______________________________________________
>     >>     mdlug mailing list
>     >>     mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>     >>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
>     >> Check out fitting gifts for grads
>     >> <
>     http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>     <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48249/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz>>
>     >> at Yahoo! Search.
>     >>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     >>
>     >> _______________________________________________
>     >> mdlug mailing list
>     >> mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>     >> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >
>     >
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org <mailto:mdlug at mdlug.org>
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Clinton V. Weiss
> cvweiss at gmail.com <mailto:cvweiss at gmail.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From gib at juno.com  Tue Jul  3 19:37:26 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:37:26 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] I've got a potential conflict for 7/14 meeting
Message-ID: <20070703.193726.21960.1@webmail32.lax.untd.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/8698ff25/attachment-0001.ksh>

From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  3 22:32:10 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 19:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
Message-ID: <538216.81275.qm@web55507.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

There are a bunch of the caps that are swelled. Looks like its time for a new board. Where is there a good place to get them. I just moved into Fort atkinson.

thanks 
jack

----- Original Message ----
From: jack freeman <freemancomputer at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 9:44:04 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Kernel panic

Seeing how i just moved it from Detroit it wouldn't surprise me. Ill have to reset everything. 

thanks
Jack

----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 2:42:22 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Kernel panic

On 6/29/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> Repeated kernel panics tend to be a sign of hardware issues.

I recently had an unstable system that was caused by the Socket 478
CPU coming out of it's socket.  I think the heavy heat sink was
putting uneven
 pressure on it.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug







      Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug






 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/c06ebc4f/attachment-0001.html>

From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 02:01:01 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 02:01:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
In-Reply-To: <538216.81275.qm@web55507.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <538216.81275.qm@web55507.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707032301w762e685ck86a860ea6111bcfd@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/3/07, Jack Freeman wrote:

> There are a bunch of the caps that are swelled. Looks like its time for a
> new board. Where is there a good place to get them. I just moved into Fort
> Atkinson.

I don't know that area, so I don't know what stores are around.  I
also don't know what motherboard you are starting with
brand/model-wise (let us know), so I don't know what to suggest.
Here's some general advice.

First you have to decide what your price range is, then what you are
going to buy.  There is something to be said for salvaging your
current processor and RAM if the current system is powerful enough for
your needs-- what DO you have in the bad board?  You can check
http://www.PriceWatch.com for some prices and availability.

If you want someting more powerful-- or just plain newer-- you have a
decision ahead of you.  Due to (admittedly controversial) bug issues
with the Intel "Core" series, I cannot recommend that family of
processors  yet, but since you ARE using it as a server, the anemic
performance of the Intel integrated graphics is not a problem-- and
they are well-supported by Linux-- so a 2.6 GHz or higher Pentium 4
with an integrated-graphics chipset is more than OK.

AMD's chips are also a good choice for these applications, as well.

Remember, too, that newer boards use DDR2 memory, so you likely will
have to replace that as well.  The upside?   With WinVista sales in
the dumper, the bottom has dropped out of the memory market and prices
are near all-time lows.

Typical good board brands for server use include Tyan (sightly more
expensive, but popular), ASUS, Abit, and DFI.  Foxconn is also coming
up strong-- they're the OEM for all of Dell's desktop and (possibly)
server motherboards these days.

I am more than willing to provide further assistance if we can figure
out what your starting point is.  Was your old board suitable for your
needs before it started to go south on you?

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, by the way-- my ATX power supply just
blew up and took out my floppy drive(!) and my main hard drive(!!) and
the problem turned out to be... bad capacitors!  Then I looked at my
mobo, and guess what?  MORE bad caps-- but I can re-cap the board
myself and not have to replace it (I really can't complain, though--
I've had the board since December 2001, ran it hard, and I won it in a
contest anyway).  I'm running from the Knoppix DVD for now until I
figure out how I'm going to shuffle a terabyte of HD space.

-- Mikey


From mat.enders at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 02:02:20 2007
From: mat.enders at gmail.com (Mathew Enders)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:02:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
Message-ID: <1183528940.7123.22.camel@daddymobile>

I have been working on getting a SAMBA server set up as a PDC at the
charter schoolwere we hold our meetings.  Well after several reinstalls,
due to borking it so bad it was just easier to start fresh, I have the
server up and running.  I am able to join machines to the domain.  Users
then also have the ability to log in from any joined machine and have
thier files and settings follow them (no easy task).  I however have one
problem left I am unable to solve.  When a user first logs onto the
server everything goes well the profile is created and all is good.
That is until they log out then log back in either from the same machine
or a different one.  Whith the second and all subsequent logons note pad
opens on the desktop with Desktop in the title bar and this in the body:

[.ShellClassInfo]
LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-21787

There is no Dektop.ini file in the desktop but there is one in My
Documents (as windows uses the for folder settings all over the place I
do not believe that it is for the desk top) it is the only other
Desktop.ini file I can find.  Here is what it contains:

[DeleteOnCopy]
Owner=cgurne00
Personalized=5
PersonalizedName=My Documents

Any suggestions to help this will be greatly appreciated.  Also here is
a copy of my smc.conf file:

# Basic smb.conf for working PDC

[global]
	netbios name = ARDVARC
	workgroup = GAUACA
	server string = Gaudior's PDC SAMBA server %v %h
	add machine script = /usr/sbin/useradd -s /bin/false \-d /dev/null %u
	security = user
	encrypt passwords = yes
	smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd
	local master = yes
	OS level = 64
	domain master = yes
	preferred master = yes
	domain logons = yes
	enable privileges = yes
	logon drive = H

[public]
	comment = For Testing Only Please Do Not Save Here
	path = /home/public
	read only = no

[netlogon]
	comment = Net Logon Service
	path = /home/netlogon
	read only = yes
	write list = +ntadmin

[homes]
	comment = Home
	valid users = %S
	read only = no
	browsable = no

[profile]
	comment = User Profiles
	path = /profiles
	valid users = %U
	create mode = 0600
	directory mode = 0700
	writable = yes
	browsable = no




From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  4 02:33:45 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:33:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
Message-ID: <295494.856.qm@web55502.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Im looking for something cheep cheep cheep that will run my AMD 1800+ and the gig of 3200 RAM that i have. other then that i dont care. Just want something to get my server back up untill i can afford a new nicer box.

Thanks
Jack

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 1:01:01 AM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Kernel panic

On 7/3/07, Jack Freeman wrote:

> There are a bunch of the caps that are swelled. Looks like its time for a
> new board. Where is there a good place to get them. I just moved into Fort
> Atkinson.

I don't know that area, so I don't know what stores are around.  I
also don't know what motherboard you are starting with
brand/model-wise (let us know), so I don't know what to suggest.
Here's some general advice.

First you have to decide what your price range is, then what you are
going to buy.  There is something to be said for salvaging your
current processor and RAM if the current system is powerful enough for
your needs-- what DO you have in the bad board?  You can check
http://www.PriceWatch.com for some prices and availability.

If you want someting more powerful-- or just plain newer-- you have a
decision ahead of you.  Due to (admittedly controversial) bug issues
with the Intel "Core" series, I cannot recommend that family of
processors  yet, but since you ARE using it as a server, the anemic
performance of the Intel integrated graphics is not a problem-- and
they are well-supported by Linux-- so a 2.6 GHz or higher Pentium 4
with an integrated-graphics chipset is more than OK.

AMD's chips are also a good choice for these applications, as well.

Remember, too, that newer boards use DDR2 memory, so you likely will
have to replace that as well.  The upside?   With WinVista sales in
the dumper, the bottom has dropped out of the memory market and prices
are near all-time lows.

Typical good board brands for server use include Tyan (sightly more
expensive, but popular), ASUS, Abit, and DFI.  Foxconn is also coming
up strong-- they're the OEM for all of Dell's desktop and (possibly)
server motherboards these days.

I am more than willing to provide further assistance if we can figure
out what your starting point is.  Was your old board suitable for your
needs before it started to go south on you?

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, by the way-- my ATX power supply just
blew up and took out my floppy drive(!) and my main hard drive(!!) and
the problem turned out to be... bad capacitors!  Then I looked at my
mobo, and guess what?  MORE bad caps-- but I can re-cap the board
myself and not have to replace it (I really can't complain, though--
I've had the board since December 2001, ran it hard, and I won it in a
contest anyway).  I'm running from the Knoppix DVD for now until I
figure out how I'm going to shuffle a terabyte of HD space.

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug







       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070703/ec0ebf2a/attachment-0001.html>

From DRIVERAY at ameritech.net  Wed Jul  4 11:03:55 2007
From: DRIVERAY at ameritech.net (DRIVERAY at ameritech.net)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 07:03:55 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
Message-ID: <AA-B380211F14DB7F296AB295599093F798-ZZ@fipprd24>

I haven't tried SuSE 10.2 on a note book, haven't tried zen, and
I use KDE and thunderbird, not gnome and evolution, so I can't
add to Peter's comments.


Some of the issues I have encountered so far:
There is no kernel level automounter. The actually did away with
subfs with 10.1, most discussion of this seems to date from march
of '06. Subfs was a rather ugly cludge, but it did work, and I
had gotten used to it with 10.0. Now automounting of CDs and
other removable media is provided only processes of KDE (or I
guess gnome). If you boot to command line, or use a light weight
desktop, you will have to use manual mounting which means setting
up sudo, or giving all user's root. At least this is what I have
been able to discover so far. The system I set up does in fact
use KDE, so it is, so far, a theoretical problem.

The other glaring issue I encountered was that the first online
update decided to scramble my grub menu. I had set it up the way
I wanted it, but the online update decided to add back duplicates
 of some entries I had commented out, removed enteries I had
added, and scrambled the menu order. It wasn't hard to put it
back the way I wanted, but grrrr!

Besides these things it seems, so far, to be pretty solid.

Raymond McLaughlin

Peter Bart wrote:

>On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 11:36 -0700, David Lane wrote:
>> What are the issues with OpenSuSE?
>>
>> I was concidering moving to it.
>
>David,
>I run opensuse 10.2 on an IBM Thinkpad T30. There is a hack to
>get power consumption down to acceptable levels when suspended.
>The "Zen" updater simply sucks, as does the new improved main
>menu. I killed both, the former in favor of manually updating
>and the latter in favor of the "traditional" Gnome menu. Network
>manager sometimes goes astray, but it's not just opensuse and
>the same for evolution. All in all I'd say I'm very happy with
>it. It seems rock solid, suspends and resumes w/o incident. I
>was up to 45 days uptime before it mistakenly got rebooted.
>Battery life isn't the greatest compared to Ubuntu running on an
>identical machine, but okay. Old batteries and all. I will be
>loading opensuse on this second machine when I get some spare
>time, Ubuntu just doesn't dot as many "i's" as opensuse. Please
>bear in mind I can only compare to Ubuntu and the Maemo flavor
>of Debian. For my money, it just works.

>Best Regards,
>Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>



From rrcb21 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  4 12:19:07 2007
From: rrcb21 at yahoo.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:19:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
Message-ID: <747640.63458.qm@web82312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Make sure this file is not in the startup folder in both the users profile path
and in the All Users profile path. Then also check the Default User profile path to 
make sure this file isn't in added to every users profile the first time they log in.

If the file isn't there I am not sure what would be causing it to open on every login.

You might need to turn off the Hide hidden and system file settings in the folder settings in explorer (not IE).




----- Original Message ----
From: Mathew Enders <mat.enders at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 2:02:20 AM
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC

I have been working on getting a SAMBA server set up as a PDC at the
charter schoolwere we hold our meetings.  Well after several reinstalls,
due to borking it so bad it was just easier to start fresh, I have the
server up and running.  I am able to join machines to the domain.  Users
then also have the ability to log in from any joined machine and have
thier files and settings follow them (no easy task).  I however have one
problem left I am unable to solve.  When a user first logs onto the
server everything goes well the profile is created and all is good.
That is until they log out then log back in either from the same machine
or a different one.  Whith the second and all subsequent logons note pad
opens on the desktop with Desktop in the title bar and this in the body:

[.ShellClassInfo]
LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-21787

There is no Dektop.ini file in the desktop but there is one in My
Documents (as windows uses the for folder settings all over the place I
do not believe that it is for the desk top) it is the only other
Desktop.ini file I can find.  Here is what it contains:

[DeleteOnCopy]
Owner=cgurne00
Personalized=5
PersonalizedName=My Documents

Any suggestions to help this will be greatly appreciated.  Also here is
a copy of my smc.conf file:

# Basic smb.conf for working PDC

[global]
    netbios name = ARDVARC
    workgroup = GAUACA
    server string = Gaudior's PDC SAMBA server %v %h
    add machine script = /usr/sbin/useradd -s /bin/false \-d /dev/null %u
    security = user
    encrypt passwords = yes
    smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd
    local master = yes
    OS level = 64
    domain master = yes
    preferred master = yes
    domain logons = yes
    enable privileges = yes
    logon drive = H

[public]
    comment = For Testing Only Please Do Not Save Here
    path = /home/public
    read only = no

[netlogon]
    comment = Net Logon Service
    path = /home/netlogon
    read only = yes
    write list = +ntadmin

[homes]
    comment = Home
    valid users = %S
    read only = no
    browsable = no

[profile]
    comment = User Profiles
    path = /profiles
    valid users = %U
    create mode = 0600
    directory mode = 0700
    writable = yes
    browsable = no


_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Wed Jul  4 12:41:28 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:41:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA running as a PDC
Message-ID: <1183567288.7123.33.camel@daddymobile>

I have been working on getting a SAMBA server set up as a PDC at the
charter schoolwere we hold our meetings.  Well after several reinstalls,
due to borking it so bad it was just easier to start fresh, I have the
server up and running.  I am able to join machines to the domain.  Users
then also have the ability to log in from any joined machine and have
thier files and settings follow them (no easy task).  I however have one
problem left I am unable to solve.  When a user first logs onto the
server everything goes well the profile is created and all is good.
That is until they log out then log back in either from the same machine
or a different one.  Whith the second and all subsequent logons note pad
opens on the desktop with Desktop in the title bar and this in the body:

[.ShellClassInfo]
LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-21787

There is no Dektop.ini file in the desktop but there is one in My
Documents (as windows uses the for folder settings all over the place I
do not believe that it is for the desk top) it is the only other
Desktop.ini file I can find.  Here is what it contains:

[DeleteOnCopy]
Owner=cgurne00
Personalized=5
PersonalizedName=My Documents

Any suggestions to help this will be greatly appreciated.  Also here is
a copy of my smc.conf file:

# Basic smb.conf for working PDC

[global]
        netbios name = ARDVARC
        workgroup = GAUACA
        server string = Gaudior's PDC SAMBA server %v %h
        add machine script = /usr/sbin/useradd -s /bin/false
\-d /dev/null %u
        security = user
        encrypt passwords = yes
        smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd
        local master = yes
        OS level = 64
        domain master = yes
        preferred master = yes
        domain logons = yes
        enable privileges = yes
        logon drive = H

[public]
        comment = For Testing Only Please Do Not Save Here
        path = /home/public
        read only = no

[netlogon]
        comment = Net Logon Service
        path = /home/netlogon
        read only = yes
        write list = +ntadmin

[homes]
        comment = Home
        valid users = %S
        read only = no
        browsable = no

[profile]
        comment = User Profiles
        path = /profiles
        valid users = %U
        create mode = 0600
        directory mode = 0700
        writable = yes
        browsable = no





From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Wed Jul  4 14:53:23 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:53:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA running as a PDC
In-Reply-To: <1183567288.7123.33.camel@daddymobile>
References: <1183567288.7123.33.camel@daddymobile>
Message-ID: <1183575203.7123.38.camel@daddymobile>

Sorry for the double post meant send this one elswhere please only reply
to the other post
On Wed, 2007-07-04 at 12:41 -0400, Mathew Enders wrote:
> I have been working on getting a SAMBA server set up as a PDC at the
> charter schoolwere we hold our meetings.  Well after several reinstalls,
> due to borking it so bad it was just easier to start fresh, I have the
> server up and running.  I am able to join machines to the domain.  Users
> then also have the ability to log in from any joined machine and have
> thier files and settings follow them (no easy task).  I however have one
> problem left I am unable to solve.  When a user first logs onto the
> server everything goes well the profile is created and all is good.
> That is until they log out then log back in either from the same machine
> or a different one.  Whith the second and all subsequent logons note pad
> opens on the desktop with Desktop in the title bar and this in the body:
> 
> [.ShellClassInfo]
> LocalizedResourceName=@%SystemRoot%\system32\shell32.dll,-21787
> 
> There is no Dektop.ini file in the desktop but there is one in My
> Documents (as windows uses the for folder settings all over the place I
> do not believe that it is for the desk top) it is the only other
> Desktop.ini file I can find.  Here is what it contains:
> 
> [DeleteOnCopy]
> Owner=cgurne00
> Personalized=5
> PersonalizedName=My Documents
> 
> Any suggestions to help this will be greatly appreciated.  Also here is
> a copy of my smc.conf file:
> 
> # Basic smb.conf for working PDC
> 
> [global]
>         netbios name = ARDVARC
>         workgroup = GAUACA
>         server string = Gaudior's PDC SAMBA server %v %h
>         add machine script = /usr/sbin/useradd -s /bin/false
> \-d /dev/null %u
>         security = user
>         encrypt passwords = yes
>         smb passwd file = /etc/samba/smbpasswd
>         local master = yes
>         OS level = 64
>         domain master = yes
>         preferred master = yes
>         domain logons = yes
>         enable privileges = yes
>         logon drive = H
> 
> [public]
>         comment = For Testing Only Please Do Not Save Here
>         path = /home/public
>         read only = no
> 
> [netlogon]
>         comment = Net Logon Service
>         path = /home/netlogon
>         read only = yes
>         write list = +ntadmin
> 
> [homes]
>         comment = Home
>         valid users = %S
>         read only = no
>         browsable = no
> 
> [profile]
>         comment = User Profiles
>         path = /profiles
>         valid users = %U
>         create mode = 0600
>         directory mode = 0700
>         writable = yes
>         browsable = no
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  4 16:12:43 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 16:12:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
In-Reply-To: <295494.856.qm@web55502.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <295494.856.qm@web55502.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707041312u5931d3eas8dc71680bb69c2e9@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/4/07, Jack Freeman wrote:
>
> I'm looking for something cheep cheep cheep that will run my AMD 1800+ and
> the gig of 3200 RAM that i have. other then that i dont care. Just want
> something to get my server back up untill i can afford a new nicer box.

Right.  How's this?  Decent, cheap, and still useful later... even I'm tempted!

<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813185074>

-- Mikey


From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  5 01:50:59 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 22:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Kernel panic
Message-ID: <676953.70948.qm@web55510.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Hay that looks like it will work for me, if the store in town dosent have anything I think I'll go with it.

----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2007 3:12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Kernel panic

On 7/4/07, Jack Freeman wrote:
>
> I'm looking for something cheep cheep cheep that will run my AMD 1800+ and
> the gig of 3200 RAM that i have. other then that i dont care. Just want
> something to get my server back up untill i can afford a new nicer box.

Right.  How's this?  Decent, cheap, and still useful later... even I'm tempted!

<http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813185074>

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug







       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070704/f21d4852/attachment-0001.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  5 08:05:41 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 05:05:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <AA-B380211F14DB7F296AB295599093F798-ZZ@fipprd24>
Message-ID: <23909.55104.qm@web37907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

As I said I have an off brand Motherboard.  I downloaded OpenSUSE 10.2 this week and it was able to auto detect the hardware, that was great however I'm getting curruption errors for the disk image.
   
  This Version has more SATA drive support.
   
  David 
  

DRIVERAY at ameritech.net wrote:
  I haven't tried SuSE 10.2 on a note book, haven't tried zen, and
I use KDE and thunderbird, not gnome and evolution, so I can't
add to Peter's comments.


Some of the issues I have encountered so far:
There is no kernel level automounter. The actually did away with
subfs with 10.1, most discussion of this seems to date from march
of '06. Subfs was a rather ugly cludge, but it did work, and I
had gotten used to it with 10.0. Now automounting of CDs and
other removable media is provided only processes of KDE (or I
guess gnome). If you boot to command line, or use a light weight
desktop, you will have to use manual mounting which means setting
up sudo, or giving all user's root. At least this is what I have
been able to discover so far. The system I set up does in fact
use KDE, so it is, so far, a theoretical problem.

The other glaring issue I encountered was that the first online
update decided to scramble my grub menu. I had set it up the way
I wanted it, but the online update decided to add back duplicates
of some entries I had commented out, removed enteries I had
added, and scrambled the menu order. It wasn't hard to put it
back the way I wanted, but grrrr!

Besides these things it seems, so far, to be pretty solid.

Raymond McLaughlin

Peter Bart wrote:

>On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 11:36 -0700, David Lane wrote:
>> What are the issues with OpenSuSE?
>>
>> I was concidering moving to it.
>
>David,
>I run opensuse 10.2 on an IBM Thinkpad T30. There is a hack to
>get power consumption down to acceptable levels when suspended.
>The "Zen" updater simply sucks, as does the new improved main
>menu. I killed both, the former in favor of manually updating
>and the latter in favor of the "traditional" Gnome menu. Network
>manager sometimes goes astray, but it's not just opensuse and
>the same for evolution. All in all I'd say I'm very happy with
>it. It seems rock solid, suspends and resumes w/o incident. I
>was up to 45 days uptime before it mistakenly got rebooted.
>Battery life isn't the greatest compared to Ubuntu running on an
>identical machine, but okay. Old batteries and all. I will be
>loading opensuse on this second machine when I get some spare
>time, Ubuntu just doesn't dot as many "i's" as opensuse. Please
>bear in mind I can only compare to Ubuntu and the Maemo flavor
>of Debian. For my money, it just works.

>Best Regards,
>Peter Bart 


_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


 
---------------------------------
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070705/a3d10bc8/attachment-0001.html>

From dcs.galco at gmail.com  Thu Jul  5 10:00:10 2007
From: dcs.galco at gmail.com (Deepak Chandrashekar)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 10:00:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
Message-ID: <bd2841150707050700r5d0b8bbbjf1302bdaa2b185a5@mail.gmail.com>

Additionally, you could also check the HKLM/Software/Microsoft/Windows/Run
registry branch for any programs started automatically.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070705/5d9342e4/attachment-0001.html>

From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Thu Jul  5 14:24:46 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:24:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
In-Reply-To: <747640.63458.qm@web82312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <747640.63458.qm@web82312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1183659886.7123.49.camel@daddymobile>

Thank you to those who replied.  The answer turns out to be not SAMBA
related as I thought but a MS issue.  The answer is here:

http://support.microsoft.com/?id=330132





From DRIVERAY at ameritech.net  Thu Jul  5 15:58:22 2007
From: DRIVERAY at ameritech.net (DRIVERAY at ameritech.net)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:58:22 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
Message-ID: <AA-7B063F687DC12A166CF89DE61D7CF097-ZZ@fipprd24>

>As I said I have an off brand Motherboard.

Have you torture test this mobo? Boot into knoppix (runlevel 3)
and import the kerenel source tree, and run continuous kernel
compiles for 24 hour or so. If it does this without errors, then
run memtest for another day. 

Also there are kernel work arounds for known buggy BIOs, but they
often don't auto-detect.

>I downloaded OpenSUSE 10.2 this week and it was able to auto
>detect the hardware, that was great however I'm getting
>corruption errors for the disk image.
 
Do you mean the fresh disk or iso is failing the install's built
in self test?
Do you have a known good system you can use do download and burn
the ISO(s) on? I recommend the DVD over the CD set if you can
swing it.

>This Version has more SATA drive support.

The system I set up is my first with SATA. Sound like I held off
about the the right amount.

One big improvement I see relative to previous SuSE versions is
in the dependencies in the RPMs. Previously I would run into
situations where I would want to remove a few unused packages to
free up some disk space only, to be told other installed packages
depended on the one I wanted to delete. When I elected to delete
these I soon encountered an absurd cascade of dependencies that
forced me to abort the endeavor or else tell the system to ignore
a huge bunch of dependencies with out any idea how important any
of them really were. In one case I discovered some sound related
packages had been installed on a computer that had no sound card.
After about three iterations of dependency checks I was at the
point of being told that I would also need to uninstall the X
windowing system. Huh?

In SuSE 10.2 I did some package pruning after the install, and
the few dependencies I was shown were few and entirely reasonable.

Raymond McLaughlin

>David 



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  5 15:15:00 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <AA-7B063F687DC12A166CF89DE61D7CF097-ZZ@fipprd24>
Message-ID: <20070705191500.51898.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The disk passes checksum when it is burned.  BUT it fails the self test at install.  I have burned it 3 times. 
   
  On this same system I loaded windows and stopped at the OS Key. when it booted up again it showed the normal windows logo. Though I am learning a lot by fire, It will be good to move foward on my projects.
   
  I have a choice Order OpenSUSE Boxed, or get an other botherboard (that supports, SATA-(2), DDR2, Core? 2 Duo E6600) I really dont want to putt the CPU off that motherboard. 
   
  And NO, I'm not making it into a windows pc.  
   
  
DRIVERAY at ameritech.net wrote:
  >As I said I have an off brand Motherboard.

Have you torture test this mobo? Boot into knoppix (runlevel 3)
and import the kerenel source tree, and run continuous kernel
compiles for 24 hour or so. If it does this without errors, then
run memtest for another day. 

Also there are kernel work arounds for known buggy BIOs, but they
often don't auto-detect.

>I downloaded OpenSUSE 10.2 this week and it was able to auto
>detect the hardware, that was great however I'm getting
>corruption errors for the disk image.

Do you mean the fresh disk or iso is failing the install's built
in self test?
Do you have a known good system you can use do download and burn
the ISO(s) on? I recommend the DVD over the CD set if you can
swing it.

>This Version has more SATA drive support.

The system I set up is my first with SATA. Sound like I held off
about the the right amount.

One big improvement I see relative to previous SuSE versions is
in the dependencies in the RPMs. Previously I would run into
situations where I would want to remove a few unused packages to
free up some disk space only, to be told other installed packages
depended on the one I wanted to delete. When I elected to delete
these I soon encountered an absurd cascade of dependencies that
forced me to abort the endeavor or else tell the system to ignore
a huge bunch of dependencies with out any idea how important any
of them really were. In one case I discovered some sound related
packages had been installed on a computer that had no sound card.
After about three iterations of dependency checks I was at the
point of being told that I would also need to uninstall the X
windowing system. Huh?

In SuSE 10.2 I did some package pruning after the install, and
the few dependencies I was shown were few and entirely reasonable.

Raymond McLaughlin

>David 

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070705/47b034d2/attachment-0001.html>

From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Jul  5 16:40:57 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 16:40:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <20070705191500.51898.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AA-7B063F687DC12A166CF89DE61D7CF097-ZZ@fipprd24>
	<20070705191500.51898.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070705164057.067e672c@Nokia-N800-10>

On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The disk passes checksum when it is burned.  BUT it fails the self
> test at install.  I have burned it 3 times. 

	From what I've been told the selftest is crucial to opensuse.
Try using a different box and maybe a different connection. If it fails
the selftest it's no good. Check the archives at <mosg.org>, they
helped me install and then upgrade.

Best Regards, 
-- 
Peter The Plumber sm on the Road
State Licensed Plumber
State Certified Backflow Device Tester
Factory Trained Boiler Install/Service
<http://petertheplumber.net>
24h Service 313.215.5175


From rborromeo at the5spot.com  Thu Jul  5 17:36:10 2007
From: rborromeo at the5spot.com (rborromeo at the5spot.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 17:36:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] SAMBA as a PDC
References: <747640.63458.qm@web82312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1183659886.7123.49.camel@daddymobile>
Message-ID: <056a01c7bf4c$816443c0$0300c80a@terzo>

Has anyone been able to get Vista to work with Samba as a PDC? I've followed 
all the write ups about changing the Security policy to allow NTLM 
authentication but it just doesn't work for me.



From Stan at mcomputersolutions.com  Thu Jul  5 22:46:50 2007
From: Stan at mcomputersolutions.com (Stan Green)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 22:46:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] NFS Question
Message-ID: <200707052246.50860.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>

I have two Linux boxes. One is running as an nfs server and the other is the 
client.  On the server I export / which has a directory /Data. I have the 
device /dev/md0 mounted to /Data. All seems fine on the server. However when 
I mount / on the client, I can see the /Data directory but not the data that 
is on /dev/md0. A ls on /Data, from the client, shows empty. An ls on the 
server produces the expected result.

One more thing, if it means anything, if I use smb to mount /, everything 
works as expected. So my thought is it can be done with nfs, but I cannot 
find anything that addresses this issue.

How do I configure either the server or client to be able to see the /Data 
directory?

Thanks,
Stan Green


From set at pobox.com  Fri Jul  6 00:09:19 2007
From: set at pobox.com (Paul)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:09:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] NFS Question
In-Reply-To: <200707052246.50860.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
References: <200707052246.50860.Stan@mcomputersolutions.com>
Message-ID: <20070706040919.GA5850@squish.home.loc>

Stan Green <Stan at mcomputersolutions.com>, on Thu Jul 05, 2007 [10:46:50 PM] said:
> I have two Linux boxes. One is running as an nfs server and the other is the 
> client.  On the server I export / which has a directory /Data. I have the 
> device /dev/md0 mounted to /Data. All seems fine on the server. However when 
> I mount / on the client, I can see the /Data directory but not the data that 
> is on /dev/md0. A ls on /Data, from the client, shows empty. An ls on the 
> server produces the expected result.
> 
> One more thing, if it means anything, if I use smb to mount /, everything 
> works as expected. So my thought is it can be done with nfs, but I cannot 
> find anything that addresses this issue.
> 
> How do I configure either the server or client to be able to see the /Data 
> directory?
> 
> Thanks,
> Stan Green

	man 5 exports
	/nohide

Paul
set at pobox.com


From otakurider at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 09:19:58 2007
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:19:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
Message-ID: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>

Any one played with the Radeon 9200 and duel monitors with Fedora or
Debian.  Looking to update my Fedora 5 with Matrox G450 duel monitors to
something that can do 3D  want to try beryl or Compiz.  If anyone has any
recommendations for video card (must have duel video monitor outputs) 2 or 3
DVI is better but mix will work.


Thanks.

Pat
VP
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070706/89e9c121/attachment-0001.html>

From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Fri Jul  6 09:51:26 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:51:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
Message-ID: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hi,

Is there a way to find out the name of the font that is being used by default in xterm. I open an xterm on one of the linux machines today and the font is 'hug'. I would like to use a smaller version of the same font.

TIA for any help

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From tmorris at ugs.com  Fri Jul  6 10:23:46 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:23:46 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Office 2007 overhead
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90706272107p73b3a2d2n40972fbaace3a98e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323C5CE@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

It's all the features man! They aren't free, ya know! OpenOffice...
Please,  like it has even close to the features of Office 2007...
Guuuuaaaaddd


(I'm being sarcastic, of course)


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Jeff Hanson
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:08 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: [mdlug] Office 2007 overhead

I was attempting to install Office Ultimate 2007 DVD on XP in VMWare.
I didn't have enough space  so I started disabling options.  After
setting EVERYTHING to "Not Available" it still needs 791MB.  With
everything set to "Run from My Computer" it wants 1867MB.  Full OOo +
Java 1.6 totals 328MB.  Why does Office need that much space?  Is the
EULA that big?
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From DRIVERAY at ameritech.net  Fri Jul  6 12:12:13 2007
From: DRIVERAY at ameritech.net (DRIVERAY at ameritech.net)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:12:13 -0800
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
Message-ID: <AA-25EDA3BC388E48D1CC9913FAFA875C25-ZZ@fipprd25>

David Lane wrote:
>The disk passes checksum when it is burned.

The disk itself, or the iso file?

> BUT it fails the self test at install.
> I have burned it 3 times.

Have you tried starting the install process up to, and including
the self test on another system? If it checks out OK then your
new system can't calculate md5summ correctly, and wouldn't rely
on it for anything. If, on the other hand, the new disks all fail
the self tests on another machine I would suspect that the
md5sums set was out of date for the files on the disk, and I
would ignore the errors and proceed with the installation.

I hope this helps.
Raymond McLaughlin



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  6 11:52:43 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 08:52:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] OpenSuSE ???
In-Reply-To: <AA-25EDA3BC388E48D1CC9913FAFA875C25-ZZ@fipprd25>
Message-ID: <100947.56070.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

It is still pointing to the mother board or the cd/dvd. (I think)
   
  

DRIVERAY at ameritech.net wrote:
  David Lane wrote:
>The disk passes checksum when it is burned.

The disk itself, or the iso file?

> BUT it fails the self test at install.
> I have burned it 3 times.

Have you tried starting the install process up to, and including
the self test on another system? If it checks out OK then your
new system can't calculate md5summ correctly, and wouldn't rely
on it for anything. If, on the other hand, the new disks all fail
the self tests on another machine I would suspect that the
md5sums set was out of date for the files on the disk, and I
would ignore the errors and proceed with the installation.

I hope this helps.
Raymond McLaughlin

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070706/bc4a0308/attachment-0001.html>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 13:43:05 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:43:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
In-Reply-To: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707061043k28a732fdmded768c53f0c964@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/07, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:
> Any one played with the Radeon 9200 and duel monitors with Fedora or Debian.
>  Looking to update my Fedora 5 with Matrox G450 duel monitors to something
> that can do 3D  want to try beryl or Compiz.  If anyone has any
> recommendations for video card (must have duel video monitor outputs) 2 or 3
> DVI is better but mix will work.

Last time I tried dual-head with Compiz/Beryl it didn't work.  The
second head was always black.  X limitations may be fixed in the next
version of X.  If you are just running dual monitors then it might not
be a problem.


From brian at dangerbacon.com  Fri Jul  6 14:16:30 2007
From: brian at dangerbacon.com (Brian)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:16:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
In-Reply-To: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <6f64e9540707061116v6015933bm5e6446ac3ae7f321@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/07, R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there a way to find out the name of the font that is being used by default in xterm. I open an xterm on one of the linux machines today and the font is 'hug'. I would like to use a smaller version of the same font.
>
I'm not certain on how to tell which font your using but by holding
ctrl and right clicking in the xterm you can change the font size
manually.

-- 
Fati
"It's not stupid, it's advaaanced!" - Tallest Purple


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Fri Jul  6 15:25:57 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:25:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
Message-ID: <31561007.1183749957541.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Thanks, that really helped. 

I came in this morning and used my script for opening an xterm which basically did..

xterm -fg white -bg black -fa menu12 -title $1

and the font size was huge. I don't know why I had '-fa' instead of '-fn' and what 'menu12' was but it did give me an xterm with font acceptable to me. But something that the sys admins had done probably changed. BTW, I accessing this machine from Windoze through Exceed.
 
-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian <brian at dangerbacon.com>
>Sent: Jul 6, 2007 2:16 PM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
>
>On 7/6/07, R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Is there a way to find out the name of the font that is being used by default in xterm. I open an xterm on one of the linux machines today and the font is 'hug'. I would like to use a smaller version of the same font.
>>
>I'm not certain on how to tell which font your using but by holding
>ctrl and right clicking in the xterm you can change the font size
>manually.
>
>-- 
>Fati
>"It's not stupid, it's advaaanced!" - Tallest Purple
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  6 16:07:44 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 13:07:44 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
In-Reply-To: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200707061307.45062.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

On Friday 06 July 2007, - wrote:
> If anyone has any recommendations for video card (must have duel
> video monitor outputs) 2 or 3 DVI is better but mix will work.?

