From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Wed Sep  5 00:52:31 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:52:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330706011943s6a3dca3n7b9fc7affd085830@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705311915j30e631dclae8180e67ddef09d@mail.gmail.com>	<465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>	<4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330706011943s6a3dca3n7b9fc7affd085830@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46DE360F.4050007@HotPOP.com>

Wolfger wrote:
>> Bill Gates one of the most powerful people in the world? I wonder what
>> would happen if he got busted for DUI a couple of times? We could ask
>> Paris Hilton, when she gets out of the slam. She's pretty rich.
> 
> Paris Hilton was given a slap on the wrist for DUI (probation) and a
> slightly harder slap on the wrist for violating probation. A sentence
> which, by the way, was cut in half for "good behavior" before she even
> started serving the sentence.
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/2007/05/17/wtf-what-happened-to-no-special-treatment/
> 
> ...and she's not even a fraction of the wealth/power of Mr. Gates. If
> you'll recall correctly, Bill's company was found guilty of some very
> hefty charges here in the USA about... 7 years ago. To the best of my
> knowledge the punishment was never administered at all.
> 
> 

If he doesn't watch his step, soon someone will get sick of his ****
enough that they'll administer their own special, extra-judicial
form of punishment.

The man has a track record of destroying peoples' lives by theft,
fraud, and intimidation.




From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Wed Sep  5 00:41:18 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:41:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <465D69A2.6000208@impelind.com>
References: <20070506.084003.725.1273868@webmail18.lax.untd.com>	<46415307.5070107@hotpop.com>	<200705230128.l4N1SmZb022778@freehold.wwnet.com>	<4657984C.3040408@hotpop.com>	<200705291448.l4TEmsa1008525@freehold.wwnet.com>	<9199bfb0705290756h5c5aca3m55b95e85eda9650@mail.gmail.com>	<465C4BA9.5070800@sbcglobal.net>	<465C4E73.2070203@impelind.com>	<465C7054.5090107@sbcglobal.net>	<465C7C57.7030202@impelind.com>	<3b00b3330705300446o7fb8663fu3c19541e6e0d91a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<465D69A2.6000208@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <46DE336E.5060108@HotPOP.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> Wolfger wrote:
>> On 5/29/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>>
>>   
>>> Wars are great the economy of a
>>> nation involved in one, especially if they are winning the war, due to
>>> greater numbers and better manufacturing capability.
>>>     
>> <sarcasm>Oh, yeah... This ongoing war in Iraq is just sending our
>> economy through the roof!</sarcasm> And just look at the great job
>> market in Iraq! That is, if you don't mind risking your life.
>>   
>     The Iraq War isn't anywhere near the scale of WWII.
> 
>     In certain parts of the country, the economy is certainly booming 
> due to the Iraq War. There's a new military vehicle that is built at a 
> plant somewhere in the south. (I heard a story about it on NPR.) It's 
> called the MRAP and the company building it has increased it's size 
> exponentially since the start of the Iraq War.
> 
>     If the Iraq War was on the scale of WWII, then we'd be seeing a far 
> greater boost to the overall economy.
> 
>>>     Unless you want to ignore the historical realities of World War II...
>>>     
>> I guess you want to ignore the not-so-historical realities of the Iraq War.
>> Nobody says it better than the standard stock market disclaimer:
>> "Past performance is not a guarantee of future results."
>> Just because WWII was good for the economy, doesn't mean every war will be.
>>   
>     Unless you want to ignore the scale of the conflict...
> 

That's the biggest, STUPIDEST myth ever told.

If war were so great for the economy, then why shouldn't we just
have a permanent war-time economy, and have the Air Force and Army
go around blowing stuff up all over the country every day....by your
theory, we would be in economic nirvana within months.

The only reason WW2 was good for the economy is because we were
EXPORTING stuff like crazy to the British and the Russians, and
getting tangible payment (gold) in return.  Our OWN participation
in the war was no better for the economy than any other war is good
for the economy of a belligerant nation (i.e. investing lots of
labor and material into stuff that gets destroyed sooner rather
than later is sound economics only to absolute fools).

Wars are a terrible drain on any nation...the only reason to fight
them is when the cost of NOT fighting is even higher (as is the
current case).




From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Sep  5 13:31:09 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:31:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DE336E.5060108@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>


> 
> That's the biggest, STUPIDEST myth ever told.
> 

  I read this and then ignored the rest. If you were providing more than
just insults, you just "wasted electrons".

  If all you want to do is insult people, keep on doing that, just don't
expect me to ignore the fact that I can put a rule in my mailserver or
client to drop/bounce all messages from you.

  Regards,
  Rob

  P.S. I take it that your recent flurry of responses means you might be
back in the states? If so, welcome home.

  



From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Wed Sep  5 22:10:25 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:10:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>> That's the biggest, STUPIDEST myth ever told.
>>
> 
>   I read this and then ignored the rest. If you were providing more than
> just insults, you just "wasted electrons".
> 

Since when is characterization of false information as such
a personal attack?


>   If all you want to do is insult people, keep on doing that, just don't
> expect me to ignore the fact that I can put a rule in my mailserver or
> client to drop/bounce all messages from you.
> 

It's so typical of a certain political ideology to deliberately
remain ignorant if it hurts their feelings.

It's so sad that you've drunk the kool-aid.



From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Sep  5 22:31:13 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:31:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>
	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

> 
> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to ...

Just one?


From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Wed Sep  5 23:00:45 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:00:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
	<46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
>> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to ...
> 
> Just one?

That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
(and carries out of such threats) to reject applications
for/cancel/withhold academic research funds and all sorts of
other similar crimes and acts of intimidation when confronted
with people who and messages which contradict their beliefs,
rather than (heaven forbid) debate the issues.  Instead of
debates on issues, they hold "forums" (in which all of the
speakers toe the party line).

So, yes, at least in the USA, it is ONE political
ideology's adherents who routinely engage in this sort
of behavior.  And it's doubly ironic that they're the ones
who usually whine about their free speech being abridged
when those from the other side do nothing more than to
exercise their right to free speech, by expressing
messages which contradict that of this one ideology.

Now, if you want to go into religious ideologies, there's
a lot more than just one... and many of them have and will
go all the way to death sentances for contradicting them.




From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Sep  5 23:06:14 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:06:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>	<46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
> shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
> (and carries out of such threats) to reject applications
> for/cancel/withhold academic research funds and all sorts of
> other similar crimes and acts of intimidation when confronted
> with people who and messages which contradict their beliefs,
> rather than (heaven forbid) debate the issues.  Instead of
> debates on issues, they hold "forums" (in which all of the
> speakers toe the party line).
>
> So, yes, at least in the USA, it is ONE political
> ideology's adherents who routinely engage in this sort
> of behavior.  And it's doubly ironic that they're the ones
> who usually whine about their free speech being abridged
> when those from the other side do nothing more than to
> exercise their right to free speech, by expressing
> messages which contradict that of this one ideology.
>   

The Republicans?  Because that sounds like them all over.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Thu Sep  6 02:03:25 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:03:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>	<46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
	<46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
>> shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
>> (and carries out of such threats) to reject applications
>> for/cancel/withhold academic research funds and all sorts of
>> other similar crimes and acts of intimidation when confronted
>> with people who and messages which contradict their beliefs,
>> rather than (heaven forbid) debate the issues.  Instead of
>> debates on issues, they hold "forums" (in which all of the
>> speakers toe the party line).
>>
>> So, yes, at least in the USA, it is ONE political
>> ideology's adherents who routinely engage in this sort
>> of behavior.  And it's doubly ironic that they're the ones
>> who usually whine about their free speech being abridged
>> when those from the other side do nothing more than to
>> exercise their right to free speech, by expressing
>> messages which contradict that of this one ideology.
>>   
> 
> The Republicans?  Because that sounds like them all over.
> 
Documentation?

(And no, I'm not a Republican)



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Sep  6 08:05:51 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:05:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <20070906120937.2B1EF1412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Kulkis
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:10 PM
> To: A place for members to discuss anything they want, 
> subjects not appropriate for any of the other lists.
> Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy 
> [Was: [mdlug] Automotive technical info ...]
> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> >> That's the biggest, STUPIDEST myth ever told.
> >>
> > 
> >   I read this and then ignored the rest. If you were providing more 
> > than just insults, you just "wasted electrons".
> > 
> 
> Since when is characterization of false information as such a 
> personal attack?
> 

	You could have said. "I disagree and here is why."

	I would have read what you wrote and may have learned something

	Instead, you open with an insult.
	
> 
> >   If all you want to do is insult people, keep on doing that, just 
> > don't expect me to ignore the fact that I can put a rule in my 
> > mailserver or client to drop/bounce all messages from you.
> > 
> 
> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to 
> deliberately remain ignorant if it hurts their feelings.
> 
> It's so sad that you've drunk the kool-aid.
> 

	....and you follow with additional insults.

	Just because you disagree with someone or feel they have some series
of facts wrong doesn't mean you now suddenly have a right to throw insults
around.

	There is no reason, on an otherwise friendly discussion mailing
list, to throw around petty insults or be outwardly rude towards one
another, even if there is strong disagreement over a topic of discussion. 

	Personally, I would rather stick to the topic of discussion than to
act rudely towards one another. This is because I am well aware that even
though I may strongly disagree with the personal beliefs of another member,
that other member still has something to contribute to discussions.

	If you want to make this political. Yes, I firmly believe that my
"liberal" view on mailing list etiquette is far superior to your
name-calling, rude, insulting "conservative" view. (Of course, the wise
person would replace both the terms "liberal" and "conservative" with the
word PERSONAL, because that is what it really is.)

	Do you understand this viewpoint?

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Sep  6 08:01:10 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:01:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] War & economy & demopublicans
In-Reply-To: <46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F66@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> Since when is characterization of false information as such
> a personal attack?

 A war is not good for the overall economy per se - that's the "broken
window fallacy", of course. But a war *can* be good for *parts* of an
economy, in the same way that a broken window is good for a glazier. For
example, U.S. oil companies are doing well these days. Wars also increase
government borrowing and spending, which pumps money into the economy,
leading to short-term positive effects. Kind of like a sugar rush,
including the after-effects.

 So Robert may have been guilty of being incomplete, but not guilty of
relaying the "STUPIDEST myth ever told".

> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to deliberately
> remain ignorant if it hurts their feelings.

 See my .sig. The members of *all political parties on Earth* are human.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                 (313) 227-2317

 "In an illustrative recent study, subjects were asked their opinion about
  a social welfare policy, which was described as being endorsed either by
   Democrats or by Republicans. Although the subjects sincerely believed
   that their responses were based on the objective merits of the policy,
   the major determinant of what they thought of the policy was in fact
  whether or not their favored political party was said to endorse it."
                - Paul Bloom and Deena Skolnick Weisberg
          (study at: http://content2.apa.org/journals/psp/85/5/808)
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Sep  6 08:03:24 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:03:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F67@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> >> That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
> >> shouts down speakers...

> > The Republicans?  Because that sounds like them all over.
> > 
> Documentation?

 Gee, Aaron, you first. Shouldn't be hard, right?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                  (313) 227-2317

 "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled
   long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no
 longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us.
  It is simply too painful to acknowledge - even to ourselves - that we've
                      been so credulous." - Carl Sagan
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From sorceror171 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 08:40:28 2007
From: sorceror171 at gmail.com (Raymond Ingles)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:40:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: [mdlug]
	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>
	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com> <46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com> <46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>
	<46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <a481fbf0709060540ufaa4777vcca165fd156a5d5b@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/6/07, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Garry Stahl wrote:
> > Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> >> That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
> >> shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
[...]
> > The Republicans?  Because that sounds like them all over.
> >
> Documentation?

 Oddly enough, Aaron, you're the one who made the first accusation. It
would seem the onus is on *you* to back up *your* claims first, no?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                (313) 227-2317

 "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from
     the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent
              disinclination to do so." - Douglas Adams


From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Sep  6 08:44:58 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:44:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>	<46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>	<46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>
	<46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <46DFF64A.4000403@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Documentation?
>
> (And no, I'm not a Republican)

Arresting protesters for anti Bush t-shirts, "free speech zones" far
from where any protest would be noticed.  Little things like that. 
Check any news archive. 

What I have seen is a strong polarization of the political "process".  A
strong "if you ain't for us you is again' us" attitude from both of the
major parties.  It rather destroys the possibility of reasonable
discourse.  Mind you it's nothing new any more.  It seems to have become
the political norm.  Reasonable disagreement is not met with reasonable
answers, you sic the secret service on them, or what cops you have. 

Being that I hold with neither of the major political parties I can say
without bias that I have seen more of this from the Republican camp than
the Democratic camp.  Specifically and in general the Bush
administration hold the attitude that any disagreement form it's stated
policy is nothing short of treason.

The reason for this many simply be that the Republicans having been the
party in power are more noticeable, and therefor protested against.  The
next couple of years will be telling.

They are failing to see that reasonable disagreement and discourse are
what prevents revolutions.  Revolutions are much messier affairs than
addressing the concerns of the people.


"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American
public." --/Theodore Roosevelt /

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From lnovak1 at ford.com  Thu Sep  6 09:45:49 2007
From: lnovak1 at ford.com (Novak, Louis (L.M.))
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:45:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>


Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
of President Bush?

Or one of his town-hall meetings?


-- 
Louis Novak  lnovak1 at ford.com   (313)248-6788 
Ford Motor Co., IT Learning & Organizational Development
Ask me about my Mercury Mariner Hybrid  




 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
>[mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Kulkis
>Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:01 PM
>To: A place for members to discuss anything they want,subjects 
>not appropriate for any of the other lists.
>Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: 
>[mdlug] Automotive technical info ...]
>
>Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> 
>>> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to ...
>> 
>> Just one?
>
>That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
>shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
>(and carries out of such threats) to reject applications

... Deleted ...


From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Sep  6 11:51:55 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:51:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
Message-ID: <46E0221B.2010501@comcast.net>

Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
> of President Bush?
>
> Or one of his town-hall meetings?
>
>
>   
You mean the ones where he get peppered with the toughest of compliments?

No, food is expensive and I wish it to get fully processed.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Sep  6 11:53:01 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:53:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
Message-ID: <46E0225D.5060405@comcast.net>

Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
> of President Bush?
>   

The existence of a "free speech zone" implies that speech out side of it
is not free.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Sep  6 12:04:04 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:04:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E0225D.5060405@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070906160750.D12EB1412E@impelind.com>


> 
> Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> > Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public 
> appearance of 
> > President Bush?
> >   
> 
> The existence of a "free speech zone" implies that speech out 
> side of it is not free.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 

  Yep. The more people accept those zones, the greater the precedent that
our "Freedom" of speech is simply not worth the paper it is written upon.

	-Rob



From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Thu Sep  6 19:57:25 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:57:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E0221B.2010501@comcast.net>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
	<46E0221B.2010501@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46E093E5.2000509@HotPOP.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
>> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
>> of President Bush?
>>
>> Or one of his town-hall meetings?
>>
>>
>>   
> You mean the ones where he get peppered with the toughest of compliments?
> 

Just like every other president....


> No, food is expensive and I wish it to get fully processed.
> 




From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Thu Sep  6 19:56:45 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:56:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
Message-ID: <46E093BD.4070501@HotPOP.com>

Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
> of President Bush?
> 
> Or one of his town-hall meetings?


No different from Clinton's.

The Secret Service is non-paartisan equal opportunity harassment agency.




From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Thu Sep  6 19:59:13 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:59:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E0225D.5060405@comcast.net>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
	<46E0225D.5060405@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46E09451.3070700@HotPOP.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
>> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
>> of President Bush?
>>   
> 
> The existence of a "free speech zone" implies that speech out side of it
> is not free.
> 


It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.





From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Sep  7 08:02:51 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:02:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E09451.3070700@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F71@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
> They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
> counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.

 Well, according to here:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones

 "Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free speech zone rules
 during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s"

 And just before that:

 "While free speech zones existed in limited forms prior to the Presidency
 of George W. Bush, it has been during Bush's presidency that their scope
 has been greatly expanded."

 Got a competing cite?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From lnovak1 at ford.com  Fri Sep  7 10:00:20 2007
From: lnovak1 at ford.com (Novak, Louis (L.M.))
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:00:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E093BD.4070501@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com><E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
	<46E093BD.4070501@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE67B@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>


Aaron wrote:
>No different from Clinton's.

You're wrong Aaron.

The Secret Service started using Free Speech Zones, relegating
protesters to a location far removed from the president, for
Bush. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Zone

Bush's Town Hall meetings are renowned for their stricter admission
Requirements.

I'll try not to let your ignorance on this point influence my
evaluation of your position on other political issues.


-- 
Louis Novak  lnovak1 at ford.com   (313)248-6788 
Ford Motor Co., IT Learning & Organizational Development
Ask me about my Mercury Mariner Hybrid  




 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
>[mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Kulkis
>Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 7:57 PM
>To: A place for members to discuss anything they want,subjects 
>not appropriate for any of the other lists.
>Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: 
>[mdlug] Automotive technical info ...]
>
>Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
>> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
>> of President Bush?
>> 
>> Or one of his town-hall meetings?
>
>
>No different from Clinton's.
>
>The Secret Service is non-paartisan equal opportunity 
>harassment agency.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug-discuss mailing list
>mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss
>


From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Fri Sep  7 15:16:51 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:16:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs
 gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE67B@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com><E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>	<46E093BD.4070501@HotPOP.com>
	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE67B@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
Message-ID: <46E1A3A3.201@HotPOP.com>

Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
>> No different from Clinton's.
> 
> You're wrong Aaron.
> 
> The Secret Service started using Free Speech Zones, relegating
> protesters to a location far removed from the president, for
> Bush. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Zone


In this case, the people editing the entry are either misinformed
or deliberately slanting the truth.

Here in Royal Oak, the owner of Noir Leather was harassed into
staying in the back of his store when Clinton made a campaign
stop on the back of a railroad car.  Noir Leather is hardly a
hotbed of anti-Democratic Party activity.

> 
> Bush's Town Hall meetings are renowned for their stricter admission
> Requirements.

Clinton had the same.

Or do you recall the woman who was arrested in the 1990's for
merely saying, "you suck!"

