From argie4444 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  8 09:37:51 2009
From: argie4444 at yahoo.com (Ron Green)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 06:37:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
Message-ID: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>





I have two hard drives.

On the First Drive I have the Vista installed on the first
partition, and the second partition is NTSF formatted for data storage only.

My second drive is formatted in NTFS has only one partition,
and is 300GB.? ?I?d like to install UBUNTU on the 300GB drive,
and use the remainder of the drive for backup storage of NTFS files.? I?d like to setup a dual boot configuration.

1.?????
How do I go about doing this?

2.?????
How large should I make the UBUNTU partition?? 

3.?????
Once I install the UBUNTU, can I keep the other
partition in the NTSF format?

When I load the UBUNTU live CD, and try to install, the
screen says there is no operating system on this computer, and only shows the
300GB drive.? Then it asks about un-mounting
the disk.? I don?t exactly know what this
means.? Thanks!

-Newbie




      
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From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov  8 18:55:49 2009
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:55:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AF75A85.2040003@bellsouth.net>

Ron,

[Ubuntu users, as I am more familiar with SuSE, please amend, correct,
  or extend the following.]

> I have two hard drives.

Good choice.
At this time,
hard drives are cheap compared to the management effort they save.

> On the First Drive I have the Vista installed on the first partition,

Be aware that Microsoft XP (and I assume Vista)
has reportedly scrambled the partition table on both disks
(i.e. suicided) upon booting on a system with a second operating system.

On my home dual-boot box,
I resolve this by nominally leaving the 1st disk out
of the boot order in the bios settings.
To boot the first disk, I bring up the bios settings,
disable the 2nd disk, and add the first disk to the boot order.
To boot the second disk,
I enable and add the second disk to the boot order,
and for safety remove the first disk from the boot order.
SuSE linux on the 2nd disk, can access all partitions on both disks.
Microsoft XP on the 1st disk, cannot see the 2nd disk.
This method has so far prevented a repeat suffering.

> and the second partition is NTSF formatted for data storage only. 

> My second drive is formatted in NTFS has only one partition,
> and is 300GB.

NTFS is somewhat inefficient and does not support all the permissions
features available from Ubuntu.
The unix permission system provides access separation,
without requiring cooperation from executables (a.k.a. applications).
Consequently Microsoft supported viruses, Windows tolerated worms,
and other malware
are generally unable to propagate past unix permissions.

I suggest reformatting the 2nd drive into four ext3 partitions.
ext3 is a journaling (limited automatic backups) filesystem,
that is very stable and robust.
You might also consider formatting reiserfs,
which is faster on most hardware,
but has historically had intermittent failure on some hardware.
(I haven't heard of any reiserfs hardware issues in the last two years.)
You might also consider formatting xfs,
which is also generally faster than ext3, and nearly as stable.
If in doubt, stick with ext3.

> I?d like to install UBUNTU on the 300GB drive,
> and use the remainder of the drive for backup storage of NTFS files.

You will hear many diverse opinions regarding partitioning,
each with strengths and weaknesses.

I like to use as many real partitions as the bios supports.
This is at least 4, but 8, 32, have become common.
If you don't know, use 4.

I suggest avoiding extended partitions.
Extended partitions are offsets within the real partitions.
Extended partition pointers do not get the redundant copies
(error protection) that real partitions do.
Consequently in a few years,
when the data on the drives is valuable,
and you've fallen behind in your backups,
a bad sector that takes out a real partition may take out
all the extended partitions on that real partition as well.

> I?d like to setup a dual boot configuration. 
> How do I go about doing this?

I've not installed ubuntu,
but having installed CentOS, SuSE, RedHat, and others,
I'm confident the ubuntu installer is similar.

When you boot from the ubuntu installation disk,
I expect it will probe (examine and test) your host.
It should find both drives,
note the partitioning of both,
note that the first is bootable,
and note that the first has a boot loader
(i.e. apparent operating system).

I then expect the ubuntu installation disk
to propose a few configurations and ask you
to choose one to use or edit.

The default choice will likely be to format both disks,
install ubuntu in one of four partitions on the first disk,
install /home in one of four partitions on the second disk.
This is not a dual boot system, so do not choose this.