PNY(?) NVidia GT 7800.  Dual DVI.  Great performance on 1920x1200 flat 
panel.  Plenty fast.  Painless driver support in Kubuntu.

ATI is still playing catch-up on Linux driver support.  Cannot emphasize 
the last point enough.  My brother, for example, still insists on 
purchasing ATI hardware and then tries to run Linux with it.  Arghhh!  
If you have a choice, just buy Nvidia.  The drivers just work, and work 
well.

Cheers,

Mike


-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  6 18:00:40 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:00:40 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707061043k28a732fdmded768c53f0c964@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
	<b02c40e90707061043k28a732fdmded768c53f0c964@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200707061500.40076.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

On Friday 06 July 2007, Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On 7/6/07, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Any one played with the Radeon 9200 and duel monitors with Fedora
> > or Debian. Looking to update my Fedora 5 with Matrox G450 duel
> > monitors to something that can do 3D  want to try beryl or Compiz. 
> > If anyone has any recommendations for video card (must have duel
> > video monitor outputs) 2 or 3 DVI is better but mix will work.
>
> Last time I tried dual-head with Compiz/Beryl it didn't work.  The
> second head was always black.  X limitations may be fixed in the next
> version of X.  If you are just running dual monitors then it might
> not be a problem.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

Beryl now works with Dual monitors -- one big box spans them both 
(although there is an option for a box on each screen too).

For Kubuntu 7.04 fans, it works nearly out of the box.  Simply install 
auquamarine, beryl-kubuntu, beryl-manager, and emerald (the last should 
be optional).  And then, add composite switches in xorg.conf:
...
Section "Device"
    Identifier     "Device0" # depends on your config
    Driver         "nvidia"
    Option         "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps"
    Option         "AddARGBGLXVisuals" "True"
    VendorName     "NVIDIA Corporation"
EndSection
...
Section "DRI"
    Mode 0666
EndSection

Section "Extensions"
    Option "Composite" "Enable"
EndSection

Volia!  Restart X, and spin da cube.


-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Jul  6 23:47:40 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 23:47:40 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Benchmark Data Needed
Message-ID: <468F0CDC.6080308@comcast.net>

This is Garry's wife, Sue.  I am writing something on Linux for a
college course & need some data.  Does anyone have any websites with
recent data of Linux speed vs Windows speed?  I'd also like to pin down
the number of lines of source code in Linux vs the number in Windows if
possible.

Does anyone out there have any good places to look?

Thanks!

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From set at pobox.com  Sat Jul  7 02:11:29 2007
From: set at pobox.com (Paul)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 02:11:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Benchmark Data Needed
In-Reply-To: <468F0CDC.6080308@comcast.net>
References: <468F0CDC.6080308@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070707061129.GB5850@squish.home.loc>

Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net>, on Fri Jul 06, 2007 [11:47:40 PM] said:
> This is Garry's wife, Sue.  I am writing something on Linux for a
> college course & need some data.  Does anyone have any websites with
> recent data of Linux speed vs Windows speed?  I'd also like to pin down
> the number of lines of source code in Linux vs the number in Windows if
> possible.
> 
> Does anyone out there have any good places to look?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- 

	Hi;

	Speed can be hard to pin down; are you talking about how fast
OpenOffice loads when using Gnome as your window manager, vs. windows?
How fast the machine goes from cold boot to login prompt? Which can
serve the most web pages/sec? (static or dynamic?) Raw disk performance?
[Google keywords to search on here would include 'linux windows benchmarks
comparision' etc.]
	One would think the lines of code would be easier to quantify,
but thats tricky too. Windows Vista is generally pegged at 50 million LOC,
but thats the whole distribution. Distributions like Debian can weigh in
at much more than that, but thats because Debian includes 10's of thousands
of programs. A more fair comparison would involve just the kernel code.
I dont know what the Vista kernel has, but the linux kernel is currently
about 8 million LOC. But if you track down the LOC for Vista's kernel,
you should take into account that the Linux kernel LOC is over half
drivers and over a quarter code for different architectures. Windows
at best supported 2 architectures, and includes very few drivers. Linux
has wads of drivers in the kernel code base (very few drivers
exist outside the kernel code base), and supports 25 different
cpu architectures. The linux kernel almost certainly has a much
much smaller core than Vista.

Paul
set at pobox.com

https://ols2006.108.redhat.com/2007/Reprints/kroah-hartman-Reprint.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code




From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul  7 11:06:03 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 11:06:03 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
Message-ID: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>

Hello,

Except for the fact that everything was done on a Linux machine
using Linux tools, this topic does not actually involve Linux.
But since a lot of people on this list are versed in networking,
I thought it might be appropriate to present it here.

Quite frequently I receive spam that seems to originate from
bona fide IP addresses that would not likely be in the spamming
business.  For example, just today I noticed a spam message with
both the "From:" and "Reply-to:" fields containing abacus21.com,
which is a legitimate business located in Buffalo, NY, serving the
hospitality industry.  Of course, these fields can be spoofed, but
the complete header does show the message as originating at
abacus21.com:

Return-Path: <a-8 at abacus21.com>
Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
	by xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eaDn013984
	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:36 -0400
X-ClientAddr: 221.133.163.182
Received: from [221.133.163.182] ([221.133.163.182])
	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eWWn013906
	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:33 -0400
Received: from [221.133.163.182] by abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:40:35 -0900

(The purpose of the "xxxxxxxxxx.xxx" is to obscure the actual receiving
address, which is not important for this discussion.)

The host command indicates that the originating address is definitely
abacus21.com:

[/]# host abacus21.com
abacus21.com mail is handled by 20 abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 20 abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogicmx.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 30 abacus21.com.inbound30.mxlogic.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 30 abacus21.com.inbound30.mxlogicmx.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 10 abacus21.com.inbound10.mxlogic.net.
abacus21.com mail is handled by 10 abacus21.com.inbound10.mxlogicmx.net.

Whenever I take the time to check, I can find many other examples
of this.  Just last week, I spotted joespools.com, a swimming pool
installer from Georgia, as another source of spam.  There have been
countless other cases.

Is this an example of the fabled Botnet or Zombie operation?  That is,
could abacus21.com have been hijacked for the purpose of sending spam?
Or is the explanation just a simple matter of abacus21.com being
a relay?

AK



From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Sat Jul  7 02:48:17 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Sat,  7 Jul 2007 02:48:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Default font in xterm
In-Reply-To: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	(rkannan@peoplepc.com)
References: <8200815.1183729886797.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20070707064817.54EEE20AAE9@starfox.local>

R,

> Is there a way to find out the name of the font that is being used by
> default in xterm. I open an xterm on one of the linux machines today and the
> font is 'hug'. I would like to use a smaller version of the same font.

You can query X resources interactively with appres(1).

    bash> appres XTerm | grep -i font
    ...
    *VT100*font:  -misc-fixed-medium-r-*-*-13-120-75-75-c-60-iso10646-1
    ...

See X(7) and appres(1) for further details.



Most X clients including xterm, select their default font, geometry, size,
... based on "X resources".  X resources are key-value pairs selected by
prefix string from files found in directories like /usr/X11/lib/app-defaults/
.

Traditionally, resource names (keys) for an application begin with the
capitalized application name, preceded by a capital X if the name
begins with an x.  xterm(1) searches for XTerm.

Hopefully helpful,
--
Dr. B


From millerc at cantonpl.org  Sat Jul  7 14:40:01 2007
From: millerc at cantonpl.org (Carl T. Miller)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
In-Reply-To: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <52952.216.144.215.245.1183833601.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>

A. Kalten wrote:
> Quite frequently I receive spam that seems to originate from
> bona fide IP addresses that would not likely be in the spamming
> business.  For example, just today I noticed a spam message with
> both the "From:" and "Reply-to:" fields containing abacus21.com,
> which is a legitimate business located in Buffalo, NY, serving the
> hospitality industry.  Of course, these fields can be spoofed, but
> the complete header does show the message as originating at
> abacus21.com:

Not really.  The only header that you can believe is the
first Received header.  If it says it came from a server
you can trust, you can then believe the next Received
header.  Keep doing this until you come to the first
server you don't know or trust.  Notice that means you
can't trust that the Return-Path, To, From or Reply-To
headers, unless you trust every Received header.

> Return-Path: <a-8 at abacus21.com>
> Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
> 	by xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eaDn013984
> 	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:36 -0400
> X-ClientAddr: 221.133.163.182
> Received: from [221.133.163.182] ([221.133.163.182])
> 	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id
> l678eWWn013906
> 	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:33 -0400
> Received: from [221.133.163.182] by abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net;
> Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:40:35 -0900

Let's look at your headers.  The first Received shows
that xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (this must be your mail server)
received it from barium.ypsi.provide.net.  We can likely
trust them, since they are likely your ISP.  The second
header says it came from 221.133.163.182.  Since we don't
know who that is and they don't have a hostname associated
with that address, we can't trust anything else in this
message to be accurate.  Thus we don't know whether or
not it did come from abacus21.com.

> The host command indicates that the originating address is definitely
> abacus21.com:
>
> [/]# host abacus21.com
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 20 abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 20 abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogicmx.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 30 abacus21.com.inbound30.mxlogic.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 30 abacus21.com.inbound30.mxlogicmx.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 10 abacus21.com.inbound10.mxlogic.net.
> abacus21.com mail is handled by 10 abacus21.com.inbound10.mxlogicmx.net.

All the host command shows is what IP addresses abacus21.com
uses to accept email.  It doesn't tell us a thing about the
message you received.

> Whenever I take the time to check, I can find many other examples
> of this.  Just last week, I spotted joespools.com, a swimming pool
> installer from Georgia, as another source of spam.  There have been
> countless other cases.
>
> Is this an example of the fabled Botnet or Zombie operation?  That is,
> could abacus21.com have been hijacked for the purpose of sending spam?
> Or is the explanation just a simple matter of abacus21.com being
> a relay?

It's most likely from a botnet or zombie.  There's big money
out there for people who can automate the delivery of spam
while hiding their identities.

c




From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul  7 15:32:59 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:32:59 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
In-Reply-To: <52952.216.144.215.245.1183833601.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
References: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
	<52952.216.144.215.245.1183833601.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
Message-ID: <20070707153259.b058832c.akalten@comcast.net>

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
"Carl T. Miller" <millerc at cantonpl.org> wrote:

> 
> Let's look at your headers.  The first Received shows
> that xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (this must be your mail server)
> received it from barium.ypsi.provide.net.  We can likely
> trust them, since they are likely your ISP.  The second
> header says it came from 221.133.163.182.  Since we don't
> know who that is and they don't have a hostname associated
> with that address, we can't trust anything else in this
> message to be accurate.  Thus we don't know whether or
> not it did come from abacus21.com.
> 
 
> It's most likely from a botnet or zombie.  There's big money
> out there for people who can automate the delivery of spam
> while hiding their identities.
> 

OK.  I see what is happening.  For some reason I had overlooked
221.133.163.182.

The main point is that abacus21.com is not a part
of this botnet.  At first I actually thought about
notifying abacus21.com to tell them that their mail server
might be compromised.  But the header information indicates
that it is most likely just a deception.

This pattern is similar in a lot of other spam that I
receive.  For example, here is another header of the
same form:

Return-Path: <a-acero at aef.wh.uni-dortmund.de>
Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
	by myserver.biz (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l67GSgDF021782
	for <info at myserver.biz>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:28:43 -0400
X-ClientAddr: 91.15.216.178
Received: from p5B0FD8B2.dip.t-dialin.net (p5B0FD8B2.dip.t-dialin.net [91.15.216.178])
	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l67GSYEK021726
	for <info at northernlightsphoto.biz>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:28:34 -0400
Received: from [91.15.216.178] by aef.wh.uni-dortmund.de; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 16:28:22 -0100


In this case, even though uni-dortmund.de is a legitimate
university in Germany, the fact that it appears following this dubious
91.15.216.178 address makes the uni-dortmund.de location just another
part of the deception.  Also, the info says uni-dortmund.de only
receives from 91.15.216.178 but doesn't send it anywhere else.

Thanks for clearing this up.

AK



From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  8 02:04:16 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 23:04:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] new system
Message-ID: <657424.39685.qm@web55509.mail.re4.yahoo.com>

Ok my caps on my mobo decided to swell and instead of getting a new mobo
i decided to wate until i can afford a new system.
I wanted to get imput on what proccer, mobo, hd, and power supply. Im
going to be using this for a web/mail server. I would like to use it
for a media server that i can use for just internal use. Looking for a
good distro to use for this as well.

thanks 
Jack






       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070707/bd46fc6d/attachment-0001.html>

From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Sun Jul  8 08:50:24 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (dean)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 08:50:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
Message-ID: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>

Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:  
Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have 
converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?

At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  

Does it have to do with 3d graphics?   Hypermesh, Ansa, and Star CD all 
use graphics, and they all exist for linux.   We use them on linux.    
And abaqus, I think.   

Is it politics and/or M$ money?     

TIA, &, Scratching my head, Dean





From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Sun Jul  8 10:11:03 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 10:11:03 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
In-Reply-To: <20070707153259.b058832c.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>	<52952.216.144.215.245.1183833601.squirrel@mail.cantonpl.org>
	<20070707153259.b058832c.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4690F077.2080204@starline-ent.com>

A. Kalten wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
> "Carl T. Miller" <millerc at cantonpl.org> wrote:
> 
>> Let's look at your headers.  The first Received shows
>> that xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (this must be your mail server)
>> received it from barium.ypsi.provide.net.  We can likely
>> trust them, since they are likely your ISP.  The second
>> header says it came from 221.133.163.182.  Since we don't
>> know who that is and they don't have a hostname associated
>> with that address, we can't trust anything else in this
>> message to be accurate.  Thus we don't know whether or
>> not it did come from abacus21.com.
>>
>  
>> It's most likely from a botnet or zombie.  There's big money
>> out there for people who can automate the delivery of spam
>> while hiding their identities.
>>
> 
> OK.  I see what is happening.  For some reason I had overlooked
> 221.133.163.182.
> 
> The main point is that abacus21.com is not a part
> of this botnet.  At first I actually thought about
> notifying abacus21.com to tell them that their mail server
> might be compromised.  But the header information indicates
> that it is most likely just a deception.
> 
> This pattern is similar in a lot of other spam that I
> receive.  For example, here is another header of the
> same form:
> 
> Return-Path: <a-acero at aef.wh.uni-dortmund.de>
> Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
> 	by myserver.biz (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l67GSgDF021782
> 	for <info at myserver.biz>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:28:43 -0400
> X-ClientAddr: 91.15.216.178
> Received: from p5B0FD8B2.dip.t-dialin.net (p5B0FD8B2.dip.t-dialin.net [91.15.216.178])
> 	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l67GSYEK021726
> 	for <info at northernlightsphoto.biz>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 12:28:34 -0400
> Received: from [91.15.216.178] by aef.wh.uni-dortmund.de; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 16:28:22 -0100
> 
> 
> In this case, even though uni-dortmund.de is a legitimate
> university in Germany, the fact that it appears following this dubious
> 91.15.216.178 address makes the uni-dortmund.de location just another
> part of the deception.  Also, the info says uni-dortmund.de only
> receives from 91.15.216.178 but doesn't send it anywhere else.
> 
> Thanks for clearing this up.
> 
> AK
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
If you want to find where an IP address is from go here:
http://www.ip-adress.com

The first address is from 'Korea, Republic of'

hopefully helpful

BD


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 13:39:13 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:39:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
References: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707081039t75012d9y818e3f6d618fe7c7@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/07, dean <mdlug at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:
> Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have
> converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?

http://www.tech-edv.co.at/lunix/CADlinks.html
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=165630&page=9 (note last post)
http://www.freelists.org/archives/cad-linux/

I'm a PCB Designer.  There are some PCB design apps, Kicad and gEDA
but I haven't tried to design anything in them yet.  The primary
player in the electronics CAD market is Altium (formerly Protel) and
it's unlikely that they will port to Linux because they can't even get
their Windows-based products stable.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 17:10:08 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:10:08 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] new system
In-Reply-To: <657424.39685.qm@web55509.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <657424.39685.qm@web55509.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707081410s6ae53a5aof4a647b317aafa5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/07, jack freeman <freemancomputer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I would like to use it for a media server that i can use
> for just internal use. Looking for a good distro to use for this as well.

Do you want to use it for encoding real-time video?  That would
greatly increase the CPU load.


From freemancomputer at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  8 20:13:39 2007
From: freemancomputer at yahoo.com (jack freeman)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] new system
Message-ID: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>



----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] new system

On 7/8/07, jack freeman <freemancomputer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I would like to use it for a media server that i can use
> for just internal use. Looking for a good distro to use for this as well.

Do you want to use it for encoding real-time video?  That would
greatly increase the CPU load.

Not right away but probly sometime
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug







       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070708/d59c7ebb/attachment-0001.html>

From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 23:06:11 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 23:06:11 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dell Linux on YouTube
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707082006u7f21cd0r7c98d842465f5566@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a moderately-funny video posted by Dell chock-full of Linux
references.  While not screamingly funny, it IS amusing and has some
nuggets of information sprinkled throughout...
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6UWUTCeRaI>

-- Mikey


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 00:22:57 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 00:22:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Dell Linux on YouTube
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707082006u7f21cd0r7c98d842465f5566@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707082006u7f21cd0r7c98d842465f5566@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707082122u27123apf8dd0ee636b01b95@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/8/07, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's a moderately-funny video posted by Dell chock-full of Linux
> references.  While not screamingly funny, it IS amusing and has some
> nuggets of information sprinkled throughout...
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6UWUTCeRaI>
>
> -- Mikey

It's like one of those jokes that makes you laugh because it's so bad.

-Joseph


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 08:45:18 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 08:45:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Benchmark Data Needed
In-Reply-To: <20070707061129.GB5850@squish.home.loc>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1D@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Paul

> 	Speed can be hard to pin down; are you talking about how fast
> OpenOffice loads when using Gnome as your window manager, vs. windows?

 Exactly, you've got to be specific about what you mean by 'speed'. I
can report that my Linux box "feels" much faster than the Vista box we
have.

 Here's a link comparing Vista and XP in the "User Efficiency" area;
not directly relevant to "Linux vs Windows" but illustrates that there
are a lot of different way to think about it:

 http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/27/172203
 http://www.it-enquirer.com/main/ite/more/pfeiffer_vista/

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

 "There is no limit to the good you can do if you don't care
         who gets the credit." - George C. Marshall

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From otakurider at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 09:08:48 2007
From: otakurider at gmail.com (-)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:08:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] AIT Radeon 9200
In-Reply-To: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd5131a50707060619o5a21f260s7b90314a72282efa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cd5131a50707090608r24255fe3q1d72cc495c5dc47b@mail.gmail.com>

Also wanted to add to this -  anyone use OpenOffice in the duel monitor
spanned mode?  Had a odd issue with it locking up X.   it works fine when I
disable monitor spanned mode.  no big deal just wondering if anyone ever
seen this.  note - I have the same problem with all the version of
Openoffice (using 2.2.1 now).

On 7/6/07, - <otakurider at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Any one played with the Radeon 9200 and duel monitors with Fedora or
> Debian.  Looking to update my Fedora 5 with Matrox G450 duel monitors to
> something that can do 3D  want to try beryl or Compiz.  If anyone has any
> recommendations for video card (must have duel video monitor outputs) 2 or 3
> DVI is better but mix will work.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Pat
> VP
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070709/9f0ed584/attachment-0001.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Jul  9 09:07:35 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:07:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
References: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <46923317.8030904@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
From: dean <mdlug at sbcglobal.net>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Sunday, July 08, 2007 8:50:24 AM
> Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:  
> Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have 
> converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?
>
> At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
> along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
> neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  
>
> Does it have to do with 3d graphics?   Hypermesh, Ansa, and Star CD all 
> use graphics, and they all exist for linux.   We use them on linux.    
> And abaqus, I think.   
>
> Is it politics and/or M$ money?     
>
> TIA, &, Scratching my head, Dean
>   
    This absolutely beats me.

    UG and Catia are/were both born upon UNIX, so it seems to me that it 
should be far from immeasurably difficult to port over to Linux.

    The French made CAD/CAM package we use is/was initially launched on 
UNIX as well, it still has some UNIX-y feel to certain aspects of it and 
may well still be available on UNIX in France, just not in the US...

    All I can say/suggest is keep requesting Linux ports and maybe one 
day that will happen.

    -Rob


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul  9 09:26:16 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 08:26:16 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323C8CE@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

http://www.tenlinks.com/NEWS/PR/ugs/040506_nx4linux.htm

NX4 appears to be supported on Linux. 

Honestly, I work for UGS/Siemens, the company that rights NX and I don't
remember seeing a linux CD set come through her.
SGI/Sun/HPUX/AIX/Windose (and I think they are even considering a port
to MacOS)... 

I have seen Linux64 updates on our FTP servers, but I haven't seen any
actual CD/DVDs.

Spooky...

--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of dean
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 8:50 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)

Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:  
Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have
converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?

At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but

neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  

Does it have to do with 3d graphics?   Hypermesh, Ansa, and Star CD all 
use graphics, and they all exist for linux.   We use them on linux.    
And abaqus, I think.   

Is it politics and/or M$ money?     

TIA, &, Scratching my head, Dean



_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 09:28:48 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 09:28:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <46923317.8030904@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Robert Adkins

> > At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
> > along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
> > neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  

> > Is it politics and/or M$ money?     

>     UG and Catia are/were both born upon UNIX, so it seems to me that it 
> should be far from immeasurably difficult to port over to Linux.

 Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.

 Just a theory. One reason I like gaming on Linux is that I don't have to
bother with cracks and such just to play legitimately-purchased games without
digging out the CD or whatever each time.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                            (313) 227-2317

 Novice electrician:
   Why should I waste time and money getting the right color wire?
   The electricity doesn't care.
 Experienced electrician:
   Electricity is color-blind.  Electricians are not.
                         -- unknown

 Novice programmer:
   Why should I waste time commenting code? The computer doesn't care.
 Experienced programmer:
   The computer is comment-blind.  Programmers are not.
                -- Dr. Robert J. Meier 1980

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Jul  9 09:42:24 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:42:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46923B40.3010402@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:28:48 AM
>> From: Robert Adkins
>>     
>
>   
>>> At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
>>> along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
>>> neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  
>>>       
>
>   
>>> Is it politics and/or M$ money?     
>>>       
>
>   
>>     UG and Catia are/were both born upon UNIX, so it seems to me that it 
>> should be far from immeasurably difficult to port over to Linux.
>>     
>
>  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
> such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
> a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
> might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.
>
>  Just a theory. One reason I like gaming on Linux is that I don't have to
> bother with cracks and such just to play legitimately-purchased games without
> digging out the CD or whatever each time.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                            (313) 227-2317
>   
    There's cracks available for every CAD/CAM package on the market. 
The question is, would one want to jeopardize their business profits 
running unlicensed software and getting caught?

    I would like to think that for the majority of businesses, the 
answer would be a resounding "No!".

    The question of whether or not the software protection mechanism 
will be cracked is absolutely moot. The problem is, while the 
programming team and support staff are likely very aware of that, the 
decision making part of CAD/CAM software provides has no understanding 
of this technical fact and thus it won't go away anytime soon. (Which 
probably explains their fear with Linux quite succinctly.)

    -Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 10:22:43 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 10:22:43 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <46923B40.3010402@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E20@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Robert Adkins
> From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>

> >  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
> > such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
> > a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
> > might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.

>     The question of whether or not the software protection mechanism 
> will be cracked is absolutely moot. The problem is, while the 
> programming team and support staff are likely very aware of that, the 
> decision making part of CAD/CAM software provides has no understanding 
> of this technical fact and thus it won't go away anytime soon. (Which 
> probably explains their fear with Linux quite succinctly.)

 Linux just points out how misguided software copy protection is. A lot
of people would rather not face that reality, however. See my .sig below.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317

 "Trying to make bits uncopyable is like trying to make water not wet.
  The sooner people accept this, and build business models that take
  this into account, the sooner people will start making money again."
                          - Bruce Schneier

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From radkins at impelind.com  Mon Jul  9 10:53:34 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:53:34 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E20@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E20@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46924BEE.4020804@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:22:43 AM
>> From: Robert Adkins
>> From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
>>     
>
>   
>>>  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
>>> such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
>>> a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
>>> might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.
>>>       
>
>   
>>     The question of whether or not the software protection mechanism 
>> will be cracked is absolutely moot. The problem is, while the 
>> programming team and support staff are likely very aware of that, the 
>> decision making part of CAD/CAM software provides has no understanding 
>> of this technical fact and thus it won't go away anytime soon. (Which 
>> probably explains their fear with Linux quite succinctly.)
>>     
>
>  Linux just points out how misguided software copy protection is. A lot
> of people would rather not face that reality, however. See my .sig below.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Trying to make bits uncopyable is like trying to make water not wet.
>   The sooner people accept this, and build business models that take
>   this into account, the sooner people will start making money again."
>                           - Bruce Schneier
>   
    BTW, here's that "Award Winning" Business model:

    1. Create an Incremental Enhancement to the Software Package that by 
itself isn't worth jack.
    2. Rearrange EVERY interface and location of menus/options, so when 
someone buys the new package they can see that it is all "new!", then we 
can claim the changes were made due to "Focus Group" response. (We just 
won't tell anyone that those "Focus Groups" were our own people and 
their "Focus" was to make us more money!)
    3. Offer expensive support package, which includes No Training or 
25% off Training. (Training either requires a week of the user going out 
of state or a week of having an overpriced trainer in house.)
    4. PROFIT!

    There's a package of software we are forced into using due to 
hardware/software marriage that includes such a methodology of updates.

    -Rob


From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Mon Jul  9 11:09:25 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:09:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] User home directory quota
Message-ID: <1183993765.12808.27.camel@daddymobile>

I have been ready about quotas and how to implement them but I can not
find anything that talks about having more than 1 set of quotas.  I need
to be able to set diffrent sized quotas on diffrent directories
e.g. /home/student/user = ??MB /home/staff/user = ??MB the quota on
student being one size and the quota on staff being another size.  If
any knows were I canf find info on this please send a link.



From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Mon Jul  9 11:22:51 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:22:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
Message-ID: <7348297.1183994572176.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>



-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>
>Sent: Jul 9, 2007 9:07 AM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
>
>-------- Original Message  --------
>Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
>From: dean <mdlug at sbcglobal.net>
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Date: Sunday, July 08, 2007 8:50:24 AM
>> Hello, I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on this question:  
>> Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have 
>> converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?
>>
>> At my current job, my boss likes linux and we use it wherever we can, 
>> along with legacy unix.   He would like to roll out CAD linux boxes, but 
>> neither UG nor Catia are available for linux.  
>>
>> Does it have to do with 3d graphics?   Hypermesh, Ansa, and Star CD all 
>> use graphics, and they all exist for linux.   We use them on linux.    
>> And abaqus, I think.   
>>
>> Is it politics and/or M$ money?     
>>
>> TIA, &, Scratching my head, Dean
>>   
>    This absolutely beats me.
>
>    UG and Catia are/were both born upon UNIX, so it seems to me that it 
>should be far from immeasurably difficult to port over to Linux.

IIRC from a CATIA class I took a couple of years back, CATIA on Windoze has more customizable features (through VB) as compared to UNIX versions.

BTW, I now work for a company owned by Dassault Systemes (the parent company of CATIA) I have been here only for the past 4 months) and I do not know why CATIA favors Windoze over UNIX/LINUX.

>
>    The French made CAD/CAM package we use is/was initially launched on 
>UNIX as well, it still has some UNIX-y feel to certain aspects of it and 
>may well still be available on UNIX in France, just not in the US...
>
>    All I can say/suggest is keep requesting Linux ports and maybe one 
>day that will happen.
>
>    -Rob
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From danno at umich.edu  Mon Jul  9 11:59:42 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:59:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] User home directory quota
In-Reply-To: <1183993765.12808.27.camel@daddymobile>
References: <1183993765.12808.27.camel@daddymobile>
Message-ID: <20070709155942.GA15192@maniac.deathstar.org>

standard *nix quotas are per-user, per-filesystem.

so just set one MB quota for each user who is staff, and another
MB quota for each user who is a student.  or a different quota
per user, or whatever.

man edquota

caveat, should work for ext & xfs, not sure about other linux filesystems
although i'd be surprised if they didnt' support the standard quota 
feature.

On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 11:09:25AM -0400, Mathew Enders wrote:
> I have been ready about quotas and how to implement them but I can not
> find anything that talks about having more than 1 set of quotas.  I need
> to be able to set diffrent sized quotas on diffrent directories
> e.g. /home/student/user = ??MB /home/staff/user = ??MB the quota on
> student being one size and the quota on staff being another size.  If
> any knows were I canf find info on this please send a link.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul  9 12:33:28 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:33:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <46924BEE.4020804@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323CA75@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

Yep.

Sounds like a typical corporate software model. 


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Robert Adkins
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:54 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Monday, July 09, 2007 10:22:43 AM
>> From: Robert Adkins
>> From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
>>     
>
>   
>>>  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' 
>>> measures and such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! 
>>> Enforcing such measures it a lot harder when the end user can muck 
>>> with the actual operating system. It might be paranoia on the part
of the CAD companies.
>>>       
>
>   
>>     The question of whether or not the software protection mechanism 
>> will be cracked is absolutely moot. The problem is, while the 
>> programming team and support staff are likely very aware of that, the

>> decision making part of CAD/CAM software provides has no 
>> understanding of this technical fact and thus it won't go away 
>> anytime soon. (Which probably explains their fear with Linux quite 
>> succinctly.)
>>     
>
>  Linux just points out how misguided software copy protection is. A 
> lot of people would rather not face that reality, however. See my .sig
below.
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Trying to make bits uncopyable is like trying to make water not wet.
>   The sooner people accept this, and build business models that take
>   this into account, the sooner people will start making money again."
>                           - Bruce Schneier
>   
    BTW, here's that "Award Winning" Business model:

    1. Create an Incremental Enhancement to the Software Package that by
itself isn't worth jack.
    2. Rearrange EVERY interface and location of menus/options, so when
someone buys the new package they can see that it is all "new!", then we
can claim the changes were made due to "Focus Group" response. (We just
won't tell anyone that those "Focus Groups" were our own people and
their "Focus" was to make us more money!)
    3. Offer expensive support package, which includes No Training or
25% off Training. (Training either requires a week of the user going out
of state or a week of having an overpriced trainer in house.)
    4. PROFIT!

    There's a package of software we are forced into using due to
hardware/software marriage that includes such a methodology of updates.

    -Rob
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 13:03:24 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 13:03:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <46923317.8030904@impelind.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707091003u9189802uc95f646e5d78f5b6@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/9/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  Don't the CAD programs have a long history of 'anti-piracy' measures and
> such? Dongles, codes, and license servers, oh my! Enforcing such measures it
> a lot harder when the end user can muck with the actual operating system. It
> might be paranoia on the part of the CAD companies.

FLEXlm (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLEXlm) is commonly used with
CAE/CAD/CAM tools.  It supports most OSes
(www.macrovision.com/support/by_category/FLEXlm_specs.shtml).  There
are plenty of cracks for it also.


From wolfger at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 14:52:36 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:52:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <46923317.8030904@impelind.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E1E@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707091152p8926030i15352a82b150e239@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/9/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>
>  One reason I like gaming on Linux is that I don't have to
> bother with cracks and such just to play legitimately-purchased games without
> digging out the CD or whatever each time.

That statement doesn't make any sense. I like gaming on Linux, and yet
I still have to jump through the same hoops (if not more) as my
Windows-using counterparts to play the same games they do. I think
what you mean is that you like open source games. "Gaming on Linux" is
not necessarily open source. In fact, very few of the games that I
enjoy are. That's a shame, but it's the way it is.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 15:02:09 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:02:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707091152p8926030i15352a82b150e239@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E22@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Wolfger

> That statement doesn't make any sense. I like gaming on Linux, and yet
> I still have to jump through the same hoops (if not more) as my
> Windows-using counterparts to play the same games they do.

 Well, I don't play all of the same games they do. I play a lot of them
(Quake [I II III], Unreal Tournament, Aliens vs Predator, Descent 3, RTCW,
etc.) but they have native Linux ports. I have Introversion's Uplink and Darwinia,
and today's my birthday. I'm hoping I'll get DEFCON tonight. I'm also pondering
Cold War, if I get enough 'fun money'. None of the above games require any kind of
crack or anything to play under Linux...

 The only game that I play on Linux that required any kind of 'crack' was
"American McGee's Alice". Plays great under Wine, flawlessly as far as I
can tell.

> I think what you mean is that you like open source games.

 I also enjoy quality time with BZFlag and suchlike, of course.

> "Gaming on Linux" is not necessarily open source.

 Yup, you're right. But when closed-source games have Linux native ports, I haven't
run into a one that required any kind of 'CD Validation' or anything like that.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul  9 15:05:19 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:05:19 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E22@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323CBE0@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."

... I really like that one! Where do you get these? Is it a Sig program
or are they quotes you made up?


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Ingles, Raymond
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:02 PM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)


> From: Wolfger

> That statement doesn't make any sense. I like gaming on Linux, and yet

> I still have to jump through the same hoops (if not more) as my 
> Windows-using counterparts to play the same games they do.

 Well, I don't play all of the same games they do. I play a lot of them
(Quake [I II III], Unreal Tournament, Aliens vs Predator, Descent 3,
RTCW,
etc.) but they have native Linux ports. I have Introversion's Uplink and
Darwinia, and today's my birthday. I'm hoping I'll get DEFCON tonight.
I'm also pondering Cold War, if I get enough 'fun money'. None of the
above games require any kind of crack or anything to play under Linux...

 The only game that I play on Linux that required any kind of 'crack'
was "American McGee's Alice". Plays great under Wine, flawlessly as far
as I can tell.

> I think what you mean is that you like open source games.

 I also enjoy quality time with BZFlag and suchlike, of course.

> "Gaming on Linux" is not necessarily open source.

 Yup, you're right. But when closed-source games have Linux native
ports, I haven't run into a one that required any kind of 'CD
Validation' or anything like that.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only.
It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the
named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it,
or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify
us immediately and then destroy it. 
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 15:42:22 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:42:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E22@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <3b00b3330707091152p8926030i15352a82b150e239@mail.gmail.com>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E22@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707091242t5c80a251ue7fbc67a0c651590@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/9/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>  The only game that I play on Linux that required any kind of 'crack' was
> "American McGee's Alice". Plays great under Wine, flawlessly as far as I
> can tell.

The reason cracks are needed for some games under Wine is that the
developers can't see the protection system code without signing an NDA
which would prevent them from releasing code written to support it.
However, there has been progress in emulating the Windows systems the
protection mechanisms rely on in order to get them to stop false
triggering.  Macrovision Safedisc is the most common one.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 15:40:33 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:40:33 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE:  CAD vs CAE (for linux))
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323CBE0@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Morris, Tim
>  "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
> than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
> 
> ... I really like that one! Where do you get these? Is it a 
> Sig program or are they quotes you made up?