> 
> I'll try not to let your ignorance on this point influence my
> evaluation of your position on other political issues.
> 
> 




From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Sep  7 15:37:05 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:37:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs
	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E1A3A3.201@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <20070907194051.22EE71412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Kulkis
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:17 PM
> To: A place for members to discuss anything they want, 
> subjects not appropriate for any of the other lists.
> Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy 
> [Was: [mdlug] Automotive technical info ...]
> 
> Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> > Aaron wrote:
> >> No different from Clinton's.
> > 
> > You're wrong Aaron.
> > 
> > The Secret Service started using Free Speech Zones, relegating 
> > protesters to a location far removed from the president, for Bush. 
> > See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Zone
> 
> 
> In this case, the people editing the entry are either 
> misinformed or deliberately slanting the truth.
> 

	There are cited references for verification purposes. Wikipedia is
like a research paper, if you don't have a source, the words shouldn't be
strongly trusted.


> Here in Royal Oak, the owner of Noir Leather was harassed 
> into staying in the back of his store when Clinton made a 
> campaign stop on the back of a railroad car.  Noir Leather is 
> hardly a hotbed of anti-Democratic Party activity.
> 

	Find a source to cite and then add both to Wikipedia under that
topic. Help make the topic more accurate.

> > 
> > Bush's Town Hall meetings are renowned for their stricter admission 
> > Requirements.
> 
> Clinton had the same.
> 

	Find a source to cite this from and then add both to Wikipedia. Help
make that topic more accurate.

> Or do you recall the woman who was arrested in the 1990's for 
> merely saying, "you suck!"
> 

	Find a source to cite this from and then add both to Wikipedia. Help
make that topic more accurate.



	See the pattern forming?

	Sure, anyone can edit Wikipedia. However, entries with cited sources
are provided more weight by those who review edits and if the source if
reputable and can be verified, removing the additiona and source becomes far
less likely.

	Anyone who says they have a problem with whether or not everything
is or can ever be accurate within Wikipedia simply doesn't understand how
the system works. It's like in gradeschool when given a tasks to write a
report about topic x. If you wrote an awesome report and failed to put any
bibliographical information into the report, than you would have failed the
task, because nobody would be able to verify where you received the
information in the report.

	That same principle is in practice at Wikipedia. If you can't verify
it, then you shouldn't trust it. If you can verify it from more than one
source, chances are it is more accurate than something without cited
sources.

	-Rob



From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Fri Sep  7 15:14:55 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:14:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs
 gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F71@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F71@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46E1A32F.100@HotPOP.com>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Aaron Kulkis
> 
>> It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
>> They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
>> counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.
> 
>  Well, according to here:
> 
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones
> 
>  "Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free speech zone rules
>  during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s"
> 

Some students actually wanted to go to class and get an education.

Since the primary purpose of a university is to teach the classes
which the students are paying for, that was a proper thing to do,
so that students who choose to study can do so without being
harassed by nutjobs

>  And just before that:
> 
>  "While free speech zones existed in limited forms prior to the Presidency
>  of George W. Bush, it has been during Bush's presidency that their scope
>  has been greatly expanded."


The president doesn't run cities ... ANY cities.

And he certainly didn't set the rules in cities at the
opposition parties convention
> 
>  Got a competing cite?
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317
> 
>  "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
>  than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
>                      - Eric Scott Raymond
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug-discuss mailing list
> mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss
> 





From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Sep 10 08:45:39 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:45:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs
	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E1A32F.100@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F7D@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis
> Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> >> From: Aaron Kulkis
> > 
> >> It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
> >> They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
> >> counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.
> > 
> >  Well, according to here:
> > 
> >  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones
> > 
> >  "Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free 
> > speech zone rules during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s"
> 
> Some students actually wanted to go to class and get an education.

 Ah, I see. The "elites" you were referring to were the ones in favor of a
war, and they didn't want to hear anything from left-leaning protestors who
didn't like it. I can see how that is, like you claimed, *precisely the
ironic opposite* of the situation *today*.

 You made a claim about the origins of the practice of "free speech zones",
and when it was pointed out that the claim was false... you shifted to
*justifying* the practice without actually acknowledging that your orignal
claim was incorrect.
 
 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

            Welcome to America, Land of the Free
      (Some restrictions apply, void where prohibited.)
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From as4109 at wayne.edu  Mon Sep 10 20:43:52 2007
From: as4109 at wayne.edu (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:43:52 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
Message-ID: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>

My wife and I had a child last week (picture as of 4 days old attached).  Here 
are some statistics about him:

Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez
Date of birth:  1188988980 (Unix timestamp, ?60)
Mass:  2.61 kg
Length: 48 cm
Gender:  Male


-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt
-- 
David Lee Lambert (recent WSU grad) <as4109 at wayne.edu>
Cell phone:  +1 586-873-8813
Work email:  dlambert at bmtcarhaul.com
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: jesse-4day.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 11008 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070910/2cf7c567/attachment.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070910/2cf7c567/attachment.sig>

From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Sep 10 14:08:53 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:08:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol
 vs	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F7D@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F7D@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46E58835.1090406@hotpop.com>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Aaron Kulkis
>> Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>>     
>>>> From: Aaron Kulkis
>>>>         
>>>> It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
>>>> They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
>>>> counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.
>>>>         
>>>  Well, according to here:
>>>
>>>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones
>>>
>>>  "Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free 
>>> speech zone rules during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s"
>>>       
>> Some students actually wanted to go to class and get an education.
>>     
>
>  Ah, I see. The "elites" you were referring to were the ones in favor of a
> war, and they didn't want to hear anything from left-leaning protestors who
> didn't like it. I can see how that is, like you claimed, *precisely the
> ironic opposite* of the situation *today*.
>

When I was at Purdue, for example, there was no war, but protesting
was strictly limited to large open areas on the campus, such that the
presence of protesters would not block the path of those who wished
to simply go about their business.

>  You made a claim about the origins of the practice of "free speech zones",
> and when it was pointed out that the claim was false... you shifted to
> *justifying* the practice without actually acknowledging that your orignal
> claim was incorrect.
You want to talk about Slavery, Jim Crow laws, and the Democratic Party,
or would you prefer to stick with people who are actually.




From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 21:19:46 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:19:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
In-Reply-To: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
References: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <5aa434200709101819m27535b9bhd9df4f02b0d7f94b@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations, David.

On 9/10/07, David Lee Lambert <as4109 at wayne.edu> wrote:
> My wife and I had a child last week (picture as of 4 days old attached).  Here
> are some statistics about him:
>
> Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez
> Date of birth:  1188988980 (Unix timestamp, ?60)
> Mass:  2.61 kg
> Length: 48 cm
> Gender:  Male
>
>
> --
> David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
> Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or
> <lamber45 at msu.edu>
> GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt
> --
> David Lee Lambert (recent WSU grad) <as4109 at wayne.edu>
> Cell phone:  +1 586-873-8813
> Work email:  dlambert at bmtcarhaul.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug-discuss mailing list
> mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss
>
>


From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Sep 10 23:44:13 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:44:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
In-Reply-To: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
References: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <46E60F0D.2070201@ameritech.net>

David Lee Lambert wrote:
> My wife and I had a child last week (picture as of 4 days old attached).  Here 
> are some statistics about him:
> 
> Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez
> Date of birth:  1188988980 (Unix timestamp, ?60)
> Mass:  2.61 kg
> Length: 48 cm
> Gender:  Male
> 

Congrats David!

Er... how did you get a binary past our de-mime agent?


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Sep 11 08:15:29 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:15:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
In-Reply-To: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F80@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: David Lee Lambert

> Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez

 Congratulations! That's a heck of a middle name, but at least you won't be
in our position, when we yell "Andrew" or "John" at a crowd of kids and three
boys look up. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 "The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts
  agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer
    professionals. We cause accidents." - Nathaniel Borenstein
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Sep 11 08:17:15 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:17:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
In-Reply-To: <46E60F0D.2070201@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20070911122109.2CFBA1412E@impelind.com>

The de-mime agent probably just has a softspot for baby pictures...

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Raymond 
> McLaughlin
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:44 PM
> To: A place for members to discuss anything they want, 
> subjects not appropriate for any of the other lists.
> Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
> 
> David Lee Lambert wrote:
> > My wife and I had a child last week (picture as of 4 days old 
> > attached).  Here are some statistics about him:
> > 
> > Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez Date of birth:  
> > 1188988980 (Unix timestamp, ?60)
> > Mass:  2.61 kg
> > Length: 48 cm
> > Gender:  Male
> > 
> 
> Congrats David!
> 
> Er... how did you get a binary past our de-mime agent?
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug-discuss mailing list
> mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss
> 



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Sep 11 08:36:46 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:36:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol
	vs	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E58835.1090406@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F81@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> >  You made a claim about the origins of the practice of "free speech zones",
> > and when it was pointed out that the claim was false... you shifted to
> > *justifying* the practice without actually acknowledging that your orignal
> > claim was incorrect.

> You want to talk about Slavery, Jim Crow laws, and the Democratic Party,
> or would you prefer to stick with people who are actually.

 ...and then you bring up irrelevant side topics. I have to say, it reminds me
of an octopus squirting ink as it retreats. *I* never claimed that the
Democratic Party was pure as the driven snow... or even likeable on average.
*All* I did was point out that *your* claim was unsupported and apparently
without merit. You've done nothing to support it since. Oh, and you've not
documented your claims about "the ideology which routinely burns newspapers",
either.

 Arguendo, let's assume the Democratic Party is the direct puppet of Cthulhu
and the Elder Gods. Now explain how that makes you right about "free speech
zones".

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

  "...while several federal agencies acknowledge that they
   contribute names to the [secret blacklist of people not
  allowed to fly on commercial flights], none of them, when
 contacted by The Chronicle, could or would say which agency
   is responsible for managing the list." - S.F. Chronicle
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From gib at juno.com  Tue Sep 11 10:02:11 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:02:11 GMT
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
Message-ID: <20070911.100211.19529.1@webmail15.vgs.untd.com>

 
What kind of throughput are ya gettin' on that  . . . ah, oh, wait nevermind. 

_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on rehab treatments for drug &amp; alcohol dependency.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifcCGuff473reve6Kz5QjiIUVuFYxMx1tvgXorbAPRxW6vcg/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070911/97a8eba9/attachment.html>

From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Sep 11 12:19:19 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:19:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss]
 Ethanol	vs	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F81@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F81@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46E6C007.3090907@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Arguendo, let's assume the Democratic Party is the direct puppet of Cthulhu and the Elder Gods. 

Not all of them, Narlothep has the Republicans.  I think Dick Cheny is
his avatar.  I think Azoroth has the Greens.  It would explain many
things, you must admit.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 01:24:12 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:24:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] OT: MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video
Message-ID: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>

I have NEVER seen the like of this MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video-- it's
both funny and horrifying at the same time.  Market droids were sure
wacky in the late '80s.  Cocaine addiction is a terrible thing!  Of
course ANYTHING was better than MS-DOS 4...

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmEvPZUdAVI>

-- Mikey


From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Sep 14 01:51:55 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:51:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] OT: MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46EA217B.7020101@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> I have NEVER seen the like of this MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video-- it's
> both funny and horrifying at the same time.  Market droids were sure
> wacky in the late '80s.  Cocaine addiction is a terrible thing!  Of
> course ANYTHING was better than MS-DOS 4...
>   

Apple basic....


I'm sad to say that it looks like Russia will be adopting Vista.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis at hotpop.com  Fri Sep 14 01:38:25 2007
From: akulkis at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:38:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] OT: MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46EA1E51.3000408@hotpop.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> I have NEVER seen the like of this MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video-- it's
> both funny and horrifying at the same time.  Market droids were sure
> wacky in the late '80s.  Cocaine addiction is a terrible thing!  Of
> course ANYTHING was better than MS-DOS 4...
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmEvPZUdAVI>
>   

I hope everyone who participated in the production
this thing was taken out to a remote field and shot --
especially the director :-P who deserves a whole
belt of ammunition.... The "instructor" team is
hokey...but the behavior and reactions of the two
tech-support "students" (idiot-like facial expressions,
and head gestures) are just plain insipid.

What's scary, is the information on the youtube page indicates
that MS actually DISTRIBUTED this garbage to VAR's...and scarier
still is that business people actually bought into it.




From dobwan at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 15 08:35:21 2007
From: dobwan at earthlink.net (Duane Brown)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 08:35:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] OT: Caldera DR-Dos sighting
In-Reply-To: <46EA1E51.3000408@hotpop.com>
References: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
	<46EA1E51.3000408@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <46EBD189.6010504@earthlink.net>

seeing the mention of MS-DOS reminded me of something

The other day while working out at the Y one of the workout machines was 
having a problem. On the boot up screen "Caldera DR-DOS" was complaining 
about not being able to reach the server. It just goes to show you that 
what you write and implement today may still be in use many years into 
the future.

Duane


From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Sep 16 15:42:46 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:42:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
Message-ID: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>

OK, check this one out.  I might be replacing my water heater at the
least.  Converting the house to hot water heat might not be cost
effective, but wow.  A twelve inch tube that can replace your house's
boiler, and to be on the market in 18 months?  Efficiency is the key
here.  You get out 150 -200% more than you put in.  Better, it's been
proven, this is no cold fusion.  The article even is a diagram of the thing.

<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=481996&in_page_id=1965>

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From wolfger at gmail.com  Sun Sep 16 17:35:01 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:35:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/16/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> OK, check this one out.  I might be replacing my water heater at the
> least.  Converting the house to hot water heat might not be cost
> effective, but wow.  A twelve inch tube that can replace your house's
> boiler, and to be on the market in 18 months?  Efficiency is the key
> here.  You get out 150 -200% more than you put in.


There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy out
than you put in.
And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain
exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070916/105cf88d/attachment.html>

From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Sep 16 17:45:41 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:45:41 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
	<3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>

Wolfger wrote:
>
> There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
> Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
> You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy
> out than you put in.
> And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain
> exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.

Yet it has been tested and does work.  Ergo, the process is working
differently that is understood.

I will point out the bumblebee problem.  While it has been solved, for
many years it was assumed that bumblebees could not fly.  Bumblebees
being devoid of the knowledge of physics, kept flying.  Eventual it was
discovered that the bumblebees were not breaking the laws of physics
after all.  The problem was we didn't understand the laws.

The are getting more energy out that in, electrical energy in.  Ergo the
energy is coming from somewhere else.  A catalyst is mentioned in
there.  Another reaction is happening aided by the catalyst and  the
electrical input.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From gib at juno.com  Sun Sep 16 19:16:18 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:16:18 GMT
Subject: [mdlug-discuss]  The Hell you say? More energy out than in
Message-ID: <20070916.191618.24928.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com>


Well, I don't think a heater has to get more energy out than in to be effective.  Look a how a tree grabs sunlight and converts it.  So, why can't a heater obtain heat to be redistributed?

Please note: message attached


_____________________________________________________________
Be your own boss today! Go to Technical School. Click here.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigla9ZgaXofwZYYKXNokOGtnB6dPYzv8hcZc6swPMYHS6nxB/

-------------- next part --------------
On 9/16/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> OK, check this one out.  I might be replacing my water heater at the
> least.  Converting the house to hot water heat might not be cost
> effective, but wow.  A twelve inch tube that can replace your house's
> boiler, and to be on the market in 18 months?  Efficiency is the key
> here.  You get out 150 -200% more than you put in.


There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy out
than you put in.
And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain
exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070916/d415eaeb/attachment.html>

From wolfger at gmail.com  Sun Sep 16 19:52:13 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:52:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
	<3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
	<46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330709161652s3738e72bi7cfac8aa9ad4d3f9@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/16/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> The are getting more energy out that in, electrical energy in.  Ergo the
> energy is coming from somewhere else.  A catalyst is mentioned in
> there.  Another reaction is happening aided by the catalyst and  the
> electrical input.
>

Right. There is more than one form of energy input here. So there is some
chemical energy, which means a catalyst of some sort that will need
replacing at certain intervals. Unfortunately, they're keeping the catalyst
"closed source", so it's impossible to determine if this "fantastic" new
heater that "puts out more energy than it takes in" is actually cost
effective, but judging by the wording in the press release (the "we don't
even know how it works" line really gets me), this is going to be more hype
than breakthrough.

... hope I'm wrong.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070916/2442ba6a/attachment.html>

From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 16 20:52:04 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen majorovic)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:52:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>	<3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
	<46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46EDCFB4.7030901@sbcglobal.net>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Wolfger wrote:
>   
>> There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
>> Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
>> You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy
>> out than you put in.
>> And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain
>> exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.
>>     
>
> Yet it has been tested and does work.  Ergo, the process is working
> differently that is understood.
>
> I will point out the bumblebee problem.  While it has been solved, for
> many years it was assumed that bumblebees could not fly.  Bumblebees
> being devoid of the knowledge of physics, kept flying.  Eventual it was
> discovered that the bumblebees were not breaking the laws of physics
> after all.  The problem was we didn't understand the laws.
>
> The are getting more energy out that in, electrical energy in.  Ergo the
> energy is coming from somewhere else.  A catalyst is mentioned in
> there.  Another reaction is happening aided by the catalyst and  the
> electrical input.
>   
The difference between over-unity devices and bumblebees is that it 
isn't hard to find examples of flying bumblebees which casts some doubt 
on the accuracy of aerodynamic theory used to prove that bumblebees 
can't fly. There's no such problem with the laws of thermodynamics since 
no one's displayed a working over-unity device.

If the guy claims he has a working gadget and wants to commit science 
he's got to figure out how to have a disinterested party replicate his 
results. Preferably multiple, disinterested parties since ignoring the 
laws of thermodynamics definitely comes under the heading of 
"extraordinary claims" which require extraordinary proof.

The possibilities are A) the guy's stumbled upon a completely unknown 
branch of chemistry which seems to ignore the laws of thermodynamics, B) 
he's mistaken, C) he's a fraud. Are there any other possibilities?

Since he's got a unit that he says works, I think "B" isn't likely which 
leaves "A" or "C".

Allen




From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 16 20:59:11 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:59:11 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330709161652s3738e72bi7cfac8aa9ad4d3f9@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
	<3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
	<46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
	<3b00b3330709161652s3738e72bi7cfac8aa9ad4d3f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20070916205734.02f5bdd0@pop.gmail.com>

     In fact, there *are*, and have long been, devices that provide more
heating than the purchased energy that they consume. They are called
heat pumps, and are really air conditioners mounted backwards. Typical
air conditioners move around 5 times as much heat as they use electricity,
and all of it within the laws of thermodynamics.