The second choice is likely to leave both disks unformatted,
install ubuntu in one of the two partitions on the second disk,
install /home in the second of the two partitions on the second disk.
This is a dual boot system, but retaining NTFS,
lacks full permissions support, so do not choose this.

A third choice may be to leave the first disk unformatted,
format the second disk,
install ubuntu in the first of four partitions on the second disk,
install /home in the second of four partitions on the second disk.
This is a dual boot system, and should meet your specifications.

If the third (or fourth, or ...) choice is not as above,
ubuntu should offer you an opportunity to edit its suggestions,
in which case, choose to leave the first disk unformatted,
format the second drive as 4 ext3(?) partitions,
choose / as the mount point for the 1st partition,
choose /home as the mount point for the 2nd partition,
choose /extra (or /local or /backup or ...) as the 3rd partition,
choose /local (or something else) as the 4th partition,

Like most installers,
I assume ubuntu will collect all the settings first,
offer to let you edit any,
and require approval before actually writing to the drive.

> How large should I make the UBUNTU partition?

Without knowing exactly how you will be using the computer,
I suggest splitting the partitions evenly (i.e. 4 x 75G = 300G).

> Once I install the UBUNTU, can I keep the other
> partition in the NTSF format?

Yes.  I suggest keeping no more than 1 partition NTFS,
and avoid running any executables from NTFS.
Though the ubuntu installer, may not have it,
look for a flag/option/checkbox titled "noexec", for the NTFS partition,
to prevent execution of binaries from it.

> When I load the UBUNTU live CD, and try to install,
> the screen says there is no operating system on this computer,
> ...

More familiar with SuSE, I believe the live CD serves many purposes.
One is to boot Ubuntu, from a file, from a virtual disk,
or from a drive not in the bios boot order.
I believe the screen is reporting that it detected no pre-existing
Ubuntu installation that it could boot.

> Then it asks about un-mounting the disk.

Unless you are knowledgeable and careful, writing, partitioning,
reformatting a disk in use (mounted) is risky.
A mounted disk is like a running car engine,
and should be umounted like stopping the car engine,
before installation.

> and only shows the 300GB drive.

I suspect Ubuntu is offering as default, the "third choice" above.
You will probably have to edit its suggestion to select 4 partitions,
and if you wish, leave one as ntfs.
In the editor, you will likely see the first disk,
which I suggest you leave unaltered.

Hopefully helpful,
--
Bob



From robert.citek at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 00:10:36 2009
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 00:10:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ron,

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Ron Green <argie4444 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I?d like to setup a dual boot configuration.

Easy enough to do.  In fact, I have most of my machines configured to
mutli-boot.  But despite that, I am curious to know why you want to
dual boot?  Creating a dual- or multi-boot is convenient, but there
are some serious risks which should not be taken lightly.  For
example, you run the risk of inadvertently wiping whatever is
installed on your harddrive or altering the drive configuration in
such a way that prevents Windows from booting.  While these risks are
slight, they are very real and possible.

And for the casual user there are some excellent, safer alternatives,
such as installing using wubi or installing in a virtual machine or
installing on an external drive.  Unless you are very experienced with
linux and have exotic needs for a multi-boot system, I'd strongly
recommend one of these other installation methods.

> When I load the UBUNTU live CD, and try to install, the screen says there is no operating system on this computer, and only shows the 300GB drive.? Then it asks about un-mounting the disk.? I don?t exactly know what this means.? Thanks!

Since you are not familiar with mounting/unmounting, then you may not
want to dual boot and instead should go with another method.  If your
machine has enough horsepower, I'd highly recommend using
VirtualBox[1] and installing Ubuntu or any other linux distro that
way.  Baring that, I would explore wubi[2].  If wubi won't work for
you, then I would explore installing to an external drive, an entire
drive dedicated to Ubuntu.  In each of those cases you avoid the whole
issue of adjusting your existing Windows installation, yet you'll have
a full-featured Ubuntu linux system just like you would had you
created a dual-boot.

If you still want to proceed with creating a dual-boot system, then
prepare yourself first by becoming extremely familiar with how to do a
full backup and recovery of your Windows system.

