From wolfger at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 05:32:32 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 05:32:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: [mdlug]
	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705311915j30e631dclae8180e67ddef09d@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/31/07, allen <amajorov at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Wolfger wrote:
> > I think you're confusing economic systems with something else...
> >
> Naw, I think the distinction between economic systems and governmental
> systems inaccurately describes either. Capitalism requires certain
> features of society that are most commonly found in a democracy or a
> reasonable facsimile; rule of law, property rights, equality before the
> law. There are others but it's getting late and I'm tired.
>
> Authoritarian regimes of all stripes - monarchies, communism, fascism
> and any other "isms" - are inherently inimical to capitalism since
> capitalism requires a number of freedoms and legal guarantees.

I'll grant you, for the moment, that capitalism requires some form of
democracy to survive (I don't know of any country that has a true
democracy, or unfettered capitalism, but that's a side argument). That
does nothing, however to explain why you think socialism (which can
also exist under a democracy) is more dangerous.

> If you think a sweat shop is tough try the agricultural sector some
> time. Even now, here in America with all the latest technology and
> labor-saving gadgetry, it's still a tough way to make a living. It
> becomes progressively tougher the more primitive the agricultural
> technology in use until you get to subsistence farming.

Thanks for helping me with my point! Capitalism drives agriculture to
ridiculous standards, so that the small-time farmers have difficulty
surviving.
Oh, and then there's the government subsidies (socialism) that are
designed to keep farms afloat...

> Oddly enough, the more socialism a nation embraces the less betterment
> it seems to enjoy. If you've got an example or two of the success of
> socialism's strivings feel free to provide them.

Well as I said previously, the problem with socialism is human nature.
Since we can't seem to remove that element, socialism fails.
Likewise capitalism also fails. That's why, in the best nation on
earth, you see a mixture of capitalistic and socialistic practices.

> > Which is why the gap between the wealthy and the poor is widening?
> >
> Would that be the poor who own their own homes with central heating and
> air conditioning, cable TV, their own cars and have, as their number one
> health problem, obesity? If that's the poor to whom you're referring
> then they seem to be doing progressively better as that income gap gets
> wider.

Yes, those are the poor that I'm referring to, who are currently
seeing a huge rise in home foreclosures, who are losing their jobs to
overseas markets because it makes the best capitalistic sense to a
rich board of directors. While it's true that our poor have it much
better than the poor in some other companies, you are diverting the
argument. You called capitalism a "leveler", and it is NOT. For every
CEO who is "asked to leave" with a multi-million dollar separation
package, there are thousands of guys living paycheck-to-paycheck who
suddenly find themselves without paychecks. And it's the socialistic
practice of "unemployment insurance" that keeps them from starving.

> > So capitalism leaves room for a person changing his social standing
> > for better or for worse, I agree. I don't see how that levels anything
> > when mostly the rich get richer and the poor stay poor. Each biography
> > is offset by thousands of failures.
> >
> As opposed to socialist nations in which there aren't any of those
> inspiring stories because there's no social movement?

I'll remind you again that I didn't start this by saying "socialism is
the best!" I started this by saying that socialism and capitalism are
fairly equally bad ideas. You keep trying to put  capitalism up on a
pedestal, and I'm just trying to bring you back to reality.

> > Ha! Well, I think we'll be waiting a while to see who gets the
> > position. Unfortunately, it's looking like Bill Gates.
> >
> Bill Gates? I don't think so.
>
> Touch base with younger techies, the ones in their twenties or less. I
> don't know whether they've quite come to the point of viewing
> Microsoft-bashing as a quaint anachronism, like high-button shoes and
> cell phones so big you can't lose them in a pocket, but he hardly stands
> astride the tech world the way he did in the distant past of, oh, six or
> seven years ago.

"Tech world", nothing. Try "real world". I believe Bill's still one of
the top 5 richest (i.e. most powerful) people in the world. He's
currently got little-to-no standing in the tech world, but that's
irrelevant.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jun  1 22:26:12 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 22:26:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705311915j30e631dclae8180e67ddef09d@mail.gmail.com>	<465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>

Wolfger wrote:
>
> I'll grant you, for the moment, that capitalism requires some form of
> democracy to survive (I don't know of any country that has a true
> democracy, or unfettered capitalism, but that's a side argument). That
> does nothing, however to explain why you think socialism (which can
> also exist under a democracy) is more dangerous.
>
>   
Socialism converts private ownership into common ownership, into a 
commons. Where there's a commons there's always a tragedy of the 
commons. It's that pesky human nature. The answer to the tragedy of the 
commons is inevitably commons cops; people whose job it is to prevent 
the tragedy of the commons.

Unfortunately, the labor pool you have to draw from when looking for 
those cops of the commons is plain, old human beings. Plain, old human 
beings complete with the same sorts of self-interest as every other 
human being except that these human beings are in charge of the commons, 
a valuable enough resource to require policing to prevent the tragedy of.

Now you've got a two-tiered society - those in charge of the commons and 
those not. Want to guess the likelihood of the former finding all sorts 
of justifications for hanging onto their power over the latter?
> Thanks for helping me with my point! Capitalism drives agriculture to
> ridiculous standards, so that the small-time farmers have difficulty
> surviving.
> Oh, and then there's the government subsidies (socialism) that are
> designed to keep farms afloat...
>
>   
"Drives agriculture to ridiculous standards"? Is that something like 
being too rich, too lucky or too pretty? Would that I had those burdens 
to bear.

The flip side to "small-time farmers have(ing) difficulty surviving" is 
the relentless drop in the price of food in the face of ever greater 
demand while variety and quality increase. I may feel some sympathy for 
the suffering of people losing their farms but the continual drop in the 
percentage of the populace in the agricultural sector means that it's 
only going to get tougher.

If you think you've got the stuff to be part of the diminishing number 
who can survive, go for it. But the odds are against you and no sympathy 
is due someone for making a bad bet and losing.
> Well as I said previously, the problem with socialism is human nature.
> Since we can't seem to remove that element, socialism fails.
> Likewise capitalism also fails. That's why, in the best nation on
> earth, you see a mixture of capitalistic and socialistic practices.
>
>   
Nope. Like I wrote before, socialism ignores and/or attempts to suppress 
human nature. Capitalism harnesses it.

The reason we have a mixture of socialism and capitalism is because 
socialism is long on cheap promises and there'll always be a market in 
cheap promises and people willing to serve that market.
> Yes, those are the poor that I'm referring to, who are currently
> seeing a huge rise in home foreclosures, who are losing their jobs to
> overseas markets because it makes the best capitalistic sense to a
> rich board of directors.
Decision time then. Do you erect trade barriers to "protect" those jobs, 
knowing where it'll take the entire nation, or do you not, knowing that 
the resulting efficiencies *always* end up benefiting the bulk of the 
populace?
>  While it's true that our poor have it much
> better than the poor in some other companies, you are diverting the
> argument. You called capitalism a "leveler", and it is NOT. 
Oh sure it is. No capitalism without democracy, remember?
> For every
> CEO who is "asked to leave" with a multi-million dollar separation
> package, there are thousands of guys living paycheck-to-paycheck who
> suddenly find themselves without paychecks. And it's the socialistic
> practice of "unemployment insurance" that keeps them from starving.
>   
And it's the capitalism that generates the wealth to fund unemployment 
insurance socialism.