     You see, the maximum possible efficiency of a heat moving device is
the absolute-scale low temperature divided by the temperature difference,
and in most climates the difference is small compared to the temperatures
themselves. For example, if it's 32 degrees F. outside and you're heating
the house to 80 degrees F., the absolute temperatures being 273 K and
300 K, the maximum possible efficiency will be 273K/27K, or just over 10.
So, getting twice as much heating out, or even five times as much, is
actually rather dismal performance.

     The rub is that the maximum possible efficiency for a heat *engine*
is the temperature difference divided by the absolute-scale *high*
temperature. So that if you try to run a combo heat pump/engine, the
total performance coefficient will be the low divided by the high, and
since the low is always less than the high, the heat engine can never
produce enough power to keep the heat pump going.


     I gather, though, that this is not supposed to be a heat pump. If it
*is* _creating_ the heat out of nothing, then the important question
becomes, how high a temperature can be achieved at the hot end while still
putting out double its input. Generators being around 85% efficient (and
newer ones may do better for all I know), if the hot end can get to
2 * 273K / 0.85 = 642K, or almost 700 degrees F, it can reach breakeven
in conjunction with a heat engine.

     Additional note: Cold (or hot, for that matter) fusion would also be
within the laws of thermodynamics. Hydrogen (usually heavy) is turned into
helium in the process, and it would presumably be more difficult to turn
the helium back into hydrogen than what you got out of the first process.
But while it takes at least 60598 BTUs, and possibly a bit more, to pull
a pound of hydrogen out of water, and even more if you're stuck with a
machine that needs heavy isotopes of hydrogen, turning that pound of
hydrogen into helium would release around 300 *billion* BTUs. So for any
practical purpose short of interstellar travel, a fusion reactor would
be just as good as a perpetual motion machine. The only difference is
that the fusion reactor can't be accused of violating any physical laws.


----

  - Drew.


    "When I went to school, they taught me to honor the Flag, vote the
     straight party ticket, and believe in the law of conservation of
     energy."
                 - Lazarus Long.



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Sep 17 01:22:06 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:22:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say? More energy out than in
In-Reply-To: <20070916.191618.24928.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20070916.191618.24928.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <46EE0EFE.1070909@hotpop.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
> Well, I don't think a heater has to get more energy out than in to be effective.  Look a how a tree grabs sunlight and converts it.  So, why can't a heater obtain heat to be redistributed?
>
>   

Chlorophyll is a well known light->chemical energy converter, which
produces less chemical energy than the energy of the light absorbed.

> Please note: message attached
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Be your own boss today! Go to Technical School. Click here.
> http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigla9ZgaXofwZYYKXNokOGtnB6dPYzv8hcZc6swPMYHS6nxB/
>
>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 9/16/07, *Garry Stahl* <tesral at comcast.net 
> <mailto:tesral at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
>     OK, check this one out.  I might be replacing my water heater at the
>     least.  Converting the house to hot water heat might not be cost
>     effective, but wow.  A twelve inch tube that can replace your house's
>     boiler, and to be on the market in 18 months?  Efficiency is the key
>     here.  You get out 150 -200% more than you put in. 
>
>
> There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
> Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
> You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy 
> out than you put in.
> And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain 
> exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.
>
> -- 
> Wolfger
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/ <http://wolfger.wordpress.com/>
> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> Ekiga: wolfger
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug-discuss mailing list
> mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss





From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Sep 24 23:17:35 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:17:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
Message-ID: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>

OBD-II users,

I know that we have some OBD-II enthusiasts and automotive experts.

Due to intermittent misbehavior by my car,
I've begun using an OBD-II modem and Palm Device to monitor my cars operation.

Unfortunately, I cannot yet recognize anomalous behavior.

Does anyone have any familiarity with normal OBD-II readings?

Are long and short time fuel trim normally rich (~-13% +/- 7%)?
Is calculated load normally ~33% in reverse with brake on?
Is calculated load normally ~20% in park?

TIA,
-- 
Robert Meier

  "The liberties of our country are worth defending at all hazards. We have
   received them from our worthy ancestors; they purchased them for us with
   toil, treasure and blood. It will bring an everlasting infamy on the
   present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be
   wrested from us...or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and
   designing men."
	     -- Samuel Adams, 1771.


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 25 21:07:32 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:07:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <e9cc7f0a0709251807p72010c4eo3aff32dfe985cd14@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/24/07, Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> OBD-II users,
>Unfortunately, I cannot yet recognize anomalous behavior.
>
> Does anyone have any familiarity with normal OBD-II readings?
>
> Are long and short time fuel trim normally rich (~-13% +/- 7%)?
> Is calculated load normally ~33% in reverse with brake on?
> Is calculated load normally ~20% in park?
>

I don't know about the load.

My Fuel Trim readings start out in that range, but promptly level out
to within a couple of 128ths from stoich, sometimes going slightly
lean.

BTW: I've still to get any official word on what to do with these
numbers when calculating fuel flow rate. There are *two* short term
and *two* long term fuel trim numbers. Last test, I used about 8% more
fuel than my software tallied up.

----

- Drew.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Sep 25 09:24:23 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:24:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> OBD-II users,
>
> I know that we have some OBD-II enthusiasts and automotive experts.
>
> Due to intermittent misbehavior by my car,
> I've begun using an OBD-II modem and Palm Device to monitor my cars operation.
>
> Unfortunately, I cannot yet recognize anomalous behavior.
>
> Does anyone have any familiarity with normal OBD-II readings?
>
> Are long and short time fuel trim normally rich (~-13% +/- 7%)?
> Is calculated load normally ~33% in reverse with brake on?
> Is calculated load normally ~20% in park?
>
> TIA,
>   
Bigger question... what exactly is the car doing that is
driving (heh!) you to monitor its behavior so obsessively?

Symptoms might be identifiable enough that OBD data actually
confuses the issue (due to lack of familiarity with what
OBD readings are normal and what they indicate).






From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Sep 26 12:36:20 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:36:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com> (message from Aaron Kulkis on Tue, 
	25 Sep 2007 09:24:23 -0400)
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>

Aaron,

> Bigger question... what exactly is the car doing that is
> driving (heh!) you to monitor its behavior so obsessively?

The car is a Saturn SL2 2001 with 75Kmi.

In late July, I had new tires put on the car.
The prior tires were Firestones with 75Kmi on them.
The new tires are same radius Cooper tires.

As always, I kept track of gas mileage,
and expected to lose a percent or two simply
due to widing of tire with new tread.

The actual gas mileage dropped from about 30mpg to 25mpg (~20%).
The car also seemed to be struggling up some hills I remember
having no trouble climbing and otherwise appearing slightly "sluggish".
After a second tank of gas confirmed the mileage drop,

I tried pressurizing the tires to 4psi over the door plate figure,
as the old tires had been.  There was no noticeable change.

I was too busy trying to satisfy a long-hours job, and so couldn't
readily take the car to the mechanic until about 1month had passed.
I confirmed the presence of adequage oil, transmission fluid, coolant,
and my inexpert eye could not find any disconnected/broken hoses/clamps/...

Taking a coworker to lunch on M-59, the speed topped out at 45mph
and the tach was ~4000rpm.  I scheduled to take it to the mechanic
the next day.  On the return trip, the speed topped out at 15mph,
with everything I could think of to reduce engine load.
A few days before, on the weekend, I'd used it with only slight
sluggishness compared to pre-July performance at Detroit highway
speeds.

I dropped my coworker off and took it directly to the mechanic.
Enroute to the mechanic, I tried pushing the accelerator to the
floor (when traffic permitted) to engage the "flood mode" switch
that leaned the fuel injection (to permit starting when flooded).
After three such operations, the cars top speed climbed to 45mph
at which I made it to the mechanic.

The mechanic originally said the computer reported multiple
trouble codes (the MEL was NOT lit), and that the transaxle output
speed sensor was not reporting.  The mechanic assumed that
most drivers would not have noticed that the speedometer was
reporting 0mph.  I would have noticed a speedometer reporting 0
and did not at anytime see such.

The next day, the mechanic said that the speed sensor was working
and the misdiagnosis was due to misuse of the monitoring equipment.
They did change the fuel filter (which was already reported to
need replacement (50% blocked) when next convenient).  The
mechanic reported that the car behaved fine in multiple test drives
and they could find nothing wrong.  The mechanic recommended that
I merely watch the car until I could learn something deterministic.

The mechanic did suggest watching the transmission change points
and said the torque converter should be bypassed at 47mph.

Since then, despite the time limits of the above-mentioned job,
I stepped up my long-planned efforts to install a modem (already
assembled) in the car and begin monitoring (planned for baseline
measures, now unfortunately for diagnostics).

I have found that its misbehavior is intermittent,
usually but not always when the outside air temperature (not the engine)
is hot.  (Driving the car in the cool morning, cool evening, on
a cloudy day, or after sitting in the shade, it seldom misbehaves.
After sitting on a hot parking lot on a sunny day, it frequently
but not always misbehaves.)

When it misbehaves, the tach rises above 3000rpm without downshifting.
When it is not misbehaving, it seems less peppy than I remember,
and it takes several times as long to accelerate to I-75 speed,
as I remember when I was commuting daily to/from downtown.

At no time have I seen the MEL lit, nor have I found any trouble
codes in the queue.  I've been unable to identify conditions
under which it reliably misbehaves.

I've verified accurate dashboard speedometer reading with a
gps receiver on several occasions.  On two occasions, when
I had neither palm nor gps, I observed my dashboard speedometer
reporting less than posted speed while keeping up with traffic
(once on M-59 and once on I-75).

The monitoring tool is OBD-Gauge running on a salvage (for 5$,
suffers total amnesia every few days) Palm.  It reports and graphs
(not uploadable) throttle position, tachometer, vehicle speed,
calculated load, ignition advance, coolant temperature,
manifold air pressure, short term fuel trim, long term fuel trim,
manifold air temperature, oxygen sensor (pre-catalytic),
oxygen sensor (post catalytic).  I understand 0 fuel trim
indicates stoich burning; negative readings like I see,
indicate rich mixture.

		    normal observation		misbehaving
tachometer:	    2000-3000			2500-3500
vehicle speed:	    (matches speedometer)	(matches speedometer)
calculated load:    ~33 in drive with brake	
		    ~25 in park
coolant temp:	    ambient->95<->105oC		same
manifold aid press: ~100KPa engine off
		    ~40KPa idling
		    ~20KPa under load
oxygen sensors:	    250-750mV (almost white noise) same
short fuel trim:    ~0 to -40/99 averages -13	same
long fuel trim:	    ~0 to -23/99 averages -9    same

On one occasion, I observed an OBD vehicle speed of 0, while the
car was in motion, and the dashboard speedometer was apparently
reading correctly.  (This may have been loss of data cable connection.)

Reporting,
-- 
Robert Meier

  "Always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't go to yours."
     -- Yogi Berra


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Sep 26 15:15:39 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:15:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>
	<20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Aaron,
>
>   
>> Bigger question... what exactly is the car doing that is
>> driving (heh!) you to monitor its behavior so obsessively?
>>     
>
> The car is a Saturn SL2 2001 with 75Kmi.
>
> In late July, I had new tires put on the car.
> The prior tires were Firestones with 75Kmi on them.
> The new tires are same radius Cooper tires.
>
> As always, I kept track of gas mileage,
> and expected to lose a percent or two simply
> due to widing of tire with new tread.
>
> The actual gas mileage dropped from about 30mpg to 25mpg (~20%).
> The car also seemed to be struggling up some hills I remember
> having no trouble climbing and otherwise appearing slightly "sluggish".
> After a second tank of gas confirmed the mileage drop,
>
> I tried pressurizing the tires to 4psi over the door plate figure,
> as the old tires had been.  There was no noticeable change.
>
> I was too busy trying to satisfy a long-hours job, and so couldn't
> readily take the car to the mechanic until about 1month had passed.
> I confirmed the presence of adequage oil, transmission fluid, coolant,
> and my inexpert eye could not find any disconnected/broken hoses/clamps/...
>
> Taking a coworker to lunch on M-59, the speed topped out at 45mph
> and the tach was ~4000rpm.  I scheduled to take it to the mechanic
> the next day.  On the return trip, the speed topped out at 15mph,
> with everything I could think of to reduce engine load.
> A few days before, on the weekend, I'd used it with only slight
> sluggishness compared to pre-July performance at Detroit highway
> speeds.
>
> I dropped my coworker off and took it directly to the mechanic.
> Enroute to the mechanic, I tried pushing the accelerator to the
> floor (when traffic permitted) to engage the "flood mode" switch
> that leaned the fuel injection (to permit starting when flooded).
> After three such operations, the cars top speed climbed to 45mph
> at which I made it to the mechanic.
>
> The mechanic originally said the computer reported multiple
> trouble codes (the MEL was NOT lit), and that the transaxle output
> speed sensor was not reporting.  The mechanic assumed that
> most drivers would not have noticed that the speedometer was
> reporting 0mph.  I would have noticed a speedometer reporting 0
> and did not at anytime see such.
>
> The next day, the mechanic said that the speed sensor was working
> and the misdiagnosis was due to misuse of the monitoring equipment.
> They did change the fuel filter (which was already reported to
> need replacement (50% blocked) when next convenient).  The
> mechanic reported that the car behaved fine in multiple test drives
> and they could find nothing wrong.  The mechanic recommended that
> I merely watch the car until I could learn something deterministic.
>
> The mechanic did suggest watching the transmission change points
> and said the torque converter should be bypassed at 47mph.
>
> Since then, despite the time limits of the above-mentioned job,
> I stepped up my long-planned efforts to install a modem (already
> assembled) in the car and begin monitoring (planned for baseline
> measures, now unfortunately for diagnostics).
>
> I have found that its misbehavior is intermittent,
> usually but not always when the outside air temperature (not the engine)
> is hot.  (Driving the car in the cool morning, cool evening, on
> a cloudy day, or after sitting in the shade, it seldom misbehaves.
> After sitting on a hot parking lot on a sunny day, it frequently
> but not always misbehaves.)
>
> When it misbehaves, the tach rises above 3000rpm without downshifting.
> When it is not misbehaving, it seems less peppy than I remember,
> and it takes several times as long to accelerate to I-75 speed,
> as I remember when I was commuting daily to/from downtown.
>
> At no time have I seen the MEL lit, nor have I found any trouble
> codes in the queue.  I've been unable to identify conditions
> under which it reliably misbehaves.
>
> I've verified accurate dashboard speedometer reading with a
> gps receiver on several occasions.  On two occasions, when
> I had neither palm nor gps, I observed my dashboard speedometer
> reporting less than posted speed while keeping up with traffic
> (once on M-59 and once on I-75).
>
> The monitoring tool is OBD-Gauge running on a salvage (for 5$,
> suffers total amnesia every few days) Palm.  It reports and graphs
> (not uploadable) throttle position, tachometer, vehicle speed,
> calculated load, ignition advance, coolant temperature,
> manifold air pressure, short term fuel trim, long term fuel trim,
> manifold air temperature, oxygen sensor (pre-catalytic),
> oxygen sensor (post catalytic).  I understand 0 fuel trim
> indicates stoich burning; negative readings like I see,
> indicate rich mixture.
>

Perhaps your Mass Air Flow sensor is reading high (engine
computer thinks more air is coming in than actually is,
and thus directs for more fuel than is needed).

By different means, a dirty air filter can also cause
an overly rich mixture.



75,000 miles is getting up there.
When was the last time the following services were performed:

Fuel Filter Replacement
Spark Plugs Clean and Re-gap OR Replace and re-gap
Spark Plug Wires Replace
PCV valve Clean or Replace
Throttle Body Clean
Air Filter Replace

Spark plugs are cheap ($2 each), so I replace those ever
12-24 months. Aging spark plug wires can result in weak
ignition, even if you don't have any misfiring.

A gummed up PCV valve allows the inside of the engine block
to hold high pressure gases (and also lots of nasty stuff
that you don't want in your oil).

Fuel filter... it's amazing how a used up fuel filter can
rob you of both mileage and power. I'm not sure if it could
cause overly rich readings, however.



> 		    normal observation		misbehaving
> tachometer:	    2000-3000			2500-3500
> vehicle speed:	    (matches speedometer)	(matches speedometer)
> calculated load:    ~33 in drive with brake	
> 		    ~25 in park
> coolant temp:	    ambient->95<->105oC		same
> manifold aid press: ~100KPa engine off
> 		    ~40KPa idling
> 		    ~20KPa under load
> oxygen sensors:	    250-750mV (almost white noise) same
> short fuel trim:    ~0 to -40/99 averages -13	same
> long fuel trim:	    ~0 to -23/99 averages -9    same
>
> On one occasion, I observed an OBD vehicle speed of 0, while the
> car was in motion, and the dashboard speedometer was apparently
> reading correctly.  (This may have been loss of data cable connection.)
>
> Reporting,
>   





From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Sep 26 23:33:40 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:33:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com> (message from Aaron Kulkis on Wed, 
	26 Sep 2007 15:15:39 -0400)
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>
	<20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
	<46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20070927033340.0D5A420AB9E@starfox.local>

Aaron,

Thanks for your suggestions.

> Perhaps your Mass Air Flow sensor is reading high
> (engine computer thinks more air is coming in than
> actually is, and thus directs for more fuel than is needed).

OBD Gauge does not include that measurement (or my car is unequipped).

> By different means, a dirty air filter can also cause
> an overly rich mixture.

Air filter looks clean and was just changed less than 3Kmi ago.

> 75,000 miles is getting up there.

Two of my prior cars were at 120Kmi and 140Kmi when they
were totalled by collision.

> When was the last time the following services were performed:

> Fuel Filter Replacement
1Kmi after start of problem, and 1Kmi before now

> Spark Plugs Clean and Re-gap OR Replace and re-gap
> Spark Plug Wires Replace
> PCV valve Clean or Replace

60Kmi (15Kmi ago)

> Throttle Body Clean

unknown

> Air Filter Replace

72Kmi (3Kmi ago)

> Spark plugs are cheap ($2 each), so I replace those ever
> 12-24 months. Aging spark plug wires can result in weak
> ignition, even if you don't have any misfiring.

Unfortunately the Saturn plugs are difficult to get at to replace.

> A gummed up PCV valve allows the inside of the engine block
> to hold high pressure gases (and also lots of nasty stuff
> that you don't want in your oil).