Regardless of which way you go, be sure to let us know how things work out.

[1] http://www.virtualbox.org/
[2] http://wubi-installer.org/

Regards,
- Robert


From tesral at wowway.com  Mon Nov  9 07:20:56 2009
From: tesral at wowway.com (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 07:20:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AF80928.2070906@wowway.com>

Robert Citek wrote:
>
> And for the casual user there are some excellent, safer alternatives,
> such as installing using wubi or installing in a virtual machine or
> installing on an external drive.  Unless you are very experienced with
> linux and have exotic needs for a multi-boot system, I'd strongly
> recommend one of these other installation methods.
>   

I found dual boot to be a waste of a partition. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? -Mohandas K. Gandhi  
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
Metro Detroit Linux Users Group http://www.mdlug.org



From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Mon Nov  9 09:38:39 2009
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:38:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AF8296F.7020402@bellsouth.net>

Ron, Robert, Gary,

> Easy enough to do.  In fact, I have most of my machines configured to
> mutli-boot.  ...
> And for the casual user there are some excellent, safer alternatives,
> such as installing using wubi or installing in a virtual machine or
> installing on an external drive.

Be aware that wubi and virtual machines tradeoff speed for isolation.
In my experience a VMWare (and reportedly xen) slow performance ~4x.
Wubi is supposed to be better optimized for ubuntu.

You didn't state whether your second 300GB drive is internal
or external.
If your 2nd drive is already external
or if you invest in a 3rd external drive,
it can be as fast (or faster).
To prevent XP (or Vista) seeing ubuntu,
and you may find physical disconnection of an external drive,
more convenient than bios disconnection of an internal or external drive.

At work I run windows as a VMWare guest on a CentOS host.
Windows is several times slower, but functional.

> If you still want to proceed with creating a dual-boot system, then
> prepare yourself first by becoming extremely familiar with how to do a
> full backup and recovery of your Windows system.

If you are not already familiar with recovery of your Windows System,
I suggest you become familiar whether or not you create a dual-boot system.

I used to use linux to keep my Windows NT partitions clean
while linux maintained the linux partitions.
In the past, I found it easiest to restore Windows base from Windows,
and backup/restore MyDocuments and most apps from a dual-boot linux.
Currently, I use a commercial linux product which I find easier
for backup and restore of all Windows, Exchange, ...

> Regardless of which way you go, be sure to let us know how things work out.

Though there are some elements to learn,
installing (on different drives)
a dual-boot system is a good way to learn.

Hopefully helpful,
--
Bob


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 10:13:44 2009
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:13:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <4AF8296F.7020402@bellsouth.net>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AF8296F.7020402@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4145b6790911090713v77660e5bqb60472f347285f5b@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 9:38 AM,  <list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Ron, Robert, Gary,
>
>> Easy enough to do. ?In fact, I have most of my machines configured to
>> mutli-boot. ?...
>> And for the casual user there are some excellent, safer alternatives,
>> such as installing using wubi or installing in a virtual machine or
>> installing on an external drive.
>
> Be aware that wubi and virtual machines tradeoff speed for isolation.
> In my experience a VMWare (and reportedly xen) slow performance ~4x.
> Wubi is supposed to be better optimized for ubuntu.

Wubi is native speed as it is an actual installation.  From the
wikipedia page[1]:

"It is not a virtual machine, but rather, it creates a stand-alone
installation within a loopmounted device, also known as a disk image,
like Topologilinux does. It is not a Linux distribution of its own,
but rather an installer for Ubuntu."

As for virtualization, in my experience with VMWare and VirtualBox, I
get near-native performance on newer hardware (last 3 years).  But
then my setup has always been with a Linux guest on either Windows or
Linux hosts.  I have not run a Windows guest in several years, and
yes, back then, Windows as a guest was at least 4x slower than native
speeds.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubi_(Ubuntu_installer)

Regards,
- Robert


From argie4444 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  8 09:37:51 2009
From: argie4444 at yahoo.com (Ron Green)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 06:37:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
Message-ID: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>





I have two hard drives.