By the way, check the record of starvation in socialist nations. Hunger 
is one area in which authoritarian nations always excel. But that's the 
way it is with a class-based society.
> I'll remind you again that I didn't start this by saying "socialism is
> the best!" I started this by saying that socialism and capitalism are
> fairly equally bad ideas. You keep trying to put  capitalism up on a
> pedestal, and I'm just trying to bring you back to reality.
>
>   
I'm not putting capitalism on a pedestal, I'm just pointing at the 
pedestal capitalism is already on and saying "there's the pedestal" and 
I'm quite firmly rooted in reality. The reality is, born out by the 
historical record and current events, that socialism inevitably results 
in poverty and often results in authoritarian tragedies. That hardly 
seems make the two ideas equally bad.
> "Tech world", nothing. Try "real world". I believe Bill's still one of
> the top 5 richest (i.e. most powerful) people in the world. He's
> currently got little-to-no standing in the tech world, but that's
> irrelevant
Bill Gates one of the most powerful people in the world? I wonder what 
would happen if he got busted for DUI a couple of times? We could ask 
Paris Hilton, when she gets out of the slam. She's pretty rich.

Allen


From wolfger at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 22:43:21 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 22:43:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: [mdlug]
	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705311915j30e631dclae8180e67ddef09d@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330706011943s6a3dca3n7b9fc7affd085830@mail.gmail.com>

> Bill Gates one of the most powerful people in the world? I wonder what
> would happen if he got busted for DUI a couple of times? We could ask
> Paris Hilton, when she gets out of the slam. She's pretty rich.

Paris Hilton was given a slap on the wrist for DUI (probation) and a
slightly harder slap on the wrist for violating probation. A sentence
which, by the way, was cut in half for "good behavior" before she even
started serving the sentence.
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/2007/05/17/wtf-what-happened-to-no-special-treatment/

...and she's not even a fraction of the wealth/power of Mr. Gates. If
you'll recall correctly, Bill's company was found guilty of some very
hefty charges here in the USA about... 7 years ago. To the best of my
knowledge the punishment was never administered at all.


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jun  4 11:15:18 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 11:15:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33DB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: allen

> Socialism converts private ownership into common ownership, into a 
> commons. Where there's a commons there's always a tragedy of the 
> commons.

 Just as a note, in software, where duplication and distribution is
(to a first approximation, at least) free, the commons can't be exhausted
and the tragedy doesn't arise. This is one of the reason open-source
software works so well.

 It's worth noting that if the same principles could be applied to
material objects, a lot of current economic models would break down.
One reason why things like 3D printers and nanotechnology could make
for interesting times in the future.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317

 "Look, you can't 'show' someone why the fish slapping dance is funny.
 A person either appreciates it, or not all, on a totally fundamental
   level and you can't change someone in that kind of way." - Nermal

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From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jun  4 15:10:13 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:10:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33DB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33DB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46646395.3080700@sbcglobal.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: allen
>>     
>
>   
>> Socialism converts private ownership into common ownership, into a 
>> commons. Where there's a commons there's always a tragedy of the 
>> commons.
>>     
>
>  Just as a note, in software, where duplication and distribution is
> (to a first approximation, at least) free, the commons can't be exhausted
> and the tragedy doesn't arise. This is one of the reason open-source
> software works so well.
>   
And why, among people who don't quite understand it, engenders 
flinty-eyed suspicion.

Since open-source software has value - otherwise why would people use 
it? - and it's free, the not-unreasonable-assumption is that there's a 
catch. The suspicion generally revolves around the observation that that 
which is too good to be true, isn't, despite the best efforts of those 
selling the too-good-to-be-true commodity, i.e. socialism.

Of course, open-source software isn't free so much as it's so cheap 
that, for all practical purposes, it's free. Of the various components 
of cost in software it's the labor that's free.

Duplication and transportation costs are cheap enough to be considered, 
for all practical purposes, free although the distinction is worth 
keeping in mind. When computers and bandwidth were both much more 
expensive then they are now the cost of duplicating/moving a given 
volume of bits was worthy of consideration. But between Moore's law and 
the communication bandwidth analog of Moore's law, both those costs have 
dropped faster then our utilization has increased.

That's not to say the trend will necessarily continue or won't, at 
least, be temporarily reversed but over any reasonable period of time, 
just like almost every other commodity, the price of 
computation/communications will continue to decline.
>  It's worth noting that if the same principles could be applied to
> material objects, a lot of current economic models would break down.
> One reason why things like 3D printers and nanotechnology could make
> for interesting times in the future.
>
>   
It's not so much "if" but "how fast" and "how far".

The history of economic progress can be summed up as "making stuff 
cheaper" although I'm not certain that "free" and "lot's cheaper" are 
interchangeable. Also, I'm less certain then you that the arrival of the 
messiah, i.e. when material objects become free, will necessarily result 
in the "kid in the candy shop" future you anticipate.

Allen's Law (Allen's Law? Yes, why not?) of Conservation of Agony states 
that any decrease in pain is offset by an increase in pain, usually in 
an unanticipated area, so that agony is conserved. Examples are ubiquitous.

Decreases in travel time are offset by increases in the time needed to 
get to the point of departure, or, once embarked, result in inescapable 
proximity to cologne addicts or crying children. Cheaper food of greater 
variety and healthfulness results in food becoming a form of 
entertainment as well as an agent of social stratification, i.e. organic 
food versus the *other* kind, organic food-eaters versus 
Cheeto's-eaters. Cheaper communication propels an entertainment industry 
that gives scope to aspects of human nature less savory then even 
politics does.

I'd better stop. I'm starting to frighten myself with thoughts of a 
horrifyingly utopian future of peace, plenty and tranquility, populated 
by people with perfect teeth, bodies and psyches, with all the hair they 
want where they want it and none where they don't.

Allen


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Jun  5 12:36:04 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 12:36:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46646395.3080700@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33DBF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: allen

> >  Just as a note, in software, where duplication and distribution is
> > (to a first approximation, at least) free, the commons 
> can't be exhausted
> > and the tragedy doesn't arise. This is one of the reason open-source
> > software works so well.
> >   
> And why, among people who don't quite understand it, engenders 
> flinty-eyed suspicion.

 Yes, that's why education about how it actually works is so important.

> Of course, open-source software isn't free so much as it's so cheap 
> that, for all practical purposes, it's free. Of the various 
> components of cost in software it's the labor that's free.

 Actually, it's the labor that costs, but not necessarily in money.

> >  It's worth noting that if the same principles could be applied to
> > material objects, a lot of current economic models would break down.
> > One reason why things like 3D printers and nanotechnology could make
> > for interesting times in the future.

> Also, I'm less certain then you that the arrival of the messiah, i.e.
> when material objects become free, will necessarily result 
> in the "kid in the candy shop" future you anticipate.

 Um... have you ever heard of the proverbial Chinese curse, "May you live
in interesting times"? I didn't say there'd be pie in the sky by and by.
I said there would be "interesting times".

 I figure one of the very possible results of such an economic upheaval
could be a big war. And so one of the reasons why I push for space travel
is so that there's a good chance of spreading our eggs into more baskets
than just Earth.

 Such a war is not guaranteed, of course. But it's worth planning options
just in case.

> Allen's Law (Allen's Law? Yes, why not?) of Conservation of Agony states 
> that any decrease in pain is offset by an increase in pain, usually in 
> an unanticipated area, so that agony is conserved. Examples are ubiquitous.