> Fuel filter... it's amazing how a used up fuel filter can
> rob you of both mileage and power. I'm not sure if it could
> cause overly rich readings, however.

As this was actually overdue for replacement,
it was replaced first,
but I would expect a clogged fuel filter to restrict fuel flow
and behave like a "fuel starvation" lean injection.

Still investigating,
-- 
Robert Meier
tel:+1.248.650.9488 (voicemail)
mailto:eaglecoach at wwnet.com

 "Destruction is *easy*. Even stupid people and weather formations can
    do it. If you think you're so cool, try *improving* something."
	      -- Ray Ingles 1997


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Thu Sep 27 09:19:01 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:19:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] MDLUG usage reminder
Message-ID: <46FBADC5.mailJ8Q11T7A2@freehold.wwnet.com>

This is the monthly reminder of
     mdlug List Guidelines.
Please send comments to eaglecoach at wwnet.com
Meetings are monthly (http://www.mdlug.org/meetings/meetings.html).

*Courtesy:*
Do unto others what you would have them do unto you in their place.

See /Emily Postnews/ (http://www.templetons.com/brad/emily.html) and
  /Netiquette Guidelines/ (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html) for details.

If you find something objectionable or off-topic, please send a courteous
  note offlist to the author (and/or postmaster at mdlug.org) rather than list.
  (The rule is simple, do not be easily annoyed or annoying.)

Please post messages in plain text (rather than html or rich text).
  See http://expita.com/nomime.html for instructions for your browser.

Please remove References: field when starting a new subject.

Please trim your replies so that you only quote the parts you are are
  replying to, rather than the entire original message , and
  prefix with '>'. (Most mail clients do this part automatically.)

Please do not cross-post, and if you feel you must, please direct
  discussion to one list with a reply-to; field

*Lists:*
 mdlug-admin    mdlug administration

 mdlug-newbie   questions/answers with explanation of concepts
                assume the questioner was unaware of the
                man/info/... pages
                initial configuration of ???

 mdlug          ANNOUNCE: announcements only, no discussion

 mdlug          questions/answers using jargon
                assume the questioner has read the man/info/... pages
                technical (e.g. howto, perl scripts)

 mdlug-discuss  politics
                Microsoft-bashing
                my disto can beat up your distro, and other flames
                anything else

*Filtering and Security*
If you lack time or interest to follow some of the topics, ask
 mdlug-newbie for suggestions on filtering mail automatically.

We welcome the many who listen silently, and invite them to post when
 they wish to contribute either questions or answers.

We strip the reply to addresses from the headers of messages before putting
 them in the archives.

Likewise, our archiving software quashes email addresses in the body of
 messages, to make them difficult for spammers to harvest. However they
 will still be human readable so you might want to consider this before
 posting personal email addresses.

Have fun!


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 27 19:31:13 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:31:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.46fc3d41.3bae3041.1d72@zaurus>

* Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote on 26.09.2007 21:15:39:
 
> Perhaps your Mass Air Flow sensor is reading high (engine
 
> By different means, a dirty air filter can also cause
> an overly rich mixture.

    If it's a carbeurated engine I would agree. But a computer controlled fuel injected engine is supposed to automatically adjust the fuel mix to match the air flow, whatever it may be, either by reading the mass air flow and dividing by 14.7, or else by moving it back and forth as required to have the tiniest detectable unused oxygen in the exhaust. Restricting air flow shound result in proportionately reduced fuel metering. 
 
> Fuel filter... it's amazing how a used up fuel filter can
> rob you of both mileage and power. I'm not sure if it could
> cause overly rich readings, however.
>

As Dr. Bob points out this should *reduce* fuel flow. And the adjustment process should still result in stoich mixes.

---

- Drew.





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Sep 27 03:35:00 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 03:35:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070927033340.0D5A420AB9E@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>	<20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>	<46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com>
	<20070927033340.0D5A420AB9E@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46FB5D24.6060802@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> Thanks for your suggestions.
>
>   
>> Perhaps your Mass Air Flow sensor is reading high
>> (engine computer thinks more air is coming in than
>> actually is, and thus directs for more fuel than is needed).
>>     
>
> OBD Gauge does not include that measurement (or my car is unequipped).
>
If you have fuel injection, you probably have one. It will
be an electrical sensor in the duct that connects the air
filter housing to the throttle body.

If it's say, a little gummed up or a bit of rust, such that
it "sticks" a little bit high after an acceleration, it
could cause a problem like this.

I first became aware of the impact this thing has on earlier
car that had a bit of dry rot on the ductwork between the
MAF sensor and the throttle body. When pressing the
throttle down heavily, the the air pressure from the air
intake all the way back to the throttle body drops
significantly. (Under low throttle, the butterfly valve
in the intake side of the throttle body significantly
obstructs the airflow into the throttle body, and so
there's a significant drop in air pressure across the
butterfly...but when the butterfly is open, the manifold
vacuum extends all the way through the air-intake system)

Well, anyways, a section of the air ductwork was made
of rubber, and molded like a soda straw that has a
mechanical "bend" point...and in one of the crevices,
dry rot and vibration caused an air leak. So with a
sudden throttle position change, the vacuum behind the
crack increased suddenly, and a bunch of air would
rush in through the crack, bypassing the MAF, and so
the mixture would suddenly get REAL lean--engine RPM's
would drop significantly, manifold vacuum dropped,
the crack closed, the MAF would be sending accurate
readings, air-fuel mixture went back to spec, the
engine would rev, increasing manifold vacuum, starting
the whole cycle all over again.

I could still accelerate, just VERY slowly.

A couple feet of duct tape solved the problem. :-)

>> By different means, a dirty air filter can also cause
>> an overly rich mixture.
>>     
>
> Air filter looks clean and was just changed less than 3Kmi ago.
>> 75,000 miles is getting up there.
>>     
>
> Two of my prior cars were at 120Kmi and 140Kmi when they
> were totalled by collision.
>
>   
I hear you... my current car has 131kmi on it, and the
oil consumption is what I would expect from an engine
with only 20kmi.

What I meant was 75,000 is getting to the point where
if any "regular services" which are recommended at
intervals of 40,000 or less start to cause problems
if they have been neglected.

Back in college, I had a friend with a Honda Civic...
the body was heavily rusted. The engine had 200,000
on it and was still going strong. At the time, that
sort of lifetime was extremely rare for an engine
made in Michigan, but he told me that it wasn't
uncommon for the Honda engines.
>> When was the last time the following services were performed:
>>     
>
>   
>> Fuel Filter Replacement
>>     
> 1Kmi after start of problem, and 1Kmi before now
>
>   

Wow.

>> Spark Plugs Clean and Re-gap OR Replace and re-gap
>> Spark Plug Wires Replace
>> PCV valve Clean or Replace
>>     
>
> 60Kmi (15Kmi ago)
>
>   
>> Throttle Body Clean
>
> unknown

Probably unrelated. It's a fairly simple procedure
if you want to do it yourself -- a can of throttle
body cleaner is cheap, like $5, making the main cost
to be nothing more than time. No special tools nor
expertise is required. In contrast, having it done
by a mechanic will cost $50 or more. I had it done
once at a quick oil change place, and it was $60.
As the vehicle was my first fuel injected engine, I
paid for it because I didn't know anything about
the procedure.

I had it done by a mechanic at an oil filter place
once, and it provided an immediate and significant
improvement. Engine idle smoothed out as soon as
the procedure was done, as well as power output.

Basically, you take the air duct off of the intake
of the throttle body, and first brush out some of
the major crud which has accumulated inside the
throttle body. Once that is done, the procedure
consists of introducing throttle body cleaner into
the throttle body while the engine is running.

The engine will race when the large quantities of
cleaner are introduced (it's similar to fuel).
The can I got says to open up the butterfly valve
and spray inside the throttle body for 10 seconds,
then let the engine run for 10 seconds, and repeat
until the can is used up. With my engine, that
turned out to be rather impractical -- the engine
really revved when I tried to do that, and without
a tach, I was afraid of redlining it by introducing
so much of this stuff while the butterfly was
open at the same time. And when the fan would
kick in, the hot air would blow back towards the
throttle body, and the engine would stall for
lack of power. So every time it stalled, I would
give a 10-seconds spray while the engine was
stopped. After a few repetitions, I observed a
significant reduction in the amount of crud on
the inside of the throttle body (most likely
condensates from the vaporized oil and whatever
else gets sucked out of the crankcase through the
PCV valve into the front of the throttle body).

In contrast, the guy at the quick oil change place
had a nifty little set-up, essentially some sort
of plastic tube and a flow-control valve (think
of an IV drip in a hospital), with the open end
of the tube attached just inside the throttle
body opening, or perhaps even poked just past
the butterfly valve.

Doing the operation myself took me about 3 hours
(although it would probably be maybe 60-90 min
when I do it the next time). Oil shop guy did
it in 30-45 minutes. The price difference was
significant however. The oil shop charged $60.
Doing it myself cost me $5 and a few paper towels.

If you do it yourself, do NOT use carburetor
cleaner. The price difference between carb
cleaner and the same size can of throttle
body cleaner is negligible -- so if carb cleaner
were appropriate for throttle bodies, I would
think that it would just be called carb and
throttle body cleaner. Since it isn't, I'm
going on the assumption that the two products
are similar, but different in some important way.
>
>> Air Filter Replace
>>     
>
> 72Kmi (3Kmi ago)
>
>   
>> Spark plugs are cheap ($2 each), so I replace those ever
>> 12-24 months. Aging spark plug wires can result in weak
>> ignition, even if you don't have any misfiring.
>>     
>
> Unfortunately the Saturn plugs are difficult to get at to replace.
>
So it's probably been a long time. I'm going to be out
of town for the next two weeks, but if you want, I can
take a look at it when you get back. Sometimes there
are amazingly simple (but non-obvious) ways of getting
to hard-to-reach spark plugs.

The Fiero was notorious in this respect -- undo an
engine mount and rock the engine forward. Then
someone realized that you could take a rear tire
off, and then another couple of bolts would allow
the wheel well skirt to be removed, and you would
be staring right at the spark plugs.

A similar trick might be possible with your vehicle.

>> A gummed up PCV valve allows the inside of the engine block
>> to hold high pressure gases (and also lots of nasty stuff
>> that you don't want in your oil).
>>     
>
>   
>> Fuel filter... it's amazing how a used up fuel filter can
>> rob you of both mileage and power. I'm not sure if it could
>> cause overly rich readings, however.
>>     
>
> As this was actually overdue for replacement,
> it was replaced first,
> but I would expect a clogged fuel filter to restrict fuel flow
> and behave like a "fuel starvation" lean injection.
>
> Still investigating,
>   





From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Sep 27 09:59:36 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:59:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>
	<20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <20070927095936.243e6151@Nokia-N800-26>

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:36:20 -0400 (EDT)
Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:

> Aaron,
> 
> > Bigger question... what exactly is the car doing that is
> > driving (heh!) you to monitor its behavior so obsessively?
> 
> The car is a Saturn SL2 2001 with 75Kmi.
> 
> In late July, I had new tires put on the car.
> The prior tires were Firestones with 75Kmi on them.
> The new tires are same radius Cooper tires.
> 
> As always, I kept track of gas mileage,
> and expected to lose a percent or two simply
> due to widing of tire with new tread.
> 
> The actual gas mileage dropped from about 30mpg to 25mpg (~20%).
> The car also seemed to be struggling up some hills I remember
> having no trouble climbing and otherwise appearing slightly
> "sluggish". After a second tank of gas confirmed the mileage drop,
> 
> I tried pressurizing the tires to 4psi over the door plate figure,
> as the old tires had been.  There was no noticeable change.
> 
> I was too busy trying to satisfy a long-hours job, and so couldn't
> readily take the car to the mechanic until about 1month had passed.
> I confirmed the presence of adequage oil, transmission fluid, coolant,
> and my inexpert eye could not find any disconnected/broken
> hoses/clamps/...
> 
> Taking a coworker to lunch on M-59, the speed topped out at 45mph
> and the tach was ~4000rpm.  I scheduled to take it to the mechanic
> the next day.  On the return trip, the speed topped out at 15mph,
> with everything I could think of to reduce engine load.
> A few days before, on the weekend, I'd used it with only slight
> sluggishness compared to pre-July performance at Detroit highway
> speeds.
> 
> I dropped my coworker off and took it directly to the mechanic.
> Enroute to the mechanic, I tried pushing the accelerator to the
> floor (when traffic permitted) to engage the "flood mode" switch
> that leaned the fuel injection (to permit starting when flooded).
> After three such operations, the cars top speed climbed to 45mph
> at which I made it to the mechanic.
> 
> The mechanic originally said the computer reported multiple
> trouble codes (the MEL was NOT lit), and that the transaxle output
> speed sensor was not reporting.  The mechanic assumed that
> most drivers would not have noticed that the speedometer was
> reporting 0mph.  I would have noticed a speedometer reporting 0
> and did not at anytime see such.
> 
> The next day, the mechanic said that the speed sensor was working
> and the misdiagnosis was due to misuse of the monitoring equipment.
> They did change the fuel filter (which was already reported to
> need replacement (50% blocked) when next convenient).  The
> mechanic reported that the car behaved fine in multiple test drives
> and they could find nothing wrong.  The mechanic recommended that
> I merely watch the car until I could learn something deterministic.
> 
> The mechanic did suggest watching the transmission change points
> and said the torque converter should be bypassed at 47mph.
> 
> Since then, despite the time limits of the above-mentioned job,
> I stepped up my long-planned efforts to install a modem (already
> assembled) in the car and begin monitoring (planned for baseline
> measures, now unfortunately for diagnostics).
> 
> I have found that its misbehavior is intermittent,
> usually but not always when the outside air temperature (not the
> engine) is hot.  (Driving the car in the cool morning, cool evening,
> on a cloudy day, or after sitting in the shade, it seldom misbehaves.
> After sitting on a hot parking lot on a sunny day, it frequently
> but not always misbehaves.)
> 
> When it misbehaves, the tach rises above 3000rpm without downshifting.
> When it is not misbehaving, it seems less peppy than I remember,
> and it takes several times as long to accelerate to I-75 speed,
> as I remember when I was commuting daily to/from downtown.
> 
> At no time have I seen the MEL lit, nor have I found any trouble
> codes in the queue.  I've been unable to identify conditions
> under which it reliably misbehaves.
> 
> I've verified accurate dashboard speedometer reading with a
> gps receiver on several occasions.  On two occasions, when
> I had neither palm nor gps, I observed my dashboard speedometer
> reporting less than posted speed while keeping up with traffic
> (once on M-59 and once on I-75).
> 
> The monitoring tool is OBD-Gauge running on a salvage (for 5$,
> suffers total amnesia every few days) Palm.  It reports and graphs
> (not uploadable) throttle position, tachometer, vehicle speed,
> calculated load, ignition advance, coolant temperature,
> manifold air pressure, short term fuel trim, long term fuel trim,
> manifold air temperature, oxygen sensor (pre-catalytic),
> oxygen sensor (post catalytic).  I understand 0 fuel trim
> indicates stoich burning; negative readings like I see,
> indicate rich mixture.
> 
> 		    normal observation		misbehaving
> tachometer:	    2000-3000			2500-3500
> vehicle speed:	    (matches speedometer)	(matches
> speedometer) calculated load:    ~33 in drive with brake	
> 		    ~25 in park
> coolant temp:	    ambient->95<->105oC		same
> manifold aid press: ~100KPa engine off
> 		    ~40KPa idling
> 		    ~20KPa under load
> oxygen sensors:	    250-750mV (almost white noise) same
> short fuel trim:    ~0 to -40/99 averages -13	same
> long fuel trim:	    ~0 to -23/99 averages -9    same
> 
> On one occasion, I observed an OBD vehicle speed of 0, while the
> car was in motion, and the dashboard speedometer was apparently
> reading correctly.  (This may have been loss of data cable
> connection.)
> 
> Reporting,

Dr. Meier,
	My suggestion to you is to find a mechanic/shop you can trust;
either by recommendations or good means; that is familiar with your
vehicle. That may or may not be a dealer shop, you get what you pay for.

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter The Plumber sm on the Road


From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Wed Sep  5 00:52:31 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:52:31 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330706011943s6a3dca3n7b9fc7affd085830@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705311915j30e631dclae8180e67ddef09d@mail.gmail.com>	<465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>	<4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330706011943s6a3dca3n7b9fc7affd085830@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46DE360F.4050007@HotPOP.com>

Wolfger wrote:
>> Bill Gates one of the most powerful people in the world? I wonder what
>> would happen if he got busted for DUI a couple of times? We could ask
>> Paris Hilton, when she gets out of the slam. She's pretty rich.
> 
> Paris Hilton was given a slap on the wrist for DUI (probation) and a
> slightly harder slap on the wrist for violating probation. A sentence
> which, by the way, was cut in half for "good behavior" before she even
> started serving the sentence.
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/2007/05/17/wtf-what-happened-to-no-special-treatment/
> 
> ...and she's not even a fraction of the wealth/power of Mr. Gates. If
> you'll recall correctly, Bill's company was found guilty of some very
> hefty charges here in the USA about... 7 years ago. To the best of my
> knowledge the punishment was never administered at all.
> 
> 

If he doesn't watch his step, soon someone will get sick of his ****
enough that they'll administer their own special, extra-judicial
form of punishment.

The man has a track record of destroying peoples' lives by theft,
fraud, and intimidation.