On the First Drive I have the Vista installed on the first
partition, and the second partition is NTSF formatted for data storage only.

My second drive is formatted in NTFS has only one partition,
and is 300GB.? ?I?d like to install UBUNTU on the 300GB drive,
and use the remainder of the drive for backup storage of NTFS files.? I?d like to setup a dual boot configuration.

1.?????
How do I go about doing this?

2.?????
How large should I make the UBUNTU partition?? 

3.?????
Once I install the UBUNTU, can I keep the other
partition in the NTSF format?

When I load the UBUNTU live CD, and try to install, the
screen says there is no operating system on this computer, and only shows the
300GB drive.? Then it asks about un-mounting
the disk.? I don?t exactly know what this
means.? Thanks!

-Newbie




      
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From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov  8 18:55:49 2009
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 18:55:49 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4AF75A85.2040003@bellsouth.net>

Ron,

[Ubuntu users, as I am more familiar with SuSE, please amend, correct,
  or extend the following.]

> I have two hard drives.

Good choice.
At this time,
hard drives are cheap compared to the management effort they save.

> On the First Drive I have the Vista installed on the first partition,

Be aware that Microsoft XP (and I assume Vista)
has reportedly scrambled the partition table on both disks
(i.e. suicided) upon booting on a system with a second operating system.

On my home dual-boot box,
I resolve this by nominally leaving the 1st disk out
of the boot order in the bios settings.
To boot the first disk, I bring up the bios settings,
disable the 2nd disk, and add the first disk to the boot order.
To boot the second disk,
I enable and add the second disk to the boot order,
and for safety remove the first disk from the boot order.
SuSE linux on the 2nd disk, can access all partitions on both disks.
Microsoft XP on the 1st disk, cannot see the 2nd disk.
This method has so far prevented a repeat suffering.

> and the second partition is NTSF formatted for data storage only. 

> My second drive is formatted in NTFS has only one partition,
> and is 300GB.

NTFS is somewhat inefficient and does not support all the permissions
features available from Ubuntu.
The unix permission system provides access separation,
without requiring cooperation from executables (a.k.a. applications).
Consequently Microsoft supported viruses, Windows tolerated worms,
and other malware
are generally unable to propagate past unix permissions.

I suggest reformatting the 2nd drive into four ext3 partitions.
ext3 is a journaling (limited automatic backups) filesystem,
that is very stable and robust.
You might also consider formatting reiserfs,
which is faster on most hardware,
but has historically had intermittent failure on some hardware.
(I haven't heard of any reiserfs hardware issues in the last two years.)
You might also consider formatting xfs,
which is also generally faster than ext3, and nearly as stable.
If in doubt, stick with ext3.

> I?d like to install UBUNTU on the 300GB drive,
> and use the remainder of the drive for backup storage of NTFS files.

You will hear many diverse opinions regarding partitioning,
each with strengths and weaknesses.

I like to use as many real partitions as the bios supports.
This is at least 4, but 8, 32, have become common.
If you don't know, use 4.

I suggest avoiding extended partitions.
Extended partitions are offsets within the real partitions.
Extended partition pointers do not get the redundant copies
(error protection) that real partitions do.
Consequently in a few years,
when the data on the drives is valuable,
and you've fallen behind in your backups,
a bad sector that takes out a real partition may take out
all the extended partitions on that real partition as well.

> I?d like to setup a dual boot configuration. 
> How do I go about doing this?

I've not installed ubuntu,
but having installed CentOS, SuSE, RedHat, and others,
I'm confident the ubuntu installer is similar.

When you boot from the ubuntu installation disk,
I expect it will probe (examine and test) your host.
It should find both drives,
note the partitioning of both,
note that the first is bootable,
and note that the first has a boot loader
(i.e. apparent operating system).

I then expect the ubuntu installation disk
to propose a few configurations and ask you
to choose one to use or edit.

The default choice will likely be to format both disks,
install ubuntu in one of four partitions on the first disk,
install /home in one of four partitions on the second disk.
This is not a dual boot system, so do not choose this.