 I'd dispute that rather strongly. For example:
 http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html

> Decreases in travel time are offset by increases in the time needed to 
> get to the point of departure, or, once embarked, result in inescapable 
> proximity to cologne addicts or crying children.

 Different issue entirely. Google the concept of a "happiness set point".

> I'd better stop. I'm starting to frighten myself with thoughts of a 
> horrifyingly utopian future of peace, plenty and tranquility, populated 
> by people with perfect teeth, bodies and psyches, with all the hair they 
> want where they want it and none where they don't.

 So long as there are humans that *are* human in any meaningful sense, there
won't be a 'utopia'. But that Pinker article above nevertheless gives hope
for the future.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                (313) 227-2317
 
 "Una saus victus nullam sperare salutem." - The one hope
       of the damned is not to hope for safety.

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Tue Jun  5 18:42:52 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Tue,  5 Jun 2007 18:42:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net> (message from allen on Thu, 31
	May 2007 18:53:12 -0400)
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20070605224252.5B18220AA59@starfox.local>

Allen,

> Greed and ruthlessness don't go away in a workers paradise, they get 
> driven underground there to rot out the foundations of the society.

> Capitalism takes those lemons and makes lemonade out of them and in so 
> doing achieves what socialists claim but never demonstrate: a classless 
> society.

Capitalism turns lemons to lemonade only by enforcement of just (and
classless) laws.  (See "Wealth of Nations").

Unbridled (i.e. unencumbered by enforced law) greed was the cause of the
Great Depression of the 1930s, and will no doubt be named by the historians
of the future as the cause of our troubles since the '87 stock crash.

My opinions,

Bob





From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun  6 11:59:58 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:59:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <20070605224252.5B18220AA59@starfox.local>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>
	<20070605224252.5B18220AA59@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <4666D9FE.4060400@sbcglobal.net>

Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> Allen,
>
>   
>> Greed and ruthlessness don't go away in a workers paradise, they get 
>> driven underground there to rot out the foundations of the society.
>>     
>
>   
>> Capitalism takes those lemons and makes lemonade out of them and in so 
>> doing achieves what socialists claim but never demonstrate: a classless 
>> society.
>>     
>
> Capitalism turns lemons to lemonade only by enforcement of just (and
> classless) laws.  (See "Wealth of Nations").
>   
It might even be that capitalism springs from the legal prerequisites - 
rule of law, equality before the law and enforceable property rights - 
regardless of the governmental form. A monarchy with those legal 
characteristics would, I think, inevitably give rise to a vigorous and 
successful capitalist economy. Probably because in those important 
regards it presents a legal system that's more likely to be found in a 
democratic nation but not exclusively.

Still, a monarchy isn't the most comfortable fit for a capitalist 
economy. Too much likelihood of the legal landscape changing 
dramatically with a succession or revolution.
> Unbridled (i.e. unencumbered by enforced law) greed was the cause of the
> Great Depression of the 1930s, and will no doubt be named by the historians
> of the future as the cause of our troubles since the '87 stock crash.
>   
 From what I've read, the Great Depression was, in part, a result of 
unbridled greed at the national level.

Tariff wars and competitive devaluations disordered international trade 
to the point that it almost ground to a halt with the attendant domestic 
repercussions. I understand that monetary policy, at least in the U.S., 
had a hand in deepening the depression and social policies in prolonging 
the depression.

One of the few good things to come out of the Great Depression was a 
lesson that's compelling to this day. The desire to use trade policy to 
support domestic politics, i.e. farm subsidies, manufactured goods 
tariffs, etc., is counterbalanced to an extent by the lesson of the 
Great Depression.

Allen


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Jun  7 13:47:42 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:47:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] "Why DRM won't ever work"
Message-ID: <466844BE.8070606@impelind.com>

<http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6189011.html?tag=nl.e550>

It's an interesting commentary that touches very briefly on something we 
have discussed here recently.

-Rob



From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jun  7 14:56:52 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:56:52 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] "Why DRM won't ever work"
In-Reply-To: <466844BE.8070606@impelind.com>
References: <466844BE.8070606@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <466854F4.6010901@sbcglobal.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> <http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6189011.html?tag=nl.e550>
>
> It's an interesting commentary that touches very briefly on something we 
> have discussed here recently.
>
> -Rob
>   
I just wish the entire issue would reach its crashing crescendo so we 
could move on.

It's not like this is a new issue. For everyone of an age there's Bill 
Gate's weepy complaint about all the mean pirates who wouldn't let a 
poor but honest lad from Seattle earn tupence.

He survived and without a reliable means of preventing copying. He just 
had to accept what he couldn't change and make the best of it. On the 
evidence of his eleven figure net worth I'd say he found a way to make 
the best of it.

Of course the stakes are a bit higher now then they were back then, the 
microcomputer software business when Bill made his plea was penny-ante 
stuff compared to the intellectual property industry of today so the IP 
holders have access to options big Bill didn't.

But the basics haven't changed.

Copying bits is as easy - easier - now and the only way to try to 
prevent people from copying those bits is to make it artificially more 
difficult. The IP holders have had some success in enlisting the power 
of government to require adding technology to make copying artificially 
difficult but sooner or later they'll start to get push-back from the 
folks that are needed to give DRM a breath of a chance: the hardware 
manufacturers.

I'm sure TI or Intel would be happy to add DRM features to their 
hardware if they had some reason to think it would make their hardware 
more valuable but it doesn't. DRM modifications make the hardware more 
valuable to IP holders only. To the hardware makers it's just a cost and 
they won't add it until it generates a profit or until they're forced.

DRM'll never generate a profit for hardware makers and since the IP 
holders don't have enough money to buy off the hardware makers they have 
to try to force them to comply via law passed at the behest of the IP 
holders. Of course, the IP holders aren't the only folks who can hire 
lobbyists and once the law passed to suit the IP holders starts to 
pinch, the hardware makers will start complaining and spreading around 
lobbying funds. That ought to bring further legislative remedies to a 
halt and the IP holders will have to make due with the law they've 
gotten passed so far.

That'll cost the IP holders money, as the suits the RIAA has brought 
show but won't add a nickel to their bottom line. Sooner or later the 
adults will intervene and the boards of directors will want to know when 
all the funds going out to buy lobbyists and bad publicity will start to 
turn a profit. Since the answer is "never", they'll pull the plug and, 
taking a page from the Gates play book, will figure out how to earn an 
honest buck without having the luxury of owning the printing presses, 
record presses and film labs.

I just wish they'd get started.

Allen












From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jun 13 01:11:57 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 01:11:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] "Mr. Wizard" dead at 90.
Message-ID: <466F7C9D.8070106@comcast.net>

The world will be a less interesting place.

http://www.mrwizardstudios.com/

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jun 13 08:17:01 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:17:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] "Mr. Wizard" dead at 90.
In-Reply-To: <466F7C9D.8070106@comcast.net>
References: <466F7C9D.8070106@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <466FE03D.5080909@impelind.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> The world will be a less interesting place.
>
> http://www.mrwizardstudios.com/
>
>   
    I used to watch him on Nickelodeon when I was a kid.

    It's good that he's no longer suffering. Bone Cancer is one of, if 
not the most, painful forms of cancer, even near deadly amounts of 
morphine can barely dull the pain. No person should ever have to go 
through that.