From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Wed Sep  5 00:41:18 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:41:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <465D69A2.6000208@impelind.com>
References: <20070506.084003.725.1273868@webmail18.lax.untd.com>	<46415307.5070107@hotpop.com>	<200705230128.l4N1SmZb022778@freehold.wwnet.com>	<4657984C.3040408@hotpop.com>	<200705291448.l4TEmsa1008525@freehold.wwnet.com>	<9199bfb0705290756h5c5aca3m55b95e85eda9650@mail.gmail.com>	<465C4BA9.5070800@sbcglobal.net>	<465C4E73.2070203@impelind.com>	<465C7054.5090107@sbcglobal.net>	<465C7C57.7030202@impelind.com>	<3b00b3330705300446o7fb8663fu3c19541e6e0d91a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<465D69A2.6000208@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <46DE336E.5060108@HotPOP.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> Wolfger wrote:
>> On 5/29/07, Robert Adkins <radkins at impelind.com> wrote:
>>
>>   
>>> Wars are great the economy of a
>>> nation involved in one, especially if they are winning the war, due to
>>> greater numbers and better manufacturing capability.
>>>     
>> <sarcasm>Oh, yeah... This ongoing war in Iraq is just sending our
>> economy through the roof!</sarcasm> And just look at the great job
>> market in Iraq! That is, if you don't mind risking your life.
>>   
>     The Iraq War isn't anywhere near the scale of WWII.
> 
>     In certain parts of the country, the economy is certainly booming 
> due to the Iraq War. There's a new military vehicle that is built at a 
> plant somewhere in the south. (I heard a story about it on NPR.) It's 
> called the MRAP and the company building it has increased it's size 
> exponentially since the start of the Iraq War.
> 
>     If the Iraq War was on the scale of WWII, then we'd be seeing a far 
> greater boost to the overall economy.
> 
>>>     Unless you want to ignore the historical realities of World War II...
>>>     
>> I guess you want to ignore the not-so-historical realities of the Iraq War.
>> Nobody says it better than the standard stock market disclaimer:
>> "Past performance is not a guarantee of future results."
>> Just because WWII was good for the economy, doesn't mean every war will be.
>>   
>     Unless you want to ignore the scale of the conflict...
> 

That's the biggest, STUPIDEST myth ever told.

If war were so great for the economy, then why shouldn't we just
have a permanent war-time economy, and have the Air Force and Army
go around blowing stuff up all over the country every day....by your
theory, we would be in economic nirvana within months.

The only reason WW2 was good for the economy is because we were
EXPORTING stuff like crazy to the British and the Russians, and
getting tangible payment (gold) in return.  Our OWN participation
in the war was no better for the economy than any other war is good
for the economy of a belligerant nation (i.e. investing lots of
labor and material into stuff that gets destroyed sooner rather
than later is sound economics only to absolute fools).

Wars are a terrible drain on any nation...the only reason to fight
them is when the cost of NOT fighting is even higher (as is the
current case).




From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Sep  5 13:31:09 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:31:09 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DE336E.5060108@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>


> 
> That's the biggest, STUPIDEST myth ever told.
> 

  I read this and then ignored the rest. If you were providing more than
just insults, you just "wasted electrons".

  If all you want to do is insult people, keep on doing that, just don't
expect me to ignore the fact that I can put a rule in my mailserver or
client to drop/bounce all messages from you.

  Regards,
  Rob

  P.S. I take it that your recent flurry of responses means you might be
back in the states? If so, welcome home.

  



From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Wed Sep  5 22:10:25 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:10:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>

Robert Adkins wrote:
>> That's the biggest, STUPIDEST myth ever told.
>>
> 
>   I read this and then ignored the rest. If you were providing more than
> just insults, you just "wasted electrons".
> 

Since when is characterization of false information as such
a personal attack?


>   If all you want to do is insult people, keep on doing that, just don't
> expect me to ignore the fact that I can put a rule in my mailserver or
> client to drop/bounce all messages from you.
> 

It's so typical of a certain political ideology to deliberately
remain ignorant if it hurts their feelings.

It's so sad that you've drunk the kool-aid.



From driveray at ameritech.net  Wed Sep  5 22:31:13 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:31:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>
	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:

> 
> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to ...

Just one?


From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Wed Sep  5 23:00:45 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:00:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
	<46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>

Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> 
>> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to ...
> 
> Just one?

That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
(and carries out of such threats) to reject applications
for/cancel/withhold academic research funds and all sorts of
other similar crimes and acts of intimidation when confronted
with people who and messages which contradict their beliefs,
rather than (heaven forbid) debate the issues.  Instead of
debates on issues, they hold "forums" (in which all of the
speakers toe the party line).

So, yes, at least in the USA, it is ONE political
ideology's adherents who routinely engage in this sort
of behavior.  And it's doubly ironic that they're the ones
who usually whine about their free speech being abridged
when those from the other side do nothing more than to
exercise their right to free speech, by expressing
messages which contradict that of this one ideology.

Now, if you want to go into religious ideologies, there's
a lot more than just one... and many of them have and will
go all the way to death sentances for contradicting them.




From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Sep  5 23:06:14 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:06:14 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>	<46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
> shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
> (and carries out of such threats) to reject applications
> for/cancel/withhold academic research funds and all sorts of
> other similar crimes and acts of intimidation when confronted
> with people who and messages which contradict their beliefs,
> rather than (heaven forbid) debate the issues.  Instead of
> debates on issues, they hold "forums" (in which all of the
> speakers toe the party line).
>
> So, yes, at least in the USA, it is ONE political
> ideology's adherents who routinely engage in this sort
> of behavior.  And it's doubly ironic that they're the ones
> who usually whine about their free speech being abridged
> when those from the other side do nothing more than to
> exercise their right to free speech, by expressing
> messages which contradict that of this one ideology.
>   

The Republicans?  Because that sounds like them all over.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Thu Sep  6 02:03:25 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:03:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>	<46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
	<46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
>> shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
>> (and carries out of such threats) to reject applications
>> for/cancel/withhold academic research funds and all sorts of
>> other similar crimes and acts of intimidation when confronted
>> with people who and messages which contradict their beliefs,
>> rather than (heaven forbid) debate the issues.  Instead of
>> debates on issues, they hold "forums" (in which all of the
>> speakers toe the party line).
>>
>> So, yes, at least in the USA, it is ONE political
>> ideology's adherents who routinely engage in this sort
>> of behavior.  And it's doubly ironic that they're the ones
>> who usually whine about their free speech being abridged
>> when those from the other side do nothing more than to
>> exercise their right to free speech, by expressing
>> messages which contradict that of this one ideology.
>>   
> 
> The Republicans?  Because that sounds like them all over.
> 
Documentation?

(And no, I'm not a Republican)



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Sep  6 08:05:51 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:05:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <20070906120937.2B1EF1412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Kulkis
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:10 PM
> To: A place for members to discuss anything they want, 
> subjects not appropriate for any of the other lists.
> Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy 
> [Was: [mdlug] Automotive technical info ...]
> 
> Robert Adkins wrote:
> >> That's the biggest, STUPIDEST myth ever told.
> >>
> > 
> >   I read this and then ignored the rest. If you were providing more 
> > than just insults, you just "wasted electrons".
> > 
> 
> Since when is characterization of false information as such a 
> personal attack?
> 

	You could have said. "I disagree and here is why."

	I would have read what you wrote and may have learned something

	Instead, you open with an insult.
	
> 
> >   If all you want to do is insult people, keep on doing that, just 
> > don't expect me to ignore the fact that I can put a rule in my 
> > mailserver or client to drop/bounce all messages from you.
> > 
> 
> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to 
> deliberately remain ignorant if it hurts their feelings.
> 
> It's so sad that you've drunk the kool-aid.
> 

	....and you follow with additional insults.

	Just because you disagree with someone or feel they have some series
of facts wrong doesn't mean you now suddenly have a right to throw insults
around.

	There is no reason, on an otherwise friendly discussion mailing
list, to throw around petty insults or be outwardly rude towards one
another, even if there is strong disagreement over a topic of discussion. 

	Personally, I would rather stick to the topic of discussion than to
act rudely towards one another. This is because I am well aware that even
though I may strongly disagree with the personal beliefs of another member,
that other member still has something to contribute to discussions.

	If you want to make this political. Yes, I firmly believe that my
"liberal" view on mailing list etiquette is far superior to your
name-calling, rude, insulting "conservative" view. (Of course, the wise
person would replace both the terms "liberal" and "conservative" with the
word PERSONAL, because that is what it really is.)

	Do you understand this viewpoint?

	-Rob



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Sep  6 08:01:10 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:01:10 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] War & economy & demopublicans
In-Reply-To: <46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F66@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> Since when is characterization of false information as such
> a personal attack?

 A war is not good for the overall economy per se - that's the "broken
window fallacy", of course. But a war *can* be good for *parts* of an
economy, in the same way that a broken window is good for a glazier. For
example, U.S. oil companies are doing well these days. Wars also increase
government borrowing and spending, which pumps money into the economy,
leading to short-term positive effects. Kind of like a sugar rush,
including the after-effects.

 So Robert may have been guilty of being incomplete, but not guilty of
relaying the "STUPIDEST myth ever told".

> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to deliberately
> remain ignorant if it hurts their feelings.

 See my .sig. The members of *all political parties on Earth* are human.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                 (313) 227-2317

 "In an illustrative recent study, subjects were asked their opinion about
  a social welfare policy, which was described as being endorsed either by
   Democrats or by Republicans. Although the subjects sincerely believed
   that their responses were based on the objective merits of the policy,
   the major determinant of what they thought of the policy was in fact
  whether or not their favored political party was said to endorse it."
                - Paul Bloom and Deena Skolnick Weisberg
          (study at: http://content2.apa.org/journals/psp/85/5/808)
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Thu Sep  6 08:03:24 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:03:24 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F67@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> >> That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
> >> shouts down speakers...

> > The Republicans?  Because that sounds like them all over.
> > 
> Documentation?

 Gee, Aaron, you first. Shouldn't be hard, right?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                  (313) 227-2317

 "One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled
   long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no
 longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us.
  It is simply too painful to acknowledge - even to ourselves - that we've
                      been so credulous." - Carl Sagan
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From sorceror171 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  6 08:40:28 2007
From: sorceror171 at gmail.com (Raymond Ingles)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:40:28 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: [mdlug]
	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>
	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com> <46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com> <46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>
	<46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <a481fbf0709060540ufaa4777vcca165fd156a5d5b@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/6/07, Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote:
> Garry Stahl wrote:
> > Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> >> That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
> >> shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
[...]
> > The Republicans?  Because that sounds like them all over.
> >
> Documentation?

 Oddly enough, Aaron, you're the one who made the first accusation. It
would seem the onus is on *you* to back up *your* claims first, no?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                                (313) 227-2317

 "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from
     the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent
              disinclination to do so." - Douglas Adams


From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Sep  6 08:44:58 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:44:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com>	<46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>	<46DF6EA6.1000905@comcast.net>
	<46DF982D.2040702@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <46DFF64A.4000403@comcast.net>

Aaron Kulkis wrote:
> Documentation?
>
> (And no, I'm not a Republican)

Arresting protesters for anti Bush t-shirts, "free speech zones" far
from where any protest would be noticed.  Little things like that. 
Check any news archive. 

What I have seen is a strong polarization of the political "process".  A
strong "if you ain't for us you is again' us" attitude from both of the
major parties.  It rather destroys the possibility of reasonable
discourse.  Mind you it's nothing new any more.  It seems to have become
the political norm.  Reasonable disagreement is not met with reasonable
answers, you sic the secret service on them, or what cops you have. 

Being that I hold with neither of the major political parties I can say
without bias that I have seen more of this from the Republican camp than
the Democratic camp.  Specifically and in general the Bush
administration hold the attitude that any disagreement form it's stated
policy is nothing short of treason.

The reason for this many simply be that the Republicans having been the
party in power are more noticeable, and therefor protested against.  The
next couple of years will be telling.

They are failing to see that reasonable disagreement and discourse are
what prevents revolutions.  Revolutions are much messier affairs than
addressing the concerns of the people.


"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American
public." --/Theodore Roosevelt /

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From lnovak1 at ford.com  Thu Sep  6 09:45:49 2007
From: lnovak1 at ford.com (Novak, Louis (L.M.))
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:45:49 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>
	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>


Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
of President Bush?

Or one of his town-hall meetings?


-- 
Louis Novak  lnovak1 at ford.com   (313)248-6788 
Ford Motor Co., IT Learning & Organizational Development
Ask me about my Mercury Mariner Hybrid  




 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
>[mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Kulkis
>Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:01 PM
>To: A place for members to discuss anything they want,subjects 
>not appropriate for any of the other lists.
>Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: 
>[mdlug] Automotive technical info ...]
>
>Raymond McLaughlin wrote:
>> Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> 
>>> It's so typical of a certain political ideology to ...
>> 
>> Just one?
>
>That would be the ideology which routinely burns newspapers,
>shouts down speakers, physically attacks speakers, threatens
>(and carries out of such threats) to reject applications

... Deleted ...


From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Sep  6 11:51:55 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:51:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
Message-ID: <46E0221B.2010501@comcast.net>

Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
> of President Bush?
>
> Or one of his town-hall meetings?
>
>
>   
You mean the ones where he get peppered with the toughest of compliments?

No, food is expensive and I wish it to get fully processed.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From tesral at comcast.net  Thu Sep  6 11:53:01 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:53:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
Message-ID: <46E0225D.5060405@comcast.net>

Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
> of President Bush?
>   

The existence of a "free speech zone" implies that speech out side of it
is not free.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Sep  6 12:04:04 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:04:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E0225D.5060405@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070906160750.D12EB1412E@impelind.com>


> 
> Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> > Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public 
> appearance of 
> > President Bush?
> >   
> 
> The existence of a "free speech zone" implies that speech out 
> side of it is not free.
> 
> --
> Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.
> 

  Yep. The more people accept those zones, the greater the precedent that
our "Freedom" of speech is simply not worth the paper it is written upon.

	-Rob



From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Thu Sep  6 19:57:25 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:57:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E0221B.2010501@comcast.net>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
	<46E0221B.2010501@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46E093E5.2000509@HotPOP.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
>> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
>> of President Bush?
>>
>> Or one of his town-hall meetings?
>>
>>
>>   
> You mean the ones where he get peppered with the toughest of compliments?
> 

Just like every other president....


> No, food is expensive and I wish it to get fully processed.
> 




From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Thu Sep  6 19:56:45 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:56:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>
	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
Message-ID: <46E093BD.4070501@HotPOP.com>

Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
> of President Bush?
> 
> Or one of his town-hall meetings?


No different from Clinton's.

The Secret Service is non-paartisan equal opportunity harassment agency.




From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Thu Sep  6 19:59:13 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:59:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
 economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E0225D.5060405@comcast.net>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com>	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
	<46E0225D.5060405@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46E09451.3070700@HotPOP.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
>> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
>> of President Bush?
>>   
> 
> The existence of a "free speech zone" implies that speech out side of it
> is not free.
> 


It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.





From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Fri Sep  7 08:02:51 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:02:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E09451.3070700@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F71@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
> They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
> counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.

 Well, according to here:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones

 "Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free speech zone rules
 during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s"

 And just before that:

 "While free speech zones existed in limited forms prior to the Presidency
 of George W. Bush, it has been during Bush's presidency that their scope
 has been greatly expanded."

 Got a competing cite?

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317

 "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
 than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
                     - Eric Scott Raymond
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From lnovak1 at ford.com  Fri Sep  7 10:00:20 2007
From: lnovak1 at ford.com (Novak, Louis (L.M.))
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:00:20 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline
	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E093BD.4070501@HotPOP.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com><E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
	<46E093BD.4070501@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE67B@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>


Aaron wrote:
>No different from Clinton's.

You're wrong Aaron.

The Secret Service started using Free Speech Zones, relegating
protesters to a location far removed from the president, for
Bush. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Zone

Bush's Town Hall meetings are renowned for their stricter admission
Requirements.

I'll try not to let your ignorance on this point influence my
evaluation of your position on other political issues.


-- 
Louis Novak  lnovak1 at ford.com   (313)248-6788 
Ford Motor Co., IT Learning & Organizational Development
Ask me about my Mercury Mariner Hybrid  




 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
>[mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Kulkis
>Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 7:57 PM
>To: A place for members to discuss anything they want,subjects 
>not appropriate for any of the other lists.
>Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: 
>[mdlug] Automotive technical info ...]
>
>Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
>> Ever visited the 'free speech zones' (sic) at a public appearance
>> of President Bush?
>> 
>> Or one of his town-hall meetings?
>
>
>No different from Clinton's.
>
>The Secret Service is non-paartisan equal opportunity 
>harassment agency.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>mdlug-discuss mailing list
>mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
>http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss
>


From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Fri Sep  7 15:16:51 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:16:51 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs
 gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE67B@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
References: <20070905173453.CDD191412E@impelind.com>	<46DF6191.4060809@HotPOP.com><46DF6671.3050803@ameritech.net>	<46DF6D5D.2060902@HotPOP.com><E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE672@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>	<46E093BD.4070501@HotPOP.com>
	<E037466F30DD454FA3F82C941DFF92E10B4BE67B@na1fcm10.dearborn.ford.com>
Message-ID: <46E1A3A3.201@HotPOP.com>

Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> Aaron wrote:
>> No different from Clinton's.
> 
> You're wrong Aaron.
> 
> The Secret Service started using Free Speech Zones, relegating
> protesters to a location far removed from the president, for
> Bush. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Zone


In this case, the people editing the entry are either misinformed
or deliberately slanting the truth.

Here in Royal Oak, the owner of Noir Leather was harassed into
staying in the back of his store when Clinton made a campaign
stop on the back of a railroad car.  Noir Leather is hardly a
hotbed of anti-Democratic Party activity.

> 
> Bush's Town Hall meetings are renowned for their stricter admission
> Requirements.

Clinton had the same.

Or do you recall the woman who was arrested in the 1990's for
merely saying, "you suck!"

> 
> I'll try not to let your ignorance on this point influence my
> evaluation of your position on other political issues.
> 
> 




From radkins at impelind.com  Fri Sep  7 15:37:05 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:37:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs
	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E1A3A3.201@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <20070907194051.22EE71412E@impelind.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Kulkis
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:17 PM
> To: A place for members to discuss anything they want, 
> subjects not appropriate for any of the other lists.
> Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy 
> [Was: [mdlug] Automotive technical info ...]
> 
> Novak, Louis (L.M.) wrote:
> > Aaron wrote:
> >> No different from Clinton's.
> > 
> > You're wrong Aaron.
> > 
> > The Secret Service started using Free Speech Zones, relegating 
> > protesters to a location far removed from the president, for Bush. 
> > See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Zone
> 
> 
> In this case, the people editing the entry are either 
> misinformed or deliberately slanting the truth.
> 

	There are cited references for verification purposes. Wikipedia is
like a research paper, if you don't have a source, the words shouldn't be
strongly trusted.


> Here in Royal Oak, the owner of Noir Leather was harassed 
> into staying in the back of his store when Clinton made a 
> campaign stop on the back of a railroad car.  Noir Leather is 
> hardly a hotbed of anti-Democratic Party activity.
> 

	Find a source to cite and then add both to Wikipedia under that
topic. Help make the topic more accurate.