The second choice is likely to leave both disks unformatted,
install ubuntu in one of the two partitions on the second disk,
install /home in the second of the two partitions on the second disk.
This is a dual boot system, but retaining NTFS,
lacks full permissions support, so do not choose this.

A third choice may be to leave the first disk unformatted,
format the second disk,
install ubuntu in the first of four partitions on the second disk,
install /home in the second of four partitions on the second disk.
This is a dual boot system, and should meet your specifications.

If the third (or fourth, or ...) choice is not as above,
ubuntu should offer you an opportunity to edit its suggestions,
in which case, choose to leave the first disk unformatted,
format the second drive as 4 ext3(?) partitions,
choose / as the mount point for the 1st partition,
choose /home as the mount point for the 2nd partition,
choose /extra (or /local or /backup or ...) as the 3rd partition,
choose /local (or something else) as the 4th partition,

Like most installers,
I assume ubuntu will collect all the settings first,
offer to let you edit any,
and require approval before actually writing to the drive.

> How large should I make the UBUNTU partition?

Without knowing exactly how you will be using the computer,
I suggest splitting the partitions evenly (i.e. 4 x 75G = 300G).

> Once I install the UBUNTU, can I keep the other
> partition in the NTSF format?

Yes.  I suggest keeping no more than 1 partition NTFS,
and avoid running any executables from NTFS.
Though the ubuntu installer, may not have it,
look for a flag/option/checkbox titled "noexec", for the NTFS partition,
to prevent execution of binaries from it.

> When I load the UBUNTU live CD, and try to install,
> the screen says there is no operating system on this computer,
> ...

More familiar with SuSE, I believe the live CD serves many purposes.
One is to boot Ubuntu, from a file, from a virtual disk,
or from a drive not in the bios boot order.
I believe the screen is reporting that it detected no pre-existing
Ubuntu installation that it could boot.

> Then it asks about un-mounting the disk.

Unless you are knowledgeable and careful, writing, partitioning,
reformatting a disk in use (mounted) is risky.
A mounted disk is like a running car engine,
and should be umounted like stopping the car engine,
before installation.

> and only shows the 300GB drive.

I suspect Ubuntu is offering as default, the "third choice" above.
You will probably have to edit its suggestion to select 4 partitions,
and if you wish, leave one as ntfs.
In the editor, you will likely see the first disk,
which I suggest you leave unaltered.

Hopefully helpful,
--
Bob



From robert.citek at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 00:10:36 2009
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 00:10:36 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ron,

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Ron Green <argie4444 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I?d like to setup a dual boot configuration.

Easy enough to do.  In fact, I have most of my machines configured to
mutli-boot.  But despite that, I am curious to know why you want to
dual boot?  Creating a dual- or multi-boot is convenient, but there
are some serious risks which should not be taken lightly.  For
example, you run the risk of inadvertently wiping whatever is
installed on your harddrive or altering the drive configuration in
such a way that prevents Windows from booting.  While these risks are
slight, they are very real and possible.

And for the casual user there are some excellent, safer alternatives,
such as installing using wubi or installing in a virtual machine or
installing on an external drive.  Unless you are very experienced with
linux and have exotic needs for a multi-boot system, I'd strongly
recommend one of these other installation methods.

> When I load the UBUNTU live CD, and try to install, the screen says there is no operating system on this computer, and only shows the 300GB drive.? Then it asks about un-mounting the disk.? I don?t exactly know what this means.? Thanks!

Since you are not familiar with mounting/unmounting, then you may not
want to dual boot and instead should go with another method.  If your
machine has enough horsepower, I'd highly recommend using
VirtualBox[1] and installing Ubuntu or any other linux distro that
way.  Baring that, I would explore wubi[2].  If wubi won't work for
you, then I would explore installing to an external drive, an entire
drive dedicated to Ubuntu.  In each of those cases you avoid the whole
issue of adjusting your existing Windows installation, yet you'll have
a full-featured Ubuntu linux system just like you would had you
created a dual-boot.

If you still want to proceed with creating a dual-boot system, then
prepare yourself first by becoming extremely familiar with how to do a
full backup and recovery of your Windows system.

Regardless of which way you go, be sure to let us know how things work out.