    -Rob


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Jun 15 07:10:32 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 07:10:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Luke Alexander Ingles
Message-ID: <20070615111032.7FAA520AA5C@starfox.local>

"Our fourth son was born Tuesday, June 12th, at 12:13pm.
 He weighed eight pounds even, 20.5 inches long.
 Mother and child are doing fine."

			       Welcome to Earth
Please take time to enjoy the many attractions and features during your stay,
	      but remember that others want to enjoy them also.
		    Each guest has been loaned a vehicle.
	    Informal classes on its care and use run continuously.
	 Yours comes equipped with two eyes, two ears, and two arms.
	   Please be careful when operating around other vehicles,
		 as replacements are not generally available.
		 Maid service, food preparation, decoration,
	  and other services are performed by a staff of trillions.
		      The Management is always listening
and would appreciate your help in making this a wonderful place for everyone.
			    Have a pleasant stay.
			-- Robert J. Meier, Jr. (1995)



From gib at juno.com  Fri Jun 15 15:23:02 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:23:02 GMT
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Luke Alexander Ingles
Message-ID: <20070615.152302.10380.2@webmail24.lax.untd.com>

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From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Jun 24 14:01:05 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:01:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] Charter Communications clueless tech
	support
In-Reply-To: <20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>
	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>

Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> I made this offer several score times, and never yet been taken up on it.
>   
That would cost money and might teach the helpless desk that they are
way underpaid..


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Sun Jun 24 20:58:54 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:58:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] Charter Communications clueless
	tech	support
In-Reply-To: <467EB161.6010603@comcast.net> (message from Garry Stahl on Sun, 
	24 Jun 2007 14:01:05 -0400)
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>
	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>

Garry,

>> I made this offer several score times, and never yet been taken up on it.
> That would cost money and might teach the helpless desk that they are
> way underpaid..

It would also make money.
I and I believe many others, have often chosen (or not) products based on the
experience of myself and others with their support. 
	   WWNET
	   Palm
	   Linksys
	   Saturn

I have learned that good tech support is well correlated with good
reliability (and consequent lack of need for tech support).

My $0.02,
--
Dr. B.


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Jun 25 19:41:45 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:41:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] clueless tech support
In-Reply-To: <20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
	<20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <468052B9.7060001@comcast.net>

Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> It would also make money.

Penny wise, pound foolish.  The psychotic nature of American business.

You are right of course.  The practice of satisfying your customers will
produce more customers, the firm will profit.  However, the cost of
going from a customer indifferent or even customer hostile firm to a
customer caring firm will negatively impact the bottom line in the short
term.  You have to hire competent people who give a rat's ass about your
jobs and your customers.  Those do not come at the lowest rates for labor.

And as we well know, what firm makes long term plans any more?

It is very frustrating to find that you know more about the subject than
the person you are talking to on the phone that is suppose to be helping
you.  Alas, for anyone that plays with IT to any degree the possibility
that you will encounter just that situation is great.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From jvartanian at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 20:43:23 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:43:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] Charter Communications clueless tech
	support
In-Reply-To: <20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>
	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
	<20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <dd889b430706251743o21efc96cqb40d9d44a84dce25@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/24/07, Dr. Robert J. Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> Garry,
>
> >> I made this offer several score times, and never yet been taken up on it.
> > That would cost money and might teach the helpless desk that they are
> > way underpaid..
>
> It would also make money.
> I and I believe many others, have often chosen (or not) products based on the
> experience of myself and others with their support.
>            WWNET
>            Palm
>            Linksys
>            Saturn
>
> I have learned that good tech support is well correlated with good
> reliability (and consequent lack of need for tech support).
>

I don't know if that is always true.  For example, I used to be with
T-mobile for my cellular service.  The reliability of their network
was horrible, but their technical support people were always extremely
helpful.  Now I'm with Verizon and their network is outstanding, but
their technical support people have the IQ of a lima bean.

-Joseph


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Jun 25 19:22:09 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:22:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] clueless tech support
In-Reply-To: <468052B9.7060001@comcast.net> (message from Garry Stahl on Mon, 
	25 Jun 2007 19:41:45 -0400)
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
	<20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
	<468052B9.7060001@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070625232209.889AD20AAE4@starfox.local>

Garry,

> Penny wise, pound foolish.  The psychotic nature of American business.

> You are right of course.  The practice of satisfying your customers will
> produce more customers, the firm will profit.  ...  You have to hire
> competent people who give a rat's ass about your jobs and your customers.
> Those do not come at the lowest rates for labor.

What American firm is still making a profit?

Whether or not corportations make a profit, their managers make lots of money.
Even when an Enron, Kmart, Jefferson (LA), Cunningham (CA), Ney (OH), ...
scandal occurs, there is no punishment imposed

> And as we well know, what firm makes long term plans any more?

How do we reverse this?

NC law used to provide that criminal penalties must be at least enough
that the crime was unprofitable, but today federal penalty caps, set
decades ago, grant the rich immunity for their crimes.

--
Bob




From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Tue Jun 26 07:01:02 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:01:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] Charter Communications clueless
	tech	support
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430706251743o21efc96cqb40d9d44a84dce25@mail.gmail.com>
	(jvartanian@gmail.com)
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>
	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
	<20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
	<dd889b430706251743o21efc96cqb40d9d44a84dce25@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070626110102.6C8AE20AAE4@starfox.local>

Joseph,

>> I have learned that good tech support is well correlated with good
>> reliability (and consequent lack of need for tech support).

> I don't know if that is always true.  ...

There are exceptions.  "well correlated" means the rule holds more often
than exceptions appear.  In my experience the above rules holds about
4 times for each exception.
--
Dr. B


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Jun 27 09:19:00 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:19:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] MDLUG usage reminder
Message-ID: <468263C4.mailJ5I1ZRV4M@freehold.wwnet.com>

This is the monthly reminder of
     mdlug List Guidelines.
Please send comments to eaglecoach at wwnet.com
Meetings are monthly (http://www.mdlug.org/meetings/meetings.html).

*Courtesy:*
Do unto others what you would have them do unto you in their place.

See /Emily Postnews/ (http://www.templetons.com/brad/emily.html) and
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If you find something objectionable or off-topic, please send a courteous
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                assume the questioner has read the man/info/... pages
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 mdlug-discuss  politics
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*Filtering and Security*
If you lack time or interest to follow some of the topics, ask
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Likewise, our archiving software quashes email addresses in the body of
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 posting personal email addresses.

Have fun!


From wolfger at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 05:32:32 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 05:32:32 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: [mdlug]
	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705311915j30e631dclae8180e67ddef09d@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>

On 5/31/07, allen <amajorov at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Wolfger wrote:
> > I think you're confusing economic systems with something else...
> >
> Naw, I think the distinction between economic systems and governmental
> systems inaccurately describes either. Capitalism requires certain
> features of society that are most commonly found in a democracy or a
> reasonable facsimile; rule of law, property rights, equality before the
> law. There are others but it's getting late and I'm tired.
>
> Authoritarian regimes of all stripes - monarchies, communism, fascism
> and any other "isms" - are inherently inimical to capitalism since
> capitalism requires a number of freedoms and legal guarantees.

I'll grant you, for the moment, that capitalism requires some form of
democracy to survive (I don't know of any country that has a true
democracy, or unfettered capitalism, but that's a side argument). That
does nothing, however to explain why you think socialism (which can
also exist under a democracy) is more dangerous.