> > 
> > Bush's Town Hall meetings are renowned for their stricter admission 
> > Requirements.
> 
> Clinton had the same.
> 

	Find a source to cite this from and then add both to Wikipedia. Help
make that topic more accurate.

> Or do you recall the woman who was arrested in the 1990's for 
> merely saying, "you suck!"
> 

	Find a source to cite this from and then add both to Wikipedia. Help
make that topic more accurate.



	See the pattern forming?

	Sure, anyone can edit Wikipedia. However, entries with cited sources
are provided more weight by those who review edits and if the source if
reputable and can be verified, removing the additiona and source becomes far
less likely.

	Anyone who says they have a problem with whether or not everything
is or can ever be accurate within Wikipedia simply doesn't understand how
the system works. It's like in gradeschool when given a tasks to write a
report about topic x. If you wrote an awesome report and failed to put any
bibliographical information into the report, than you would have failed the
task, because nobody would be able to verify where you received the
information in the report.

	That same principle is in practice at Wikipedia. If you can't verify
it, then you shouldn't trust it. If you can verify it from more than one
source, chances are it is more accurate than something without cited
sources.

	-Rob



From akulkis3 at HotPOP.com  Fri Sep  7 15:14:55 2007
From: akulkis3 at HotPOP.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:14:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs
 gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F71@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F71@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46E1A32F.100@HotPOP.com>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Aaron Kulkis
> 
>> It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
>> They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
>> counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.
> 
>  Well, according to here:
> 
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones
> 
>  "Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free speech zone rules
>  during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s"
> 

Some students actually wanted to go to class and get an education.

Since the primary purpose of a university is to teach the classes
which the students are paying for, that was a proper thing to do,
so that students who choose to study can do so without being
harassed by nutjobs

>  And just before that:
> 
>  "While free speech zones existed in limited forms prior to the Presidency
>  of George W. Bush, it has been during Bush's presidency that their scope
>  has been greatly expanded."


The president doesn't run cities ... ANY cities.

And he certainly didn't set the rules in cities at the
opposition parties convention
> 
>  Got a competing cite?
> 
>  Sincerely,
> 
>  Ray Ingles                                          (313) 227-2317
> 
>  "[B]eing able to break security doesn't make you a hacker any more
>  than being able to hotwire cars makes you an automotive engineer."
>                      - Eric Scott Raymond
> The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug-discuss mailing list
> mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss
> 





From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Sep 10 08:45:39 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:45:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs
	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E1A32F.100@HotPOP.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F7D@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis
> Ingles, Raymond wrote:
> >> From: Aaron Kulkis
> > 
> >> It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
> >> They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
> >> counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.
> > 
> >  Well, according to here:
> > 
> >  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones
> > 
> >  "Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free 
> > speech zone rules during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s"
> 
> Some students actually wanted to go to class and get an education.

 Ah, I see. The "elites" you were referring to were the ones in favor of a
war, and they didn't want to hear anything from left-leaning protestors who
didn't like it. I can see how that is, like you claimed, *precisely the
ironic opposite* of the situation *today*.

 You made a claim about the origins of the practice of "free speech zones",
and when it was pointed out that the claim was false... you shifted to
*justifying* the practice without actually acknowledging that your orignal
claim was incorrect.
 
 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                   (313) 227-2317

            Welcome to America, Land of the Free
      (Some restrictions apply, void where prohibited.)
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From as4109 at wayne.edu  Mon Sep 10 20:43:52 2007
From: as4109 at wayne.edu (David Lee Lambert)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:43:52 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
Message-ID: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>

My wife and I had a child last week (picture as of 4 days old attached).  Here 
are some statistics about him:

Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez
Date of birth:  1188988980 (Unix timestamp, ?60)
Mass:  2.61 kg
Length: 48 cm
Gender:  Male


-- 
David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or 
<lamber45 at msu.edu>
GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt
-- 
David Lee Lambert (recent WSU grad) <as4109 at wayne.edu>
Cell phone:  +1 586-873-8813
Work email:  dlambert at bmtcarhaul.com
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: jesse-4day.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 11008 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070910/2cf7c567/attachment-0001.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070910/2cf7c567/attachment-0001.sig>

From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Sep 10 14:08:53 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:08:53 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol
 vs	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F7D@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F7D@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46E58835.1090406@hotpop.com>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: Aaron Kulkis
>> Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>>     
>>>> From: Aaron Kulkis
>>>>         
>>>> It wasn't the Republicans who invented this Orwellian idea....
>>>> They started in large (democratic party run) cities, to marginalize 
>>>> counter-protesters who disagree with the elites' agenda.
>>>>         
>>>  Well, according to here:
>>>
>>>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zones
>>>
>>>  "Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free 
>>> speech zone rules during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s"
>>>       
>> Some students actually wanted to go to class and get an education.
>>     
>
>  Ah, I see. The "elites" you were referring to were the ones in favor of a
> war, and they didn't want to hear anything from left-leaning protestors who
> didn't like it. I can see how that is, like you claimed, *precisely the
> ironic opposite* of the situation *today*.
>

When I was at Purdue, for example, there was no war, but protesting
was strictly limited to large open areas on the campus, such that the
presence of protesters would not block the path of those who wished
to simply go about their business.

>  You made a claim about the origins of the practice of "free speech zones",
> and when it was pointed out that the claim was false... you shifted to
> *justifying* the practice without actually acknowledging that your orignal
> claim was incorrect.
You want to talk about Slavery, Jim Crow laws, and the Democratic Party,
or would you prefer to stick with people who are actually.




From unforgiven24 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 21:19:46 2007
From: unforgiven24 at gmail.com (Mike Ward)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:19:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
In-Reply-To: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
References: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <5aa434200709101819m27535b9bhd9df4f02b0d7f94b@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations, David.

On 9/10/07, David Lee Lambert <as4109 at wayne.edu> wrote:
> My wife and I had a child last week (picture as of 4 days old attached).  Here
> are some statistics about him:
>
> Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez
> Date of birth:  1188988980 (Unix timestamp, ?60)
> Mass:  2.61 kg
> Length: 48 cm
> Gender:  Male
>
>
> --
> David Lee Lambert ... Software Developer
> Cell phone: +1 586-873-8813 ; alt. email <as4109 at wayne.edu> or
> <lamber45 at msu.edu>
> GPG key at http://www.lmert.com/keyring.txt
> --
> David Lee Lambert (recent WSU grad) <as4109 at wayne.edu>
> Cell phone:  +1 586-873-8813
> Work email:  dlambert at bmtcarhaul.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug-discuss mailing list
> mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss
>
>


From driveray at ameritech.net  Mon Sep 10 23:44:13 2007
From: driveray at ameritech.net (Raymond McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:44:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
In-Reply-To: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
References: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <46E60F0D.2070201@ameritech.net>

David Lee Lambert wrote:
> My wife and I had a child last week (picture as of 4 days old attached).  Here 
> are some statistics about him:
> 
> Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez
> Date of birth:  1188988980 (Unix timestamp, ?60)
> Mass:  2.61 kg
> Length: 48 cm
> Gender:  Male
> 

Congrats David!

Er... how did you get a binary past our de-mime agent?


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Sep 11 08:15:29 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:15:29 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
In-Reply-To: <200709102044.04262.as4109@wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F80@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: David Lee Lambert

> Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez

 Congratulations! That's a heck of a middle name, but at least you won't be
in our position, when we yell "Andrew" or "John" at a crowd of kids and three
boys look up. :->

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                        (313) 227-2317

 "The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts
  agree, is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer
    professionals. We cause accidents." - Nathaniel Borenstein
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From radkins at impelind.com  Tue Sep 11 08:17:15 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:17:15 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
In-Reply-To: <46E60F0D.2070201@ameritech.net>
Message-ID: <20070911122109.2CFBA1412E@impelind.com>

The de-mime agent probably just has a softspot for baby pictures...

-Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org 
> [mailto:mdlug-discuss-bounces at mdlug.org] On Behalf Of Raymond 
> McLaughlin
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:44 PM
> To: A place for members to discuss anything they want, 
> subjects not appropriate for any of the other lists.
> Subject: Re: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
> 
> David Lee Lambert wrote:
> > My wife and I had a child last week (picture as of 4 days old 
> > attached).  Here are some statistics about him:
> > 
> > Full name:  Jesse Tlatquihuac Lambert-S?nchez Date of birth:  
> > 1188988980 (Unix timestamp, ?60)
> > Mass:  2.61 kg
> > Length: 48 cm
> > Gender:  Male
> > 
> 
> Congrats David!
> 
> Er... how did you get a binary past our de-mime agent?
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug-discuss mailing list
> mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss
> 



From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Sep 11 08:36:46 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:36:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol
	vs	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46E58835.1090406@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F81@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> >  You made a claim about the origins of the practice of "free speech zones",
> > and when it was pointed out that the claim was false... you shifted to
> > *justifying* the practice without actually acknowledging that your orignal
> > claim was incorrect.

> You want to talk about Slavery, Jim Crow laws, and the Democratic Party,
> or would you prefer to stick with people who are actually.

 ...and then you bring up irrelevant side topics. I have to say, it reminds me
of an octopus squirting ink as it retreats. *I* never claimed that the
Democratic Party was pure as the driven snow... or even likeable on average.
*All* I did was point out that *your* claim was unsupported and apparently
without merit. You've done nothing to support it since. Oh, and you've not
documented your claims about "the ideology which routinely burns newspapers",
either.

 Arguendo, let's assume the Democratic Party is the direct puppet of Cthulhu
and the Elder Gods. Now explain how that makes you right about "free speech
zones".

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                    (313) 227-2317

  "...while several federal agencies acknowledge that they
   contribute names to the [secret blacklist of people not
  allowed to fly on commercial flights], none of them, when
 contacted by The Chronicle, could or would say which agency
   is responsible for managing the list." - S.F. Chronicle
The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it.


From gib at juno.com  Tue Sep 11 10:02:11 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:02:11 GMT
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] It's a boy
Message-ID: <20070911.100211.19529.1@webmail15.vgs.untd.com>

 
What kind of throughput are ya gettin' on that  . . . ah, oh, wait nevermind. 

_____________________________________________________________
Click for free info on rehab treatments for drug &amp; alcohol dependency.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifcCGuff473reve6Kz5QjiIUVuFYxMx1tvgXorbAPRxW6vcg/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070911/97a8eba9/attachment-0001.html>

From tesral at comcast.net  Tue Sep 11 12:19:19 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:19:19 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss]
 Ethanol	vs	gasoline	economy	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F81@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33F81@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46E6C007.3090907@comcast.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>  Arguendo, let's assume the Democratic Party is the direct puppet of Cthulhu and the Elder Gods. 

Not all of them, Narlothep has the Republicans.  I think Dick Cheny is
his avatar.  I think Azoroth has the Greens.  It would explain many
things, you must admit.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From audiotech50 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 14 01:24:12 2007
From: audiotech50 at gmail.com (Michael Rudas)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:24:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] OT: MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video
Message-ID: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>

I have NEVER seen the like of this MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video-- it's
both funny and horrifying at the same time.  Market droids were sure
wacky in the late '80s.  Cocaine addiction is a terrible thing!  Of
course ANYTHING was better than MS-DOS 4...

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmEvPZUdAVI>

-- Mikey


From tesral at comcast.net  Fri Sep 14 01:51:55 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:51:55 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] OT: MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46EA217B.7020101@comcast.net>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> I have NEVER seen the like of this MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video-- it's
> both funny and horrifying at the same time.  Market droids were sure
> wacky in the late '80s.  Cocaine addiction is a terrible thing!  Of
> course ANYTHING was better than MS-DOS 4...
>   

Apple basic....


I'm sad to say that it looks like Russia will be adopting Vista.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From akulkis at hotpop.com  Fri Sep 14 01:38:25 2007
From: akulkis at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:38:25 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] OT: MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video
In-Reply-To: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46EA1E51.3000408@hotpop.com>

Michael Rudas wrote:
> I have NEVER seen the like of this MS-DOS 5.0 Rap sales video-- it's
> both funny and horrifying at the same time.  Market droids were sure
> wacky in the late '80s.  Cocaine addiction is a terrible thing!  Of
> course ANYTHING was better than MS-DOS 4...
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmEvPZUdAVI>
>   

I hope everyone who participated in the production
this thing was taken out to a remote field and shot --
especially the director :-P who deserves a whole
belt of ammunition.... The "instructor" team is
hokey...but the behavior and reactions of the two
tech-support "students" (idiot-like facial expressions,
and head gestures) are just plain insipid.

What's scary, is the information on the youtube page indicates
that MS actually DISTRIBUTED this garbage to VAR's...and scarier
still is that business people actually bought into it.




From dobwan at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 15 08:35:21 2007
From: dobwan at earthlink.net (Duane Brown)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 08:35:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] OT: Caldera DR-Dos sighting
In-Reply-To: <46EA1E51.3000408@hotpop.com>
References: <b67fb0380709132224v3ca6d7d8qb775567bb23cc0db@mail.gmail.com>
	<46EA1E51.3000408@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <46EBD189.6010504@earthlink.net>

seeing the mention of MS-DOS reminded me of something

The other day while working out at the Y one of the workout machines was 
having a problem. On the boot up screen "Caldera DR-DOS" was complaining 
about not being able to reach the server. It just goes to show you that 
what you write and implement today may still be in use many years into 
the future.

Duane


From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Sep 16 15:42:46 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:42:46 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
Message-ID: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>

OK, check this one out.  I might be replacing my water heater at the
least.  Converting the house to hot water heat might not be cost
effective, but wow.  A twelve inch tube that can replace your house's
boiler, and to be on the market in 18 months?  Efficiency is the key
here.  You get out 150 -200% more than you put in.  Better, it's been
proven, this is no cold fusion.  The article even is a diagram of the thing.

<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=481996&in_page_id=1965>

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From wolfger at gmail.com  Sun Sep 16 17:35:01 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:35:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/16/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> OK, check this one out.  I might be replacing my water heater at the
> least.  Converting the house to hot water heat might not be cost
> effective, but wow.  A twelve inch tube that can replace your house's
> boiler, and to be on the market in 18 months?  Efficiency is the key
> here.  You get out 150 -200% more than you put in.


There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy out
than you put in.
And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain
exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070916/105cf88d/attachment-0001.html>

From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Sep 16 17:45:41 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:45:41 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
	<3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>

Wolfger wrote:
>
> There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
> Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
> You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy
> out than you put in.
> And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain
> exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.

Yet it has been tested and does work.  Ergo, the process is working
differently that is understood.

I will point out the bumblebee problem.  While it has been solved, for
many years it was assumed that bumblebees could not fly.  Bumblebees
being devoid of the knowledge of physics, kept flying.  Eventual it was
discovered that the bumblebees were not breaking the laws of physics
after all.  The problem was we didn't understand the laws.

The are getting more energy out that in, electrical energy in.  Ergo the
energy is coming from somewhere else.  A catalyst is mentioned in
there.  Another reaction is happening aided by the catalyst and  the
electrical input.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From gib at juno.com  Sun Sep 16 19:16:18 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 23:16:18 GMT
Subject: [mdlug-discuss]  The Hell you say? More energy out than in
Message-ID: <20070916.191618.24928.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com>


Well, I don't think a heater has to get more energy out than in to be effective.  Look a how a tree grabs sunlight and converts it.  So, why can't a heater obtain heat to be redistributed?

Please note: message attached


_____________________________________________________________
Be your own boss today! Go to Technical School. Click here.
http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigla9ZgaXofwZYYKXNokOGtnB6dPYzv8hcZc6swPMYHS6nxB/

-------------- next part --------------
On 9/16/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> OK, check this one out.  I might be replacing my water heater at the
> least.  Converting the house to hot water heat might not be cost
> effective, but wow.  A twelve inch tube that can replace your house's
> boiler, and to be on the market in 18 months?  Efficiency is the key
> here.  You get out 150 -200% more than you put in.


There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy out
than you put in.
And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain
exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070916/d415eaeb/attachment-0001.html>

From wolfger at gmail.com  Sun Sep 16 19:52:13 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:52:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
	<3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
	<46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330709161652s3738e72bi7cfac8aa9ad4d3f9@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/16/07, Garry Stahl <tesral at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> The are getting more energy out that in, electrical energy in.  Ergo the
> energy is coming from somewhere else.  A catalyst is mentioned in
> there.  Another reaction is happening aided by the catalyst and  the
> electrical input.
>

Right. There is more than one form of energy input here. So there is some
chemical energy, which means a catalyst of some sort that will need
replacing at certain intervals. Unfortunately, they're keeping the catalyst
"closed source", so it's impossible to determine if this "fantastic" new
heater that "puts out more energy than it takes in" is actually cost
effective, but judging by the wording in the press release (the "we don't
even know how it works" line really gets me), this is going to be more hype
than breakthrough.

... hope I'm wrong.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Ekiga: wolfger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mdlug.org/pipermail/mdlug-discuss/attachments/20070916/2442ba6a/attachment-0001.html>

From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Sun Sep 16 20:52:04 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen majorovic)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:52:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>	<3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
	<46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46EDCFB4.7030901@sbcglobal.net>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> Wolfger wrote:
>   
>> There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
>> Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
>> You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy
>> out than you put in.
>> And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain
>> exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.
>>     
>
> Yet it has been tested and does work.  Ergo, the process is working
> differently that is understood.
>
> I will point out the bumblebee problem.  While it has been solved, for
> many years it was assumed that bumblebees could not fly.  Bumblebees
> being devoid of the knowledge of physics, kept flying.  Eventual it was
> discovered that the bumblebees were not breaking the laws of physics
> after all.  The problem was we didn't understand the laws.
>
> The are getting more energy out that in, electrical energy in.  Ergo the
> energy is coming from somewhere else.  A catalyst is mentioned in
> there.  Another reaction is happening aided by the catalyst and  the
> electrical input.
>   
The difference between over-unity devices and bumblebees is that it 
isn't hard to find examples of flying bumblebees which casts some doubt 
on the accuracy of aerodynamic theory used to prove that bumblebees 
can't fly. There's no such problem with the laws of thermodynamics since 
no one's displayed a working over-unity device.

If the guy claims he has a working gadget and wants to commit science 
he's got to figure out how to have a disinterested party replicate his 
results. Preferably multiple, disinterested parties since ignoring the 
laws of thermodynamics definitely comes under the heading of 
"extraordinary claims" which require extraordinary proof.