 That one, as it said in the message, was from Eric Scott Raymond. I
like collecting pithy, funny, or profound quotes. I currently have...
let's see... 437 of them. I have a little script that randomly picks
one for each message. Actually, it's interesting in a Unix sense how I
do it.

 Most Unix email and news programs will read a 'signature' from a file
called ".signature" in your home directory, if it exists. I don't have
a file there, I have a "fifo". On Unix, you can have a 'named pipe', or
'fifo' (First In First Out) that programs can read from and write to.

 When a program reads my ".signature", they don't get the contents of
a file, they get whatever a program at the other end of the fifo feeds
to them. I have a script called "fifosig.sh" that does the selecting,
picking a random signature and squirting it through the fifo to whatever
program reads from the other end.

--------fifosig.sh--------
#!/bin/bash
while true
do
 # The low-order bits of a PRNG are often not terribly random,
 # but this is good enough.
 SIGGY=$((RANDOM % `ls -1 ~/News/sigs/msig* | wc -l`))
 cat ~/News/sigs/msig$SIGGY > ~/.signature 2> /dev/null
 sleep 1 # Some applications need this 'rest'...
done
--------------------------

 So, I get randomly-selected quotes by default. Sometimes, when I have
a particularly apt quote I remember from my collection, I overwrite it
by hand, but usually I let chance rule.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 "Yes, but other than being useful, usable, reliable, extensible,
   free, and unencumbered, what does Linux have going for it?"
                       - Hamilcar Barca

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul  9 15:47:22 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 15:47:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707091242t5c80a251ue7fbc67a0c651590@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E26@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Jeff Hanson

> The reason cracks are needed for some games under Wine is that the
> developers can't see the protection system code without signing an NDA
> which would prevent them from releasing code written to support it.

 I always find a no-CD crack for the games I play on Windows. And I don't
pirate games.

 I have four young boys now. The youngest is barely a month old, but the
rest are ambulatory and form an active threat to precious install media.
I can't afford to be digging out a CD every time I want to play a game.
For one thing, that's too dang slow and my game time is short enough as
it is. But if I ever forget to put the CD away after I'm done...

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                     (313) 227-2317

    "Mind control doesn't work on people who think." - Eris

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul  9 15:52:28 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:52:28 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE:  CAD vs CAE (for linux))
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20323CC59@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

Interesting...

How much do you want for your stash of quotes :) 


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Ingles, Raymond
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 3:41 PM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE: CAD vs CAE (for linux))


> From: Morris, Tim
>  "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more 
> than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
> 
> ... I really like that one! Where do you get these? Is it a Sig 
> program or are they quotes you made up?

 That one, as it said in the message, was from Eric Scott Raymond. I
like collecting pithy, funny, or profound quotes. I currently have...
let's see... 437 of them. I have a little script that randomly picks one
for each message. Actually, it's interesting in a Unix sense how I do
it.

 Most Unix email and news programs will read a 'signature' from a file
called ".signature" in your home directory, if it exists. I don't have a
file there, I have a "fifo". On Unix, you can have a 'named pipe', or
'fifo' (First In First Out) that programs can read from and write to.

 When a program reads my ".signature", they don't get the contents of a
file, they get whatever a program at the other end of the fifo feeds to
them. I have a script called "fifosig.sh" that does the selecting,
picking a random signature and squirting it through the fifo to whatever
program reads from the other end.

--------fifosig.sh--------
#!/bin/bash
while true
do
 # The low-order bits of a PRNG are often not terribly random,  # but
this is good enough.
 SIGGY=$((RANDOM % `ls -1 ~/News/sigs/msig* | wc -l`))  cat
~/News/sigs/msig$SIGGY > ~/.signature 2> /dev/null  sleep 1 # Some
applications need this 'rest'...
done
--------------------------

 So, I get randomly-selected quotes by default. Sometimes, when I have a
particularly apt quote I remember from my collection, I overwrite it by
hand, but usually I let chance rule.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 "Yes, but other than being useful, usable, reliable, extensible,
   free, and unencumbered, what does Linux have going for it?"
                       - Hamilcar Barca

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only.
It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the
named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it,
or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify
us immediately and then destroy it. 
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Jul  9 05:44:40 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Mon,  9 Jul 2007 05:44:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] CAD vs CAE (for linux)
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707081039t75012d9y818e3f6d618fe7c7@mail.gmail.com>
	(jhansonxi@gmail.com)
References: <4690DD90.70509@sbcglobal.net>
	<b02c40e90707081039t75012d9y818e3f6d618fe7c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070709094440.EB69521E38E@starfox.local>

Jeff,

>> Why does it seem like most if not all of the major CAE vendors have
>> converted their apps to linux but the CAD vendors have not?

Chrsyler Group uses Catia on aix systems.

> I'm a PCB Designer.  There are some PCB design apps, Kicad and gEDA
> but I haven't tried to design anything in them yet.

Last year, I developed an in-house PCB CAD facility with perl/C++/java
wrappers around gEDA.  Though yet too simple for publication,
it served my needs, which were primarily for circuit validation
(tolerance to component variations) and pcb validation (does the mask
match the circuit).

Reporting,
--
Bob


From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  9 19:47:32 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:47:32 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] new system
In-Reply-To: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
References: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

$0.02:

CPU: look at AMD5600+ X2 (dual core).  Used to cost around $450, now can 
be found for $170.  Great buy, and outperforms intel at the same 
pricepoint by 15-20%.

MOBO: X2 compatible, of course.  Can't recall mine right now, but it was 
a great deal, and included built-in sound, nvidia graphics (I think it 
was FX 5200), etc.  nForce 4(?) chipset.  All for like $90.

RAM: Consider 2MB, 2 stick, dual channel, ddr (800Mhz?).  This should 
run around $200 - 250.

Disks: If you can swing it, get 3: one for the system, the other two for 
data in a RAID 1 or 0+1 configuration.  If you want speed, get a raptor 
for your system disk.  Around $200 for 100G disks.

Video: NVIDIA 7800GTX 512MB if you want to go high-end for $200 or so.
You can get a dual DVI NVIDIA 7600 GS 512MB from PNY for around 120 from 
NewEgg.  And that's probably still more than you need.

Distro: I like Kubuntu.  Today, just installed Google Earth with a mouse 
click.  Gotta love it.  YMMV.

Others: Get a good powersupply; consider a low-noise case for multimedia 
(my case cost more than my mobo, but it is fantastically quiet).


On Sunday 08 July 2007, jack freeman wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2007 4:10:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] new system
>
> On 7/8/07, jack freeman <freemancomputer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I would like to use it for a media server that i can use
> > for just internal use. Looking for a good distro to use for this as
> > well.
>
> Do you want to use it for encoding real-time video?  That would
> greatly increase the CPU load.
>
> Not right away but probly sometime
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>_______________ Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email
> wherever you're surfing.
> http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php



-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  9 22:24:39 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:24:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] new system
In-Reply-To: <200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
References: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070709222439.128a000c@tessa.long>

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:47:32 -0700
"Michael S. Mikowski" <z_mikowski at yahoo.com> wrote:

/snip

> Disks: If you can swing it, get 3: one for the system, the other two
> for data in a RAID 1 or 0+1 configuration.  If you want speed, get a
> raptor for your system disk.  Around $200 for 100G disks.

/snip

RAID 0+1 requires 4 disks minimum, and if you want a separate one for
the system that is five.  I prefer to use NFS over RAID 1 or RAID 5
myself, and don't see any reason the system requires a separate disk.
This can work with 2 disks nicely (RAID 1), or with 3-or-more if you
require lots of storage (RAID 5).

Regards,
Matthew



From danno at umich.edu  Tue Jul 10 01:46:21 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 01:46:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] new system
In-Reply-To: <200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
References: <8521.50923.qm@web55513.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
	<200707091647.33047.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070710054621.GA50448@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 04:47:32PM -0700, Michael S. Mikowski wrote:
> $0.02:
> 
> CPU: look at AMD5600+ X2 (dual core).  Used to cost around $450, now can 
> be found for $170.  Great buy, and outperforms intel at the same 
> pricepoint by 15-20%.

wait for the AMD CPU price cuts to make it to the retail channel:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070709-amd-cuts-prices-may-move-some-production-to-tsmc.html

> MOBO: X2 compatible, of course.  Can't recall mine right now, but it was 
> a great deal, and included built-in sound, nvidia graphics (I think it 
> was FX 5200), etc.  nForce 4(?) chipset.  All for like $90.

The Asus M2A-VM HDMI is about $75 and has everything most people
might want except a lot of slots.  Abit makes a similar board.

> RAM: Consider 2MB, 2 stick, dual channel, ddr (800Mhz?).  This should 
> run around $200 - 250.

If you're trying to make your money stretch, lower-speed ram is significantly
cheaper.

> Disks: If you can swing it, get 3: one for the system, the other two for 
> data in a RAID 1 or 0+1 configuration.  If you want speed, get a raptor 
> for your system disk.  Around $200 for 100G disks.

minor nit:  any integrated raid would do the right thing for you,
but if you were manually setting things up with software raid or
layering hardware and software, or something, you'd want to make
sure to do 1+0, rather than 0+1; the survivability is much better
if you start with raid1's and then raid0 across them.  Although as
i think about it, with only 4 disks, the survivability is probably
the same either way.

> Others: Get a good powersupply; consider a low-noise case for multimedia 
> (my case cost more than my mobo, but it is fantastically quiet).

don't cheap out on the power supply, ESPECIALLY if you leave the
thing on all the time.  the electricity cost difference between a
60% efficient and an 80% efficient PSU really adds up fast.

 www.80plus.org

i also recommend pc power & cooling although i don't think they
have any 80% efficient PSU's yet; they have plenty in the 75% range
and their stuff is rock solid.

danno


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Jul  9 23:51:58 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Mon,  9 Jul 2007 23:51:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	(Raymond.Ingles@compuware.com)
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <20070710035158.B595D20AAE8@starfox.local>

Ray, Tim,

> Most Unix email and news programs will read a 'signature' from a file
> called ".signature" in your home directory, if it exists.

A few years ago, I used a script that displayed ~5 messages from my fortune
file (1089 entries), and let me select one or get another 5 random signatures.
I failed to copy the script during one of my system upgrades, so now I've
added the fifo.

Seeking more interesting signatures,
-- 
Dr. B

"E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be
 used only to be used for company business."
      -- unknown


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 10 11:37:50 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:37:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs
In-Reply-To: <20070710035158.B595D20AAE8@starfox.local>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<20070710035158.B595D20AAE8@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <4693A7CE.4070906@comcast.net>

Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> Seeking more interesting signatures,
>   
> E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be
>  used only to be used for company business."
>       -- unknown

That is about as Dilbert as they come.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 10 11:39:44 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:39:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE:  CAD vs CAE (for linux))
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E23@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Morris, Tim
>>  "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
>> than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
>>
>> ... I really like that one! Where do you get these? Is it a 
>> Sig program or are they quotes you made up?
>>     
>
>  That one, as it said in the message, was from Eric Scott Raymond. I
> like collecting pithy, funny, or profound quotes. I currently have...
> let's see... 437 of them. I have a little script that randomly picks
> one for each message. Actually, it's interesting in a Unix sense how I
> do it.
>
>  Most Unix email and news programs will read a 'signature' from a file
> called ".signature" in your home directory, if it exists. I don't have
> a file there, I have a "fifo". On Unix, you can have a 'named pipe', or
> 'fifo' (First In First Out) that programs can read from and write to.
>
>  When a program reads my ".signature", they don't get the contents of
> a file, they get whatever a program at the other end of the fifo feeds
> to them. I have a script called "fifosig.sh" that does the selecting,
> picking a random signature and squirting it through the fifo to whatever
> program reads from the other end.
>   

Can you run this puppy in Thunderbird?

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Jul 10 11:59:10 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:59:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Email sigs (was RE:  CAD vs CAE (for linux))
In-Reply-To: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E2A@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: Garry Stahl

> >  When a program reads my ".signature", they don't get the contents of
> > a file, they get whatever a program at the other end of the fifo feeds
> > to them.

> Can you run this puppy in Thunderbird?

 I don't see why not. Just tell Thunderbird that the signature file it should
read from is the fifo. (You use the program "mkfifo" to actually create a
fifo, BTW.)

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                  (313) 227-2317

   "Microsoft's view: If the software has security flaws,
       then the code and APIs cannot be made public. 
 
   Open source view: If the code and APIs are made public,
 then the software does not have security flaws." - whovian

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 10 15:12:21 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

 
   
  Is OpenSuse just a name change ?
   
  Are there ant issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?
   
  David 
   

       
---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
 Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070710/37808b8a/attachment-0001.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 10 15:27:47 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:27:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Recently there was a sale at an Eletronics store that When I bought a Certian CPU I got a free mother board, that was the begining of mt problems.
   
  I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem.  The biggest confusing thing is the Windows would load and run. But another system running windows is not very intresting.  This build was to be a suse Linux box.  I spent hours trouble shooting why Suse Did not load.  The FIX was to get a new mother board.  The Motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.  
   
  I replaced it with an MSI board from Micro Center. Needless to say we are up and running.  The Install was able to "see" the SATA drive.  Simetimes even Windows install does not know how to talk to SATA drives.  
   
  Once the mothe board was replaced the install was okay.  Just watch out for off brand motherboards.
   
  David 
   

  
---------------------------------
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
 Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070710/5a557d24/attachment-0001.html>

From peter at petertheplumber.net  Tue Jul 10 16:28:40 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:28:40 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1184099320.3598.3.camel@plumber.site>

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 12:12 -0700, David Lane wrote:
>  
>  
> Is OpenSuse just a name change ?
>  
> Are there ant issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?
>  

David,
	They did reorganize the way their products are named. Opensuse is the
free as in beer version and I think "SLED" is now the boxed version with
support. There's another recent thread that deals with opensuse issues,
as it were.

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 19:21:50 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:21:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
	<923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707101621u6e14cff2wdfc19177d3cd108a@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/07, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Once the mothe board was replaced the install was okay.  Just watch out for
> off brand motherboards.

I encounter similar issues with old hardware.  The first thing I do is
upgrade the BIOS.  Then I start working through the problems, one step
at a time.  With graphics issues I try the vga=normal boot parameter,
then changing to a different video chip (a card instead of integrated,
etc.), manually setting xorg.conf, changing BIOS settings, checking
the logs in /var/log, a different distro, and search the Internet too
of course.  Similar steps for other hardware.  Sometimes it turns out
to be something stupid like a loose card or cable.  Sometimes its
hardware without stable drivers or some setting buried in a doc
somewhere.  Last weekend I blew several hours trying to get an old
Nvidia TNT2 M64 card on a SiS 741 MB to not crash the system when X
started.  It turned out I needed NvAgp "1" in xorg.conf to use the
Nvidia AGP driver instead of the kernel's default.  It eats up lots of
time but it was educational.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 20:57:25 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:57:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4693A840.6090305@comcast.net>
	<923860.49122.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707101757j730d52h4d7b7cbff68d29@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/10/07, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I bought a
> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning of my problems.
>
> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would
> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem. The
> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out two things:

1. ECS is not an "off" brand.  The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
largest motherboard maker.   They also make the PCChips brand, among
others.  Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
unknown.
2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo, believe me.
Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?

-- Mikey


From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Jul 11 00:56:32 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:56:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] President's mail bag
In-Reply-To: <001401c7c23c$cafd1b40$7544030a@MRGRANDRPD2507.local>
References: <001401c7c23c$cafd1b40$7544030a@MRGRANDRPD2507.local>
Message-ID: <46946300.80106@ameritech.net>

Derek,
I am passing this one message of yours on to our membership. Posting is
restricted to subscribed members. You are free to subscribe to our
mailing list if you wish. One such post every three months would
probably be tolerated, though you could get complaints. Please post in
plain text, no attachments, an, of course, we reserve the right to
change our policy at any time in the future.

Regards
Raymond McLaughlin President MDLUG

Derek Sonksen wrote:
> 
> Raymond,
>  
> I am an IT recruiter in Grand Rapids, working with a client in the 231
> area code.  Is there a policy regarding a process by which I could
> present opportunities to the user group members, and if so, what is that
> process?  I would likely have something only once every 3 months or so -
> I am not looking to start bogging down the mailing list.  Any advice
> would be appreciated...
>  
> Current Opportunity:  Client looking for Perl programmer, someone who
> has dabbled in Ruby/ROR.  I can be contacted for more details...
>  
> 
> *Derek Sonksen*
> 
> Account Executive
> 
> *MANAGEMENT RECRUITERS** *
> 
> OF GRAND RAPIDS
> 
> 1 Ionia SE, Suite 300
> 
> Grand Rapids , MI   49503
> 
> (P) 616.336.8484  Ext 218
> 
> (F) 616.988.0872
> 
> dsonksen at mrigr.com
> 
> www.mrigr.com
> 
>  
> 
> *MRINetwork (TM)** *
> 
> BUILDING THE HEART OF BUSINESS (TM)
> 


From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Jul 11 00:59:38 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:59:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] President's mail bag
Message-ID: <469463BA.5090506@ameritech.net>

I have a small startup website design and development company in the
Ann Arbor area and I'm looking for Linux programers.
They need to know Linux, HTML, PHP, MySQL, if they know apache or
Joomla that's even better.
I'm also looking for people who know Flash, it's more likely that
graphic artists will know this.
Ideally they should live within 30 miles of Ann Arbor because it
really helps if they can meet personally with clients to clarify issues.

I'm hiring independent contractors on a project by project bases.
I have no portfolio of previous clients work to show prospects, so
that means I have to compete on quality, service and price.
In the beginning I can only afford to pay $15 per hour on new
websites. However when I get projects to do maintenance
on currently existing websites I don't have to compete on price so
I'm paying $20 per hour for those jobs.

Please feel free to share this email with whoever you feel would be
appropriate.

Thanks,

Bill Diesenroth
Ann Arbor Web Design LLC

diesenroth at sbcglobal.com

734.483.2216





From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 08:29:52 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:29:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707101757j730d52h4d7b7cbff68d29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070711122952.60367.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks like it will be a while until I build another system.  
   
   
  
Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
  On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I bought a
> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning of my problems.
>
> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would
> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem. The
> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out two things:

1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
unknown.
2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo, believe me.
Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/dad4598c/attachment-0001.html>

From tmorris at ugs.com  Wed Jul 11 08:41:15 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:41:15 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <20070711122952.60367.qmail@web37915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E2032C8B01@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have options to
set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to emulate an old IDE
controller. Either of those options (if the board had them) might have
worked in your case. Obviously, setting them to emulate an IDE
controller isn't such a great idea, but from what I can tell the only
thing you lose by setting them to AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it
even has it). I could be wrong...
 
For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one still
works (although the USB died) and the other died completely after 3
months. But hey, they were cheap.
 
--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
 

________________________________

From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of David Lane
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga


I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks like it
will be a while until I build another system.  
 
 

Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:

	On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
	> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I
bought a
	> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning
of my problems.
	>
	> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th
build would
	> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the
problem. The
	> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
	
	I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
two things:
	
	1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the
world's
	largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand,
among
	others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
	unknown.
	2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards,
by
	their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't
run
	Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a
BIOS
	reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
believe me.
	Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
	
	-- Mikey
	_______________________________________________
	mdlug mailing list
	mdlug at mdlug.org
	http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
	


________________________________

Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket:
<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48253/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNX
IC>  mail, news, photos & more. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/4e5bec6c/attachment-0001.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 08:51:46 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:51:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E2032C8B01@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <52004.37423.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Mine Was free.  With the puchase intel Duo 6600.  The rest of the compunuts were very good.  The system was VERY responsive With the Intel Duo 6600 on the MSI Motherboard, 200gb SATA. I'm happy with the arduous result.  It just took alot to get there.
   
   
  
"Morris, Tim" <tmorris at ugs.com> wrote:
      Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be wrong...
   
  For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
   
  --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
   

    
---------------------------------
  From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of David Lane
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga


  
  I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks like it will be a while until I build another system.  
   
   
  
Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
  On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I bought a
> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning of my problems.
>
> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would
> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem. The
> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out two things:

1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
unknown.
2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo, believe me.
Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

    
---------------------------------
  Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. _______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/4146b19c/attachment-0001.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 08:54:10 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:54:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E2032C8B01@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <133226.38192.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board that has the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)

"Morris, Tim" <tmorris at ugs.com> wrote:      Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be wrong...
   
  For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
   
  --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
   

    
---------------------------------
  From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of David Lane
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga


  
  I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks like it will be a while until I build another system.  
   
   
  
Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
  On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when I bought a
> certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the beginning of my problems.
>
> I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my 4th build would
> be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was the problem. The
> motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.

I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out two things:

1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
unknown.
2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo, believe me.
Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?

-- Mikey
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

    
---------------------------------
  Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. _______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/fd5b176d/attachment-0001.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 11 09:36:27 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:36:27 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <133226.38192.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <133226.38192.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4694DCDB.8030806@impelind.com>

Personally, I prefer ASUS and maybe MSI products.

My current "main rig" originally had an MSI board. They did a piss-poor 
job of designing the cooling system on the mainboard. I was suffering 
from a series of heat related shutdowns. In the end, it turned out that 
the entire problem was related to the Northbridge chip overheating 
something fierce.

Right now, I have the extra guts to rebuild a second PC. I just need to 
fabricate or replace the entire mainboard chip cooling system to have it 
run properly...

The ASUS Board I replaced it with has been operating awesomely.

-Rob


-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:54:10 AM
> Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board that has 
> the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)
>
> */"Morris, Tim" <tmorris at ugs.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have
>     options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to
>     emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the
>     board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting
>     them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but
>     from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to
>     AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be
>     wrong...
>      
>     For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one
>     still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely
>     after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
>      
>     --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
>      
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]
>     *On Behalf Of *David Lane
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
>     *To:* MDLUG's Main discussion list
>     *Subject:* Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga
>
>     I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran.  It looks
>     like it will be a while until I build another system. 
>      
>      
>
>     */Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>
>         On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
>         > Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when
>         I bought a
>         > certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the
>         beginning of my problems.
>         >
>         > I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my
>         4th build would
>         > be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was
>         the problem. The
>         > motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
>
>         I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
>         two things:
>
>         1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
>         largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
>         others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
>         unknown.
>         2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
>         their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
>         Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
>         reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
>         believe me.
>         Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
>
>         -- Mikey
>         _______________________________________________
>         mdlug mailing list
>         mdlug at mdlug.org
>         http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your
>     pocket:
>     <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48253/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC>
>     mail, news, photos & more.
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48256/*http://travel.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFhN2hucjlpBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwM1BHNlYwNncm91cHMEc2xrA2VtYWlsLW5jbQ-->on 
> Yahoo! Travel.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 09:43:25 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 06:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <4694DCDB.8030806@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <959727.19072.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Are you using the Stock Intel (if it is intel) cooling fan. Because in this build I baught a diffetent cpu fan.  And will replace all the other stock Intel fans because they dont always snap all the way then later it wiggles loose and you are suffering heat shutdowns.
   
  David 

Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  Personally, I prefer ASUS and maybe MSI products.

My current "main rig" originally had an MSI board. They did a piss-poor 
job of designing the cooling system on the mainboard. I was suffering 
from a series of heat related shutdowns. In the end, it turned out that 
the entire problem was related to the Northbridge chip overheating 
something fierce.

Right now, I have the extra guts to rebuild a second PC. I just need to 
fabricate or replace the entire mainboard chip cooling system to have it 
run properly...

The ASUS Board I replaced it with has been operating awesomely.

-Rob


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
From: David Lane 
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list 
Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:54:10 AM
> Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board that has 
> the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)
>
> */"Morris, Tim" /* wrote:
>
> Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have
> options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to
> emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the
> board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting
> them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but
> from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to
> AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be
> wrong...
> 
> For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one
> still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely
> after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
> 
> -- Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
> 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]
> *On Behalf Of *David Lane
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
> *To:* MDLUG's Main discussion list
> *Subject:* Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga
>
> I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran. It looks
> like it will be a while until I build another system. 
> 
> 
>
> */Michael Rudas /* wrote:
>
> On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> > Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when
> I bought a
> > certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the
> beginning of my problems.
> >
> > I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my
> 4th build would
> > be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was
> the problem. The
> > motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
>
> I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
> two things:
>
> 1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
> largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
> others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
> unknown.
> 2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
> their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
> Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
> reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
> believe me.
> Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
>
> -- Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your
> pocket:
> 
> mail, news, photos & more.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places 
> on 
> Yahoo! Travel.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/ca11a212/attachment-0001.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 11 09:54:06 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:54:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <959727.19072.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <959727.19072.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4694E0FE.6010404@impelind.com>

My issue had nothing to do with the CPU Fan. The CPU Fan that came with 
the system was perfect.

It was the Northbridge Chip fan/heatsink that wasn't up to the task of 
properly keeping the motherboard chips cool enough to operate. The 
Northbridge can be read about here: 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northbridge_%28computing%29>

I'm also running AMD CPUs, not that it is relevant to the discussion.

-Rob


-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:43:25 AM
> Are you using the Stock Intel (if it is intel) cooling fan. Because in 
> this build I baught a diffetent cpu fan.  And will replace all the 
> other stock Intel fans because they dont always snap all the way then 
> later it wiggles loose and you are suffering heat shutdowns.
>  
> David
>
> */Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Personally, I prefer ASUS and maybe MSI products.
>
>     My current "main rig" originally had an MSI board. They did a
>     piss-poor
>     job of designing the cooling system on the mainboard. I was suffering
>     from a series of heat related shutdowns. In the end, it turned out
>     that
>     the entire problem was related to the Northbridge chip overheating
>     something fierce.
>
>     Right now, I have the extra guts to rebuild a second PC. I just
>     need to
>     fabricate or replace the entire mainboard chip cooling system to
>     have it
>     run properly...
>
>     The ASUS Board I replaced it with has been operating awesomely.
>
>     -Rob
>
>
>     -------- Original Message --------
>     Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
>     From: David Lane
>     To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
>     Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:54:10 AM
>     > Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board
>     that has
>     > the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)
>     >
>     > */"Morris, Tim" /* wrote:
>     >
>     > Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have
>     > options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to
>     > emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the
>     > board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting
>     > them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but
>     > from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to
>     > AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be
>     > wrong...
>     >
>     > For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one
>     > still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely
>     > after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
>     >
>     > -- Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > *From:* mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]
>     > *On Behalf Of *David Lane
>     > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
>     > *To:* MDLUG's Main discussion list
>     > *Subject:* Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga
>     >
>     > I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran. It looks
>     > like it will be a while until I build another system.
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > */Michael Rudas /* wrote:
>     >
>     > On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
>     > > Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when
>     > I bought a
>     > > certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the
>     > beginning of my problems.
>     > >
>     > > I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my
>     > 4th build would
>     > > be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was
>     > the problem. The
>     > > motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
>     >
>     > I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
>     > two things:
>     >
>     > 1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
>     > largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
>     > others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
>     > unknown.
>     > 2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
>     > their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
>     > Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
>     > reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
>     > believe me.
>     > Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
>     >
>     > -- Mikey
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > mdlug mailing list
>     > mdlug at mdlug.org
>     > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your
>     > pocket:
>     >
>     > mail, news, photos & more.
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > mdlug mailing list
>     > mdlug at mdlug.org
>     > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places
>     > on
>     > Yahoo! Travel.
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > mdlug mailing list
>     > mdlug at mdlug.org
>     > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48256/*http://travel.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFhN2hucjlpBF9TAzk3NDA3NTg5BHBvcwM1BHNlYwNncm91cHMEc2xrA2VtYWlsLW5jbQ-->on 
> Yahoo! Travel.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 10:00:50 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:00:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <4694E0FE.6010404@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <545279.61319.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

For Heat it might be.  I have not seen any data on Heat disapation between AMD and Intel.
   
  I do know that the Motorola Power PC RISC chip was great, it did not use as much heat.
   
  I was almost and jokingly looking at Liquid cooling unit, LOL
   
  David 
   
   
   
  
Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  My issue had nothing to do with the CPU Fan. The CPU Fan that came with 
the system was perfect.

It was the Northbridge Chip fan/heatsink that wasn't up to the task of 
properly keeping the motherboard chips cool enough to operate. The 
Northbridge can be read about here: 


I'm also running AMD CPUs, not that it is relevant to the discussion.

-Rob


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
From: David Lane 
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list 
Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:43:25 AM
> Are you using the Stock Intel (if it is intel) cooling fan. Because in 
> this build I baught a diffetent cpu fan. And will replace all the 
> other stock Intel fans because they dont always snap all the way then 
> later it wiggles loose and you are suffering heat shutdowns.
> 
> David
>
> */Robert Adkins /* wrote:
>
> Personally, I prefer ASUS and maybe MSI products.
>
> My current "main rig" originally had an MSI board. They did a
> piss-poor
> job of designing the cooling system on the mainboard. I was suffering
> from a series of heat related shutdowns. In the end, it turned out
> that
> the entire problem was related to the Northbridge chip overheating
> something fierce.
>
> Right now, I have the extra guts to rebuild a second PC. I just
> need to
> fabricate or replace the entire mainboard chip cooling system to
> have it
> run properly...
>
> The ASUS Board I replaced it with has been operating awesomely.
>
> -Rob
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] System Build Saga
> From: David Lane
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:54:10 AM
> > Now I'm a fan of MSI ans ASUS (This is the only mother board
> that has
> > the nifty little sticker you can put in the front of your case. LOL)
> >
> > */"Morris, Tim" /* wrote:
> >
> > Some SATA controllers are a pain in the A**. Some boards have
> > options to set a SATA controller as an AHCI controller, or to
> > emulate an old IDE controller. Either of those options (if the
> > board had them) might have worked in your case. Obviously, setting
> > them to emulate an IDE controller isn't such a great idea, but
> > from what I can tell the only thing you lose by setting them to
> > AHCI is the RAID functionality (if it even has it). I could be
> > wrong...
> >
> > For the record, I don't like ECS boards either. I have had 2, one
> > still works (although the USB died) and the other died completely
> > after 3 months. But hey, they were cheap.
> >
> > -- Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]
> > *On Behalf Of *David Lane
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:30 AM
> > *To:* MDLUG's Main discussion list
> > *Subject:* Re: [mdlug] System Build Saga
> >
> > I will admit I misspoke about ECS being an "OFF" Bran. It looks
> > like it will be a while until I build another system.
> >
> >
> >
> > */Michael Rudas /* wrote:
> >
> > On 7/10/07, David Lane wrote:
> > > Recently there was a sale at an electronics store that when
> > I bought a
> > > certain CPU I got a free mother board, that was the
> > beginning of my problems.
> > >
> > > I have built a few (3 to be specific) systems in the so my
> > 4th build would
> > > be a piece of cake. WRONG, the off brand mother board was
> > the problem. The
> > > motherboard that did NOT work was an "ECS" board.
> >
> > I'm sorry to hear that you had problems, but I must point out
> > two things:
> >
> > 1. ECS is not an "off" brand. The manufacturer is FIC, the world's
> > largest motherboard maker. They also make the PCChips brand, among
> > others. Just because YOU haven't heard of them doesn't make them
> > unknown.
> > 2. A BIOS update will probably cure the problem-- motherboards, by
> > their very nature, MUST be OS-agnostic, so a board that won't run
> > Linux usually just needs a BIOS re-flash, or simpler still, a BIOS
> > reset-- problems which can happen with ANY brand of mobo,
> > believe me.
> > Did you Google the brand and model, by the way?
> >
> > -- Mikey
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your
> > pocket:
> >
> > mail, news, photos & more.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places
> > on
> > Yahoo! Travel.
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places 
> on 
> Yahoo! Travel.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


 
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/9d7ef07b/attachment-0001.html>

From mcmay at rgis.com  Wed Jul 11 09:58:38 2007
From: mcmay at rgis.com (Mathew May)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:58:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <1184099320.3598.3.camel@plumber.site>
References: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1184099320.3598.3.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <1184162318.3126.1.camel@issmcmmb>

There are actually three versions now.  OpenSuse is the free product
SLED (SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop) and SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise
Server) are the purchase products.

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 16:28 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 12:12 -0700, David Lane wrote:
> >  
> >  
> > Is OpenSuse just a name change ?
> >  
> > Are there ant issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?
> >  
> 
> David,
> 	They did reorganize the way their products are named. Opensuse is the
> free as in beer version and I think "SLED" is now the boxed version with
> support. There's another recent thread that deals with opensuse issues,
> as it were.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 11:14:28 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:14:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <1184162318.3126.1.camel@issmcmmb>
Message-ID: <932513.41860.qm@web37904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I'm just wandering if upgrading from Suse 10.1 to Opensuse 10.2 is a natual progression.
   
  David 
   
  
Mathew May <mcmay at rgis.com> wrote:
  There are actually three versions now. OpenSuse is the free product
SLED (SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop) and SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise
Server) are the purchase products.

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 16:28 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 12:12 -0700, David Lane wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Is OpenSuse just a name change ?
> > 
> > Are there ant issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?
> > 
> 
> David,
> They did reorganize the way their products are named. Opensuse is the
> free as in beer version and I think "SLED" is now the boxed version with
> support. There's another recent thread that deals with opensuse issues,
> as it were.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/e88e89da/attachment-0001.html>

From gib at juno.com  Wed Jul 11 13:45:00 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:45:00 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] I've got a potential conflict for 7/14 meeting - Okay Now
Message-ID: <20070711.134500.15842.1@webmail38.lax.untd.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/10123182/attachment-0001.ksh>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/10123182/attachment-0001.html>

From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 11 13:48:50 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:48:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] I've got a potential conflict for 7/14 meeting - Okay
	Now
In-Reply-To: <20070711.134500.15842.1@webmail38.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <280156.12878.qm@web37911.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What is the main topic?
  

"gib at juno.com" <gib at juno.com> wrote:
     
  The conflict went away.  The launch was delayed.
   
  I'll be bringing Pepsi, Diet Pepsi and Slim Jims.
  Also a co-worker will come who is trying to install Linux on a new system.
   


_____________________________________________________________
Click here to refinance your mortgage. Low rates, approval in minutes.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

       
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070711/f878c327/attachment-0001.html>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 17:54:34 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:54:34 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] System Build Saga
In-Reply-To: <545279.61319.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4694E0FE.6010404@impelind.com>
	<545279.61319.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707111454h991fa4ibe7fdbe939507448@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/11/07, David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com> wrote:
> For Heat it might be.  I have not seen any data on Heat disapation between
> AMD and Intel.

Tom's Hardware just posted an article about energy efficiency.  The
title says it all:
www.tomshardware.com/2007/07/11/energy-efficiency-intel-left-out-in-the-cold/


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Jul 11 13:09:57 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:09:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com> (message from David
	Lane on Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT))
References: <330813.43763.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070711170957.62F4A20AAFD@starfox.local>

David,

> Is OpenSuse just a name change ?

At this time, they differ only by the "Microsoft tax", but IMHO
content divergence will become significant in less than a year.

When SuSE was a German company targetting small businesses, it published
two lines of distro, SuSE and SuSE Pro.  SuSE was unencumbered, and came
on CDs and DVDs with hardcopy manuals, convenient for the administration
of several differently configured computers, as found at most small
businesses.  SuSE Pro included SuSE and several proprietary packages,
bundled at a discount.  (I found the Opera and Communicator seat
enough to justify the additional cost.)