[1] http://www.virtualbox.org/
[2] http://wubi-installer.org/

Regards,
- Robert


From tesral at wowway.com  Mon Nov  9 07:20:56 2009
From: tesral at wowway.com (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 07:20:56 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AF80928.2070906@wowway.com>

Robert Citek wrote:
>
> And for the casual user there are some excellent, safer alternatives,
> such as installing using wubi or installing in a virtual machine or
> installing on an external drive.  Unless you are very experienced with
> linux and have exotic needs for a multi-boot system, I'd strongly
> recommend one of these other installation methods.
>   

I found dual boot to be a waste of a partition. 

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? -Mohandas K. Gandhi  
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
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From list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net  Mon Nov  9 09:38:39 2009
From: list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net (list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net)
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 09:38:39 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4AF8296F.7020402@bellsouth.net>

Ron, Robert, Gary,

> Easy enough to do.  In fact, I have most of my machines configured to
> mutli-boot.  ...
> And for the casual user there are some excellent, safer alternatives,
> such as installing using wubi or installing in a virtual machine or
> installing on an external drive.

Be aware that wubi and virtual machines tradeoff speed for isolation.
In my experience a VMWare (and reportedly xen) slow performance ~4x.
Wubi is supposed to be better optimized for ubuntu.

You didn't state whether your second 300GB drive is internal
or external.
If your 2nd drive is already external
or if you invest in a 3rd external drive,
it can be as fast (or faster).
To prevent XP (or Vista) seeing ubuntu,
and you may find physical disconnection of an external drive,
more convenient than bios disconnection of an internal or external drive.

At work I run windows as a VMWare guest on a CentOS host.
Windows is several times slower, but functional.

> If you still want to proceed with creating a dual-boot system, then
> prepare yourself first by becoming extremely familiar with how to do a
> full backup and recovery of your Windows system.

If you are not already familiar with recovery of your Windows System,
I suggest you become familiar whether or not you create a dual-boot system.

I used to use linux to keep my Windows NT partitions clean
while linux maintained the linux partitions.
In the past, I found it easiest to restore Windows base from Windows,
and backup/restore MyDocuments and most apps from a dual-boot linux.
Currently, I use a commercial linux product which I find easier
for backup and restore of all Windows, Exchange, ...

> Regardless of which way you go, be sure to let us know how things work out.

Though there are some elements to learn,
installing (on different drives)
a dual-boot system is a good way to learn.

Hopefully helpful,
--
Bob


From robert.citek at gmail.com  Mon Nov  9 10:13:44 2009
From: robert.citek at gmail.com (Robert Citek)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:13:44 -0500
Subject: [mdlug-newbie] Install Help
In-Reply-To: <4AF8296F.7020402@bellsouth.net>
References: <371703.25773.qm@web46210.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4145b6790911082110h5a835d63jea09c17de297f628@mail.gmail.com>
	<4AF8296F.7020402@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4145b6790911090713v77660e5bqb60472f347285f5b@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 9:38 AM,  <list1c30fe42 at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Ron, Robert, Gary,
>
>> Easy enough to do. ?In fact, I have most of my machines configured to
>> mutli-boot. ?...
>> And for the casual user there are some excellent, safer alternatives,
>> such as installing using wubi or installing in a virtual machine or
>> installing on an external drive.
>
> Be aware that wubi and virtual machines tradeoff speed for isolation.
> In my experience a VMWare (and reportedly xen) slow performance ~4x.
> Wubi is supposed to be better optimized for ubuntu.

Wubi is native speed as it is an actual installation.  From the
wikipedia page[1]:

"It is not a virtual machine, but rather, it creates a stand-alone
installation within a loopmounted device, also known as a disk image,
like Topologilinux does. It is not a Linux distribution of its own,
but rather an installer for Ubuntu."

As for virtualization, in my experience with VMWare and VirtualBox, I
get near-native performance on newer hardware (last 3 years).  But
then my setup has always been with a Linux guest on either Windows or
Linux hosts.  I have not run a Windows guest in several years, and
yes, back then, Windows as a guest was at least 4x slower than native
speeds.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubi_(Ubuntu_installer)

Regards,
- Robert