The possibilities are A) the guy's stumbled upon a completely unknown 
branch of chemistry which seems to ignore the laws of thermodynamics, B) 
he's mistaken, C) he's a fraud. Are there any other possibilities?

Since he's got a unit that he says works, I think "B" isn't likely which 
leaves "A" or "C".

Allen




From drew4096 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 16 20:59:11 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:59:11 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say?
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330709161652s3738e72bi7cfac8aa9ad4d3f9@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <46ED8736.7060702@comcast.net>
	<3b00b3330709161435g2fc36590gc5145836bbc9102a@mail.gmail.com>
	<46EDA405.7070000@comcast.net>
	<3b00b3330709161652s3738e72bi7cfac8aa9ad4d3f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20070916205734.02f5bdd0@pop.gmail.com>

     In fact, there *are*, and have long been, devices that provide more
heating than the purchased energy that they consume. They are called
heat pumps, and are really air conditioners mounted backwards. Typical
air conditioners move around 5 times as much heat as they use electricity,
and all of it within the laws of thermodynamics.

     You see, the maximum possible efficiency of a heat moving device is
the absolute-scale low temperature divided by the temperature difference,
and in most climates the difference is small compared to the temperatures
themselves. For example, if it's 32 degrees F. outside and you're heating
the house to 80 degrees F., the absolute temperatures being 273 K and
300 K, the maximum possible efficiency will be 273K/27K, or just over 10.
So, getting twice as much heating out, or even five times as much, is
actually rather dismal performance.

     The rub is that the maximum possible efficiency for a heat *engine*
is the temperature difference divided by the absolute-scale *high*
temperature. So that if you try to run a combo heat pump/engine, the
total performance coefficient will be the low divided by the high, and
since the low is always less than the high, the heat engine can never
produce enough power to keep the heat pump going.


     I gather, though, that this is not supposed to be a heat pump. If it
*is* _creating_ the heat out of nothing, then the important question
becomes, how high a temperature can be achieved at the hot end while still
putting out double its input. Generators being around 85% efficient (and
newer ones may do better for all I know), if the hot end can get to
2 * 273K / 0.85 = 642K, or almost 700 degrees F, it can reach breakeven
in conjunction with a heat engine.

     Additional note: Cold (or hot, for that matter) fusion would also be
within the laws of thermodynamics. Hydrogen (usually heavy) is turned into
helium in the process, and it would presumably be more difficult to turn
the helium back into hydrogen than what you got out of the first process.
But while it takes at least 60598 BTUs, and possibly a bit more, to pull
a pound of hydrogen out of water, and even more if you're stuck with a
machine that needs heavy isotopes of hydrogen, turning that pound of
hydrogen into helium would release around 300 *billion* BTUs. So for any
practical purpose short of interstellar travel, a fusion reactor would
be just as good as a perpetual motion machine. The only difference is
that the fusion reactor can't be accused of violating any physical laws.


----

  - Drew.


    "When I went to school, they taught me to honor the Flag, vote the
     straight party ticket, and believe in the law of conservation of
     energy."
                 - Lazarus Long.



From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Mon Sep 17 01:22:06 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 01:22:06 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] The Hell you say? More energy out than in
In-Reply-To: <20070916.191618.24928.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com>
References: <20070916.191618.24928.0@webmail03.vgs.untd.com>
Message-ID: <46EE0EFE.1070909@hotpop.com>

gib at juno.com wrote:
> Well, I don't think a heater has to get more energy out than in to be effective.  Look a how a tree grabs sunlight and converts it.  So, why can't a heater obtain heat to be redistributed?
>
>   

Chlorophyll is a well known light->chemical energy converter, which
produces less chemical energy than the energy of the light absorbed.

> Please note: message attached
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Be your own boss today! Go to Technical School. Click here.
> http://3rdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iigla9ZgaXofwZYYKXNokOGtnB6dPYzv8hcZc6swPMYHS6nxB/
>
>   
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On 9/16/07, *Garry Stahl* <tesral at comcast.net 
> <mailto:tesral at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
>     OK, check this one out.  I might be replacing my water heater at the
>     least.  Converting the house to hot water heat might not be cost
>     effective, but wow.  A twelve inch tube that can replace your house's
>     boiler, and to be on the market in 18 months?  Efficiency is the key
>     here.  You get out 150 -200% more than you put in. 
>
>
> There's no such thing as better than 100% efficiency.
> Hell... I've never even heard of 100% efficiency.
> You can't cheat physics. It's simply not possible to get more energy 
> out than you put in.
> And the phrase "Even the makers of the device are at a loss to explain 
> exactly how it works" is a GIGANTIC red flag.
>
> -- 
> Wolfger
> http://wolfger.wordpress.com/ <http://wolfger.wordpress.com/>
> AOL IM: wolf4coyot
> Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
> Ekiga: wolfger
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> mdlug-discuss mailing list
> mdlug-discuss at mdlug.org
> http://mdlug.org/mailman/listinfo/mdlug-discuss





From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Sep 24 23:17:35 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:17:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
Message-ID: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>

OBD-II users,

I know that we have some OBD-II enthusiasts and automotive experts.

Due to intermittent misbehavior by my car,
I've begun using an OBD-II modem and Palm Device to monitor my cars operation.

Unfortunately, I cannot yet recognize anomalous behavior.

Does anyone have any familiarity with normal OBD-II readings?

Are long and short time fuel trim normally rich (~-13% +/- 7%)?
Is calculated load normally ~33% in reverse with brake on?
Is calculated load normally ~20% in park?

TIA,
-- 
Robert Meier

  "The liberties of our country are worth defending at all hazards. We have
   received them from our worthy ancestors; they purchased them for us with
   toil, treasure and blood. It will bring an everlasting infamy on the
   present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be
   wrested from us...or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and
   designing men."
	     -- Samuel Adams, 1771.


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 25 21:07:32 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:07:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <e9cc7f0a0709251807p72010c4eo3aff32dfe985cd14@mail.gmail.com>

On 9/24/07, Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> OBD-II users,
>Unfortunately, I cannot yet recognize anomalous behavior.
>
> Does anyone have any familiarity with normal OBD-II readings?
>
> Are long and short time fuel trim normally rich (~-13% +/- 7%)?
> Is calculated load normally ~33% in reverse with brake on?
> Is calculated load normally ~20% in park?
>

I don't know about the load.

My Fuel Trim readings start out in that range, but promptly level out
to within a couple of 128ths from stoich, sometimes going slightly
lean.

BTW: I've still to get any official word on what to do with these
numbers when calculating fuel flow rate. There are *two* short term
and *two* long term fuel trim numbers. Last test, I used about 8% more
fuel than my software tallied up.

----

- Drew.


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Tue Sep 25 09:24:23 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:24:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> OBD-II users,
>
> I know that we have some OBD-II enthusiasts and automotive experts.
>
> Due to intermittent misbehavior by my car,
> I've begun using an OBD-II modem and Palm Device to monitor my cars operation.
>
> Unfortunately, I cannot yet recognize anomalous behavior.
>
> Does anyone have any familiarity with normal OBD-II readings?
>
> Are long and short time fuel trim normally rich (~-13% +/- 7%)?
> Is calculated load normally ~33% in reverse with brake on?
> Is calculated load normally ~20% in park?
>
> TIA,
>   
Bigger question... what exactly is the car doing that is
driving (heh!) you to monitor its behavior so obsessively?

Symptoms might be identifiable enough that OBD data actually
confuses the issue (due to lack of familiarity with what
OBD readings are normal and what they indicate).






From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Sep 26 12:36:20 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:36:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com> (message from Aaron Kulkis on Tue, 
	25 Sep 2007 09:24:23 -0400)
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>

Aaron,

> Bigger question... what exactly is the car doing that is
> driving (heh!) you to monitor its behavior so obsessively?

The car is a Saturn SL2 2001 with 75Kmi.

In late July, I had new tires put on the car.
The prior tires were Firestones with 75Kmi on them.
The new tires are same radius Cooper tires.

As always, I kept track of gas mileage,
and expected to lose a percent or two simply
due to widing of tire with new tread.

The actual gas mileage dropped from about 30mpg to 25mpg (~20%).
The car also seemed to be struggling up some hills I remember
having no trouble climbing and otherwise appearing slightly "sluggish".
After a second tank of gas confirmed the mileage drop,

I tried pressurizing the tires to 4psi over the door plate figure,
as the old tires had been.  There was no noticeable change.

I was too busy trying to satisfy a long-hours job, and so couldn't
readily take the car to the mechanic until about 1month had passed.
I confirmed the presence of adequage oil, transmission fluid, coolant,
and my inexpert eye could not find any disconnected/broken hoses/clamps/...

Taking a coworker to lunch on M-59, the speed topped out at 45mph
and the tach was ~4000rpm.  I scheduled to take it to the mechanic
the next day.  On the return trip, the speed topped out at 15mph,
with everything I could think of to reduce engine load.
A few days before, on the weekend, I'd used it with only slight
sluggishness compared to pre-July performance at Detroit highway
speeds.

I dropped my coworker off and took it directly to the mechanic.
Enroute to the mechanic, I tried pushing the accelerator to the
floor (when traffic permitted) to engage the "flood mode" switch
that leaned the fuel injection (to permit starting when flooded).
After three such operations, the cars top speed climbed to 45mph
at which I made it to the mechanic.

The mechanic originally said the computer reported multiple
trouble codes (the MEL was NOT lit), and that the transaxle output
speed sensor was not reporting.  The mechanic assumed that
most drivers would not have noticed that the speedometer was
reporting 0mph.  I would have noticed a speedometer reporting 0
and did not at anytime see such.

The next day, the mechanic said that the speed sensor was working
and the misdiagnosis was due to misuse of the monitoring equipment.
They did change the fuel filter (which was already reported to
need replacement (50% blocked) when next convenient).  The
mechanic reported that the car behaved fine in multiple test drives
and they could find nothing wrong.  The mechanic recommended that
I merely watch the car until I could learn something deterministic.

The mechanic did suggest watching the transmission change points
and said the torque converter should be bypassed at 47mph.

Since then, despite the time limits of the above-mentioned job,
I stepped up my long-planned efforts to install a modem (already
assembled) in the car and begin monitoring (planned for baseline
measures, now unfortunately for diagnostics).

I have found that its misbehavior is intermittent,
usually but not always when the outside air temperature (not the engine)
is hot.  (Driving the car in the cool morning, cool evening, on
a cloudy day, or after sitting in the shade, it seldom misbehaves.
After sitting on a hot parking lot on a sunny day, it frequently
but not always misbehaves.)

When it misbehaves, the tach rises above 3000rpm without downshifting.
When it is not misbehaving, it seems less peppy than I remember,
and it takes several times as long to accelerate to I-75 speed,
as I remember when I was commuting daily to/from downtown.

At no time have I seen the MEL lit, nor have I found any trouble
codes in the queue.  I've been unable to identify conditions
under which it reliably misbehaves.

I've verified accurate dashboard speedometer reading with a
gps receiver on several occasions.  On two occasions, when
I had neither palm nor gps, I observed my dashboard speedometer
reporting less than posted speed while keeping up with traffic
(once on M-59 and once on I-75).

The monitoring tool is OBD-Gauge running on a salvage (for 5$,
suffers total amnesia every few days) Palm.  It reports and graphs
(not uploadable) throttle position, tachometer, vehicle speed,
calculated load, ignition advance, coolant temperature,
manifold air pressure, short term fuel trim, long term fuel trim,
manifold air temperature, oxygen sensor (pre-catalytic),
oxygen sensor (post catalytic).  I understand 0 fuel trim
indicates stoich burning; negative readings like I see,
indicate rich mixture.

		    normal observation		misbehaving
tachometer:	    2000-3000			2500-3500
vehicle speed:	    (matches speedometer)	(matches speedometer)
calculated load:    ~33 in drive with brake	
		    ~25 in park
coolant temp:	    ambient->95<->105oC		same
manifold aid press: ~100KPa engine off
		    ~40KPa idling
		    ~20KPa under load
oxygen sensors:	    250-750mV (almost white noise) same
short fuel trim:    ~0 to -40/99 averages -13	same
long fuel trim:	    ~0 to -23/99 averages -9    same

On one occasion, I observed an OBD vehicle speed of 0, while the
car was in motion, and the dashboard speedometer was apparently
reading correctly.  (This may have been loss of data cable connection.)

Reporting,
-- 
Robert Meier

  "Always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't go to yours."
     -- Yogi Berra


From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Wed Sep 26 15:15:39 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:15:39 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>
	<20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Aaron,
>
>   
>> Bigger question... what exactly is the car doing that is
>> driving (heh!) you to monitor its behavior so obsessively?
>>     
>
> The car is a Saturn SL2 2001 with 75Kmi.
>
> In late July, I had new tires put on the car.
> The prior tires were Firestones with 75Kmi on them.
> The new tires are same radius Cooper tires.
>
> As always, I kept track of gas mileage,
> and expected to lose a percent or two simply
> due to widing of tire with new tread.
>
> The actual gas mileage dropped from about 30mpg to 25mpg (~20%).
> The car also seemed to be struggling up some hills I remember
> having no trouble climbing and otherwise appearing slightly "sluggish".
> After a second tank of gas confirmed the mileage drop,
>
> I tried pressurizing the tires to 4psi over the door plate figure,
> as the old tires had been.  There was no noticeable change.
>
> I was too busy trying to satisfy a long-hours job, and so couldn't
> readily take the car to the mechanic until about 1month had passed.
> I confirmed the presence of adequage oil, transmission fluid, coolant,
> and my inexpert eye could not find any disconnected/broken hoses/clamps/...
>
> Taking a coworker to lunch on M-59, the speed topped out at 45mph
> and the tach was ~4000rpm.  I scheduled to take it to the mechanic
> the next day.  On the return trip, the speed topped out at 15mph,
> with everything I could think of to reduce engine load.
> A few days before, on the weekend, I'd used it with only slight
> sluggishness compared to pre-July performance at Detroit highway
> speeds.
>
> I dropped my coworker off and took it directly to the mechanic.
> Enroute to the mechanic, I tried pushing the accelerator to the
> floor (when traffic permitted) to engage the "flood mode" switch
> that leaned the fuel injection (to permit starting when flooded).
> After three such operations, the cars top speed climbed to 45mph
> at which I made it to the mechanic.
>
> The mechanic originally said the computer reported multiple
> trouble codes (the MEL was NOT lit), and that the transaxle output
> speed sensor was not reporting.  The mechanic assumed that
> most drivers would not have noticed that the speedometer was
> reporting 0mph.  I would have noticed a speedometer reporting 0
> and did not at anytime see such.
>
> The next day, the mechanic said that the speed sensor was working
> and the misdiagnosis was due to misuse of the monitoring equipment.
> They did change the fuel filter (which was already reported to
> need replacement (50% blocked) when next convenient).  The
> mechanic reported that the car behaved fine in multiple test drives
> and they could find nothing wrong.  The mechanic recommended that
> I merely watch the car until I could learn something deterministic.
>
> The mechanic did suggest watching the transmission change points
> and said the torque converter should be bypassed at 47mph.
>
> Since then, despite the time limits of the above-mentioned job,
> I stepped up my long-planned efforts to install a modem (already
> assembled) in the car and begin monitoring (planned for baseline
> measures, now unfortunately for diagnostics).
>
> I have found that its misbehavior is intermittent,
> usually but not always when the outside air temperature (not the engine)
> is hot.  (Driving the car in the cool morning, cool evening, on
> a cloudy day, or after sitting in the shade, it seldom misbehaves.
> After sitting on a hot parking lot on a sunny day, it frequently
> but not always misbehaves.)
>
> When it misbehaves, the tach rises above 3000rpm without downshifting.
> When it is not misbehaving, it seems less peppy than I remember,
> and it takes several times as long to accelerate to I-75 speed,
> as I remember when I was commuting daily to/from downtown.
>
> At no time have I seen the MEL lit, nor have I found any trouble
> codes in the queue.  I've been unable to identify conditions
> under which it reliably misbehaves.
>
> I've verified accurate dashboard speedometer reading with a
> gps receiver on several occasions.  On two occasions, when
> I had neither palm nor gps, I observed my dashboard speedometer
> reporting less than posted speed while keeping up with traffic
> (once on M-59 and once on I-75).
>
> The monitoring tool is OBD-Gauge running on a salvage (for 5$,
> suffers total amnesia every few days) Palm.  It reports and graphs
> (not uploadable) throttle position, tachometer, vehicle speed,
> calculated load, ignition advance, coolant temperature,
> manifold air pressure, short term fuel trim, long term fuel trim,
> manifold air temperature, oxygen sensor (pre-catalytic),
> oxygen sensor (post catalytic).  I understand 0 fuel trim
> indicates stoich burning; negative readings like I see,
> indicate rich mixture.
>

Perhaps your Mass Air Flow sensor is reading high (engine
computer thinks more air is coming in than actually is,
and thus directs for more fuel than is needed).

By different means, a dirty air filter can also cause
an overly rich mixture.



75,000 miles is getting up there.
When was the last time the following services were performed:

Fuel Filter Replacement
Spark Plugs Clean and Re-gap OR Replace and re-gap
Spark Plug Wires Replace
PCV valve Clean or Replace
Throttle Body Clean
Air Filter Replace

Spark plugs are cheap ($2 each), so I replace those ever
12-24 months. Aging spark plug wires can result in weak
ignition, even if you don't have any misfiring.

A gummed up PCV valve allows the inside of the engine block
to hold high pressure gases (and also lots of nasty stuff
that you don't want in your oil).

Fuel filter... it's amazing how a used up fuel filter can
rob you of both mileage and power. I'm not sure if it could
cause overly rich readings, however.



> 		    normal observation		misbehaving
> tachometer:	    2000-3000			2500-3500
> vehicle speed:	    (matches speedometer)	(matches speedometer)
> calculated load:    ~33 in drive with brake	
> 		    ~25 in park
> coolant temp:	    ambient->95<->105oC		same
> manifold aid press: ~100KPa engine off
> 		    ~40KPa idling
> 		    ~20KPa under load
> oxygen sensors:	    250-750mV (almost white noise) same
> short fuel trim:    ~0 to -40/99 averages -13	same
> long fuel trim:	    ~0 to -23/99 averages -9    same
>
> On one occasion, I observed an OBD vehicle speed of 0, while the
> car was in motion, and the dashboard speedometer was apparently
> reading correctly.  (This may have been loss of data cable connection.)
>
> Reporting,
>   





From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Sep 26 23:33:40 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:33:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com> (message from Aaron Kulkis on Wed, 
	26 Sep 2007 15:15:39 -0400)
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>
	<20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
	<46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <20070927033340.0D5A420AB9E@starfox.local>

Aaron,

Thanks for your suggestions.