<OVERSIMPLIFIED>When Novell bought SuSE, they tried to eliminate the
online support database, eliminate the unencumbered line,
use downloadable source from a throttled server to
satisfy GPL requirements, and get free tech support by giving OpenSuSE
to the community.<OVERSIMPLIFIED>

This backfired and they reconnected (but do not support) the online database,
eliminated the encumbered line, are threatened by GPL warranty issues,
and the community has been wary.

With the recent announcement that Novell will pay the "Microsoft tax",
many OpenSuSE supporters have moved to ubuntu, gentoo, and mepis.
   
> Are there [any] issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?

None that I am aware of.

-- 
Dr. B

"To translate it into UNIX system administration terms (Randy's
fundamental metaphor for just about everything), the post-modern,
politically correct atheists were like people who had suddenly found
themselves in charge of a big and unfathomably complex computer system
(viz. society) with no documentation or instruction of any kind, and so
whose only way to keep the thing running was to invent and enforce
certain rules with a kind of neo-Puritanic rigor, because they were at
a loss to deal with any deviations from what they saw as the norm.
Whereas people who were wired into a church were like UNIX system
administrators who, while they might not understand everything, at least
had some documentation, som FAQs and How-tos and README files, providing
some guidance on what to do when things got out of whack.  They were, in
other words, capable of displaying adaptability."
      -- Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon, p.585


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 12 08:23:03 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 05:23:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Suse 10.1 --> OpenSuse 10.2
In-Reply-To: <20070711170957.62F4A20AAFD@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <937922.29615.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I liked getting it from the store.  Now I have to download it.
   
  Thanks 

"Dr. Robert J. Meier" <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
  David,

> Is OpenSuse just a name change ?

At this time, they differ only by the "Microsoft tax", but IMHO
content divergence will become significant in less than a year.

When SuSE was a German company targetting small businesses, it published
two lines of distro, SuSE and SuSE Pro. SuSE was unencumbered, and came
on CDs and DVDs with hardcopy manuals, convenient for the administration
of several differently configured computers, as found at most small
businesses. SuSE Pro included SuSE and several proprietary packages,
bundled at a discount. (I found the Opera and Communicator seat
enough to justify the additional cost.)

When Novell bought SuSE, they tried to eliminate the
online support database, eliminate the unencumbered line,
use downloadable source from a throttled server to
satisfy GPL requirements, and get free tech support by giving OpenSuSE
to the community.

This backfired and they reconnected (but do not support) the online database,
eliminated the encumbered line, are threatened by GPL warranty issues,
and the community has been wary.

With the recent announcement that Novell will pay the "Microsoft tax",
many OpenSuSE supporters have moved to ubuntu, gentoo, and mepis.

> Are there [any] issues upgrading from Suse 10.1 to OpenSuse 10.2?

None that I am aware of.

-- 
Dr. B

"To translate it into UNIX system administration terms (Randy's
fundamental metaphor for just about everything), the post-modern,
politically correct atheists were like people who had suddenly found
themselves in charge of a big and unfathomably complex computer system
(viz. society) with no documentation or instruction of any kind, and so
whose only way to keep the thing running was to invent and enforce
certain rules with a kind of neo-Puritanic rigor, because they were at
a loss to deal with any deviations from what they saw as the norm.
Whereas people who were wired into a church were like UNIX system
administrators who, while they might not understand everything, at least
had some documentation, som FAQs and How-tos and README files, providing
some guidance on what to do when things got out of whack. They were, in
other words, capable of displaying adaptability."
-- Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon, p.585
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


 
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and 
always stay connected to friends.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070712/6adb50bc/attachment-0001.html>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 14:51:27 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:51:27 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Can't make it to the meeting this Saturday :(
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707131151s17e20fb9qc9a9b46d338a4240@mail.gmail.com>

Customer's PC failed (in Alpena) and I have to finish and drop off
their spare Saturday.  I upgraded the RAM on the failed system with
PC3200 but it wouldn't boot unless the original PC2100 was also
installed.  Now its crashing.  Probably needs a BIOS update.


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 08:27:31 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:27:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Quick tips: VLC Media Player shortcuts
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>

I ran across this short video on CNET TV and found it useful-- a quick
guide to the keyboard shortcuts for VLC while in full-screen mode:
<http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-28193.html>

If you haven't tried it, it's an excellent cross-platform media player
for nearly every file format out there (of course, you need the right
codecs-- though many are provided).

-- Mikey


From davidl at lmert.com  Sat Jul 14 08:33:11 2007
From: davidl at lmert.com (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:33:11 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Job lead
Message-ID: <200707140833.46009.davidl@lmert.com>

My employer (located just outside of Lansing) would like to hire another 
developer.  We're have a mixed Linux/Windows server environment,  and our 
biggest in-house applications are written in Java.  To quote from the 
official job posting:

"Precision Motor Transport Group, LLC (PMTG), a premium automobile carrier, 
seeks a highly qualified Software Developer to join its staff. The candidate 
will need to be comfortable working with, evaluating, and debugging existing 
systems as well as developing new software. Requirements: four-year degree in 
computer science or equivalent work experience, 3+ years Java development 
experience, 3+ years Relational database /SQL experience, 1+ years in web 
development, and excellent communication /documentation skills. We offer a 
comfortable, casual environment, competitive pay, excellent benefits. Only 
resumes with a cover letter stating salary requirements will be considered. 
No phone calls please."

The company's website is:  http://www.pmtghome.com

If anyone is interested in this job,  it would be appropriate to contact my 
supervisor,  Tom Stave,  by e-mail at 

  tstave at bmtcarhaul.com

-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt


From linux at ksimachine.com  Sat Jul 14 11:02:50 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:02:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] off topic - Novell
Message-ID: <4698E59A.8070601@ksimachine.com>

Sorry in advance for the none Linux question.

Would any one know where I can get a copy or borrow a copy of a NetWare
3.2 Enhancement Pack CD?

Thanks.


Joe St.Clair


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Sat Jul 14 01:50:10 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:50:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] How to load LG VX-6100/VX-8300 from linux
Message-ID: <20070714055010.84272A976A@Painter.local>

Phone users,

I just acquired an LG VX-6100 and a friend acquired a VX-8300.

I understand both can be programmed from a PC.

Is anyone doing so?
How is it done?
What are the standard protocols for programming cellphones?
     What are linux tools for such?

TIA
-- 
Dr. B



From peter at petertheplumber.net  Sat Jul 14 12:05:18 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 12:05:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] How to load LG VX-6100/VX-8300 from linux
In-Reply-To: <20070714055010.84272A976A@Painter.local>
References: <20070714055010.84272A976A@Painter.local>
Message-ID: <1184429119.3658.1.camel@plumber.site>

On Sat, 2007-07-14 at 01:50 -0400, Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> Phone users,
> 
> I just acquired an LG VX-6100 and a friend acquired a VX-8300.
> 
> I understand both can be programmed from a PC.
> 
> Is anyone doing so?
> How is it done?
> What are the standard protocols for programming cellphones?
>      What are linux tools for such?


Dr. B,
	I'm not sure about what you're trying to do, but a good source of
information and links is <http://howardforums.com/>. 
Good Luck,
-- 
Peter Bart <peter at petertheplumber.net>
http://petertheplumber.net



From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 12:11:31 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 12:11:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Quick tips: VLC Media Player shortcuts
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707140911y1272237fq5125acfd151c136d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/14/07, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I ran across this short video on CNET TV and found it useful-- a quick
> guide to the keyboard shortcuts for VLC while in full-screen mode:
> <http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-28193.html>

Useful for n00bs.  Thanks.


From tony at bemushosting.com  Sat Jul 14 21:16:18 2007
From: tony at bemushosting.com (Tony Bemus)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 21:16:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] How to load LG VX-6100/VX-8300 from linux
In-Reply-To: <1184429119.3658.1.camel@plumber.site>
References: <20070714055010.84272A976A@Painter.local>
	<1184429119.3658.1.camel@plumber.site>
Message-ID: <1184462178.14378.3.camel@bemus-tony>

I use Bitpim with my Phone LG VX-8100.
I use it to sync my calendar, my SMS messages (Text messages),  call
logs, and Ring tones.  I know it can do more then I use it for.  You can
also browse the File system on the phone and edit files to hack your
phone.

Tony

On Sat, 2007-07-14 at 12:05 -0400, Peter Bart wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-07-14 at 01:50 -0400, Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> > Phone users,
> > 
> > I just acquired an LG VX-6100 and a friend acquired a VX-8300.
> > 
> > I understand both can be programmed from a PC.
> > 
> > Is anyone doing so?
> > How is it done?
> > What are the standard protocols for programming cellphones?
> >      What are linux tools for such?
> 
> 
> Dr. B,
> 	I'm not sure about what you're trying to do, but a good source of
> information and links is <http://howardforums.com/>. 
> Good Luck,
-- 
Tony Bemus
Bemus Hosting
www.bemushosting.com



From cvweiss at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 15:29:44 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 15:29:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Quick tips: VLC Media Player shortcuts
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707140527o489b9e46i6679f95da921f3d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707151229l3e21eb8amad2d155394a4bf49@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/14/07, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I ran across this short video on CNET TV and found it useful-- a quick
> guide to the keyboard shortcuts for VLC while in full-screen mode:
> <http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-28193.html>
>
> If you haven't tried it, it's an excellent cross-platform media player
> for nearly every file format out there (of course, you need the right
> codecs-- though many are provided).
>
> -- Mikey
>

All I want from VLC is for it to automatically close after it is done
playing a video *without* having to add any command line parameters.  Why is
this not an option?


mplayer does this by default, and I've become accustomed to it.

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070715/0770a369/attachment-0001.html>

From brian at detroitindustrial.org  Sun Jul 15 05:15:10 2007
From: brian at detroitindustrial.org (Brian Hurley)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 05:15:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] off topic - Novell
In-Reply-To: <4698E59A.8070601@ksimachine.com>
References: <4698E59A.8070601@ksimachine.com>
Message-ID: <200707150515.10352.brian@detroitindustrial.org>

On Saturday 14 July 2007, Joe St.Clair wrote:
> Sorry in advance for the none Linux question.
>
> Would any one know where I can get a copy or borrow a copy of a NetWare
> 3.2 Enhancement Pack CD?
>

Wasn't that the Y2K fixpack collection for NetWare 3.12?

If so, you can't download it for free (as I recall it cost $200), but all the 
individual components were free downloads. Try searching for NetWare 3.12 and 
Y2K updates, or just download the current 3.12 versions of everything.

-- 
Brian Hurley
Detroit Industrial Underground
www.detroitindustrial.org

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out 
the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them.
--Frederick Douglass


From tmorris at ugs.com  Mon Jul 16 15:53:09 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 14:53:09 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] Can't make it to the meeting this Saturday :(
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707131151s17e20fb9qc9a9b46d338a4240@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335C8F6@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

I was just camping up there last weekend... You should've told me ;) 


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Jeff Hanson
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 2:51 PM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: [mdlug] Can't make it to the meeting this Saturday :(

Customer's PC failed (in Alpena) and I have to finish and drop off their
spare Saturday.  I upgraded the RAM on the failed system with PC3200 but
it wouldn't boot unless the original PC2100 was also installed.  Now its
crashing.  Probably needs a BIOS update.
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From linux at ksimachine.com  Mon Jul 16 18:44:40 2007
From: linux at ksimachine.com (Joe St.Clair)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:44:40 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] off topic - Novell
In-Reply-To: <200707150515.10352.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
References: <4698E59A.8070601@ksimachine.com>
	<200707150515.10352.brian@detroitindustrial.org>
Message-ID: <469BF4D8.1050606@ksimachine.com>

Brian Hurley wrote:
> On Saturday 14 July 2007, Joe St.Clair wrote:
>   
>> Sorry in advance for the none Linux question.
>>
>> Would any one know where I can get a copy or borrow a copy of a NetWare
>> 3.2 Enhancement Pack CD?
>>
>>     
>
> Wasn't that the Y2K fixpack collection for NetWare 3.12?
>
> If so, you can't download it for free (as I recall it cost $200), but all the 
> individual components were free downloads. Try searching for NetWare 3.12 and 
> Y2K updates, or just download the current 3.12 versions of everything.
>
>   
There was some fixes also.  Some had to do with memory and hardware issues.
The original Enhancement pack CD was $395.  We can't seem to find our disk.

Thanks.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070716/a8b10ab3/attachment-0001.html>

From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 18:56:58 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:56:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>

Remeber the M$ surface interface?
www.microsoft.com/surface/

Here is an alternative - MPX:
wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 00:06:36 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:06:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707162106r3fe7d5c4t6fac1ab807629ade@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/16/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Remeber the M$ surface interface?
> www.microsoft.com/surface/
>
> Here is an alternative - MPX:
> wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86


It's interesting how multi-touch is suddenly the coolest thing.  We
have things like the Apple iPhone and the Microsoft Surface, each with
its respective creator telling us how cool this multi-touch stuff is.
The only problem here is that multi-touch has been around since the
early 80's.  They've invented nothing here.

-Joseph


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul 17 08:10:30 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 08:10:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430707162106r3fe7d5c4t6fac1ab807629ade@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd889b430707162106r3fe7d5c4t6fac1ab807629ade@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469CB1B6.7050402@impelind.com>


-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: Joseph Vartanian <jvartanian at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:06:36 AM
> On 7/16/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Remeber the M$ surface interface?
>> www.microsoft.com/surface/
>>
>> Here is an alternative - MPX:
>> wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86
>>     
>
>
> It's interesting how multi-touch is suddenly the coolest thing.  We
> have things like the Apple iPhone and the Microsoft Surface, each with
> its respective creator telling us how cool this multi-touch stuff is.
> The only problem here is that multi-touch has been around since the
> early 80's.  They've invented nothing here.
>
> -Joseph
>   

    Heck, that's even discounting Nintendo's Wii Console, which beat the 
iPhone to market by more than a few months. Multiple Wiimotes can 
interact with things on screen simultaneously.

    Take that slightly further, Pong beat pretty much everything, since 
two controllers interacted with the on screen activity at the same time...

    It's nothing new, just a different angle of approach.

    -Rob


From tmorris at ugs.com  Tue Jul 17 12:50:57 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:50:57 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430707162106r3fe7d5c4t6fac1ab807629ade@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

Nothing new. It's called marketing. Don't you guys remember when
Microsoft "invented" the symbolic link? 

Words have no meaning these days.

--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Joseph Vartanian
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:07 AM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer

On 7/16/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Remeber the M$ surface interface?
> www.microsoft.com/surface/
>
> Here is an alternative - MPX:
> wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86


It's interesting how multi-touch is suddenly the coolest thing.  We have
things like the Apple iPhone and the Microsoft Surface, each with its
respective creator telling us how cool this multi-touch stuff is.
The only problem here is that multi-touch has been around since the
early 80's.  They've invented nothing here.

-Joseph
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul 17 13:16:30 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:16:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
References: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: Morris, Tim <tmorris at ugs.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:50:57 PM
> Nothing new. It's called marketing. Don't you guys remember when
> Microsoft "invented" the symbolic link? 
>
> Words have no meaning these days.
>
> --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
>   
    Their "symbolic link" isn't even a real "symbolic" link. It's some 
binary crap that contains information about where the real file is. 
This, for some bizarre reason, sometimes comes across as a complete 
surprise to even instructors of computer science classes who are 
familiar with how UNIX Symbolic links function.

    MS does some really crappy things when they copy an original 
idea/concept.

    Did you know that there is a method in the NTFS file system to truly 
and effectively hide files? I forgot the exact name of the feature, I 
believe it's called "slip" something. What it does is allows you to 
"hide" files by filling in the remaining bits of a cluster that aren't 
fully used by the real/visible file. It's slipping a file into/under an 
existing file and it supposedly completely hides the file.

    I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature that 
would be acceptable in a "secure" environment, since one could use that 
feature to sneak secrets out of a computer network within an otherwise 
benign file.

    -Rob


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 14:01:24 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:01:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
References: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
	<469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707171101g37496500s43049abd409b995e@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/17/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
> From: Morris, Tim <tmorris at ugs.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:50:57 PM
> > Nothing new. It's called marketing. Don't you guys remember when
> > Microsoft "invented" the symbolic link?
> >
> > Words have no meaning these days.
> >
> > --  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software
> >
>     Their "symbolic link" isn't even a real "symbolic" link. It's some
> binary crap that contains information about where the real file is.
> This, for some bizarre reason, sometimes comes across as a complete
> surprise to even instructors of computer science classes who are
> familiar with how UNIX Symbolic links function.
>
>     MS does some really crappy things when they copy an original
> idea/concept.
>
>     Did you know that there is a method in the NTFS file system to truly
> and effectively hide files? I forgot the exact name of the feature, I
> believe it's called "slip" something. What it does is allows you to
> "hide" files by filling in the remaining bits of a cluster that aren't
> fully used by the real/visible file. It's slipping a file into/under an
> existing file and it supposedly completely hides the file.
>
>     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature that
> would be acceptable in a "secure" environment, since one could use that
> feature to sneak secrets out of a computer network within an otherwise
> benign file.


That NTFS feature is called "alternative data streams".  Play with it
a little...it's actually interesting.  You can do something like
create a 1 KB text file, and then hide a 500 KB executable in it.  The
thing still looks like a 1 KB text file that you can open and use like
any regular text file, but you can also run the executable hidden in
it with a simple command.  Some spyware and trojan writers have
learned to utilize alternative data streams to hide their files.  Many
anti-spyware and anti-virus programs don't search for alternative data
streams.  Windows also does not come with any tool to let you find
alternative data stream in your filesystem.  If you want that, you
have to download tools like Sysinternals' Streams (now owned by
Microsoft).  From what I understand Apple has something similar in
their OS, but I'm not much into Apple.

-Joseph


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Jul 17 14:04:51 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:04:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430707171101g37496500s43049abd409b995e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>	<469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
	<dd889b430707171101g37496500s43049abd409b995e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469D04C3.8010701@impelind.com>


>>     Did you know that there is a method in the NTFS file system to truly
>> and effectively hide files? I forgot the exact name of the feature, I
>> believe it's called "slip" something. What it does is allows you to
>> "hide" files by filling in the remaining bits of a cluster that aren't
>> fully used by the real/visible file. It's slipping a file into/under an
>> existing file and it supposedly completely hides the file.
>>
>>     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature that
>> would be acceptable in a "secure" environment, since one could use that
>> feature to sneak secrets out of a computer network within an otherwise
>> benign file.
>>     
>
>
> That NTFS feature is called "alternative data streams".  Play with it
> a little...it's actually interesting.  You can do something like
> create a 1 KB text file, and then hide a 500 KB executable in it.  The
> thing still looks like a 1 KB text file that you can open and use like
> any regular text file, but you can also run the executable hidden in
> it with a simple command.  Some spyware and trojan writers have
> learned to utilize alternative data streams to hide their files.  Many
> anti-spyware and anti-virus programs don't search for alternative data
> streams.  Windows also does not come with any tool to let you find
> alternative data stream in your filesystem.  If you want that, you
> have to download tools like Sysinternals' Streams (now owned by
> Microsoft).  From what I understand Apple has something similar in
> their OS, but I'm not much into Apple.
>
> -Joseph
>   

    Pardon my language...

    That is a fucking ridiculous feature that serves no legit purpose.

    -Rob


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 17 14:35:12 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:35:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
References: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20335CCC5@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
	<469CF96E.8080500@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <469D0BE0.9090600@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature that 
> would be acceptable in a "secure" environment, since one could use that 
> feature to sneak secrets out of a computer network within an otherwise 
> benign file.
>   

It might be tinfoil hat thinking, but as much as MS likes to poke into
"MY" computer this function does not surprise me at all.  The better to
hide their "offical" spys.

Worse, it lets anyone that knows about it hide their malicious files too.

ERGO:  NTSF is an unsecured and unsecureable file system.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Jul 17 16:12:39 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:12:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469D0BE0.9090600@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E45@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Garry Stahl

> >     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature...

> It might be tinfoil hat thinking, but as much as MS likes to poke into
> "MY" computer this function does not surprise me at all.  The better to
> hide their "offical" spys.

 Actually, I think this can be attributed to stupidity rather than malice.
Macs use a second data stream in a file to good effect - the "Resource Fork".
(The regular data is called the "Data Fork"). The "Resource Fork" can contain
things like dialog box definitions, internationalizable strings, and so forth.
There was a tool called "ResEdit" that would let you play with them; you could
change the sounds an application made or whatever.

 MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
A lot of their stuff is like that, just features to list in marketing
brochures.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

 "Well, I say there are some things we don't *want* to know!
            Important things!" - Ned Flanders

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From jvartanian at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 18:40:44 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:40:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E45@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <469D0BE0.9090600@comcast.net>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E45@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707171540l756129f1nbd5593fed6e4c25c@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/17/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > From: Garry Stahl
>
> > >     I have no idea why anyone would consider that a "good" feature...
>
> > It might be tinfoil hat thinking, but as much as MS likes to poke into
> > "MY" computer this function does not surprise me at all.  The better to
> > hide their "offical" spys.
>
>  Actually, I think this can be attributed to stupidity rather than malice.
> Macs use a second data stream in a file to good effect - the "Resource Fork".
> (The regular data is called the "Data Fork"). The "Resource Fork" can contain
> things like dialog box definitions, internationalizable strings, and so forth.
> There was a tool called "ResEdit" that would let you play with them; you could
> change the sounds an application made or whatever.
>
>  MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
> A lot of their stuff is like that, just features to list in marketing
> brochures.

Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
Yeah, ADS may be scary, but they do use it for something.  I can't
tell you who outside Microsoft has a legitimate use for ADS, but at
least we know Microsoft has a use for it.  I'm sure other companies
use it, I just don't know who...never cared to find out.  If you're
twisted and like to consider spyware, trojans and rootkits as
legitimate uses, then there's that too.

-Joseph


From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Wed Jul 18 06:34:45 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:34:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] zap2it lab update
Message-ID: <469DECC5.4060207@starline-ent.com>

Good news
It looks like progress is being made to find/create a replacement for 
the zap2it labs TV listing service that will be discontinued September 1.

This will effect all you MythTV users

http://www.linux.com/feature/117717


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Jul 18 09:32:20 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:32:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430707171540l756129f1nbd5593fed6e4c25c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Joseph Vartanian

> >  MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.

> Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.

 But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
products *less* portable... :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317

 "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
     21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
                            Steven Waldman
     http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 11:10:53 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:10:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>

Curious.

Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a 
government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's 
file system?

Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that 
certification?

If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a 
massive shit storm over this "feature"?

-Rob

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
>> From: Joseph Vartanian
>>     
>
>   
>>>  MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
>>>       
>
>   
>> Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
>> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
>>     
>
>  But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
> regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
> products *less* portable... :->
>
>  Sincerely,
>
>  Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317
>
>  "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
>      21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
>                             Steven Waldman
>      http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   



From carew at pobox.com  Wed Jul 18 11:22:28 2007
From: carew at pobox.com (Evan Carew)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:22:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <469E3034.9020606@pobox.com>

In the past, MS has received that clearance with the stipulation that no
peripherals be connected to the PC running that OS (mice and keyboards
excepted). Other stipulations included a case lock (eye wash) and no
network connection.

Evan

Robert Adkins wrote:

>Curious.
>
>Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a 
>government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's 
>file system?
>
>Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that 
>certification?
>
>If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a 
>massive shit storm over this "feature"?
>
>-Rob
>
>-------- Original Message  --------
>Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
>From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
>  
>
>>>From: Joseph Vartanian
>>>    
>>>      
>>>
>>  
>>    
>>
>>>> MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
>>>>      
>>>>        
>>>>
>>  
>>    
>>
>>>Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
>>>ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
>>>    
>>>      
>>>
>> But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
>>regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
>>products *less* portable... :->
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317
>>
>> "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
>>     21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
>>                            Steven Waldman
>>     http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
>>The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
>>_______________________________________________
>>mdlug mailing list
>>mdlug at mdlug.org
>>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>>  
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>  
>



From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 18 11:42:34 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:42:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <20070718154234.39234.qmail@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Well Military encrption is very strong.  And there are many levels of security befor you even get to the box.
   
  Remember the Intel computational error.  It was very minamal.  
   
  David 
  
Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  Curious.

Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a 
government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's 
file system?

Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that 
certification?

If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a 
massive shit storm over this "feature"?

-Rob

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: Ingles, Raymond 
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list 
Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
>> From: Joseph Vartanian
>> 
>
> 
>>> MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
>>> 
>
> 
>> Actually, they do have uses for this feature. MS SQL Server 2005 uses
>> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
>> 
>
> But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
> regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
> products *less* portable... :->
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
>
> "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
> 21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
> Steven Waldman
> http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 

_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake. 
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070718/d17a27ea/attachment-0001.html>

From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 11:44:33 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:44:33 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <20070718154234.39234.qmail@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20070718154234.39234.qmail@web37910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <469E3561.4060106@impelind.com>

It only takes one user, one mistake to compromise a Windows box. If the 
compromise happens with a very intelligently built program, then it most 
likely wouldn't matter what encryption they are using on the box, the 
hidden component could be injected into something innocuous and be 
duplicating/feeding that data through whatever pipe that was originally 
used to infiltrate the network.

-Rob

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: David Lane <dcl400m at yahoo.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 11:42:34 AM
> Well Military encrption is very strong.  And there are many levels of 
> security befor you even get to the box.
>  
> Remember the Intel computational error.  It was very minamal. 
>  
> David
>
> */Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com>/* wrote:
>
>     Curious.
>
>     Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a
>     government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's
>     file system?
>
>     Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that
>     certification?
>
>     If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a
>     massive shit storm over this "feature"?
>
>     -Rob
>
>     -------- Original Message --------
>     Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
>     From: Ingles, Raymond
>     To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
>     Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
>     >> From: Joseph Vartanian
>     >>
>     >
>     >
>     >>> MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a
>     use for it.
>     >>>
>     >
>     >
>     >> Actually, they do have uses for this feature. MS SQL Server
>     2005 uses
>     >> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
>     >>
>     >
>     > But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't
>     be done with
>     > regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just
>     to make those
>     > products *less* portable... :->
>     >
>     > Sincerely,
>     >
>     > Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
>     >
>     > "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the
>     views of
>     > 21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
>     > Steven Waldman
>     > http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
>     > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee
>     only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you
>     are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not
>     copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it
>     in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > mdlug mailing list
>     > mdlug at mdlug.org
>     > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>     >
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     mdlug mailing list
>     mdlug at mdlug.org
>     http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Building a website is a piece of cake.
> Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=48251/*http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting/?p=PASSPORTPLUS> 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 12:25:55 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:25:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Cute. Very cute. (No, not really.)
Message-ID: <469E3F13.6030502@impelind.com>

<http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/07/18/1434229.shtml>

    I do believe that the story speaks for itself. The FBI has the 
ability to remotely exploit computers (Presumably only Windows PCs, but 
I wouldn't bet that Macs are any safer) and install their own 'malware'.

    Here's my thoughts:

    1. I'm surprised that this showed up in a warrant. Nothing has 
stopped the FBI from abusing the PATRIOT Act before, why stop abusing it 
now?

    2. Who watches the watchers? How do we know that Agent Chip (On his 
Shoulder) isn't using his knowledge of this back door to compromise the 
systems of people he doesn't like? What kind of limit really exists on 
this back door? Presumably, if they can access the PC remotely to obtain 
records they would/could also add other data to the PC. How do we know 
for sure that someone (like Agent Chip) hasn't or won't ever use this 
power to plant evidence to help someone "get rid" of a problem individual?

    3. Where's the outrage?

    -Rob


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 18 12:33:06 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 09:33:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Cute. Very cute. (No, not really.)
In-Reply-To: <469E3F13.6030502@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <292303.76534.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is very simular to a phone tap. 
   
  And the ACLU American Civil Liberties Union might have some thing to say about it.
   
  David 
   
  
Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
  

I do believe that the story speaks for itself. The FBI has the 
ability to remotely exploit computers (Presumably only Windows PCs, but 
I wouldn't bet that Macs are any safer) and install their own 'malware'.

Here's my thoughts:

1. I'm surprised that this showed up in a warrant. Nothing has 
stopped the FBI from abusing the PATRIOT Act before, why stop abusing it 
now?

2. Who watches the watchers? How do we know that Agent Chip (On his 
Shoulder) isn't using his knowledge of this back door to compromise the 
systems of people he doesn't like? What kind of limit really exists on 
this back door? Presumably, if they can access the PC remotely to obtain 
records they would/could also add other data to the PC. How do we know 
for sure that someone (like Agent Chip) hasn't or won't ever use this 
power to plant evidence to help someone "get rid" of a problem individual?

3. Where's the outrage?

-Rob
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070718/ef3cc6d7/attachment-0001.html>

From gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 13:24:22 2007
From: gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com (G Balaji)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 13:24:22 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>

I dont recall everything, nor do I recall correctly, but I think: -

1. One of the initial reasoning for introduction of ADS was security.

2. Windows 2000 Professional edition was the only commercial OS (does
this exclude *BSD/Linux?) to be certified by the US Military that it
was compliant for one of their (top) INFOSEC standards, and I think
ADS played a big part in it.

3. ADS, in secure environments, is used to increase security by
placing additional file attributes - say, a document can be marked as
non-printable, even if it is readable and writeable. It can also be
used to embed file-application attributes - say, a document can be
opened with only Application X. It can also be used to embed
file-application-user attributes - say, a document can be printable
only by user X and only by using application Y. If these features of
ADS are used in the right secure environments, a file cannot be
compromised - modified/copied/sent-over-network etc, as long as the
(securely hardened) operating system is running.  These are in
addition to the security restrictions (ownership, group rights, disk
quota restrictions etc..) that are handled by, and stored in the file
system manager.

Also, ADS is programmer-extensible - any programmer can enhance their
security system by embedding their own dreamt-up custom rights using
ADS.

Of course, this customizable aspect of it was what was used by malware writers.

Apologies for not providing references.. some of what I'd read was on
real paper (the description of the referred INFOSEC standard was part
of a graduate-level Network Security course curriculum*); but most if
not all of the above can be looked into, and be either rejected or
accepted.

[* : some body else might recognize the actual standard from one of
what I thought was its salient feature: a user with a certain
clearance-level security can read a document at his security clearance
level and all lower levels, but can author/write a document only at
his clearance-level or higher]

-B.


On 7/18/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
> Curious.
>
> Does anyone know how Windows (NT/2K/XP) legitimately received a
> government security clearance with this gigantic glaring hole in it's
> file system?
>
> Does anyone know if that was even disclosed in the testing for that
> certification?
>
> If not, anyone interested in working towards organizing/raising a
> massive shit storm over this "feature"?
>
> -Rob
>
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
> From: Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:32:20 AM
> >> From: Joseph Vartanian
> >>
> >
> >
> >>>  MS put the capacity in NTFS, but never really came up with a use for it.
> >>>
> >
> >
> >> Actually, they do have uses for this feature.  MS SQL Server 2005 uses
> >> ADS (alternative data streams), as does MS Exchange Server 2003.
> >>
> >
> >  But, so far as I can see, there's nothing about ADS that can't be done with
> > regular files. I'd be willing to believe that they did that just to make those
> > products *less* portable... :->
> >
> >  Sincerely,
> >
> >  Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317
> >
> >  "Indeed, the one group that would almost certainly oppose the views of
> >      21st-century evangelicals are the 18th-century evangelicals."
> >                             Steven Waldman
> >      http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0604.waldman.html
> > The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 14:03:58 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:03:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
From: G Balaji <gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:24:22 PM
> I dont recall everything, nor do I recall correctly, but I think: -
>
> 1. One of the initial reasoning for introduction of ADS was security.
>
> 2. Windows 2000 Professional edition was the only commercial OS (does
> this exclude *BSD/Linux?) to be certified by the US Military that it
> was compliant for one of their (top) INFOSEC standards, and I think
> ADS played a big part in it.
>
> 3. ADS, in secure environments, is used to increase security by
> placing additional file attributes - say, a document can be marked as
> non-printable, even if it is readable and writeable. It can also be
> used to embed file-application attributes - say, a document can be
> opened with only Application X. It can also be used to embed
> file-application-user attributes - say, a document can be printable
> only by user X and only by using application Y. If these features of
> ADS are used in the right secure environments, a file cannot be
> compromised - modified/copied/sent-over-network etc, as long as the
> (securely hardened) operating system is running.  These are in
> addition to the security restrictions (ownership, group rights, disk
> quota restrictions etc..) that are handled by, and stored in the file
> system manager.
>
> Also, ADS is programmer-extensible - any programmer can enhance their
> security system by embedding their own dreamt-up custom rights using
> ADS.
>
> Of course, this customizable aspect of it was what was used by malware writers.
>
> Apologies for not providing references.. some of what I'd read was on
> real paper (the description of the referred INFOSEC standard was part
> of a graduate-level Network Security course curriculum*); but most if
> not all of the above can be looked into, and be either rejected or
> accepted.
>
> [* : some body else might recognize the actual standard from one of
> what I thought was its salient feature: a user with a certain
> clearance-level security can read a document at his security clearance
> level and all lower levels, but can author/write a document only at
> his clearance-level or higher]
>
> -B.
>
>   
    All of that is fine and dandy and some of that does make sense... 
except.

    A. Without using an externally available tool, there is no way for a 
user to know become aware that ADS has been used on their PC. (User 
includes the System Administrator who may have built the system and 
installed the OS as well.)

    B. Everything I have read shows that there is no logging performed 
regarding the creation, modification or deletion of any ADS elements.

    C. Even with what you wrote about the 
security/government/military/secret "benefits" of this, from what I have 
read pretty much anyone who has RW access to a given file can easily 
strip out anything placed into or inject more into the ADS of a given 
file. The utility is a simple built-in Windows command with no real 
security built into it. The NTFS Driver would have to be customized to 
understand to even look for the extra bits tucked away in the ADS in 
order to be of any real use.

    -Rob

   


From gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 14:31:07 2007
From: gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com (G Balaji)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:31:07 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
> -------- Original Message  --------
> Subject: Re:[mdlug] The new "surface" computer
> From: G Balaji <gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com>
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Date: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:24:22 PM
> > I dont recall everything, nor do I recall correctly, but I think: -
> >
> > 1. One of the initial reasoning for introduction of ADS was security.
> >
> > 2. Windows 2000 Professional edition was the only commercial OS (does
> > this exclude *BSD/Linux?) to be certified by the US Military that it
> > was compliant for one of their (top) INFOSEC standards, and I think
> > ADS played a big part in it.
> >
> > 3. ADS, in secure environments, is used to increase security by
> > placing additional file attributes - say, a document can be marked as
> > non-printable, even if it is readable and writeable. It can also be
> > used to embed file-application attributes - say, a document can be
> > opened with only Application X. It can also be used to embed
> > file-application-user attributes - say, a document can be printable
> > only by user X and only by using application Y. If these features of
> > ADS are used in the right secure environments, a file cannot be
> > compromised - modified/copied/sent-over-network etc, as long as the
> > (securely hardened) operating system is running.  These are in
> > addition to the security restrictions (ownership, group rights, disk
> > quota restrictions etc..) that are handled by, and stored in the file
> > system manager.
> >
> > Also, ADS is programmer-extensible - any programmer can enhance their
> > security system by embedding their own dreamt-up custom rights using
> > ADS.
> >
> > Of course, this customizable aspect of it was what was used by malware writers.
> >
> > Apologies for not providing references.. some of what I'd read was on
> > real paper (the description of the referred INFOSEC standard was part
> > of a graduate-level Network Security course curriculum*); but most if
> > not all of the above can be looked into, and be either rejected or
> > accepted.
> >
> > [* : some body else might recognize the actual standard from one of
> > what I thought was its salient feature: a user with a certain
> > clearance-level security can read a document at his security clearance
> > level and all lower levels, but can author/write a document only at
> > his clearance-level or higher]
> >
> > -B.
> >
> >
>     All of that is fine and dandy and some of that does make sense...
> except.
>
>     A. Without using an externally available tool, there is no way for a
> user to know become aware that ADS has been used on their PC. (User
> includes the System Administrator who may have built the system and
> installed the OS as well.)
>
>     B. Everything I have read shows that there is no logging performed
> regarding the creation, modification or deletion of any ADS elements.
>
>     C. Even with what you wrote about the
> security/government/military/secret "benefits" of this, from what I have
> read pretty much anyone who has RW access to a given file can easily
> strip out anything placed into or inject more into the ADS of a given
> file. The utility is a simple built-in Windows command with no real
> security built into it. The NTFS Driver would have to be customized to
> understand to even look for the extra bits tucked away in the ADS in
> order to be of any real use.
>
>     -Rob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

All true. I agree.