> If you think a sweat shop is tough try the agricultural sector some
> time. Even now, here in America with all the latest technology and
> labor-saving gadgetry, it's still a tough way to make a living. It
> becomes progressively tougher the more primitive the agricultural
> technology in use until you get to subsistence farming.

Thanks for helping me with my point! Capitalism drives agriculture to
ridiculous standards, so that the small-time farmers have difficulty
surviving.
Oh, and then there's the government subsidies (socialism) that are
designed to keep farms afloat...

> Oddly enough, the more socialism a nation embraces the less betterment
> it seems to enjoy. If you've got an example or two of the success of
> socialism's strivings feel free to provide them.

Well as I said previously, the problem with socialism is human nature.
Since we can't seem to remove that element, socialism fails.
Likewise capitalism also fails. That's why, in the best nation on
earth, you see a mixture of capitalistic and socialistic practices.

> > Which is why the gap between the wealthy and the poor is widening?
> >
> Would that be the poor who own their own homes with central heating and
> air conditioning, cable TV, their own cars and have, as their number one
> health problem, obesity? If that's the poor to whom you're referring
> then they seem to be doing progressively better as that income gap gets
> wider.

Yes, those are the poor that I'm referring to, who are currently
seeing a huge rise in home foreclosures, who are losing their jobs to
overseas markets because it makes the best capitalistic sense to a
rich board of directors. While it's true that our poor have it much
better than the poor in some other companies, you are diverting the
argument. You called capitalism a "leveler", and it is NOT. For every
CEO who is "asked to leave" with a multi-million dollar separation
package, there are thousands of guys living paycheck-to-paycheck who
suddenly find themselves without paychecks. And it's the socialistic
practice of "unemployment insurance" that keeps them from starving.

> > So capitalism leaves room for a person changing his social standing
> > for better or for worse, I agree. I don't see how that levels anything
> > when mostly the rich get richer and the poor stay poor. Each biography
> > is offset by thousands of failures.
> >
> As opposed to socialist nations in which there aren't any of those
> inspiring stories because there's no social movement?

I'll remind you again that I didn't start this by saying "socialism is
the best!" I started this by saying that socialism and capitalism are
fairly equally bad ideas. You keep trying to put  capitalism up on a
pedestal, and I'm just trying to bring you back to reality.

> > Ha! Well, I think we'll be waiting a while to see who gets the
> > position. Unfortunately, it's looking like Bill Gates.
> >
> Bill Gates? I don't think so.
>
> Touch base with younger techies, the ones in their twenties or less. I
> don't know whether they've quite come to the point of viewing
> Microsoft-bashing as a quaint anachronism, like high-button shoes and
> cell phones so big you can't lose them in a pocket, but he hardly stands
> astride the tech world the way he did in the distant past of, oh, six or
> seven years ago.

"Tech world", nothing. Try "real world". I believe Bill's still one of
the top 5 richest (i.e. most powerful) people in the world. He's
currently got little-to-no standing in the tech world, but that's
irrelevant.

-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jun  1 22:26:12 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 22:26:12 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705311915j30e631dclae8180e67ddef09d@mail.gmail.com>	<465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>

Wolfger wrote:
>
> I'll grant you, for the moment, that capitalism requires some form of
> democracy to survive (I don't know of any country that has a true
> democracy, or unfettered capitalism, but that's a side argument). That
> does nothing, however to explain why you think socialism (which can
> also exist under a democracy) is more dangerous.
>
>   
Socialism converts private ownership into common ownership, into a 
commons. Where there's a commons there's always a tragedy of the 
commons. It's that pesky human nature. The answer to the tragedy of the 
commons is inevitably commons cops; people whose job it is to prevent 
the tragedy of the commons.

Unfortunately, the labor pool you have to draw from when looking for 
those cops of the commons is plain, old human beings. Plain, old human 
beings complete with the same sorts of self-interest as every other 
human being except that these human beings are in charge of the commons, 
a valuable enough resource to require policing to prevent the tragedy of.

Now you've got a two-tiered society - those in charge of the commons and 
those not. Want to guess the likelihood of the former finding all sorts 
of justifications for hanging onto their power over the latter?
> Thanks for helping me with my point! Capitalism drives agriculture to
> ridiculous standards, so that the small-time farmers have difficulty
> surviving.
> Oh, and then there's the government subsidies (socialism) that are
> designed to keep farms afloat...
>
>   
"Drives agriculture to ridiculous standards"? Is that something like 
being too rich, too lucky or too pretty? Would that I had those burdens 
to bear.

The flip side to "small-time farmers have(ing) difficulty surviving" is 
the relentless drop in the price of food in the face of ever greater 
demand while variety and quality increase. I may feel some sympathy for 
the suffering of people losing their farms but the continual drop in the 
percentage of the populace in the agricultural sector means that it's 
only going to get tougher.

If you think you've got the stuff to be part of the diminishing number 
who can survive, go for it. But the odds are against you and no sympathy 
is due someone for making a bad bet and losing.
> Well as I said previously, the problem with socialism is human nature.
> Since we can't seem to remove that element, socialism fails.
> Likewise capitalism also fails. That's why, in the best nation on
> earth, you see a mixture of capitalistic and socialistic practices.
>
>   
Nope. Like I wrote before, socialism ignores and/or attempts to suppress 
human nature. Capitalism harnesses it.

The reason we have a mixture of socialism and capitalism is because 
socialism is long on cheap promises and there'll always be a market in 
cheap promises and people willing to serve that market.
> Yes, those are the poor that I'm referring to, who are currently
> seeing a huge rise in home foreclosures, who are losing their jobs to
> overseas markets because it makes the best capitalistic sense to a
> rich board of directors.
Decision time then. Do you erect trade barriers to "protect" those jobs, 
knowing where it'll take the entire nation, or do you not, knowing that 
the resulting efficiencies *always* end up benefiting the bulk of the 
populace?
>  While it's true that our poor have it much
> better than the poor in some other companies, you are diverting the
> argument. You called capitalism a "leveler", and it is NOT. 
Oh sure it is. No capitalism without democracy, remember?
> For every
> CEO who is "asked to leave" with a multi-million dollar separation
> package, there are thousands of guys living paycheck-to-paycheck who
> suddenly find themselves without paychecks. And it's the socialistic
> practice of "unemployment insurance" that keeps them from starving.
>   
And it's the capitalism that generates the wealth to fund unemployment 
insurance socialism.

By the way, check the record of starvation in socialist nations. Hunger 
is one area in which authoritarian nations always excel. But that's the 
way it is with a class-based society.
> I'll remind you again that I didn't start this by saying "socialism is
> the best!" I started this by saying that socialism and capitalism are
> fairly equally bad ideas. You keep trying to put  capitalism up on a
> pedestal, and I'm just trying to bring you back to reality.
>
>   
I'm not putting capitalism on a pedestal, I'm just pointing at the 
pedestal capitalism is already on and saying "there's the pedestal" and 
I'm quite firmly rooted in reality. The reality is, born out by the 
historical record and current events, that socialism inevitably results 
in poverty and often results in authoritarian tragedies. That hardly 
seems make the two ideas equally bad.
> "Tech world", nothing. Try "real world". I believe Bill's still one of
> the top 5 richest (i.e. most powerful) people in the world. He's
> currently got little-to-no standing in the tech world, but that's
> irrelevant
Bill Gates one of the most powerful people in the world? I wonder what 
would happen if he got busted for DUI a couple of times? We could ask 
Paris Hilton, when she gets out of the slam. She's pretty rich.