> Perhaps your Mass Air Flow sensor is reading high
> (engine computer thinks more air is coming in than
> actually is, and thus directs for more fuel than is needed).

OBD Gauge does not include that measurement (or my car is unequipped).

> By different means, a dirty air filter can also cause
> an overly rich mixture.

Air filter looks clean and was just changed less than 3Kmi ago.

> 75,000 miles is getting up there.

Two of my prior cars were at 120Kmi and 140Kmi when they
were totalled by collision.

> When was the last time the following services were performed:

> Fuel Filter Replacement
1Kmi after start of problem, and 1Kmi before now

> Spark Plugs Clean and Re-gap OR Replace and re-gap
> Spark Plug Wires Replace
> PCV valve Clean or Replace

60Kmi (15Kmi ago)

> Throttle Body Clean

unknown

> Air Filter Replace

72Kmi (3Kmi ago)

> Spark plugs are cheap ($2 each), so I replace those ever
> 12-24 months. Aging spark plug wires can result in weak
> ignition, even if you don't have any misfiring.

Unfortunately the Saturn plugs are difficult to get at to replace.

> A gummed up PCV valve allows the inside of the engine block
> to hold high pressure gases (and also lots of nasty stuff
> that you don't want in your oil).

> Fuel filter... it's amazing how a used up fuel filter can
> rob you of both mileage and power. I'm not sure if it could
> cause overly rich readings, however.

As this was actually overdue for replacement,
it was replaced first,
but I would expect a clogged fuel filter to restrict fuel flow
and behave like a "fuel starvation" lean injection.

Still investigating,
-- 
Robert Meier
tel:+1.248.650.9488 (voicemail)
mailto:eaglecoach at wwnet.com

 "Destruction is *easy*. Even stupid people and weather formations can
    do it. If you think you're so cool, try *improving* something."
	      -- Ray Ingles 1997


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Thu Sep 27 09:19:01 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:19:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] MDLUG usage reminder
Message-ID: <46FBADC5.mailJ8Q11T7A2@freehold.wwnet.com>

This is the monthly reminder of
     mdlug List Guidelines.
Please send comments to eaglecoach at wwnet.com
Meetings are monthly (http://www.mdlug.org/meetings/meetings.html).

*Courtesy:*
Do unto others what you would have them do unto you in their place.

See /Emily Postnews/ (http://www.templetons.com/brad/emily.html) and
  /Netiquette Guidelines/ (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html) for details.

If you find something objectionable or off-topic, please send a courteous
  note offlist to the author (and/or postmaster at mdlug.org) rather than list.
  (The rule is simple, do not be easily annoyed or annoying.)

Please post messages in plain text (rather than html or rich text).
  See http://expita.com/nomime.html for instructions for your browser.

Please remove References: field when starting a new subject.

Please trim your replies so that you only quote the parts you are are
  replying to, rather than the entire original message , and
  prefix with '>'. (Most mail clients do this part automatically.)

Please do not cross-post, and if you feel you must, please direct
  discussion to one list with a reply-to; field

*Lists:*
 mdlug-admin    mdlug administration

 mdlug-newbie   questions/answers with explanation of concepts
                assume the questioner was unaware of the
                man/info/... pages
                initial configuration of ???

 mdlug          ANNOUNCE: announcements only, no discussion

 mdlug          questions/answers using jargon
                assume the questioner has read the man/info/... pages
                technical (e.g. howto, perl scripts)

 mdlug-discuss  politics
                Microsoft-bashing
                my disto can beat up your distro, and other flames
                anything else

*Filtering and Security*
If you lack time or interest to follow some of the topics, ask
 mdlug-newbie for suggestions on filtering mail automatically.

We welcome the many who listen silently, and invite them to post when
 they wish to contribute either questions or answers.

We strip the reply to addresses from the headers of messages before putting
 them in the archives.

Likewise, our archiving software quashes email addresses in the body of
 messages, to make them difficult for spammers to harvest. However they
 will still be human readable so you might want to consider this before
 posting personal email addresses.

Have fun!


From drew4096 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 27 19:31:13 2007
From: drew4096 at gmail.com (Drew)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:31:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com>
Message-ID: <etPan.46fc3d41.3bae3041.1d72@zaurus>

* Aaron Kulkis <akulkis3 at hotpop.com> wrote on 26.09.2007 21:15:39:
 
> Perhaps your Mass Air Flow sensor is reading high (engine
 
> By different means, a dirty air filter can also cause
> an overly rich mixture.

    If it's a carbeurated engine I would agree. But a computer controlled fuel injected engine is supposed to automatically adjust the fuel mix to match the air flow, whatever it may be, either by reading the mass air flow and dividing by 14.7, or else by moving it back and forth as required to have the tiniest detectable unused oxygen in the exhaust. Restricting air flow shound result in proportionately reduced fuel metering. 
 
> Fuel filter... it's amazing how a used up fuel filter can
> rob you of both mileage and power. I'm not sure if it could
> cause overly rich readings, however.
>

As Dr. Bob points out this should *reduce* fuel flow. And the adjustment process should still result in stoich mixes.

---

- Drew.





From akulkis3 at hotpop.com  Thu Sep 27 03:35:00 2007
From: akulkis3 at hotpop.com (Aaron Kulkis)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 03:35:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070927033340.0D5A420AB9E@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>	<20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>	<46FAAFDB.6000801@hotpop.com>
	<20070927033340.0D5A420AB9E@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <46FB5D24.6060802@hotpop.com>

Robert Meier wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> Thanks for your suggestions.
>
>   
>> Perhaps your Mass Air Flow sensor is reading high
>> (engine computer thinks more air is coming in than
>> actually is, and thus directs for more fuel than is needed).
>>     
>
> OBD Gauge does not include that measurement (or my car is unequipped).
>
If you have fuel injection, you probably have one. It will
be an electrical sensor in the duct that connects the air
filter housing to the throttle body.

If it's say, a little gummed up or a bit of rust, such that
it "sticks" a little bit high after an acceleration, it
could cause a problem like this.

I first became aware of the impact this thing has on earlier
car that had a bit of dry rot on the ductwork between the
MAF sensor and the throttle body. When pressing the
throttle down heavily, the the air pressure from the air
intake all the way back to the throttle body drops
significantly. (Under low throttle, the butterfly valve
in the intake side of the throttle body significantly
obstructs the airflow into the throttle body, and so
there's a significant drop in air pressure across the
butterfly...but when the butterfly is open, the manifold
vacuum extends all the way through the air-intake system)

Well, anyways, a section of the air ductwork was made
of rubber, and molded like a soda straw that has a
mechanical "bend" point...and in one of the crevices,
dry rot and vibration caused an air leak. So with a
sudden throttle position change, the vacuum behind the
crack increased suddenly, and a bunch of air would
rush in through the crack, bypassing the MAF, and so
the mixture would suddenly get REAL lean--engine RPM's
would drop significantly, manifold vacuum dropped,
the crack closed, the MAF would be sending accurate
readings, air-fuel mixture went back to spec, the
engine would rev, increasing manifold vacuum, starting
the whole cycle all over again.

I could still accelerate, just VERY slowly.

A couple feet of duct tape solved the problem. :-)

>> By different means, a dirty air filter can also cause
>> an overly rich mixture.
>>     
>
> Air filter looks clean and was just changed less than 3Kmi ago.
>> 75,000 miles is getting up there.
>>     
>
> Two of my prior cars were at 120Kmi and 140Kmi when they
> were totalled by collision.
>
>   
I hear you... my current car has 131kmi on it, and the
oil consumption is what I would expect from an engine
with only 20kmi.

What I meant was 75,000 is getting to the point where
if any "regular services" which are recommended at
intervals of 40,000 or less start to cause problems
if they have been neglected.

Back in college, I had a friend with a Honda Civic...
the body was heavily rusted. The engine had 200,000
on it and was still going strong. At the time, that
sort of lifetime was extremely rare for an engine
made in Michigan, but he told me that it wasn't
uncommon for the Honda engines.
>> When was the last time the following services were performed:
>>     
>
>   
>> Fuel Filter Replacement
>>     
> 1Kmi after start of problem, and 1Kmi before now
>
>   

Wow.

>> Spark Plugs Clean and Re-gap OR Replace and re-gap
>> Spark Plug Wires Replace
>> PCV valve Clean or Replace
>>     
>
> 60Kmi (15Kmi ago)
>
>   
>> Throttle Body Clean
>
> unknown

Probably unrelated. It's a fairly simple procedure
if you want to do it yourself -- a can of throttle
body cleaner is cheap, like $5, making the main cost
to be nothing more than time. No special tools nor
expertise is required. In contrast, having it done
by a mechanic will cost $50 or more. I had it done
once at a quick oil change place, and it was $60.
As the vehicle was my first fuel injected engine, I
paid for it because I didn't know anything about
the procedure.

I had it done by a mechanic at an oil filter place
once, and it provided an immediate and significant
improvement. Engine idle smoothed out as soon as
the procedure was done, as well as power output.

Basically, you take the air duct off of the intake
of the throttle body, and first brush out some of
the major crud which has accumulated inside the
throttle body. Once that is done, the procedure
consists of introducing throttle body cleaner into
the throttle body while the engine is running.

The engine will race when the large quantities of
cleaner are introduced (it's similar to fuel).
The can I got says to open up the butterfly valve
and spray inside the throttle body for 10 seconds,
then let the engine run for 10 seconds, and repeat
until the can is used up. With my engine, that
turned out to be rather impractical -- the engine
really revved when I tried to do that, and without
a tach, I was afraid of redlining it by introducing
so much of this stuff while the butterfly was
open at the same time. And when the fan would
kick in, the hot air would blow back towards the
throttle body, and the engine would stall for
lack of power. So every time it stalled, I would
give a 10-seconds spray while the engine was
stopped. After a few repetitions, I observed a
significant reduction in the amount of crud on
the inside of the throttle body (most likely
condensates from the vaporized oil and whatever
else gets sucked out of the crankcase through the
PCV valve into the front of the throttle body).

In contrast, the guy at the quick oil change place
had a nifty little set-up, essentially some sort
of plastic tube and a flow-control valve (think
of an IV drip in a hospital), with the open end
of the tube attached just inside the throttle
body opening, or perhaps even poked just past
the butterfly valve.

Doing the operation myself took me about 3 hours
(although it would probably be maybe 60-90 min
when I do it the next time). Oil shop guy did
it in 30-45 minutes. The price difference was
significant however. The oil shop charged $60.
Doing it myself cost me $5 and a few paper towels.

If you do it yourself, do NOT use carburetor
cleaner. The price difference between carb
cleaner and the same size can of throttle
body cleaner is negligible -- so if carb cleaner
were appropriate for throttle bodies, I would
think that it would just be called carb and
throttle body cleaner. Since it isn't, I'm
going on the assumption that the two products
are similar, but different in some important way.
>
>> Air Filter Replace
>>     
>
> 72Kmi (3Kmi ago)
>
>   
>> Spark plugs are cheap ($2 each), so I replace those ever
>> 12-24 months. Aging spark plug wires can result in weak
>> ignition, even if you don't have any misfiring.
>>     
>
> Unfortunately the Saturn plugs are difficult to get at to replace.
>
So it's probably been a long time. I'm going to be out
of town for the next two weeks, but if you want, I can
take a look at it when you get back. Sometimes there
are amazingly simple (but non-obvious) ways of getting
to hard-to-reach spark plugs.

The Fiero was notorious in this respect -- undo an
engine mount and rock the engine forward. Then
someone realized that you could take a rear tire
off, and then another couple of bolts would allow
the wheel well skirt to be removed, and you would
be staring right at the spark plugs.

A similar trick might be possible with your vehicle.

>> A gummed up PCV valve allows the inside of the engine block
>> to hold high pressure gases (and also lots of nasty stuff
>> that you don't want in your oil).
>>     
>
>   
>> Fuel filter... it's amazing how a used up fuel filter can
>> rob you of both mileage and power. I'm not sure if it could
>> cause overly rich readings, however.
>>     
>
> As this was actually overdue for replacement,
> it was replaced first,
> but I would expect a clogged fuel filter to restrict fuel flow
> and behave like a "fuel starvation" lean injection.
>
> Still investigating,
>   





From peter at petertheplumber.net  Thu Sep 27 09:59:36 2007
From: peter at petertheplumber.net (Peter Bart)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:59:36 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [TECH SUPPORT REQ] OBD-II typical readings
In-Reply-To: <20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
References: <20070925031735.A6E58209F99@starfox.local>
	<46F90C07.9050300@hotpop.com>
	<20070926163620.6277B20AB9F@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <20070927095936.243e6151@Nokia-N800-26>

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:36:20 -0400 (EDT)
Robert Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:

> Aaron,
> 
> > Bigger question... what exactly is the car doing that is
> > driving (heh!) you to monitor its behavior so obsessively?
> 
> The car is a Saturn SL2 2001 with 75Kmi.
> 
> In late July, I had new tires put on the car.
> The prior tires were Firestones with 75Kmi on them.
> The new tires are same radius Cooper tires.
> 
> As always, I kept track of gas mileage,
> and expected to lose a percent or two simply
> due to widing of tire with new tread.
> 
> The actual gas mileage dropped from about 30mpg to 25mpg (~20%).
> The car also seemed to be struggling up some hills I remember
> having no trouble climbing and otherwise appearing slightly
> "sluggish". After a second tank of gas confirmed the mileage drop,
> 
> I tried pressurizing the tires to 4psi over the door plate figure,
> as the old tires had been.  There was no noticeable change.
> 
> I was too busy trying to satisfy a long-hours job, and so couldn't
> readily take the car to the mechanic until about 1month had passed.
> I confirmed the presence of adequage oil, transmission fluid, coolant,
> and my inexpert eye could not find any disconnected/broken
> hoses/clamps/...
> 
> Taking a coworker to lunch on M-59, the speed topped out at 45mph
> and the tach was ~4000rpm.  I scheduled to take it to the mechanic
> the next day.  On the return trip, the speed topped out at 15mph,
> with everything I could think of to reduce engine load.
> A few days before, on the weekend, I'd used it with only slight
> sluggishness compared to pre-July performance at Detroit highway
> speeds.
> 
> I dropped my coworker off and took it directly to the mechanic.
> Enroute to the mechanic, I tried pushing the accelerator to the
> floor (when traffic permitted) to engage the "flood mode" switch
> that leaned the fuel injection (to permit starting when flooded).
> After three such operations, the cars top speed climbed to 45mph
> at which I made it to the mechanic.
> 
> The mechanic originally said the computer reported multiple
> trouble codes (the MEL was NOT lit), and that the transaxle output
> speed sensor was not reporting.  The mechanic assumed that
> most drivers would not have noticed that the speedometer was
> reporting 0mph.  I would have noticed a speedometer reporting 0
> and did not at anytime see such.
> 
> The next day, the mechanic said that the speed sensor was working
> and the misdiagnosis was due to misuse of the monitoring equipment.
> They did change the fuel filter (which was already reported to
> need replacement (50% blocked) when next convenient).  The
> mechanic reported that the car behaved fine in multiple test drives
> and they could find nothing wrong.  The mechanic recommended that
> I merely watch the car until I could learn something deterministic.
> 
> The mechanic did suggest watching the transmission change points
> and said the torque converter should be bypassed at 47mph.
> 
> Since then, despite the time limits of the above-mentioned job,
> I stepped up my long-planned efforts to install a modem (already
> assembled) in the car and begin monitoring (planned for baseline
> measures, now unfortunately for diagnostics).
> 
> I have found that its misbehavior is intermittent,
> usually but not always when the outside air temperature (not the
> engine) is hot.  (Driving the car in the cool morning, cool evening,
> on a cloudy day, or after sitting in the shade, it seldom misbehaves.
> After sitting on a hot parking lot on a sunny day, it frequently
> but not always misbehaves.)
> 
> When it misbehaves, the tach rises above 3000rpm without downshifting.
> When it is not misbehaving, it seems less peppy than I remember,
> and it takes several times as long to accelerate to I-75 speed,
> as I remember when I was commuting daily to/from downtown.
> 
> At no time have I seen the MEL lit, nor have I found any trouble
> codes in the queue.  I've been unable to identify conditions
> under which it reliably misbehaves.
> 
> I've verified accurate dashboard speedometer reading with a
> gps receiver on several occasions.  On two occasions, when
> I had neither palm nor gps, I observed my dashboard speedometer
> reporting less than posted speed while keeping up with traffic
> (once on M-59 and once on I-75).
> 
> The monitoring tool is OBD-Gauge running on a salvage (for 5$,
> suffers total amnesia every few days) Palm.  It reports and graphs
> (not uploadable) throttle position, tachometer, vehicle speed,
> calculated load, ignition advance, coolant temperature,
> manifold air pressure, short term fuel trim, long term fuel trim,
> manifold air temperature, oxygen sensor (pre-catalytic),
> oxygen sensor (post catalytic).  I understand 0 fuel trim
> indicates stoich burning; negative readings like I see,
> indicate rich mixture.
> 
> 		    normal observation		misbehaving
> tachometer:	    2000-3000			2500-3500
> vehicle speed:	    (matches speedometer)	(matches
> speedometer) calculated load:    ~33 in drive with brake	
> 		    ~25 in park
> coolant temp:	    ambient->95<->105oC		same
> manifold aid press: ~100KPa engine off
> 		    ~40KPa idling
> 		    ~20KPa under load
> oxygen sensors:	    250-750mV (almost white noise) same
> short fuel trim:    ~0 to -40/99 averages -13	same
> long fuel trim:	    ~0 to -23/99 averages -9    same
> 
> On one occasion, I observed an OBD vehicle speed of 0, while the
> car was in motion, and the dashboard speedometer was apparently
> reading correctly.  (This may have been loss of data cable
> connection.)
> 
> Reporting,

Dr. Meier,
	My suggestion to you is to find a mechanic/shop you can trust;
either by recommendations or good means; that is familiar with your
vehicle. That may or may not be a dealer shop, you get what you pay for.

Best Regards,

-- 
Peter The Plumber sm on the Road