If the NTFS driver is not ADS-aware, then, yes the benefits of ADS washes away.
But, similarly, it is true of almost all non-encrypted file systems -
if the file system is not running, then there is no security for its'
files - the intruder can load his own file system manager, disregard
security flags, and steal information.

ADS was intended to be used as a small, but important, measure in
ensuring overall security of an operating system - but this works only
if all other measures are in place and are effective.

If not in the original design decisions, at least from the (harsh)
lessons learnt, ADS should have been severely restricted - if nothing
else, at least in the max size an ADS stream can grow up to.

-B.


From rrcb21 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 18 15:54:46 2007
From: rrcb21 at yahoo.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:54:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] zap2it lab update
Message-ID: <22826.47357.qm@web82304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


not ALL MythTV Users just those in the US and Canada.


----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com>
To: MDLUG <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:34:45 AM
Subject: [mdlug] zap2it lab update

Good news
It looks like progress is being made to find/create a replacement for 
the zap2it labs TV listing service that will be discontinued September 1.

This will effect all you MythTV users

http://www.linux.com/feature/117717
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug





From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jul 18 16:10:21 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:10:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>

>
>
> All true. I agree.
>
> If the NTFS driver is not ADS-aware, then, yes the benefits of ADS washes away.
> But, similarly, it is true of almost all non-encrypted file systems -
> if the file system is not running, then there is no security for its'
> files - the intruder can load his own file system manager, disregard
> security flags, and steal information.
>
> ADS was intended to be used as a small, but important, measure in
> ensuring overall security of an operating system - but this works only
> if all other measures are in place and are effective.
>
> If not in the original design decisions, at least from the (harsh)
> lessons learnt, ADS should have been severely restricted - if nothing
> else, at least in the max size an ADS stream can grow up to.
>
> -B.
>   

    I've been doing a little more reading and remembering about some 
File System things.

    Alternative Data Streams is not the same as Metadata.

    Metadata is part of the normal file and can be used to input things 
that the OS can use to determine what kind of file it is looking at. 
This is what Apple did for years with the Mac, even if it had something 
similar to ADS, as I understand it, this isn't what the Metadata is.

    Metadata is like a "header" in a file. In a way this metadata is 
similar to what you see in the first few lines of virtually every single 
Binary format CAD/CAM file. In the first few lines there is plain text 
information telling you the CAD System the file was generated from, what 
version, sometimes this information is more in depth and includes the 
part name/program name for the part the CAD File represents; when I say 
"Program Name" I am saying like the "Code Name" for some new automobile.

    Anyway, what got me thinking about this is some stuff I was reading 
regarding a need for people to start using the metadata features of file 
systems (I believe even FAT32 can do this) to get away from the finite 
combination of the three letter extension. This was talked up regarding 
the metadata capabilities of Linux and certain Desktop Environments. 
It's been a while since I read this stuff so my memory could be slightly 
off.

    -Rob


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jul 18 16:17:25 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:17:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>     Anyway, what got me thinking about this is some stuff I was reading 
> regarding a need for people to start using the metadata features of file 
> systems (I believe even FAT32 can do this) to get away from the finite 
> combination of the three letter extension. This was talked up regarding 
> the metadata capabilities of Linux and certain Desktop Environments. 
> It's been a while since I read this stuff so my memory could be slightly 
> off.
>   

Amiga (yea that again) uses file headers in that fashion from the very
start.  Learning to add file extensions was something I had to do once I
started using DOS based systems.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 16:31:14 2007
From: gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com (G Balaji)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:31:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <a42f3f3d0707181331j5a53d117g8c87c073de271c46@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > All true. I agree.
> >
> > If the NTFS driver is not ADS-aware, then, yes the benefits of ADS washes away.
> > But, similarly, it is true of almost all non-encrypted file systems -
> > if the file system is not running, then there is no security for its'
> > files - the intruder can load his own file system manager, disregard
> > security flags, and steal information.
> >
> > ADS was intended to be used as a small, but important, measure in
> > ensuring overall security of an operating system - but this works only
> > if all other measures are in place and are effective.
> >
> > If not in the original design decisions, at least from the (harsh)
> > lessons learnt, ADS should have been severely restricted - if nothing
> > else, at least in the max size an ADS stream can grow up to.
> >
> > -B.
> >
>
>     I've been doing a little more reading and remembering about some
> File System things.
>
>     Alternative Data Streams is not the same as Metadata.
>
>     Metadata is part of the normal file and can be used to input things
> that the OS can use to determine what kind of file it is looking at.
> This is what Apple did for years with the Mac, even if it had something
> similar to ADS, as I understand it, this isn't what the Metadata is.
>
>     Metadata is like a "header" in a file. In a way this metadata is
> similar to what you see in the first few lines of virtually every single
> Binary format CAD/CAM file. In the first few lines there is plain text
> information telling you the CAD System the file was generated from, what
> version, sometimes this information is more in depth and includes the
> part name/program name for the part the CAD File represents; when I say
> "Program Name" I am saying like the "Code Name" for some new automobile.
>
>     Anyway, what got me thinking about this is some stuff I was reading
> regarding a need for people to start using the metadata features of file
> systems (I believe even FAT32 can do this) to get away from the finite
> combination of the three letter extension. This was talked up regarding
> the metadata capabilities of Linux and certain Desktop Environments.
> It's been a while since I read this stuff so my memory could be slightly
> off.
>
>     -Rob
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

True, ADS and meta-data are dis-similar. But, ADS _can_ be used to
store meta-data. And meta-data is not used to store the kind and range
of data an ADS can store.

On the other hand, meta-data is application-specific. The Portable
Network Graphics standard defines allowable meta-data in its file
structure specification. The Java Virtual Machine Specification
defines allowable meta-data in its specification.

But a PNG viewer cannot make sense of a Java class file, and a Java
class decompiler cannot make sense of a PNG file.

And, if the operating system is not made aware of the application to
which a file (extension *) is to be associated with, it has no use for
the meta-data embedded in the files.

* - Although file name extensions are commonly used as "the way" to
determine application affinity, this is another way on the Internet.
>From a web server, one can stream a Java class file - MyClass.class -
with the mime type of image/png and the PNG viewer will be invoked to
view the file (and will fail, of course, even with the 0xCAFEBABE Java
class file indicator in the first few bytes of the file).

-B.


From gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 16:32:41 2007
From: gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com (G Balaji)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:32:41 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com> <469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> >     Anyway, what got me thinking about this is some stuff I was reading
> > regarding a need for people to start using the metadata features of file
> > systems (I believe even FAT32 can do this) to get away from the finite
> > combination of the three letter extension. This was talked up regarding
> > the metadata capabilities of Linux and certain Desktop Environments.
> > It's been a while since I read this stuff so my memory could be slightly
> > off.
> >
>
> Amiga (yea that again) uses file headers in that fashion from the very
> start.  Learning to add file extensions was something I had to do once I
> started using DOS based systems.
>
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
>
> Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
> Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
> The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>

I am not familiar with Amiga. In Amiga, how were files associated with
applications? Was the operating system aware of the
file-header-application association?

-B.


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jul 18 17:00:32 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:00:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
	<469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>
	<a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469E7F70.1090007@comcast.net>

G Balaji wrote:
> I am not familiar with Amiga. In Amiga, how were files associated with
> applications? Was the operating system aware of the
> file-header-application association?
>   

Yes, file extensions were not used.  They could be used by were not
required.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jul 18 20:20:53 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:20:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] t-bird system font size?
Message-ID: <906793.87318.qm@web81801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello, I just got a new system and when I first boot, it defaults to 1900 x 1200.   I've managed to get all my other non-thunderbird fonts to be an acceptable size.     But the menus in thunderbird are still super tiny.   And so are the emails.  I can barely read them.    I can't find any way to adjust this.  I've checked the help and looked on the web.    Does anyone know how to do this?      (I'm doing this from webmail, which is fine).     Thanks.     
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070718/46edc042/attachment-0001.html>

From jvartanian at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 23:02:38 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:02:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707161556o4bb85544nd5819db5f39fc15c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd889b430707182002x5fb7635u8a64c14b383a1a54@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/16/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Remeber the M$ surface interface?
> www.microsoft.com/surface/
>
> Here is an alternative - MPX:
> wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/?q=node/86


Going back to the original subject of the Microsoft Surface...check
out this great parody video about it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY

-Joseph


From jjn at nuge.com  Thu Jul 19 06:32:53 2007
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 06:32:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Washtenaw Linux Users Group Meeting 7/19/07 (TONIGHT!!!)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0707190623080.5210-100000@home.nuge.com>



                    *** Meeting Announcement ***
                             for the
                 Washtenaw Linux Users Group - WLUG

           Date/Time: Thursday July 19th at 8pm

           Location:  Washtenaw Community College
                      4800 E.Huron River Drive
                      Ann Arbor, Michigan
                      Room BE-182

              Topic:  Amarok & XMMS sound systems
                 By:  Kevin O'Brien

   Kevin will show us the ins and outs of the Amarok and XMMS sound 
systems used in Linux.

      *AND*

   Kraig Hayner will show us a commercial rack-mounted Linux server and
describe the "features" that make it usefull for deployment in a remote
data center.

 
   NOTE: Yeah yeah yeah, the webpage hasn't been updated since April.  I
really don't care.  I may or may not attend the meeting.  Procede without
me if I don't show up! --- Jay

                         ================================

      See [www.lugwash.org] for further information about the Washtenaw 
Linux Users Group, maps and directions, and mailing list information.

          --- Jay

"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
 be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  6:01am  up 130 days,  2:28,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.06, 0.03




From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 10:57:55 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:57:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>

I thought this was interesting considering how Linux-unfriendly they are:
www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-nicholas18jul18,0,7022711.story?coll=la-home-center

Flush with wealth from Broadcom Corp.'s 1998 public stock offering,
computer chip magnate Henry T. Nicholas III made a few additions to
his equestrian estate in Laguna Hills: hidden doors and secret levers,
an underground grotto, tunnels and a 2,000-square-foot sports bar he
called "Nick's Cafe."

But there was more, according to a claim made in court documents:
plans for a "secret and convenient lair" with hidden entries for
Nicholas to indulge his "manic obsession with prostitutes" and
"addiction to cocaine and Ecstasy."


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Jul 19 11:12:14 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:12:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <469F7F4E.2010205@impelind.com>

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
From: Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Date: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:57:55 AM
> I thought this was interesting considering how Linux-unfriendly they are:
> www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-nicholas18jul18,0,7022711.story?coll=la-home-center
>
> Flush with wealth from Broadcom Corp.'s 1998 public stock offering,
> computer chip magnate Henry T. Nicholas III made a few additions to
> his equestrian estate in Laguna Hills: hidden doors and secret levers,
> an underground grotto, tunnels and a 2,000-square-foot sports bar he
> called "Nick's Cafe."
>
> But there was more, according to a claim made in court documents:
> plans for a "secret and convenient lair" with hidden entries for
> Nicholas to indulge his "manic obsession with prostitutes" and
> "addiction to cocaine and Ecstasy."
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   

    Isn't that the dream that everyone has?

    kidding.... kidding...

    -Rob


From jjn at nuge.com  Thu Jul 19 14:21:26 2007
From: jjn at nuge.com (Jay Nugent)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:21:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
In-Reply-To: <469F7F4E.2010205@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0707191414420.5210-100000@home.nuge.com>

Greetings,

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007, Robert Adkins wrote:

> > But there was more, according to a claim made in court documents:
> > plans for a "secret and convenient lair" with hidden entries for
> > Nicholas to indulge his "manic obsession with prostitutes" and
> > "addiction to cocaine and Ecstasy."

> 
>     Isn't that the dream that everyone has?
> 
>     kidding.... kidding...

   "Do you ever have that dream where you're naked, and a dozen beautiful 
women are tossing little pickles at you?"  -- Val Kilmer in 'Real Genius'


      --- Jay
             
"Getting rid of terrorism is like getting rid of dandruff.  It cannot
 be done completely no matter how hard you try." -- Gore Vidal
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jay Nugent   jjn at nuge.com    (734)484-5105    (734)544-4326/Fax        |
| Nugent Telecommunications  [www.nuge.com]     (734)649-0851/Cell       |
|   Internet Consulting/Linux SysAdmin/Engineering & Design/ISP Reseller |
| ISP Monitoring [www.ispmonitor.net] ISP & Modem Performance Monitoring |
| Web-Pegasus    [www.webpegasus.com] Web Hosting/DNS Hosting/Shell Accts|
| LinuxNIC, Inc. [www.linuxnic.net]   Registrar of the .linux TLD        |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  2:01pm  up 130 days, 10:28,  2 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00



From micorral at comcast.net  Thu Jul 19 14:22:45 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:22:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707190757q272949c6va94617e5cd38037e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707191421200.2186@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-19, Monsieur Jeff Hanson a ecrit:
> But there was more, according to a claim made in court documents:
> plans for a "secret and convenient lair" with hidden entries for
> Nicholas to indulge his "manic obsession with prostitutes" and
> "addiction to cocaine and Ecstasy."

Woohoo, party at Nick's place!

Michael


From wolfger at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 15:35:48 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:35:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] OT: Windows/Firefox/MySpace/Flash
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707191235n26317ear2d2e5ba9854baabd@mail.gmail.com>

A friend of mine has a problem with her Firefox after yesterday's
update (WindowsXP version). The flash elements on her MySpace page no
longer function. I checked it out, and see no reason why... The page
worked fine before the Firefox upgrade was installed, it still works
fine on IE, or on Firefox on my Mepis box (which does not
auto-upgrade), and the upgraded Firefox still plays Flash on other
site (pandora.com). Flashblock is installed, if that makes a
difference (shouldn't). Anybody have any ideas?

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From gib at juno.com  Thu Jul 19 15:51:29 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:51:29 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] Brian's Computer - SATA hardrive - GRUB
Message-ID: <20070719.155129.1103.2@webmail12.lax.untd.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070719/f9841495/attachment-0001.ksh>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070719/f9841495/attachment-0001.html>

From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Thu Jul 19 16:39:41 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:39:41 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Brian's Computer - SATA hardrive - GRUB
In-Reply-To: <20070719.155129.1103.2@webmail12.lax.untd.com>
References: <20070719.155129.1103.2@webmail12.lax.untd.com>
Message-ID: <469FCC0D.8060900@starline-ent.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
> We were working on installing Linux on Brian's new computer Saturday.  Linux installed with no problem. We had a problem where the Windows install kept asking for a floppy to obtain drivers for the SATA harddrive.  
> He discovered a BIOS setting (for RAID), that when disabled, allowed the Windows install to see the harddrive. So, he is happy.
> Next step is to remove the small harddrive that Windows is loaded on. Then he can load Windows on the big harddrive (big one will need to be set to master).  
> Question: how would he load GRUB after the windows install so he wouldn't need to reinstall Linux?

Boot up your LiveCD and run grub-install
See link for more info before doing this


http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#Installing-GRUB-using-grub_002dinstall

BD


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 22:58:42 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:58:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] t-bird system font size?
In-Reply-To: <906793.87318.qm@web81801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <906793.87318.qm@web81801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707191958w30376312ra754545e930fdd3d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, Dean Durant wrote:

> I just got a new system and when I first boot, it defaults to 1900 x 1200.
>  I've managed to get all my other non-thunderbird fonts to be an
> acceptable size.  But the menus in thunderbird are still super tiny.
> And so are the emails.  I can barely read them.  I can't find any way to
> adjust this.  I've checked the help and looked on the web.  Does anyone
> know how to do this?  (I'm doing this from webmail, which is fine).

A quick Google search using the search-string "global font size
thunderbird" (without the quotes) found this useful article:
<http://kb.mozillazine.org/Pane_and_menu_fonts>

-- Mikey


From set at pobox.com  Fri Jul 20 00:19:29 2007
From: set at pobox.com (Paul)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:19:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>

	Hi;

	This is an interesting piece on what a computer means to
a professional writer-- in 1982. Its not a 'in my day' nostalgia
thing, but rather an article written in 1982 with some amusing
and ironic historical perspective, and most of all a refreshing
enthusiasm for computing for the ordinary man.
	Constrast this to what often sounds like a rather whiney
sense of entitlement and complaining that seems to surround a
lot of the technology we have today, especially amazing software
available for free....

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer

Paul
set at pobox.com


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Jul 20 00:50:35 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:50:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-20, Monsieur Paul a ecrit:
> 	This is an interesting piece on what a computer means to
> a professional writer-- in 1982. Its not a 'in my day' nostalgia
> thing, but rather an article written in 1982 with some amusing
> and ironic historical perspective, and most of all a refreshing
> enthusiasm for computing for the ordinary man.

Well, I don't know if I'd say that a writer for Atlantic Monthly is
representative of "the ordinary man"; he's more like a "nongeek".
But I get your point. ;)

> 	Constrast this to what often sounds like a rather whiney
> sense of entitlement and complaining that seems to surround a
> lot of the technology we have today, especially amazing software
> available for free....

Yeah, I've just about had it with all the whining and whingeing I see
on Linux distro forums, almost always from people who expect others to
drop what they're doing and volunteer to help fix their "PLZ HELP ME
URGENT LOL" problem. It's getting bad. Here we have a *free* OS, with a
*free* office suite and other great, powerful software for *free*, and
some people (who contribute nothing towards Linux) whine about it.

> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer

Interesting article. I still can't get over the fact that there was
actually once a computer company called Wang. :)

Michael


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Jul 20 01:36:51 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (eaglecoach at wwnet.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 01:36:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [NEWBIE] usb serial port/LG VX6100/BitPim
Message-ID: <20070720053651.2E70D20AB02@starfox.local>

cellphone users,

I'm trying to access my cellphone (LG VX6100) data.

As Tony advised earlier, I'm unsuccessfully trying to use bitpim,
but would appreciate any help understanding what is failing and what
I can do to correct it.

My current best approach is
1. Discover vendor and product numbers for usb serial data cable.
   A. Insert data cable
   B. Read /proc/bus/usb/devices
      ...
      T:  Bus=01 Lev=01 Prnt=01 Port=00 Cnt=01 Dev#=  5 Spd=1.5 MxCh= 0
      D:  Ver= 1.00 Cls=ff(vend.) Sub=ff Prot=00 MxPS= 8 #Cfgs=  1
      P:  Vendor=0df7 ProdID=0800 Rev= 0.00
      S:  Manufacturer=MobileAction Technology Inc.
      S:  Product=USB Data Cable
      C:* #Ifs= 1 Cfg#= 1 Atr=80 MxPwr=100mA
      I:  If#= 0 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=ff(vend.) Sub=ff Prot=ff Driver=(none)
      E:  Ad=81(I) Atr=03(Int.) MxPS=   8 Ivl=10ms
      E:  Ad=02(O) Atr=03(Int.) MxPS=   8 Ivl=10ms
      ---- /proc/bus/usb/devices ----
2. Disconnect data dable
3. Load kernel module using above product and vendor numbers
   A. bash> /sbin/modprobe usbserial vendor=0x0df7 product=0800
   B. Confirm insertion
      bash> ls -ltr /dev
            ...
            crw-rw----  1 root   root  189,   4 2007-07-19 13:29 usbdev1.5
            ...
4. Start bitpim-1.0.0
   bash> bitpim
   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   !!!! The following error appears on the command line and in a dialog !!!!
   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   setting windows/ConfigDialog to position 231, 163
   database integrity check
   database integrity check complete
   setting windows/CalendarEntryEditor to size 532 x 399
   Exception in getting image file - you can't do that!
   Traceback (most recent call last):
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 578, in OpenFile
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 608, in _OpenFile
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 625, in OpenBPImageFile
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 651, in BPFSImageFile
     File "src/wallpaper.py", line 479, in ScaleImageIntoBitmap
     File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx/_gdi.py", lin
e 715, in EmptyBitmap
   PyAssertionError: C++ assertion "depth == visual->depth" failed at ../src/gtk
/bitmap.cpp(292) in Create(): invalid bitmap depth

   Variables by last 8 frames, innermost last

   Frame OpenFile in src/wallpaper.py at line 582
               res =  None
              self =  <wallpaper.BPFSHandler; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxP
yFileSystemHandler *'
          location =  u'bpimage:ringer.png;width=24;height=24'
        filesystem =  <wx._core.FileSystem; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxFil
eSystem *' at 0x8a0dcb

   Frame _OpenFile in src/wallpaper.py at line 608
             proto =  u'bpimage'
              self =  <wallpaper.BPFSHandler; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxP
yFileSystemHandler *'
             param =  u'height=24'
                 p =  Keys ['height', 'width']
                      {'width': 24, 'height': 24}
                 r =  u'ringer.png'
            params =  [u'width=24', u'height=24']
             value =  u'24'
               key =  'height'
        filesystem =  <wx._core.FileSystem; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxFil
eSystem *' at 0x8a0dcb
                 x =  6
          location =  u'bpimage:ringer.png;width=24;height=24'

   Frame OpenBPImageFile in src/wallpaper.py at line 625
              name =  u'ringer.png'
                 f =  u'/usr/lib/BitPim-1.0.0/resources/ringer.png'
               res =  None
              self =  <wallpaper.BPFSHandler; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxP
yFileSystemHandler *'
                si =  (33060, 1844228L, 770L, 0, 0, 831L, 1181617242, 1184651496
)
          location =  u'bpimage:ringer.png;width=24;height=24'
            kwargs =  Keys ['height', 'width']
                      {'width': 24, 'height': 24}

   Frame BPFSImageFile in src/wallpaper.py at line 651
              name =  u'/usr/lib/BitPim-1.0.0/resources/ringer.png'
               img =  <wx._core.Image; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxImage *'
 at 0x8aec6b0> >
             width =  24
            height =  24
           bgcolor =  None
          location =  u'bpimage:ringer.png;width=24;height=24'
            valign =  'center'
         fshandler =  <wallpaper.BPFSHandler; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxP
yFileSystemHandler *'

   Frame ScaleImageIntoBitmap in src/wallpaper.py at line 479
           bgcolor =  None
          usewidth =  24
         useheight =  24
               img =  <wx._core.Image; proxy of <Swig Object of type 'wxImage *'
 at 0x8aec6b0> >
            valign =  'center'

   Frame EmptyBitmap in /usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx/
_gdi.py at line 715
              args =  (24, 24, 24)
            kwargs =  Keys []
                      {}


5. I've tried each of the following on alternate attempts
   A. Typing the "help" or "Abort BitPim" buttons in the debug dialog HANGS.
   B. Typing the "Continue" button causes the BitPim main dialog to appear.

6. I've started the "Tour", but get no farther following the instructions than
   "What do I do first?".

7. When I type the "Find Phone" button, it takes several seconds and reports
   "No phone detected/recognized.  Run settings?"

8. I have tried setting the Phone Type manually to LG-VX6100 .

9. When I type the "Browse" button it takes several seconds and reports
   "You do not have any com/serial ports on your system."

TIA,
--
Dr. B


-- 
"My private keys are mine alone,
 My public keys to many shown.
 My secret keys with some are shared,
 But with only one message paird."
	-- Dr. Robert Meier 2000, excerpt from Open-PGP Polka


From ebradley01 at wowway.com  Fri Jul 20 09:52:13 2007
From: ebradley01 at wowway.com (ebradley01 at wowway.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:52:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Broadcom CEO
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1184910486.4645.mdlug@mdlug.org>
References: <mailman.9.1184910486.4645.mdlug@mdlug.org>
Message-ID: <20070720134349.M18819@wowway.com>

Heck, I was under the assumption that having a room like this was in the
packaged deal that came along with being an uber-millionaire.  Hell, I'd
specify it in my contract before accepting the C_O position.  :D


evan 

--
"The road of life is rocky, and you may stumble too.  So while you point your
finger; someone else is judging you."  --Bob Marley


From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jul 20 14:27:44 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 11:27:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] toyota contract - Ann Arbor
Message-ID: <334072.27149.qm@web81807.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Has anyone else been called about this?   I was.   A contract house (Ajilon) submitted my resume, and Toyota seemed interested.   So then I was asked to fill out this laundry list of years of experience on all these different things.    I had too many "zeroes" so I told Ajilon to forget it.    I keep getting called about it from other job shops though so I don't think they've filled it.    I still have all the info so if you want to know more, email me off list.     It was Unix, Linux, CAE support.   
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070720/50d5dfa0/attachment-0001.html>

From gib at juno.com  Fri Jul 20 15:52:12 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:52:12 GMT
Subject: [mdlug] toyota contract - Ann Arbor
Message-ID: <20070720.155212.24030.1@webmail21.lax.untd.com>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070720/75e83157/attachment-0001.ksh>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070720/75e83157/attachment-0001.html>

From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Jul 20 16:09:08 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:09:08 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [NEWBIE] usb serial port/LG VX6100/BitPim
In-Reply-To: <20070720053651.2E70D20AB02@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E63@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com

>    B. Read /proc/bus/usb/devices

>       P:  Vendor=0df7 ProdID=0800 Rev= 0.00
>       S:  Manufacturer=MobileAction Technology Inc.
>       S:  Product=USB Data Cable

 Seems odd that a Motorola phone would show up with this vendor and product ID.
Perhaps the data cable is an active rather than passive link, and it's not fully
compatible?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 "...seek out the insects. There, you will see a state of warfare
 which has existed for millions of years with never a truce. Man,
  despite enormous shortcomings, is nevertheless possessed of a
  greater number of kindly impulses than all the other beings..."
                      - Roger Zelazny
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 20 17:56:36 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:56:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:50:35 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-20, Monsieur Paul a ecrit:
> > 	This is an interesting piece on what a computer means to
> > a professional writer-- in 1982. Its not a 'in my day' nostalgia
> > thing, but rather an article written in 1982 with some amusing
> > and ironic historical perspective, and most of all a refreshing
> > enthusiasm for computing for the ordinary man.

/snip

> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer  

Great article, I was grinning all the way through.  Thanks for
sharing.  I was especially struck by how *expensive* those systems were
back then.  And think about it -- a Linux distro running off a
single floppy disk, no X-Windows, armed with nothing  beyond the GNU
utils and console-mode Emacs could do more, and more easily, than the
multi-thousand-dollars word-processing systems of that day.

Regards,
Matthew


From micorral at comcast.net  Fri Jul 20 19:53:26 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:53:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-20, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
>> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer
>
> And think about it -- a Linux distro running off a
> single floppy disk, no X-Windows, armed with nothing  beyond the GNU
> utils and console-mode Emacs could do more, and more easily, than the
> multi-thousand-dollars word-processing systems of that day.

Hmm, I doubt you'd be able to put all the GNU utils + Linux kernel on a
single floppy (let alone Emacs :)). But I agree with the gist of what
you're saying, that a very minimal Linux system could do (for *free*)
even more than those old expensive "word processing" apps could do.

In fact, a barebones Linux system, without X, but with Emacs, the GNU
utils, groff and ghostscript, even today puts a modern "word processor"
like MS Word to shame. The postscript output produced by groff is far
superior to the ugly, cheap-looking stuff Word produces. Throw in LaTeX,
and you'd have even more options for producing documents with a high-
quality appearance.

It's a shame that knowing how to use groff and/or LaTeX seems to be a
lost art, and an unknown one to many people new to Linux. I think most
Linux newbs would be lost on such a minimal Linux system. Without X (and
OpenOffice) they'd probably have a hard time figuring out how to "word
process". :(

Michael


From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 00:10:36 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:10:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070721001036.8ae8a49d.akalten@comcast.net>

Yes,

The whole idea behind the modern WYSIWYG interface is to obviate the
need for any understanding of digital concepts.  A person without
training or education in computer principles should be able to sit
down and immediately compose worthwhile documents on a word processor
by relying on only the basic typewriter analogy.  This is what some
would call the "empowerment" of the ordinary person through the seeming
magic of advanced interfaces. 

But such a lack of understanding easily causes problems outside
of the carefully controlled areas.  Most computer users do not even
understand the concept of a carriage return character.  When these
people compose email, for example, they rely on the default word
wrapping feature to format their messages.  The recipient, however,
often will see a ridiculously long and unformatted string of text
that is devoid of carriage returns.  When dealing with pure text,
the invisible  carriage return (or line feed in the case of UNIX)
is absolutely essential, but it remains totally beyond the grasp
of the uninitiated. 

The effects of a lack of basic computer knowledge show up everywhere.
I received an email recently which included a one-page MS Word file.
The size of the attachment was nearly ONE MEGABYTE.  The sender
apparently was not aware of the fact that MS Word will embed font
information if non-standard fonts are utilized, and this document
contained a strange font.  It is simply not proper behavior to flood
someones mailbox with a very large file, but this sender had no
knowledge of his error.

Word processing began as simple text mark up, and so it remains. Groff
and LaTex still retain the full character of a mark-up language but
the WYSIWYG word processor conceals this aspect behind the graphical
interface.  The mark-up code can still be demonstrated, however, in
both Corel WordPerfect and MS Word by setting certain internal options. 

(HTML, of course, is just another mark-up language.)

Text mark-up, also sometimes referred to as post-formatting, requires
the ability to mentally picture what the final document will look like
before it is actually produced.  Usually, this prediction is fairly
straightforward to make, but in a lot of cases surprises can ensue. The
projected image will fail to correspond exactly with the actual final
result.  The discrepancy may not always be terribly significant but it
some cases it can be disastrous.  This is one strong argument, I
believe, in favor of the WYSIWYG interface.  Although I can appreciate
the simplicity and purity of groff or LaTex, there are a lot of times
when I greatly prefer the WYSIWYG software.  



From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 21 00:45:57 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:45:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:53:26 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-20, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> >> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/198207/fallows-computer
> >
> > And think about it -- a Linux distro running off a
> > single floppy disk, no X-Windows, armed with nothing  beyond the GNU
> > utils and console-mode Emacs could do more, and more easily, than
> > the multi-thousand-dollars word-processing systems of that day.
> 
> Hmm, I doubt you'd be able to put all the GNU utils + Linux kernel on
> a single floppy (let alone Emacs :)). But I agree with the gist of
> what you're saying, that a very minimal Linux system could do (for
> *free*) even more than those old expensive "word processing" apps
> could do.

Ohhh yeah, you're probably right about the size.  I was forgetting
those old boot-and-root floppy pairs...  but I'll bet it could work on
two. May be desirable to substitute a smaller-footprint Emacs-like
editor.

> In fact, a barebones Linux system, without X, but with Emacs, the GNU
> utils, groff and ghostscript, even today puts a modern "word
> processor" like MS Word to shame. The postscript output produced by
> groff is far superior to the ugly, cheap-looking stuff Word produces.
> Throw in LaTeX, and you'd have even more options for producing
> documents with a high- quality appearance.
> 
> It's a shame that knowing how to use groff and/or LaTeX seems to be a
> lost art, and an unknown one to many people new to Linux. I think most
> Linux newbs would be lost on such a minimal Linux system. Without X
> (and OpenOffice) they'd probably have a hard time figuring out how to
> "word process". :(

I'm not sure I agree here.  I don't know how to use groff and/or LaTeX
and I am not new to Linux at all - it's just never been something I
needed - but I tend to think that typesetting (and indeed any visual
design task) is one area where GUI and WYSIWYG (or WYSIWYM a la Lyx -
say that three times fast with marbles in your mouth) have become too
valuable.  Mind, I'm not saying that office software is exactly in a
good state... I think it's a mess, including open-source programs like
OOo, but a mess that is easier to use then the well-designed but
GUI-less tools you mention.

A program that doesn't get the attention it deserves is LyX.  But the
practical reality is that most people have neither the time nor the
inclination to learn more then one such system, and nothing that cannot
interchange documents with Word can be that one - sadly.

Further thoughts?

Matthew


From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 01:01:20 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:01:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <20070721010120.8a50ce0a.akalten@comcast.net>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:45:57 -0400
"M. D. Krauss" <zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> I'm not sure I agree here.  I don't know how to use groff and/or LaTeX
> and I am not new to Linux at all - it's just never been something I
> needed - but I tend to think that typesetting (and indeed any visual
> design task) is one area where GUI and WYSIWYG (or WYSIWYM a la Lyx -
> say that three times fast with marbles in your mouth) have become too
> valuable.  Mind, I'm not saying that office software is exactly in a
> good state... I think it's a mess, including open-source programs like
> OOo, but a mess that is easier to use then the well-designed but
> GUI-less tools you mention.
> 

Everybody mentions either groff/LaTex or OpenOffice.  But a very
convenient and quick method for producing documents based on simple
text files is enscript, or its cousin a2ps.  With these programs
there is no complicated mark up to learn.  Just produce the text
file and run it through enscript/a2ps.  With a little practice very
suitable letters or other simple documents are a snap.



From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 03:45:49 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 03:45:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-21, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> Hmm, I doubt you'd be able to put all the GNU utils + Linux kernel on
>> a single floppy (let alone Emacs :)).
>
> Ohhh yeah, you're probably right about the size.  I was forgetting
> those old boot-and-root floppy pairs...  but I'll bet it could work on
> two. May be desirable to substitute a smaller-footprint Emacs-like
> editor.

I like the joe editor for that. Just a single small binary.

> I'm not sure I agree here.  I don't know how to use groff and/or LaTeX
> and I am not new to Linux at all - it's just never been something I
> needed - but I tend to think that typesetting (and indeed any visual
> design task) is one area where GUI and WYSIWYG (or WYSIWYM a la Lyx -
> say that three times fast with marbles in your mouth) have become too
> valuable.

I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using the
WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and they often
don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the worst at that, it
always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what I want to do, despite
me telling it to do something else. I now only use things like Word when
I have to put something in that format. I use groff for most documents,
and LaTeX for a few things groff can't do, all put into PDF format.

I totally disagree that the WYSIWYG apps are better or even easier.
Getting correct formatting can be a nightmare in those programs.
Things like groff and LaTeX handle all that for you, I think they
are definitely worth learning. For example, save the following text
between the dashed lines in a file called letter.tex, then run
this command: pdflatex letter.tex
This will produce a letter.pdf file, open it and see how everything
is formatted for you.

---------------cut here ----------------------------
\documentclass{letter}
\usepackage[letterpaper]{hyperref}
\begin{document}
\begin{letter}{Mr. Joe Smith\\1234 Main St.\\Anytown, MI 48123}
\address{Bob Linux\\666 Torvalds Rd \#69\\Mytown, MI 48456}
\signature{Bob Linux}
\opening{Dear Joe,}
This is my very first time using \LaTeX. I definitely like it. I will be
using it much more in the future. In fact, I plan to redo my r\'esum\`e
in it.