Allen


From wolfger at gmail.com  Fri Jun  1 22:43:21 2007
From: wolfger at gmail.com (Wolfger)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 22:43:21 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was: [mdlug]
	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705311915j30e631dclae8180e67ddef09d@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F90E5.4030707@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330706010232m58541812he49e72c5c6ec1a4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <3b00b3330706011943s6a3dca3n7b9fc7affd085830@mail.gmail.com>

> Bill Gates one of the most powerful people in the world? I wonder what
> would happen if he got busted for DUI a couple of times? We could ask
> Paris Hilton, when she gets out of the slam. She's pretty rich.

Paris Hilton was given a slap on the wrist for DUI (probation) and a
slightly harder slap on the wrist for violating probation. A sentence
which, by the way, was cut in half for "good behavior" before she even
started serving the sentence.
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/2007/05/17/wtf-what-happened-to-no-special-treatment/

...and she's not even a fraction of the wealth/power of Mr. Gates. If
you'll recall correctly, Bill's company was found guilty of some very
hefty charges here in the USA about... 7 years ago. To the best of my
knowledge the punishment was never administered at all.


-- 
Wolfger
http://wolfger.wordpress.com/
http://1fjordaroad.wordpress.com/
AOL IM: wolf4coyot
Yahoo!Messenger: wolfgersilberbaer
Skype: wolfger88


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Mon Jun  4 11:15:18 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 11:15:18 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <4660D544.6070101@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33DB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: allen

> Socialism converts private ownership into common ownership, into a 
> commons. Where there's a commons there's always a tragedy of the 
> commons.

 Just as a note, in software, where duplication and distribution is
(to a first approximation, at least) free, the commons can't be exhausted
and the tragedy doesn't arise. This is one of the reason open-source
software works so well.

 It's worth noting that if the same principles could be applied to
material objects, a lot of current economic models would break down.
One reason why things like 3D printers and nanotechnology could make
for interesting times in the future.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317

 "Look, you can't 'show' someone why the fish slapping dance is funny.
 A person either appreciates it, or not all, on a totally fundamental
   level and you can't change someone in that kind of way." - Nermal

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jun  4 15:10:13 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:10:13 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
 [Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33DB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33DB9@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>
Message-ID: <46646395.3080700@sbcglobal.net>

Ingles, Raymond wrote:
>> From: allen
>>     
>
>   
>> Socialism converts private ownership into common ownership, into a 
>> commons. Where there's a commons there's always a tragedy of the 
>> commons.
>>     
>
>  Just as a note, in software, where duplication and distribution is
> (to a first approximation, at least) free, the commons can't be exhausted
> and the tragedy doesn't arise. This is one of the reason open-source
> software works so well.
>   
And why, among people who don't quite understand it, engenders 
flinty-eyed suspicion.

Since open-source software has value - otherwise why would people use 
it? - and it's free, the not-unreasonable-assumption is that there's a 
catch. The suspicion generally revolves around the observation that that 
which is too good to be true, isn't, despite the best efforts of those 
selling the too-good-to-be-true commodity, i.e. socialism.

Of course, open-source software isn't free so much as it's so cheap 
that, for all practical purposes, it's free. Of the various components 
of cost in software it's the labor that's free.

Duplication and transportation costs are cheap enough to be considered, 
for all practical purposes, free although the distinction is worth 
keeping in mind. When computers and bandwidth were both much more 
expensive then they are now the cost of duplicating/moving a given 
volume of bits was worthy of consideration. But between Moore's law and 
the communication bandwidth analog of Moore's law, both those costs have 
dropped faster then our utilization has increased.

That's not to say the trend will necessarily continue or won't, at 
least, be temporarily reversed but over any reasonable period of time, 
just like almost every other commodity, the price of 
computation/communications will continue to decline.
>  It's worth noting that if the same principles could be applied to
> material objects, a lot of current economic models would break down.
> One reason why things like 3D printers and nanotechnology could make
> for interesting times in the future.
>
>   
It's not so much "if" but "how fast" and "how far".

The history of economic progress can be summed up as "making stuff 
cheaper" although I'm not certain that "free" and "lot's cheaper" are 
interchangeable. Also, I'm less certain then you that the arrival of the 
messiah, i.e. when material objects become free, will necessarily result 
in the "kid in the candy shop" future you anticipate.

Allen's Law (Allen's Law? Yes, why not?) of Conservation of Agony states 
that any decrease in pain is offset by an increase in pain, usually in 
an unanticipated area, so that agony is conserved. Examples are ubiquitous.

Decreases in travel time are offset by increases in the time needed to 
get to the point of departure, or, once embarked, result in inescapable 
proximity to cologne addicts or crying children. Cheaper food of greater 
variety and healthfulness results in food becoming a form of 
entertainment as well as an agent of social stratification, i.e. organic 
food versus the *other* kind, organic food-eaters versus 
Cheeto's-eaters. Cheaper communication propels an entertainment industry 
that gives scope to aspects of human nature less savory then even 
politics does.

I'd better stop. I'm starting to frighten myself with thoughts of a 
horrifyingly utopian future of peace, plenty and tranquility, populated 
by people with perfect teeth, bodies and psyches, with all the hair they 
want where they want it and none where they don't.

Allen


From Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com  Tue Jun  5 12:36:04 2007
From: Raymond.Ingles at compuware.com (Ingles, Raymond)
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 12:36:04 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy
	[Was:	[mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <46646395.3080700@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33DBF@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>


> From: allen

> >  Just as a note, in software, where duplication and distribution is
> > (to a first approximation, at least) free, the commons 
> can't be exhausted
> > and the tragedy doesn't arise. This is one of the reason open-source
> > software works so well.
> >   
> And why, among people who don't quite understand it, engenders 
> flinty-eyed suspicion.

 Yes, that's why education about how it actually works is so important.

> Of course, open-source software isn't free so much as it's so cheap 
> that, for all practical purposes, it's free. Of the various 
> components of cost in software it's the labor that's free.

 Actually, it's the labor that costs, but not necessarily in money.

> >  It's worth noting that if the same principles could be applied to
> > material objects, a lot of current economic models would break down.
> > One reason why things like 3D printers and nanotechnology could make
> > for interesting times in the future.

> Also, I'm less certain then you that the arrival of the messiah, i.e.
> when material objects become free, will necessarily result 
> in the "kid in the candy shop" future you anticipate.

 Um... have you ever heard of the proverbial Chinese curse, "May you live
in interesting times"? I didn't say there'd be pie in the sky by and by.
I said there would be "interesting times".

 I figure one of the very possible results of such an economic upheaval
could be a big war. And so one of the reasons why I push for space travel
is so that there's a good chance of spreading our eggs into more baskets
than just Earth.

 Such a war is not guaranteed, of course. But it's worth planning options
just in case.

> Allen's Law (Allen's Law? Yes, why not?) of Conservation of Agony states 
> that any decrease in pain is offset by an increase in pain, usually in 
> an unanticipated area, so that agony is conserved. Examples are ubiquitous.

 I'd dispute that rather strongly. For example:
 http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html

> Decreases in travel time are offset by increases in the time needed to 
> get to the point of departure, or, once embarked, result in inescapable 
> proximity to cologne addicts or crying children.

 Different issue entirely. Google the concept of a "happiness set point".