I hope you like the way this looks!
\closing{Sincerely,}
\end{letter}
\end{document}
---------------cut here--------------------------------

I honestly don't think that is too hard.

For anyone interested in learning LaTeX, a good intoduction is here:
http://tug.ctan.org/info/lshort/english/lshort.pdf

For learning groff/troff, O'Reilly has a free book available:
http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/utp/UnixTextProcessing.pdf

> A program that doesn't get the attention it deserves is LyX.

I tried using LyX, but the interface was confusing to me, so I stayed
with editing LaTeX in plain old Emacs, which has a good LaTeX mode.

> But the
> practical reality is that most people have neither the time nor the
> inclination to learn more then one such system, and nothing that cannot
> interchange documents with Word can be that one - sadly.

I think that's changing. PDF is becoming more widely used, and the new
ODF may become popular. I don't think the Word .doc format has as big
a stranglehold as it used to, and I see its grip weakening even more.

Michael


From set at pobox.com  Sat Jul 21 05:08:18 2007
From: set at pobox.com (Paul)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 05:08:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <20070721090818.GB5909@squish.home.loc>

"M. D. Krauss" <zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com>, on Sat Jul 21, 2007 [12:45:57 AM] said:
> A program that doesn't get the attention it deserves is LyX.  But the
> practical reality is that most people have neither the time nor the
> inclination to learn more then one such system, and nothing that cannot
> interchange documents with Word can be that one - sadly.
> 
> Further thoughts?
> 

	Hi;

	Yeah; that you have all gone off the message of
the OP;) People who lack time and inclination to learn are not very
interesting. Effectiveness of toolset and religiosity of applications
are far less compelling than the love of tools in general; And the fact
that we are awash in buttloads of amazing and capable tools, for *free*.
	Ive done woodworking with a hacksaw, broken into my own car with
a packing strap I found on the street and seen things done with a hammer
and cold chisel that would make a machinist cry. But in those instances
there wasnt much choice.
	Now we have incredible ammounts of options. What route
creative people take through that embarassment of riches might be
almost as interesting as what they end up with, but arguing about
which is the most efficient path is missing a larger picture.


Paul
set at pobox.com
	
	


From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 11:40:45 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:40:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 03:45:49 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 
> I totally disagree that the WYSIWYG apps are better or even easier.
> Getting correct formatting can be a nightmare in those programs.
> Things like groff and LaTeX handle all that for you, I think they
> are definitely worth learning. For example, save the following text
> between the dashed lines in a file called letter.tex, then run
> this command: pdflatex letter.tex
> This will produce a letter.pdf file, open it and see how everything
> is formatted for you.
> 

Sure.  That's easy.

But what good is an official letter without a bona fide signature?

To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.  But
depending upon the length of your name and the intended size of
the image, you may be greatly surprised -- and continually frustrated
 -- over where LaTex has placed it.  More than likely you will have
to undergo an extensive trial and error period of using \vspace{}
and \hspace{} to position the image exactly where you want it.
You may have to even override the built-in margins to avoid having
your signature unintentionally placed all by itself on the next
page (a fact that won't be revealed until you make the final
print).

I will agree that once everything is finally honed to perfection
then the same structure can be used repeatedly, but you can never
completely drop your guard.

Also, if you want to use a different letter format, then, unless
you can find a suitable template at ctan.org, you are stuck.
Composing your own TeX template is no labor of love (at least it
wouldn't be for me).

A WYSIWYG tool can leave all that trouble in the dust.



From akalten at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 12:13:30 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:13:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721090818.GB5909@squish.home.loc>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<20070721090818.GB5909@squish.home.loc>
Message-ID: <20070721121330.78924cc9.akalten@comcast.net>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 05:08:18 -0400
Paul <set at pobox.com> wrote:

>
> Effectiveness of toolset and religiosity of applications
> are far less compelling than the love of tools in general;
>

Some would say that the definition of humanness is toolmaking.

The greatest period of inventiveness (i.e. toolmaking) in
human history just happened to occur in the United States
of America between roughly 1850 and 1950.  During that period,
everything that we associate with modern civilization was pulled
from the magic hat of American creativity (I am not being
chauvinistic; I am only stating the facts.).

But, as the dates indicate, that period is over.  No longer,
it seems, is the social consciousness so unconcernedly receptive
to new and vigorous ideas.  Those who make an attempt at change
will more than likely be met with disbelief and even contempt.
The failure of Linux and Open Source, which are beyond doubt quite
innovative concepts, to capture the spirit of most people may be
the best indication of this growing cultural complacency.

Contemporary people are afraid of change.  Even in such mundane
activities as shopping they will avoid the fresh new entrepreneur
and seek only the well established venues.  Woe unto the foolish
investor who decides to back the creative maverick.  The smart
money flows only to the well worn ranks of the status quo.



From mdlug at sbcglobal.net  Sat Jul 21 12:20:10 2007
From: mdlug at sbcglobal.net (Dean Durant)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:20:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [Fwd: CAE/UNIX Administrator Opportunity]
Message-ID: <46A2323A.905@sbcglobal.net>

I don't have the laundry list of requirements handy at the moment, sorry.  
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Matt LePage <mlepage at gta.jobs>
Subject: CAE/UNIX Administrator Opportunity
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:15:48 -0400
Size: 4377
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070721/51a654ee/attachment-0001.mht>

From micorral at comcast.net  Sat Jul 21 16:15:49 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> Things like groff and LaTeX handle all that for you, I think they
>> are definitely worth learning. For example, save the following text
>> between the dashed lines in a file called letter.tex, then run
>> this command: pdflatex letter.tex
>> This will produce a letter.pdf file, open it and see how everything
>> is formatted for you.
>
> Sure.  That's easy.
>
> But what good is an official letter without a bona fide signature?

Well, I have this crazy practice of putting my signature on letters
by printing the letter out and then, using this thing called a "pen",
writing my signature by hand on the letter. ;)

> To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.

Huh? First of all, an electronic "John Hancock" is *not* a "bona fide
signature". Where did you ever get that notion? Whether it's done by
using a cursive font or by scanning a handwritten signature into an
image file, that electronic version is not your legal signature. In
fact, putting such a thing in an electronically submitted document
file just makes you look silly, because there's no need for it. I've
never seen it required anywhere. Seriously, doing that is the kind of
thing that clueless lusers do because they think it's "kewl". I am
shocked and dismayed that a user who considers himself experienced and
knowledgeable would even think of doing such a silly thing.

Secondly, it's not even true that if you did include such an image file
that it would have to be in eps format. With pdflatex, you can include
png, jpg and gif image files. They don't even get converted to eps,
since PDF does not support eps natively.

As far as different letter formats in LaTeX, it's fairly easy to either
modify the default settings or use alternate templates. The defaults
have always been fine for me and the people I've sent letters to.

Michael


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Sat Jul 21 20:43:00 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R Kannan)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:43:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
Message-ID: <1185064979.23268.13.camel@hppavilion.kannanhome>

All,

I upgraded from firefox 1.5.? to firefox.2.0.0.5 and installed the
Macromedia Flashplayer 9.0 plugin. I had flashblock installed with the
old version but when I try to install it from 

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/433

it gave me an error saying..

installLocation has no properties
Error: installLocation has no properties
file:///usr/lib/firefox/components/nsExtensionManager.js
Line: 3940

Anyone knows how to get around this? I did not have a problem installing
the same plugin with the old version.

TIA for any help.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070721/1ade8ddb/attachment-0001.html>

From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 22 01:59:21 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 01:59:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>
	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>
	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com> <469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>
	<a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707212259u37e7eb69h9f698e0f1f970474@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/18/07, G Balaji <gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/18/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:

>> Amiga (yea that again) uses file headers in that fashion from the very
>> start.  Learning to add file extensions was something I had to do once I
>> started using DOS based systems.

> I am not familiar with Amiga. In Amiga, how were files associated with
> applications? Was the operating system aware of the
> file-header-application association?

There was NO direct association between files and applications in
AmigaOS through at least v2.x-- the data-file icons had a field that
held the application-name associated with that file.  This meant that
to change the default application for a file-type the user had to
track down each file of that type and edit the icon's field to reflect
the new app.  I got around this by using the very-powerful "assign"
command.  The icon's field would contain something like "jpg:" for a
JPG file, and the startup-sequence would contain the command (for
example) "assign jpeg-view jpg:" where "jpeg-view" was the (example)
program used for viewing such files. If I wanted to change the default
viewer, I edited the startup-sequence.  This may have changed for
later versions.

-- Mikey


From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Jul 22 02:13:38 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 02:13:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] The new "surface" computer
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707212259u37e7eb69h9f698e0f1f970474@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E4B@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<469E2D7D.70207@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181024m1a197f4lf0c7547cab3269a5@mail.gmail.com>	<469E560E.2060904@impelind.com>	<a42f3f3d0707181131k698cf67du77cc5e2cf1736814@mail.gmail.com>	<469E73AD.2010102@impelind.com>
	<469E7555.8050700@comcast.net>	<a42f3f3d0707181332v1f9c0e21lc99cdaf37d426cdc@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380707212259u37e7eb69h9f698e0f1f970474@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A2F592.3040300@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> On 7/18/07, G Balaji <gopinathan.balaji at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> On 7/18/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>>     
>
>   
>>> Amiga (yea that again) uses file headers in that fashion from the very
>>> start.  Learning to add file extensions was something I had to do once I
>>> started using DOS based systems.
>>>       
>
>   
>> I am not familiar with Amiga. In Amiga, how were files associated with
>> applications? Was the operating system aware of the
>> file-header-application association?
>>     
>
> There was NO direct association between files and applications in
> AmigaOS through at least v2.x-- the data-file icons had a field that
> held the application-name associated with that file.  This meant that
> to change the default application for a file-type the user had to
> track down each file of that type and edit the icon's field to reflect
> the new app.  I got around this by using the very-powerful "assign"
> command.  The icon's field would contain something like "jpg:" for a
> JPG file, and the startup-sequence would contain the command (for
> example) "assign jpeg-view jpg:" where "jpeg-view" was the (example)
> program used for viewing such files. If I wanted to change the default
> viewer, I edited the startup-sequence.  This may have changed for
> later versions.
>   

I didn't use icons for most files.  In fact saved them as "no icon".  I
would strip file names in mass and dump them all in one directory. 
Applications such as DOpus, Multiview, and ImageFX had no problem
telling them apart and opening them correctly.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 22 03:38:51 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 03:38:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:

> > To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> > an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> > that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.
> 
> Huh? First of all, an electronic "John Hancock" is *not* a "bona fide
> signature". Where did you ever get that notion? Whether it's done by
> using a cursive font or by scanning a handwritten signature into an
> image file, that electronic version is not your legal signature. In
> fact, putting such a thing in an electronically submitted document
> file just makes you look silly, because there's no need for it. I've
> never seen it required anywhere. Seriously, doing that is the kind of
> thing that clueless lusers do because they think it's "kewl". I am
> shocked and dismayed that a user who considers himself experienced and
> knowledgeable would even think of doing such a silly thing.

I think this is a fairly easily generalizable example.  The point
Kalten was making (left unquoted) was that it is hard to position an
image where you want it, not that it is hard to include an image of
a signature.  I don't know if that point is true - you
didn't address it - but it is valid.

Nonetheless, I happen to know that Kmart and Meijer both accept certain
documents from manufacturers and distributors through email with just
this kind of digital "signature". It may be asinine, but it is true.

Matthew


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 22 03:56:00 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 03:56:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 03:45:49 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-21, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:

/snip

> > I'm not sure I agree here.  I don't know how to use groff and/or
> > LaTeX and I am not new to Linux at all - it's just never been
> > something I needed - but I tend to think that typesetting (and
> > indeed any visual design task) is one area where GUI and WYSIWYG
> > (or WYSIWYM a la Lyx - say that three times fast with marbles in
> > your mouth) have become too valuable.
> 
> I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using
> the WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and
> they often don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the worst
> at that, it always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what I want
> to do, despite me telling it to do something else. I now only use
> things like Word when I have to put something in that format. I use
> groff for most documents, and LaTeX for a few things groff can't do,
> all put into PDF format.

Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that
make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.  OOo
Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the end of the
day, though, I've never seen an office suite that actually impresses me.



> 
> I totally disagree that the WYSIWYG apps are better or even easier.
> Getting correct formatting can be a nightmare in those programs.
> Things like groff and LaTeX handle all that for you, I think they
> are definitely worth learning. For example, save the following text
> between the dashed lines in a file called letter.tex, then run
> this command: pdflatex letter.tex

/snipped example

> I honestly don't think that is too hard.

No it is not.  If that is the document you wanted.

I will certainly not argue that LaTeX isn't better for some purposes.
However, out there in the real world, some people have to deal with
ever-changing format requirements, bosses and co-workers looking over
their shoulders and nit-picking details in real-time, and producing
documents that are more like a flier or spec-sheet than a standardized
letter, article, or book, and my impression is that this is where LaTeX
and relatives fall short.

I guess it depends on if you are looking at your task as creating
textual content, and would like the formatting to be handled
for you in a nice way; or looking at it as creating visual content, and
would like to have more control over the composition.  For most people,
I suppose, it is a little of each.

/snipped links to educational resources

> > A program that doesn't get the attention it deserves is LyX.
> 
> I tried using LyX, but the interface was confusing to me, so I stayed
> with editing LaTeX in plain old Emacs, which has a good LaTeX mode.

From what I've seen of it, LyX has a very cool interface.  Takes some
getting used to, though. 

> 
> > But the
> > practical reality is that most people have neither the time nor the
> > inclination to learn more then one such system, and nothing that
> > cannot interchange documents with Word can be that one - sadly.
> 
> I think that's changing. PDF is becoming more widely used, and the new
> ODF may become popular. I don't think the Word .doc format has as big
> a stranglehold as it used to, and I see its grip weakening even more.

PDF is irrelevant - you can't pass documents around and edit them with
PDF effectively.  ODF is showing signs of breaking the .doc
stranglehold, and I hope it does - but so what? A program still has to
be able to interchange documents well with Word, even if Word has been
forced to support ODF.  It is a fundamentally different document
model, no?

Regards,
Matthew


From danno at umich.edu  Sun Jul 22 12:11:44 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:11:44 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>

as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.

proving someone actually "signed" something electronically is another
story.


On Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 03:38:51AM -0400, M. D. Krauss wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
> Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> 
> > > To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> > > an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> > > that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.
> > 
> > Huh? First of all, an electronic "John Hancock" is *not* a "bona fide
> > signature". Where did you ever get that notion? Whether it's done by
> > using a cursive font or by scanning a handwritten signature into an
> > image file, that electronic version is not your legal signature. In
> > fact, putting such a thing in an electronically submitted document
> > file just makes you look silly, because there's no need for it. I've
> > never seen it required anywhere. Seriously, doing that is the kind of
> > thing that clueless lusers do because they think it's "kewl". I am
> > shocked and dismayed that a user who considers himself experienced and
> > knowledgeable would even think of doing such a silly thing.
> 
> I think this is a fairly easily generalizable example.  The point
> Kalten was making (left unquoted) was that it is hard to position an
> image where you want it, not that it is hard to include an image of
> a signature.  I don't know if that point is true - you
> didn't address it - but it is valid.
> 
> Nonetheless, I happen to know that Kmart and Meijer both accept certain
> documents from manufacturers and distributors through email with just
> this kind of digital "signature". It may be asinine, but it is true.
> 
> Matthew
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 22 19:19:10 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 19:19:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] "Digital" signatures
In-Reply-To: <20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20070722190038.02925b40@pop.gmail.com>

At 12:11 PM 7/22/07, Dan Pritts wrote:
>as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
>signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.

     I hope that it would mean a PGP signature, which is designed to 
as much as possible
eliminate the possibility that someone other than the key owner 
signed it instead.

     I have to agree with Michael Corral here. The purpose of a 
"signature" as I understand it
is to authenticate the document as being written by, or at least 
authorized by, the person
signing the document. At least in theory, handwriting is supposed to 
be an identifying
characteristic of a person, so that a different individual "signing" 
a given name to a document
should be detectable.

     The trouble with a Jpeg of a signature is that anyone in 
possession of a document with
the target signature, or even a copy, can create such a thing for the 
target signature
himself. Thus it is impossible to prove whether or not someone 
"signed" a document by
the presence of such an image. If the Congress actually passed a law 
allowing a *photograph
of a signature* to count as valid, they really *are* idiots not 
worthy of our obedience or trust.


> > > 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> >
> > > > To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> > > > an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> > > > that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.

     Personally I prefer to think that Monsieur Kalten was joking.

----

- Drew.



From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Jul 22 21:40:53 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:40:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222114420.2878@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
>>> To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
>>> an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
>>> that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.
>>
> I think this is a fairly easily generalizable example.  The point
> Kalten was making (left unquoted) was that it is hard to position an
> image where you want it, not that it is hard to include an image of
> a signature.  I don't know if that point is true

No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg

It took me about 1 minute to figure out how to put that signature
image in the letter example I gave the other day (I made the signature
itself in the Gimp - you can tell I'm no graphic artist. :) ).

> - you didn't address it - but it is valid.

No, not really. ;)

> Nonetheless, I happen to know that Kmart and Meijer both accept certain
> documents from manufacturers and distributors through email with just
> this kind of digital "signature". It may be asinine, but it is true.

Well, I'll be sure to create an "M.D. Krauss" electronic signature and
sign you up for lots of mailings from Kmart and Meijer. ;)

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Sun Jul 22 22:34:34 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:34:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222153050.2920@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that
> make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.  OOo
> Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the end of the
> day, though, I've never seen an office suite that actually impresses me.

I've always liked Applixware. I actually bought the Linux version
several years ago. I'd use that if I had to use an office suite.

> /snipped example
>
>> I honestly don't think that is too hard.
>
> No it is not.  If that is the document you wanted.

Well, I left all my examples of documents you don't want on my other PC.:)

> I will certainly not argue that LaTeX isn't better for some purposes.
> However, out there in the real world,

Oh oh...

> some people have to deal with
> ever-changing format requirements, bosses and co-workers looking over
> their shoulders and nit-picking details in real-time, and producing
> documents that are more like a flier or spec-sheet than a standardized
> letter, article, or book, and my impression is that this is where LaTeX
> and relatives fall short.

Hmm, I don't know how you got that impression. In fact, LaTeX is much
better for that sort of thing than office suites.

> I guess it depends on if you are looking at your task as creating
> textual content, and would like the formatting to be handled
> for you in a nice way; or looking at it as creating visual content, and
> would like to have more control over the composition.  For most people,
> I suppose, it is a little of each.

LaTeX excels at both. It's not just for nice text formatting. Its
graphics capabilities are pretty powerful. Right now I'm using LaTeX
to write a book, with lots of graphics, many of them fairly complex
and all created by LaTeX. And importing external graphics is no problem.

> From what I've seen of it, LyX has a very cool interface.  Takes some
> getting used to, though.

LyX is probably the best free GUI frontend to LaTeX I've seen, though
I think there are some commercial ones. I just feel more comfortable
editing LaTeX code myself instead of letting LyX do it.

> PDF is irrelevant - you can't pass documents around and edit them with
> PDF effectively.

Every "real world" place I've worked at had the full Acrobat suite so that
you could edit PDFs (which is the format many places standardized on for
official docs). Actually, "passing documents around and editing them" is
usually frowned upon in large corporations that follow some sort of
Quality Management System (e.g. CMMI). They don't want lots of different
versions of documents edited by different people floating around. You're
supposed to have a Document Owner (or Maintainer) for each document, and
that person does the editing. Other people can email that person or submit
a change request with their proposed changes to the document.

> ODF is showing signs of breaking the .doc
> stranglehold, and I hope it does - but so what? A program still has to
> be able to interchange documents well with Word, even if Word has been
> forced to support ODF.

Why? If ODF breaks the .doc stranglehold, then it'll be the other way
around: Word will have to do a good job of supporting ODF, or Word
will become even more irrelevant.

Michael


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 22 23:30:42 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:30:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222114420.2878@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222114420.2878@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070722233042.113659a5@tessa.long>

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:40:53 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> > Michael Corral wrote:
> >> 2007-07-21, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> >>> To include your "John Hancock" you are going to have to create
> >>> an image file, ultimately in eps format, and then work it in to
> >>> that LaTex template using the \includegraphics{} directive.
> >>
> > I think this is a fairly easily generalizable example.  The point
> > Kalten was making (left unquoted) was that it is hard to position an
> > image where you want it, not that it is hard to include an image of
> > a signature.  I don't know if that point is true
> 
> No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg
> 
> It took me about 1 minute to figure out how to put that signature
> image in the letter example I gave the other day (I made the signature
> itself in the Gimp - you can tell I'm no graphic artist. :) ).

I would like to see how, please.  This is interesting.

Thanks,
Matthew


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 23 03:04:54 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 03:04:54 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222153050.2920@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222153050.2920@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <20070723030454.182455bb@tessa.long>

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:34:34 -0400 (EDT)
Michael Corral <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:

> > some people have to deal with
> > ever-changing format requirements, bosses and co-workers looking
> > over their shoulders and nit-picking details in real-time, and
> > producing documents that are more like a flier or spec-sheet than a
> > standardized letter, article, or book, and my impression is that
> > this is where LaTeX and relatives fall short.
> 
> Hmm, I don't know how you got that impression. In fact, LaTeX is much
> better for that sort of thing than office suites.

Huh.  So if I were working on a spec sheet with LaTeX, and my
hypothetical boss came in and looked over my shoulder and said that
that graphic had to be a smidgen to the left... no not that far... or
maybe put it down below that text... I would have no problem making
those adjustments quickly in real time, so he could see the results?
Going to a text editor, changing numbers around, recompiling, and
loading the results in to a Postscript viewer does not cut it there.

I suspect you mean that LaTeX is better then office suites for the
types of documents I mentioned, not the situations.  In that, you may
be right - I don't know, but I am interested in learning.

> > I guess it depends on if you are looking at your task as creating
> > textual content, and would like the formatting to be handled
> > for you in a nice way; or looking at it as creating visual content,
> > and would like to have more control over the composition.  For most
> > people, I suppose, it is a little of each.
> 
> LaTeX excels at both. It's not just for nice text formatting. Its
> graphics capabilities are pretty powerful. Right now I'm using LaTeX
> to write a book, with lots of graphics, many of them fairly complex
> and all created by LaTeX. And importing external graphics is no
> problem.

Graphics actually created with LaTeX?  That is very interesting. Can
you give me an example of some LaTeX code to draw a picture?

> > From what I've seen of it, LyX has a very cool interface.  Takes
> > some getting used to, though.
> 
> LyX is probably the best free GUI frontend to LaTeX I've seen, though
> I think there are some commercial ones. I just feel more comfortable
> editing LaTeX code myself instead of letting LyX do it.

This I can definitely understand.  I hate WYSIWYG HTML editors.

> > PDF is irrelevant - you can't pass documents around and edit them
> > with PDF effectively.
> 
> Every "real world" place I've worked at had the full Acrobat suite so
> that you could edit PDFs (which is the format many places
> standardized on for official docs). Actually, "passing documents
> around and editing them" is usually frowned upon in large
> corporations that follow some sort of Quality Management System (e.g.
> CMMI). They don't want lots of different versions of documents edited
> by different people floating around. You're supposed to have a
> Document Owner (or Maintainer) for each document, and that person
> does the editing. Other people can email that person or submit a
> change request with their proposed changes to the document.

Sorry, not everyone has the luck to work at the same places as you.
Just about every retail chain operating in Michigan passes all sorts of
documents around, with reps, suppliers, manufacturers, everybody
getting in the game.  Small businesses rarely in my experience can
afford to follow "quality management systems".  Businesses that are
more concerned with getting good results then knowing who to blame when
stuff goes wrong pass documents around and edit them all the time.

Also, I have never had a chance to use the Acrobat suite, but it is my
understanding that even then, you can't really edit PDFs all that well.

> > ODF is showing signs of breaking the .doc
> > stranglehold, and I hope it does - but so what? A program still has
> > to be able to interchange documents well with Word, even if Word
> > has been forced to support ODF.
> 
> Why? If ODF breaks the .doc stranglehold, then it'll be the other way
> around: Word will have to do a good job of supporting ODF, or Word
> will become even more irrelevant.

Your statement is true, but doesn't seem to have anything to do with
the matter.  As long as Word *does* remain relevant, the fact that
people are creating and reading ODFs in Word instead of DOCs in Word
does not allow the average office worker to use software that is not
compatible with DOC or ODF.  Even if Word drops off the face of the
planet to be replaced with OOo, this would still be the case.  No?

Regards,
Matthew


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Jul 23 00:54:03 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 00:54:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] "Digital" signatures
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20070722190038.02925b40@pop.gmail.com>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <20070723045403.1DA7320AB03@starfox.local>

Drew, Dan, Michael

>>as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
>>signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.

> I hope that it would mean a PGP signature, which is designed to 
> as much as possible eliminate the possibility that someone other than the
> key owner signed it instead.

I believe you are referring to FIPS-186, (Federal Information Processing
Standards Publication 186) (http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/fip186.htm) .

FIPS-186 is identified by Open-PGP (RFC 2440) as signature algorithm 17 ,
which I believe is the default signature algorithm of gpg.

Hopefully helpful,
-- 
Dr. B



From akalten at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 12:03:12 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:03:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>


> Huh? First of all, an electronic "John Hancock" is *not* a "bona fide
> signature". Where did you ever get that notion? Whether it's done by
> using a cursive font or by scanning a handwritten signature into an
> image file, that electronic version is not your legal signature. In
> fact, putting such a thing in an electronically submitted document
> file just makes you look silly, because there's no need for it. I've
> never seen it required anywhere.

LaTex is not ordinary used for electronic exhange (although like
anything else it certainly could be).  LaTeX is used to produce
a material piece of printed paper (think of it!) that is then
physically translocated through space and time (think ot it!)
to its final destination.  In this case, a signature file included
in the LaTex source would not be unreasonable.  It would save
the producer the extra task of manually signing his name on the
final product, and such time savings could be significant if LaTex
were being used to create a large batch of letters.

Silly?  Well, that is a matter of subjective taste.  It may not
be required, but in the business world a human signature does add
a professional touch to a letter document and that simple gesture
can often make a great difference.

After all, we are speaking about the world of business.  Protocol
is often paramount and much "silliness" continues to abound.  Let
us consider the neck tie.  What is the point of a neck tie?  It serves
no purpose.  It's function is purely decorative (depth psychology
aside) but its absence can be anathema in many business contexts.
One could argue that a neck tie is "silly" but that argument would
fall upon deaf ears in the business universe.

> No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg

The image is not positioned correctly.  It should be moved
over toward the left.  That's how a human being would do it.

Also, the signature is much too jagged.  That must be the result
of resizing.  You should always use potrace (potrace.sourceforge.net)
to make it smooth and natural.

Another thing, the size of the signature and the thickness of 
the individual characters is out of proportion with the text size.
Would a human being sign his name like that?  Only an awkward
child, perhaps.  Use a smaller, thinner signature or increase
the font size.



From akalten at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 12:37:32 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:37:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070723123732.34c88e89.akalten@comcast.net>

> No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg

Appearances can not only important, they can be decisive.

Let us consider further your image.

Why have you used a screen capture to produce this
image?  Ghostscript has drivers for pnm as well as
png that could have been used to produce the image
directly.

Also, the choice of the JPEG format is an extremely
poor choice.  Due to the nature of the compression
process, JPEG is not at all suitable for text (or
any other material that has such drastic edges).
PNG would have been the best choice, but if the 
concern is browswer compatibility, then GIF.

Based on this poorly wrought presentation, I would
have serious doubts about your overall competency.

I would come to the same conclusion if I were to
receive a document with no human signature included.

It may be irrational, but that's life.



From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 23 12:44:14 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:44:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older 
hardware?

So far I have tried SuSE Desktop 10.2, but I think I can get by with 
something much more lightweight.  Looked into "Damn Small Linux", but that 
seems to be the other extreme.  Any suggestions for something somewhere in 
the middle?

Thanks! 



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jul 23 13:05:08 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:05:08 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E67@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael ORourke

> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older 
> hardware?

 Depends heavily on "how old". The key is RAM. Xubuntu, for example, uses
XFCE as its desktop environment, and can operate with 64MB RAM. But for a
while I had a PII-450 running normal Gnome Ubuntu (up to about 6.06 or os)
with 384MB RAM. Once I even booted it up with "mem=96M" and it worked okay.
Only one app could really be used at a time, but it was usable.

 I managed to get Debian + XFCE installed onto a P-133 laptop w/32MB RAM,
but I never really got it to be usable. I think if I could have squeezed
another 32MB in there it would have been okay.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                       (313) 227-2317

 If George Bush thinks "gay marriage" is such a big deal that he
 needs to muck with our Constitution, why didn't he push for it
             to be written into Iraq's new one?
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Mon Jul 23 13:45:35 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:45:35 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/23/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
> hardware?

Stuff I've used by size/features:
Xubuntu
Puppy www.puppylinux.com
DeLi delili.lens.hl-users.com

There are lots of other Ubuntu-based distros with various system requirements:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ubuntu-based_distributions


From akalten at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 13:56:42 2007
From: akalten at comcast.net (A. Kalten)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:56:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
Message-ID: <20070723135642.69e30465.akalten@comcast.net>

> I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using
> the WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and
> they often don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the worst
> at that, it always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what I want
> to do, despite me telling it to do something else. I now only use
> things like Word when I have to put something in that format. I use
> groff for most documents, and LaTeX for a few things groff can't do,
> all put into PDF format.

> Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that
> make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.  OOo
> Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the end of the
> day, though, I've never seen an office suite that actually impresses me.


This is all much too vague and general.  What, specifically, are
you, or were you, trying to accomplish?

The biggest mistake is to expect too much from a word processor.
They can only perform certain limited tasks.  They cannot accommodate
every possible whim of the human imagination.

Most often, the design of a document must conform to the
capabilities of a particular word processor and not vice
versa.  Thus, it becomes incumbent on the user to fully
understand what a given word processor can do and what it
cannot.  (How many casual users spend time studying the
voluminous software manuals?)

I also utilize accounting software and pay attention
to some of the relevant forums.  A lot of time people
will ask "How do I do this?" or "How do I do that?"
with a particular package.  The answer is that the
software was simply not designed to do those things
and the only solution is to find another tool.  These
people will then vilely curse the package for its
shortcomings and then leave, still hoping to somehow
find a way to "force" it to do their bidding.

Idiots.

Of course, the same applies to word processors and 
anything else.



From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Mon Jul 23 14:00:06 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:00:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

On 7/23/07 1:45 PM, "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/23/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
>> hardware?
> 
> Stuff I've used by size/features:
> Xubuntu
> Puppy www.puppylinux.com
> DeLi delili.lens.hl-users.com
> 
> There are lots of other Ubuntu-based distros with various system requirements:
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ubuntu-based_distributions
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

How about Gentoo?  Then you can decide how little/big you want your install
to be?  Biggest pain is that it is almost from scratch.

http://www.gentoo.org/



From danno at umich.edu  Mon Jul 23 14:35:15 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:35:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] "Digital" signatures
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20070722190038.02925b40@pop.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<6.2.3.4.0.20070722190038.02925b40@pop.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070723183515.GA4215@maniac.deathstar.org>

On Sun, Jul 22, 2007 at 07:19:10PM -0400, Drew wrote:
> At 12:11 PM 7/22/07, Dan Pritts wrote:
> >as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
> >signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.
> 
>      I hope that it would mean a PGP signature, which is designed to 
> as much as possible
> eliminate the possibility that someone other than the key owner 
> signed it instead.

Nope.

according to wikipedia,

The term electronic signature has several meanings. In recent US law,
influenced by ABA committee white papers and the National Conference of
Commissioners on Uniform State Laws (NCCUSL), electronic signature means
"an electronic sound, symbol, or process, attached to or logically
associated with a record and executed or adopted by a person with the
intent to sign the record." This definition comes from the Uniform
Electronic Transactions Act or "UETA" released by NCCUSL in 1999. [1] The
U.S. ESign Act of 2000 [2] enacted on a federal level many of the core
concepts of UETA. 46 US states, the District of Columbia, and the US
Virgin Islands have enacted UETA. 



danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Mon Jul 23 14:38:37 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:38:37 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707231138m22a6e969o105e26ff84344aea@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/23/07, Wojtak, Greg <GregWojtak at quickenloans.com> wrote:
> How about Gentoo?  Then you can decide how little/big you want your install
> to be?  Biggest pain is that it is almost from scratch.
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/



I'm a user and a big fan of Gentoo, but it takes way to long to
compile on older systems.  Sure, one could use distcc, but not
everyone has more powerful machines available to them (hence the need
to use an older machine in the first place).


-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:09:08 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:09:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231702150.2227@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-23, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
> LaTex is not ordinary used for electronic exhange (although like
> anything else it certainly could be).  LaTeX is used to produce
> a material piece of printed paper (think of it!) that is then
> physically translocated through space and time (think ot it!)

o_O

> Silly?  Well, that is a matter of subjective taste.  It may not
> be required, but in the business world a human signature does add
> a professional touch to a letter document and that simple gesture
> can often make a great difference.

In a snail mail letter it makes a difference.

> Let us consider the neck tie.  What is the point of a neck tie?

O_o

>> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg
>
> The image is not positioned correctly.  It should be moved
> over toward the left.  That's how a human being would do it.

Not this human being.

> Also, the signature is much too jagged.  That must be the result
> of resizing.  You should always use potrace (potrace.sourceforge.net)
> to make it smooth and natural.
>
> Another thing, the size of the signature and the thickness of
> the individual characters is out of proportion with the text size.
> Would a human being sign his name like that?  Only an awkward
> child, perhaps.  Use a smaller, thinner signature or increase
> the font size.

Uh, it was just an example of how it can be done, something you
claimed was really difficult to do (and wasn't). Sheesh!

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:15:56 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:15:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723123732.34c88e89.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070723123732.34c88e89.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231709320.2227@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-23, Monsieur A. Kalten a ecrit:
>> No, it isn't. It's dead simple actually:
>> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg
>
> Appearances can not only important, they can be decisive.
>
> Let us consider further your image.
[snip irrelevant criticism]
> Based on this poorly wrought presentation, I would
> have serious doubts about your overall competency.

Well, I think that just about ends this discussion.
Check out "The LaTeX Companion", 2nd ed., for more help with LaTeX.
Good luck!

Michael


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Mon Jul 23 17:21:47 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:21:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Question on Spam
In-Reply-To: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070707110603.16eb0db7.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0707231715180.24164@rich.rrclark.net>

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007, A. Kalten wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Except for the fact that everything was done on a Linux machine
> using Linux tools, this topic does not actually involve Linux.
> But since a lot of people on this list are versed in networking,
> I thought it might be appropriate to present it here.
> 
> Quite frequently I receive spam that seems to originate from
> bona fide IP addresses that would not likely be in the spamming
> business.  For example, just today I noticed a spam message with
> both the "From:" and "Reply-to:" fields containing abacus21.com,
> which is a legitimate business located in Buffalo, NY, serving the
> hospitality industry.  Of course, these fields can be spoofed, but
> the complete header does show the message as originating at
> abacus21.com:

Sorry this reply is so late, just reviewing old, unread mail.

What you're seeing is a header forgery. I'll point them out for ya.

> Return-Path: <a-8 at abacus21.com>

The below header is the header generated by your internal mail system on 
moving it from the inbound queue to your local mailbox.

> Received: from barium.ypsi.provide.net (root at localhost)
> 	by xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eaDn013984
> 	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:36 -0400

Next header, I'm not certain what's generating this, but it's pointing at 
the likely originator.

> X-ClientAddr: 221.133.163.182

This header below is barium.ypsi.provide.net receiving the message from 
221.133.163.182.

> Received: from [221.133.163.182] ([221.133.163.182])
> 	by barium.ypsi.provide.net (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l678eWWn013906
> 	for <info at xxxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:40:33 -0400

The line below is an outright forgery, meant to foul up things for 
automated spam reporting engines, such as spamcop.net and amateur mail 
header readers.

> Received: from [221.133.163.182] by abacus21.com.inbound20.mxlogic.net; Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:40:35 -0900
> 
> Or is the explanation just a simple matter of abacus21.com being
> a relay?

None of the above, actually. Just another botted Korean windows 
installation.

Many people use Spamhaus's Zen blocklist in their mail system. Had you 
been using it, you wouldn't have seen the original email.


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:33:01 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:33:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723030454.182455bb@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722035600.44488dc7@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222153050.2920@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070723030454.182455bb@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231716190.2227@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-23, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Huh.  So if I were working on a spec sheet with LaTeX, and my
> hypothetical boss came in and looked over my shoulder and said that
> that graphic had to be a smidgen to the left... no not that far... or
> maybe put it down below that text...

If your boss is doing all that, then I think you have bigger issues to
worry about. ;)

> I would have no problem making
> those adjustments quickly in real time, so he could see the results?

You could do that if you used LyX to handle the LaTeX, I believe.

> Going to a text editor, changing numbers around, recompiling, and
> loading the results in to a Postscript viewer does not cut it there.

Well, I guess it comes down to how much your boss cares about quality
work. If he can't wait a few seconds while looking over your shoulder(!)
for something that will look good when done...well, I can't help you
there.

> I suspect you mean that LaTeX is better then office suites for the
> types of documents I mentioned, not the situations.  In that, you may
> be right - I don't know, but I am interested in learning.

The best way to learn LaTeX is to get the book "The LaTeX Companion",
2nd ed. There are also lots of good tutorials and documentation at
http://www.ctan.org.

> Graphics actually created with LaTeX?  That is very interesting. Can
> you give me an example of some LaTeX code to draw a picture?

PGF is a good graphics package for LaTeX, there are lots of examples here:
http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/graphics/pgf/doc/generic/pgf/version-for-pdftex/en/pgfmanual.pdf

Metapost and PSTricks are also good for graphics, search on CTAN for
those.

> Also, I have never had a chance to use the Acrobat suite, but it is my
> understanding that even then, you can't really edit PDFs all that well.

I've never seen any difficulty doing that. YMMV.

Michael


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 23 17:40:05 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:40:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <20070723174005.51907e65@tessa.long>

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:44:14 -0400
"Michael ORourke" <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older 
> hardware?
> 
> So far I have tried SuSE Desktop 10.2, but I think I can get by with 
> something much more lightweight.  Looked into "Damn Small Linux", but
> that seems to be the other extreme.  Any suggestions for something
> somewhere in the middle?

Personally, I would use Debian and just choose the packages I wanted.
Start with a minimal server install, and add whatever
light-weight desktop software you like.  Depending on just how old this
hardware is, we could be talking anything from "apt-get install twm"
to "apt-get install wmaker" to "apt-get install rox" (that last one
after adding the Rox repository to your sources.list).  Just installing
a window manager or desktop is a nice easy way to bootstrap in X and
anything else you really need. Other suggested window managers would
include XFCE, UDE, fvwm...

Good luck,
Matthew


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:47:53 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:47:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070722233042.113659a5@tessa.long>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707222114420.2878@banana.sluggo.net>
	<20070722233042.113659a5@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231733090.2227@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-22, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
>> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/micorral/latexsig.jpg
>>
>> It took me about 1 minute to figure out how to put that signature
>> image in the letter example I gave the other day (I made the signature
>> itself in the Gimp - you can tell I'm no graphic artist. :) ).
>
> I would like to see how, please.  This is interesting.

I created an image file (sig.png) in the Gimp, about 0.5 inches
high and 2 inches long. Then I modified the letter.tex file:

\documentclass{letter}
\usepackage[letterpaper]{hyperref}
\usepackage{graphicx}
\begin{document}
\begin{letter}{Mr. Joe Smith\\1234 Main St.\\Anytown, MI 48123}
\address{Bob Linux\\666 Torvalds Rd \#69\\Mytown, MI 48456}
\signature{Bob Linux}
\opening{Dear Joe,}
This is my very first time using \LaTeX. I definitely like it. I will be
using it much more in the future. In fact, I plan to redo my r\'esum\`e
in it.

I hope you like the way this looks!
\closing{Sincerely,\\\raisebox{-0.5in}[0in][0in]{\includegraphics{sig.png}}}
\end{letter}
\end{document}

---end of code---

Then run "pdflatex letter.tex" and view the letter.pdf file.

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Mon Jul 23 17:53:28 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:53:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707231751310.2457@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-23, Monsieur Michael ORourke a ecrit:
> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
> hardware?

I'd recommend Slackware. The new version is very good, and it runs
great on old hardware (using a light window manager like WindowMaker,
fvwm, Blackbox, or maybe even XFCE).

Michael


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 23 18:11:46 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:11:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723135642.69e30465.akalten@comcast.net>
References: <20070723135642.69e30465.akalten@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070723181146.68bdf905@tessa.long>

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:56:42 -0400
"A. Kalten" <akalten at comcast.net> wrote:

> > I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using
> > the WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and
> > they often don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the
> > worst at that, it always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what
> > I want to do, despite me telling it to do something else. I now
> > only use things like Word when I have to put something in that
> > format. I use groff for most documents, and LaTeX for a few things
> > groff can't do, all put into PDF format.
> 
> > Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that
> > make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.
> > OOo Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the
> > end of the day, though, I've never seen an office suite that
> > actually impresses me.
> 
> 
> This is all much too vague and general.  What, specifically, are
> you, or were you, trying to accomplish?

Well, first of all, your quotes above mix up something Michael Corral
said (the first paragraph) with something I said in response (starting
at "Well, of course, Word is awful").  Just want to be clear, I have
not given up on word processors in general.

This being the case, I can't answer your question; there is no pinpoint
thing I can say I "was trying to accomplish" over the past few decades.

> The biggest mistake is to expect too much from a word processor.
> They can only perform certain limited tasks.  They cannot accommodate
> every possible whim of the human imagination.

OK, this I can work with.

Some of my expectations from a word processor are that it:

* handle styles correctly and consistently;
* put graphics where I tell it to, rather than teleporting them around;
* not behave differently based on the size of the document;
* allow me at least as much control over formatting as I would have
	with pure XHTML and CSS;
* handle Word DOCs correctly;
* and not crash.

MS Word falls far short on all points, except handling of DOCs.  OOo
Writer does much better in general, and handles DOCs well.  Abiword
does very very well in general, but handles DOCs poorly.

Not that I wouldn't like to have higher expectations.  Word processors
fit a very awkward niche between text editors and desktop publishing
systems, trying to make it easier than DTP and give you more control
and better results then a plain text editor.  When formatting is
everything, I am likely to use a DTP or vector graphics package
(Inkscape, Scribus, etc.); when format is irrelevant, I am likely to
use Emacs in text mode.

> Most often, the design of a document must conform to the
> capabilities of a particular word processor and not vice
> versa.  Thus, it becomes incumbent on the user to fully
> understand what a given word processor can do and what it
> cannot.  (How many casual users spend time studying the
> voluminous software manuals?)

Really, this is a pretty sad thing to admit, but is effectively true.
My real position is that traditional office software is just based on a
very poor model of how to do things.

Regards,
Matthew

(Huh.  "Teleporting" is not in my spell-check dictionary.)


From relson at osagesoftware.com  Mon Jul 23 19:10:06 2007
From: relson at osagesoftware.com (David Relson)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:10:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2CA64E6.3F0F5%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <20070723191006.263ed296@osage.osagesoftware.com>

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:00:06 -0400
Wojtak, Greg wrote:

...[snip]....

> How about Gentoo?  Then you can decide how little/big you want your
> install to be?  Biggest pain is that it is almost from scratch.
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/

While gentoo is very configurable, it _does_ have some disk space
requirements.  At present /usr/portage occupies approx 600Mb.  If I
recall, the recommendation for installing it used to be 1GB of ram
(including swap).

Regards,

David



From wolfger at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 07:38:19 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:38:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>

Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Tue Jul 24 08:37:57 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (Bob Dion)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:37:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
Message-ID: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>

Hi All,

I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web 
development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to a 
my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off Front 
Page, if not on to Linux as yet.

Any and all suggestions welcome
Thanx
BD


From tmorris at ugs.com  Tue Jul 24 08:39:32 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:39:32 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <20070723181146.68bdf905@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20345A748@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

I can't remember... What the hell were we arguing about? (and why?)

--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of M. D. Krauss
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 6:12 PM
To: mdlug at mdlug.org
Subject: Re: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:56:42 -0400
"A. Kalten" <akalten at comcast.net> wrote:

> > I used to be a big WordPerfect fan. But now I just don't like using 
> > the WYSIWYG word processors anymore, they are too restrictive and 
> > they often don't do what you try to get them to do. Word is the 
> > worst at that, it always infuriates me when it thinks it knows what 
> > I want to do, despite me telling it to do something else. I now only

> > use things like Word when I have to put something in that format. I 
> > use groff for most documents, and LaTeX for a few things groff can't

> > do, all put into PDF format.
> 
> > Well, of course, Word is awful.  There are just a ton of issues that

> > make anything beyond the most basic formatting a total headache.
> > OOo Writer is Somewhat better.  Abiword is much cleaner.  At the end

> > of the day, though, I've never seen an office suite that actually 
> > impresses me.
> 
> 
> This is all much too vague and general.  What, specifically, are you, 
> or were you, trying to accomplish?

Well, first of all, your quotes above mix up something Michael Corral
said (the first paragraph) with something I said in response (starting
at "Well, of course, Word is awful").  Just want to be clear, I have not
given up on word processors in general.

This being the case, I can't answer your question; there is no pinpoint
thing I can say I "was trying to accomplish" over the past few decades.

> The biggest mistake is to expect too much from a word processor.
> They can only perform certain limited tasks.  They cannot accommodate 
> every possible whim of the human imagination.

OK, this I can work with.

Some of my expectations from a word processor are that it:

* handle styles correctly and consistently;
* put graphics where I tell it to, rather than teleporting them around;
* not behave differently based on the size of the document;
* allow me at least as much control over formatting as I would have
	with pure XHTML and CSS;
* handle Word DOCs correctly;
* and not crash.

MS Word falls far short on all points, except handling of DOCs.  OOo
Writer does much better in general, and handles DOCs well.  Abiword does
very very well in general, but handles DOCs poorly.

Not that I wouldn't like to have higher expectations.  Word processors
fit a very awkward niche between text editors and desktop publishing
systems, trying to make it easier than DTP and give you more control and
better results then a plain text editor.  When formatting is everything,
I am likely to use a DTP or vector graphics package (Inkscape, Scribus,
etc.); when format is irrelevant, I am likely to use Emacs in text mode.

> Most often, the design of a document must conform to the capabilities 
> of a particular word processor and not vice versa.  Thus, it becomes 
> incumbent on the user to fully understand what a given word processor 
> can do and what it cannot.  (How many casual users spend time studying

> the voluminous software manuals?)

Really, this is a pretty sad thing to admit, but is effectively true.
My real position is that traditional office software is just based on a
very poor model of how to do things.

Regards,
Matthew

(Huh.  "Teleporting" is not in my spell-check dictionary.)
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From markmont at umich.edu  Tue Jul 24 08:44:13 2007
From: markmont at umich.edu (Mark Montague)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:44:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>

On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 08:37, Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web 
> development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to a 
> my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off Front 
> Page, if not on to Linux as yet.
>   

http://www.nvu.com/index.php

Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that 
Firefox does.

                Mark Montague
                markmont at umich.edu




From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 09:29:07 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:29:07 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5aa434200707240629i4b6d66c9i31bee9cc32125135@mail.gmail.com>

LUGs won't die, they'll change. Installfests aren't needed to get the
average Joe on linux anymore, but regardless, nothing beats having a
well-connected network of people in an area to whom questions can be
asked, advice requested, or just jokes told. A random person playing
around with Linux might not need a LUG to do so anymore, but that's
hardly a death sentence.

Besides, people like me like to lurk on mailing lists and whore out
own own LUGs to  them (*coughwaynestateuniversitylug*), and just kind
of have "an ear to the ground". I almost treat the mailing list like
an RSS feed that I occasionally can post on.


On 7/24/07, Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com> wrote:
> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss
>
> --
> Wolfger
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
> http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> Skype: wolfger88
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 12:30:05 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:30:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com> <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>

Mark Montague wrote:
>
> Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that 
> Firefox does.
>   
Nvu has some stability issues.  Most of my sessions end in a crash, or
rather a program lock.  And like any such program it has it's ideas as
to what works and what does, and they don't always work.  You will need
to edit the HTML on anything other than the simplest pages.


-- 
Garry AKA --Phoenix-- Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Tue Jul 24 12:38:09 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:38:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <C2CBA331.3F35A%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

On 7/24/07 12:30 PM, "Garry Stahl" <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:

> Mark Montague wrote:
>> 
>> Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that
>> Firefox does.
>>   
> Nvu has some stability issues.  Most of my sessions end in a crash, or
> rather a program lock.  And like any such program it has it's ideas as
> to what works and what does, and they don't always work.  You will need
> to edit the HTML on anything other than the simplest pages.
> 

<meta name="editor" content="/usr/bin/vi" />

'nuff said.  ;-)

Greg


From dcl400m at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 13:04:31 2007
From: dcl400m at yahoo.com (David Lane)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:04:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <5aa434200707240629i4b6d66c9i31bee9cc32125135@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <106488.65500.qm@web37909.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I will have to agree.  I would hope the LUG's would start to reach out to the regular users and and introduce then to the alternitive. 
   
  I do know that small business people would love to know that they can get A LOT of day to day resources for free in linux and open source.  
   
  But the thing that needs to happen is that people need to see these groups as collection of Tech Guru's.
   
  If a small business person knows that he/she can a few older computers into router( ipcop ) and there own web server with a few older computers, that is GREAT.  They have ownership of there own resources.  
   
  Open Office on 5 - 10 station WOW VoIP for the phone system WOW.
   
  Linux Canada for POS. Man we are moving now.  
   
  The whole thing is the Linux is here, yet many poeple use Windows and other Microsoft products because it is easy and well known.  
   
  It would be cool to do a PC/MAC style commertial to inform small busniss owners that a LINUX infastructure has a low initial investment commentment and yeilds flexablity among other binifits.  
   
  
Mike Ward <unforgiven24 at gmail.com> wrote:
  LUGs won't die, they'll change. Installfests aren't needed to get the
average Joe on linux anymore, but regardless, nothing beats having a
well-connected network of people in an area to whom questions can be
asked, advice requested, or just jokes told. A random person playing
around with Linux might not need a LUG to do so anymore, but that's
hardly a death sentence.

Besides, people like me like to lurk on mailing lists and whore out
own own LUGs to them (*coughwaynestateuniversitylug*), and just kind
of have "an ear to the ground". I almost treat the mailing list like
an RSS feed that I occasionally can post on.


On 7/24/07, Wolfger wrote:
> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss
>
> --
> Wolfger
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
> http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> Skype: wolfger88
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


       
---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070724/ea7fa569/attachment-0001.html>

From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 24 13:07:20 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:07:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001c7ce15$18808760$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

Another good sign is if you don't have a pulse.  :-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wolfger" <wolfger at gmail.com>
To: "MDLUG Main" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:38 AM
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?


> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss
>
> -- 
> Wolfger
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
> http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> Skype: wolfger88
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.16/914 - Release Date: 7/23/2007 
> 7:45 PM
>
> 



From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Tue Jul 24 13:17:19 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:17:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com> <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
Message-ID: <46A6341F.7020402@starline-ent.com>

Mark Montague wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 08:37, Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com> wrote:
>> I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web 
>> development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to a 
>> my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off Front 
>> Page, if not on to Linux as yet.
>>   
> 
> http://www.nvu.com/index.php
> 
> Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that 
> Firefox does.
> 

Thanx,

This is included on TheOpenCD so I decided to DL the latest version of 
  TheOpenCD and start him on that. I'm also including a copy of gvim for 
win32, as recommended on another list.

BD



From mdlug2 at arb.net  Tue Jul 24 13:31:56 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:31:56 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] "Digital" signatures
In-Reply-To: <20070723045403.1DA7320AB03@starfox.local>
References: <20070720041929.GA5909@squish.home.loc>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707200028470.4841@banana.sluggo.net>	<20070720175636.1fe70819@tessa.long>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707201928380.3228@banana.sluggo.net>	<20070721004557.764f9c3b@tessa.long>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707210243390.4709@banana.sluggo.net>	<20070721114045.37cd4932.akalten@comcast.net>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707211530180.2067@banana.sluggo.net>	<20070722033851.5aeb5864@tessa.long>	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>	<20070722161144.GA95175@maniac.deathstar.org>
	<20070723045403.1DA7320AB03@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46A6378C.5080806@arb.net>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Drew, Dan, Michael
>
>   
>>> as it turns out, there is a US law that states that "electronic
>>> signatures" (whatever that means) are valid/enforceable.
>>>       
>
>   
>> I hope that it would mean a PGP signature, which is designed to 
>> as much as possible eliminate the possibility that someone other than the
>> key owner signed it instead.
>>     
>
> I believe you are referring to FIPS-186, (Federal Information Processing
> Standards Publication 186) (http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/fip186.htm) .
>
> FIPS-186 is identified by Open-PGP (RFC 2440) as signature algorithm 17 ,
> which I believe is the default signature algorithm of gpg.
>
> Hopefully helpful,
>   
One part of "Digital Signatures" often missed by IT folks - especially 
the high up the food chain you go, is the infrastructure ( hw & sw) that 
assures nonrepudiation...  You can't just install a system, even if 
properly architected, and expect it to remain a source of digital 
signatures that "are legal". You must maintain the security triad for it 
to remain such a system. Here is a fairly good doc from the Bar 
association - nonrepudiation

-dave ( CISSP)


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 15:23:35 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:23:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <C2CBA331.3F35A%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C2CBA331.3F35A%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241522260.2067@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-24, Monsieur Wojtak, Greg a ecrit:
> <meta name="editor" content="/usr/bin/vi" />

s/vi/emacs/

There, corrected it for you. :p

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 15:27:46 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:27:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-24, Monsieur Wolfger a ecrit:
> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss

<Bones>It's dead, Jim.</Bones>

Distro-specific web forums and just overall ease of installation/use
of modern Linux systems killed the LUG, quite some time ago.
May it rest in peace.

Michael


From rrcb21 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 15:45:04 2007
From: rrcb21 at yahoo.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:45:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment
Message-ID: <428847.24661.qm@web82309.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


=====MonroeLUG June Meeting Announcement=====

Topic: Whatever we come up with tonight
Date & Time: Tuesday July 24, 2007 6:00PM - 9:00PM
Place: Monroe County Community College La-Z-Boy Center Room Z-271 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1555+S.Raisinville+Rd.+monroe+mi+48161

We don't have a scheduled topic for tonight and we are just going to wing it.
So if you want to come to the meeting and talk about something cool you did in the last month or
so please do. Otherwise this meeting might be used to plane the future if the LUG and how best to
advertise it to the community.

We look forward to seeing everyone at the meeting on Tonight, for the mean time have a
save and happy week.

-Ron




From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Tue Jul 24 16:00:31 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:00:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241522260.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <C2CBD29F.3F410%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

On 7/24/07 3:23 PM, "Michael Corral" <micorral at comcast.net> wrote:

> 2007-07-24, Monsieur Wojtak, Greg a ecrit:
>> <meta name="editor" content="/usr/bin/vi" />
> 
> s/vi/emacs/
> 
> There, corrected it for you. :p
> 
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


Isn't that a violation of the XHTML DTD?  * shudders at the though of emacs
*


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 17:42:24 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:42:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] [OT] Perspective
In-Reply-To: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20345A748@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
References: <20070723181146.68bdf905@tessa.long>
	<B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20345A748@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>
Message-ID: <20070724174224.09ba6013@tessa.long>

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:39:32 -0500
"Morris, Tim" <tmorris at ugs.com> wrote:

> I can't remember... What the hell were we arguing about? (and why?)

I wasn't arguing - just discussing the relative merits of different
document preparation systems and trying to learn something about LaTeX.
I do feel an argumentative vibe building, though.  If my posts came
across as part of it, I apologize.

Best regards to all,
Matthew


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 17:52:15 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:52:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <46A6748F.2020109@comcast.net>

Michael Corral wrote:
> Distro-specific web forums and just overall ease of installation/use
> of modern Linux systems killed the LUG, quite some time ago.
> May it rest in peace.
>   

"I'm not dead yet!"

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From zifferent at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 17:43:32 2007
From: zifferent at yahoo.com (Dan DeSloover)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:43:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TALUG: MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment
In-Reply-To: <428847.24661.qm@web82309.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <428847.24661.qm@web82309.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46A67284.30005@yahoo.com>

Everyone is going to love this. The meeting may be a bit sparse because 
Ron's wife may have went into labor.

Possible early congrats, to Ron and his wife.

Ron Blanchett wrote:
> <-------- TALUG Info: http://www.talug.org -------->
>
>
> =====MonroeLUG June Meeting Announcement=====
>
> Topic: Whatever we come up with tonight
> Date & Time: Tuesday July 24, 2007 6:00PM - 9:00PM
> Place: Monroe County Community College La-Z-Boy Center Room Z-271 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1555+S.Raisinville+Rd.+monroe+mi+48161
>
> We don't have a scheduled topic for tonight and we are just going to wing it.
> So if you want to come to the meeting and talk about something cool you did in the last month or
> so please do. Otherwise this meeting might be used to plane the future if the LUG and how best to
> advertise it to the community.
>
> We look forward to seeing everyone at the meeting on Tonight, for the mean time have a
> save and happy week.
>
> -Ron
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talug mailing list
> talug at talug.org
> http://bridge.uniqsys.com/mailman/listinfo/talug
>
>   



From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 18:02:48 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:02:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070724180248.3d6f2e2b@tessa.long>

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:38:19 -0400
Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com> wrote:

> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss

In another forum, someone was criticizing Linux, and one of the things
they said was that any system that requires User Groups just to get it
running was no good (heavily paraphrasing).  My response was that
things have changed a lot, and people don't actually *need* a LUG
anymore; but that LUGs were still a fantastic source of free tech
support, far better then most commercial tech support for proprietary
systems.

Even Mac users sometimes need support, and Linux users are much more
likely then most to be doing more advanced things that are not easy
yet.

Anyhow, we're here.  Kind of silly to see an alleged corpse sit up and
ask: "Gee, am I dead?"

Chuckling Regards,
Matthew


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 18:15:24 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:15:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <20070724181524.6a368b2d@tessa.long>

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:37:57 -0400
Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web 
> development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to
> a my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off
> Front Page, if not on to Linux as yet.

I think Emacs works well.

If he really needs a GUI, and you want him to learn to do things the
right way, I suggest Amaya:
http://www.w3.org/Amaya/

Also, make sure he knows about the Web Developer extension for Firefox.
It is not only useful in itself, but makes it easy to run a page
through standards validation.  I'll bet if he starts using it, he will
see just how bad Front Page is.

Good luck,
Matthew


From zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 18:22:07 2007
From: zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com (M. D. Krauss)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:22:07 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TALUG: MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment
In-Reply-To: <46A67284.30005@yahoo.com>
References: <428847.24661.qm@web82309.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<46A67284.30005@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20070724182207.4cb0da6d@tessa.long>

On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:43:32 -0400
Dan DeSloover <zifferent at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Everyone is going to love this. The meeting may be a bit sparse
> because Ron's wife may have went into labor.
> 
> Possible early congrats, to Ron and his wife.

Cheers!

Maybe the baby will be born in time to make the end of the meeting.
Imagine coming to a LUG meeting on your zeroth birthday! What a destiny
that child would have!

Very Best Regards,
Matthew


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 18:43:56 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:43:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <46A6748F.2020109@comcast.net>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>
	<46A6748F.2020109@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241841330.3448@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-24, Monsieur Garry Stahl a ecrit:
> Michael Corral wrote:
>> Distro-specific web forums and just overall ease of installation/use
>> of modern Linux systems killed the LUG, quite some time ago.
>> May it rest in peace.
>
> "I'm not dead yet!"

.oO(how do I break the news to Garry?...)

Michael


From micorral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 18:56:14 2007
From: micorral at comcast.net (Michael Corral)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:56:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <20070724180248.3d6f2e2b@tessa.long>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070724180248.3d6f2e2b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241844100.3448@banana.sluggo.net>

2007-07-24, Monsieur M. D. Krauss a ecrit:
> Anyhow, we're here.  Kind of silly to see an alleged corpse sit up and
> ask: "Gee, am I dead?"

No, we're dead. It's sad but true. :(

MDLUG is just a shadow of what it used to be. We used to have large
meetings, not anymore. We used to have lots of traffic on the mail
list, not anymore. Things change. MDLUG continues on mostly as a mail
list, but the number of posts is down to a trickle, and usually from
the same handful of "usual suspects". And it's not just MDLUG. The
WLUG list is even more dead (sorry Jay:). And other LUGs across the
country are experiencing the same thing. Someone in that slashdot
article put the R.I.P. date somewhere in 2004. That sounds about
right to me.

Michael


From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Jul 24 19:00:50 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:00:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241841330.3448@banana.sluggo.net>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241523450.2067@banana.sluggo.net>	<46A6748F.2020109@comcast.net>
	<alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241841330.3448@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <46A684A2.8080506@comcast.net>

Michael Corral wrote:
> 2007-07-24, Monsieur Garry Stahl a ecrit:
>   
>> Michael Corral wrote:
>>     
>>> Distro-specific web forums and just overall ease of installation/use
>>> of modern Linux systems killed the LUG, quite some time ago.
>>> May it rest in peace.
>>>       
>> "I'm not dead yet!"
>>     
>
> .oO(how do I break the news to Garry?...)
>   

"I'm getting better."

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 21:36:48 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:36:48 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <20070724181524.6a368b2d@tessa.long>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com>
	<20070724181524.6a368b2d@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <5aa434200707241836t40fe9bdau857f1645cd2e0707@mail.gmail.com>

Web Developer extension is to a web developer as a hammer is to a
carpenter. You can do without it, but I don't see why you'd ever want
to.

On 7/24/07, M. D. Krauss <zeros0and1ones at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:37:57 -0400
> Bob Dion <bobdion at starline-ent.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'm looking for recommendations for Free Open Source software for web
> > development that runs on windows that I can DL burn to CD and give to
> > a my Friend's 14 year old son. This is so I can at lease get him off
> > Front Page, if not on to Linux as yet.
>
> I think Emacs works well.
>
> If he really needs a GUI, and you want him to learn to do things the
> right way, I suggest Amaya:
> http://www.w3.org/Amaya/
>
> Also, make sure he knows about the Web Developer extension for Firefox.
> It is not only useful in itself, but makes it easy to run a page
> through standards validation.  I'll bet if he starts using it, he will
> see just how bad Front Page is.
>
> Good luck,
> Matthew
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


From rrcb21 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 24 22:53:27 2007
From: rrcb21 at yahoo.com (Ron Blanchett)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [mdlug] TALUG: MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment
Message-ID: <739275.69468.qm@web82305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


False alarm, back to waiting......

----- Original Message ----
From: Dan DeSloover <zifferent at yahoo.com>
To: talug at talug.org; Ron Blanchett <muteid10t at gmail.com>
Cc: Monroe LUG <mc-lug at monroelug.org>; MetroDetroit LUG <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:43:32 PM
Subject: Re: TALUG: MonroeLUG July Meeting Announcment

Everyone is going to love this. The meeting may be a bit sparse because 
Ron's wife may have went into labor.

Possible early congrats, to Ron and his wife.

Ron Blanchett wrote:
> <-------- TALUG Info: http://www.talug.org -------->
>
>
> =====MonroeLUG June Meeting Announcement=====
>
> Topic: Whatever we come up with tonight
> Date & Time: Tuesday July 24, 2007 6:00PM - 9:00PM
> Place: Monroe County Community College La-Z-Boy Center Room Z-271 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=1555+S.Raisinville+Rd.+monroe+mi+48161
>
> We don't have a scheduled topic for tonight and we are just going to wing it.
> So if you want to come to the meeting and talk about something cool you did in the last month or
> so please do. Otherwise this meeting might be used to plane the future if the LUG and how best to
> advertise it to the community.
>
> We look forward to seeing everyone at the meeting on Tonight, for the mean time have a
> save and happy week.
>
> -Ron
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talug mailing list
> talug at talug.org
> http://bridge.uniqsys.com/mailman/listinfo/talug
>
>   






From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Jul 25 02:34:00 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:34:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3b00b3330707240438r5326d3aane337144450668786@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A6EED8.6080604@ameritech.net>

Wolfger wrote:
> Slashdot is discussing the demise of the LUG.
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/23/1357259&from=rss
> 

Something kind of hit me today.
I looked at you and wondered if you saw things my way.
We're taking it hard all the time.
...
Because of all we've seen.
Because of all we've said.
We are the dead.
       David Bowie


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 02:36:02 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:36:02 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com> <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
	<46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707242336w79370700nf612e77d270d0b2b@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/24/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> Mark Montague wrote:
> >
> > Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms that
> > Firefox does.
> >
> Nvu has some stability issues.  Most of my sessions end in a crash, or
> rather a program lock.  And like any such program it has it's ideas as
> to what works and what does, and they don't always work.  You will need
> to edit the HTML on anything other than the simplest pages.

I have not had stability problems with Nvu-- you may have a PC
hardware or OS problem.  Yes, it's a basic editor, but is DOES
suppport CSS and other standards better than FrontPage.

One might also consider the SeaMonkey suite-- as of v1.1.3, most of
Nvu's features have been back-ported to Composer, and it may be more
stable than Nvu itself, which seems stuck at v1.0

-- Mikey


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Jul 25 08:38:59 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:38:59 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <20070724180248.3d6f2e2b@tessa.long>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E70@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: M. D. Krauss

> My response was that
> things have changed a lot, and people don't actually *need* a LUG
> anymore; but that LUGs were still a fantastic source of free tech
> support, far better then most commercial tech support for proprietary
> systems.

 Something I posted on Slashdot yesterday:

 So far as I can see, every operating system runs into situations that
require a 'guru'. My parents are running Ubuntu pretty happily, and while
I have to do their tech support... well, I was doing that with Windows,
too, and now I don't have to fret so much about malware. My wife got me a
t-shirt for my birthday that says "No, I will not fix your computer."
because of all the 'tech support' requests I get from family and friends.
Of course, the vast majority of those were Windows. I'll still do Linux
support, but Windows-using people are SOL unless they are immediate family
members. I just don't have time for the rest.

 LUGs are nice for asking such questions; Google doesn't know everything,
and practical experience can be hard to find sometimes. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                 (313) 227-2317

 "In an illustrative recent study, subjects were asked their opinion about
  a social welfare policy, which was described as being endorsed either by
   Democrats or by Republicans. Although the subjects sincerely believed
   that their responses were based on the objective merits of the policy,
   the major determinant of what they thought of the policy was in fact
  whether or not their favored political party was said to endorse it."
                - Paul Bloom and Deena Skolnick Weisberg
          (study at: http://content2.apa.org/journals/psp/85/5/808)
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Wed Jul 25 09:15:57 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:15:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.0.999.0707241844100.3448@banana.sluggo.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E72@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Michael Corral

> MDLUG is just a shadow of what it used to be. We used to have large
> meetings, not anymore. We used to have lots of traffic on the mail
> list, not anymore. Things change. MDLUG continues on mostly as a mail
> list, but the number of posts is down to a trickle, and usually from
> the same handful of "usual suspects". And it's not just MDLUG. The
> WLUG list is even more dead (sorry Jay:). And other LUGs across the
> country are experiencing the same thing. Someone in that slashdot
> article put the R.I.P. date somewhere in 2004. That sounds about
> right to me.

 But certainly if I had to choose between the situation then and now I'd
take today in a heartbeat. Back around 1995-1996, Linux's profile was
practically nonexistent outside the serious computing enthusiasts.
Information was available on newsgroups, or via specialty-press books.
LUGs were wonderful at that time to pool and distribute knowledge and
even just general news.

 Now Linux is serious business, and is commonly seen in the wider
culture. Finding information is vastly easier, and virtual communities
in general are 'mainstream'; having one (or several) for Linux too is
no big deal. I can live with LUGs going away, as fun and useful as they've
been, if the *need* for them goes away in such a positive manner.

 Consider how few people feel it necessary to join an auto club these
days. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317

 "To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature,
          and it remains premature today." -Isaac Asimov
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jul 25 11:59:38 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:59:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E70@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E70@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46A7736A.9000501@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  So far as I can see, every operating system runs into situations that
> require a 'guru'. My parents are running Ubuntu pretty happily, and while
> I have to do their tech support... well, I was doing that with Windows,
> too, and now I don't have to fret so much about malware. My wife got me a
> t-shirt for my birthday that says "No, I will not fix your computer."
> because of all the 'tech support' requests I get from family and friends.
> Of course, the vast majority of those were Windows. I'll still do Linux
> support, but Windows-using people are SOL unless they are immediate family
> members. I just don't have time for the rest.
>   

I want one with a busted Windows logo that says "I don't do windows."



-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Wed Jul 25 12:03:38 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:03:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E72@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <C2CCEC9A.3F5BB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

On 7/25/07 9:15 AM, "Ingles, Raymond" <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:

>> From: Michael Corral
> 
>> MDLUG is just a shadow of what it used to be. We used to have large
>> meetings, not anymore. We used to have lots of traffic on the mail
>> list, not anymore. Things change. MDLUG continues on mostly as a mail
>> list, but the number of posts is down to a trickle, and usually from
>> the same handful of "usual suspects". And it's not just MDLUG. The
>> WLUG list is even more dead (sorry Jay:). And other LUGs across the
>> country are experiencing the same thing. Someone in that slashdot
>> article put the R.I.P. date somewhere in 2004. That sounds about
>> right to me.
> 
>  But certainly if I had to choose between the situation then and now I'd
> take today in a heartbeat. Back around 1995-1996, Linux's profile was
> practically nonexistent outside the serious computing enthusiasts.
> Information was available on newsgroups, or via specialty-press books.
> LUGs were wonderful at that time to pool and distribute knowledge and
> even just general news.
> 
>  Now Linux is serious business, and is commonly seen in the wider
> culture. Finding information is vastly easier, and virtual communities
> in general are 'mainstream'; having one (or several) for Linux too is
> no big deal. I can live with LUGs going away, as fun and useful as they've
> been, if the *need* for them goes away in such a positive manner.
> 
>  Consider how few people feel it necessary to join an auto club these
> days. :->
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317
> 
>  "To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature,
>           and it remains premature today." -Isaac Asimov
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It
> contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named
> addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose
> it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately
> and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

So in a way, the LUG has done its job - spreading information and knowledge
so that now a LUG is no longer as necessary as it was in the past.  Ironic,
but I'm sure the LUG would have wanted it that way.