> I'd better stop. I'm starting to frighten myself with thoughts of a 
> horrifyingly utopian future of peace, plenty and tranquility, populated 
> by people with perfect teeth, bodies and psyches, with all the hair they 
> want where they want it and none where they don't.

 So long as there are humans that *are* human in any meaningful sense, there
won't be a 'utopia'. But that Pinker article above nevertheless gives hope
for the future.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                (313) 227-2317
 
 "Una saus victus nullam sperare salutem." - The one hope
       of the damned is not to hope for safety.

The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it. 


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Tue Jun  5 18:42:52 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Tue,  5 Jun 2007 18:42:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net> (message from allen on Thu, 31
	May 2007 18:53:12 -0400)
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>
	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>
	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <20070605224252.5B18220AA59@starfox.local>

Allen,

> Greed and ruthlessness don't go away in a workers paradise, they get 
> driven underground there to rot out the foundations of the society.

> Capitalism takes those lemons and makes lemonade out of them and in so 
> doing achieves what socialists claim but never demonstrate: a classless 
> society.

Capitalism turns lemons to lemonade only by enforcement of just (and
classless) laws.  (See "Wealth of Nations").

Unbridled (i.e. unencumbered by enforced law) greed was the cause of the
Great Depression of the 1930s, and will no doubt be named by the historians
of the future as the cause of our troubles since the '87 stock crash.

My opinions,

Bob





From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jun  6 11:59:58 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:59:58 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Ethanol vs gasoline economy [Was:
 [mdlug]	Automotive technical info ...]
In-Reply-To: <20070605224252.5B18220AA59@starfox.local>
References: <41C33488FEC67C43BC564F5F086C21FF03A33D9F@nasa-dtw-ex001.nasa.cpwr.corp>	<465EC9D7.8060704@sbcglobal.net>	<3b00b3330705310700j289b2639g485010bc2c9d2356@mail.gmail.com>	<465F51D8.3090302@sbcglobal.net>
	<20070605224252.5B18220AA59@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <4666D9FE.4060400@sbcglobal.net>

Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> Allen,
>
>   
>> Greed and ruthlessness don't go away in a workers paradise, they get 
>> driven underground there to rot out the foundations of the society.
>>     
>
>   
>> Capitalism takes those lemons and makes lemonade out of them and in so 
>> doing achieves what socialists claim but never demonstrate: a classless 
>> society.
>>     
>
> Capitalism turns lemons to lemonade only by enforcement of just (and
> classless) laws.  (See "Wealth of Nations").
>   
It might even be that capitalism springs from the legal prerequisites - 
rule of law, equality before the law and enforceable property rights - 
regardless of the governmental form. A monarchy with those legal 
characteristics would, I think, inevitably give rise to a vigorous and 
successful capitalist economy. Probably because in those important 
regards it presents a legal system that's more likely to be found in a 
democratic nation but not exclusively.

Still, a monarchy isn't the most comfortable fit for a capitalist 
economy. Too much likelihood of the legal landscape changing 
dramatically with a succession or revolution.
> Unbridled (i.e. unencumbered by enforced law) greed was the cause of the
> Great Depression of the 1930s, and will no doubt be named by the historians
> of the future as the cause of our troubles since the '87 stock crash.
>   
 From what I've read, the Great Depression was, in part, a result of 
unbridled greed at the national level.

Tariff wars and competitive devaluations disordered international trade 
to the point that it almost ground to a halt with the attendant domestic 
repercussions. I understand that monetary policy, at least in the U.S., 
had a hand in deepening the depression and social policies in prolonging 
the depression.

One of the few good things to come out of the Great Depression was a 
lesson that's compelling to this day. The desire to use trade policy to 
support domestic politics, i.e. farm subsidies, manufactured goods 
tariffs, etc., is counterbalanced to an extent by the lesson of the 
Great Depression.

Allen


From radkins at impelind.com  Thu Jun  7 13:47:42 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 13:47:42 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] "Why DRM won't ever work"
Message-ID: <466844BE.8070606@impelind.com>

<http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6189011.html?tag=nl.e550>

It's an interesting commentary that touches very briefly on something we 
have discussed here recently.

-Rob



From amajorov at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jun  7 14:56:52 2007
From: amajorov at sbcglobal.net (allen)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:56:52 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] "Why DRM won't ever work"
In-Reply-To: <466844BE.8070606@impelind.com>
References: <466844BE.8070606@impelind.com>
Message-ID: <466854F4.6010901@sbcglobal.net>

Robert Adkins wrote:
> <http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6189011.html?tag=nl.e550>
>
> It's an interesting commentary that touches very briefly on something we 
> have discussed here recently.
>
> -Rob
>   
I just wish the entire issue would reach its crashing crescendo so we 
could move on.

It's not like this is a new issue. For everyone of an age there's Bill 
Gate's weepy complaint about all the mean pirates who wouldn't let a 
poor but honest lad from Seattle earn tupence.

He survived and without a reliable means of preventing copying. He just 
had to accept what he couldn't change and make the best of it. On the 
evidence of his eleven figure net worth I'd say he found a way to make 
the best of it.

Of course the stakes are a bit higher now then they were back then, the 
microcomputer software business when Bill made his plea was penny-ante 
stuff compared to the intellectual property industry of today so the IP 
holders have access to options big Bill didn't.

But the basics haven't changed.

Copying bits is as easy - easier - now and the only way to try to 
prevent people from copying those bits is to make it artificially more 
difficult. The IP holders have had some success in enlisting the power 
of government to require adding technology to make copying artificially 
difficult but sooner or later they'll start to get push-back from the 
folks that are needed to give DRM a breath of a chance: the hardware 
manufacturers.

I'm sure TI or Intel would be happy to add DRM features to their 
hardware if they had some reason to think it would make their hardware 
more valuable but it doesn't. DRM modifications make the hardware more 
valuable to IP holders only. To the hardware makers it's just a cost and 
they won't add it until it generates a profit or until they're forced.

DRM'll never generate a profit for hardware makers and since the IP 
holders don't have enough money to buy off the hardware makers they have 
to try to force them to comply via law passed at the behest of the IP 
holders. Of course, the IP holders aren't the only folks who can hire 
lobbyists and once the law passed to suit the IP holders starts to 
pinch, the hardware makers will start complaining and spreading around 
lobbying funds. That ought to bring further legislative remedies to a 
halt and the IP holders will have to make due with the law they've 
gotten passed so far.

That'll cost the IP holders money, as the suits the RIAA has brought 
show but won't add a nickel to their bottom line. Sooner or later the 
adults will intervene and the boards of directors will want to know when 
all the funds going out to buy lobbyists and bad publicity will start to 
turn a profit. Since the answer is "never", they'll pull the plug and, 
taking a page from the Gates play book, will figure out how to earn an 
honest buck without having the luxury of owning the printing presses, 
record presses and film labs.

I just wish they'd get started.

Allen












From tesral at comcast.net  Wed Jun 13 01:11:57 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 01:11:57 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] "Mr. Wizard" dead at 90.
Message-ID: <466F7C9D.8070106@comcast.net>

The world will be a less interesting place.

http://www.mrwizardstudios.com/

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From radkins at impelind.com  Wed Jun 13 08:17:01 2007
From: radkins at impelind.com (Robert Adkins)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:17:01 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] "Mr. Wizard" dead at 90.
In-Reply-To: <466F7C9D.8070106@comcast.net>
References: <466F7C9D.8070106@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <466FE03D.5080909@impelind.com>

Garry Stahl wrote:
> The world will be a less interesting place.
>
> http://www.mrwizardstudios.com/
>
>   
    I used to watch him on Nickelodeon when I was a kid.

    It's good that he's no longer suffering. Bone Cancer is one of, if 
not the most, painful forms of cancer, even near deadly amounts of 
morphine can barely dull the pain. No person should ever have to go 
through that.

    -Rob


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Fri Jun 15 07:10:32 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 07:10:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Luke Alexander Ingles
Message-ID: <20070615111032.7FAA520AA5C@starfox.local>

"Our fourth son was born Tuesday, June 12th, at 12:13pm.
 He weighed eight pounds even, 20.5 inches long.
 Mother and child are doing fine."

			       Welcome to Earth
Please take time to enjoy the many attractions and features during your stay,
	      but remember that others want to enjoy them also.
		    Each guest has been loaned a vehicle.
	    Informal classes on its care and use run continuously.
	 Yours comes equipped with two eyes, two ears, and two arms.
	   Please be careful when operating around other vehicles,
		 as replacements are not generally available.
		 Maid service, food preparation, decoration,
	  and other services are performed by a staff of trillions.
		      The Management is always listening
and would appreciate your help in making this a wonderful place for everyone.
			    Have a pleasant stay.
			-- Robert J. Meier, Jr. (1995)



From gib at juno.com  Fri Jun 15 15:23:02 2007
From: gib at juno.com (gib at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:23:02 GMT
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] Luke Alexander Ingles
Message-ID: <20070615.152302.10380.2@webmail24.lax.untd.com>

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From tesral at comcast.net  Sun Jun 24 14:01:05 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 14:01:05 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] Charter Communications clueless tech
	support
In-Reply-To: <20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>
	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>

Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> I made this offer several score times, and never yet been taken up on it.
>   
That would cost money and might teach the helpless desk that they are
way underpaid..


-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Sun Jun 24 20:58:54 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 20:58:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] Charter Communications clueless
	tech	support
In-Reply-To: <467EB161.6010603@comcast.net> (message from Garry Stahl on Sun, 
	24 Jun 2007 14:01:05 -0400)
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>
	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>

Garry,

>> I made this offer several score times, and never yet been taken up on it.
> That would cost money and might teach the helpless desk that they are
> way underpaid..

It would also make money.
I and I believe many others, have often chosen (or not) products based on the
experience of myself and others with their support. 
	   WWNET
	   Palm
	   Linksys
	   Saturn

I have learned that good tech support is well correlated with good
reliability (and consequent lack of need for tech support).

My $0.02,
--
Dr. B.


From tesral at comcast.net  Mon Jun 25 19:41:45 2007
From: tesral at comcast.net (Garry Stahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:41:45 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] clueless tech support
In-Reply-To: <20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
	<20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <468052B9.7060001@comcast.net>

Dr. Robert J. Meier wrote:
> It would also make money.

Penny wise, pound foolish.  The psychotic nature of American business.

You are right of course.  The practice of satisfying your customers will
produce more customers, the firm will profit.  However, the cost of
going from a customer indifferent or even customer hostile firm to a
customer caring firm will negatively impact the bottom line in the short
term.  You have to hire competent people who give a rat's ass about your
jobs and your customers.  Those do not come at the lowest rates for labor.

And as we well know, what firm makes long term plans any more?

It is very frustrating to find that you know more about the subject than
the person you are talking to on the phone that is suppose to be helping
you.  Alas, for anyone that plays with IT to any degree the possibility
that you will encounter just that situation is great.

-- 
Garry  AKA  --Phoenix--  Rising above the Flames.

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Star Trek mort. Viva la Star Trek admiraetur
The Olde Phoenix Inn Http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com



From jvartanian at gmail.com  Mon Jun 25 20:43:23 2007
From: jvartanian at gmail.com (Joseph Vartanian)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:43:23 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] Charter Communications clueless tech
	support
In-Reply-To: <20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>
	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
	<20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
Message-ID: <dd889b430706251743o21efc96cqb40d9d44a84dce25@mail.gmail.com>

On 6/24/07, Dr. Robert J. Meier <eaglecoach at wwnet.com> wrote:
> Garry,
>
> >> I made this offer several score times, and never yet been taken up on it.
> > That would cost money and might teach the helpless desk that they are
> > way underpaid..
>
> It would also make money.
> I and I believe many others, have often chosen (or not) products based on the
> experience of myself and others with their support.
>            WWNET
>            Palm
>            Linksys
>            Saturn
>
> I have learned that good tech support is well correlated with good
> reliability (and consequent lack of need for tech support).
>

I don't know if that is always true.  For example, I used to be with
T-mobile for my cellular service.  The reliability of their network
was horrible, but their technical support people were always extremely
helpful.  Now I'm with Verizon and their network is outstanding, but
their technical support people have the IQ of a lima bean.

-Joseph


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Mon Jun 25 19:22:09 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 19:22:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] clueless tech support
In-Reply-To: <468052B9.7060001@comcast.net> (message from Garry Stahl on Mon, 
	25 Jun 2007 19:41:45 -0400)
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
	<20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
	<468052B9.7060001@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070625232209.889AD20AAE4@starfox.local>

Garry,

> Penny wise, pound foolish.  The psychotic nature of American business.

> You are right of course.  The practice of satisfying your customers will
> produce more customers, the firm will profit.  ...  You have to hire
> competent people who give a rat's ass about your jobs and your customers.
> Those do not come at the lowest rates for labor.

What American firm is still making a profit?

Whether or not corportations make a profit, their managers make lots of money.
Even when an Enron, Kmart, Jefferson (LA), Cunningham (CA), Ney (OH), ...
scandal occurs, there is no punishment imposed

> And as we well know, what firm makes long term plans any more?

How do we reverse this?

NC law used to provide that criminal penalties must be at least enough
that the crime was unprofitable, but today federal penalty caps, set
decades ago, grant the rich immunity for their crimes.

--
Bob




From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Tue Jun 26 07:01:02 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Dr. Robert J. Meier)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:01:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] Charter Communications clueless
	tech	support
In-Reply-To: <dd889b430706251743o21efc96cqb40d9d44a84dce25@mail.gmail.com>
	(jvartanian@gmail.com)
References: <b02c40e90706231657t7a0751bbwa400850969305581@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070624005914.0715c42b@tessa.long>
	<20070624154527.DF4B920AAE2@starfox.local>
	<467EB161.6010603@comcast.net>
	<20070625005854.7C22120AAE5@starfox.local>
	<dd889b430706251743o21efc96cqb40d9d44a84dce25@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070626110102.6C8AE20AAE4@starfox.local>

Joseph,

>> I have learned that good tech support is well correlated with good
>> reliability (and consequent lack of need for tech support).

> I don't know if that is always true.  ...

There are exceptions.  "well correlated" means the rule holds more often
than exceptions appear.  In my experience the above rules holds about
4 times for each exception.
--
Dr. B


From eaglecoach at wwnet.com  Wed Jun 27 09:19:00 2007
From: eaglecoach at wwnet.com (Robert Meier)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:19:00 -0400
Subject: [mdlug-discuss] MDLUG usage reminder
Message-ID: <468263C4.mailJ5I1ZRV4M@freehold.wwnet.com>

This is the monthly reminder of
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