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Jul 25 14:41:48 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:41:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <C2CCEC9A.3F5BB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <C2CCEC9A.3F5BB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <20070725184148.AD26620AB03@starfox.local>

Michael, Ray, Greg,

>>> MDLUG is just a shadow of what it used to be. ...
>> But certainly if I had to choose between the situation then and now I'd
>> take today in a heartbeat. ...
> So in a way, the LUG has done its job - ...

<IMHO>
I think the job need has changed.  Businesses have grown to service
some of the needs (distribution, configuration, ...) formerly supplied
by the lugs.  Virtual communities supply many other needs (tech support,
installation, ...)

History is repeating itself.  Now the lugs need to start serving as
standards publishers, educators, and quality watchdogs.  The Society
of Automative Engineers was the advocate of interoperable mechanical
standards, we now call "English".

The virtual communities tend to center around one product/brand/...
that is their principle support.  As always, short-term business
interests will push the business to "manage" the virtual communities
toward accepting decreasing quality standards (rather than invest
in design or repair), decreasing utility to the end customers (rather
than investing in research), and decreasing flexibility (rather than
stocking diversity).  To maintain the customer satisfaction, required for
long-term business interests, someone is needed to advocate research
and improving customer utility.

By linking customers who share geography, but do not share identical
interests/products/brands, the lugs now interlink the virtual communities
so that the above short-term pressures cannot go far, before the customers
are aware by comparison.  Even though too few customers may directly
interact via lugs, this tenuous connection is precious.

To fulfill this need, the lugs are well placed to follow
the lead of the Consumers Union, Automobile Assocations of America,
Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, and many others.
</IMHO>

My $0.02
-- 
Dr. B

"E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be
 used only to be used for company business."
      -- unknown


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 14:44:36 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:44:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <1185064979.23268.13.camel@hppavilion.kannanhome>
References: <1185064979.23268.13.camel@hppavilion.kannanhome>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707251144r5040af9dx58cf4dc9aedb33b9@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/21/07, R Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
>  All,
>
>  I upgraded from firefox 1.5.? to firefox.2.0.0.5 and installed the
> Macromedia Flashplayer 9.0 plugin. I had flashblock installed with the old
> version but when I try to install it from
>
>  https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/433
>
>  it gave me an error saying..
>
>  installLocation has no properties
>  Error: installLocation has no properties
> file:///usr/lib/firefox/components/nsExtensionManager.js
>  Line: 3940
>
>  Anyone knows how to get around this? I did not have a problem installing
> the same plugin with the old version.
>
>  TIA for any help.

It installed fine for me.
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)


From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jul 25 14:58:09 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:58:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] are we dead yet?
In-Reply-To: <20070725184148.AD26620AB03@starfox.local>
References: <C2CCEC9A.3F5BB%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
	<20070725184148.AD26620AB03@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46A79D41.8000200@comcast.net>

Robert Meier wrote:
> To fulfill this need, the lugs are well placed to follow
> the lead of the Consumers Union, Automobile Assocations of America,
> Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers, and many others.
> </IMHO>
>   
"I don't want to go on the cart."

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From wolfger at gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 15:11:23 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:11:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707251144r5040af9dx58cf4dc9aedb33b9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1185064979.23268.13.camel@hppavilion.kannanhome>
	<b02c40e90707251144r5040af9dx58cf4dc9aedb33b9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707251211m31e6ae59vd1d294610cef403f@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> It installed fine for me.
> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)

I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From tmorris at ugs.com  Wed Jul 25 15:17:23 2007
From: tmorris at ugs.com (Morris, Tim)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:17:23 -0500
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707251211m31e6ae59vd1d294610cef403f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5AF964E8C85CB49884C8B076A1580E20345B09E@USSLMPLM004.net.plm.eds.com>

I noticed a few websites and an iGoogle plugin didn't work correctly
either. 


--  Tim Morris - UGS PLM Software

-----Original Message-----
From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf
Of Wolfger
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:11 PM
To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0

On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> It installed fine for me.
> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)

I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.

--
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88
_______________________________________________
mdlug mailing list
mdlug at mdlug.org
http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Wed Jul 25 16:14:53 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:14:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
Message-ID: <27112652.1185394493499.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


How do you get an update pushed down to you?

Thanks
-----Original Message-----
>From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 25, 2007 3:11 PM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
>
>On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> It installed fine for me.
>> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
>> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)
>
>I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.
>
>-- 
>Wolfger
>http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
>http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
>AOL IM: wolf4coyot
>Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
>Skype: wolfger88
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From wolfger at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 05:29:28 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 05:29:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <27112652.1185394493499.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <27112652.1185394493499.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330707260229j531da7a3uc03368bc3b28019f@mail.gmail.com>

In the "Advanced" section of Preferences, under the Update tab. You
can select what to check for updates on, and whether or not to get
them auto-installed.

On 7/25/07, R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>
> How do you get an update pushed down to you?
>
> Thanks
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
> >Sent: Jul 25, 2007 3:11 PM
> >To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> >Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
> >
> >On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> It installed fine for me.
> >> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
> >> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)
> >
> >I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.
> >
> >--
> >Wolfger
> >http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
> >http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
> >AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> >Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> >Skype: wolfger88
> >_______________________________________________
> >mdlug mailing list
> >mdlug at mdlug.org
> >http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From GregWojtak at quickenloans.com  Thu Jul 26 07:36:38 2007
From: GregWojtak at quickenloans.com (Wojtak, Greg)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:36:38 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330707260229j531da7a3uc03368bc3b28019f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C2CDFF86.3F71E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>

Automatic updates?  That seems so... Windows-ish. ;-P


On 7/26/07 5:29 AM, "Wolfger" <wolfger at gmail.com> wrote:

> In the "Advanced" section of Preferences, under the Update tab. You
> can select what to check for updates on, and whether or not to get
> them auto-installed.
> 
> On 7/25/07, R. Kannan <rkannan at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>> 
>> How do you get an update pushed down to you?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Wolfger <wolfger at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Jul 25, 2007 3:11 PM
>>> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
>>> 
>>> On 7/25/07, Jeff Hanson <jhansonxi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> It installed fine for me.
>>>> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20061201
>>>> Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Ubuntu-feisty)
>>> 
>>> I just got a flashblock update pushed down to me today. Still works.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Wolfger
>>> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
>>> http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
>>> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
>>> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
>>> Skype: wolfger88
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mdlug mailing list
>>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________________
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> mdlug mailing list
>> mdlug at mdlug.org
>> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>> 
> 


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 10:36:50 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:36:50 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
In-Reply-To: <C2CDFF86.3F71E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
References: <3b00b3330707260229j531da7a3uc03368bc3b28019f@mail.gmail.com>
	<C2CDFF86.3F71E%GregWojtak@quickenloans.com>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707260736g42c15e3fy36d1f5e5f7608be2@mail.gmail.com>

Flashblock has been updated in the last 24 hours, you may want to
check and make sure you have the latest version.

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 12:03:39 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:03:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TigerDirect admins are clueless
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jeff Hanson,

In an effort to improve security, we have eliminated certain
previously allowed characters for use in the creation of a password.
(Example: > < @ ')

Our records indicated that one or more of these characters were used
in your password. We have since reset your password.

To retrieve your new password, simply click the link below and enter
your email address ( jhansonxi at gmail.com ). We will immediately send
you your new password. You may then update your password in the "My
Account" page after logging in.

Link to retrieve your new password:
https://www.tigerdirect.com/cgisec/send_password.asp

-------------------
Guess what they're running:
http://searchdns.netcraft.com/?host=tigerdirect.com


From mdlug2 at arb.net  Thu Jul 26 12:13:03 2007
From: mdlug2 at arb.net (Dave)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:13:03 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TigerDirect admins are clueless
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46A8C80F.6040402@arb.net>

What a joke.... so, you have to wounder if they keep your password in a 
flat file for "Security" reasons and their latest SQL code chokes on 
special characters...  or they routinely crack their customer's passwords...

Humm, all this on a 7 year old insecure OS.

-dave

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> Dear Jeff Hanson,
>
> In an effort to improve security, we have eliminated certain
> previously allowed characters for use in the creation of a password.
> (Example: > < @ ')
>
> Our records indicated that one or more of these characters were used
> in your password. We have since reset your password.
>
> To retrieve your new password, simply click the link below and enter
> your email address ( jhansonxi at gmail.com ). We will immediately send
> you your new password. You may then update your password in the "My
> Account" page after logging in.
>
> Link to retrieve your new password:
> https://www.tigerdirect.com/cgisec/send_password.asp
>
> -------------------
> Guess what they're running:
> http://searchdns.netcraft.com/?host=tigerdirect.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>   



From danno at umich.edu  Thu Jul 26 12:18:51 2007
From: danno at umich.edu (Dan Pritts)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:18:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TigerDirect admins are clueless
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070726161851.GA19118@maniac.deathstar.org>

not their admins, their developers.

let's not fix our tangled mess of crappy code to prevent perl
metacharacters from causing a problem; let's just do a bandaid to
prevent people from using them in their passwords.  


On Thu, Jul 26, 2007 at 12:03:39PM -0400, Jeff Hanson wrote:
> Dear Jeff Hanson,
> 
> In an effort to improve security, we have eliminated certain
> previously allowed characters for use in the creation of a password.
> (Example: > < @ ')
> 
> Our records indicated that one or more of these characters were used
> in your password. We have since reset your password.
> 
> To retrieve your new password, simply click the link below and enter
> your email address ( jhansonxi at gmail.com ). We will immediately send
> you your new password. You may then update your password in the "My
> Account" page after logging in.
> 
> Link to retrieve your new password:
> https://www.tigerdirect.com/cgisec/send_password.asp
> 
> -------------------
> Guess what they're running:
> http://searchdns.netcraft.com/?host=tigerdirect.com
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

danno
--
dan pritts
danno at umich.edu
734-929-9770


From cvweiss at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 12:42:10 2007
From: cvweiss at gmail.com (Clinton V. Weiss)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:42:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] TigerDirect admins are clueless
In-Reply-To: <20070726161851.GA19118@maniac.deathstar.org>
References: <b02c40e90707260903w5c351eabt3358d8a267b70233@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070726161851.GA19118@maniac.deathstar.org>
Message-ID: <f0e9fe590707260942j2d51749ya1fadcc7a8a81591@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/07, Dan Pritts <danno at umich.edu> wrote:
> not their admins, their developers.
>
> let's not fix our tangled mess of crappy code to prevent perl
> metacharacters from causing a problem; let's just do a bandaid to
> prevent people from using them in their passwords.

-- lazy developer --
OK!  sounds good to me!

now where's my mountain dew?
-- /lazy developer

-- 
Clinton V. Weiss
cvweiss at gmail.com


From mrorourke at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 26 17:46:26 2007
From: mrorourke at earthlink.net (Michael ORourke)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:46:26 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net><000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
	<b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>

Good suggestions... thanks to everyone that replied.

I don't want the hassle of roll-your-own distribution, or something I need 
to compile on the box.  Just something I can install easily and that just 
"works".  The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 512MB and a 
20GB hard drive.
So far, I'm pretty happy with Puppy Linux installed to the hard drive. 
Which looks like this is going to be a good solution.

Thanks,
Mike

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation


> On 7/23/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
>> hardware?
>
> Stuff I've used by size/features:
> Xubuntu
> Puppy www.puppylinux.com
> DeLi delili.lens.hl-users.com
>
> There are lots of other Ubuntu-based distros with various system 
> requirements:
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ubuntu-based_distributions
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.14/912 - Release Date: 7/22/2007 
> 7:02 PM
>
> 



From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Jul 26 18:25:31 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:25:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net><000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>	<b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
	<001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <46A91F5B.4090006@comcast.net>

Michael ORourke wrote:
> Good suggestions... thanks to everyone that replied.
>
> I don't want the hassle of roll-your-own distribution, or something I need 
> to compile on the box.  Just something I can install easily and that just 
> "works".  The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 512MB and a 
> 20GB hard drive.
> So far, I'm pretty happy with Puppy Linux installed to the hard drive. 
> Which looks like this is going to be a good solution.
>   

I'm running SuSE 9.2 on a 500mhz with 320ram.  That's plenty of machine
for most distros.  I run full KDE and the works. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From rkannan at peoplepc.com  Thu Jul 26 19:36:00 2007
From: rkannan at peoplepc.com (R. Kannan)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:36:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
Message-ID: <30782569.1185492960487.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


Tried installing again. Exact same error at the exact same line of javascript code. Googling, I found the same error message cited by others but could not find any solutions :-(
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Clinton V. Weiss" <cvweiss at gmail.com>
>Sent: Jul 26, 2007 10:36 AM
>To: MDLUG's Main discussion list <mdlug at mdlug.org>
>Subject: Re: [mdlug] flashblock fails to install with firefox 2.0.0
>
>Flashblock has been updated in the last 24 hours, you may want to
>check and make sure you have the latest version.
>
>-- 
>Clinton V. Weiss
>cvweiss at gmail.com
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug mailing list
>mdlug at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 19:57:58 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:57:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<000601c7cd48$b47b0910$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
	<b02c40e90707231045q346e29d3vac5a07d712b9568a@mail.gmail.com>
	<001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707261657k2e1d6a9cwc2c83601965b2208@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/26/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 512MB and a 20GB hard drive.

I've installed Xubuntu on K6-2 350MHz systems with 128MB RAM and 6GB
drives, DeLi and Puppy on a Cyrix 166MHz w/32MB, Ubuntu on HP Pavilion
600MHz Celeron 256MB systems.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Jul 27 08:45:53 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:45:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33E8A@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

512MB is about enough for anything a basic desktop would want to do.
It's tight for video editing and such, but it can be done (I've done 
it.)

> 
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.

> From: mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-bounces at mdlug.org]On Behalf
> Of Michael ORourke
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 5:46 PM
> To: MDLUG's Main discussion list
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
> 
> 
> Good suggestions... thanks to everyone that replied.
> 
> I don't want the hassle of roll-your-own distribution, or 
> something I need 
> to compile on the box.  Just something I can install easily 
> and that just 
> "works".  The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 
> 512MB and a 
> 20GB hard drive.
> So far, I'm pretty happy with Puppy Linux installed to the 
> hard drive. 
> Which looks like this is going to be a good solution.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jeff Hanson" <jhansonxi at gmail.com>
> To: "MDLUG's Main discussion list" <mdlug at mdlug.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 1:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
> 
> 
> > On 7/23/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Any suggestions on a lightweight Linux distribution to use on older
> >> hardware?
> >
> > Stuff I've used by size/features:
> > Xubuntu
> > Puppy www.puppylinux.com
> > DeLi delili.lens.hl-users.com
> >
> > There are lots of other Ubuntu-based distros with various system 
> > requirements:
> > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ubuntu-based_distributions
> > _______________________________________________
> > mdlug mailing list
> > mdlug at mdlug.org
> > http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.14/912 - Release 
> Date: 7/22/2007 
> > 7:02 PM
> >
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
> 
>


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Jul 27 09:19:00 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:19:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] MDLUG usage reminder
Message-ID: <46A9F0C4.mailOB31WKD14@freehold.wwnet.com>

This is the monthly reminder of
     mdlug List Guidelines.
Please send comments to eaglecoach at wwnet.com
Meetings are monthly (http://www.mdlug.org/meetings/meetings.html).

*Courtesy:*
Do unto others what you would have them do unto you in their place.

See /Emily Postnews/ (http://www.templetons.com/brad/emily.html) and
  /Netiquette Guidelines/ (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html) for details.

If you find something objectionable or off-topic, please send a courteous
  note offlist to the author (and/or postmaster at mdlug.org) rather than list.
  (The rule is simple, do not be easily annoyed or annoying.)

Please post messages in plain text (rather than html or rich text).
  See http://expita.com/nomime.html for instructions for your browser.

Please remove References: field when starting a new subject.

Please trim your replies so that you only quote the parts you are are
  replying to, rather than the entire original message , and
  prefix with '>'. (Most mail clients do this part automatically.)

Please do not cross-post, and if you feel you must, please direct
  discussion to one list with a reply-to; field

*Lists:*
 mdlug-admin    mdlug administration

 mdlug-newbie   questions/answers with explanation of concepts
                assume the questioner was unaware of the
                man/info/... pages
                initial configuration of ???

 mdlug          ANNOUNCE: announcements only, no discussion

 mdlug          questions/answers using jargon
                assume the questioner has read the man/info/... pages
                technical (e.g. howto, perl scripts)

 mdlug-discuss  politics
                Microsoft-bashing
                my disto can beat up your distro, and other flames
                anything else

*Filtering and Security*
If you lack time or interest to follow some of the topics, ask
 mdlug-newbie for suggestions on filtering mail automatically.

We welcome the many who listen silently, and invite them to post when
 they wish to contribute either questions or answers.

We strip the reply to addresses from the headers of messages before putting
 them in the archives.

Likewise, our archiving software quashes email addresses in the body of
 messages, to make them difficult for spammers to harvest. However they
 will still be human readable so you might want to consider this before
 posting personal email addresses.

Have fun!


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Jul 27 11:04:32 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:04:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] [MEETING] IEEE SEMichigan: Aug 14, 2007 5:30pm
Message-ID: <20070727150432.A0A6720AB03@starfox.local>

I suspect the following evening meeting may be of interest.



  ---- Meeting Notice ----

Topic: "ODF: HOW A DIGITAL DOCUMENT FORMAT IS THREATENING A
MULTIBILLION-DOLLAR MONOPOLY (AND WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP)" 

TUESDAY AUGUST 14, 2007 5:30PM 
FAIRLANE CENTER BUILDING, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN-DEARBORN

Our invited speaker will be Dave Scholl, Technical Specialist, Ford Research. 

Agenda: 
5:30pm pizza and networking
6:30pm presentation

Registration: 
New registration page is open at
https://www.ieeeemcs.org/semi/regemcmeet.asp?EventID=081407
Managers, engineers, technical professionals, engineering students, IEEE
members and their guests are invited. The Chapter Presentation is a FREE event.
IEEE Non-Members Welcome. 

Abstract: 
Under the leadership of Bill Gates, Microsoft has become one of the most
profitable companies in the history of the world. There are many keystones to
Microsoft's continuing lock-in as a convicted (yet untrammeled) monopolist in
the personal-computer software market. One of the most important of these
keystones, and one which is a matter of personal experience for many of us, is
their control over access to the information we store in digital documents.
Microsoft Word, by default, stores documents in a proprietary format which can
only be read reliably by other copies of the same version of Word. Therefore,
almost everyone who works in any kind of office needs to purchase an up-to-date
copy of Microsoft Word in order to be able to access thesedocuments. 

Recently, two powerful communities have joined to promote an alternative
digital document format known as Open Document Format (ODF), which is a
published open standard, free for any programmer to implement. The first and
largest of these communities is all those who don't wish to pay Microsoft's
monopoly-inflated prices. The Chinese government, on behalf of the Chinese
business community, is a notable member of this group. The second such community
is government archivists, who have a statutory responsibility to maintain
collections of documents for public access over decades. This group is smaller
than the first, but their voices are heard by lawmakers. They also find the
default Microsoft document format unacceptable. Imperfect conversions to new
formats can change the documents in unpredictable ways, and maintaining
computers running older versions of Word is neither practical nor legal. In many
countries, arranging a government archive in such a way that citizens are
required to make a purchase from Microsoft before viewing public records is
highly objectionable, not to mention illegal. More objectionable yet is the
concept of the citizens of a sovereign government being unable to view their own
government's electronic documents without licensing software patents held by
Microsoft, a foreign corporation. 

Bio: 
Dave Scholl holds a BA in Physics from Rice University, and an MA in Chemistry
from Stanford University. Mr. Scholl worked in Thin-film physics at IBM Almaden
Research Laboratory, and since 1991 has been at Ford Scientific Research Surface
physics, nanotribology, combustion diagnostics, sound quality, and vehicle
emissions. He has been a Linux user since Red Hat 4.2, a decade ago. 

See the poster and more info on the Chapter web site at
http://ewh.ieee.org/r4/se_michigan/ems/20070814_august_meeting.html

Pizza provided by Vector CAN-Tech. 

This meeting is presented by the IEEE ENGINEERING MANAGEMENT SOCIETY, the IEEE
EMC SOCIETY, the IEEE VEHICULAR TECHNOLOGY SOCIETY, and the IEEE COMPUTER
SOCIETY Southeastern Michigan Chapters. Opinions expressed by the presenters
are their own and not necessarily those of IEEE.
  ---- Meeting Notice ----


-- 
Dr B


From z_mikowski at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 27 23:04:27 2007
From: z_mikowski at yahoo.com (Michael S. Mikowski)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:04:27 -0700
Subject: [mdlug] Lightweight desktop distribution recommendation
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707261657k2e1d6a9cwc2c83601965b2208@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070723120312.0e267f60.akalten@comcast.net>
	<001901c7cfce$6ab41d70$6401a8c0@AMD2000>
	<b02c40e90707261657k2e1d6a9cwc2c83601965b2208@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200707272004.27732.z_mikowski@yahoo.com>

On Thursday 26 July 2007, Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On 7/26/07, Michael ORourke <mrorourke at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > The hardware is a 900MHz Celeron mini-desktop with 512MB and a 20GB
> > hard drive.
>
> I've installed Xubuntu on K6-2 350MHz systems with 128MB RAM and 6GB
> drives, DeLi and Puppy on a Cyrix 166MHz w/32MB, Ubuntu on HP
> Pavilion 600MHz Celeron 256MB systems.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug

This may be obvious, but...

Be careful running kde or gnome apps on a desktop like xfce.  Testing 
has shown that you may actually be better off using the desktop of your 
applications, since you will be pulling in tons of libs anyway.  You 
can actually use more memory with Xfce + konsole + konqueror + amarok 
for example, than kde + konsole + konqueror +amarok.

http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html

Whatever you think about the numbers, the concepts seem solid.

Cheers,

Mike

-- 
Mike
www.dynaorg.com


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Sat Jul 28 13:41:47 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:41:47 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] How not to do off-site backup
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707281041q30f0c3e5k4a1c59a1ae46fd2c@mail.gmail.com>

http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2007/07/26/800000-stolen-social-security-numbers-a-22-year-old-scapegoat/

July 26, 2007
800,000 stolen social security numbers: a 22-year-old scapegoat?
By David Cassel

800,000 stolen social security numbers - a 22-year-old scapegoatA
22-year-old intern said today he's the "scapegoat" for the loss of
over 800,000 social security numbers.

A backup tape was stolen from his car last month containing at least
770,000 social security numbers (with the corresponding names) for
Ohio taxpayers. It also contained the social security numbers for
another 64,000 state employees. Today the intern issued a statement
with his side of the story.

Four months ago 22-year-old Jared Ilovar ? who's studying computers at
DeVry University ? started an internship with the state of Ohio. He
said he'd sometimes take home a data tape to ensure there was an
off-site version of the data. "The extent of my instructions on what
to do after I removed the tapes from the tape drive and took the tapes
out of the building was, 'bring these back tomorrow.'"


From driveray at ameritech.net  Sat Jul 28 19:23:25 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:23:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] President's mail bag [Fwd: Wanted: Free Software resources
 for all families and schools]
Message-ID: <46ABCFED.4050402@ameritech.net>

Looks like it's worth passing on.
Ray
> Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:05:24 +0200 (CEST)
> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:05:24 +0200
> From: Marco Fioretti <marco at digifreedom.net>
> To: president at mdlug.org
> Subject: Wanted: Free Software resources for all families and schools
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> I am a freelance writer specialized in FOSS topics, Contributing
> editor of Linux Journal
> (http://www.linuxjournal.com/xstatic/corporate/staff/Marco) and member
> of the OpenDocument Fellowship.
> 
> I'd like to let you know about a new personal initiative of mine,
> which will hopefully make lots of parents and teachers understand why
> they cannot ignore FOSS and Free Culture anymore in the interest of
> their own children.
> 
> I am going to publish on the Digifreedom website:
> 
> * a directory of Digitally Free Schools, that all parents may check
>   when choosing a new school for their children.
>   http://digifreedom.net/node/55
> 
> * one of bad public websites,     http://digifreedom.net/node/76
> 
> * one of Trashware organizations, http://digifreedom.net/node/92
> 
> * a list of examples of "Bad ICT information", that is links to
>   article from mainstream press or websites which have no clue of what
>   Free Software actually is, so all parents and other non-hackers can
>   learn to recognize them.
> 
> * forums on Digitally Free School and Digitally Free Families:
>   http://digifreedom.net/forum/30
>   where all citizens concerned about the attacks on the Digital
>   Freedom of their schools or families can work together to protect
>   it.
> 
> All these are and will always remain absolutely free services to the
> whole community: I hope to make of these databases something that all
> parents and teachers, especially those who know nothing or very little
> about software, will be able to use to do the right choices in the
> best interest of their children's education and of their own civil
> rights.
> 
> The reason why I am writing is only to let your LUG know that I always
> welcome any submission to any of those databases (the more the better),
> either through the forums above or via direct email.
> 
> Obviously, should you find it appropriate, you are also welcome to
> spread the word about the databases, forums and my Open Letter to
> Mothers about Software (http://digifreedom.net/node/74) as much as you
> wish, *especially* outside Free Software circles. Teachers, parents
> associations, churches, senior citizens clubs, any youth organization,
> whatever: the more non-programmers we can reach with this approach,
> the better it would be for Free Standards and Software.
> 
> Thank you in advance for your time! Any general feedback is also
> welcome!
> 
>         Best Regards,
> 
>         Marco Fioretti



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 13:22:30 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:22:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>

Although this covers Windows drivers, I mention it here for several reasons:

* Many of us are forced to use possibly-affected Windows PCs in the
workplace or at home.
* The Realtek-supplied Linux driver (if there IS one) may be affected.
* The corrupted data may wind up on our Linux machines.
* It may affect torrent transfers for all of us.

"Realtek network driver silently corrupts data"
<http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=639>

Which also begs the question, "How did this driver get
WHQL-certified?"  It shows real sloppiness on the part of MS and
Realtek (I admit, no surprises there).

-- Mikey


From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 14:21:30 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:21:30 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b67fb0380707301121j1beeb283u3a243b4dcb5ab41d@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/30/07, Michael Rudas wrote:

> Which also begs the question, "How did this driver get
> WHQL-certified?"  It shows real sloppiness on the part of MS and
> Realtek (I admit, no surprises there).

Oops... s/begs the question/raises the question... (tnx Carl).

First day with my new brain-- it takes a while for the neurons to knit.

-- Mikey


From painbank at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 15:12:14 2007
From: painbank at gmail.com (Rich Elswick)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:12:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] FOSS web dev software for windows
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707242336w79370700nf612e77d270d0b2b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46A5F2A5.4020605@starline-ent.com> <46A5F41D.50609@umich.edu>
	<46A6290D.5040604@comcast.net>
	<b67fb0380707242336w79370700nf612e77d270d0b2b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cafacd830707301212n76494d9asdb2b91f9b61b0864@mail.gmail.com>

check out FasterFox plugin Extension for Firefox.

Rich


On 7/25/07, Michael Rudas <audiotech50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/24/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
> > Mark Montague wrote:
> > >
> > > Nvu is based on Mozilla, and so runs on most of the same platforms
> that
> > > Firefox does.
> > >
> > Nvu has some stability issues.  Most of my sessions end in a crash, or
> > rather a program lock.  And like any such program it has it's ideas as
> > to what works and what does, and they don't always work.  You will need
> > to edit the HTML on anything other than the simplest pages.
>
> I have not had stability problems with Nvu-- you may have a PC
> hardware or OS problem.  Yes, it's a basic editor, but is DOES
> suppport CSS and other standards better than FrontPage.
>
> One might also consider the SeaMonkey suite-- as of v1.1.3, most of
> Nvu's features have been back-ported to Composer, and it may be more
> stable than Nvu itself, which seems stuck at v1.0
>
> -- Mikey
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug mailing list
> mdlug at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug
>



-- 
Rich Elswick
http://www.moyaentertainment.com

<a
href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast"><img src="
http://feeds.feedburner.com/scacast.gif" style="border:0" alt="The Pain Bank
- SCA and WMA"/></a>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug/attachments/20070730/d2233598/attachment-0001.html>

From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Jul 30 21:03:31 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:03:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380707301121j1beeb283u3a243b4dcb5ab41d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380707301121j1beeb283u3a243b4dcb5ab41d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46AE8A63.7010108@ameritech.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> On 7/30/07, Michael Rudas wrote:
> 
>> Which also begs the question, "How did this driver get
>> WHQL-certified?"  It shows real sloppiness on the part of MS and
>> Realtek (I admit, no surprises there).
> 
> Oops... s/begs the question/raises the question... (tnx Carl).
> 
> First day with my new brain-- it takes a while for the neurons to knit.
> 
> -- Mikey

This also raises the question, at least among the ignorant like me, why
did the error detecting/ correcting/ portion of the TCP stack, the crc -
retry algorithms, etc, allow this? Sheer number of errors? Where the
algorithms just over whelmed? Would a faster CPU make a difference? Is
it just a matter that in a large enough population of bad packets some
will, by chance, have the same crc check sum as the original?

Wondering
Raymond McLaughlin


From mathew.enders at prodigy.net  Tue Jul 31 11:02:24 2007
From: mathew.enders at prodigy.net (Mathew Enders)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:02:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <46AE8A63.7010108@ameritech.net>
References: <b67fb0380707301022w4eeabc4ev11456178a7795ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<b67fb0380707301121j1beeb283u3a243b4dcb5ab41d@mail.gmail.com>
	<46AE8A63.7010108@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>

On Mon, 2007-07-30 at 21:03 -0400, Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Michael Rudas wrote:
> > On 7/30/07, Michael Rudas wrote:
> > 
> >> Which also begs the question, "How did this driver get
> >> WHQL-certified?"  It shows real sloppiness on the part of MS and
> >> Realtek (I admit, no surprises there).
> > 
> > Oops... s/begs the question/raises the question... (tnx Carl).
> > 
> > First day with my new brain-- it takes a while for the neurons to knit.
> > 
> > -- Mikey
> 
> This also raises the question, at least among the ignorant like me, why
> did the error detecting/ correcting/ portion of the TCP stack, the crc -
> retry algorithms, etc, allow this? Sheer number of errors? Where the
> algorithms just over whelmed? Would a faster CPU make a difference? Is
> it just a matter that in a large enough population of bad packets some
> will, by chance, have the same crc check sum as the original?
> 

I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Jul 31 11:23:49 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:23:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Mathew Enders

> I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
> corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
> TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.

 With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
the receiver can do to detect that.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                 (313) 227-2317

 The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable
  operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying
          to take over the world.  - Drakmere
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From jhansonxi at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 13:31:54 2007
From: jhansonxi at gmail.com (Jeff Hanson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:31:54 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/31/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > From: Mathew Enders
>
> > I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
> > corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
> > TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.
>
>  With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
> for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
> if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
> the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
> the receiver can do to detect that.

Maybe I'm missing something but logical deduction seems to conclude
that this is an improvement:

1.  It's a Windows-only issue.
2.  The corruption could make transferred applications inoperable.
3.  The data from Windows PCs includes a much higher percentage of
malware than non-Windows PCs.
4.  Corruption of transferred applications from the affected systems
would cause a reduction of malware in general.

Logical?


From bobdion at starline-ent.com  Tue Jul 31 14:27:58 2007
From: bobdion at starline-ent.com (bob dion)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:27:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>

Jeff Hanson wrote:
> On 7/31/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>>> From: Mathew Enders
>>> I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
>>> corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
>>> TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.
>>  With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
>> for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
>> if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
>> the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
>> the receiver can do to detect that.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something but logical deduction seems to conclude
> that this is an improvement:
> 
> 1.  It's a Windows-only issue.
> 2.  The corruption could make transferred applications inoperable.
> 3.  The data from Windows PCs includes a much higher percentage of
> malware than non-Windows PCs.
> 4.  Corruption of transferred applications from the affected systems
> would cause a reduction of malware in general.
> 
> Logical?

One could only hope. Unfortunately, the corruption only seem to happened 
with large 1-2+ gig files.

BD


From driveray at ameritech.net  Tue Jul 31 15:32:39 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:32:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <46AF8E57.8060007@ameritech.net>

bob dion wrote:
> Jeff Hanson wrote:
>> On 7/31/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
>>>> From: Mathew Enders
>>>> I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
>>>> corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
>>>> TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.
>>>  With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
>>> for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
>>> if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
>>> the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
>>> the receiver can do to detect that.
>> Maybe I'm missing something but logical deduction seems to conclude
>> that this is an improvement:
>>
>> 1.  It's a Windows-only issue.
>> 2.  The corruption could make transferred applications inoperable.
>> 3.  The data from Windows PCs includes a much higher percentage of
>> malware than non-Windows PCs.
>> 4.  Corruption of transferred applications from the affected systems
>> would cause a reduction of malware in general.
>>
>> Logical?
> 
> One could only hope. Unfortunately, the corruption only seem to happened 
> with large 1-2+ gig files.
> 
> BD

Also it seems that the corruption could, theoretically, affect any large
file that passed one hop over an affected windows machine along its
network path.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Tue Jul 31 21:41:45 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:41:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0707312141110.4577@rich.rrclark.net>

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, Jeff Hanson wrote:

> On 7/31/07, Ingles, Raymond <Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com> wrote:
> > > From: Mathew Enders
> >
> > > I think that after reading it that the data inside the packets was
> > > corrupted not the packets themselves and that is how it passed the
> > > TCP/IP check.  Some else asked the same question in the comments.
> >
> >  With TCP connections, the data has a checksum, too. But it's possible
> > for certain patterns of data corruption to still pass the check. And
> > if the driver at the sending end corrupts the data (reading it in from
> > the sending application) before it puts it on the wire, there's nothing
> > the receiver can do to detect that.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something but logical deduction seems to conclude
> that this is an improvement:
> 
> 1.  It's a Windows-only issue.
> 2.  The corruption could make transferred applications inoperable.
> 3.  The data from Windows PCs includes a much higher percentage of
> malware than non-Windows PCs.
> 4.  Corruption of transferred applications from the affected systems
> would cause a reduction of malware in general.

5.  PROFIT!!

> Logical?

Sort of, but there are some rather interesting leaps made in your theory.


From rrclark at rrclark.net  Tue Jul 31 21:42:48 2007
From: rrclark at rrclark.net (Rich Clark <rrclark@rrclark.net>)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:42:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug] Realtek silent data corruption
In-Reply-To: <46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>
References: <1185894144.5935.3.camel@daddymobile>
	<41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33EA7@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<b02c40e90707311031y2b01ad21q66dc0aff9286c9d5@mail.gmail.com>
	<46AF7F2E.2@starline-ent.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.0.81.0707312142050.4577@rich.rrclark.net>

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, bob dion wrote:

> One could only hope. Unfortunately, the corruption only seem to happened 
> with large 1-2+ gig files.

I thought that was routine behavior on any MS Windows filesystem?


